← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Pundits Prematurely Say Trump is Done, Plus 2028 Dem Forecast with Hillary’s Former Campaign Manager
01:16:29
Mark Halperin opens today’s episode with his reported monologue unpacking the latest claims that Trump’s presidency is effectively over—from MS NOW pundits declaring he’s losing ground to Kara Swisher saying he won’t see the end of his term. He then identifies the real test for the president: how his handling of the economy, intra-party divisions, and voter confidence could shape GOP prospects in the midterms. Next, Halperin talks with Hillary Clinton’s former campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle about Trump’s standing with independents and moderates. They also examine the emerging 2028 Democratic field, highlighting Gavin Newsom’s frontrunner position and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s prospects to navigate both a primary and a general election. Finally, Erika Donalds joins Halperin for an in-depth discussion on the state of education in America and how AI and education policy are reshaping everyday life. She explains why teachers’ unions are losing influence, how school choice drives...
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- [00:00]
A
The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US Based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less Holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer Terms Apply Everybody welcome and happy holidays. I'm Mark halpern. This is NextUp. So glad to have you here. Love New York this time of year. The tree at Rockefeller center is up, but not decorated yet. That's what I call the anticipatory period. And very happy to be part of your conversation about what's next up around the country and politics and other things. I'm the editor in chief of the live Interactive video platform 2way and your guide to everything. Next up, those of you who are regular listeners know I call you Nexters. And I thank all you Nexters for being part of this program as we continue to grow really excited today to talk to two folks who know a lot about a lot. Patty Solis Doyle, Democratic strategist, you're in Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2008. Really one of the smartest people I've ever dealt with about what it means to run for president. Not just the technical knowledge, but the fingertip feel. And then Erica Donalds will be here. She's from the America First Policy Institute, chairs their program on educational opportunity. We're going to talk about about one of my passions, which is how to make schools better for every kid in America. Excited to talk about them both. They're both next up after this. But first, before they join us, I want to talk to you about the state of the Trump presidency. My reported monologues rely often on my making lots of calls on this topic. I almost never need to make any calls because people call me Trump people, anti Trump people, other journalists, analysts, citizens, business people. Everybody is fascinated always with what's the state of the American presidency, Whoever's president at any given moment, how are they doing? What are their political prospects? And when you've got a lame duck president and Donald Trump's a lame duck, by definition, he's not running. Again, it's a different calculus. But this president, kind of like Bill Clinton, is never done fighting, is never done trying to squeeze every drop, every moment out of his presidency. And so with almost a year into this second term, people are wondering how Is it going? And of course, Donald Trump's wondering that, too. So I'm going to tell you today what I think is the snapshot of this moment in Donald Trump's presidency and then what does that mean for what's next up as he approaches the holidays and then the State of the Union address and then not too long after that, the midterm elections. What is up with Donald Trump's presidency? Now, if you watch cable news or you go on social media, a lot of the conversation, because this is the nature of our discourse. The loudest and angriest voices on the national town square are going to give you two portrayals. One is Trump's cooked. His presidency's over. Every death defying act he's executed in the past is now failed and he's done politically. And of course, you know, they'd say it's like Houdini escapes from, you know, the straitjacket in the fish tank only so many times and eventually he drowns. And then Trump himself and the people around Trump will tell you, most successful president of all time, my guy and my North Star on questions like that is from Haley Barber, also a very smart person about American politics, was the head of the Republican Party and then governor of Mississippi. And one of the things he says is nothing in politics is ever as good or as bad as it seems. So Trump is not the best president of all time, but nor is he done and dusted politically, even though he is in a rough patch. And there's no doubt he is. Every public poll that's come out of late is a problem for him. We'll talk about that in a minute. Every Republican who's on the ballot next year is concerned. Maybe not everyone, but most of them, plenty of not hard for me to reach a House Republican candidate or office holder who's worried, who's worried about what the climate will be like next year. And what's at stake is certainly who's going to control the House of Representatives. But it's also maybe who controls the Senate. That's still a heavy lift for the Democrats, but it's also just about power in Washington and what Donald Trump can get done between now and the midterms. The new Congress. On the left, though, it's Groundhog Day. They've been predicting the political demise of Donald Trump for a decade, that he wouldn't win the Republican nomination after insulting the John McCain and the Pope and the Access Hollywood tape. And then of course, in his first term and then after he left office, just constant predictions and smart people in politics and media say, never again. Never going to predict that Donald Trump is done. But then there's the others who do predict it. Here's a headline from the Atlantic magazine by Jonathan Lemire, who covers the White House for the Atlantic. This is A1, please. And this is relatively restrained by the standards of the genre. The Trump steamroller is broken. The headline goes infighting, bad polls, party divisions, midterm fears. It's all back. And what Lemire says is, it's just like the first term, where, of course, Trump didn't win reelection. He was on Morning Joe, where he appears regularly on Thursday morning. And here's what. How Jonathan Lemire described his view, representing the Good folks at Ms. Now, of the Trump presidency. This is S4, please. Power. And with the help of Project 2025 and other matters, they came back with a game plan and experience to how to use the levers of government, the levers of power. And they did. They were a steamroller on nearly every issue for months. But that has really changed. We saw the voters deliver their verdict at the election a couple of weeks ago. We've just ticked. We ticked through the polls, getting worse for the president by the day. There's a real sense that he is distracted. He's lost focus. He is thinking about things like the East Wing rather than driving down prices, even. There's a hallmark of Trump 1.0, the first term. A lot of chaos and infighting that started up again. We've had a Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Vs. Susie Wiles feud in recent days. So that's a dark view of the Trump status, of the Trump presidency, suggesting infighting and chaos and. And political problems. Here's a darker view also from Ms. Now, this is former Biden press secretary Obama aide Jen Psaki with a darker view of the Trump presidency than lemire. This is S2, please.
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B
Every day, Trump seems to get more and more unpopular, more politically isolated, more reliant on the handful of sycophants he has left who are still willing to abuse their power on his behalf. So Donald Trump may be feeling kind of like a loner tonight. I mean, his political allies are deserting him, his poll numbers are tanking, and tonight he was forced to sign a bill to release the Epstein files, which I would note he did without a press pool there. It seems he's in a corner tonight weaker than he's ever been.
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A
Lonely in a corner weaker than he's ever been. That's darker than Lemire. Here's darkest yet, though, Kara Swisher, political pundit, tech writer Kara Swisher with keying off of the Epstein matter, she goes about the darkest place imaginable with her colleague Scott Galloway. Here's Kara Swisher S1 on where she thinks the Trump presidency is headed.
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B
Anyway, we'll see what happens. I think this, I just, I don't know.
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A
I feel like we're going to have President J.D. vance by the end of 2026.
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C
I get it.
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B
So, wait, hold on.
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A
You think this ends his presidency prematurely?
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C
Yes.
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B
He'll be sick. He'll be that. I do. I think he's not going to make.
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A
It to the end. Be careful what you wish for. I think J.D. vance is. I agree.
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C
Hello.
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A
All right. So Karis Wisher says the Epstein matter and maybe other stuff are so dire that Donald Trump will resign the office. I doubt he'll resign the office. Have to say, but we'll, we'll see. Now, that's the view on the left that this con. Con. Confluence of all these events have left Donald Trump weaker than he's ever been. And they don't see any escape. They think he's cornered. Now, if you think, though, that this snapshot view is just a view of the left, think again. Fox News did a big poll this week and the numbers for the president, including and especially on the economy, the number one issue for voters is in fact quite grim. I'm going to play for you a bit from Fox and Friends, but you may think you're watching Rachel Maddow. Here is FOX and Friends on their latest poll, S3, please. So it comes on the heels of brand new Fox News polls that reveal Americans are hurting financially. Only 25% saying they're currently satisfied with the U.S. economy. And part of that is because of inflation.
- [09:10]
B
We also went through this big Shutdown.
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C
More than 50% of Americans say that inflation is completely out of control.
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A
Yep. So who's to blame? Our polling shows 46% of Americans think they've been hurt by President Trump's economic policies. But the president insists he's trying to clean up the mess he inherited from the Biden administration. In that fox poll, only 15% of the respondents said Donald Trump's policies were helping them economically. That's, that's brutal. And, and again, it's not a partizan thing, it's not an Ms. Now thing or a CNN thing or a New York Times thing to say if Donald Trump's poll standing on the economy is on Election Day next year, what it is now Republicans will be wiped out. They'll lose control of the House and they could lose control of the Senate. And the President has a challenge. Unemployment numbers out this week. They were kind of mixed. A big job creation number this month, but the previous months were downgraded and unemployment's up. There's some positive signs in the economy, but there are a lot of negative signs too.
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C
Okay?
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A
And Donald Trump gave a speech this week where he kind of made fun of the concept of affordability being an issue for voters and continues to blame Joe Biden even though the polls show voters aren't blaming Joe Biden for the economy and continues to suggest things are going well. And again, make no mistake, some things in the economy are going pretty well. Stock market's doing well. And there are other things that are fine. But Donald Trump and his treasury secretary, his economic quarterback, Scott Bessant, they're talking about robust growth that we haven't seen yet. They're talking about getting inflation under control that we haven't seen. Now, for liberals who say this is doom, not just a rough spot, you gotta remember one of the most important metaphors ever created by a cartoonist, Charles Schultz, Charlie Brown and Lucy in the football, where Lucy puts the football down and then yanks it away as Charlie Brown tries to kick it. I don't know if it's the most overused metaphor in all politics, but it's right up there. But it's applicable here. Imagine a thousand MSNB, Ms. now anchors getting ready to kick a thousand footballs and a thousand Lucy's yanking them away. That's maybe what's happening here because they're definitely overstating the case. But there is a problem, as that Fox poll shows. Now, I've been asking lots of people, as I said, what is, what is Donald Trump's problem now politically? Why are the polls that going that way and what can he do about it? And again, talk to a lot of leading experts around the country. But I also get to talk to people on the two way platform where people call in from all over the country, all over the world and offer their point of view to me and to the folks I have on my programs there. And a gentleman was on the other day with a brilliant theory, just a brilliant theory. He said, you know, Trump's been president for less than a year, but Donald Trump, by being on camera a lot, by being on Truth, Social a lot, he creates solution that he's moving fast.
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C
Right? Right.
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A
He does stuff fast. When he wants something done, it happens fast. He's opposed to the Epstein disclosure bill and he's whipping against it and you know, saying he's going to primary any Republican who doesn't agree with him. And then bing, boom, bing, as Donald Trump would say, within five days, he's not only supporting the bill, but signing it. Okay, he moves fast. And so voters get the sense, this gentleman argued, interesting theory that he's not moving fast on the economy. Right. He's not fixing the economy. Even his tariff policy, which a lot of people think is actually hurting the economy, he says that's not a quick fix. That's going to take some time for the American people to reap the rewards. So if he can't move fast on this and he's downplaying the problems, that may, that may be just, that may be the realization not of Carrot Swisher's resignation fantasy, but it may be an endemic problem with not just Trump's rhetoric on the economy, but the economy itself, which, if it's like this next year, is a big problem for Republicans. Now, I'm always looking at the clock and I tend to go in the school of saying, as Yogi Berra would say, gets laid out there early, that people say, well, it doesn't matter if Gavin Newsom's ahead in the Democratic nomination fight because it's so early or yeah, it doesn't matter if the economy's not good now and Trump's numbers, poll numbers in the economy are bad because it's early. I actually think on the second point, certainly it's getting late. If the economy is not better by the second quarter of next year, it's a problem for Republicans, it's a problem for the president, not just because of the midterms, but because, and not just because of his so called legacy, but because of the reality of what does it mean to be a good president. Right? Turn the economy around. We're headed to the holiday season. I don't know how much is going to get done. And of course, the Epstein files are supposed to come out in December. Then January or February, we'll have the State of the Union. And there's a massive effort going on now, consulting by the White House with members of Congress, people within the administration, businesses, all sorts of people, what can they do to make things better? But the reality is, for all the focus that people in the media put and pundits put on, does he feel people's pain? Is he talking about the economy in the right way? Is he being too insensitive to the fact that people are hurting? People aren't gonna vote Republican because Donald Trump makes them feel better with what he says. They want to see changes. And the real challenge is what are the policies that could change things. The president supports taking money collected from the tariffs and paying some Americans, maybe not everybody, 2,000 bucks directly. Lots of problems with that. Congress is against it for the most part, and it would be inflationary. Scott Bessant said, well, we'll give people the 2000, but hopefully they'll save it, not spend it. Good luck with that. And then, of course, they talk about health care because they know Republicans know health care is a big political vulnerability. But that's not going to happen anytime soon. Anything that changes in healthcare that would really have a significant impact on people's sense of costs and costs for health care, it's going to take a while and politically difficult to do. So. The president's in a prop and a problem. There's a lot of attention paid this week to some of the divisions between the president and his party, where he appears not to have the sway he did. And presidents lose sway when their poll numbers go down. Right. Politicians get the power of polls. So the president wanted Republicans to get rid of the filibuster. Didn't happen. He didn't want the Epstein disclosure bill to pass. He was forced to capitulate on that. He's tried to get Republicans in places like Indiana to redistrict their states, to potentially pick up House seats in Indiana and a few other states. They've declined to go along with him. There are some other examples. But the president still has a lot of unity, however, within his party. However, if we go into next year and his poll numbers are like they were in that Fox poll. And again, the Fox poll is not an outlier. You see the same trend lines on the president's standing on the economy in other public polls. You see it in a lot of private polls. If that's the same next year, he's. He's going to have a problem, and one of his problems going to be Republicans will start to abandon him. Republicans who are on the ballot. And we've seen this with other unpopular presidents. And let's be honest, the president's unpopular. You see the challenge they face when, if you're a Senate candidate or a House candidate and your choice is to save your job by distancing yourself from the president or stay with him, you distance yourself. That's just the nature of political beast. And a lot of Republicans are poised to do that. They're not doing it yet, but I talked to A number of Republican consultants this week who said time is now for them to start fixing the economy. Not talking about fixing the economy, not blaming Joe Biden, but to start to actually change things. And the polls are quite clear. People just have no, have no patience for Donald Trump saying this is Joe Biden's fault. He chose to run, he took over. They've got a few months, but they don't have forever. And the real divisions that they could face will dwarf what we saw over Epstein, what we've seen over some of these other fights where they've really not abandoned the president. Now, AI, AI is just a massive issue and it's being discussed every day everywhere in government and state government, federal government, and it relates to all this stuff because AI is a driver of the American economy. Now, some of the most successful companies in America and in the world are these new AI companies that are raising massive amounts of money. Nvidia this week, real bright spot for the economy and a turnaround in the economy. Otherwise, four bad days in the stock market. Their report of earnings was a massive thing. The President this week spending a lot of time on AI at this big conference with the Saudis in Washington. So if you're talking about what's driving the positives in the American economy right now, in the markets, in the perception that America is leading the world in countries like Saudi Arabia wanting to deal with the United States, it's a stock market driven by AI and it's that great American advantage that we've had in all these tech booms. We saw it in the 90s with Silicon Valley and then the social media companies. It's a great American advantage. And so if you're trying to think as an American president or a Commerce Secretary, Treasury Secretary, what's going to drive this economy to a positive place, you look at the successful American companies. The problem with AI is threefold. Number one in, in, in, I don't know, short, medium or long term. But over time, on the trajectory we were on, based on everybody I've talked to and what I see, AI is going to help corporations, particularly the companies that make money off of it directly. It's going to help the wealthy, but it's not going to do very much to help people who are middle class, working class. And in fact, of course, it could hurt them because we've already seen quietly job layoffs. Companies don't want to brag about laying people off because of AI, but we're already starting to see it. So number one, AI is, is not a total fix. For the economy, particularly for the voters. Number two, AI scares the heck out of people. Scares the heck out of people. And as smart as David Sachs and other people in the administration are about AI, no one has the sense that, that the government understands this. The Trump administration is talking about how to regulate it, but not, not constrain it. Right. And that's a big problem because there's a, there's a part of the unease with the economy is a sense that nobody's in charge, nobody's fixing it, nobody's correcting what's wrong with the economy now. And AI is an extraordinary, powerful tool and I'm more bullish on it than a lot of people. But, but in the short term, at least before it's integrated safely into people's lives, it's a huge threat to people and their sense of instability and their sense that people might be getting rich off of this, but it's not them. And then finally, whenever, whatever the economic benefits of AI are going to be to revolutionize the American economy beyond the stock prices of these American leaders in the field, ain't happening before the midterms. We're not going to see a broad based economic recovery and revolutionizing health care and revolutionizing production, manufacturing, services. I mean, there'll be massive changes between now and the midterms, but you're talking about fundamentally changing the economy. Not going to happen. And so to some extent, it's a distraction for the companies, to some extent it's a distraction for the White House. They need to focus on AI. But if you're talking about Trump's economic record, not his rhetoric, but his record between now and the midterms, AI is not the solution. Now, the Democratic Party is, is, doesn't have a ton of ideas, their brand is not doing well, they don't have any leaders. All the problems we've talked about here, but at this point on this trajectory, they're good enough to win back the House, they're good enough to maybe win back the Senate, and they're good enough to keep Donald Trump on the political rope. So will see, the tale will be told. I think most specifically, most clearly, most in most detail, the State of the Union. The American people watch the State of the Union, the ones with open minds, and say, yeah, this guy gets it. This guy's got a theory of the case about how to fix the economy, some specific ideas, and are we starting to feel it by the spring? That's going to be the test. So don't take the snapshot and say Trump is doomed. But don't be in denial. If you like Trump, don't be in denial and say everything's fine. He is, in fact, the greatest president of all time and this, this term is the most successful ever. The answer lies somewhere in between, and the tale will be told by how Donald Trump navigates all this in the weeks and months ahead. All right, that's my reported monologue. Grateful to you for listening. I'd love to know what you think about what I said. Send me an email about Today's report to nextup halperinmail.com and we want the audience to grow. So you need to do some stuff and you need to tell your friends and families and your Eminem what they need to do. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can watch all the episodes there and get exclusive bonus content. Our YouTube channel, YouTube.com NextUp Halpern and of course, the program is also available in the audio only version, so you can't see what kind of shirt I'm wearing, but you can hear my voice and our voices of our guests. Subscribe to this program. Next up with Mark Halpern. Wherever you get your podcasts, turn on the download so you get every episode automatically. And you'll be the first to hear about all the new content that gets loaded there again, YouTube, podcasts, et cetera, and then, of course, their clips on your finer social media platforms. All right, quick break right now, but then up next, Democratic strategist Patty Solis Doyle joins us. She ran Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2008 and she knows a lot about about how to run for president. Patty Solis Doyle is next up. Attention, homeowners in America, you need to listen to this. The FBI is now warning about a type of real estate fraud on the rise. It's called title theft and your equity is the target. Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on a single document. Then they use a fake notary stamp and they file the document with the county, just like that, on record. They own your home using your ownership. They can take out loans against your equity or even sell your property. And you won't know about any of this until foreclosure or collection notices show up in your mailbox. That's why I'm partnering with Home Title Lock, so you can protect your equity. And find out today if you're already a victim, Use my promo code mark, @hometitleglock.com and you'll get a free title history report and a free trial of their million dollar triple lock protection. That's 24,7 monitoring of your title records, urgent alerts to any changes. And if fraud does occur, their US based restoration team will spend up to $1 million to fix it. Don't be a victim. Protect your home Equity today. That's hometitle lock.com promo code mark hometitlelock.com promo code mark all right, next up and now Patty Solis Doyle. She's a longtime Democratic strategist, ran Hillary Clinton' campaign in 2008 and knows as much about presidential politics as anyone living in America. Patti, welcome back to NextUp. Thank you for being here.
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B
Thanks for having me.
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A
Mark, I want you to weigh in first on what I talked about earlier in the program, which is President Trump's political standing. My general view is it's not as bad as Ms. Now anchors think, but it's not as good as the president claims. How would you appraise his capacity to get stuff done now based on his political standing?
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B
Yeah, I mean, the number of times that I've sort of written him off in terms of his political standing, whether it was, you know, criticizing John McCain's war record or the grab them by the, you know what stuff like I, I'm, I'm very sort of loathe to make any predictions on this case because he's, I thought, you know, Bill Clinton was Freddy Krueger is like you try and shoot him and stab him and he just keeps coming back. And Trump is, is tenfold of that. But I do see a shift without question. And I think it's a combination of a few things. Certainly the Epstein files saga, the focusing a lot of time on foreign affairs rather than the America first agenda that he has campaigned on more than 10 years and then obviously, first and foremost, the economy and affordability and how real folks are feeling at home. And I think that combination has really caused a, I don't know, I wouldn't call it a significant breach within his sort of the MAGA base, the die hard 38 to 40% that will be for him no matter what. But I think there's an erosion there. And if you combine that with independents who don't like any of this, I think his political standing is taking a hit for sure. And as we go into the midterm elections, as you know, Mark, when you're running for office, it's about me. It's about me winning my race. And if I have to distance myself from the president, I will distance myself from the president. So I'm not going to say he can't get anything done because of the shift. But he has proven he can get things done no matter what the political environment is. He has really effectively used his authority of the executive. But it's not great. And let's see how the rest of the year unfolds. I think he is taking a hit right now.
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A
Yeah. My colleagues and the pundit class spend a lot of time saying he needs to feel their pain, he needs to acknowledge how people are feeling. But to me it's really more, can he actually turn the economy around? He's not going to talk people into thinking the economy is good. So you talk about Trump, but also just in general because you've worked for lots of politicians who've had the same challenge. Is it possible to turn the economy around? I always hear Republicans now say, well, you know, presidents get too much credit for the economy when it's good and not enough and too much to blame when it's bad. But it seems like people are expecting him to do what he said he would do. Is it, is it possible for him to change people's perceptions by making the economy better? And is the conventional wisdom, right, that he's got to do that relatively soon in the new year to impact the midterms?
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B
Yeah, well, I don't, I don't want to undermine the ability to feel voters pain. I mean, I think Bill Clinton was a master at it. And it's what won him the election in 92, the ability to actually empathize with folks. And it's, it's what actually hurt Biden in his reelection in 2024 when he was running, you know, telling people that the economy is great, you just don't understand. It's great. It's, it's going in the right direction. You just don't understand. People don't like that. As we saw in the election results, you can't flip the economy on day one. It doesn't work that way. And I'm no economist, obviously, but I've worked in an administration. You can't flip it in one day, which is why you can't tell people that on day one prices are going to come down. It's just that there are a lot of different factors.
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C
So.
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B
I do think there is time between now and the midterm elections for sure. And we see him or the administration try and put some policies in place that will have immediate effect, but.
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C
I.
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B
Don'T know if it will like reversing some of these tariffs on grocery prices, a 50 year mortgage that is just not realistic. Maybe Reversing the tariffs will have an immediate effect, but I don't think it will have a long term effect.
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A
Yeah. I want to ask you three questions about Epstein and what's gone on and what is going on. First of all, the president points out, Republicans point out that when Joe Biden was president, you didn't hear Democrats clamoring at all, really. Certainly not en masse for disclosure to support the accusers and the victims. What's the argument, what's the response to that criticism of the party?
- [30:27]
B
This is politics, pure and simple. And you can see by a near unanimous vote both in the House and the Senate to release these files that this is where the politics of this decision stands. You cannot, With a straight face, not be moved and compelled by the victims and their stories. And the fact that they have been fighting for this for as long as they have been fighting for this, and the idea that you would be against that, obviously this is a political podcast is a bad political move. So I am sure that if these files are released, we still don't know that they will be. I'm not certain that it will be done in any near time frame, but I think, and there may not be any evidence of criminal activity of folks, because the DOJ has looked at this already, but many folks, both on the Democratic side and the Republican side, I'm sure will be sullied, will be embarrassed. It's not going to be good for anybody.
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A
Yeah. So just to go back to the question I asked you, you said there are politics involved and of course there is. I'll take small issue. Respectfully, I don't consider this to be a show about politics. I consider it to be a program about America. Politics comes up. But anyway, when I come and talk.
- [32:06]
B
On it, I talk about politics.
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A
You talk about America too. Again, the victims have spoken out for years. So you had Democrats, men and women in the Biden administration who cared a lot about these, who care a lot about these types of issues. You have members of Congress who do. So again, what's the explanation why for four years as Joe Biden was president, he could have made these documents public? What's the explanation of why the Democratic Party didn't?
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B
I don't think there was a clamoring at the time for it to be released or exposed. The big factor here is that during the campaign and many of the Trump supporters publicly said these files need to be released.
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A
But why didn't, but why didn't the grassroots, the Democratic Party say that in, in 2020, 2019 and 20, 20.
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B
I can't answer that. I don't, I don't know. It wasn't as a, it wasn't as big of an issue then because remember, we were dealing with a pandemic.
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C
We were.
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B
There were a lot of other top of mind issues. But I think, I think that's why has come to a real head now. And that's because folks were promised that they were going to be released and then they weren't released.
- [33:37]
A
Okay. Larry, Larry Summers hasn't been accused of any crime, hasn't been indicted, and yet he's lost, as best I can tell, every professional affiliation he has because of his appearance in the first release from Congress contained emails that showed he had a very close and practically contemporaneous relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. If you got a call from a client who said, patty, my name has never come up in the Epstein matter, but I have reason to believe that it's going to come up in the release of the documents. I don't want to lose my professional life, my reputation. What can I do? What could that person do in advance of the release?
- [34:16]
B
That's a very good question, Mark. You always ask such interesting questions. First of all, in my firm, we don't work for individuals, so that would never actually.
- [34:27]
A
Okay, so let's say it was the CEO of a company who was your client.
- [34:31]
B
Yeah, this is the fall of Larry Summers was swift over this. You know, Jeffrey Epstein was a, A sick, really individual who committed serious, serious crimes and who I think many people out there felt never got what he deserved in terms of justice. Right. So I think, I think that's a real issue. So if my attitude is release these files, I think first and foremost that's what the victims are asking for, for their own justice and that ships are going to fall where they may. And honestly, if. Again, Larry Summers didn't commit any crime other than truly.
- [35:46]
A
Right. So, so if, if a client. Horrible judgment. If, if someone called and said, you know, you represent Acme Industries and our CEO says he didn't commit any crimes. His relationship with, with Jeffrey Epstein was similar to Larry Summers. They hung out together. My client had no knowledge, you know, your client had no knowledge. What would you tell them to do? Because now they've got a little time. Right. This thing, this thing I think snuck up to some extent on Larry Summers. I can't imagine he anticipated this happening. So what could someone do if they were in that position, no crime committed. And let's say for this hypothetical, they're very remorseful that they had the relationship with Epstein. What would you recommend that they do to try to avoid losing their job, losing their reputation?
- [36:33]
B
Yeah, it's a difficult call because there's a playbook for these sort of things, a crisis playbook. Get out in front of it, reveal everything. All of the sort of the Crisis 101 or Political Crisis 101 of the things you should do.
- [36:51]
A
Right.
- [36:52]
B
I am sure that there's just an absence of information if you're a CEO or a person that you think you're in the files, but you just don't know. Right. You just don't know and you don't know which of the files are going to be released. So it's a tough call whether you come out ahead of it or whether you just wait and see what actually happens. So I think I would fall on the. Let's wait and see.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah. And, and what would you, what kind of things would you prepare in advance?
- [37:28]
B
Oh, just, you know, you're, you're obviously, again, this is sort of a playbook on crisis Prepare a holding statement. You have to just, just the level of how awful it, it is whether or not you do an interview, whether or not prepare that. All of possible questions that you may get answers, answers for them, get all the facts, all, you know, stuff that one does when they're in elevate.
- [37:56]
A
All right, last, last question for me on this, which is I get asked all the time. Maybe you do too. Why was Donald Trump so opposed to disclosure? Well, you know, if he claims this is a Democratic scandal, if he claims, you know, correctly, that he cut off his reputation with Jeffrey Epstein, as best we can tell. What's your theory about why he was so opposed to disclosure, if you have one?
- [38:20]
B
I mean, I, my assumption is he's. His name is in those files and he doesn't, I don't believe he committed any crime of any kind. I just. Nobody wants to be in these files and nobody wants their name released. I'm sure.
- [38:37]
A
Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about 2028, because you're just, you're just so knowledgeable about all this. And I want to start by 2024. I'm sorry, 28. 28. 28, 28. You're so knowledgeable about it. So the first thing I want to ask you about is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who in my world, people are very split about how formidable a candidate she'll be. Some people tell me she's a first year candidate. Some Democrats tell me, you know, really it's not a real thing here's two people who think it's real. First is, this is Mike Donlin, who worked for Joe Biden. He was one of Joe Biden's top political advisors, longtime experienced person in Democratic Party. He's taken a little bit of a hit in some quarters because he was the one saying Joe Biden should stay in the race, and to this day says Joe Biden should have stayed in. But here's what Mike Donlon said when asked about the 2028 field. Of the people that are being talked about now, or maybe people that aren't being talked about now, who is the most natural successor to President Biden?
- [39:38]
B
I think one of the people who.
- [39:39]
A
Is really, I think, is underestimated.
- [39:44]
C
Who.
- [39:45]
A
Would have a really powerful candidacy, would be Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. I think she could win a general election, though.
- [39:52]
C
Yes.
- [39:55]
A
Okay. And here's another political analyst who's got pretty good knowledge and judgment about presidential campaigns. Donald Trump, in an interview with Selena Zito, said that of all the prospective candidates, she has the, quote, best political instincts. And he talked about how he was advising Joe Crowley, who's the former Democratic congressman from New York, who was a pretty big figure in the House Democratic Party and warned Crowley, he says, when AOC was running against him and beat him in the primary. Trump says he said to Crowley, you better be careful. I saw her. She's out there hugging and kissing voters. I said, are you going to debate with her? And he said, no, I'm not going to. I'm way up in the polls. And Trump says he's told Crowley, all right, but I just think you have to be careful with her because she's got talent. So what's your current appraisal? Do you share the view of Mike Donlon and the president that this is the most talented candidate in the field and someone who could win a general election?
- [40:53]
B
I definitely agree. She's got talent and she's got charm, and she's got really, really good political instincts. I don't know if she's got the most talent in the field or the current field or the field that people assume is shaping up to be, but she's, I think, definitely in the top three. Can she win a general election? I don't know. As you and I have talked before, I am really, really looking forward to a large and rigorous primary season post the midterm elections. And I'm very much in the camp of let a thousand flowers bloom. I want to see her run. I want to see how she does. I want to See how she does in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, the true toss up states. I think what we learned from the elections just this past November in Virginia and in New Jersey and in New York, that it matters to have candidates that speak to the voters of where they're running. In Virginia and New Jersey you saw a much more moderate approach to their agendas and their policies. And in New York you saw a much more progressive approach to Mamdani's agenda and policies. All politics is local. The key to a general election candidate is can you speak to a broader, you know, range of voters? I don't know if AOC can do that.
- [42:51]
A
Has she asked you for advice about running for president?
- [42:53]
B
No, she has not.
- [42:54]
A
All right, let's give it here. If she said, what are the three things? If she said to you, Patty, I don't want to just win the nomination, I want to want to win the general, I don't want to let my party down. What are the three things I should do? Top priorities between now and the end of next year. So By January of 27, when this camp presidential will be in pretty full swing, what are the three things you think she should do to not just win the nomination but to be positioned to win a general?
- [43:19]
B
So in a general election, obviously, you know, because this country is, is, is, is drastically divided, you know, you're really fighting for that 10% in the middle, who's not D, who's not R, who's independent. So I think the first, and this is what I would say to everybody running is what, what are you going to say? What are you going to do? What are you going to make a priority that appeals to that, you know, 10 to 15% of independents. Yeah, that's what you really need to focus on. And when you're running in a primary, you can't make less of what you're going to tell independents in the general. And that's tricky, That's a tricky thing. So that's the first thing I would tell her to do. The second thing I would tell her to do is raise as much money as you possibly can. She is uniquely talented in being able to do that through digitally. I would find ways to outpace potential competitors through other means, whether it's, you know, know, large donors, bundling, all of that stuff, which he seems to, you know, not like to do. But I think it's necessary when you're running for President of the United States and in a general election for sure and I that, that go into red states, go into purple states and Campaign there.
- [45:03]
A
Yep. One of the things I so respect about your knowledge of this topic of running for president is, you know, all the sort of mechanical things. And yes, things have changed. And not running for president today is not identical to 2008, but you understand the mechanics. But you also have this, as few do, because of what you've done. You have like this fingertip feel for just kind of the rhythms of it for, you know, sort of where the, where the slippery, the black ice is on the road and where the bumper cars hit the other bumper cars. And so one of the biggest factors will be what states vote early. Right. What is the Democratic Party's nominating calendar? Back when you did things, it was the same for a long time. Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina. And that meant go there a lot and build up JITs and call the politicians on their birthdays and their wives and husbands birthdays. Right.
- [45:53]
B
I.
- [45:53]
A
What would you be doing now if you were working for a presidential candidate about that? Would you be trying to influence the Democratic Party's choice of states so that states that were good for your candidate would go earlier? Or is that in the current world not a possible thing to do? Because I can tell you this, when Hillary Clinton was involved, she and her team worried quite a bit about the order of the states and tried to use all the possible influence. I don't get the sense that's happening very much. And I'm wondering if you think if you were working for somebody, you would make that a priority.
- [46:25]
B
I think there are so many other priorities that it's probably not on a lot of folks radar screen. I also think that the DNC is a little bit, you know, still trying to get its sea legs back from the 2024 loss, I think. So I think potential candidates should be very, very, you know, concentrated on this. I don't think they are now. I think they will. Yeah, but I would right now what I would be doing, particularly as we're heading into the 2026 midterm election, is these, you know, quote unquote front runners, people like AOC and people like Gavin Newsom and people like Josh Shapiro. So let's see where they go, go out there and campaign in all of those early states. Let's see who, which candidates, ask them to come to campaign with them. Let's see how they do. They really should use this as a pre primary exercise. Go out there in the states where. Go to Iowa, go to New Hampshire, go to South Carolina, go to Nevada, go to all of the states that are in the Running to be in the first four.
- [47:45]
C
And see how they do.
- [47:46]
A
Yeah. One more topic. I'm alone on this, but I'm not sure that means I'm definitely wrong. I think Gavin Newsom has established a commanding position and if you look at the history of your party, the front runner, with one exception, I'm sorry to say, it was Hillary 2008. The front runner, when there's been a front runner has always been the nominee. Always. A couple cycles there weren't front runners, but when there's been a front runner, the front runners won since Mondale. And I'm wondering.
- [48:13]
B
So close in 08. So close.
- [48:14]
A
Yeah. So close. So closer than people remember. I'm just wondering, just wondering if you at all share my view that if no one slows him down, it's possible that when we get to after the midterms and he's got all this fundraising and all this name idea and all this experience and media connections and hiring great staff, that people will say, oops, we should have slowed him down. We didn't slow him down in 2025 or 2026. Is that at least an arguable point to your mind or no?
- [48:46]
C
You know what, Mark?
- [48:47]
B
I have, I agree with you 100%. And I've been talking about Gavin Newsom for, oh, my gosh, a long time. I think he has that innate political talent. I think he's good looking, I think he is smart, I think he has good political instincts. And then what he's done, you know, this Prop 50 was not about redistricting. It was about fighting Trump and, you know, fighting back. Fire with fire. And, you know, you know, that Trump's attempt to sort of rig the midterm elections by doing this mid decade redistricting in Texas and other Republican states. And that's how Gavin Newsom framed it. And it was an out, you know, a huge victory in Cal. And people were telling me, no, Californians are not going to vote for a region. I'm like, yes, they are. That's how Gavin Newsom framed it, as a, you know, fighting Trump and using Trump's, the tools in Trump's toolbox to do it. And I think that's what people want and need right now. Now the, you know, the person who knows presidential politics and what works, what doesn't and what you need and what's the perfect candidate, a governor from California does not strike anybody, I think, who works in Democratic politics as someone who could win the nomination and then win the general. But I think he's proven himself to be quite formidable and I'm interested to see what happens in the next, in this next year. But I think he's, I think, I think he's the front runner right now, honestly.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah. And then it's just in a word, you agree with me that someone might want to consider trying to slow him down, some Democrat might want to consider trying to slow him down.
- [50:46]
B
That's a really maybe, but that's a really tough proposition to try and slow the guy down who's, who's fighting Trump at every, it's hard, it's a, it's a hard place to be. I don't think you can do it right now.
- [50:59]
A
Yeah. Brilliant. Patty Sully, Stoyle, happy holidays to you and your lovely family. Very grateful everybody who's very, very grateful to you for being here. And we look forward to talking to you. More about all this coming up later in the year and next year and beyond. So, Patty, thank you. Next up is Erica Donalds. We're going to talk about education in America. That's next up. You need to ask yourself, are you being lied to? Wall street insists the only way to have enough money to retire is to put your life savings into a 401k or an IRA and then roll the dice with it in the Wall street casino. But if that were true, why does studies show the average American following that advice will outlive their savings by a staggering 10 years? And even the man who invented the 401k says it's, it's a monster that should be destroyed. Now it's time to get the truth and discover a better way to grow and protect your money. Bank on yourself is the proven retirement plan. Alternative banks and Wall street desperately hope you never hear about it gives you guaranteed predictable growth and in retirement income, tax free retirement income, built in inflation protection and much deserved and needed peace of mind. You can get a free report that reveals how you can bank on yourself and enjoy tax free retirement income, guaranteed growth and control of your own money. Just go to bankonyourself.com mark to get your free report again. That's bankonyourself.com mark one more time, bankonyourself.com mark all right, next up, one of my passions, you know, as people know, I'm a foodie, right? I like to eat great food. I know all the good restaurants are pretty much everywhere and I don't understand why other people aren't foodies. I just don't get it. Like food, basic love, great food. Same with being passionate about Saving our education system. The schools in this country are horrible and people can disagree about why. But I don't understand why there's anybody for whom their first priority, their top civil rights issue is to make sure that every kid in this country can go to a great school. And you can't be happy with the status quo. You just can't be. You, you can like pieces of the status quo, but you can't say, yeah, everything's fine. We need to tinker the record is clear. Decades of failure, letting down our kids. How unfair. How unfair in this country that we let some kids go to horrible schools. So I couldn't be happier to be joined now by Erica Donald. She's the America First Policy Institute chair of their education program and she also says she's a nexter. So couldn't be happier to have her here. Erica Donalds welcome.
- [53:35]
C
Thanks so much for having me.
- [53:36]
A
Mark, I've got so many questions for you because as I said, this is my passion. Let's start with this. Why are the teachers unions in this country so powerful? Why do they exercise so much control and negative power over our schools?
- [53:52]
C
It's partly because the teachers unions took advantage of a vacuum of leadership. I think generations before me were not really paying attention to what was going on in the schools. There's a lot going on in the world, a lot going on in politics. And they took full advantage of being able to push their ideology onto our youth and shape the future of politics with their political donations, with carrots and sticks and all of the public funding that goes into that. They have really been successful in something that we have not in influencing next generation to left wing ideologies.
- [54:24]
A
All right, so there's lots to do with school reform. But to me, one big thing is limiting the power of the unions we saw during COVID 19. They put their own interests ahead of the kids we see with their opposition to lots of types of education reform. So I'm not against teachers and I don't think the unions should be abolished. But what are concrete steps that the federal government or governors could take or local people could take to limit the ability of the teachers unions to call far too many of the shots in our schools?
- [54:55]
C
Well, school choice is the number one way that we break the power of the teachers union. Many of the schools of choice are not actually unionized and that allows for some competition, not just for parents to choose the school that best fit their students needs, but also for teachers to compete and find ways that they could maybe have better working conditions, teach in the way that they feel is better for them as a professional. And that's one way. In Florida, we also passed paycheck protection, which means that taxpayers are no longer subsidizing the deduction of union dues by school districts. I mean, we sign up for all kinds of subscriptions, right. Why shouldn't the unions have to go directly to their members and be held accountable with the union dues that are coming directly out of their accounts, not out of their paychecks before teachers ever receive the money? There are lots of reforms that we're doing, including dismantling the Department of Education to break down the power of the teachers unions. But ultimately, a free market is what's going to solve this problem long term.
- [55:51]
A
Yeah. The tragedy for our kids was Michigan, years ago, tried to pass a school choice piece of legislation and on the ballot, and it failed. And it scared a lot of Republicans, a lot of people who believed in choice for kids. It scared a lot of them into fighting as a political issue. But Governor DeSantis and others, now we're in kind of a second wave where people are trying to fight for school choice. Explain to people who don't know, how does it work? How does that competition get created? And why would. Why does that make public schools better? If you. If you allow money to follow kids to. Whether they're. Whether magnet schools, charter schools, parochial schools, how does that make public schools better?
- [56:33]
C
Well, we believe in capitalism, right? And the free market and competition. However, over the last 100 years, parents have been locked into where they live is where their children go to school. In states like Florida and 17 other states where universal choice is now the norm, parents get an account, the money that would have otherwise followed their child to the local public school. The parent gets to use that money to. To choose a private school, maybe pay for homeschool expenses, online courses, tutoring, etc. It makes parents into consumers and allows schools to then compete for those dollars. We're seeing in places like Florida, Arizona, where this is more developed schools are competing, including public schools that are creating new programs, magnet programs, in introducing classical education into the public school district in order to compete with the private options that parents now have the agency to pay for.
- [57:23]
A
Right. But you do have the challenge, as you well described it. It means that the current bureaucrats and school boards who run these failed systems have to rise to the occasion. Right. They haven't risen to the occasion up till now, but they have to say, well, we're going. The market pressure, the competition is such we need to up our game. We need to change our rules. We can fire bad teachers and principals. We need to improve our education. So kids and parents want to come to our schools. What gives you faith that they are ready to up their game? Rather than just having a tale of two cities where the smart parents and the ones who really are aware of how to give their kids opportunity, take all their money away from the private, the public schools and the public schools collapse. How can you be sure that won't happen?
- [58:04]
C
Let me tell you about Miami Dade County. This is the fourth largest school district in the country. Urban school district, majority minority, majority low income, majority English as a second language. 75% of their students are attending a school that is not their zone school. And assuming that of the 25%, 10 to 15% chose the school that they're zoned for. We're talking about in a district that has embraced school choice, nearly 90% of families actually making an active decision about where and how their child should be educated. That is the future, that is the future of education in this country. We just received polling that over 80% of Americans, both Republicans and Democrats, believe that parents should decide how and where their children are educated. This has become an 8020 issue. Good policy will follow and as parents become consumers, more competition, transparency and accountability will also result.
- [58:57]
A
What so embarrasses me for the guardians of the status quo is every time an urban school system makes slots available in charter schools, poor parents line up in the hundreds and the thousands to get the slots. And you would think that people who are guardians of the status quo, the bureaucrats, the Democratic politicians and the teachers unions would say, huh, look at all this interest in something different and we better change. But it, it doesn't spur them to change. Doesn't spur them to change. My friend Ryan Gusky, I don't know if you know Ryan, but he, he has the largest pack in the country that supports candidates for school board who believe in markets, solutions to our failing schools. Why isn't there more money Devry's efforts notwithstanding, why isn't there more money in the, in the, in the legal side of things? There was a, there was a group of Democrats who formed an organization to, to try to use the courts for this. Why isn't there a, somewhere? And I've, I've advocated this, but I don't know why it doesn't exist. There needs to be a 24 hour war room with hundreds of millions of dollars in it to fund legal challenges. Do public relations create content? Why isn't there more Money behind making the changes that you believe in.
- [60:09]
C
Well, there is more and more support for this, as you stated, more organizations coming in, including America First Policy Institute. Our legal team is on top of a lot of these cases that are going to continue to expand school choice in the states. But it's not a glamorous issue, right? It hasn't been in the past, only really since COVID has it come into the forefront. And we've seen this hockey stick of school choice programs passing. But of course, the unions and their allies are suing in all of these states to block parents from having education options. However, we have seen on the political spectrum the Democrats shying away from this issue because they know that even their own constituents want education choice. We now have federal tax credit that I believe is going to be available even in blue states. So I think we're going to see this just like the trans issue to be a radical issue on the left that a lot of moderate Democrats are not going to want to touch. And that's going to give us an open door to continue to push these policies in every state.
- [61:05]
A
Do you think much about the power within the two main teachers unions? And is it possible that somebody could become head of the union? Not like Randy Weingarten, who's a guardian of the status quo, but could we? Could we see someone build political support within the two main teachers unions for change, or is that not possible?
- [61:24]
C
I really think that they are on the downturn in terms of their political power. Brandi Weingarten has not done them any favors. She's out there at these radical rallies on every other issue besides education. They showed who they truly were during COVID when they didn't want to come to work, when the American people were working and needed a place for their children to go and get educated. I think that they have lost their power. They're not going to be able to gain it back no matter what Mom Donnie version of Randy Weingarten comes up and tries to take power. The school choice movement is so strong and so across the board support with Democrats and Republicans and we're gaining steam. And the more competition that parents have access to, the more quality and assessments that we show the results on student performance. I think we are unstoppable when it comes to establishing education freedom in every state in America.
- [62:17]
A
I'm doing a little research while we talk, because that's how I do it. But while I do that, how do you use AI in your own life? What kind of things do you do personally and Professionally with AI.
- [62:27]
C
AI definitely is part of my everyday use. I use it for research, I use it for establishing outlines, I use it for getting information, for helping to check some of my kids homework. I just think it's an incredible tool for efficiency. It's probably saved me from hiring a whole staff member under my organization because it's, it's made me so efficient as a person. It has incredible, incredible applications for education, especially in the areas where students have gaps and, and individualizing, hyper individualizing, if you will, reading and mathematics skills that our students so desperately need. So I'm a huge advocate of using it responsibly in education as well.
- [63:10]
A
What about in the Donald's household? How do you guys use it at home?
- [63:14]
C
Oh, my husband sends me every contract that he has to look at and says run this through your AI agents and tell me what changes should be made. But I'm a CPA also by trade, but I use it a lot for that kind of thing and ideas, finding information. I can't imagine people who don't use it. I tell people the day that you use AI is the first day you will use it every single day from then on. And I'm just a big evangelist when it comes to AI and helping make our lives easier.
- [63:43]
A
I am too. But I have to say I ask almost every guest on the show about it and we have tons of people who come on who say they're not really using it. So I'm with you. Well, I'll help, I'll help evangelize it. Here's what I was researching while you were answering, but I was listening too, because I can multitask. This is my big education idea. I've got others, but this is the one I'm most into right now. You know, what state pays its teachers the most and how much? Public school teachers. Any idea? I don't mean to put you on the spot.
- [64:10]
C
I would say New York probably, yeah.
- [64:12]
A
California 101,000. Mississippi is last, 53,000. But second to last is your state of Florida. $54,000 a year. And I know a teacher who lives there and I can confirm. Here's my idea. Some Governor, maybe Ron DeSantis of the Free state of Florida, some governor should, should pay teachers double the state that pays the most. You'd have to come up with money, but it's not that much money. So Florida should say, okay, California is 100, we're going to do 200,000 a year. Because to me one of the big problems in education is it's hard to get good public school teachers. They're paying off the supplies out of their own pocket and they're making, in your state, $54,000 a year if you paid them 200. Imagine the people who'd want to teach public school in Florida. What better way to. To help public school kids than to attract a class of people who do it for 200,000 a year and, you know, put a tax on whatever oil or, I don't care, cigarettes or gum, whatever. What do you think of my idea for one state to do it and then other states to compete for good teachers would have to do it too. What do you think of my idea?
- [65:21]
C
Well, our starting salaries have made a lot of progress. Governor DeSantis led that effort. However, I think as a taxpayer and a parent, I would pay a great teacher $200,000 a year. I don't believe in across the board teacher increases. Unfortunately, as much as I appreciate the work that teachers do, we still have only about half of our students who are reading and doing math proficiently. And we need better quality teachers and we need to be able to reward them. As you know, I served on the school board. I fought the unions in my very red district who just refused to allow us to reward good teachers and to pay people more for the more difficult positions. I think we do exactly what you're talking about, but through free market and school choice and not necessarily a mandate from above. That is going to give across the board reasons because we've seen that happen and it not result in better student outcomes, unfortunately.
- [66:11]
A
Right. Well, let me, let me make my plan clear. I don't want to pay the crappy teachers there now 200,000. I want to figure out who's a good teacher, however that can be done. And you know, the teachers union acts like they're different category of species. In my company, in any place you've ever worked, we know who the good employees are and who the bad ones are. And the bad ones are aren't there any longer. Right. That's the way a normal place works. So let's get rid of the bad teachers, but let's pay the good ones 200,000. Let's find new ones. Who. I mean, again, you and I both know there are tons of people who would not consider being a public school teacher for $54,000 a year. But if it were 200,000, they would. So I'm for attracting great teachers. And I think it's just obvious you can't attract great teachers at the level we need to. If you're paying them $54,000 a year. If you're paying them 200, you can 100% mark.
- [67:01]
C
And here's my idea to add to yours is the uberfication of teaching to allow professionals and people who are passionate about children and passionate about their subject area to be able to teach one course without jumping through a bunch of certification hoops and having to be there full time. But why? We have a gig economy for so many other things. All different types of professions, not just Uber drivers, but even professorships. Why shouldn't great people be able to teach a course and provide their expertise to students in that way as well?
- [67:28]
A
Totally. And to linger on my idea one more moment and then I'll move on. Imagine that state, right? Let's say Montana did it. You know, fewer schools, 100, 200,000 a year in Montana, that you'd be living like a king or a queen. And then all the great people who wanted to be teachers would come to Montana. They'd have to prove that they were great. They'd be making 200,000. And then. So then the people in South Dakota would say, well, we can't get any teachers here. Cause all the good people are going to Montana where they're making 200 grand. We gotta pay 200 grand. Or maybe we gotta pay 210 grand. I get the challenges coming up with the money, et cetera. But again, I just say, what better use of our tax dollars could there possibly be than attracting the best people to be teachers in our public schools?
- [68:13]
C
1,000%. I do have to say, though, and you said Mississippi was last, but the. The state with the biggest increase in literacy in the past NAEP in the past 10 years is Mississippi. So it's not the golden, you know, it's not the silver bullet necessarily of what you pay your teachers, but implementing science of reading accountability measures. A lot of the reforms that Mississippi, for example, has put in place that California has not have actually resulted in great results for kids academically.
- [68:41]
A
100%. But I will point out, of course, that at $54,000 in a lot of parts of Mississippi, you can live like a king or a queen.
- [68:48]
C
And rural Florida, whereas.
- [68:49]
A
Whereas the Publix in Tampa, you'd go broke in two weeks with $54,000 shopping at the Publix if you got the sushi. I would say you talk a lot about the Department of Education, the president's plan to get rid of it. I've never been consumed with this. It's such a small portion of the federal budget. Pappy Cannon Used to talk about bureaucrats and sandals and beads at the Department of Education. I just think it's all nonsense. We don't, we don't need it. We don't need them. The Democrats and their allies and the dominant media try to turn it into, you know, oh, you don't care about education if you want, if you want to abolish it, it's ridiculous. It's not that much money. Most people and saw this with George W. Bush, with no Child Left behind. Most people don't want Washington to dictate what the states and the local schools do. And some people don't even want the governors to do it. But I'm a big believer in governors and education because whether you're in a small state or a big state, governors have to be closer to the ground and saying, what's our state policy? What are the rules for our state, our universities, et cetera. So I'm for local, but I think governors should play a massive role and the Washington should not. So in the gubernatorial level, and again, you've got a governor who's been extremely active on these issues. In Florida, we what are the things a governor should do, regardless of the state, to improve the public education system in their state? What are like the basics you would urge a governor to do today to improve it?
- [70:15]
C
The first thing is universal formula funded school choice. That means that the money follows the child. The district schools, if they lose the child, they lose the money that goes with it. So you make sure you have those competitive pressures. Every parent has the funding that they need to direct it where they want their children to attend. So school or some combination of modular schooling that's of utmost importance. Paycheck protection. I mentioned what we passed earlier where unions have to go out and collect their own dues. The taxpayers shouldn't be doing that. And then science of reading, we have to train our teachers better. For decades, in fact, an entire generation, we have been training them incorrectly in ways that we know do not work. It's been proven in many states. We have to implement science of reading. We have to have accountability. We have to for our colleges of education, that they're teaching it properly and that the teachers are actually implementing it in our schools. Because we are in a literacy crisis. The accountability systems have to be much more transparent. These A through F grading systems were a great reform. Jeb Bush was a leader on that and it helped a lot. But we've ridden that wave. We need more transparency on what curriculum is being used, how its effect on our students. Whether our students are civically literate, are our schools civilization safe? Not just the one test assessment, but a myriad of assessments to help parents make good decisions about schools.
- [71:31]
A
You know, the Bushes, George W. And Jeb are not necessarily MAGA favorites. So their current place in the constellation of the party is not what it was. But anyone who cares about education, public education and just quality of education has to take the hats off to those two guys in Texas and in Florida. They were, they were so passionate about improving education and, and George W. Called, called it the great civil rights issue of our time. And that's how I think of it. And, and again I say from what I said at the top about people not being foodies, I don't know how you could think anything was the great civil rights issue of our time except for our kids education. I mean there's other issues, but nothing should come close for anybody. And that's why I get so ticked off at these unions because again, they're guardians of the status quo. This is the great challenge for America. Everything, our economic prosperity, our national security, our suicide rates, our drug abuse rates, everything, our faith, our families, everything, everything flows from having kids who can read and write and think. And we're just in decades and decades of neglect.
- [72:34]
C
Well, thank you so much for your passion about the issue. That's why I left a great career in finance and have really dedicated my life and all of my resources to making sure every family in America has multiple high quality options to choose from and the agency to choose those options. And voices like yours are so important in the fight.
- [72:51]
A
Thank you for that. I'm just here to comment. So Florida has had extraordinary education. Governors mentioned Jeb Bush, Governor DeSantis, extremely active and passionate about it. Others, you might be the first lady of Florida and if you are, I know you'll be active on this issue. What will the Donald's is plural be do to build on what Governor DeSantis has done as governor on education in Florida? If you to move to that slots, those slots.
- [73:21]
C
Well, I think our goals in Florida remain the same in ensuring that we have a really smooth and easy process for families to be able to put an education program together that's going to work best for their kids. This all rooted in our own children needing something different than the school that they were zoned for. And I looked around and I did not have options. We didn't have charter schools, I didn't have good online programs. And I thought how many parents are out there who feel trapped in a school that's really not working for their kids. And like my son. Your son hates to go to school. That should never be the case. So school choice is number one. And creating a marketplace of education for those competitive juices to flow and ensure high quality access. But accountability is of most importance as well. And making sure that parents have all the information they need to make informed decisions and that our schools are held accountable for student academic performance and and putting these kids on a path to the American dream when they leave 12th grade. We cannot measure success by a 10th grade reading score or algebra one. We have to measure success by where are these children going? What is the output? Are they good citizens? Are they civically literate? Can they read and do math? And do they have a pathway to economic viability so that they can have a family, buy a house and really be prosperous in their own lives?
- [74:37]
A
I probably should have set the previous question up a little bit better because not everybody knows necessarily that your husband, Byron, Congressman. Is running for governor of Florida and is the odds on favorite to win. I saved that to the end because I don't think it's right to treat you like any appendage to some guy rather than education expert and professional that you are. But that's the context. Your husband may be the next governor of Florida. Will you be out doing a lot of campaigning with him for this race?
- [75:04]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've done this together. Byron and I met when we were 19 and 21 in college. Politics is not in our future, at least not that we knew at the time, but we both have through our careers in finance and now being passionate about public service and really helping people to achieve what we'll now call the Florida dream, like we have. We'll both be out there talking to people. We love grassroots work. I love talking and being with the people of Florida, love my state. So, you know, God willing, we'll be successful and we'll be able to make a lot of these reforms and carry out some of the great successes that of course, Governor DeSantis, Rick Scott and Jeb Bush before him were able to accomplish.
- [75:41]
A
Yeah, your husband's a pretty cool guy. I just hope if he is governor, he watches less sports on TV just because I just, I hope he's prepared to watch less sports because he's going to be busy, Congressman. It's kind of busy, but Governor is like, it's a real job, so be prepared. You might, you might have to put like the meter on the TV of how much ESPN he can watch.
- [76:02]
C
Well, he doesn't get a lot in now because he's very busy. But we do have college age sons who play sports. That's really where a lot of our sports focus has been over the last few years.
- [76:11]
A
He's watching more ESPN than he than you know. Just trust me.
- [76:15]
C
Okay?
- [76:15]
A
All right. Really, really enjoyed the conversation. Erica Donalds, whose work on education is, I won't say singular, but she's, she's hard at it as uh, as much as anybody in the country at the America First Policy Institute, chair of the Educational opportunity. Really grateful to you for making time and thank you for being a nexter and please tell all your friends and neighbors.
- [76:37]
C
I always do. Mark, thank you so much.
- [76:39]
A
Okay. Happy holidays to you and your family. Thank you. All right, that's it for today's program. We will be back Tuesday. Our last episode before the holidays. You won't want to miss that. Subscribe to NextUp on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. We want you to be, be able to always know what's coming next up.