← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Megyn Kelly on Viral Tapper Interview, Plus How to Fix the Media, and Sen. Cotton on D.C. Shooting
01:07:45
Megyn Kelly joins Mark to discuss her explosive interview with Jake Tapper, how she thinks Tapper fell short, and what he still needs to admit about his role in the Biden acuity decline cover-up. Mark lays out a plan for the media to fix its credibility problem, starting with the need for newsrooms to clean house. Plus, Sen. Tom Cotton joins to discuss the D.C. Israeli Embassy staffer shooting, why the U.S. can’t allow Iran to develop a dangerous nuclear capability, and how the influence of the woke left has declined but could come back if Democrats retake power.
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- [00:00]
Mark Halperin
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- [00:30]
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- [01:09]
Megyn Kelly
I'm Mark Halpern. Thank you for joining to learn what's next up here. I'm the editor in chief of two Way and the host of this program on the Megyn Kelly Network. We are off to a fast start. Very grateful to all of you for watching on YouTube, listening wherever your finer podcasts are available and all the folks at MK Media for supporting us. And in celebration of the new MK Media Network, Megan Kelly will be here. We'll have a robust talk about the news, her big interview with the authors of that Biden book, and also I got some probing questions for Megan about stuff like her favorite movie and where she'd like to visit. She's never been so looking forward to talking to Megan. And then Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton will be here. I think some of you probably think of him as a super serious guy and we'll talk about some serious stuff. That shooting in Washington on on Wednesday night, that's tragic and, and has a lot of meaning behind it, but also some lighter stuff. And Senator Cotton is an incredible student of woke woke culture has has had firsthand experience dealing with that and also as you'll see, was pretty early on in seeing the reality of Joe Biden, Biden's cognitive decline. So we'll get to all that. But first I want to go back to a topic that we've discussed here before, which is the media and the media's lack of credibility. We've talked about the Democrats also having a lack of credibility for a variety of reasons related to issues, but also to the, the failure to acknowledge what was playing the eyes of the American people and people in conservative media and some independent journalists, which is Joe Biden's cognitive decline. The press is in a crisis of confidence and credibility over that as well. And what I have said, you've heard me say it, is that there needs to be a full acknowledgement, not a, oh, we shouldn't have missed the story, which is now kind of the line that's going around. But why you missed the story and the reason that the story was missed, I can tell you from having worked in liberal newsrooms for a lot of my career, is because they didn't want to help Donald Trump win. And so they, just as they did with the Hunter Biden laptop story, just as they did with the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story by the big social media platforms on this story, they could all see what was happening, but they pretended it wasn't. So I've said it's important to have a full acknowledgement of the errors. I think every newsroom, if they ask me what they should do, they should have a full investigation. What was the internal communication like with their reporters and their editors and their correspondents and their executive producers? What kind of communication did they have to say, should we investigate this story? Go look at the, the, the rundowns and the, and the, and the internal communications on big days when things happened where Joe Biden demonstrated cognitive decline. The day he talked to a dead congresswoman at an event in part to honor her. What was the chatter like inside? And then interview all your editors and your reporters and your managers and say, what did you do? How did you see it? How did you miss it? So I think that's super important because that's in the news right now. But there's the larger issue of credibility and the larger issue which has become put in sharper relief since Donald Trump went down the escalator of the lack of credibility. And I say to my liberal friends, including my liberal friends, who work in the media and deny they're liberal sometimes, even if you don't think the media is liberal and biased against Republicans and particularly biased against Donald Trump, not all the time, but often know that half the country thinks it. Now, Michael Jordan said he didn't endorse Democrats even though he was a Democrat because Republicans buy sneakers, too. I don't understand in an industry that's struggling for financial relevance and survival, how you could say you didn't want to sell your product to half the country. But that's, that's what's happened. And I'll just remind people in the media today some of the things that's true about the media and give my advice about what needs to be done to restore credibility beyond a full accounting of what they did on the Biden Acuity story. First is recognize that almost everybody in the country thinks the media is biased. Okay? The critics certainly do, people in conservative media do, Republicans do. But the public at large can see it. I've done so many focus groups, had so many discussions, even liberals. Now, if you've streamed Trump derangement syndrome, you might say, well, the media's biased because they're not hard enough on Donald Trump. And that's sometimes true. Being hard on Donald Trump is difficult. I said he's very difficult to cover for a variety of reasons. But I talked to plenty of liberals. I remember when I was covering the Obama campaign in 2008, publicly they'd never say it, but privately they'd all say, of course the media is biased towards us. They're biased towards us over Hillary Clinton, but they're also biased towards us against John McCain. So I think a fulsome apology from the heads of news organizations to say, we get it. You think we're biased, and you think we're biased against Donald Trump because of our conduct. We're sorry, we apologize. We have to do better. I think that'd be helpful. But it's more than that. It's, it's to come clean and to give other examples, not to acknowledge in a, in a, in a halting way or in as limited way as possible to try to get through the crisis, but come clean. Examine the, the, the, the, the many incidences of bias. Acknowledge the flaws. You don't have to say we're horrible people or American journalism isn't great. American journalism is, is, and has been the best in the world. But you got to acknowledge that there have been mistakes that have caused many people in America to see the bias. And again, the Biden cognitive decline story is only the latest. What else needs to be done? Choose words carefully before you publish them. Look at every word and every paragraph and say, how. How fair is that? Are we writing about Donald Trump exactly the same way we would write about a Democratic president who did the same thing and vice versa? Are we writing about the Democrats the way we would write about a Republican? The whole point of my business is to be fair regardless of party, to treat everybody equally or as equal as possible. Okay, then. And this is going to be a hard one. Get the avowed liberals out of the newsroom. Okay. Now there are a lot of reporters who, in, in conversation, and I saw this when I worked, everywhere I worked in establishment media, people will say in private meetings, but in front of a lot of people, crazy liberal things, things that reflect obvious bias against, against conservatives, and particularly against Donald Trump, fire those people. Maybe give them a second chance. But if they're an avowed liberal, not just someone who leans left, fire them. And if people say things, if you're in a leadership role in your newsroom and somebody says something that reflects systemic hostility towards the President of the United States who won the popular vote, call them on it. Don't just laugh or sit in silence about it. Okay, Tom Cotton will be here later. As I said, Tom Cotton wrote an op ed piece for the New York Times espousing the, the use of the military to restore order during the unrest following the, the death of George Floyd. And that op ed piece caused a revolt in the New York Times newsroom because the liberal said he shouldn't say that. It makes them, it makes them feel unsafe. And it was a position, by the way, that was held according to polls by big majority of the American people. That case study should be looked at by every news manager in the country. You cannot let the woke liberal reporters or anchors or correspondents or producers or graphic design artists in your newsroom dictate what you do. And that's what's happened. The leaders, I think, are less biased, although some of them are just as biased. But on balance, I think the leaders are less biased than the rank and file teams of, again, reporters, et cetera. You cannot let them run your newsroom. Everyone study what the New York Times did. They fired the head of the op ed page, my friend James Bennett. They fired him because they were letting the liberals in the newsroom intimidate the managers. You cannot do that. You cannot do that. Then you've got to develop an economic model that will allow your organization to thrive by being fair. Right now, too many organizations, including ones who claim to not be biased, like Politico, like the New York Times, too much of their revenue is tied to catering to liberals. If that's what you want to be, if you want to be the Rachel Mad show, then go all in on that. But if you're going to say to the public that you are reporting equally on Republicans and Democrats and that you're not biased against Donald Trump, you need to have a business model that will allow you to survive. So don't get addicted to the liberal audience unless that's your business model, and you're. And you're proud doing that. If you don't want to be addicted to the liberal audience, you got to come up with something else. It's vital. After Donald Trump won, why did I, why, why was I one of the reporters who said in 2016 Trump could win? Because I traveled with Donald Trump to more than 30 states and I talked to voters all over the why are you inclined to support Donald Trump? After that, the New York Times said, we need to do better. We need to get out in the country. We need to talk to more people. And other news organizations said, let's open bureaus other places. Let's be out in the country. To the extent that happened, it didn't take because the coverage of the Trump administration, of the 2020 campaign and the 2024 campaign was biased. And I've said this many times that bias did not hurt Donald Trump. It helped him. It helped him because of the backlash. So go out in the country and talk to people. Donald Trump in 2016 and to this day talks about the families of people who were killed or attacked or harmed by people who are in this country illegally. I can't imagine a more compelling human interest story and an important story that is resonant for tens of millions of people, many of whom are Trump supporters, but some of whom are not. And I keep saying to people in the media, the dominant media, cover those stories. It's one example, but to me, it's an incredibly symbolically important one. Cover those stories, explain the grief of those families, explain the injustice that they feel to have lost a loved one or seen a loved one hurt by someone in the country illegally because the border wasn't secure. Cover the stories, talk to people, listen for different points of view. I have seen since Donald Trump won the second time, and I'll say, I'll give him credit, the New York Times has probably been the best year. I've seen some examples of stories that recognize their diverse opinions in this country, but not, not nearly enough. Every American is equal. Every point of view has a right to be heard. People can have their opinions, okay? But journalism is about truth, and it's about fairness. It's not about having an agenda. There are lots of jobs you can have in this country, lots of jobs where you can choose to be amongst people who think just like you, talk to people who are just like you. You can push a specific agenda. There are lots of things you can do. If that's your point of view, that's not what you're supposed to do if you're in a newsroom. So you shouldn't go into a newsroom as a manager, as a reporter, as anything else and say, I'm in the news business and my job is to stop Donald Trump from being successful. Go do something else if that's what you want to do. Be fair, judicious, hard working, think through how to win back the trust. And that, as much as anything else, should be the guiding principle of people in newsrooms today. I'm so frustrated by what's happening now. And if you've heard me in the last week, you've heard it in my voice because this new book about Biden acuity comes out and all these people, including the authors, one of the authors of the book, Jake Tapper, says, well, we missed the story. We missed it. I'm, we're sorry. I'm sorry. I missed is not a credible example, just as it's not credible for Democrats like the governor of Michigan to say, well, I'm at in Michigan. We're half a, half a half a country away from Washington. Tom Cotton saw Joe Biden's acuity decline in 2020. As I said last episode, I saw it in 2017. The answer is not I didn't have inside sources or when I was with the president privately, he didn't display any acuity decline. That's not the answer. The answer is I didn't report it because, and again, my suspicion for most reporters is I didn't report it because I didn't want to help Trump win. And I didn't report it because Joe Biden's a nice guy. And I didn't report it because if I tried to report it, the Biden people said they'd cut off my access. Okay, I think those are the reasons. I think for different reporters and different news organizations, the mix of motivation is different. But those, all those reasons fall far short of what a journalist should be about, what a journalist should do. So I'm frustrated because to me, if the press is ever going to win back credibility with the half the country who thinks they are simply out to get Republicans in general and Donald Trump specifically, this is the opportunity. You take the biggest media scandal in American history and you use it as an opportunity not just to try to finesse your way through the inexplicable, but to come clean. And I've given some ideas here about how to come clean. This would be hard to do. When I talked about this list with people, they'll say, well, you can't expect them to do that. It's a heavy lift, but it must be done. I love my profession. I'm such a zealous defender of the prerogatives of the media to serve the public interests. And I'm a big believer in the need, as the founding fathers were, the need to have a strong press corps that can hold all powerful interests accountable to the public interest. It's so out of whack. And I continue to hear people who have risen to very senior positions in some of these news organizations say, well, press isn't that biased. There's other biases. There's establishment bias or controversy bias. There are other biases and I'm against those too. And I urge newsrooms to try to deal with those. But the one they must deal with right now, right now is to have hostility to the sitting president. Cover him tough. Cover the fact that he's selling the office of the presidency. Cover the fact that, that he's doing things that seem to violate, in some cases do violate civil liberties. Cover the fact that he's cutting programs that may hurt some people and the country's not having a full debate. There's lots to cover and needs to be covered. But the only way, the only way to cover it with credibility is to fundamentally redo the newsroom, have a full public accounting and have accountability going forward. If you sit in a newsroom full of liberals who hate Donald Trump, guess what? It's going to affect the coverage. I'm not saying cover him soft. I'm saying cover him with credibility and toughness. But don't think you can cover him in a way that will give you access to half the country as your consumers if you just keep doing the same old thing the same way. All right, I'll keep monitoring it. Maybe some someone will call me and ask me to come be be a consultant to them to help them figure this out. I'm open for business. All right, next up, Megyn Kelly. And then a little bit later, Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas is next up.
- [16:49]
Mark Halperin
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back when you welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com creditcard Based on the February 2024 Nelson Report, tax day may have.
- [17:18]
Megyn Kelly
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- [18:55]
The pleasure's all mine. Thanks for having me.
- [18:57]
I'm going to take the opportunity to, in public, do what I've done in private, which is thank you for bringing me on to be part of this. Why does the world now have the MK Media Network?
- [19:08]
Oh, I mean, the honor is mine, Mark. I'm thrilled to be in partnership with you. You know, it was one of those things where the show was doing very well and we were thrilled with that. But I had so many stars coming on regularly who I absolutely loved hearing from, and I thought it'd be great to help them get out there more. And we've kind of figured out how to market the show, how to get clips out, how to make sure, like, the show gets the attention that it deserves. And then the audience will decide whether they like the content that we started discussing internally. How can we, how can we help our favorites do the same thing? And that's, that's where you came in.
- [19:40]
All right. Well, again, very grateful to you. And, and to the extent we're off to a fast start. I would attribute it at a very high percentage to you and your colleagues who have showed us how to do it. So thank you. Halperin's rule of interviewing. I try to ask the people questions they've never been asked before, at least not in public. So. Okay, that's a tough one. Let's see how I do. I know it's going to be tough, but I think I might be able to do it. First of all, I find that the people who are the most successful on camera are great broadcasters, as you are, but also great television producers. Tell me what you know about how to be a great television producer. What are the, what are the hallmarks of being a great TV producer?
- [20:19]
Well, I mean, I, I, there's so many. But I will say number one, I do think, and this is kind of a compliment to both myself and you, I think I'm a very good spotter of talent. I think I, I have, I don't know if it's all those years I spent with Roger under his wing or what, but I definitely have an eye for who will work and resonate with an audience and who will not. And I've almost never been wrong on that. So that's good, that's good news for I think. You know, one of my main things is I talk about my show as follows. It's like cool water over a hot brain. I want the audience to never have to work for it. I want it to be seamless. It comes into their brain effortlessly. They walk away understanding it without ever having had to try to hit the 15 second rewind to stop and say to the husband or wife, what, what was that? To, to define any small term that may even arguably be confusing. And the audience, if they know it, will forgive you that, you know, five second explanation. And if they don't, they'll be forever grateful to you for not assuming they did. I've got pet peeves that are weird. Like I, I don't really like ring sound bites more longer than 60 seconds. I hate when people put graphics on the screen that don't match what the anchor is saying. It is the most annoying thing in broadcasting, like don't pop up some tweet somebody said or posted one while the anchor's speaking. The brain doesn't know what to do. Do I listen to this anchor? Do I read with my eyes what this post is? Little things like that that have just, you know, come to me over the years that I think help give the audience a pleasant experience while they're watching the show whether they know it or not. And then conversely, people who don't do these things are giving the audience an unpleasant experience. And the audience doesn't really actively know why. They just know I don't enjoy it and they don't come back.
- [22:09]
Spoken like a great TV producer. All right, believe it or not, we're 48. Only 48 hours past your interview with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson and the release of their book. One of the things I tell anchors who I work with or young people who want to be in tv, a list of questions is not a strategy. If you're doing an interview, you need a strategy. What was your strategy when you were interviewing Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson?
- [22:33]
Well, I did go back and forth on how should I start it? Should I start it by getting into the facts of the book, or should I start it by really pushing him on whether he's the right messenger? And in the end, it just didn't feel like I knew I had to get to pushing him on whether he's the right messenger. That could not be sacrificed. We only had 40. Well, we had one hour plus 14 minutes with him, one hour with some breaks plus 14 minutes. And so I just. It was. That was the priority. Get to that. And then whatever time we had left, I would do the substance of the book in. And so that made sense to me. And then there was a question of how hard should I push him? Because we are friends. Friends. We're not like tight friends, but we're friends. We've been friendly, I guess is a better way of saying it, for some 15 years now. I've never done anything social with Jake, but we like each other. So it was kind of awkward, you know, I think he knew. Cause in the booking process, he and I had been in touch that I was gonna push him. And he told me before the interview he wanted that because he wanted to answer the tough questions for all of his skeptics. So. So I felt like we were on a good ground to really. For me to go for it, maybe. Maybe it was like an eight and a half when he thought it might be a six and a half. I'm not sure. We. I think we're fine, but you know how it is. It's like you have to go with the flow when the person comes on and see if they're pushing back, if they're giving it up. You know, if he had rolled over more right at the top, it wouldn't have been as contentious as it got, right.
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We Were going to play a two minute sound bite from the interview, but I'm told anything longer than a minute's a bad idea. So we won't.
- [24:03]
I mean, to be honest, I do make exceptions. It depends.
- [24:05]
All right, maybe we'll roll in some here two minutes or so.
- [24:09]
Megan, that's if we're going to do this.
- [24:14]
Let's just stick to the facts here, okay? When there is a damaging report.
- [24:18]
That's what I've been doing all along.
- [24:20]
Tom Cotton
I'm talking about what you just said.
- [24:22]
Megyn Kelly
Did the biggest story of the century when it comes to presidential politics. And one of us did.
- [24:28]
If, if you hadn't done the interview and Jake, as your friend, called you afterwards and said, hey, how'd I do with that interviewer? How would you say Jake did in his interview with you?
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Well, I'll be totally honest. I thought it. He could have done better. Jake, when he's more relaxed, is much more conversational. And I thought in our interview he sounded almost affected a bit, you know, like, almost like he was trying to be professorial and maintain his cool and he kept repeating that thing. I look back at my coverage with humility, which sounded PR tested and not really authentic.
- [25:06]
There's a reason it sounded PR tested.
- [25:08]
Yeah, I know. And I just think, like, that's the problem. It's not just Jake's problem. It's a problem with a lot of people who are stuck in the cable news universe, which is they're not their authentic selves when they're on camera. Know, Jake is actually a pretty relaxed guy in your personal interactions with him. I, I do like him. It's just on camera, not everybody can do it. And when they're feeling on their heels, not everybody can do it. He, he would have been much better served by just completely owning I'm embarrassed right up top and putting it in his own words so he could really fill it out and convince people of it.
- [25:43]
How convincing do you find his argument that he acknowledges he missed the story, but that there was no way for him to actually get the story.
- [25:52]
I don't believe it. I don't believe that. I think he did have the sources and I just think everyone went along because they liked the lie. They were perfectly happy with the lie. You know, Jake is articulating it perfectly now about how Trump was viewed as an existential threat. And when that's how you see your opponent, any many means are justified. Except he's still not admitting he was part of that. And that, like he talked about how he didn't see what Lara Trump saw, what I saw, what you saw. And one question I wish I had asked him was, why not? Have you spent any time trying to figure out why you didn't see it? Because I would submit he's not a Trump fan and it colored his judgment and it's probably still coloring his judgment right now.
- [26:37]
Yeah. I mean, again, you and I single Eyed Jake because he wrote the book. But what we're saying about him is true of thousands of people, literally, that you and I know in newsrooms across the country. Senator Cotton is going to be here later. He, he put out a video in, in 2020 saying, showing Joe Biden's loss of mental capacity and saying this is a real danger to the country. And I just think they can't answer the question. How can you say you didn't see it? Not were you in private meetings or, you know, off camera and during an interview, but just watching the public performance of Joe Biden in the 2020 campaign? I just don't see how they can say they missed it or they didn't see it or they didn't have the sources it was right there.
- [27:19]
Well, this is one of the things I like about you, Mark, is you are able to report on both sides objectively, no matter what your personal preference is. And I feel like I can do that, too. Obviously, I'm a Trump supporter. I endorse the man and spoke at his rally, but I can still hit him. I can see when he does things that are controversial. He didn't speak to me for eight months in 2023 because I did raise some comments about Trump. He kept calling Biden Obama and was making references to World War Three. And I pointed out he didn't like that. That's, you know, if you're doing your job right, they are going to dislike you, these politicians, even if you happen to support them politically. But more reporters need to be able to separate their personal preferences from their reporting responsibility.
- [28:07]
Yep. All right. This next topic could take two hours, but we don't have it. So I'll ask it briefly and you can, you know, weigh in a little bit. But I know you have a lot of, I'm pretty sure I have a lot of thoughts on this. You mentioned before authenticity and how we look at our friends who are not unshackled as we are. They're not an independent media and they're not their authentic selves on camera or in their writing. Why not? Why can't they be unshackled on cable news or on broadcast Television news. What is it that keeps them from doing what you and I are able to do now so freely?
- [28:38]
Well, I think there's many answers to that. One is if you. Most of these people are Ivy League, you know, elite institution educated folks who. They've had a lifetime of good approval and coloring within the lines and making it in the proper spaces. And so that cultivates a certain, you know, I don't know, unwillingness to show vulnerability. They're only used to getting perfect A's and patted on the.
- [29:05]
The head, playing by the rules.
- [29:07]
Yeah, it takes a fair amount of courage, frankly, to. To get rid of that veneer. Many did not come up under somebody like Ailes, who saw that in me, even though I'm not an elite institution person early on. But I was trying to be a perfectionist, saying that doesn't work on television and the audience can smell a phony from a mile away. And so I was given permission by my boss to let my guard down, and I did. But even then, I think people would say that you could see a big difference between me today and me while I was on Fox. There's some constraints in the cable news universe on just how much of yourself you can and should show. The whole system's set up to be supportive of the platform. Not exactly the anchor and the discussions are so clipped and surface level and cable. You don't have two hours to sit there and just meander and think aloud and have a funny moment and drop a swear if it's authentic to you. You know, it's like the whole system's set up to keep you in a box.
- [30:06]
Yep. And so many of them, and you see this everywhere. They're just reading the prompter and they're waiting for the break, and then they're waiting for the next break, and then they're waiting for the show to end so they can leave. There's no sense of. I'm so excited to be here with my audience. I'm so excited to talk to you. And that. That's true of younger anchors and reporters, but it's true of some of the very experienced people. They're not. They don't seem to be actually in the moment enjoying what they're doing. And so it seems inauthentic.
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It's true. And not just that, but Brit Hume used to say to me, there are a lot of news actresses in this business. You're not one of them.
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Right.
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But it's true for men, too. They're news actors, too. These are like people who are failed Hollywood wannabes who settled for TV so they could see their mugs on television and feel important. And they're not excited to be there. They just want to be a star. So for them, it's about a performance as opposed to, oh, my gosh, I'm excited about the news. I can't wait to talk to you about the news, which I think is closer to how you feel about it. And me too. Either I'm excited about it or I need the show as my therapy. It's a catharsis to set the record straight on what's out there.
- [31:10]
Right. So you mentioned Brit. I had the honor of sitting next to Brit in the ABC News White House booth for the first year or so of the Clinton administration. And Britt is one of the, I'd say the top five people I learned from about broadcast television, how to be a broadcaster, but also how to navigate the complexities of working with 200 people to get a story on the air. I'll tell you my favorite Brit story. Brit used to work for the investigative columnist Jack Anderson. And he said Jack Anderson told him that when you called someone's phone to someone on the phone to try to get an interview with them and back then you had to call someone's landline and assistant would answer and the assistant would say, may I tell Mr. So and so what it's in reference to Brit said Jack Anderson. Tom to say mouth decent. And he said, they always call. They always called back. I learned a lot from Brett, including humor. And that's what I want to ask you about next because I study successful broadcasters and I think about what are the elements of their brand? What is it that people find appealing? And I listen to what people say they find appealing about you. You know, you're interesting, you're honest, you're authentic. You have a great nose for news. You know where the interesting stuff is. But you're hilarious, okay? You're, you're, your show is so funny. You are so funny. And so first I'm, I'm wondering what your comedy inspirations are, either people in news or there comedians you like who, whose style you. You maybe emulate or think about and animate you.
- [32:38]
That's, that's very nice of you to say. Thank you. I would say no. There's, I mean, I love comedy and I love comedians, but there's nobody I style myself after. I would just say I come from a long line of funny people. They come by it naturally. And maybe some small percentage of that has rubbed off of Me, my nana was hilarious, My mom is very funny, my brother's hysterical. And it was just, you know, it's like one of those Irish Catholic things where you sit around the kitchen table and you just mock each other mercilessly for your whole lives. So it comes naturally. And the news is just so ripe for humor. If you can, if you can keep that arm's distance between yourself and it, then, you know, it's one of those many days laugh or cry things. But I don't think I would enjoy the news anywhere as much as I do if I couldn't laugh at the absurdity of it. And I think that's one of the things that's helped me over the years. I remember one time the New York Times was doing a profile on my show when I was at Fox in primetime and I gave her a quote at the end of the show saying something like, we talked about ISIS and men in cages. I mean, it was the worst of the ISIS times and we had a lot of laughs. And somehow, you know, we were able to do that in our 42 minutes of content on the air here and there. And now I, you know, here I try to do the same. You know, you got to keep laughing.
- [33:49]
Tom Cotton
All right.
- [33:50]
Megyn Kelly
If you think about not current day comedians, but like Lucille Ball, Joan Rivers, Ernie Kovacs, who's like a classic comedian whose style.
- [33:57]
And I love Joan Rivers. I absolutely adore Joan Rivers. I know there's so many. I mean, Andrew Schultz right now is so funny. He's so raunchy but hilarious. I absolutely love him. Tim Dillon's hysterical. You know, I love Sebastian Maniscalco, Jim Brewer, he's so good. I like, you know, I like a little raunchy, a little off color. For sure. There have been a lot. I love the comedy seller. I go there. Gnome's a great guy, so more of that the better. And just grew up watching those, you know, like mash. We watch that all the time. The Jeffersons, all these classic comedies that were on in, in our, in our house growing up.
- [34:37]
Growing up. And, and when you started in news, do you consider yourself to be a funny person?
- [34:44]
I wouldn't go that far. I, I would say I have a very healthy sense of humor, but I don't really think I'm actively funny. I mean, I'm good for a laugh here or there.
- [34:52]
I'm going to build a clip reel of your funniest moments from last two weeks and I'll, I think I'll be able to make the compelling case that you are a very funny person. All right. When you think about just broadcasting skills, who, who, who have you learned from who is either by example or instruction, who has taught you how to be a great broadcaster?
- [35:09]
Well, I would definitely say Brit's been a huge influence, same as you point out. He taught me the. The nuts and bolts of being a good reporter and being relentlessly factual and upgrading your information, keeping it tight, all of that, and just never stop questioning the lines in your report. Can they be better? Can they be tighter? Can they be more right than they are right now? And his wife Kim, too, is a mentor.
- [35:31]
Fritz, one of the best TV script writers in the history of the medium.
- [35:35]
Yeah. And merciless in a great way. You know, that's what I hope my team would say about me. I'm merciless in a great way, too, I think, because I don't let up on them. You know, we're working on this AM update show, which we do every day, and my poor producer, I love her, she's great, but I'm just relentless on her. Like, no, no, no, we can. We can upgrade. We can do better. But it's toward service of the audience. That's how Brit was in terms of role models. There's nobody better in my view. Like, there's the person I admired most, he's no longer with us, but by far was Mike Wallace. I just thought, that's it right there. That's how it should be done, with charisma and fortitude and the willingness to challenge anybody, but in a way where you could get away with it. You know, like, you didn't have to emerge with the jugular, but you kind of did. But still, there was a gentlemanly dynamic between Wallace and most of his guests, which I admired. It's very, very tricky. So I really love him.
- [36:31]
Did you spend time with him or. That's just studying him on camera.
- [36:34]
It's just studying him. I didn't. I mean, I know his son, Chris Wallace, fairly well, or did when I was at Fox, but loved him when I was very young. I loved Oprah, and the young Oprah was great. She was a great, great, great interviewer. That was before she got completely drunk on her own wine, became hard, partisan, and then now, in today's day and age, has totally overestimated her current day with relevance. So my love affair with the old Oprah is over, but it doesn't diminish her early work and how talented she was.
- [37:00]
Totally agree. If you go back and look, even when she was in Baltimore, as A local anchor. She was an incredible communicator and her sense of how to communicate and sort of engage the audience was phenomenal. Is there anybody today on the air who you think is a. Is a. Is a very compelling broadcaster?
- [37:19]
Well, I like Jesse Waters on Fox a lot. Like, I. That's the one show that's on TV news, like cable news right now that I would watch. I can't think of.
- [37:29]
What do you think? I'm not. What would you list as Jesse's brand? Besides humor is obviously a big part of it.
- [37:35]
He. Yeah, and he's. He, he too knows what the news target is. He's good at finding himself right over the right. The proper target and approaches it with cleverness and factual, you know, backup. And he's pretty fearless, which is important in today's day and age.
- [37:51]
All right, how am I doing? Asking you questions you've never been asked? 50.
- [37:54]
You're doing very well.
- [37:55]
All right, here we go. Let's keep going. This is, this is what we call skillful. This is what we call the rapid round human interest section. Who is living? You've never met. Who you'd like to meet and why Living.
- [38:06]
Never met. I mean, I, I'm sorry, but it's Meghan Markle. She and I need to sit down across from one another and we will break the Internet.
- [38:12]
Can I come to that? I'll be your graphics PA or I'll help with hair and makeup. I would like to be there for that. Have you.
- [38:19]
Everybody would watch that.
- [38:20]
Have you come close to meeting her?
- [38:22]
Well, I should have gone. I was in the time 100 this year and she was too, which is also ridiculous. And they invited me to go to this like summit the day before where they interview you about how important you are. And I said no. And naturally she said yes. So we could have crossed paths if I had just. Just been more self aggrandizing.
- [38:40]
Do you have your booking request in?
- [38:43]
I gotta be honest, I haven't actually submitted that because the futility of it seems obvious, so.
- [38:49]
Well, so you're saying the person you'd most like to meet, you haven't even asked to meet, even though you could.
- [38:53]
No, no. It's one of those things where it might be too important to me to continue to be able to make fun of her. Like, I don't know if I could make up or like patch things up or somehow be wooed by her mark. Because being able to mock her is too important to me.
- [39:08]
I've never met her, but I think the chances that she would melt your heart and win you over are de minimis.
- [39:12]
I think you're right.
- [39:13]
I would say. All right. What's a place you've never been that you'd like to go and why?
- [39:19]
I'd love to go to Japan.
- [39:21]
You've never been to Japan?
- [39:23]
I've never been to Asia. And, you know where else, though, domestically? I've never been to the Pacific Northwest. Never? Never. Seattle. Portland.
- [39:31]
These are massive holes, man.
- [39:33]
I know. I know. I haven't had a lot of time.
- [39:35]
I've been to pan, like, 25 times. It's my favorite place. It's my favorite place in the world. Let's. Let's all go. Let's take the kids and. And I'll show you around.
- [39:44]
MK Media excursion.
- [39:46]
Best architecture, best food, best service, economy. It's an incredible place.
- [39:51]
Yeah, it's definitely on my bucket list.
- [39:52]
Tom Cotton
Yeah.
- [39:53]
Megyn Kelly
All right. All right. It takes a little while to get there, by the way.
- [39:56]
So I hear.
- [39:57]
All right. What is the greatest movie of all time?
- [40:02]
I mean, are we talking my favorite or just definitively the greatest movie?
- [40:07]
Your fate. Your greatest. For you. What is your.
- [40:09]
My favorite movie of all time is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.
- [40:12]
The original. The original.
- [40:14]
I'm obsessed. I've never even seen the imitations. I refuse.
- [40:17]
How are you imitating the Wonka in the final scene? Near the final scene when Charlie walks in and he says, good day, sir. Can you do that?
- [40:26]
He says, you bumped into the ceiling, which now has to be cleaned and sterilized so you get nothing. You lose. And also, good day. Snow shines a good deed in a weary world. That's a sweet moment.
- [40:43]
Are you so in love with that movie that you can differentiate between the Oompa Loompas or. They're all pretty much the same.
- [40:48]
I can differentiate. I've actually spoken with one of the Oompa Loompas, if you must know. And I watched the whole movie four years ago next to the real Veruca Salt.
- [41:00]
Come on, Julie.
- [41:01]
Don Cole, who's now all grown up and living in London, and she came to my hotel and we watched it together. We decorated the whole thing with Willy Wonka apparatus and we kicked balloons together, like she does in that one.
- [41:14]
Is there video of that? Is there a video?
- [41:15]
Yes, I'll give it to you. You can. You can lay it in here. We sang her song I Want It All. I mean, I peaked. That was it. I had peaked. It was my 50th birthday present.
- [41:24]
All right. Based on that, I think I Might know the answer. But let's say Charlie was not eligible to win. Of the other kids, who was most deserving?
- [41:33]
Oh, wow. Well, no, it wasn't Veruca for sure. She was the worst. Not a good arguable. I guess I'd have to go with Mike tv. I mean, what did he do? Mike tv? Just watched a bunch of tv. Like, that's really bad.
- [41:45]
How's your Mike TV imitation?
- [41:50]
I'm trying to think. He had a lift. So you have to incorporate that.
- [41:56]
Yeah.
- [41:57]
Dad says I can't have a real one now. Tier 12 son, something like that.
- [42:02]
Not bad. Did you have a favorite of the grandparents?
- [42:06]
Well, of course. It's Grandpa Joe. I mean, the other three just sat in the bed. They didn't even try to get up. So that was sad. But I do love the parents who are brought along on the tour. Inside the Wonka factory, you know, there's little lines that I just constantly throw out. Like Rachmaninoff, you know, like, you boil him up. I know it. There's so many great ones from that that I, I, I could recite the whole thing from memory when I watch it, you know, like, I know every line. And the bargain that my family makes with me is, don't do that. Stop doing that.
- [42:35]
It's annoying. I believe I remember correctly, you do not fancy yourself a singer. Am I right about that?
- [42:40]
No, no, I, I think I have a decent speaking voice. And I have an absolutely terrible singing voice.
- [42:47]
Tom Cotton
All right.
- [42:47]
Megyn Kelly
The last thing I'll say about Wonka is when the elevator breaks through the roof, I, I chills every time it happens. Every time I watch it just chills.
- [42:57]
Well, Mark, and you know what else is so great? I mean, it's just there's so much to love about the movie. I mean, I think one of the reasons I love it so much is because I watched it when I was a kid and I watched it a lot after my dad died when I was 15. And it kind of reminds me of a time where, I don't know, it's just feeling connected with my family.
- [43:14]
Yeah.
- [43:14]
And it's about the, you know, terrible people getting their comeuppance and good people getting rewarded for their goodness. So there's a basic morality to it as well. But the, the last line of the movie is Wonka saying to Charlie Bucket, don't forget what happens to the boy who suddenly got everything he always wanted. No, he lived happily ever after. Yeah. And I think about that all the time. Like, if you just persevere. Right. If you, if you are a good person, if you don't chase false gods, if you just live by your own moral code to the best of your ability. I believe that last line. I believe it's possible.
- [43:52]
It's a Wonka life lesson are two more Wonka things. First, I am so loyal to the original in general, and I have no use for the. What's that guy's name?
- [44:01]
Johnny Depp.
- [44:02]
No use to Johnny Depp. But I will tell you, Chalamet is pretty good. If you don't consider it, like, you know, a blight on the original. Chalamet's pretty good. Last thing. I love to play the version, the equivalent of the Newlywed Game between anchors and their producers. I love to see when they. So here's my question. We're doing that with just one question. Will Steve Krakauer say after this, I can't believe Mark wasted 10 minutes talking about Wonka? Or will he say, this thing is awesome. It's going to go viral? Which do you think Steve will say?
- [44:32]
The latter. He'll love it.
- [44:33]
He'll love it. Okay, Steve, are you on? Steve, are you there?
- [44:36]
Mark Halperin
I'm.
- [44:36]
Megyn Kelly
Chime in. I can't wait to find out. All right, last two, because we're up against the clock, as happens even. Even on the Internet. What was the biggest break of your career? And I don't want you to say when you. Fox hired you, because that's too easy. Besides.
- [44:48]
No, it wasn't. That wasn't the biggest break anyway. It was when I had. When I had made a resume tape, but no one knew who I was. I had no connections in news. I was just a frustrated lawyer. I didn't know what to do. And I was. I had one of those moments where I was like, I'm never gonna get into news. I'm 32, which I thought was old. And I'm like, I know nobody. And then one day, Mark, I stayed home and I almost never, ever call home sick, call in sick to work. During my law career or as a TV broadcaster, I really genuinely have to be throwing up all day for me not to go to work. And I was, and I had on Lifetime television, Mark Halperin. Yes, it's true. I was living in Baltimore, Maryland, and I watched the Jessica Savage story on Lifetime tv. And it was that story of this amazing broadcaster who came up in the time of Connie Chung, who made it in a man's world when it was impossible to do so. And she did it. And I thought, you know, what if she could do it then, why can't I do it now? And I started cold calling news directors and it was Bill Lord, who is the news director at wjla, the ABC affiliate in Washington was. Which also happened to have a lesser known cable channel, News Channel 8. And I thought maybe I could. Yeah, I thought maybe I could get hired at News Channel 8. Not even realizing that there was a chance he could put me on abc. And that guy, I agree. I convinced him to let me drop off my resume in person, which was huge because I knew given my nine years of law practice, I could talk my way into the job. And I did. That was the biggest break.
- [46:26]
What's the biggest break you've had since you left NBC?
- [46:31]
Hmm. I mean, I guess, look, if they didn't have the madness of the George Floyd mania in 2020, I might still be sitting on the couch. It was the insanity that the, that the country came under that got me up and off my couch and willing to broadcast in my children's playroom with no video camera and two listeners. So in a way that was a break for me that the news cycle, right, came in and just touched on all these things that are really important to me like fairness and justice and due process and facts about cops that were being misrepresented left and right. That I got off that couch and started what turned out to be a good show.
- [47:10]
Finally. I know you've never been asked this one. What's your best advice for me in succeeding in this world?
- [47:17]
Well, you're an excellent interviewer. That's. I think you just proved that. But I think you're thoughts on the news and politics are what people are going to tune in for. So if I were you, I'd open, and I know you've been doing a lot of this, but I would open every show with at least 20 minutes of what Mark Halperin thinks about the news stories because everybody will listen to that. All right.
- [47:38]
Megan, couldn't be more grateful to you for spending this time for your Wonka reminiscence, but also again for giving me the opportunity to be part of your growing network. I'm grateful to you.
- [47:47]
The pleasure is all my. Mark. Keep going. The show is already a huge success. We've been thrilled. You far exceeded our expectations for a month into launch and I know it's just blue skies ahead.
- [47:58]
Thank you.
- [47:59]
All right, see you soon.
- [48:01]
Up next up, Tom Cotton, the gentleman from Arkansas, in a moment.
- [48:10]
Mark Halperin
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- [48:38]
Megyn Kelly
So now everybody, let me tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. Leo was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight, clearly in a great deal of trouble. Leo rescued the Doberman and he named him Delta. Sadly, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary on Earth. They've rescued thousands of dogs and cats and horses from the wilderness and they provide all the animals they rescue with shelter, love, safety and a good home. This dedication, this everlasting love to animals, that is Leo's mission and his legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be a part of your legacy, speak with your estate planner because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits, too. You can grow your estate while you let your love for animals live well into the future and be part of your legacy. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and you can speak with an advisor. We call dogs man's best friends for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please right now visit deltarescue.org to learn more. Again, that's deltarescue.org Next up now, the gentleman from Arkansas, the Senator Tom Cotton, who joins us now from his very lush Washington, D.C. office. Senator, thank you for making time. We'll talk about some serious stuff first and then some lighter stuff. Senator, I want to start by asking you about the tragic shooting Wednesday night in Washington, D.C. near the Capitol. Two young employees of the Israeli embassy there were murdered by someone waiting outside the event they were attending. You're head of Intelligence Committee and think a lot about homeland security as well as the anti Semitism that exists and has been a problem here and abroad. First on the shooting, just from an operational point of view, do we need to harden targets in the United States where Jewish Americans are congregating?
- [50:41]
Tom Cotton
Well, Mark, first off, let me extend my deepest condolences on behalf of all Arkansans to the families of the two people who were murdered last night and extend my condolences to the people of Israel. One victim was an Israeli national. I believe he was here on a diplomatic passport. That makes it especially heinous that it happened just blocks away from the US Capitol. Unfortunately. I think the anti Semitic murders you saw last night is downstream from the wave of anti Semitic incitement we've seen across America and across the world. And our Jewish fellow citizens shouldn't have to live behind blast barriers and barbed wire and have armed guards outside of every site where Jews may congregate at Jewish day schools or summer camps or synagogues, or last night at a museum. We should do a better job of confronting bravely and strongly and consistently antisemitism in every form, every place we find it. We should very aggressively condemn it and prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law when it happens. So, for instance, this depraved murderer should face the full weight of the law to include the federal death penalty. And we should live in a society where Jewish Americans can congregate, they can celebrate their culture, their religion and their history peacefully and without fear that some anti Semitic mad men is going to come in and shoot them up.
- [52:24]
Megyn Kelly
I know that's the goal and I've been crying most of the morning over it because the brutality of it and the horror of it. But I just go back to the practical question. Do we need to harden targets? Do we need to have more security now until we can do the longer term project of eradicating or eliminating anti Semitism? Do we need more security for events? I know people shouldn't have to be behind barbed wire, but. But is that a reality now?
- [52:52]
Tom Cotton
Sadly, I think it is for many Jews in America and at many Jewish institutions and locations in America. And that's something as a non Jew, it's hard for many Americans to fathom. Yes, there's always the chance, for instance, of random violence in public places or someone going into a church or a school and committing atrocity. But that's different from Jewish parents today in America having to drop their kids at a Jewish day school and seeing armed guards outside of it because of the wave of anti Semitism which has led to anti Semitic violence here and around the world. So I think it's a regrettable fact that many Jewish leaders of Jewish institutions or gatherings are considering further securing their sites to protect their fellow Jews. But again, that's not the America we should live in. We should condemn anti Semitism forcibly. We should pursue and prosecute it, especially the heinous act of violence you saw last night. Any similar kinds of violence and we should aspire to live in America where our Jewish friends don't have to have armed guards or live behind blast barriers and barbed wire.
- [54:08]
Megyn Kelly
The timing of this is unavoidable. The two things going on that potentially could incite more anti Semitism because of the way much of the world treats Israel. One is Prime Minister Netanyahu seems intent on going back into Gaza. And a lot of criticism that there's insufficient humanitarian aid associated with this mission. And there's talk of a potential Israeli strike against Iran if the nuclear pact falls apart between Iran and the United States. Is Prime Minister Netanyahu have to factor in the potential backlash of those two potential actions or one actual and one potential action to make sure that he doesn't do things to exacerbate the problem of anti Semitism?
- [54:51]
Tom Cotton
Well, I expect Prime Minister Netanyahu to do what's right for the nation of Israel, to continue to prosecute the war against Hamas, which continues committed the worst atrocity against Jews since World War II on October 7, 2023, and to ensure that Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. And I expect President Trump will back him to the hilt on that, as he has said. So I think for everyone else here in America, one way to help minimize this wave of anti Semitism is not to apply double standards to the nation of Israel. It's fine to criticize Israel if you have legitimate policy differences with them. I thought for much of my adult life that Israel's economic policies were outdated and semi socialist until Prime Minister Netanyahu, an attorney's finance minister, modernized those policies, unleashed the free market prosperity you see in Israel today. But when you apply one set of standards to Israel and another set of standards to every other nation in the world, I don't see how you can see that as anything other than anti Semitism. Look at what's happened in Gaza in recent months. For instance, Israel has tried to supply food and aid to innocent, suffering Gazans who are suffering not because of Israel's war against Hamas, but because of Hamas's brutality. And what has happened? The same thing that's happened for the last 19 months. As I predicted, when you send aid into Gaza, you are sending it to Hamas and Hamas's fighters. Yet many voices in the west continue to pressure Israel to directly aid and comfort its enemy in a war of survival. We didn't provide aid and care packages to the Japanese and the Germans in World War II. After the war is over, yes, we helped rebuild them, but we did not do it in the middle of a Shooting war for our own survival. We shouldn't apply those kind of standards to Israel either.
- [56:44]
Megyn Kelly
Always mindful of you're limited in what you can say as someone with access to intelligence information. What's a mission that could be successful if Israel decided they wanted to strike at Iran's nuclear capability?
- [56:58]
Tom Cotton
Well, Prime Minister Netanyahu said for as long as he's been in public life, as Donald Trump has said for as long as he's been in public life, that we cannot allow Iran to have uranium enrichment capabilities. That was the central flaw of the Obama nuclear deal. It allowed Iran to keep a vast nuclear infrastructure. Why can't they have enrichment capabilities? It's because if you have any enrichment capabilities, any centrifuges, even if you claim you're only enriching to a low level for supposed civilian nuclear power program, you inherently have the ability to enrich uranium to weapons grade and to turn it into a nuclear weapon, which is a danger not just to Israel and not just to our friends in the Arab Gulf world, but it's a danger to the United States here today because Iran is working on a missile program as well that could have nuclear armed missiles reaching the United States in as few as a few years. That's why President Trump has said Israel can't have nuclear uranium enrichment capabilities. And everyone in the administration has echoed that. Clear red line. J.D. vance, Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth, Steve Witkoff. That's been the position of Benjamin Netanyahu as well. Now, President Trump has said he'd rather have a deal than have to do it the other way. As he puts it, or as he says, Iran can live happily without death or there can be bombing. And I expect we're coming to a head in the few, in the next few weeks of whether Iran is serious about surrendering its nuclear infrastructure.
- [58:33]
Megyn Kelly
Although you're not suffering cognitive decline, you said Israel when you meant Iran. So I just want to clarify. Thank you. You also didn't answer my question. I say respectfully, what would a military mission look like if Israel decided that the only way to stop Iran from developing the capability was to use military force? Is it surface to air missiles? Is it air to ground missiles? What's the, what's the.
- [58:55]
Tom Cotton
Oh, you're right. I don't want to get into classified or operational plans. But I don't think it's any secret, especially after Iran attacked Israel last April and last October in Israel retaliated ferociously, that Israel and the United States have immense military capability that Iran does not. Fighter aircraft, bomber aircraft Missiles, interceptors. There is no question that the United States and Israel have the ability to significantly degrade Iran's nuclear capabilities. That's not what President Trump wants to do, but he has said that's what he will do if Iran is not willing to negotiate a satisfactory deal that blocks all paths to a nuclear weapon.
- [59:39]
Megyn Kelly
Last question on this. If Israel decided, if Prime Minister Netanyahu decided that a military strike was necessary to take out some or all of their capability, could you imagine a world in which that was done against the wishes of the United States, or he'd only do it if the United States was for it?
- [59:56]
Tom Cotton
Well, I don't want to speculate about the various scenarios, but I know that we haven't had a president more pro Israel than Donald Trump in my lifetime, probably in the modern history of Israel. And President Trump has made clear from the beginning that he will always back Israel and that we share the goal of Iran totally dismantling its nuclear infrastructure with zero enrichment capability. As President Trump has said repeatedly, not just in recent weeks, but for 10.
- [60:22]
Megyn Kelly
Years, if the following circumstances exist, and I think it's right now, seems to be the base case, that Russia refuses to make a serious negotiation, a settlement of the end of the conflict with Ukraine that Russia continues to have, if not the upper hand, they're not on their back foot in the conflict, on the ground. If that happens, should the United States go back to sending substantial military aid to Ukraine, or is that, from your point of view, off the table for this president?
- [60:53]
Tom Cotton
Well, Mark, no, it's not off the table because it's actually still happening. President Trump has continued to send military aid to Ukraine at the same same time, he recognizes the realities of the battlefield. Neither side is making much in the way of gains. Ukraine is fighting strongly to defend its territory. Russia is struggling mightily to gain very, very small increments of territory at massive losses, something that Vladimir Putin did not expect, not just three years ago, but three or six months ago. Unfortunately, I think President Trump has realized that Vladimir Putin has been tapping him along for the last few months. That's why he wanted to have the conversation with him earlier this week. That's why he called for ceasefire negotiations to begin immediately between Russia and Ukraine. The Congress will adjourn this week for a week for time back in our home states for Memorial Day. I would say if there's not progress between now and the time when Congress reconvenes at the beginning of the following week, then we need to consider additional sanctions on Russia as well to prove that we're serious about helping President Trump get Russia to the negotiating table, to end the bloodshed in Ukraine, to get to a durable and stable peace. There's legislation that I've introduced with over 80 other senators in the Senate right now. If Vladimir Putin doesn't respect Donald Trump's call for negotiations, then maybe that legislation is a way to get his attention.
- [62:16]
Megyn Kelly
You're an expert on foreign policy as a. As a professional, and you're a pretty good amateur student of the media, I want to ask you a couple questions. My colleagues say that they couldn't see that Joe Biden had cognitive decline until after the election when they were able to do some reporting. I want to show you a video that you put out. Show everybody a video you put out in 2020.
- [62:37]
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- [62:48]
Megyn Kelly
Joe Biden fails the test.
- [62:50]
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Biden doesn't know what day it is. He doesn't even know what office he's running for tomorrow.
- [62:55]
Megyn Kelly
Superstar Tuesday. My name's Joe Biden. I'm a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate. Play the radio. Make sure the television. Excuse me. Make sure you have the record player on at night. Make sure you have the record player on at night.
- [63:10]
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So clueless. Biden called the China travel ban xenophobic, and he wants to exploit this crisis to pass the cross green New Deal.
- [63:18]
Megyn Kelly
Putting more American jobs at risk. We're going to have an opportunity, I.
- [63:22]
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Believe, in the next round here, to use the.
- [63:25]
Tom Cotton
My green economy. My. My green deal.
- [63:29]
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Joe Biden weak on China, too confused to lead. The Republican majority fund is responsible for the content of this advertising.
- [63:37]
Megyn Kelly
So, Senator, what magical powers do you have that allowed you five years ago, without interviewing 200 Democratic insiders, to somehow divine that Joe Biden had cognitive decline?
- [63:47]
Tom Cotton
I wish I had magical powers, Mark. I have two eyes and a little bit of Arkansas common sense. See what most Arkansans could see five, six years ago, that Joe Biden was not up to the task of being president. I know there's a lot of reexamination in recent days because of the publication of a book called Original Sin. I think that title refers to Joe Biden's decision to run for reelection in 2024. The original sin was really Joe Biden's decision in 2019 to run for the White House in his obviously declined state. And for the Democratic Party and most of the media to spend 2019 and every year until last Summer after the presidential debate with Donald Trump covering it up and calling anybody who questioned Joe Biden's mental fitness for office a conspiracy theorist. It was clear to anyone in 2019 and 2020 that Joe Biden had declined severely over the previous four years since he had left the vice presidency and he was not suited to be president. Now, I do want to make the point, though, in this round of recriminations and finger pointings between Democrats and most of the media, with some exceptions like yourself excluded. But in the end, Joe Biden was losing the presidential race last year and he would have lost. And Kamala Harris did lose, not because Joe Biden is old and confused, but because he was a failed president. We had runaway sky high inflation. We had an invasion at our southern border. We had been humiliated around the world, for instance in Afghanistan. It didn't help that he was old and declining, but he'd lost or he would have lost the election. Kamala Harris did lose the election because of four years of failures from the White House.
- [65:15]
Megyn Kelly
You and I both talked to people from Silicon Valley, in universities, the donor community. There's no doubt that since the op ed you wrote for the New York Times had caused such upheaval since then that things have changed. Woke culture does not have the same power it did. I think if you wrote that op ed to the New York for the New York Times today, I don't think people would be fired. I don't think the management would listen to the, to the complaints from the liberal employees. So things have definitely changed. But I'm wondering how much you think they've changed. Is this like Russia under Gorbachev where there's some change, but really it's more cosmetic in some ways? Or do you think now the power of the far left that got my friend James Bennett fired from the New York Times because you wrote an op ed piece that was with a point of view shared by 70% of the public. Would that still happen today in your view? Or is the change pretty fundamental?
- [66:11]
Tom Cotton
I wouldn't say it's necessarily fundamental, Mark. I think part of the reason it's changed is that Donald Trump is back in the White House and Republicans are back in control of the Congress. You did have in the summer of 2020 with the COVID shutdowns and the BLM riots, a radical, almost revolutionary spirit on the left, a Jacobinism thinking they were going to recreate from whole cloth the society made along their utopian, I would say, dystopian lines. They obviously tried to do that in 2021 and 22, when they had all the levers of power in Washington. But the American people never won a bet. They have gradually repudiated it, first in 2022 and then in 2024. I think you have a lot of leaders who are outside of politics, in business, on Wall street, in the media who have recognized that, recognize that that's just a small but very vocal segment of the far left who oftentimes do operate from the commanding heights of the media and culture. So they have outsized opinion, don't speak for many normal Americans. So I do think for normal Americans, they never bought into that program in 2020 and they certainly don't now in 2025. But I don't think you can discount there is still a radical core on the left that has that Jacobin zeal of what you saw in the summer of 2020. And if they got their hands on power again, they would try to pursue it.
- [67:35]
Megyn Kelly
Last question or last topic? I tell people all the time how funny you are. We're just talking to a member of your team before you came on and he agreed with me. You're a funny guy. What can we do to convince America that Tom Cotton's funny?
- [67:49]
Tom Cotton
I don't know, Mark. I just try to get up every day and do my job hard for the people of Arkansas. And if I can make people smile along the way, in addition to serving, serving them, well, I'll do so. I'm a senator, not a stand up comedian and I'm definitely not going to try to audition for one. But I appreciate the compliment.
- [68:07]
Megyn Kelly
I think your governor is hilarious. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, she's kind of like a stand up comedian. Also very accomplished governor. I asked Megyn Kelly this question earlier in the program. Who are your not current, but like classic comedians in America who, who you're a fan of?
- [68:22]
Tom Cotton
I don't, I don't know, probably some of the, the early and iconic folks from the early days of Saturday Night Live that went on to great careers in the movies like JB Chase. Yeah. There's other ones since then. You know, great comic movies like Tropic Thunder or, or Zoolander.
- [68:42]
Megyn Kelly
Good. I'm going to ask you one of my favorite trivia questions and it relates to Chevy Chase, which is the, which represents the greater number of seasons, the number of seasons. Chevy Chase was on Saturday Night Live or Farrah Fawcett was on Charlie's Angels.
- [68:54]
Tom Cotton
Oh, that's a tough one. That's a little bit before my time. You probably remember it as a teenage boy watching every every week I'll go with Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live.
- [69:03]
Megyn Kelly
The answer is both is one season.
- [69:05]
Tom Cotton
Oh wow.
- [69:06]
Megyn Kelly
If we're on for one season, it shocks me every time I say it. But it is before your time so we can't subtract points. Center Grateful to you for making time and appreciate both your wisdom about foreign and domestic policy and your still secret sense of humor.
- [69:22]
Tom Cotton
Thank you, Mark. It's good to be on. Thank you.
- [69:24]
Megyn Kelly
Appreciate it. Great to have you here. Don't forget like subscribe, watch, View, Listen help spread the word about Next up.
- [69:42]
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