Next Up with Mark Halperin — Episode Summary
Episode: Political Scandal Double Standards, the "Epstein Class" Divide, and Trump’s Cultural Impact
Guest: Andrew Sullivan
Date: February 12, 2026
Overview
In this episode, host Mark Halperin interviews noted author and commentator Andrew Sullivan about the ever-evolving standards of political scandal, the so-called "Epstein class" and its growing divide, Donald Trump’s transformative (and often corrosive) effect on American culture and democracy, and the future for American politics. Mark and Andrew delve into how the public, the media, and political elites navigate accusations, shifting norms, and the collision of populist and elite interests. They also discuss the successes and failures of Trump’s opposition, AI’s social and economic effects, and envision what kind of leader America will need after the Trump era.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Double Standards in Political Scandal (Monologue)
Timestamps: 00:59 – 31:06
- Mark recounts his experience reporting on political scandals since the early 1990s—highlighting how standards have fluctuated, often arbitrarily.
- No consistent rules exist: similar offenses sink some public figures, while others survive unscathed.
- The effects of the “Epstein files” underscore these inconsistencies, as some involved pay steep reputational prices, while others emerge unscathed.
- Three key factors in today's “Wild West” scandal environment:
- Digital media — empowers figures to run their own defense campaigns.
- Tribalism — Red and Blue tribes protect their own.
- Information overload — makes truth slippery and accountability rarer.
- The transformation from pre-1990s media—when elite gatekeepers controlled narratives—to the modern, chaotic ecosystem.
- Political opponents now deploy opposition research (often on personal matters) once someone becomes a viable candidate, meaning the dirt rarely emerges until a presidential run.
- The threshold for survivable scandals has lowered dramatically for political “superhumans” like Clinton or Trump, but others without their charisma or willpower are more at risk.
- The upcoming 2028 cycle will be "Wild West times 10," with AI and rapid info flows accelerating both the proliferation and exploitation of personal scandal.
Notable Quotes:
- “Two people can jaywalk and one gets the death penalty and the other just keeps walking.” — Mark Halperin (05:53)
- “You do not get scrutiny until you run for president.” — Mark Halperin (23:28)
- “In the current world in which we live with AI and digital media and a lot of reporters with a very low bar for publishing things, it’s going to be the Wild West times 10 in 2028.” — Mark Halperin (26:44)
2. Andrew Sullivan on Trump’s Lasting Impact
Timestamps: 31:06 – 39:14
- Global Power Shift: The U.S. has moved toward a more isolationist, 19th-century perspective under Trump.
- Cultural Coarsening: Trump introduced “an indecency into our public culture that is new and hideous,” normalizing cruelty and division.
- Strongman Presidency: Trump's approach made the presidency the central and most powerful political tool, further diminishing Congress and the courts.
Notable Quotes:
- “He’s introduced an indecency into our public culture that is new and hideous... a polarization that was there before him, no question. But he’s made a lot worse and I think a lot uglier than it ever had to be.”
— Andrew Sullivan (32:24) - “The use of the presidency has now become this extraordinarily powerful tool... and he’s taken it to a new level and I think it’s a bad thing.”
— Andrew Sullivan (34:33)
3. Cultural Impacts: Division and the Failure of “Resistance”
Timestamps: 35:01 – 46:21
- Trump’s "celebration of cruelty" and normalization of denigration undermined civil discourse.
- Liberal democracy depends on “people of different perspectives being able to have some kind of conversation that isn’t simply yelling.”
- GOP's leaders' failure to confront Trump’s behavior legitimizes it for the broader culture.
- Sullivan criticizes the “resistance” for legalistic strategies over offering constructive alternatives.
- The Democratic Party’s choice of Hillary Clinton, rather than a less polarizing figure, helped enable Trump’s rise.
Notable Quotes:
- “If we can’t communicate with each other… then I think we lose the capacity for a democracy altogether.”
— Andrew Sullivan (36:13) - “I persuade Hillary Clinton not to run for office... I think she was almost his perfect foil.”
— Andrew Sullivan (38:08)
4. The Excesses of the Left and the Incomplete Rejection of “Wokeness”
Timestamps: 39:14 – 43:15
- Sullivan laments the Democratic Party’s inability to move past “woke” excesses—particularly on issues like gender and DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion).
- He argues the Democrats could win handily by championing “affordability, a return to decency, and an end to Wokeness,” but internal party structures, donors, and foundations inhibit this.
- There’s a political opening for centrism, but no clear leader has seized it.
Notable Quotes:
- “If a Democrat could say no, I support civil rights for all transgender people… but do not intervene medically, irreversibly [with kids]—why can’t they say that?”
— Andrew Sullivan (41:13) - “Whoever does that is going to do very well. People are… exhausted by what Trump has put them through. And I think there will be a great desire for some calm.”
— Andrew Sullivan (42:42)
5. The “Epstein Class”: Defining Modern Elites
Timestamps: 57:43 – 63:40
- Mark asks Andrew to clarify the “Epstein class”—who are they, and what do they represent beyond mere immense wealth?
- Extreme Wealth Divide: The super-elite are now “almost interplanetary” in their distance from regular Americans.
- Populist Backlash Brewing: The conspicuous power of the richest individuals, especially through new technology and foundation influence, is sparking talk of “bringing them to heel.”
- Policy Solutions: Sullivan supports higher taxes for the ultra-wealthy, broad social investments (universal healthcare, childcare), and notes the destabilizing potential if white-collar unemployment rises due to AI.
- Historic Perspective: While elites have always existed, today's tech titans (e.g., Musk, Thiel) are both richer and more intertwined with government than past industrialists.
Notable Quotes:
- “The very, very, very, very wealthy have reached a new level of almost interplanetary separation from the rest of us.”
— Andrew Sullivan (59:04) - “There comes a point at which if a super class becomes too powerful, a democracy can bring them to heel and someone’s going to have to do that.”
— Andrew Sullivan (60:36)
6. Artificial Intelligence: Opportunities and Dangers
Timestamps: 64:00 – 68:18
- Personal Use: Sullivan mainly uses AI for research and efficiency, though both he and Halperin note unease about its broader effects.
- Societal Risks: AI stands to intensify disparity, further empower elites, and expose deficiencies in government oversight—especially when previous attempts to regulate technology (like social media) largely failed.
- Protection of Youth: Urgent need to shield young people from harmful AI-driven content—mental health and exposure to inappropriate material are key concerns.
- Modest Faith in Governance: Both express little confidence in government’s ability to keep pace with, or regulate, revolutionary tech.
Notable Quotes:
- “If you ratchet efficiency up, you end up with nothing to do... That’s the worry.”
— Andrew Sullivan (65:12) - “There’s no government strong enough to control the force of this. And so we have to sort of keep our eyes open, just behave pragmatically.”
— Andrew Sullivan (67:34)
7. The Search for Post-Trump Leadership
Timestamps: 68:18 – 75:36
- Sullivan’s Ideal President: Seeks a moderate, pragmatic leader rooted in the middle or working class—not necessarily from either party. Age is a factor (an upper age limit is proposed).
- List of Possible Leaders: Halperin and Sullivan (with a dash of AI assistance) review names like Josh Shapiro, Wes Moore, Abigail Spanberger, Larry Hogan, Chris Sununu, and Jared Polis. Sullivan expresses preference for politicians who’ve overcome adversity and communicate effectively with the public.
- Lack of Optimism: Neither Sullivan nor the young thinkers he’s interviewed are confident that such a leader is currently visible—“we are waiting for an Obama.”
Notable Quotes:
- “I’d love Tom Massie to run... I like people who’ve overcome.”
— Andrew Sullivan (69:44) - “We are waiting. We’re waiting for an Obama.”
— Andrew Sullivan (76:12)
8. Trump’s Place in History
Timestamps: 73:24 – 75:36
- Sullivan estimates a low (15 out of 100) chance that Trump will be seen as successful by future historians, regardless of foreign policy wins.
- The damage to constitutional norms, political culture, and the dignity of the office outweighs any hypothetical achievements.
- Sullivan, an American by choice, expresses embarrassment at Trump’s global representation of the U.S. but insists America—and its people—are better than what Trump represents.
Notable Quotes:
- “I am humiliated and embarrassed as an American to have this guy represent us around the world because he does not represent the best of America.”
— Andrew Sullivan (74:01) - “I love America. And I chose America because it is this fantastic, dynamic, exciting, brilliant place. But it’s also a decent place.”
— Andrew Sullivan (74:42)
Summary Table of Most Notable Segments
| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |---------------|------------------| | 05:53 | “Two people can jaywalk and one gets the death penalty...” — Mark Halperin (on scandal double standards) | | 32:24 | “He’s introduced an indecency...” — Andrew Sullivan (on Trump’s cultural impact) | | 41:13 | “If a Democrat could say... do not intervene medically, irreversibly...” — Andrew Sullivan (on “woke” issues)| | 59:04 | “The very, very, very, very wealthy have reached a new level of almost interplanetary separation...” — Sullivan (on the super-rich) | | 74:01 | “I am humiliated and embarrassed as an American...” — Andrew Sullivan (on Trump as global representative) |
Tone and Style
- Candid and Analytical: Both Halperin and Sullivan are direct; they rely on history and personal observation to analyze systemic shifts in American politics and culture.
- Wry, Occasional Humor: Sullivan’s characteristic blend of seriousness and wit provides levity without diminishing the gravity of the topics.
Takeaways
- The rules for political scandal are more arbitrary than ever, deeply colored by tribal loyalties, digital media, and changing public standards.
- Trump has transformed not just policies but the tone and norms of American public life, arguably coarsening them in ways that may take a generation to reverse.
- The concentration of wealth and influence in the so-called “Epstein class” is fostering significant alienation and has the potential to trigger major policy and cultural shifts.
- Artificial Intelligence poses massive challenges for social equity, regulation, and democracy, which the current governing class seems ill-equipped to manage.
- The hunger for a new kind of leader—moderate, principled, relatable—is palpable across the political spectrum, but no clear figure has yet emerged.
- Both Halperin and Sullivan see the coming years as a critical, possibly tumultuous, period for American democracy.
Listen for: Rich recent history, trenchant analysis, and unvarnished perspectives on American politics from two astute (and sometimes wry) observers.