← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Partisan Divide on Iran, Inside Trump’s Big Decision, with Rachael Bade, and Sage Steele Unfiltered
01:05:18
Mark Halperin opens today’s show with his reported monologue breaking down the Left’s partisanship on an issue that should transcend politics: stopping Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. While Democrat Senator Chris Coons praises NATO’s new funding commitments and agrees Iran must be stopped, he—like many on the Left—refuses to credit Trump’s role in those efforts. Plus, Mark explains why national unity is essential in times of war, how partisan divisions only serve America’s enemies, and how both parties are guilty parties. Then, Politico Capitol Bureau Chief Rachael Bade joins with a behind-the-scenes look at Trump’s decision to strike Iran’s nuclear facilities. She also unpacks Speaker Johnson’s careful balancing act with Trump and how J.D. Vance is winning over the GOP. Finally, Sage Steele sits down with Mark for a candid conversation about walking away from her dream job at ESPN, finding her voice in politics, and leading with kindness in the face of public criticism.
Loading summary
Transcript118 lines
- [00:01]
Mark Calperin
Psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable.
- [00:04]
Rachel Bade
I had joint pain and I couldn't.
- [00:06]
Sage Steele
Move like I used to. I needed relief.
- [00:10]
Mark Calperin
I got Cosentyx.
- [00:12]
Sage Steele
It helped me move better.
- [00:14]
Unknown
Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for people 2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections, some are fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com.
- [00:55]
Mark Calperin
Ask.
- [00:56]
Rachel Bade
Your traumatologist about Cosentix.
- [01:01]
Unknown
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover. Learn more at discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.
- [01:32]
Sage Steele
All right, so you want to know what's next up? You've come to the right place. I'm Mark Calperin, editor in chief of the live video platform two Way, your host to everything. Next up, and I may begin to call you Nexters. How do you feel about that? Nexters. We're trying to find a name for what to call the people who like this program, and Nexters is currently the leading candidate. Let me know how you feel about that. Tell me on social media or anywhere on YouTube, wherever you're watching the program, if you like Nexters, because that is the front runner. This program appears on YouTube. It also appears as a podcast on leading podcast platforms, your Spotify's, your Apple Music's Apple Podcasts, and grateful to you for being part of the program. A little later, Rachel Bay, the Capitol bureau chief of Politico, will be here. We'll talk about Donald Trump and what's going on with his administration. And then after that, one of my favorites, Sage Steele, the host of the Sage Steele show, will be here. We'll find out from her, amongst other things, how she named her show. But first, we'll have My reported monologue. I'm going to let you know what I think about what's going on between the United States and Iran and President Trump's actions. Pretty dramatic, what he did. Pretty dramatic. And so grateful to you for being here. As I said, Rachel Bade, Sage Steele will be here. But first, now this. I have been amazed at how partisan the Democrats have been in reaction to what President Trump did. By all measures, a pretty exciting, pretty dramatic move and pretty successful. Now, we don't know, will the ceasefire hold? Who knows? But what we do know is that there has been bipartisan consensus for quite some time about Iran vis a vis Israel, vis a vis nuclear weapons, vis a vision, ballistic missiles in the United States. And that bipartisan consensus, going all the way back, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Donald Trump, has been at its root that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon, that Iran's threats to Israel, to the United States, the West in general, was such that it was one of the top priorities of every president I've ever covered, that they need to make sure that Iran does not get a nuclear weapon, particularly coupled with its development of ballistic missile technology. Even at a time of the extreme partisanship we've seen going back till before Bill Clinton, there has been bipartisan agreement. Israel is our ally, it's close ally. Israel must be protected. That Israel is threatened by Iran because of its terrorism, because of its capabilities. But most of all, that Israel was threatened by the prospect of Iran having a nuclear weapon. And of course, Israeli prime ministers, Netanyahu and others have always said that America must be a partner in dealing with this. When Barack Obama chose to deal with this threat, seen by every president since Bill Clinton, he chose to deal with it with an agreement. Now, there are people who say, you can never make an agreement with Iran. And Donald Trump had been one of those people he abrogated. He got rid of the Obama agreement, but he also started to negotiate with Iran and lead up to this armed conflict and seemed at least open through Steve Witkoff, his emissary, open to the prospect of some sort of agreement, which critics said was pretty similar to where Obama ended up with his agreement. Now, some of those critics were Obama people who said, why did he get rid of an agreement only to sign, head towards something similar. And some of the critics were from the right who said, this is like the Obama agreement and we can't have an agreement like that because it's not safe. Every president has worried about Iran, and no one, with the exception of Barack Obama, with that deal has done anything about it. Donald Trump did. Now, this deal again, may not hold, but this was classic Trump. He said to the Iranians, make a deal or you will pay a price. Classic Trump. Lots of coordination with Netanyahu. No one has reported that story out, and that's an incredible story that we'll see how long it stays a secret, but lots of coordination with the Israelis from. For a long period of time, not just during the operation of the last week, Donald Trump acted. He acted decisively and he acted with a purpose. It wasn't to start a war. It wasn't to say, let's bomb Iran, cause regime change, send American forces in, build them schools and hospitals and roads, win over the hearts and minds of the Iranian people. That's not what he was trying to do. You cannot deny that what Donald Trump has done, knowing that we don't know the full consequences, was to solve a problem that has bedeviled the United States and Israel and the world for decades. That's pretty good to solve a problem that the other presidents wanted to solve and couldn't. If you need a history lesson on Iran, you should know that the Iranians have said they're going to develop this capability and they're going to use it and they're going to destroy Israel, and they have the capability to destroy lots of other places by taking their nuclear technology, marrying it up to their ballistic missile technology. This is not a joke. This is not a fight over whether Harvard should get a grant. And I'm not saying that's a joke, but this is life and death. Existential stakes. This is a big thing. If you ask every president since Clinton, what were the biggest things that worried you? What were the biggest responsibilities on your shoulders? Heavy burden. I'm confident that they'd all list, at the top or near the top, Iran's capacity to have a nuclear weapon. Okay? Democrats in the last few days leading up to President Trump's military strike over the weekend, after his military strike, have been out of their minds. Out of their minds in saying that Donald Trump wasn't adhering to the Constitution. Now, make no mistake, technically they're right. But we haven't had a president adhere to the Constitution on war powers since the War Powers act passed, because after Vietnam, the Congress said president had too much power to make war. He wasn't adhering to the fact that war making is supposed to rest with the Congress. And so they passed the War Powers act, and they tried to use the War Powers act to restrain subsequent presidents. None of them have felt restrained in either party. And so part of why what Democrats are saying now, in the wake of Donald Trump's use of military force without congressional authorization is how dare he, forgetting that they allowed Barack Obama to do it. Now, to their credit, there are some principled members of Congress in both parties who, regardless of whether the presence of their party or not, has said no, they cannot act unilaterally. They must come to Congress if they're going to initiate hostile military actions. But it hasn't worked. They're not in the majority. They're not in the majority in Congress. They're not in the majority in the country. Partisanship, There's a phrase partisanship should stop at the water's edge. That on matters of national security, people should have a higher bar for when they act in a partisan way. Unfortunately, whether you want to mark the beginning of the partisan era in which we are now hyper partisan, you want to market to the Robert Bork hearings during Reagan. You want to market to the way Democrats were treated when Bill Clinton was president by Republicans. You want to market to the rise of talk radio or cable news. But we have had for decades now a system where the incentives for the loudest and angriest voices is to dominate the national town square on both sides, because you get rich that way. You get power in Congress, you get followers on social media. It's a messed up process. And many people in my business and politics say, well, that's, that's where we are. That's where we are. We're just going to be like that as a country. I've thought that since the Clinton era, when I was covering the White House and covering the Clinton administration and said, well, it shouldn't be like this. Certainly we should have robust political discussions. Certainly it's not as bad as it was when we had an actual civil war. But for matters, for instance, of national security, when the president does something that pretty much everyone in politics and much the country agrees with, well, that should be applauded, shouldn't it? There was a brief moment like that after 9 11, when people rally around President Bush. 41, 43. That didn't last very long. And so the examples abound, whether you're talking about foreign policy, national security or domestic policy. Barack Obama deported a lot of people. The left didn't protest it very much. They called him deporter in chief behind his back. The right didn't celebrate it. There is something wrong with the country that can't come together and rally around the president when he does something Good. Okay. Barack Obama helped save the auto industry. Republicans criticized it. Okay, now you have Donald Trump doing something historic. Historic using boldly, judiciously using force. Backlash was not very big. The markets didn't seem to mind it. The Europeans didn't seem to mind it. The Saudis didn't seem to mind it, used force. Now, did he completely eliminate Iran's nuclear capability? Probably not. But he got them back to the negotiating table and let us hope he's got them back to negotiating table in a position of weakness. So here you have the decades of polarization, decades of the Democrats just reflexively criticizing the President. Barack Obama gets heat all the time for not endorsing the so called Simpson Bowles plan for deficit reduction. Democrat Republicans say, well, he's not serious because he didn't endorse it. He's not serious about reducing the deficit. Part of why he didn't endorse it, I'm told by people close to President Obama, is because if he'd endorsed it, it would have been the Obama plan, not the Simpson Bowles plan goes from a bipartisan plan to a partisan plan and it would never have passed. I'm not sure that's the only reason, but there's a lot to that. We live in this binary zero sum world now in our politics where if Donald Trump does it for Democrats, it's bad. And by the way, if Donald Trump does it for most Republicans, it's good. People made a big deal of the MAGA split in the run up to President Trump's use of force and they said, well, this shows the chaos and dissension. I prefer to say it shows that in within magna, within the Republican Party, they're willing to have robust debates, that even some of the President's closest allies were willing to go in public and criticize him. And they weren't criticizing him for political gain in most cases, maybe some, but mostly they just thought he was wrong. They thought use of military force in this case was a bad idea, not in America's interest. That kind of robust debate between parties and within parties is fantastic. What's not fantastic is what we have now where again, if Donald Trump does it, it's bad. And again, it's the same when the shoe was on the other foot when Joe Biden was in office. The right would say, well, if Biden's for it, it's a bad idea. So I've just watched these Democrats talk about what Biden did. And the thing of all in politics is when you're doing something that's both bad policy and politics. And I listen to even sensible Democrats, forget the ones on the far left whose Trump derangement syndrome is so strong that they're never going to say anything nice about Donald Trump. And again, there are some people on the left who have a principled objection and there's no problem with that. But, but Democrats, now the mission's completed. He's got up at least a temporary peace deal. And here you have some Democrats, even reasonable Democrats, refusing to say, bravo, Mr. President, I may not agree with you on everything, but bravo. They continue to argue something that, and this is where the bad politics comes in. They continue to say, well, he didn't follow the letter of the law. He didn't come to Congress and get permission. So here is Chris Coons, senator from Delaware, perfectly reasonable guy, not an extremist, has bipartisan instincts. Here he is on Tuesday's Morning Joe, being asked by Susan Page of USA Today, what do you think of the job the president did Pretty good, right?
- [13:24]
Rachel Bade
Was right to drop those bombs Saturday night.
- [13:29]
Chris Coons
Look, I will of course agree that ending Iran's nuclear program would be a real positive for the region and for the United States. Exactly how we went about it, the lack of consultation with Congress, the lack of advance notice, I think was a mistake. And we don't know for sure what the real objective of the administration is. We had on the same day, Vice President Vance on a Sunday show saying we are really only focused on ending the enrichment program. And then the president tweeting about maybe regime change isn't such a bad thing. I think it's important to move to diplomacy to find a way to make the ceasefire hold and to get Israel and Iran, the United States and our European partners at the table to secure a permanent end to Iran's dangerous effort to enrich uranium to bomb levels and develop a nuclear weapon.
- [14:25]
Sage Steele
Okay, not a perfect metaphor, but to me it's like saying, all right, somebody ran into a building burning a building burning and saved my puppy and brings the puppy out. And I say, well, I didn't like the way you saved the puppy. There's some things you didn't get my permission before you saved the puppy. And I didn't like the way he came out of the building. And I've got questions now about whether the puppy might run back into the building. Like, again, bad politics, bad policy. Rally around the commander in Chief, rally around Israel, rally around the success. If you want to raise objections to the process, if you want to worry about what happens next, by all means. First amendment. And if you got a principal objection, raise it. But his lack of credit to the president is striking to me. And again, the Republicans did the same thing to Democratic presidents. Here's Chris Coons. Also on this question of NATO. President Trump singularly has been a force for the voices of tens of millions of Americans. NATO countries need to contribute more to the defense of their own, their own themselves and of the NATO alliance. Here is Chris Coons asked again on Morning Joe. What do you what's going on? He's at the NATO meeting that President Trump's going to. What's going on in NATO regarding spending by these other countries.
- [15:35]
Chris Coons
The talk of the town here at the NATO summit is the commitment of all 32 members to significantly step up their investment in defense, in joint support for Ukraine's fight for freedom against Russian aggression, and in our European allies and partners taking on more of the military burden of collective security here in Europe.
- [15:58]
Sage Steele
Talk of the town in NATO. Yeah, the talk of the town in NATO is Donald Trump forced the NATO countries to contribute something tens of millions of Americans wanted, a very clear campaign, campaign promise. People like Chris Coons said it would destroy NATO. And now he's saying matter of factly, this is great with no credit to the president. I'll say again, in matters of national security in particular, we'd be in a better country if people celebrated the success of our president. So things that made us stronger, even if it was politically beneficial to the president, they should do it on Iran. No matter what happens with the deal, President Trump did it. He effectively did it. And they should be celebrating the achievement or at least partial achievement of a long held bipartisan goal. All right. Or take a little break. When we come back, Rachel Bade of the Politico will be here. That's next up. Wow. It was not supposed to be this bad. You were on top of your bills. Then inflation hit. Groceries, gas, everything shot up. Prices up 26% from just a few years ago. That's 26%. It's not your fault you fallen into debt. Let me share a smarter, faster, far easier way out of debt. It's called done with Debt. And they're not like other debt relief companies. They don't push loans or bankruptcy on you. Done With Debt are legendary negotiators who go head to head with your credit card and loan companies. They have just one goal, to drastically reduce or eliminate your debt altogether. And unlike those others, Done With Debt moves lightning fast. Most clients see more money in their pocket in month one. Let me give you A word to the wise. You need to hurry up because some of their brilliant debt erasing strategies are time sensitive. Do not make another bill payment until you talk to a Done with Debt strategist. Consultation is free. Visit done with debt.com that's done with debt.com again.
- [17:45]
Unknown
DoneWithDebt.com Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.
- [18:17]
Sage Steele
All right, next up, Rachel Bade, a Politico Capital bureau chief and one of the few people in my business who actually produces content that's distinctive. She has great sources, she's a great writer, she's a great observer. And she does not produce cookie cutter material. And that's why we're delighted to welcome Rachel Bate to next up. Rachel, welcome in.
- [18:37]
Rachel Bade
Thank you, Mark. Very generous.
- [18:39]
Sage Steele
Well, it's true. Couldn't say it if it weren't true. What's it like being a reporter in the era of Trump 2.0? Is it fun, easy, exciting, complicated? What's it like?
- [18:51]
Rachel Bade
You know, people have asked me that a few times since President Trump came back into power and I have said this a number of times that I feel like Donald Trump might have ruined journalism for me and that there is so much going on. It's so exciting. It's fun, it's stressful. Don't get me wrong, a lot of work. But what happens when he's gone, Mark? We're gonna feel like we have nothing to sort of latch onto. I mean, look, as somebody who.
- [19:19]
Sage Steele
I.
- [19:19]
Rachel Bade
Love to stay busy. I love a good behind the scenes story. Who's up and who's down? I mean, this second administration has been really exciting to cover. I know I'm having fun. The hours are brutal. I'm sure you would say the same thing, oftentimes making calls until the wee hours of the morning. But there's so much happening right now. And I sometimes tell people that I feel like I'm on a farm and, and there's chickens all around me and each chicken is a different story. And there's like 20 chickens around me. I have to chase one story. I start running after one chicken, Mark. And then I see Another one, and I go after that chicken, and then another one, and I go after that chicken. And there's just so much I want to write about and so little time. So, yeah, I'm having fun, but it's certainly keeping us busy.
- [20:05]
Sage Steele
It's a very good metaphor. Did you grow up with chickens?
- [20:09]
Rachel Bade
I am from a small town in Ohio, but not on a farm. My friends had farms, but I did.
- [20:13]
Sage Steele
Not because I've been surrounded by, like, 30 chickens. And the reason the metaphor is so good is they're all interesting to look at, and they're loud, but they move in unpredictable fashion. So even if you pick one to chase, you may not ever get it. Yeah.
- [20:28]
Rachel Bade
And which one is going to be the juiciest story? Which one's going to taste the best? Right. It's just. I wish I could clone myself.
- [20:35]
Sage Steele
The one that goes to Popeyes will be the one that tastes the best.
- [20:38]
Mark Calperin
I'll take that.
- [20:39]
Sage Steele
All right. Regarding Iran, what are your big unanswered questions? As we sit here and talk here on Tuesday morning, what are your big unanswered questions about what happened? We'll get to what happened next. Next. But what are your big uninsured questions about what happened?
- [20:55]
Rachel Bade
Yeah, Mark, I feel like the biggest thing on my mind right now is what changed President Trump's mind? I'm not sure I have a clear answer to that right now. And I really do want to know more in terms of what made him decide to strike Iran. Right. He has been pushing back on Israel for months now, telling them not to do this. He went from that posture to, okay, they did it. They did it successfully. It was a good strike. Praising what Bibi did until to actually engaging in the war over the weekend and sending those B2s. So I want to know what changed. I've heard a couple of things. One is that CIA Director John Ratcliffe learned something recently. Not sure exactly what it is. I haven't actually heard speculation on what it is, but we can sort of guess that it has to do with some sort of proof that the Iranians are close to weaponizing uranium, not just enriching it and having massive amounts of it, but actually weaponizing it. But obviously, Tulsi Gabbard has been saying, she testified in the spring, that the US Assessment is that Iran, while they are enriching uranium at record amounts, that they were not actually trying to weaponize it and that the US Assessment says they're not doing that. What changed? Okay, something changed. I have heard people who are critical of what Donald Trump is doing right now, I mean, MAGA sorts suggest that maybe this was some intelligence from, you know, Israel that came over and that Ratcliffe presented it to the president and that changed his mind. I just, I want to know more because his posture on this has changed significantly in the past few weeks, and I just feel like that story hasn't been fully fleshed out.
- [22:44]
Sage Steele
Yeah, I agree with what you said. I also think I mentioned this earlier in the show. I think there's something in the conversations he and Netanyahu have had over the last months. I think Netanyahu, who understands politics, American politics as well as any American president, I think he had some way of coaxing Trump into this. Not tricking him, but basically just leading him to the decision based on providing intelligence and pointing out the opportunity that Iran has never been this weak and may grow strong again and striking them when they're weak makes more sense. In terms of what. Go ahead, go ahead.
- [23:17]
Rachel Bade
I was just going to say jumping in on that, in terms of Bibi trying to coax Donald Trump into doing this, the thing that has really stuck out to me is the two sides of Donald Trump in all this. On the one side, he's always been critical of the neocons, et cetera. I'm America first. We're not going to engage in foreign wars, et cetera, new wars. And on the other side, you have a Donald Trump who loves to be the strongman and to sort of stick it to anyone who is dragging their feet on a peace deal or something like that, which Iran was doing, just showing muscle. And clearly Bibi was able to convince him to take that posture. Sorry, I interrupted you.
- [23:53]
Sage Steele
No, that's okay. Glad to hear what you just said. Even a lame duck president, historically, if they have a big military victory, their poll numbers go up and they have more sway on Capitol Hill. Do you anticipate either or both of those things happening now?
- [24:08]
Rachel Bade
Well, I think a lot of it. Well, here's the thing. I actually think that Trump is going to get this bill, this big, beautiful bill passed, regardless of what happens in the Middle East. I think right now, obviously, his focus is, is on what's happening with Israel and Iran. But when the moment comes and they need him to strong arm lawmakers, he's going to do it and he's going to be successful. Now, whether that happens before July 4th or after it, I'm not exactly sure, but he's going to get it done. In terms of, though, other things he might want to do in terms of political capital, that he may or may not have from this moment. There was a really interesting tweet from Amy Walters from the Cook Political Report. She pointed out that after President Obama approved the assassination of Osama bin Laden and was successful there, the president at the time did receive this sort of bump in his job approval rating. People very much loved that, obviously. But then within a few months, he was backed down because of concerns about the economy. So Trump might, if the ceasefire holds, receive some sort of boost. The question is, how long does that last?
- [25:12]
Mark Calperin
Right.
- [25:12]
Rachel Bade
We have these tariff deadlines coming around the corner. You know, the stock market is going to react if all of a sudden we see these tariffs go skyrocketing because there's no tariff agreements that could change prices and inflation. And so eventually it all comes back to people's bottom line here in the United States and how they feel the President is doing on the economy. So we'll see how long Trump can sort of ride this wave if the ceasefire is successful.
- [25:37]
Sage Steele
I want to talk to you about two Trump allies, John Thune and Mike Johnson. Their predecessors in the era of Trump, Mitch McConnell on the Senate side, Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy on the House side. I think it's fair to say they were failures at understanding how to work with Trump. They didn't lose every time, but they didn't stand good terms with him. And in the case of two of them, they lost their jobs. Ryan and. And McCarthy. What is it about John Thune and Mike Johnson, who, on the face of it, to me, would not be Trump whisperers? Right? They're not. They have no kid. They've never. They've never, like, owned a casino in Atlantic City. They've. You know, I don't believe either of them's been married three times. Like, they're not, like, stylistically like Trump. You wouldn't think they'd long to be at Mar a Lago. How have these two guys start with Thune in the Senate? How have these two guys figured out how to master Trump?
- [26:34]
Rachel Bade
I actually want to start with Johnson, if you don't mind, because I think he learned a valuable lesson from his predecessors and that Paul Ryan, who I covered his speakership and Donald Trump's first administration and their relationship pretty closely. And Ryan was very dismissive of Trump. He wasn't always dismissive in public, but the way he talked to the president, the president could tell Ryan, obviously, policy wonk, tax nerd, knew what he wanted to do and thought he was right. And it didn't matter what Trump wanted. He was trying to sort of find a way to manipulate Trump to get what he wanted. So that didn't work.
- [27:12]
Sage Steele
Right.
- [27:13]
Rachel Bade
The MAGA wing hated him. He ends up retiring because he just. He's basically loathed in the party. McCarthy did the opposite. McCarthy was smart in that he was one of the first GOP leaders in Washington to say, look, this guy is going to be the nominee, whether you like him or not. In 2016, you need to rally behind him. He helped connect President Trump with then candidate Trump with fundraisers in the area to raise him a lot of money to try to help him win. He was the ultimate person who showed loyalty at a time when candidate Donald Trump needed it, and he won a lot of favor because of that. But McCarthy became too cocky. He made promises to Donald Trump that he did not keep, including that he would expunge his impeachment record. When he became speaker, that was actually really important to Donald Trump, and Trump asked him about it all the time. McCarthy kept blowing him off. And ultimately Trump said, well, screw you. In comes Matt GAETZ and goodbye, McCarthy. I think Speaker Johnson has sort of found a sweet spot here, right? He has a policy vision the way that Speaker Ryan did, but. And the relationship that McCarthy had as well. But he's not getting too cocky in that relationship. He knows that he always has to get Donald Trump on board. He's made sure that he has a good relationship with him and that he's talking with him frequently and that he's running everything by him. And, you know, it's been surprising to me with Johnson, because, you know, you go back six months ago, Mark, and I was hearing from people very close to Donald Trump that they were having second thoughts about whether they wanted him as speaker. It was after the whole continuing resolution government funding thing totally blew up in Johnson's face. The President was upset that it did not raise the debt ceiling and deal with that issue. And Johnson was able to sort of worm himself back into the good graces of Donald Trump, surprising a lot of people who are very close to him. And, I mean, you see it whenever President Trump talks about Johnson, you can actually just see the level of admiration he has for him. He praises him all the time, says nobody could do the job, which. Which I'm not sure I agree with. No one else could do the job. I think Jim Jordan could probably do the job, but you can just see it. He just loves the guy, I think John Thune.
- [29:28]
Sage Steele
Before you get to Thune. Before you get to Thune, please. My favorite Johnson Trump moment of late was when Trump was praising him the way you said he does, and he said, he's a man of God. And he's like, well, I'm a man of God, too, but he's really a man of God. I think Trump's fascinated by how religious Johnson is. But just one more question about John, then I wanna hear from you on Thune. Is Johnson now on solid footing? Can he make mistakes and Trump will forgive him, or he's basically one strike and you're out and they could turn back on it?
- [29:58]
Rachel Bade
No, I think he's bought himself some real political capital with the president. I mean, a lot of us, myself included, thought his whole promise to pass this big, beautiful bill by Memorial Day was totally a pipe dream and was never going to happen. I mean, we were expecting this to go at least until August, if not through recess, into September. And he did it. And I think that obviously Donald Trump has. He couldn't have done it without Donald Trump whipping the votes. But I think that has bought him some political capital. I will say one thing, and that is there are a lot of Johnson critics right now who are silent. They're not out there fomenting opposition to him, but they would love to see him fall on his face. And frankly, I have heard people say that if this bill falls through, that there could be a move against Johnson, that they could try to vacate him. I'm just very skeptical of it because I think that at least right now, he's in President Trump's good graces and that's all that matters.
- [30:58]
Sage Steele
Yeah, I mean, look, you're right. Other people might be able to do the job, but we've seen from the last couple rounds of speaker voting, it's not clear that everybody else can get the job. It's not clear that anybody else has enough votes within the House conference to get it. Now, the Johnson Trump relationship has been pretty public. They've done a lot of events together. Johnson goes to Mar a Lago. I can count the fingers of one hand the number of times I remember seeing him with John Thune on camera. So what's up with those two, and how has that relationship been built and how does it stand now?
- [31:26]
Rachel Bade
It's a little chillier, I would say. I mean, John Thune has done a lot to try to rehabilitate his own image in Donald Trump's mind. I mean, obviously, he was a critic of Trump after January 6, wanted the party to move on. He supported. He didn't support Trump during the primary. He supported Tim Scott. So he did have some work to do. And his people were very. They knew that. They knew that going into this race. And, you know, he was up against, you know, John Cornyn, who was a member of leadership, also sort of GOP establishment, but had a little better relationship with Donald Trump. And Rick Scott, who was MAGA all the way big Trump ally. But Rick Scott was never going to win that job. But I think, like John Thune did what he needed to do. He sort of bent the knee. He told the president, we're not going to agree on everything, but I know you're the one who had this historic victory and you're the one people voted for. So I'm going to defer to you on a lot of things. And I think he has. You look at the nominations. A lot of the people that Trump nominated for his Cabinet, a lot of folks thought we were going to see multiple people go down, not just Gates, but that a lot of these picks that he had to run hhs, dni, these were people that Republicans were not comfortable with. And yet, largely in part because Thune worked with the incoming administration, they were able to muscle these folks through. So that's the first thing. And then more recently, when it comes to Trump's big, beautiful. Bill Thune has played a big role behind the scenes in pushing back on Senate Republicans who don't love what Donald Trump wants to do in this bill. Specifically, no tax on tips over time. Social Security, that's a big. That was obviously a big promise that Trump made on the campaign trail. A lot of these Republicans don't think those are pro growth policies. They do not like them. They think they're a waste of money. And if it were up to them, they would have gotten rid of them to pay for their own tax priorities. And, in fact, they tried behind the scenes. Anthune was a big, big reason why they were not successful. He told them to stand down, and they've got to get Trump's priorities through. So he's doing what he needs to do in terms of keeping a good relationship with the president.
- [33:40]
Sage Steele
Yeah, I think it's one of the biggest stories of the first several months, the Trump administration, the fact that those three guys have been working together pretty well on some really complicated stuff, not just reconciliation and confirmations, but some other things. I want to ask you about J.D. vance, who was, of course, a senator for 25 minutes and now vice president. How do other senators who want to be president, like Ted Cruz, like Tim Scott, Rick Scott, Tom Cotton, all the others, how did they feel about the consolidation of power of J.D. vance?
- [34:14]
Rachel Bade
Well, I'm sure if they're thinking about running, they realize that he's the biggest threat to them, I can tell you. There's just a lot of awe for him in the Senate, which is not something that I would have said a year ago, I will say, when he was chosen to be Trump's running mate, I heard a lot of grumbling from Republicans in the Senate. They don't like him. They thought he was this young whippersnapper who knew everything and couldn't be told what to do and just didn't understand various priorities that are important to the Republican Party. He's a populist Republican, very different than a lot of those guys. But they have come to see him as a really important sort of go between with them and the White House. You go back to the nominations, and you can actually see nominations for Trump's Cabinet when they were trying to get people confirmed. You can see JD Playing this really critical role, sort of turning a lever on the outside pressure, sort of the influencers and the folks on social media in the MAGA world turning the pressure up when he needed it up on a certain senator to get them in line, and actually dialing it way down when that senator's vote was in jeopardy.
- [35:24]
Sage Steele
And pressure would have. With a lot of sophistication, right?
- [35:28]
Rachel Bade
Very much so. You can tell he has relationships with people like Charlie Kirk and obviously Elon before. But there's a lot of these social media influencers, and my understanding was that his camp has very much been in touch with them to try to use their voices in a way that benefits the president and helps him get what he wants in the Senate. So I think, you know, his power in the party is really unquestioned. I would be shocked if you see some of these Senate Republicans actually run against him, at least in this point. It's early. Right?
- [35:59]
Mark Calperin
We'll see.
- [36:00]
Rachel Bade
You know, if things go very south for President Trump and, you know, J.D. vance is dragged down just along with him, that would be a very different calculus for some of these Senate Republicans. But I don't think there's any question that his standing in the party right now is. Is significant, and a lot of people have a lot of respect for that.
- [36:19]
Sage Steele
Yeah, it takes a lot to win over senators. They're, like, pretty territorial and pretty pleased with themselves. And as I said, he hadn't been there for very long. But I think one of the great untold stories of his consolidation of power is exactly what you described, which is what he's been able to do with the Hill. Rachel Bade, where can people find your work?
- [36:37]
Rachel Bade
They find my work. Politico.com Right now, I read a column called Corridor is basically my reporting, Mark. As we just talked about here, it's a lot of the behind the scenes seen stuff. Who's up and who's down? Who has the ear of the president? You know, how did a deal come together or fall apart? Read my column and give me some feedback.
- [36:55]
Sage Steele
How's your TikTok game?
- [36:57]
Rachel Bade
My TikTok game, Mark, I don't even have a TikTok.
- [37:00]
Mark Calperin
I'm good.
- [37:01]
Sage Steele
All right. You don't need it. You don't need it, Rachel.
- [37:03]
Rachel Bade
I do have a Twitter follow me on Twitter and Instagram.
- [37:06]
Sage Steele
All right, Rachel Beta Politico. Rachel, thank you for joining. Very grateful for you.
- [37:09]
Rachel Bade
Thank you.
- [37:10]
Sage Steele
All right, next up, Sage deal coming up. Next up right after this, I'm going to tell you a story now. It's about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight, clearly in a lot of trouble. So Leo rescued the Doberman and he gave him a name. He called him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta is just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start a new organization called Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the entire world. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness and they provide them with what they need, shelter, love, safety and a great home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals, that's Leo's mission and Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue, though, relies solely on contributions from people like all of us to operate. If you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, speak now with your estate planner because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits as well. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor. We all refer to dogs as man's best friend for a good reason. You can help those who need it most. So please right now visit deltarescue.org to learn more. Again, go today to deltarescue.org Are you.
- [38:30]
Unknown
Still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.
- [39:01]
Sage Steele
Next up, Sage Steele, the host of the Sage Steele Show. First question, quite naturally, Ms. Steele, how'd you come up with the name of the program?
- [39:11]
Mark Calperin
I know it was really difficult, but here's the thing. I actually struggled because I didn't want people to think, oh, she thinks she's all that. I don't know if that's the army brat in me that comes back and try to lead with humility. But I do think from a business perspective, doesn't matter who I'm working with or for. They can't take my show from me if it's my name. Right?
- [39:33]
Sage Steele
Exactly. And the URL wasn't taken. It's all good. I want to talk to you about the news. You're from a military family and obviously heavily invested, not just in America, but in the current administration. So what are your first, your feelings? And then we'll get to your thoughts. What are your feelings about the US Military strike on Iran?
- [39:52]
Mark Calperin
A lot. I think a big, wide range of emotions. It's funny. I'm glad you mentioned my military background again. My dad was and he's been retired for many years, but a career army officer, West Point graduate. Three of my uncles, two of my cousins. My grandfather was a Buffalo soldier. I am as pro American as we get. This is my fiance's condo. We put up the American flag. I live and breathe by that flag. To be honest with you, it's never ideal. It is never what any of us want, despite what some would like, how they would like to paint us. It is not what any of us wanted. But I do fully agree with the actions that have been taken and fully support what this president is doing. It is imperfect. It is unfortunate. And I really feel like for all, I mean, you can look back at just the last half century, you can go way back. We have always been the peacemaker. I don't always like that because sometimes I'm like, let's take care of what's at home. We are failing in many ways here at home. But we don't have a home if others are allowed to do what Iran was doing, et cetera. So it's ugly. But I'm not giving up and I have faith in what our commander in chief is doing and plans to do.
- [41:02]
Sage Steele
In your MAGA universe, is this split people or do you have friends who are supporters of the President who have opposed this.
- [41:09]
Mark Calperin
Sure, absolutely. And that's okay. I think if we're just sitting here saying, oh, whatever, and not questioning anything, that's not healthy either. And, yeah, I guess I'm MAGA because I believe in our country. Unfortunately, there's a lot that comes with that acronym, but I don't care. Yes. And I've seen online there's been a ton of split over it, but I don't think that we should be surprised based on what this president has always said that he wants to do and has really done so far in other areas since taking office on January 20. But to me, this. It sounds cheesy and cliche. You know, peace through strength. This is the definition of that, in my opinion. He doesn't want to do it, didn't want to do it. But we might not have anything if we allow, frankly, the crazy people on this planet to continue. And let's just pray that's what I'm doing. Praying that there's a good result for everybody with as few casualties as possible.
- [42:06]
Sage Steele
You and I got to spend some quality time at Penn State for a game at the end of the campaign, and I was just so taken with your posture, your attitude, your thoughts on so many different things. And I confess I knew that you'd been one of the top sports broadcasters in the country. You've done. You covered other things, but mostly sports. The kind of cartoon version of your trajectory is you're doing sports, you part on some, what, acrimonious terms from espn, and all of a sudden you become very political. What was. What were you like? What was Sage Deal like as a political thinker before you left espn, or did it all start after that and the cartoon version is correct?
- [42:49]
Mark Calperin
I was. I was hidden in a little box in a closet, and I came out of the closet, Mark.
- [42:54]
Sage Steele
I mean, but. But I mean, what did you do with all these incredible, intense, robust political thoughts you have now? Were you just talking about people with them privately, or it just wasn't part of the way you thought about the world?
- [43:06]
Mark Calperin
I have always been passionate, but I lived in fear of not just my workplace, which, as most people know, ESPN is owned by Disney. So that kind of sets the tone there. And I was there for almost 17 years, and I loved every second, even the tough parts where there were double standards and you had to be silent if you thought more in the middle slightly. Right. Much less if you're maga, which I don't even know if that was a thing back in the day. I just kept it to myself because I said, okay, there are more important things. And I have a family to raise. I have three kids now. I've got one just graduated and has a job. Thank you. And the other two are still in college. And so your priorities and your focus is different. And I knew that it would affect my livelihood. There are times I look back and I regret staying silent, but I was fearful. That's why, Mark, I have empathy for people who do choose to stay silent on many topics, even ones that frustrate me, like the transgender women's sports issue. That's one where this shouldn't even be a discussion. Science, guys. But I understand the fear because I lived it, and it is legitimate that you can and potentially will be crushed by your employer if you don't go along with their ideologies. I would talk to my parents. I would talk to my military father, and he and I have not had the same opinions. I tend to be much more conservative than my dad. My mother has kind of gone back and forth, and now she and I think a lot alike. And then one of my best friends could not be more left. Many of my friends are totally opposite, and we have great discussions and conversations. What a concept. You can be friends and family and think differently, and that's so essential and important to me. I just made sure and didn't really do it at work. There were a couple. There were a handful of us who were more center. Right. And we just kind of tiptoed around, and you'd whisper and text. Everybody else was just, I mean, out being brash about it. Even with microphones on and commercial breaks and on ESPN airwaves, they said whatever they wanted because they knew Bob Iger agreed with it, basically. So it's quite an evolution and no regrets. But now it feels good.
- [45:09]
Sage Steele
Yeah. What are your unfulfilled professional ambitions now, besides the podcast? What else would you like to get done before you retire and start playing with your grandkids?
- [45:20]
Mark Calperin
Oh, my gosh. Please don't age me someday.
- [45:23]
Sage Steele
I mean, someday I'm giving you a big Runway.
- [45:25]
Mark Calperin
If they have babies anytime soon, I'm out. Like, come on. I have a life to live. Okay. Career ambitions. Now. There are a couple of people I would like to sit down with and have conversations. On my current show.
- [45:39]
Sage Steele
You say who they are. That would spoil the point.
- [45:41]
Mark Calperin
One of my dreams is Condoleezza Rice. I worshiped her from day one and the grace with which she has done everything.
- [45:50]
Sage Steele
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Mark Calperin
I couldn't have been as graceful all these years. And then especially how she's been treated in particular by the black community. It's like she doesn't exist because she didn't fall on the right side. Like, I admire her as a human being so much.
- [46:01]
Sage Steele
Do you know. Do you know her at all?
- [46:04]
Mark Calperin
I have met her briefly a couple of times, and I'm going to beg my way.
- [46:10]
Sage Steele
Do you want some help with the booking? I don't know her particularly well, but I know a lot of people who do. So you want to have a booking meeting about it and get her? All right, let's do that. All right. I'm writing that down right here.
- [46:20]
Mark Calperin
Thank you. That just have such respect. But also Barack Obama, I have so much I want to ask him about that frankly, doesn't even have anything to do with true, true politics. I don't think he would, but that would be really interesting. And now that I don't have a fear of questions, I ask opinions that are out there. Once you get past the feeling of being disliked and not. Not being okay with that, yeah, it's like, let's go. And I have a lot to say to him.
- [46:48]
Sage Steele
That one's less likely, but here's why. It's not impossible. After his kids, you know what that guy cares about more than anything else? Espn. He is a. He's a sports maniac. He watches, like, all he does is watch sports on tv.
- [47:02]
Mark Calperin
But. But I'm not there anymore. And.
- [47:04]
Sage Steele
Well, I know, but you got a clip reel that you could show him and be like, I've got. I've got ESPN credit.
- [47:09]
Mark Calperin
I mean, if he watched for all those years, I mean, he knew who all of us were. And I was on.
- [47:16]
Sage Steele
We can work on that one. I'm not as sure I can deliver, but Dr. Rice, I think I can. Anybody else or just those two right now?
- [47:22]
Mark Calperin
Just those two. And as far as. I mean, there's several others. But as far as them being, do you want to.
- [47:27]
Sage Steele
You want to make documentaries? Do you want to run for public office? Like, what else is on the list of things you might want to do?
- [47:33]
Mark Calperin
I've been asked about public office before when I lived in the state of Connecticut, which would be an absolute waste of time. Of time. And I now currently reside in South Florida. Thought about it there. I actually talked to President Trump about that. Right. The day before the election when I was with him and Tulsi Gabbard and Danica Patrick. We were on Trump Force One those last two stops of his campaign in Pittsburgh and Grand Rapids and on the plane back. Such an unforgettable incredible moment. And you know, I speak a lot. I love doing the speaking. I'm also a new member of the board of trustees at my alma material, Indiana University. So, hey, big ten love here, right? But it is such an honor to go back 30 years later and to be able to really bring on some change at these universities. Potentially, that's my goal and highlight the good, but really hold people, universities, this one in particular, accountable, especially when it comes to dei, some of the good and the bad that can come from it. And I have some personal reasons that I'm there too. So I think every day, and this might sound lame to you, but you kind of know me by now. I feel like it is such a gift to have this platform. And for a long time, Mark, I wondered why, like, why did God give me this? I was this super shy, weird, awkward, gangly, tall, awkward army kid who didn't know where she was from because we. And I had this crazy dream of becoming a sportscaster, but I was so shy. My parents, like, took me to doctors. They're like, okay, if you want to be on tv, that's great, but you're going to have to talk on television at some point. And they helped me work through so much to get not just to my dream job, ESPN, which I announced when I was 11 years old. I wanted to work there, but to go even further when I was there. So now where I feel like my goal in life, in whatever way that is, whatever platform, is to try to stand up for people who live in fear like I did and people who don't have the platform that I believe God has given me. And so I know I'm on this earth. It's to be a mother to these three kids who aren't really kids anymore. And to use this big mouth of mine that I finally let go of the fear of using it, to try to stand up for those who do have fear and encourage them not to wait 50 years to do it like I did. So whatever that looks like. As, yes, the conversations, not interviews, conversations with people that I'm currently having and to continue speaking and sharing the story of pushing through some fears. And okay, I'm biracial. Well, I'm not black enough, according to them, and I'm certainly not white enough. So what am I? And you have to choose. And I call BS on all of it. Let's talk about those things. And along the way, just be faithful. I know you and I are very different in that aspect, but, like having the conversations about faith and what has pulled you through those things? I'm so humbled to have this platform, and I just. Even if it's gone tomorrow, no more regrets.
- [50:22]
Sage Steele
Yeah. That's awesome. You mentioned Danica Patrick and Tulsi Gabbard, and. And you three are part of a group not. Not like formal, but who. Who supported President Trump and who text and socialize. I'm always. Because I've written books, I'm always thinking, like, what. What books would I want to do? And I want to do a book about your group because it's such an incredible story of. Of your own individual paths that led to 20, 20, 24. But then also how you all traveled together, campaigned together, and now have become very fast friends, or some of you were friends before. But just talk about that group. Do you guys have a name for it?
- [50:57]
Mark Calperin
First of all, that's a great point. See, I need more of you in my life to think that way. My left brain is, like, non existent. I need some. Some creativity. That's a great idea. I have a picture that I should send you from.
- [51:10]
Sage Steele
Could be the COVID of the book.
- [51:12]
Mark Calperin
The picture.
- [51:13]
Sage Steele
Well, I don't know. Tell me what it's of.
- [51:15]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, it is. I forget which Pennsylvania town we were in. And the three of us were each speaking at one of the rallies. So this is late October, and one of the many Pennsylvania towns that we visited. And we were in the back behind the stage, thousands of people out there who'd been waiting for hours in the morning. It was crazy. And it's the three of us sitting there. You know, we look all spiffy and ready to get up and speak. And behind us is this truck. And on top is a soldier, a police officer, SWAT team is probably what it was, with a couple of big machine guns and protecting. And the pictures of us there, cool with our coffee, and above us is this guy with a machine gun that we didn't realize till later. And I'm like, wow. And I thought, where the hell am I? Like, what am I doing? I mean, Danica and I in particular. The most important time for me that I'll never forget with those two women was that Monday before the election. And we were in Buncombe County, Asheville, North Carolina, that had been completely just devastated, of course, by the hurricane and forgotten about by the last administration. And we had six different stops in Buncombe County, North Carolina, that day. Every stop was. One of them was a gas station, one of them was a diner. One of them was a man's home that had been, you know, swept down the hill and he had nothing left. And every time Tulsi and I in particular would get back in the car, we'd be crying more because these people were so positive and so kind and were just happy to see someone care, especially someone like Tulsi, to come and give back and hug them and say, we're going to not let something like this happen to you again. You can't control mother Nature and natural disasters, but you can control our response. And I'm sick to my stomach still about the last administration's response. And it changed me, Mark, to again realize I am right where I'm supposed to be, even though I don't know what happens day to day, what tomorrow may lead to. But to be around people who want to make a difference, even if you think differently and don't agree with their policies or their actions or their personality. Tulsi Gabbard was leading the way with us and asked Danica and I to come with her. And it changed me that day. And so I've so many beautiful memories. And now, yeah, there's lifelong friendships with them. And I don't even really, I'm not in Washington. I'm not doing those things. I don't really have a desire to be. I feel like my role was what it was last fall when they asked. It was an honor to do it. And look what's come of it. Some friendships with beautiful people who look, a couple years ago, did anybody think we'd see Tulsi Gabbard in this role with this administration? Last thing, the UFC event in November, the week after the election with my 78 year old father. And we were sitting right there and I took a picture when Donald Trump, Tulsi Gabbard, Elon Musk and RFK stood side by side, all what former Democrats who were on Team Trump at least at that time. And it was the most surreal thing. And I'm like, I get to witness history. And if I had a tiny bit to do with allowing people who look like me to say, no, it's okay, it's okay to vote for the person who you think will be the best leader based on that, not your feelings. It was such an honor. But to me, Tulsi is a special human being and I am honored to know her.
- [54:37]
Sage Steele
Yeah, you both are people who your friends are so loyal to and so passionate about it. It speaks well of anybody who has lots of friends, but lots of really loyal and intense friends. And when I think about you, and again, we had that one morning together in Pennsylvania. And I've read all about you and watched you on television and video. The two words that I hear over and over about you are courageous and kind. And not every courageous person is kind. And I know you give your parents a ton of credit, but kindness, who knows where that comes from? I'm raising my boy to try to make sure he's kind. But where does your courage come from? Because what you did at ESPN was courageous. Supporting President Trump was courageous. Some of the things stands you take in public are courageous. I was looking at a story about your engagement, which we'll talk about, and the New York Post. Here are the two words they use to describe you in their story about your engagement. Controversial and polarizing. Not kind and courageous. But you got to be courageous because you've stepped in the arena now and you get described like that, which I know, I know you don't think of yourself as controversial or polarizing. So where did your. How. Where did your courage come from? Is that also from your parents?
- [55:51]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, I guess I have become controversial and polarizing to some. I remember seeing that headline. Someone sent it to me and I thought, really? Is that all you got? But I guess, hey, whatever it takes. The clicks. And the Post is supposed to be a little more friendly to people.
- [56:03]
Sage Steele
That's why it struck me.
- [56:05]
Mark Calperin
I was a little disappointed in that. But again, I laugh. Next. First of all, for you to share that with me. My mascara looks good today, so I'm not going to cry, but I feel like it because.
- [56:18]
Sage Steele
Just take a deep breath.
- [56:20]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, no, I. That is. That has always been. My goal, is to lead with kindness, even when I don't want to, because there's some fire that can come out of me daily and even when I'm hurt is to try to lead with kindness. That, to me, is what has been lacking in this world. And I know, and this is what I've said recently, because I feel like, here we go. I feel like I can. All we can do is control ourselves and our own personal reactions to things. I can't control what anyone else thinks about what's going on in the world or what they think of me. So it's easier to be kind. And I feel like if I'm preaching that to my kids, to stand up and be tall and be strong and don't take it and fight back and be kind doing it. I know that it's possible, and I think it's crucial. And if that is all that I pass on to my kids who are 23, 21, and 19. Then I have won. And I didn't set out to be courageous, Mark. I didn't. I just wanted to do my job. And I loved my job at espn. But then I realized, with double standards, you have to make a decision. And then I realized it was bigger than me. Like, if I don't speak up and I have the tenure here, then what about those other people coming after me? Why would they ever take a chance? And maybe everybody can meet in the middle. And as corporations, you're not crushing people who think differently than you say they should. So I guess you could look at it that way. But it's principle. I think principle to me is the biggest thing. And know if that day in Happy Valley, if I shared this with you. But, yes, my mom and dad are responsible, and I blame them. But my dad raised us on the cadet prayer at West Point, and when we were little kids, we had to memorize this part of it. And to this day, it has led me and guided me through everything in my life. Through the decision at ESPN to stand up to Disney, talk about David versus Goliath. I was scared to death. My personal life, even with the end of a marriage. Like, devastating stuff, man. But the prayer is, help me to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong. And never to be content with a half truth when the whole truth can be one. And as a kid, you're like, whatever, dad. This is so annoying. And then if you listen to those words, help me choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong, it actually makes everything very clear, even if it's scary. So when it came time to stand up and be courageous at Disney espn, I just knew I had been wronged and others along the way, too. And it's easier to stay silent. It's easier. It would have saved me a lot of money. My life would look very different. But it wasn't the right thing, and I knew it. And deep down, I believe they knew it, which is why it ended the way it did, with an out of court. We settled out of court and agreed. Out of court. But the truth needs to come out, too. And I'm not willing any longer to settle for a half truth, because I know the whole truth is out there. So I credit Gary Steele, a 1970 graduate of West Point, for giving me that courage. And I will tell you how. I can't tell you the number of times my parents were like, oh, God. Oh, God, please stop. Be quiet. Did you see those comments? Did you see your Instagram? Thousands of people, like, wishing death on Me and my kids, right? Because of my opinions. And they were like, please. My mom one day called in tears, and she's tough. Irish, Italian, she's tough. She goes, please, just delete those comments, Sage, please. And immediately I was like, and this is 2017 before it got ugly. And I said, mom, if I delete those hateful comments, it will make it seem like they didn't happen. But this is real, and this does happen to millions of people. I'm just one, so I can't delete it. And that hurt her because no matter how old we are, like, we're still their kid, right? And she didn't want to see her kid getting crushed, but now she's like, go, girl. And I'm so proud of you. And so I just. I feel a responsibility to lead with that and the harder. Right. And based on principle. And if you do it on that, it makes your decisions much easier.
- [60:39]
Sage Steele
Yeah. You know, I was so affected by our conversation in Happy Valley in Pennsylvania, at the Penn State game, in part because, you know, I've met so many people in my career and had the pleasure and honor to know lots of famous people. Not famous people. Voters across the country. And. And some of them just stand out. And you stand out. First of all, you have the most Dickensian name of all time. You are saved.
- [61:02]
Mark Calperin
It's on my birth certificate. It's not as.
- [61:04]
Sage Steele
I understand. I understand, but you are sage, and you are still. And that's. That's. You know, most people have Dickensian names. They got the first name or the last name. You have both. But I'll go back to it. I know it made you cry, and I know. I know it's dwelling on it, but you are so kind, and you just radiate that. And all your friends say it, and. And I experienced it, and it's like, if I could get two people around my son to influence, just like, through. Through osmosis, and. Or it'd be you and the Dalai Lama. Because. Because I'm telling you, there's just something about your being and. And the fact that you combine it with being so courageous, it's just. It's. It's supernatural. And I've never met your kids. And I really want to, because I want to. I want to interview them about your kindness and see if they see it or if they just, like, they find you annoying. I meant to be an annoying mom.
- [61:48]
Mark Calperin
Well, I am really strict, and I dropped the hammer, and I say to them, jokingly, take me the wrong way here, but I'm like, I will crush you if you aren't respectful to everybody and you're not kind. Like, I threaten them, Mark, and I'll do it.
- [62:04]
Sage Steele
Be kind or else.
- [62:05]
Mark Calperin
Or else I will crush you. This is very simple. That's my job as a mother. And it's really cool now that they're older, especially Quinn, my oldest, who just graduated from High Point University and got a job here in Nashville where I am part time. Time. It's such a blessing. And we're finally becoming friends. Like, that's what I've always heard about that eventually our kids get old enough and stop being jackasses, that we're all friends and I don't have to pay. And we're there and I'm so blessed to have these human beings who make me better, who challenge me, and then there's a lot of ownership. I've screwed up a lot as a mother, right? And I told Quinn the other day, I was like, you know, I've never had a 23 year old before. I haven't. And so you're going to have to guide me as I'm trying to guide you usually. What do we do as parents, Mark? It's like, okay, I've experienced this and let me help you so you don't have to experience it. They listen about 50% of the time I say, I'm just doing this so you don't have to go through what I did. Maybe you can get there sooner, maybe for my kids. And I've said this a million times, maybe you don't wait until your very late 40s, early 50s to be true to yourself and to stand up. And I don't think I told you this, but the night before my lawsuit against Disney dropped, the night before Quinn was in college, the other two were in high school. And I called each of them separately, sat down with the younger two and my son, who's in the middle. I always say he's in the middle of these two psycho daughters of mine. Sister, he's a Saint. Big kid. Six, four, two, 20, heart of gold. And I was tearful as I said, listen, this is what's happening tomorrow. And there's gonna be some headlines and there's gonna be some ugliness. And I wanna apologize for what's coming your way, but don't ever feel the need to defend me, please. But if anyone pushes you, like in the past, parents, teachers, coaches had said stuff to them when I made headlines for something and they took it out on my kids. And I did go crush Those people, by the way, but don't mess with my kids. But I said, don't feel the need to defend me. Just tell them diversity of thought. That's what's most important. And my mom can have an opinion and so can you, but leave her alone in that way. But I didn't want them to feel the need or the pressure to defend me. And my son looked at me and he goes, mom, it's about time you stood up for yourself.
- [64:24]
Sage Steele
There you go.
- [64:25]
Mark Calperin
That moment, I realized, oh, my God. All these years, I was staying smaller and quieter, mainly to protect them. But what was I showing my kids by staying silent? I was telling them to be quiet and to shut up and to not lead. And so I realized my intentions were great, but I was teaching them the opposite of what I needed to be teaching them. And at that moment, I knew that even if I lost the lawsuit, I had won in more important ways, because my kids saw their mom finally saying, enough is enough. This is wrong. And here we go. And it was a beautiful moment that I will never forget. And if I. There's so many great moments that have come from that scary situation with my former company, and I wouldn't change any of them. What a blessing to have that conversation with my son, you know?
- [65:18]
Sage Steele
Yeah. Great, great experience at espn. A great experience with your boy, and then move on to the whole new life that you have now. I had planned to spend most of the program on your wedding, but we're out of time and we didn't even get to it. So just give me one sentence. What's the key to having a good wedding?
- [65:34]
Mark Calperin
Well, this is round two for me.
- [65:36]
Sage Steele
Yeah, I know. So you got, you got, you got to do over here. What's the key to a good wedding? Speak to all brides. What's the key to a good wedding?
- [65:44]
Mark Calperin
Well, I'm not there yet, but right now I can tell you I just found a dress by accident the other day, and I'm two and a half months out. Like, just relax and chill. Two things. Number one, chill, relax, soak it all up. I can't wait to do that. And. And number two, stop trying to please everybody. The first time I, you know, you invite, well, this person, and they'll be hurt if I don't. And then this boss, and screw that. This is your wedding, your day. I'm with the man of my dreams. It took me more than half a century to find. And I'm so grateful. So they come. Something's going to go wrong. It's your choice. You choose to handle it just like if you choose to lead with kindness in other ways. And I'm going to have a blast, even if it's storming and, you know, like, I'm with the people who, who have supported me through times where I didn't even know that I deserved it, you know, so I'm just.
- [66:39]
Sage Steele
This program's in the running to get exclusive coverage rights to the wedding. So I'm not asking to put your finger on. I'm not asking you to put your finger on the scale, but we very much would like to be the official podcast of the wedding. Just so you know, Stage Steel host the Stage Steel show. Soon to be a newlywed again and mother of re strapping adults. Grateful to you for making time. Great to talk to you. Look forward to seeing you and your courageous kindness again.
- [67:05]
Mark Calperin
Thank you for what you're doing. You make me smarter. I am serious. And I loved our day, even though go iu, not Penn State. Yeah.
- [67:13]
Sage Steele
All right, Sage. Thank you. Thank you. All right, again, thank you all for watching. Nextup appears twice a week. You can watch us and listen to us on all the normal podcast channels as well as here on YouTube. If you're watching right now, please, like, subscribe. Become part of the next up experience. And again, I'm going to call you nexters until somebody tells me not to. Thank you very much for being here. I will see you again the next episode to find out what's next up.