← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Megyn Kelly on Epstein, MAGA Fury, the Loyalty Test Trump Didn’t Expect, Plus the End of the Elites
01:03:30
Today, Mark Halperin sits down exclusively with Megyn Kelly for a deep dive on Epstein, why the scandal hits Trump’s base in a uniquely personal way, and why it’s not the political deal breaker the left might hope. Megyn reveals the unanswered questions that still matter to MAGA, why firing Comey’s daughter isn't the "scalp" that will satisfy the need for accountability, and why Pam Bondi might be the story's next casualty. She also explains why this may be the closest Trump has come to his “shoot someone on Fifth Avenue” moment. Done with Debt: https://www.DoneWithDebt.com American Financing: Call American Financing today to find out how customers are saving an avg of $800/mo. 866-886-2026 or visit http://www.AmericanFinancing.net/Next . NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org Paleo Valley: Visit https://paleovalley.com and use code NEXTUP at checkout to get 15% off your first order Then, Mark’s report on how Jeffrey Epstein came to embody the populist revolt against elite power an...
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- [00:01]
Mark Halperin
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- [00:28]
Megyn Kelly
Foreign.
- [00:33]
Mark Halperin
Welcome in Nexters. I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief at two Way and your guide to everything. Next up. Very glad to have you here in this summer day in July when it's not much news going on in the world. There's some stuff, but the main focus in, in my world and in in most of the news you see is what our focus is today, which is the Jeffrey Epstein story. It's an incredibly interesting and important story and it speaks to a lot of different things. And I couldn't be more excited and delighted to have Megyn Kelly here on this episode, host of the Megan Kelly show, an AM update on Sirius xm. And of course with her program, you can find it on YouTube and all podcast platforms. And she, of course, the fairy godmother of this show. Megan and I are going to talk about the whole, the whole thing, where we are now, why the president's doing what he's doing, what might happen next. And I'll be curious to see what Megan has to say about the trajectory of this story going forward. And she is as shrewd and knowledgeable as anyone about what's happening both behind the scenes in Washington but also around the country, and the tension between President Trump, who wants this story to go away and has said to his supporters this week, you're not basically, you're not my supporters if you don't, if you don't move beyond the story and the people out in the country who Megan and Charlie Kirk and others who have programs hear from every day overwhelmingly saying we need answers, we need more stuff out there. Will Maxwell testify? Will the administration put out more material as Lara Trump and others have suggested? Megan and I will talk about all of that. And then in my reported monologue, a story that I think is the context of the Epstein story, but bigger than the Epstein story, which is why is there so much passion about this amongst young people, amongst people in maga, amongst some well meaning Democrats who aren't now entering this fray just for politics in Some cases. Why do people feel so strong? For me, it has to do with the loss of faith in institutions in this country and the reality that for too long, going back to Watergate, Vietnam is a through line through today, elites win and everybody else loses. Everybody else gets the short end of the stick. How can we live in an America where we can have faith in our big institutions, belief that they're doing the right thing and belief that they're not protecting elites at the expense of everybody else, in this case, at the expense in this view of the truth, but also of the victims of the young women and girls who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein and were part of his creation of this extraordinary world where he, he hobnobbed with the rich, the powerful, monarchs, kings, business CEOs. Such an important story to understand and amazing given how long it's been in the news, how little we really know. And that's what people want. They want to know the truth. And so I'm going to walk you through the history of what's happened in America that has led to this moment where people aren't willing, at least not right now, to kind of slough this off, to say, ah, this is another time when the elites are going to win, when the American people won't know the truth. There are tens of millions of people in this country who are not prepared to let the elites win this time. And they, they're asking for something simple. They just want to know the facts. They want to know what the government knows. Now, there are times when the government, like with national security, government needs to know more. But, but in this case, the American people are saying whatever the rules are, whatever rules you elites have made up for protecting the rich and powerful, for protecting accusers, for protecting victims, in this case, at this watershed moment for so many, we can't play by the normal rules, particularly those rules that were designed by the elites and for the elites. I'll lay that out for you and as always, again, want to hear what you nexters think about it. Grateful to you for being part of the ride here. And for those of you who aren't interested in this topic of Jeffrey Epstein, I'd urge you to stay and hear because I'm going to lay out for you the reality of why this is not a story about Jeffrey Epstein. It's a story about where we are and how America has lost its way over the last several decades and how we can find our way back to trust and credibility. So my monologue in a little bit, but next up, Megyn Kelly and my conversation with her about the whole Epstein story story, what we're both hearing and what Megan forecasts is coming next up. It's sad but true for so many. The American dream has changed. Forget the white picket fence. For most Americans, the real dream now is simply getting out of debt. If you're feeling the pressure from rising prices, mounting credit card debt, and just trying to stay afloat, there's one thing you should know. There is a way out. Done with debt. They've got just one goal. Break you free from debt permanently. 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Joining me now, the person literally on planet Earth I'd most like to talk to about everything, Epstein, Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show and am update on Sirius XM, YouTube, and pretty much everywhere you get your podcasts, unless she's banned from some obscure Russian or Chinese platform. Megan, thank you for making yourself available amidst this, all of this.
- [06:26]
Charlie Kirk
My pleasure.
- [06:28]
Mark Halperin
Some people are saying this. The president is in the midst of a. Of an unprecedented political firestorm. Other people tell me this will be all over by the weekend. Where are you on that scale?
- [06:39]
Charlie Kirk
B, I'm on the second one.
- [06:41]
Mark Halperin
That it's fading away.
- [06:43]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah. And that it will continue to fade and that it won't really hurt Trump. I think people are angry. There's no question. And I hear about him. I see it in the comments of my show, YouTube and elsewhere every day. They're very, very angry. They do not appreciate the comments he's making about, you know, his base being weaklings and bad people, if they care about the Epstein story, which involves abuse of young girls. But I think they'll forgive him because he's just putting too many points on the board in other ways. And also, what's the alternative? So I think they'll get past it and I think it'll Be relatively quickly.
- [07:16]
Mark Halperin
Do you think that his using phrases like weaklings and calling people his past supporters is a sign of agitation or concern or just the normal tactical move that he thinks will somehow lead in a linear way to snuffing it out as a story?
- [07:30]
Charlie Kirk
No, I think he's genuinely annoyed. I think he is. He doesn't want this story out there. He's clearly over Epstein for whatever reasons. We don't know the reasons. And he really wants people to stop talking about it, and they won't. And he's used to being able to control his base better than this. And so, like a parent fed up with a difficult child, he's expressing his consternation about the child. You know, like, you're bad, you're bad, you're weak, and the child doesn't stop loving the parent, to continue this analogy. But the child may be a little, you know, irritated and hurt. I do think it was kind of smart of Trump to say, like, everyone, you know, like all these. All these people who say this, you're all my past supporters. Because now he's got every supporter in media and in civilian life thinking, is it me? Is it me? Is it me? And it's sort of a way of controlling them into sort of getting back in line. And I don't know that they're going to on Epstein. I really don't. But I think, like I said at the top, they'll forgive him.
- [08:26]
Mark Halperin
All right, based on your. I want to talk about. About the motivations of other actors here, the people around the president, Congressional republic, and then people who have programs who keep talking about it, who are traditionally allies of the president. But first, I want to run through some theories that I hear, and based on your knowledge of the president and any reporting you have, your thoughts on these, and I'll say it takes a lot to be a good analyst of this situation. You have to understand Donald Trump. You have to understand the underlying mood in the country. You have to understand maga. And again, you're one of the few people who I say has PhDs and all those things. So first, some people say the president's upset because there's something in there about himself or his family or his friends that he doesn't wanna come out. What do you credit that theory?
- [09:13]
Charlie Kirk
I don't rule it out because he knew Jeffrey Epstein for 15 years. They were very close friends. And so there could be something in there that Trump doesn't like. I don't think it's something devastating because I'm of the mind that it would have been released by a prior president, namely Joe Biden or his vice president when they were running against Trump, if they knew they had that kind of silver bullet against him. They tried to put him in jail over falsified business records regarding Stormy Daniels. Why wouldn't they have dug up some photo of him with a 14 year old? Like that's just not plausible. So I don't rule out that there could be something that Trump doesn't like and really isn't looking forward to seeing hitting the news and that there could be a friend of Trump's or two in there for whom he has the same concern. But I don't think there's some smoking gun in there.
- [09:56]
Mark Halperin
All right, number two, I want to run by relates to what you referenced, which is we all say and know they had a quote, unquote, long relationship. But I at least don't know, you know, how often did they go to each other's homes? Were they ever together outside their homes? What did they have the business relationship at all? I don't know the answers to any of those. There's a rumor in my world, and I'm sure it's come to your, your, your inbox too, that a major newspaper is about to write us, publish a story chronicling the details of their relationship. Do you know anything about that? And, and do you know anything about when we say they had a close relationship? What were the contours of it?
- [10:31]
Charlie Kirk
Well, my information is from reporter Vicki Ward, who's been all over Epstein from the beginning. She had the fact that he was a sexual predator back in 2003 and graded Carter at Vanity Fair, spiked that piece of her Epstein, Epstein profile. And she had spent a lot of time with Epstein in preparing that thing. And then also Michael Wolf, who's got a checkered history when it comes to reporting on Trump in particular. But those two both say the same thing about Trump's relationship with Epstein, which is that it was very close for a number of years, in particular thanks to the Palm beach connection and that they did spend time together at Epstein's home and outside of sort of the office. This is when Trump was just sort of, you know, still a, I don't know, a bon vivant businessman, man about town, no connection with politics. And Epstein knew everyone back then, too. I mean, he was literally hanging out with Bill Clinton and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and everyone in media and the presidents of MIT and Harvard. You know, if you knew, if you were anybody, you were hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein back Then in fact Vicky Ward had reporting that the reason maybe they broke up as friends was there was a property that was for sale and Epstein was going to bid on it was up in a bankruptcy proceeding and Epstein was going to bid on it. And he brought Trump over to the property to say how could I move the swimming pool? And, and Trump instead of helping him, threw in a higher bid at the bankruptcy proceeding, $5 million higher than Epstein's and that this was a source of consternation. There's another report that they the friendship ended because Epstein hit on the daughter, a young daughter, like a 14 year old daughter of a Mar A Lago resident or attendee and Trump was angry about it. So we don't know the truth, but they definitely did see each other outside of just any professional setting and they were by all accounts close Again, take it with a grain of salt. But Michael Wolf reported that in some ways, quote, they loved each other.
- [12:21]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, I don't, I'm not positing that the answers to the question of how much time do they spend together, et cetera, I'm not saying, I know that it's incriminating but, but we don't know the answer. NBC has a report that they re republished today. I believe they were published a year ago that Jeffrey Epstein brought an adult woman to Trump Tower and Donald Trump fondled her in front of Jeffrey Epstein. If that woman, again, hypothetical, as we gained this out, if there is such a. And she tells that story on camera, on the record, that to me seems would be, would be a way in which people's suspicions about their relationship might, might increase quite a bit.
- [12:58]
Charlie Kirk
I mean, yes and no. It's like yes, the left will run with that and say ah, ah. But I mean I think most of us on the right will say he's on camera saying he can grab women by the P word and they let you do it when you're a celebrity. So I think we're all kind of past the point of being shocked that the younger version of Donald Trump who ran the beauty pageants, et cetera, might have gotten handsy with some women. You know, I just don't think that's gonna move the needle.
- [13:21]
Mark Halperin
Okay, last one is yesterday, on Wednesday, Jim Comey's daughter, who's a member of the U.S. attorney's office in New York was fired. It's not clear why she was fired. Some people are speculating. Maybe this is an opportunity because she prosecuted the Maxwell case. Maybe this is an opportunity for her, for the, for the President's Team to say this whole thing was set up by com. By the Comeys. What do you think of that theory that that could be the reason she was fired would be to begin to lay the predicate for that argument.
- [13:52]
Charlie Kirk
That one I don't know about. I'm as mystified by the Maureen Comey firing as anyone. Because if you wanted to get rid of her, why wouldn't you have just done it in the initial fell swoop? A lot of DOJ attorneys have been fired. Many, many, many. Now granted, she was handling the Diddy case, so maybe they thought we can't do it during the Diddy case and she lost that case. Yes, she got a minor conviction, but that case was lost. But you did see, I mean, I saw it on my feed too during the course of that trial. Many, many, many, like die hard MAGA supporters don't trust her and believe like she's in on the Epstein fix and didn't believe that she would vigorously prosecute Diddy either. And so it could just be throwing the base a bone. But right now, like the timing of it doesn't make sense to me. So I don't know, question mark on that one.
- [14:38]
Mark Halperin
I said she did the Maxwell case. Did she do the Maxwell case or did she do the Epstein case or did she do both?
- [14:43]
Charlie Kirk
She actually, I don't think, I don't know the answer.
- [14:47]
Mark Halperin
I'm trying to remember. She did one of them. She's involved in the general topic. I want your view on this. I view Comey. If you took like the pantheon of MAGA villains like Comey's in the, in the hall of fame, right? Yes. So. So if the President hopes to tamp this down, if he needs to. If you're not right and this needs further tamping, being able to say the Comeys are behind this, Nothing could more quickly rally and intensely rally the MAGA base than the invocation of the name Comey. Correct.
- [15:17]
Charlie Kirk
Very true, very true. And you know, obviously he's already investigating Comey and you know that news broke last week.
- [15:22]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [15:23]
Charlie Kirk
So it's possible he's setting that up. I also think though, look, Mag is not dumb. I know that the left wing media wants to paint his die hard supporters just as like stupid sycophants.
- [15:34]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [15:35]
Charlie Kirk
I don't think they're going to chase any bone he throws. I really think that especially on Epstein, they, they really want genuine answers. It's going to go beyond like they can easily be appeased with a, with a Comey scalp. I think they need to disclose A lot more information. And I think there is a lot more information. I am not of the belief that there's nothing that can be disclosed, because you look at the two reporters who have covered this case more than any other, and that is Vicki Ward and Julie K. Brown, the latter of the Miami Herald. Vicki's been with Vanity Fair for a number of years and has published for many different outlets since. And they both say, yes, there is and would be a ton of information. Look back at when Epstein got that sweetheart deal in 2007, crossing over to 2008, when it was all put to bed. At that time, the government alleged in pleadings that it knew of 30 victims, which is probably way low. That was 30. Now they say it's 1,000. We know the names of, like, a few, maybe five. It's ridiculous. And we know the names of maybe five men who might have been caught up in the Epstein circle. That's. I mean, on its face, we haven't been told the full truth about what's gone on. Not to mention, where's the full investigation and reveal on Les Wexner, the guy who owned the Limited, and Victoria's Secret, whose money seems to have funded Jeffrey Epstein's exorbitant townhome. It wasn't a town. It was a huge mansion in Manhattan, among other things. There's just a lot of very big names that we haven't heard the full story on. And, okay, maybe we'll never get it, but you cannot tell me there aren't documents, FBI documents, court documents that delve more deeply into these people that are producible. That. And by the way, you know, Epstein's dead. That's another thing. So it's like, he's not defamable. Like, things about him should obviously be, be returned. Things about the accusers. Okay, if they're underage when they make the accusation, that's one thing. But adult accusers, There are some court documents that would. That would protect them, but not all of them. So I am of the belief that there is more to be released, and I think Mag is not going to chase the oh, James Comey bone without demanding to see the documents. I'll put one asterisk on it. If you're a true conspiracy theorist, and I don't use that term for the Epstein people who want answers about Epstein, but there's some faction in there that are just conspiracy theorists. You're never satisfied. And it is true that no matter what gets released, they will always believe that there's more. That's being hidden. And they will never accept that there wasn't a pedophile ring that's being covered up by the government. And so Trump's up against that, too, in large part because a lot of the people he has around him in the administration fanned those flames for many years.
- [18:16]
Mark Halperin
Right. Okay. So talk about disclosure. Lara Trump said, yes, there should, there should be and there will be more disclosure. The president even this week, as he's been attacking his supporters and demanding people stop covering the story, talking about it, said also like good, you know, proper disclosure should happen. Charlie Kirk and others have made good recommendations, very specific. These are the things, the steps you should take. Is it your understanding that's underway? And if so, shouldn't they, shouldn't they let people know it's coming or did they not plan to actually disclose?
- [18:46]
Charlie Kirk
Here's all we've heard. Lara Trump said more is coming. And Trump said Pam Bondi should disclose anything that, that's properly disclosable.
- [18:56]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [18:56]
Charlie Kirk
You know, that's not confidential, that's not protected. Well, Pam Bondi's already said she's disclosed everything that's disclosable. So, and then, you know, President Trump, while saying she should disclose anything that's disclosable, said everyone's a loser who has questions about this case. You know, you're a former supporter, you're a bad person.
- [19:17]
Mark Halperin
So is more coming or not?
- [19:19]
Charlie Kirk
I don't know. I don't know. I will tell you this. My sources inside the government say that the reason Dan Bongino stayed is because he was made a promise that something more is going to happen, that she's either going to disclose more or she's going to give an interview, hold a press conference. But, but I have other people who say she's not going to give an interview or a press conference because she can't do it. She's not capable.
- [19:42]
Mark Halperin
Next up, more with Megyn Kelly. Stay with us. That's next up. Think about this. What if you could delay your next two mortgage payments? That's right. Imagine putting those two payments in your pocket and finally getting a little breathing room. It's possible. When you call American Financing today, if you're feeling stretched by everyday expenses, groceries, gas, bills that are piling up, you're not alone. Most Americans are putting these expenses now on credit cards and there doesn't seem to be a way out. American Financing can show you how to use your home's equity to pay off that debt. So you need to call American Financing today before you get to a point. Where you can't make those payments. Their salary based mortgage consultants are helping homeowners just like you to restructure their loans and consolidate their debt, all without paying any upfront fees. And their customers are saving an average of $800 a month. That is equivalent to $10,000 raise. It's fast, it's simple and it could save your budget this summer. So call now before it's too late. It's 866-886-2026 again. That's 866-886-2066 or you can visit americanfinancing.net next. All right, let's talk about another group of people who have bedeviled the president's desire to get people to stop talking about this, which is Republicans in Congress. People say all the time the president has this iron hold over Republicans. We saw that in the passage of reconciliation. We saw it in the passage of the rescission bill. He does have a lot of sway, maybe more than any president in our lifetime over his party. Why are people from Speaker Johnson to other leading members of the Republican Party in Congress, why do they continue to say there must be more disclosure when they know that's not the line the president wants?
- [21:34]
Charlie Kirk
Because their feeds look exactly like my feed looks, which is, I mean, it's 90 to 10 out of 100 that want more disclosure on Epstein and who are expressing real angry anger with the president over this issue. So the power that Trump has over them is that he can turn the base against them, but not on this issue. Not on this issue. So I think this is a tough one for them because their constituents are saying something very different than what the president is saying. And in this particular instance, they've got to choose. So they've got to sort of thread that needle where they don't completely tick off the big boss, but show their constituents that they hear them and they care. They're looking for answers. So that's why you got, you know, Mike Johnson didn't do like a pound the table like we need more. This is an outrage. He didn't go full Glenn Beck, who I love. But you know, Glenn Beck had the double blackboard out yesterday. You know, it's serious when he busts out the double blackboard.
- [22:25]
Mark Halperin
Double board day.
- [22:26]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah. So he, he didn't go that far. But he said he threw a bone like we need more disclosure in passing. And I think he set the tone for other Republicans to be able to say that much.
- [22:36]
Mark Halperin
And, and is your view that this will go away and not be a Sustained problem for the president. True. Even if they disclose nothing else.
- [22:45]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah. It is my view. I think, you know, this is as close as Trump has come to the shoot someone on Fifth Avenue moment and see if the base will still stand by him. You know, like a direct attack on them. Truly. Like as bad people as weaklings, if they care about Jeffrey Epstein and whether he was running a pedophile ring like it. But he has shown time and time again that he can withstand the most outrageous of behavior. And look, is it so far afield from saying he doesn't like John McCain because he prefers people who aren't captured? That, in a way, is a. Is an attack on core Republican values about praising our military, certainly prisoners of war. It's just Trump. He's doing too much good to stay down in the dumps for long, even with his core supporters. So while there will be lingering resentment about those insults of people who have been very loyal to him and who literally put him in office, it's not gonna change their vote. Cause what are they gonna do? First of all, he's not running for reelection again, notwithstanding what my pal Steve Bannon says. And they really just need to decide whether they like what he's doing as president for the next three years. And look, it's gonna. It's been great. I just made a list this morning. It was like, okay, so we've had the Stop Fentanyl act this week. Of course, we had the Lake and Riley Act. We got the big beautiful bill through, which has lowered everybody's taxes, and it's kicking people off of Medicaid who have been gaming the system, which I don't think most Republicans have a problem with. The border is secure. The crossings are down to just a trickle. Netanyahu nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize, which actually is legit. So I think there's just too many wins. Trump is too popular and he's legitimately doing too well for him to stay on the wrong side of his core base for very long.
- [24:31]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. You know, I say to people, I see people on tv, including people on the left, but not only. And they're talking with authority, authoritative tone about what this is going to do to Trump's relationship to maga. And I say, I think we should all be deferential to Donald Trump and assume he knows more about MAGA than we do. He's got a good track record.
- [24:51]
Charlie Kirk
He is MAGA.
- [24:52]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And after he attacked Senator McCain, I fell into the trap of saying, well, this is going to kill him with veterans. And there's a huge veterans vote in Iowa. And then. No. And then in South Carolina, he attacked the Pope and everybody's like, oh, it's going to kill him with Catholic voters. I was like, no, no, it's not. And it didn't.
- [25:09]
Charlie Kirk
Our desktop on the debate stage, same.
- [25:11]
Mark Halperin
They were like, women will never vote for him again. Right. Good ex. Another good example. And yet there's another group which is Charlie Kirk and others. Steve, certainly Laura Loomer, arguably some of the President's most important influential and supporters and amongst those with the strongest sense of the grassroots. And, and they don't seem to be stopping. So, so it's been interesting.
- [25:40]
Charlie Kirk
So today on that front.
- [25:42]
Mark Halperin
Today's the 17th.
- [25:43]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah, you go.
- [25:43]
Mark Halperin
Today's the 17th on the 25th. Are those shows going to be talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [25:50]
Charlie Kirk
I think so. Less and less. But I will say, like, Bannon's been really all over it. Bannon every day has got another booking. And you forgot Tucker. Tucker's doing.
- [25:58]
Mark Halperin
Oh, it's a lot. It's Ben Ferguson. I mean, I could list, I could list 50 and it's, it's almost uniform. And of course, Charlie, who we both like and respect, Charlie spent a day in sabbatical and then came right, came right back to it. So, so what will stop? What will if, if there's, if there's no more disclosure, what would cause those people there's, if their phones are still 9010, their inboxes are 9010. Will they keep going? Because when they're talking about that, they're not talking about the President's accomplishments. They're not talking about the Democratic Party's 25% approval rating.
- [26:32]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah, it's going to be a lack of oxygen. I mean, the story gets starved because there'll be no drip, drip, drips of information so necessarily will not dominate news coverage because we're not getting anything new. One of the things the President's suffering from right now is number one, it's a relatively slow news cycle.
- [26:48]
Mark Halperin
Right.
- [26:49]
Charlie Kirk
Which is, by the way, another reason why it was dumb to drop that two page memo in the middle of the summer. She thought it would get buried. No, it's exactly the opposite. You drop that thing when something massive has happened. Go ask Gary Condit why we stopped talking about him. 9, 11 stop has happened and his whole story got forgotten. So that was dumb. It was a self inflicted wound. But there's only so much you can do with it when there's no new information coming out so the left wing press is now, they're so noble, they're suddenly really interested in getting to the bottom of the Epstein scandal because they deeply care about exploited young girls, asterisks, If President Trump could get hurt and possibly shown in a photograph with one of them, in any event, they'll keep it going for a while as they now search and use their massive resources to actually get to the bottom of Epstein. But that can't last forever. The guy's been dead for six years. There's not going to be a ton of new information. And I think the story will starve from lack of oxygen, even with those people you just mentioned.
- [27:49]
Mark Halperin
Okay, so let's talk about possible oxygen. One thing I said a couple episodes ago that I got heat for, even though I'm sure I'm right, the President's a student of history and he's a student of presidential history. And one thing he knows is don't, don't put oxygen in here. Don't put, put more fuel on the fire. If they do have more disclosures, either there'll be more stories about how it's insufficient or there'll be stuff in there that people will see as fodder. So that's why I don't believe that. I think they'll avoid disclosure if they possibly can, for that reason.
- [28:21]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah, well, I think at this point, yes, because the way you handle any sort of a, quote, scandal, and they were sort of sitting with this two page memo, they must have realized it would create a quote scandal, is to not do a drip, drip, drip, but to put it all out there, put it out up front. Don't have, you know, anything that can come back on you, like, what about this? What about that? Stand there for hours on end answering all the questions and then at every point thereafter you say, what more do you want from me? I did it. I gave you all this stuff. I sat there for seven hours answering your questions. It's done. Let's move on. And then you have total credibility to do that. They've done the opposite. Like in the dark of night, a two page memo trying to put to bed a scandal his people created, his top people created. And Pam Bondi as DOJ Attorney General was fueling the fire for months on television. The nerve of that woman to think she could get away with that. I'm sorry, she's directly to blame for the trouble that Trump is in right now. And I really don't think Pam Bondi recovers from this. The base doesn't have the affinity for her that they have for Trump. And while Trump may be Teflon Don, the people around him aren't. And I do think her days are numbered.
- [29:35]
Mark Halperin
If they do do more disclosure, I agree with you. They'll do it. It'll be let it all hang out. It'll be everything to try to stop it. And I also do wonder, you said they knew it'd be a firestorm. It doesn't seem to me they did know. It doesn't seem to me they could possibly have anticipated that, that that short report would cause.
- [29:51]
Charlie Kirk
Let me ask you, Mark, let me ask you about that. Do you really think Todd Blanche, right now the deputy to Pam over at DOJ is saying no daylight between the FBI and DOJ on that memo. And now you've got several organizations that have subpoenaed or foiaed the emails of the FBI officials and the DOJ officials on this. You really think when we get those results, you're not going to see daylight between FBI and doj? That Dan and Cash were like, sure, this is a great way to handle this.
- [30:21]
Mark Halperin
Well, I agree with you that there'll be daylight. But I can't find anybody who said they rang the alarm bell and said this would be the result. My sense is they disagreed about the tactic, but no one said, no one that I have found said this person said, if we do it this way, it's going to cause a firestorm. Maybe that happened. I haven't found it. What about Maxwell testifying? Is that something people in Congress seem to want it. That's on Charlie's List, I believe. Is that something that you think might happen? And if so, what does that do to the story? What does she have to say?
- [30:53]
Charlie Kirk
I mean, I saw the Daily Mail report, the same as you did, that she's supposedly reaching out, saying she wants to do it. I have sources that are closer to her than that, and I'm not sure whether that's true. I'm not sure whether she wants to do it now. I think if Ghislaine Maxwell thought she could get a shortened prison term or a presidential pardon, she'd do it in a heartbeat. And there's she's become this very interesting figure. Right. Because what all of Mag is saying, and of course they were thrilled to see her go down, but what they're saying now is if there's no conspiracy here, if it was just Jeffrey Epstein, why is she sitting in jail? Who is she trafficking all the girls to now, of course, the trial actually had to do with her trafficking girls to Epstein, which she definitely did. I mean, now this I know, and I do have one source in particular who's extremely close to this case and to all the players involved. And this person, from the beginning, I mean, from the beginning, has been telling me that Epstein's thing was the barely legal type. The younger they looked, the better. And that his main thing was he would have them come to his apartment or his mansion and give him a massage that would end in a happy ending. But he had this thirst for, like, new ones. And so there was pressure on everybody who worked for him to go out there and recruit young girls who would come over and do this same thing for him. And he would make promises of like, I'll make a career for you or I'll introduce. And of course they believed it because he was hanging out with presidents and prime ministers and princes. And Ghislaine Maxwell absolutely participated in trying to recruit those young women to come to the mansions and do the thing. And also was accused of herself sexually abusing more than one young woman. But there wasn't some testimony that she was at the center of a pedophile ring finding the girls for third parties.
- [32:36]
Mark Halperin
Right, but whether she wants to testify or not, if Congress subpoenaed her and gave her immunity, she'd have to testify whether she wanted to or not, right?
- [32:44]
Charlie Kirk
Yeah, yes. But so far she's never wanted to do that. And like, I don't know whether that's because she doesn't have the goods or because she likes living.
- [32:51]
Mark Halperin
Right. All right, a few more things. What do you know about Steve Bannon's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
- [33:00]
Charlie Kirk
It was really interesting. So he and I, I think we're going to be having a heart to heart on this very soon, like on the air. But there's no question Steve Bannon knew Epstein very well and definitely came into his orbit post his disgrace in. I'm trying to get the exact year and I don't know exactly the year, but when, when everything was coming down around Jeffrey Epstein prior to him killing himself or being murdered, Steve Bannon was there at his side. And you know, there are reports out there that Steve Bannon has 15 hours of.
- [33:34]
Mark Halperin
Is that true? Do we know if that's true?
- [33:35]
Charlie Kirk
We'll find out. I mean, okay, I'll be the first to tell you when and if he.
- [33:40]
Mark Halperin
I'd love to. I'd love to sit in the edit room with the two of you and cut those 15 minutes into some great program.
- [33:45]
Charlie Kirk
15 hours.
- [33:46]
Mark Halperin
15 hours. Sorry, 15 hours.
- [33:48]
Charlie Kirk
I mean, I can. 100%. Confirm to you that Steve Bannon knew Jeffrey Epstein and spent a long time, many hours with him, counseling him at the peak of his problems.
- [33:57]
Mark Halperin
Right. All right. Did you ever meet him, Epstein?
- [34:00]
Charlie Kirk
No.
- [34:01]
Mark Halperin
No. What do you want, Mark?
- [34:03]
Charlie Kirk
Can I tell you, if I had, I feel like I would have been duped by him, because I don't have the gift at all that my husband Doug has, which. He's like, he's a scumbag. He's a dirtbag. Don't do it. He's. And I'm always like, no. He seems so nice. And then five years later, the person's in jail for felonies.
- [34:19]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. I never met him, but I used to go to a lot of movie screenings in Manhattan that he was invited to also. And he. He cut a. He cut a distinctive figure, kept. Kind of kept to himself. But I must have been at, I don't know, half a dozen dozen movie premieres with him. And, you know, I missed. I missed my opportunity to get my 15 hours of interview, I guess, because I didn't. I didn't strike up any conversations.
- [34:40]
Charlie Kirk
Well, what. What happened with Katie Couric and George Stephanopoulos? Why didn't they get him on camera? When they chose to dine with him at his mansion after they knew he was a predator, they were just fine. Because they wanted access to fame and money and other connections.
- [34:54]
Mark Halperin
He had a Ponzi scheme. You and I talked about the time 100 ones. You know, you bring the advertisers in and the famous people and the writers, and everybody wins because they all get to associate. That's. That's what he did. He had the same kind of scheme where it's like, you want to come at dinner with Bill Gates? Sure, I'll come to dinner with Bill Gates. Yeah. You want to come to dinner with Katie Kirk? Sure, I'll come to dinner. Kate Kirk. And then everybody just creates this Walter Mitty, like, fantasy world of everybody's revolver and Jeffrey Epstein.
- [35:19]
Charlie Kirk
That's right.
- [35:20]
Mark Halperin
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Sick guy. Good.
- [35:22]
Charlie Kirk
Michael Wolf was telling Vicki that he would. He'd go over to the mansion in New York and the Dalai Lama would be there, right? She was like, the Dalai Lama was at Jeffrey Epstein's house? And he was like, yeah, Again, post scandal, it's pretty crazy how people either didn't do their homework. Prince Andrew was there. Post scandal, didn't do their homework, or just didn't give a damn because it was like he was too connected, he was too rich, he was too powerful. He had too many mansions and too many planes and that can be very dazzling to people, even the Dalai Lama and so certainly to young girls. You can see how, you know, they continued to come to his apartment and or his mansions and be fooled by a very effective manipulator.
- [36:02]
Mark Halperin
Megan, very grateful to you and look forward to sitting in the edit room with you and Steve while we log video. Thank you.
- [36:08]
Charlie Kirk
Date.
- [36:09]
Mark Halperin
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I want to talk about the people and why this story in the context of American history matters. Maybe the last several decades of American history since the end of the cold war or even before. There's lots of elements of this story. But the most important to me is this, the Epstein story and why it's created such a political firestorm has to do with, I think, the most important story, political story, an American story of the last 50 years. That's the decline in trust of our institutions, especially government. But not just government. It's also corporations, religious institutions. The Catholic Church, of course, took a big hit with their scandal, and the media, all of these institutions. Now, you don't need to be an expert in polling to know there's a decline in trust. And what is it at its core? What. What is driving that decline of trust? Part of it is it about elites and people feeling that elites in government, in corporations, in. In the media, there's no accountability for them, that everybody else, the elites, get the win, the elites get rich, the elites get powerful, the elites have no accountability, and everybody else gets the shaft. Where did this start? Well, it started, I think, with Vietnam and Watergate, the two seminal events in American history in the 60s and 70s. That you see it in the polling and again, doesn't take a genius to know people's faith in government really declined. Institutions like the federal government lost their credibility. There's a polling question that's been asked for decades. Do you trust the government to do the right thing? Sometimes, always, never. You look at that chart. Decline in trust in government starting with Vietnam and Watergate plummeted because in the earlier part of American history, people did trust the government to do the right thing. There's another polling question that's been asked over that same period of time that I think also along with do you trust the government to do the right thing? Tells the story of the context in which this Epstein story has gotten so much attention. Will your kids have the same better or worse economic opportunity than you did? Also began to plummet over this period of time. So there's some big stories related to the government. Talked about two water, Watergate in Vietnam. There's, there's. There's the Iraq War, there's Covid, et cetera. Talk about those in a moment. But I believe that the context here for both the far left and the far right, the populist left and the populist right, the Bernie Sanders movement and the Donald Trump movement is a lot about the economy. It's about jobs disappearing, not just in the Rust Belt, but all over the country, and the economic pain that causes, but also the problem for identity, including maybe especially amongst men where their jobs that they expected didn't exist. The cost of college, the ability to buy a Home. The American dream connected to buying a home just not available for so many people over decades. The growth of income inequality again also over decades. These are issues that resonate on the left and the right. It's not about one party or another, one ideology or another. Same with the rise of China. Getting crap products from China, then getting Covid from China, but also seeing China rise up and feeling like elites get rich. When China does well in America, American elites do well, but everybody else loses. So that's one important piece of the context of why this story is resonating so much about Jeffrey Epstein. Then there's of course the political track that runs with that, the polarization that we all know about, the red blue divide, that the loudest and angriest voices on the national town square are the ones that dominate. And then we have digital media and the ability to have content at your fingertips, on your phone, in your house, whenever you want it. What is that done? It's produced the opportunity for non stop hate. If you hate Donna Brazile or Karl Rove, you can, you can feed that, that, that hunger 24 hours a day. You can. In the old days, if you didn't like somebody you to go to the library and check out a book or get some microfiche to read about them and how much you hated them. Now it's nonstop available to you. And digital media allows everybody to have choose your own adventure. Whatever information you want, you can, you can find and what people have, have gathered around it. Again, it's about, it's about the two movements that exist in this country today. What's a movement? It's not just people being casually connected to politics and ideas and a desire for change. It's about people being passionately connected. The Bernie Sanders movement, the Donald Trump movement. What do they believe? They believe that DC has gets rich. And DC is an extremely rich area. The statistics are mind boggling. I think the American people actually knew how rich people in DC were, they'd be even more outraged. But DC gets rich and everybody else falls behind. That income inequality grows. That if you, if you live in D.C. either you are a lobbyist or you have a lobbyist. And if you live anywhere else, you don't have a lobbyist. The elites win, everybody else loses. There's no accountability for people. And the Iraq war, extremely disillusioning to people about accountability. WMD Americans spending all this money, losing all these people, having all these people wounded over a war that the American people rendered a verdict on, that it was not a war worth fighting financial crisis 2008. People lose their jobs, take huge hits in their retirement funds. And what did they see? No accountability. No one indicted. You know, plenty of people said, you know, march financial executives into Times Square and hang them, but nothing. No accountability. President Bush, someone I covered, someone I've known, lovely guy. But Bush has become one of the dirtiest words in American politics, particularly on the right, because of the financial crisis in the Iraq war and the belief that that was a war for elites. It was a mistake by elites in the financial crisis and no accountability. Then we get Barack Obama, okay, President Obama, like the two presidents before him, President Clinton, President Bush believed it's central. We got to unite the country. We have to create economic opportunity for everyone. And all three of them, two term presidents, very well meaning, each one largely a failure, particularly Bush and Obama. The Tea Party occurs during Barack Obama's time in office. Very little repair of the belief to restore the belief that the American dream exists for everyone. Then we get to 2016. I think this is an extraordinary, important year for the phenomenon. I'm talking about the fundamental change in America. Again, back to the two poll questions. Do you trust the government and are your kids going to have the same economic opportunity you did? 2016 we had on the Republican side, Donald Trump, not a Republican, taking over the Republican Party. And on the Democratic side, if Bernie Sanders had, if the rules had been fair, Bernie Sanders would have been the Democratic nominee, not a Democrat, take over the Democratic Party. Another pair of institutions that we see in sharp relief in 2016, where people have lost faith in them, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Donald Trump got ahead of that parade, as did Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump did it. And this is one of the extraordinary aspects of Donald Trump. An elite who attacks elites and makes people who are not elite feel they have a voice. How elite billionaire with lobbyists. Donald Trump had had Paul Manafort and, and, and, and Roger Stone, one of the most powerful lobbying firms in Washington history, on his retainer and others, right? And Donald Trump said, I will go to Washington and I will hold the elites accountable. Lots of, of obvious thematic and, and substantive contradictions besides the fact that he was a billionaire. With lobbyists. Lobbyists did very well. When Donald Trump was president, he talks about draining the swamp. There's plenty of things where he didn't drain the swamp, but his movement invested in him the belief that he got it, that he wanted people to say, I have trust in institutions and America, making America great again. Our corporations, our government, everything will be great. And people can believe in it and that their kids will have the same or better economic opportunity than they did then. Covid, okay, Covid. An extraordinary blow to people's faith in government. People worried about the rules, their kids education, whether the vaccines were safe. And this is not just a fringe magasetic concerns. Okay. This was a shared national wonder as much as government officials were dealing with an unprecedented situation. And you could argue the creation of the vaccine extraordinary. But now of course, people wondering whether the vaccine, particularly for kids, was a good idea. But Covid really undermined people's faith in our institutions to do what's right. Now, all of those things I think apply Democrats, Republicans, independents, not 100%. But these concerns, this long range feeling of something off track in America is not a partisan thing. But there is one thing that has made the people on the right have a heightened concern about institutions and about trust and about elites versus everybody else. And that's some of the, some of the, the pace of change in our economy, immigration. So we become a more diverse America with people speaking different languages, eating different foods, having different customs and traditions that has, that has made people feel in some parts of America undermined, that their traditional institutions no longer reflect their values and their identity. See that in changes in race relations, in LGBTQ rights. We see that in gen, in some of the things revolving around trans and gender roles. All of these for people largely on the right, not exclusively, but largely have caused the same tension and the same concern of is this my country? That these are things, these are, these are cultural changes that elites want but that they don't want. And that has created a propensity to make allegations about institutions, that they're promoting change for some unknown or identified but not proven group of people who want these kinds of change. Another element that's special, the right has these special issues. Young people, young people in particular have never lived in an America where there's trust in cultural institutions. They don't believe that in most cases, I'd say in many cases at least, that they're going to have the same economic opportunity as their parents. And you know why they don't? Because many of them don't have it. They're living it. It's not, it's not worry about the future, it's. It's reality about the present. They can't even imagine buying a house. They can't even imagine having a career path that's linear. And they look at these institutions around them and they say, how could it be, how could it be that this America that I'VE read about in history books, learned about in school, where the American dream is available for everybody is not available. And who do they blame? They blame elites. They blame these big institutions that are powerful and rich and have lobbyists and don't seem to suffer during COVID get richer during COVID don't seem to suffer in the financial crisis even though they caused it. Americans have lost trust because they've seen it. This is not conspiracy theory. This is not made up. This is not partisan. We see from Watergate, Vietnam and Iraq War and financial crisis and COVID 19. These big institutions make mistakes. The elites that act with impunity, they do what they want. The media is fragmented. It's confusing. It doesn't answer the question. It doesn't hold the elites accountable. And the media is of course, made up of a lot of elites. All of this cultural change happening so rapidly, there's no shared consensus about it. And the technology, this digital technology that's so powerful, that brings you this program, this technology just divides us and allows people to have their own enemies whenever they want it. This kind of, this phenomena, it's resulted in kind of what some calling a civic vertigo. People no longer know what to believe. And. And many simply then turn to the biggest con, the biggest conspiracies. This Epstein story occurs in that context where people say something bad happened. We know something bad happened. We know that Jeffrey Epstein had relationships with elites and he used those relationships to get rich and to sexually abuse young women and girls. We know that. But people want to know is who else has been held accountable whether he committed suicide or was murdered. He was held accountable to some extent, far too late. Maybe not enough in every possible way in terms of restitution, but he had some measure of accountability. And why people are so upset about this and why even some of the President's strongest supporters continue to speak out about it, is they don't see elites being held accountable. And that's what they're asking for. They're asking for it as a basic reality of what's required in America. If there's going to be a system where they can enjoy the American dream, where they can do as well or better than their parents, where they can have faith in people in public life, whether it's government or corporations, whatever it is that they're going to say and do the right things, this has to be addressed. And that's why they continue to ask for information. Take away conspiracy theories, take away whose names might be in Epstein's system, take away the people who need to be held accountable for specific actions. What people want is to believe in America again, to believe that this will end with accountability for elites. Jeffrey Epstein was friends with and associated with some of the most elite people in this country. The most famous, the richest, the most powerful. Ro Khanna, the Democratic congressman who's been on this program, has been one of the leading voices in American life, I would say, in trying to put the focus on what matters. Here's what he said. People voted for Trump in part because they were so disgusted in the system. They thought that Washington protected the elite, protects the powerful, protects the wealthy. Jeffrey Epstein is a symbol of that. Absolutely. It's absolutely correct. He is a symbol of that. And what has to happen now is there has to be some measure of restoring people's faith in the system rather than being disgusted by it. Americans are, are. Are skeptical of government, always have been. The founders wanted it to be that way. Some are cynical. Some will believe the absolute worst. And for some, this story will never end, because for them, it's not about restoring faith. For them, it's about a game or profit or obsession. But for most of the country in. In Donald Trump's America, Bernie Sanders America, many independents, this is about restoring faith. Okay, so now we get to the President, and. And he's got. The primary obligation here, even though he says far too often for my taste, is up to Pam Bondi, is up to the Attorney General. It's his administration. He hired these people. And although he spent part of this week criticizing his own supporters, he knows full well the importance of the presidency in trying to end this story with as much confidence restored as possible. Now, Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein is something that has not been sufficiently covered. It's an interesting story, for sure. It's an important story in the current context, because Donald Trump has to explain to people how he dealt with this guy. We know they had some sort of relationship. I frankly don't know nearly enough about when they met, how they met, how they interacted. Yesterday, I got a text from somebody, a prominent media figure, who sent me a. A video, and he said, is that you in this video? And the answer is yes. I had forgotten that back in 2015 at the CPAC convention in Washington, that I'd asked Donald Trump about Jeffrey Epstein completely slipped my mind. What happens when you have a career that spans decades? There's probably all sorts of things in the archives that I don't recall. So here's what happened. Donald Trump was speaking at cpac, and there was in the news, the concept of Bill Clinton's association with Jeffrey Epstein. And he was being interviewed on stage by Sean Hannity, and Sean Hannity asked him about Jeffrey Epstein. Let's play that.
- [54:41]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, let me mention some names to you and just get a quick response. Hillary Clinton, like a one word response. I sort of think of Benghazi, I think of a failed Secretary of State. But Benghazi was a disaster. And amazingly, I don't think it resonated like it should have. But Benghazi was a total disaster. We learned from today that in fact, they knew from the first minutes of that attack that it was a terror attack, which I think will become a bigger issue. Bill Clinton, nice guy. Got a lot of problems coming up, in my opinion, with the famous island with Jeffrey Epstein, a lot of problems. Barack Obama, incompetent president.
- [55:23]
Mark Halperin
So this is the year before the presidential campaign where he would end up facing Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton, someone who he knew and had a good relationship with is he's asked about Bill Clinton and his response is not, you know, anything else. He goes right to Jeffrey Epstein. That suggests, again, a decade ago, an awareness of the political dangers of being associated with Jeffrey Epstein and Trump. Back then, as you saw there, kind of a political pundit, right? Maybe he said it for tactical reasons, but I think knowing him a little bit, I think he just basically, that was his analysis. His analysis was if Hillary runs and at that point it was clear, you know, she's going to be the front runner for the Democratic nomination. That and if he faced her in the general, that this would be. He basically said Bill Clinton's primary vulnerability. You think about all the vulnerabilities that Bill Clinton had politically. This was what he identifies as primary. So the way CPAC works is, you know, you have people on the stage being interviewed or giving speeches, and then the media is in the hallway around the big meeting room with the thousands of attendees and politicians and other figures come off the stage or before they go on stage, they kind of walk around media row. And sometimes they come with a specific appointment, like you're being interviewed by Steve Bannon at 3:00'. Clock. So you go to his booth at 3:00'. Clock. But sometimes you're just kind of walking around. And Donald Trump was walking around after his speech with his. His panel with Hannity. And I worked for Bloomberg News. Then you'll see a couple cameos in this clip. My colleague then was Phil Mattingly, who now is at cnn. And you'll see Michael Cohen now on the outs with Donald Trump, to say the least. But back then, Donald Trump's main political handler. So Mr. Trump, then Mr. Trump was walking around and I called him into the Bloomberg booth and here's what happened. Hey, how are you? How you doing?
- [57:20]
Megyn Kelly
Come join us.
- [57:21]
Mark Halperin
Just real quick. I just want to ask you, how do you, how do you think you did?
- [57:25]
Megyn Kelly
The response was fantastic. The room was packed. We, we did really well. I really liked it. I had a good time. And the response that you saw was great.
- [57:33]
Mark Halperin
Now you said 80% chance you're going to run.
- [57:35]
Megyn Kelly
It's a very good chance. And I would say, yeah, I would say I have a whole big team.
- [57:38]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. You ask people. Al's a big supporter.
- [57:41]
Megyn Kelly
Well, Al is a great guy and he's done a great job getting this whole thing moving. Right. Mr. Trump, you explain the team.
- [57:48]
Mark Halperin
Team.
- [57:48]
Megyn Kelly
We've read some stories recently.
- [57:49]
Charlie Kirk
You've hired up.
- [57:50]
Megyn Kelly
I have a team. I have a team in New Hampshire. I have a team in Iowa. I have a team in New York. We have a great team. I'm making a decision and I may surprise you. I don't think I'm going to surprise you that much.
- [58:01]
Mark Halperin
But a lot of people are still just a stunt because you know what, you have trouble selling stuff with that.
- [58:06]
Megyn Kelly
Until, until, well, and I still get the best response. We still had the packed house and the response was great. We just had. I really enjoyed it today and I think they enjoyed it. But until I make that decision and actually announce, you're going to have skeptics.
- [58:20]
Mark Halperin
We were talking to Al about the scrutiny that Mrs. Bush has gotten in the last couple days of two high profile stories. What's your view about whether it's all right for reporters to write about people who may be the first lady of the United States, including your wife, if you run?
- [58:31]
Megyn Kelly
Well, it's just pretty good. I don't know what you're going to find. You're going to have to let me know. But I have to tell you, they were very rough on Mrs. Bush. That was tough stuff. That was nasty.
- [58:40]
Mark Halperin
You think it was over the line?
- [58:41]
Megyn Kelly
I don't know because I don't know her, but it was nasty.
- [58:43]
Mark Halperin
You raised the question of Jeffrey Epstein in your remarks about in the Q and A.
- [58:47]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I think he's got a problem. I mean, what do you think the problem will be? I, I don't know. But that island was really a cesspool. There's no question about it. Just ask Prince Andrew. He'll tell you about it. The island was an absolute cesspool. So friends are friendly, and he's been there for many times. Well, I can't say friends, but I know friendly.
- [59:04]
Mark Halperin
You know them.
- [59:05]
Megyn Kelly
They play at my clubs a lot. I have clubs and everybody likes to play.
- [59:07]
Mark Halperin
Are you saying there's a political problem for her if she runs for president?
- [59:11]
Megyn Kelly
It could be a political problem. Look, he could be a political problem. Right now he's Teflon, and right now maybe not, but he could end up being a political.
- [59:20]
Mark Halperin
So there's Donald Trump a decade ago, on the eve of what he anticipated would be entering the campaign and then facing Hillary Clinton, saying basically, Bill Clinton's political problems with Jeffrey Epstein were amongst the most serious threats to Hillary Clinton's campaign. That's an awareness of this issue that is quite striking in the current context. I believe that it's up in the air where this goes. Will there be more disclosure? What kind? If there is, if there's not more disclosure, or even if there is, how long do people continue to talk about this? There's no doubt that young people talk about it more than old people. There's no doubt that some MAGA diehards, including some people with popular podcasts, talk about it a lot. The polling is a little hard to understand because Pence and how you asked the question, but I don't know where this is going. What I do know is that it's vitally important, vitally important that everyone in public life think about how can we restore trust. This is an opportunity to either restore trust or it's a threat to make things worse, to exacerbate the lack of trust in institutions. Nothing will fix it until the economics are fixed. That, as I made clear, is what I think is undergirding this. Undergirding this is not the concern about the victims, although of course, many people are concerned about the victims. What's undergirding this is not the gossipy interest in knowing who's involved. It's not even the question of getting the specific names. It's about accountability for elites. The main accountability for elites that people in America want is. Is economic. It's to restore the American dream, to reduce income inequality. That shouldn't be a liberal issue or a conservative issue. It's a concern of Trump voters and Sanders voters. You cannot restore the economics quickly, but that's got to be the top priority. But then at the same time, when we have moments like this, something so high profile, something so focused on by the American people, everyone needs to rise the occasion. And that's why when The President says it's up to Pam Bondi. I just don't agree. This is the crisis for him, at least in the immediate moment. Although, again, some people think it'll go away for him politically for his relationship with maga. But it's about something larger. And you see that now with Democrats, some Democrats, politicians are being opportunistic. They see the first sign after a long run of success for the President, of weakness, of political weakness. But I guarantee you that some Democrats, just like some Republicans, are talking about this issue not because their emails are running 90, 10 against the way this is being handled, but because they think it is a crisis moment. It is an opportunity and a crisis at the same time. How can we use this moment to say to people, elites don't always win? Jeffrey Epstein's victims were not elites. They were young women and girls who were lured in by money and pressured by a powerful person. The people who associated with Jeffrey Epstein, whether they, whether they were involved in sexual abuse or not, they were amongst the world's most powerful people, literally. Billionaires, presidents, monarchs, corporate leaders. These. These people, just like Covid, just like Iraq, just like the financial crisis in 2008, elites win and everybody else loses and gets the shaft. This moment, this opportunity is to handle this in a way can't be perfect, but to handle it into a way that it becomes part of the story of restoring trust in our institutions, including our government and our legal system, rather than another story in a long line running straight through from Watergate in Vietnam to today, where the American people look at it and say, this ain't right. This is. This can't be another opportunity where the elites get away with it. That's what's at stake here. All right, I'd love to hear what you thought about what I said today in our whole show. You can email us@nextup halpernmail.com that's nextup halperin gmail.com we'd love to hear from you. Of course, you can always find this program on X and Instagram and TikTok, our handle at NextUp. Halpern, don't forget whether you want to listen to it. You can listen to it as a podcast, but you can watch our program in full in living color on YouTube. We're at YouTube.com@/@nextup helper. Grateful to you for watching. Appreciate you being one of the Nexters. And we'll see you with what's next up next time.