← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Secrets to Staying Ahead of the News, What Trump's Really Like, and Mark's Dad on "Enemies" List
01:12:31
Mark Halperin kicks off the show by unveiling his unique reporting strategy that helps him stay ahead of today’s top news stories. Mark explains why the tougher immigration talk is coming, the potential real-world fallout of Israel attacking Iran’s nuclear program, and the China trade deal that highlights a concerning vulnerability for Americans. Plus, Mark explores the unpredictable Trump-Musk dynamic and why what happens next could have profound effects on real lives. Miranda Devine joins to share insights from her new Trump interview, discuss Congressional investigations into Biden, and reflect on how Hunter Biden’s laptop led to her big break. Finally, Mark and Morton Halperin celebrate an early Father’s Day, with Mark’s dad recounting how Nixon and Kissinger’s actions landed him on the enemies list, led to wiretaps, and much more.
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- [00:27]
Mark Halperin
Foreign where were we? Oh yeah. Next up, next up. Thank you for joining. I'm Mark Calperin, editor in chief of the live interactive platform two Way and your guide every week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, twice a week to what is next up. Next up. Now to start here is one of my favorite jokes goes a little bit like this. There are only two people on the planet who understand how the international economic system works and unfortunately they disagree. It's a great joke and you can tell it in any situation to illustrate a lack of understanding about what's going to happen in something going on in politics or government, because even the best experts in the world, often in an unpredictable situation, don't understand. So what's going to happen between Russia and Ukraine? You say, well, there's only two military experts who know how that conflict's going to end. And unfortunately they disagree. I love that joke and it's a joke I was told by my father. My father over the years has shared many jokes with me. He'll be a guest later in the program. And I love his jokes and I and I got a great source of them from him. But what I also got from my dad is a first class education in how government and politics in Washington worked. My dad has been in Washington for over 50 years, working in senior levels in the government in several administrations. And today I'm going to share with you the way you can be both a good journalist if you want to be a journalist, but also just be a good consumer of news. Two basic rules that my dad taught me that I think are vitally important if you want to, as so many of you do, follow what's going on and understand it. And maybe most of all, go back to the name of the program. Know what's going to happen next, what is next up, not what's happened yesterday, not what's, not necessarily even what's happening now, but what's next up. And I'll explain some of that in just a moment. Also with us today, Miranda Devine, the great talented New York Post columnist who is now also like so many Americans, a podcaster. Pod Force One is Miranda Devine's new program and it'll appear weekly. And her first episode dropped this week. And lo and behold, her first guest is Donald John Trump. You can listen to that program everywhere you get your podcast. And Miranda will be here to tell us about her route from a young lady born in New York and living around the world to a grown up adult mother who is able to get interviews with the president. United States. A great conversation. I'm looking forward to that. And then, of course, my dad will be here. It's both Father's Day weekend and his birthday. He'll share some of his expertise with us both about foreign affairs, international global matters, domestic issues like immigration. We'll talk about the California riots and President Trump's use of the military to deal with that situation. And we'll also talk a bit about Father's Day and fatherhood. And I am looking forward to talking to them both. Finally, we'll go back to our naming contest. We want the nextup community to have a good name, something we can all rally around, refer to each other as, maybe get some swag in play. And so we'll talk about the latest entrance in the sweepstakes to name the nextup community. All right. As I said, my dad taught me so much. I grew up in the Washington, D.C. area. My hometown paper was the Washington Post. And I had an incredible luxury as I got interested in politics and government and policy and the globe. I could always ask my dad what he thought, what he knew. And because his career has been so extraordinary and because he knows so much about so much, he almost always had an answer. Occasionally, he wouldn't occasionally say, that's something I know about. He's not a lawyer, but he knows a lot about the law. He never served in the military, but he knows a lot about the military. He never passed the foreign service exam, but he knows a lot about American diplomacy and he would always be able to help me through. One of the things he didn't know about was soccer. When I was growing up, soccer was all the craze and I played soccer. My father had never played soccer. He didn't really understand it all that well, but he, like a good dad, would come to my games. But one thing that he found very confusing was that when the ball was kicked off into one area, all the second grade players, including myself, would go right where the ball was. And it didn't make any sense because you, it was just kind of a stalemate. Everybody kicking the ball in one area. And my dad would say, why would you do that? Why not spread out? Why not move to a different area? And the person who most famously described that strategy, that important life lesson not just for sports, but in life, was Wayne Gret, the Hockey hall of Famer, who would say, don't skate where the puck is, skate where the puck's going to go. And that's my first lesson for you today. In thinking about news, in thinking about understanding what's happening. Don't go where the story is right now. Think about where it's going next. I'll give you some examples of that in just a minute. Of stuff that's in the news today. That is how I cover the news and what I've learned over the course of my career. The other lesson comes from my dad as well, but also from few other sources. One source is, is one of my favorite expressions of all time. I hope you won't find it offensive. It, it said think Yiddish, dress British. Okay, and, and that's a great phrase. And, and I've adopted it over the course of my career, based in part on my dad's advice, but also on my experience covering two presidential candidates, in particular Bill Clinton. In 1992 was the first presidential campaign I covered, first beat I ever had full time. I traveled with Bill Clinton to more than 40 states and I got to talk to people in all 40 states. And in 2016, I covered Donald Trump in more than 25 states. And so I've adopted think Yiddish, dress British to this. Analyze like an insider, but think and feel like an outsider. And my dad, despite his 50 plus years in Washington, always has adopted a sensibility of an outsider, always had thought about what's the country thinking, even though he understands elite behavior really well. I've lived in basically three places. Washington, D.C. where I grew up, New York City, where I live now. And I went to college in Boston to an Ivy League school. I've got an elite pedigree. I can't run or hide from it. It's on Wikipedia. But that travel with Bill Clinton, that travel covering Donald Trump and the sensibility of my dad is always projected of being an outsider has allowed me, I think, to do something that not all journalists can do. Analyze the inside game, know how Congress works, understand not just the rules of Congress, but the dynamics, understand the rhythms of a presidential campaign at the elite level, but also think about it from the country's point of view. And I think for a lot of you, if you want to understand the story, that second Rule is also so important. You can think about the inside baseball, what they would talk about on cable news in the evening, or what it would say in a very sophisticated story in Politico, but never lose sight of what this is all about. It's not a game, although it's interesting. It's not a personality contest, although that's interesting. It's about the real lives of real people. And my travels and my. And my dad's example has always brought me back to that. What is it about? How is something going to affect the real lives of real people in the country? So let's talk about that in the context of what's happening now. And as I said, I'm a consumer of news. I read lots of websites and social media, I watch news on TV and on YouTube. But I'm always asking myself the question, what's happening next and how is this going to affect? Two questions. What's happening next? And how is this going to affect the real lives of real people? And. And I'd urge you, because you're all sophisticated consumers of news, or you wouldn't be here to think about that. So right now, for instance, what's the biggest story, or at least one of the biggest stories going? It's this question of California and President Trump's determination to deport people who have broken the law twice, at least, coming here illegally and then committing a crime, often a violent crime, while they're here. The Democrats are very focused on his use. Talk about this with my dad. Of American military, active duty and guard, to help ICE agents restore order and carry out their job. And the fight, of course, between Gavin Newsom and Donald Trump, that's what's happening now. I'm covering it, I'm interested in it. But then I say, what's happening next? What is next up on that story? And I think for me, the biggest focus is this question of who's actually going to be deported. I think right now there's a consensus, maybe not 100%, but. But there's a general sense of if you came to the country legally and you've committed a violent crime, you've, you've killed someone, you've sexually assaulted someone, you've engaged in drug trafficking, something that, that really has an adverse impact on other people, you should be deported. And now maybe there's some people on the left who would say no, but I think that's a consensus. And of course, President Trump has said he's going to start with those people. The tougher conversation and the one we're going to get to pretty soon in California. We've already gotten to it to some extent is what do you do with people who are here illegally and have been here maybe for decades, Pay into Social Security, woven into the fabric of their community, clean people's houses, make their clothes, pick their fruits and vegetables? That's the next discussion. And you can see, you can see it. It's implicated now. People are talking about it now. But what happens next when that discussion happens? Because on that issue, the country's divided somewhat. And on that issue, Democrats are not in nearly as a weak position as they are in the question of should law enforcement be protected, including by using the military if necessary, as they go about trying to deport people who are here who've committed violent acts or drug trafficking or human trafficking. So that's one, that's where I'm thinking what happens next? And again, that's about the real lives of real people. That's not about the fight between the governor of California and the president. It's about the lives of business owners, small business owners who because of the way the economy works, are often reliant on people here illegally, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. It's about consumers who want to be able to have their houses cleaned by other people who they pay or have, have work done in their yard or have their clothes mended. And, and often in all over the country, but especially in a state like California, those tasks are performed by people who are here illegally. And I don't, I don't come down on one side or the other. I think it's a very tough issue. But what I'm telling you is that's where the conversation needs to go. Some people say there's 12 million people here in that category, some say 30 million. We don't know. They live in the shadows and they're going to be pushed more into the shadows. And, and some of them won't go to work. And so some employers who, small business drives our economy, they're not going to be able to have their small business right. So that's a big issue. And that's what's, that's what's next there. Then I say something else that's in the news. This question of Iran and whether Israel is going to strike Iran. What's happening now is America is bringing forces out of the region, embassy, non essential personnel in the embassies. Okay? So we don't know that Israel's going to attack, but if they do, and there's signs that they might what happens next? What's next up for that? And, and, and to me, the two big things are what does Iran do to respond? What is Iran's response militarily and otherwise if they are attacked by Israel? And then what's next up for the United States, for the other big powers with a concern about the region, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia in particular. And so I'm, I'm not focused so much on whether the attack's coming, although I'm thinking about that, obviously. But if that does occur, what's next up? And that's what we should be thinking about, because the attack, if it happens, presuming it's at least somewhat successful, okay, Israel said we can't let Iran develop a nuclear weapon. The United States at least tacitly will say, Israel, you got to do what you got to do. But how's everybody going to respond after that? Iran could attack American assets in the region. They could attack, make attacks on the homeland here. They could attack Israel. They almost certainly would attack Israel. What's next up there is super important. And that's, and that's, and that's a great concern to me. And I'd say again, real lives of real people. One of the reasons for years people have said it would be unwise for the United States or Iran or Israel rather, to use military force against Iran to limit their capacity to develop a nuclear weapon is the impact, one of the impacts of 9 11. Whatever you think about 911 and how the United States responded to it, there's no doubt that the, the millions and millions of young people, Muslims, Arabs, others in the region, they don't look that calmly towards the United States because of their view of the, the nature of the American response. The United States, in responding, killed a lot of people in Iraq in order to try to do what needed to be done. And a nuclear, an attack on Iran's nuclear program, however it's conducted, is going to have huge implications for people in the region and for our kids here in the United States, because obviously the long term aspiration is to get along with the Iranian people, to get along with every, everybody who lives in the region who might react negatively to an Israel attack. We got to think about that. We got to think about what's next and we got to think about the real lives of real people. Don't be too much where the puck is. Be where the puck is going. All right, I want to talk about another issue. China. United States this week struck a deal with China to get things back on track. So that we're getting those rare earth minerals that the United States needs. The Chinese can continue to send people to American schools. And some of the, some of the things that they were being denied under the conflict between the two countries on trade put things back on track. But this is in the context of the United States, the Trump administration, trying again to win the trade war with China, to partner with our allies against China, to fight them, not just diplomatically, not just militarily, but to win economically. So what's happening next? I'm a little bit taken aback by the degree to which the Chinese have leverage on these rare earth minerals such that the President had to back down. Now, the president selling this deal is a big victory. But for years, through at least five administrations that I've covered, I've seen the prison. All this through the prism of, for Russia and China. How does American president have leverage over Russia and China? And there's lots of challenges in for both, particularly with Putin and Russia. But with China, they have a command and control economy. They have the capacity to control the politics because of the dominance of the Communist Party. They are growing their economy and producing things that are very low wages. They have a lot of advantages over the United States. It gives them leverage. Whenever there's a conversation about changing the terms of trade, changing the balance of power on, on, on the economy. As their economy has grown so dramatically over the last several decades, as they have been able to become the manufacturing behemoth of the planet, where's our leverage? And this deal on a pause in the, in the, in the intense conflict between the two countries on trade put in sharp relief a reality. We need their rare earth minerals. They can't be had anywhere else. Over the long term, the US Working with Japan or other countries or on our own might be able to find some technological way around it. But in the immediate future, there's an enormous amount of leverage for the Chinese. And so again, I say, where's the leverage? Where's our capacity to get a great trade deal with China? Because it doesn't seem like we can do without these rare earth minerals. I confess I hadn't really focused on rare earth minerals until about a year ago. And now it's clear from, from, from what the President said about the deal that this is a extraordinary problem. Extraordinary problem. All right, one more example. This is about Elon Musk, okay? News this week that after their extraordinary blow up, the President, President Trump and Elon Musk blow up last week that Elon Musk talked to, according to the Wall Street Journal talked to Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, talked to the vice president, who's a very good peacemaker. And then the president and Elon Musk talked. And then Musk went on Twitter and said, I shouldn't have tweeted all those things I did. Incredibly compelling story. The relationship between Musk and Trump is one of the most interesting stories. Personality driven stories. It's like a buddy picture. Boy loses boy, boy gets boy. Boy loses boy again. Now maybe boy gets boy back. What happens next? The Chronicle right now of the reproach M.O. really interesting, great. But I'm focused on what happens next and how will it affect the real lives of real people. Musk's involvement in Doge is a little unclear now. He's left his role within the government, but his role in politics is what's interesting me because Elon Musk has the capacity to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Republicans for the midterms for the next presidential. There are Democrats who can do that too, but they really haven't. There's no one quite like Musk in either party at this point. And so what I'm thinking about what happens next is what's Elon Musk going to do? Some people believe that although the president was relatively gracious in the wake of Musk's tweet, that he's going to demand that Musk pony up, that Musk is going to give hundreds of millions of dollars for the Republicans in the midterms to try to keep control of the House. Musk also could build, as he did a little bit in 2024, kind of an apparatus for get out the vote for voter registration. It's not just his money that's so valuable potentially to the Republicans, but it's also his ties to big tech. Talked about this last episode that the advantage that Republicans currently seem to have on technology, it's not just they contain the data, they contain the technology itself. They have the community of people from Silicon Valley and elsewhere who know how to build stuff that's valuable in politics for identifying people, registering them to vote, getting them out to vote. So my big focus is less on the relationship between the two guys, although that's interesting. As I've said, it's on this question of what will Musk do? Will he walk away from the Republican Party? You'll recall last week he said, I'm gonna, we need a third party. We need some sort of independent movement. Now he could follow through on that. And there are plenty of people like Andrew Yang, who is a big official with the Forward Party to try to create a third party movement. Very difficult to do. They've all said, yeah, let's work with Musk. But maybe Musk will go back to being Maga. Maybe Musk will take his millions, his billions. Maybe he'll take his ties to Silicon Valley and maybe he'll take his extraordinary record with Tesla and elsewhere in building things that use technology to change the real lives of real people. Maybe Musk will say, you know what? I'm back on the reservation. I'm back part of Team maga, Team Trump. And maybe he'll say, I'm going to help in the midterms. And maybe he'll say, got a good relationship with J.D. vance. I'm going to spend to make sure J.D. vance is the Republican nominee. I'm going to work with my friend President Trump, and I'm going to work with my friend JD Vance, and I'm going to use my money, my connections, my access to Twitter to make that happen. Well, that would affect the real lives of real people, not just the Republican Party. And he might do that. So my reporting focus is there. As I, as I learned from my dad, don't, don't cluster around the other second graders with the soccer ball. Go where the ball is going to go next. And as I also learned, think about how the elites work, how the inside game works. Vital to know. But also think about the real world. Think about the rest of the country. We'll have a break and then come back and we'll talk about this extraordinary new program. It's another new podcast, but this is not one you can or should ignore. Miranda Devine, New York Post columnist, has got a new program. It's called Pod Force One. And next up, Miranda Devine will join us. Tax day may have passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble, it's just getting started. If you miss that April 15 deadline or you still owe back taxes, the IRS is now ramping up enforcement. Every day you wait, it only makes things worse. With over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily across the country and tools like property seizures, bank levies and wage garnishments, the IRS is applying pressure at all levels in ways we haven't seen in many years. Look, increased administrative scrutiny means collections are moving very fast. But here's some good news. There is still time for Tax Network USA to give you a hand. If you're self employed or you own a business. Even if your books are just a mess, they've got you covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial gas to get you back at work and back on track quickly. Even after the deadline, you can still regain control. Your consultation with them is completely free, and acting right now could stop penalties, threatening letters and surprise levies before matters escalate. So call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com NextUp. You may have missed the April 15 deadline, but you haven't run out of options. Let the folks at Tax Network USA help you before the IRS makes the next move again. That's 1-800-958-1000, or you can visit tnusa.com.
- [22:30]
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NextUp Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back when you welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.
- [23:02]
Mark Halperin
Next up, not everyone in America has a podcast, but I believe everyone should and eventually will. Joining the ranks now of podcasters and hosts, Miranda Devine, columnist for the New York Post and the host of the new program Pod4Force1. Miranda, welcome and congratulations.
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Miranda Devine
Thanks so much, Mark. It's great for you to have me on. I love your show.
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Mark Halperin
You're very kind when everybody starts to show you think we got to get a really big booking for the first show and you know they end up with their fifth choice. Did you end up with your first choice for your first guest?
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Miranda Devine
I did. It was Donald Trump. And in fact the the name Pod Force One is because we very hopefully and cheekily built the show really around regular interviews with and he's agreed to do that. So if it fits in with his schedule, I think that'll be happening, you know, monthly or thereabouts. And look, you know, he's incredibly busy and he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders, but he was very generous with his time the other day in the White House and I think very candid, generous with his sort of privacy in a way like he is all the time. I think he's pretty much an open book.
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Mark Halperin
Yeah, it's a great interview. It's available now. Again, it's the first episode of Pod Force One. It's available wherever you get your finer podcast, as I like to say. But just talk about who you know, is. Are you doing it on your own, like who's producing it? How's this program available to folks? Audio, video, both just tell people kind of what it is and where they can get it.
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Miranda Devine
Yeah, it's on every platform you can imagine, including YouTube and Spotify and Apple podcasts, Amazon, you name it. I think it's pretty easily accessible and people did access because Donald Trump is just such a superstar, you know, he's an entertainer. So even if you know that he's the president and is going to be talking about sort of matters of state and international affairs, that might not interest a lot of people, he just does it in such a. An entertaining and refreshing way that he's eminently watchable. And so we have a terrific crew, the best Red Seat ventures, who are the podcast maestros who I think do your podcast and Megan Kelly's and Tucker Carlson and, you know, all the greats. And Megan Kelly had me on her show on Tuesday, the day before the podcast came out. And look from the comments and the emails I got, that had a huge sort of funneling effect. She. She drove a lot of her loyal viewers and listeners to our podcast. And I'm sure the same will happen for you. It's a really nice synergy.
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Mark Halperin
Yeah. Megan. Megan and her colleagues have a machine and I'm honored to be part of it. I want to talk about your interview and about the president, but just one more on the podcast. It's a weekly program, correct?
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Miranda Devine
Yes. Every week.
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Mark Halperin
Yeah. Okay. One guest a week.
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Miranda Devine
Yeah. 45 minutes. One guest per week in depth, hopefully sort of out of the box questions. I'm not just trying to focus on my kind of journalistic urge, which is to, you know, get a front page out of every interview. You can't sustain that. So I think a better way of doing. And everyone else is doing that anyway. So I think to try and carve a niche is just to go a little off piste with the questions. And, you know, all these people are phenomenally interesting people with amazing backstories. Most of them have, you know, battled adversity to get to where they are. That's what made. Made them tough. And so those are the stories I think that I, I want to tease out of them and I, that, you know, they'll be happy to tell because the audience is very receptive and, you know, there's been no negativity. And I know that's an aim for your show too, which is an unusual thing in a pretty polarized political environment.
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Mark Halperin
I want to ask you about the interview about the president, but I want to introduce you to those folks who don't know you. I know you. We've met, but I also read every word you write in America's best newspaper, the New York Post. Tell. Tell people how you got from the point of being a little girl to battling adversity at the extent you needed to, to being someone who could get a monthly interview with the president, United States. Tell people that story.
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Miranda Devine
Well, so I was born in Queens, New York. So despite my accent, I'm an American. And my parents were journalists. My father was a foreign correspondent from New Zealand, actually, but met my mother en route to America, which she loved passionately as a young boy in this small country town called Blenheim in New Zealand, and was reading John o' Hara and just, I guess like a lot of antipodeans of his era, America was the, you know, the golden, the shining light on the hill that they aim towards. So en route, he picked up my mother, who was a journalist in Western Australia, a farm girl. And they wound up in New York, where I was born. Didn't spend a lot of time here. Then we then went on to London and Tokyo, where I spent most of my childhood, and then to Australia, where I sort of had my. My formative years. And then back to my parents, came back to America. My father was working for Reader's Digest in Chappaqua, New York. And so my little sisters grew up there. And I came back to go to Northwestern in Chicago. Do absolutely fantastic.
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Mark Halperin
Hold on one second. So we've gotten. We've gotten you to college, and I want to pick up there, but I want to ask you two questions. First of all, do you do a queen's. Can you do a queen's accent?
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Miranda Devine
No, I can't. I can't.
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Mark Halperin
Okay.
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Miranda Devine
I, I.
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Mark Halperin
Can you speak any Japanese? Hi.
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Miranda Devine
A little bit. I. I used to speak.
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Mark Halperin
So did. So.
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Miranda Devine
Ah, now you've got me. Oh, Geo. Good as IO.
- [29:10]
Mark Halperin
All right. So you speak what we call scoshidake just a little bit.
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Miranda Devine
Yeah, exactly.
- [29:14]
Mark Halperin
All right.
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Miranda Devine
I did speak it well, but unfortunately, I'm told it's in there buried deep in my hippocampus or something.
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Mark Halperin
But bring it out. We could bring it out if we need to. So you grew up the daughter journalist. Did you always want to be a journalist?
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Miranda Devine
I wanted to be an astronaut first, but, yeah, when I sort of got my marbles together, I did desperately want to be a journalist. I just thought it was so exciting.
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Mark Halperin
So I'm going to Put you back. Sorry. Go finish up. Sorry.
- [29:43]
Miranda Devine
Oh, just. My father always loved his job and he said whatever you do, you know, it has to be something that when you get up in the morning you look forward to going to work. It's not a burden, it's pleasure. But funnily enough, my parents both tried to talk me out of going into journalism. My mother said to me, it makes women hard, which is probably right. But anyway, against their wishes, I did it.
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Mark Halperin
So Northwestern has a vaunted journalism program. Did you go to Northwestern to study journalism?
- [30:13]
Miranda Devine
I did. I did their one year master's program. I'd already done a science degree in Australia majoring in mathematics, believe it or not. And I just had to get through that to convince my parents that I was really committed. I almost had a job at IBM. I mean, I was offered a job at IBM straight out of graduating. And so it was. I had the IBM offer and I had the Northwestern offer and it was a fork in the road and I'm really glad I took this one.
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Mark Halperin
All right, so how do you go from being a student in Northwestern, getting a degree in journalism, to interviewing the President, United States?
- [30:49]
Miranda Devine
Well, I ended up, I worked in America for about three or four years. I ended up having two almost three year wonderful years at the Boston Herald where I had a column called what's Hot with Miranda Devine, where I went to nightclubs and wrote things up and wrote features. Had had a wonderful experience there. And then for various personal reasons, I went back to Australia. I had a long term childhood boyfriend back there and, and he was getting a bit sick of me, so went back to Australia and started working at the Daily Telegraph there, which is a News Corp. Paper, and got married, had a couple of kids, moved to the Sydney Morning Herald which was the sort of broadsheet rival, the sort of New York Times clone where I had a decade as a columnist as this sort of token conservative, which was quite fun. But I always missed News Corp. So I came back to News Corp. And my editor had been a man by the name of Cole Allen, who you probably know, who became the legendary editor in chief of the New York Post in 2001, just before 9 11, and just did a spectacular job with the paper and brought it sort of back from the dead and back to its original wonderful, vibrant self. And he had been my editor in Sydney. And so in 2019 he offered for me to come over for 18 months to New York just to cover the 2020 election. And our kids by that stage were grown up, you know, they're at university or working. And so my husband and I just jumped at the opportunity to have a short vacation, I guess, working vacation in New York. And then I've been here ever since we had Covid. That was a big thing. And then of course, the laptop from hell. And that was just such a great scoop, thanks to Rudy Giuliani, who got his lawyer to call me up one night. I was the last cab off the rank. I think he tried to shop it to every, every journalist in town, but I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. So I went straight to Cole Allen, my editor, and he is just a newsman through and through, and he knew it was a fantastic ball breaking story. And I'll just say to everybody, if that had been Don Junior's laptop, I know that we would have been just as hot to trot on it as we were because it was Hunter Biden. People think, you know, we're wholly partisan. I mean, I am a conservative and I'm a conservative columnist, but I'm number one, a newshound. And that was just the story of the century. So, so that kind of, that broke. That was, I guess, the making of my career in New York. And I wrote a couple of books after that and have stayed on.
- [33:59]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, you, you know, the laptop story was a great story in the New York Post, and you love great stories regardless of whose ox is gourd. And, and that's, I think you tell me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that story really did elevate people's awareness of you as, as a singular voice. You write beautifully and you're tenacious and you have a nose for news. And there are very few people with all three traits.
- [34:21]
Miranda Devine
Thank you. Yes, 100%. I mean, you know, I would have had had a fun time here, done pretty well, but gone back to Australia if it had not been for that, that phone call from Rudy Giuliani.
- [34:35]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. All right, let's talk about you and the president. What are things you sense or know about Donald Trump? Not biographical things, but sort of what he's like as a person that you think others don't know or kind of are overlooked in the coverage of him.
- [34:49]
Miranda Devine
I just, I've met him several times now. I've had dinner with him at the White House at Bedminster. I've traveled on Air Force One and also his personal plane, Trump Force One. I've seen him around people, around his family. I've met John Jr. I've met Eric. I've Met Ivanka, you know, he has number one. I think what. What endears him to me is his relationship with his adult children and his grandchildren. You know, it's a genuinely warm, comfortable relationship. He's really good with little kids. They gravitate towards him. I think little kids and dogs have an instinct about adults, whether they're safe or not. And, you know, you couldn't see him when he signed that declaration about men out of women and girls, sport. And he had all those little kids around the table, you know, they're all very comfortable with him. Like him, they don't. I'm not going to go into Joe Biden's relationship with little children, but it's a very different vibe. So that's number one. And then having got to know him a little bit, he's just an incredibly hospitable, generous person. And I guess, you know, that's his initial job, is hospitality. But he literally will give you the stake off his plate. He is always looking around to make sure that everyone's comfortable. He is hilarious. Like, his sense of humor, it's a queen's sense of humor. It's so dry and droll. He also has. I mean, it's very interesting, his ego, obviously, he just craves love, you know, because he's always boasting about himself and so on. But on the other hand, his ego is so strong that he's quite happy to have people, you know, think he's a naive or a fool. I'm thinking particularly about, you know, these war and peace negotiations that are going on with, say, Putin and xi. He's quite happy to be. To have people underestimate him so that he gets what he wants. In other words, you know, he talks about the art of the deal, but that is everything to him. And he even subsumes that enormous, sort of slightly fragile at times, ego for the deal and that as well. And he's also incredibly clever, like, highly intelligent, just manages to keep a lot of things in his brain. And he speaks at a very basic level. You know, he doesn't use highfalutin language, but it's masterful communication. You know, everybody knows what he's talking about. And lastly, I'll say, I know that the Washington Post has counted something like 70,000 lies on their Pinocchio meter in Donald Trump's first term and then switched it off when Joe Biden came in. But he. Donald Trump is just. I mean, I think. I think he can't help being honest. He's like an open book. Like, you know, I've had a dinner with him and where everything's off the record, and then the next day had an interview where I'm not betraying the off the record nature of it, but it's topics that, you know, I have to address, and so I address those topics. And he knows that I know what he knows, and he just can't help himself. And, but to, but to tell me because he doesn't want to lie or he doesn't want to lie where he knows I know he lied. So, so for that reason, his staff will no longer let me do interviews straight after a dinner.
- [38:38]
Mark Halperin
Huh. I want to, I want to play some from your interview. I just want to follow up on something you said. There's no doubt that the Washington Post, CNN and others have overly fact Donald Trump, that they call things he says lies, which really aren't. But there's also no doubt that even compared to a normal politician, he, he says things that aren't true on a regular basis. And I'm wondering why you think he does that.
- [38:58]
Miranda Devine
Yeah, and they are the, the family of lies that they are is more exaggerations, I think, and an optimistic veneer on things. You know, he'll say everything's bigger and beautiful and, you know, he and Putin are great friends and everything's good and he's going to end the war any day. You know, those sort of things. I, I mean, yeah, they're frustrating, but I think they're in a completely different category from Joe Biden. You know, I know nothing about my son Hunter's overseas business dealings.
- [39:31]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [39:33]
Miranda Devine
So, you know, they're not, they're not, they're not enormously consequential lies. I guess I would say I don't even really call them lies. I just call them bullshit and exaggeration. I, I mean, that's what he does.
- [39:46]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Yeah. I most, I mostly agree with you, except for, except for the question of whether the 2020 election was stolen. I think that one's a, that one's more than. And more consequential.
- [39:56]
Miranda Devine
No, because you see, he's quite flexible about what he means by stolen. I always say, not stolen, rigged, which was terrific book.
- [40:07]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And, and if you stick to the, the, the suppression of the laptop, if you stick to the changing of rules because of COVID if you stick to all that and you say, I believe I would have won the election if those things hadn't happened and that made it rigged. That's not only arguably true, it's probably true, but that's not what he says in a disciplined way. He'll say the election was stolen. So that's the lie of his. That I think is different than what you're correctly, I think characterizing about most of what he says that isn't true.
- [40:41]
Miranda Devine
But I wouldn't actually call it a lie because at the time, in 2020, he believed what people were telling him. You know, I don't think he ever believed the machine thing, but I think he believed, you know, the sack, loads of ballots, et cetera. And there was a lot of, I think, you know, maliciously seeded disinformation, let's call it about that, whatever. It was a swirling disaster. And, you know, I remember interviewing him for my book shooting straight after the election in Trump Tower. And, you know, I didn't want to talk about the election and he was completely obsessed with it and he just started talking about it non stop. And I finally said, well, you know, I mean, it's bad, but I think of it as like a football game. You know, the umpire was crooked and you lost the game, but there's nothing you can do about it. You just have to play the next game and make sure you win. And he goes, no, no, no, it's not like that. It's like Tiffany's and they stole the diamond. We have to get it back.
- [41:44]
Mark Halperin
All right, I want to get to the interview and I enjoy talking to you so much that I've gone longer than I wanted to. Before we start to play, this is a sound bite from your interview debut episode of Pod Force One with President Trump conducted at the White House this week. Please roll a one, please.
- [42:00]
Donald Trump
The people who ran this country were radical left lunatics. And I believe they used. He was perfect. They didn't want him. They wanted him.
- [42:10]
Mark Halperin
He's talking about Joe Biden.
- [42:11]
Donald Trump
They got him. And I think for the first two weeks they were really, really disappointed. They couldn't even believe it. Then they realized that you had somebody that didn't know what he was doing. They could do anything they wanted because the auto pen was the power.
- [42:24]
Miranda Devine
And you can tell where the auto pen is used, can't you?
- [42:27]
Donald Trump
Oh, you can see it easily, yeah. I mean, auto pens are easy to if you know that usually they have pinholes that the pinhole grabs it, you know, boom. It's like two little pinholes that grabs it this way, you know, for the next one you just signs as much as you want. In some cases they have that and you see it from. If you're going to look at two or three or four, you see, it's exactly the same. There's zero change. You know, when you sign your name, everyone's a little bit different. Right. When you have an auto pen, it's exactly the same.
- [43:00]
Miranda Devine
That's a crime to do that to the country.
- [43:03]
Donald Trump
Well, number one, I really believe it was a crime because I don't think he knew he was doing it. I think that people took over the auto pen. They got things signed that shouldn't have been signed.
- [43:15]
Mark Halperin
So this is a topic he's talked about some before. Republicans in Congress are interested in this question too. And this is an area of important, oversight. It's not just politics, it's not just grandstanding. We need to understand what happened in the previous administration. The main congressperson who's doing this is Mr. Comer of Kentucky. He was in charge of Biden Inc. And, and I think you talk to Republicans on Capitol Hill, they're very critical of the job he did because there were so many facts that he got way out in front of. He allowed the press to say, well, you didn't ever have a video of Joe Biden taking a bag of money from the Chinese into his own hands on video and therefore there was nothing wrong. Do you think the Republicans in Congress can conduct not just a partisan investigation, but an effective one to bring out the facts?
- [44:03]
Miranda Devine
Look, I'm not sure. I think that's a little unfair to James Comer. He had a lot of detractors and I mean, he was pushing against the entire weight of the sort of Biden cover up machinery. And he did, he did exaggerate a bit when he went on Fox. But as far as his investigation went, he colored right within the lines. He was very methodical and he did bring out a lot of really damning information, including payments done in this very deliberately convoluted fashion to Joe Biden From Jim Biden, 10% of, you know, various deals, including one from China, now that, you know, the White House maintains that was a loan and, you know, repayment of a loan was written on the memo line of the check, et cetera. But I mean, you know, are we really giving Joe Biden the benefit of the doubt on that? So I think James Comer was, was absolutely right and his book is well worth reading for anyone who wants to see just the kind of campaign that he was up against. Really brutal. But look, I think when it comes to trying to pin down the people around Joe Biden, whether they basically took over the presidency and were running it the way they wanted, I think that's a very slippery piece of jello to try and do because the main reason is I don't fully agree with President Trump about Joe Biden's mental incapacity. You know, I think everyone you talk to about this, including in the Jake Tapper Alex Thompson book, say that he had good days and bad days, good hours, bad hours. He was compos mentis at times, enough, I think, to wear the responsibility for the disasters under his office, including the border. But. And anyone who knows, anybody who's had this kind of degenerative brain disease, whatever it is, knows that it progresses in a certain way where you still are fully aware at times. So I think that the people around, you know, the very close advisors, people like Steve Ricketti and Ron Klain and Joe Jill, Biden's sort of factotum Anthony Bernal and a couple of others who were the only ones allowed in the inner sanctum, I think they would comfort themselves that Joe Biden was giving the orders and sure, he was old and, and slipping, but they would give themselves plausible deniability by saying, well, no, you know, he, he on, On Monday at 2 o' clock, he knew who I was. So it's going to be difficult to accuse them of hijacking the presidency and committing a crime. But I think it will be useful to get them all under oath. I think Anthony Bernal is at the end of this month and the others are shortly afterwards and they'll all be have to testify under oath or, you know, make sworn declarations behind closed doors. And whether they speak or not will be interesting. But, you know, they'll need a whistleblower, someone in that group, that very tight knit group who actually is honest about what went on. Because, you know, there are just little stories dripping out of the White House now from staff that were there during Biden and are still there, who, you know, I think they're going to be pretty mind blowing when eventually they do come out. I don't know whether it's going to happen through Congress or maybe when somebody dies.
- [47:52]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Or maybe in one of your columns or on the podcast. All right. One of the great things about your interview style in this interview is you get to topics that people necessarily haven't asked President Trump about. Here is a musical interviewed interlude with Miranda and the President. This is a B3. A3, please.
- [48:11]
Miranda Devine
Did you ever play an instrument?
- [48:14]
Donald Trump
I played like for very short periods of time. The flute. Would you believe that?
- [48:21]
Miranda Devine
Did you like it?
- [48:22]
Donald Trump
I had flute lessons. That's the first person that's ever asked me that crazy question.
- [48:27]
Morton Halperin
Yeah, I had flute.
- [48:28]
Donald Trump
Can you believe it? I could have been a flutist. And I didn't particularly like it. I don't know, it wasn't for me, but. And my mother had me with. I had instructors. An instructor coming to teach me how to play the flute. Can you believe that?
- [48:41]
Morton Halperin
Who would think?
- [48:42]
Donald Trump
I can't imagine an unusual instrument.
- [48:44]
Miranda Devine
You could maybe still do it.
- [48:46]
Donald Trump
I doubt it. I don't think so.
- [48:49]
Mark Halperin
All right, there's a lot more where that came from. First episode of Miranda Devine's new podcast, Pod Force One. Donald Trump's her guest weekly. Get it wherever your finer podcasts are available or on YouTube. Miranda, great to have you here. Congratulations again. Looking forward to episode two already.
- [49:05]
Miranda Devine
Thanks so much, Mark.
- [49:07]
Mark Halperin
All right, next up, we're gonna have a little Father's Day interlude. My dad will be here. He's a certifiable expert, a legit guest. That's next up. All right, settle in, everybody. I'm gonna tell you a story and it's about a guy named Leo Grillo. Leo was on a road trip and he came across a dog. It was a Doberman who was severely underweight and clearly was in a lot of trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and he gave the dog a name. He called him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta is just one of many animals that need help all across the country, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the world. They've rescued thousands of dogs and cats and horses from all over, taking them from the wilderness and providing them with shelter, love, safety and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals, that is Leo's mission and his legacy. Delta Rescue to do their work relies solely on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, speak now with your estate planner. Because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits too. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and you can speak with an advisor. We all know that dog is man's best friend and that's for a good reason. You can help those who need it most right now. So please visit deltarescue.org today to get more information. To learn more about Delta rescue, go.
- [50:37]
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- [51:10]
Mark Halperin
Next up, one of the smartest people I know, someone who's had a Washington career spanning more than half a century, starting out in the Johnson administration in the Pentagon and working on a range of issues, an extraordinary range of both domestic and international matters, serving in the Pentagon, the White House, the State Department and running a large Washington lobbying office. He knows a lot and he's taught me a lot. And our guest next up is my dad, morton H. Halen. Dr. Halperin, welcome.
- [51:39]
Morton Halperin
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [51:41]
Mark Halperin
It's also Father's Day and your birthday, which always come right around the same time. So happy birthday to you. What is it? You grew up in Brooklyn, New York, but what's it like to work have worked in Washington for more than half a century?
- [51:55]
Morton Halperin
Well, it's interesting and depressing because we thought things were getting better. I certainly did. And now in some ways they're getting worse. There's much less interest in consensus. There's much less interesting in consensus, much less interest in trying to find common ground. Everything is treated as a political matter rather than a substantive matter in which one struggles to find what is in the national interest.
- [52:25]
Mark Halperin
When you are asked what you're an expert in, what do you say?
- [52:31]
Morton Halperin
I say national security and civil liberties and the relationship between those two.
- [52:36]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, that's been the thing you've done the most on. But you've also worked on plenty of, particularly in foreign policy at the Pentagon and the State Department at the White House. You've worked on plenty of international issues. What are the big things you've worked on that people stories and issues that people would recognize?
- [52:52]
Morton Halperin
Well, I worked on the Vietnam War in trying to help Robert McNamara, the Secretary of defense, persuade Lyndon Johnson that we should stop expanding our participation and get out. And then I played, I think, a useful role, as Clark Clifford says in his memoirs, in persuading him when he took over the Pentagon from McNamara, that he also that we need to get out of Vietnam and stop the escalation. I also played a key role in beginning the efforts of the US Government to take seriously the possibility of strategic arms control with the Soviet Union and which led to negotiation of the ABM treaty and of Limits on strategic weapons, which unfortunately are all coming to an end unless they somehow get renewed in the next six months.
- [53:38]
Mark Halperin
All right, you worked on plenty of other stuff. We won't list it all, including stuff you're writing about in your memoirs, which is a great project. You worked for Henry with Henry Kissinger. You taught with him at Harvard, and then you worked in the Johnson administration. You were the staff director for the Pentagon Papers, writing. And then when Nixon won, Kissinger convinced you to stay in Washington rather than going back to Harvard to go from the Democrat Johnson to the Republican Nixon and work in the White House, where eventually you'd have a falling out with the administration and end up as number seven on Nixon's famous enemies list. So talk about your relationship with Henry Kissinger and your falling out that caused you to leave.
- [54:14]
Morton Halperin
Well, first of all, I need to note, I was a Republican, had been the chairman of Students for Eisenhower when Eisenhower ran for reelection for President, 1954. I considered myself a moderate. I was more interested in bringing the Republican Party to the center than fighting the Democratic Party moving to the left. And I stayed as long as I could in the party. Kissinger and I were taught together at Harvard. We were friends. We had dinner together. He talked to me about his disillusionments with the Kennedy administration, to which he was a consultant in its beginning days. And then, as he writes in his memoirs, I was the first person that he asked to join him. And he asked me to join without any discussion, as he confirms in his memoir and I will confirm in mine, zero discussion about what my role would be and what I would do. He just asked me if I would come to work for him. I said yes. We worked together during the transition period and then for the first nine months of the administration. Eventually we had a falling out. First on whether I was suspected of leaking information to the press, but then also on what my role would be. And finally over Vietnam. And I eventually resigned because of my opposition to the invasion of Cambodia.
- [55:43]
Mark Halperin
So in addition to being on the enemy's list, they also wiretapped our home phone for 21 months.
- [55:49]
Morton Halperin
Yes, they did. And they talked about it. There's tapes of Nixon and Kissinger talking separately. On the Nixon wiretap of our wiretap of our phone, Nixon famously saying, nothing but gossip. And.
- [56:04]
Mark Halperin
Our case, people say the wheels of justice grind slowly. The case we brought against Nixon and Kissinger, other officials, the FBI, etcetera, how many years did that federal litigation go on?
- [56:14]
Morton Halperin
Oh, I think more than 20, 21 years.
- [56:18]
Mark Halperin
Back and forth, kind of incredible.
- [56:21]
Morton Halperin
We got to the Supreme Court once, up to the Court of Appeals three or four times, and then in the district court, all that, the whole 21 months.
- [56:30]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. It's hard to imagine that, that a wiretap of 21 months on a private family could be in the federal courts for 21 years. It's kind of incredible. All right, let's talk about current events. As I said, introducing you at the top of the show, you know a lot about a lot. So let's talk about some stuff that's in the news. In California, President Trump is brought in Marines, active duty Marines, and brought in the National Guard to try to restore order and limit the destruction of private property, but also allow the ICE agents to use their to carry out the deportations. Again, probably your greatest area of expertise is that balance between national security and civil liberties. Are you troubled or how troubled are you, if at all, by President Trump's use of the military? In this particular case, I am troubled.
- [57:18]
Morton Halperin
Because this is for every democracy, a very delicate balance. And it's one that we've wrestled with from the beginning of the republic and quite probably have been worried from the beginning of the republic. And the basic principle that we've tried to follow and have followed until now is that only in the most extraordinary circumstances do you use the US Armed forces for police work, for arresting American citizens, for policing the streets against demonstrators or Americans seeking to express their political views. Whether the president has crossed a clear line of doing something illegal, I think is not clear. It depends on exactly what's going on. But the principle and the cavalry way in which he is called in the Marines as well as the National Guard and said he will send them everywhere in the country. I think it's deeply disturbing.
- [58:21]
Mark Halperin
So depends on the mission, right? And, and, and I think every American, no American, whether they're in office or not, should be cavalier about it, because it does, it does tread a very dangerous ground. But let me just ask you, this is the perspective of the administration, see what you think. They're not doing police work. They're not deporting people. They're simply providing the kind of logistical infrastructure that will allow the ICE agents to carry out their work without threat and to restore order on the streets. If the president, the commander in chief, doesn't see state and local officials doing that, is that not as long as their mission is restricted, is that not a sensible or historically acceptable use of the military?
- [59:06]
Morton Halperin
First of all, I should note that for the first year of the, of the Clinton administration, I was in the Pentagon and ran, among other things, the unit that did the drug work. And we were very clear that logistics and support was necessary. But when you talked about policing the streets, that's what crosses for me to wine. And they may not be doing that. The administration may not intend to do that. But when the President talks about policing the streets, that's I think is very disturbing. They do not have the authority to do that. President does not have the authority from the Congress. And I think one should be very careful making clear that the role of the US Military forces is to protect the government officials and government buildings when it is absolutely necessary to do so. It isn't clear to me that the situation in, in Los Angeles had yet reached the point where the buildings were threatened. But if they were, then the President, I think has the right to send in the Marines, but needs to make it clear that it's not to police the streets, but it's simply to protect the buildings and to protect the ICE agents who have the right to be protected and not to be attacked by US Citizens.
- [60:25]
Mark Halperin
So if they stay on the right side of the mission, is it acceptable to you?
- [60:30]
Morton Halperin
If they stay on the right side and if it's really necessary, I would say it's sufficiently dangerous and it opens up crosses a line which has not really been crossed before. And therefore I would be very reluctant to say the time has come to do this. And I don't think we were at that point yet, but certainly there would come a point in which if the ICE agents were threatened and their physical health safety was involved, that the President has every item need of an obligation to defend them.
- [61:05]
Mark Halperin
Well, he says that happened over the weekend, but we'll see. Another thing you know a lot about is immigration law and the question of what to do with people who've come to the country legally. Estimates vary. 12 million, 30 million. We don't know the exact number for obvious reasons. You've worked on this issue in the past where Congress has tried to say, let's figure out, is it a path to legal status, is it a path to citizenship, is it a path you have to leave the country, so called touchback provision, or should these people simply be deported, knowing that many of them are integral to the American economy? What's your perspective on what should happen to people who are in this country who came here illegally, whether they've committed additional crimes or not?
- [61:48]
Morton Halperin
I think they in most situations should be subject to deportation. I think we've got enough work to do to deport those people who came here illegally and committed crimes. And I would start with them, and if we managed to get rid of them, or most of them would then want to talk about what to do with the others. But the basic issue is the politicians, the Democratic and the Republican Party and all our presidents have failed the American people. We made a deal in the Reagan administration when we had the last bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform, which I worked very deeply on and strongly favor. And what that said was, we're going to give a pass to people who have been here for at least a couple years, have not committed any crimes. We're going to make them citizens. They get a green card right away, they become citizens, but then going forward, we're going to enforce our laws. That statute made it a crime for businesses to hire aliens not here with the lawful right to work. I don't think a single business in the United States has, since that statute went into effect, been indicted. We don't use, as we could effectively use this as Social Security system and its ability to confirm who has got a legitimate Social Security card to enforce that law. Until we are prepared to do that, we're going to be in the same mess that we've been in all along. There will be jobs that businesses prefer to fill with people who don't have them. There will be people who will come because their jobs to be filled, and we will get into the same situation over and over again.
- [63:39]
Mark Halperin
Let's switch to foreign policy. You got, I think, was your dream job eventually in the. With the Secretary of State Albright. You were head of policy planning at the State Department, right? That was when Madeleine Albright was Secretary of State. So you've thought a lot about and. And worked on some really complicated issues of war and peace, including in Europe, with Kosovo and. And trying to figure out how. How American leverage can help to end really tough conflicts. If you were Secretary of State now, what would you advise the President about the best way to handle what's happening between Russia and Ukraine on this day going forward rather than retrospectively?
- [64:15]
Morton Halperin
Well, I was going to say, given the old joke, I wouldn't start here.
- [64:19]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, that's why I framed it that way.
- [64:22]
Morton Halperin
I think the problem is that we've sent mixed signals about whether we're prepared to prevent the Russians from taking over. Taking over.
- [64:38]
Mark Halperin
I'm sorry, taking over Ukraine.
- [64:41]
Morton Halperin
They're taking over Ukraine. And the problem is we've sent for years the signal that we would not intervene, thinking the Russians would not use military force. Now they have military force, and I think we have no choice, but to make clear that we will not permit the Russians to go any further. I think we need to accept as a compromise that the fighting stops now and the border is the de facto armistice border. We've had an armistice in Korea for 50 years, and we can have an armistice in Ukraine for 50 years. But I think if we do not prevent the Russians from taking over all of Ukraine, they will keep going and they will take over other countries, both former Soviet parts of the Soviet Union and countries that are in NATO in the Balkans as well. So I think going forward, we need to make it clear that we're ready to accept the de facto freeze where we are, but not any de jure changes.
- [65:48]
Mark Halperin
But it seems like, it seems like that's what the administration's done, I think. And yet Putin won't stop.
- [65:56]
Morton Halperin
Well, then I think if he, if he really, if it becomes clear that Putin will not and that Ukraine will not accept that and NATO will not accept that, then I think we've got to take more vigorous steps, which should I think involve stationing NATO forces, not American forces, but NATO forces in Ukraine, and making clear that we will not permit the boundaries to change legally and we will not permit the de facto boundaries to get any worse.
- [66:24]
Mark Halperin
So NATO forces, but not a single American.
- [66:28]
Morton Halperin
That's where I think that would be sufficient to persuade Putin that it would be dangerous for him to continue to use military force to shoot at British or French battalion, other European soldiers who are in Ukraine. At the invitation of the Ukraine government and with the support of the United States, I think is a step for Putin too far to go. I think he will realize that. I think he's coming to, that his nuclear weapons don't necessarily deter us. They deter us from some things. But now Moscow is being bombed. Most people would have thought that that was far to the, in the side of Putin. Thinking about using nuclear weapons is clearly not. And I think Putin does understand that he can't get anywhere using nuclear weapons, that if he uses a nuclear weapon, that will be the end of his rule in Russia.
- [67:23]
Mark Halperin
Right. All right, we could talk more about that, but let's move to Father's Day. Okay. And I want to show you some photos first. This would be C7. This is a picture. I, I, I shouldn't be acting like it's a big surprise for you because you gave me the photo to use, but there's a picture of your dad and his dad. So your dad and your grandfather. That's them. The third third from the left is your grandfather. Right and there's your. There's your father. My grandfather. Talk about them. What were their lives like? Where were they born? Uh, how did they get along? How did they treat you?
- [67:57]
Morton Halperin
My grandfather, my father's father, was born in Ukraine. He came from a long line of rabbis that were the rabbis in a small town outside of Kiev, as we then called it. And he came to the United States in the late 1900, 18. 1890s, because his tour in the czar's army as a recruit was enlisted, drafted, was going to go for another eight years, and he decided eight years in the Zarzar was enough. He came to the United States, brought my grandmother over with their two children, and soon after, my grandmother arrived, my father. She gave birth to my father, and the family lived in Brooklyn.
- [68:44]
Mark Halperin
So your father, My grandfather, was born in the United States. What kind of relationship did you have with your grandfather and your father?
- [68:52]
Morton Halperin
My grandfather lived with us for a while. When his. When my grandmother died, which was when I was about three or four years old, my grandfather moved in with us. And then when he. When he remarried, he moved out again. We're nearby, and we would visit him often. I would go most days when I came home from school, I would go and talk to my grandfather, and he would tell me jokes. He was a great joke teller, except that the punchlines always were in Yiddish, which I didn't understand. And so I would wait till my father came home and say, pop, Sadie told me a joke today, but the punchline was in Yiddish. What does it mean? And my father would look at me and think for a minute and would say, you can't translate it. And sometimes he would painfully go through a long explanation of what the joke was, but it turned on the puns and the meaning of words and words that sounded alike.
- [69:48]
Mark Halperin
All right, let's look at some pictures. Here's me and you. This is C1. This is my dad and me when I was. See how old I was? There a baby. There you are holding me. Folks listening on a podcast, you're missing a great picture of me with a giant bottle. And, uh, here's C2. This is me on your shoulders when I was also pretty young. And tell me what it was like to be a dad of little kids. You have three sons. What was it like? What was easy about being a dad? What was hard?
- [70:22]
Morton Halperin
It was easy to love them and to want to spend time with them and to take care of them and to watch them grow into adults and to all make major contributions to our society. I divorced your Mother, as you know, fairly early in your lives. And that was, I think, because she was gracious about it all. Very much less difficult than it has been apparently for many other people. But it was still hard not being home with you, not having. Not coming home to the whole family.
- [70:57]
Mark Halperin
Okay, I agree with that. Lastly, here is C5. This is you engaged. You and I used to play chess when I was a boy. And here is you playing chess with my son, your grandson, finishing up. How would you rate me as a dad? How do I. How's my performance?
- [71:16]
Morton Halperin
You're a terrific Chad and you and your son have the most wonderful relationship. I have thousands of pictures of you and, and James and I will always treasure those.
- [71:29]
Mark Halperin
All right, I appreciate the review. Here's one more of you and James. This is, this is C6, please. We saw you and James playing chess. Here's you and James. I don't know what you're doing, working on something together, but James, James loves you and considers you a great grandfather. I'm not sure he rates my father father skills that high, but that's because he's. He's eight and acts like a teenager. But dad, grateful to you for making time. Glad to have you on hope. Hope you'll come back. And you're tough looking, so we're glad to have nabbed you. And happy birthday and happy Father's Day.
- [72:02]
Morton Halperin
Thank you. Pleasure.
- [72:04]
Mark Halperin
All right. All right. Before we go, I want to remind everybody that we're looking to name this program's supporters, this program's communities. Those of you who watch and listen each week, I've asked you to say, what should we be called? And you've sent in a lot of ideas. And as I said before, some of them are excellent, some of them less so. Here's just a list of some of the ones we've gotten. Next up nation. I think secretly still my favorite Mark's Mavericks, the Halbrand Hive Nuppers. Because next up, nu. Halperin's heroes. Batters up Hapers. I don't know what that means. The Nexus. Oh, no. Pronounced Next eyes. Next eyes, the Next generation and Halperin Huddle. I continue to lean towards NextUp Nation, but we'll see. Please continue to go on social media and submit your ideas in the chat on YouTube or on X or Instagram or TikTok and let us know what you think your community should be called. You all should be the ones naming it. Lastly, lastly, mistake in the last episode. I had a brain freeze. I said to Pamela Harriman, longtime Democratic donor and former ambassador was married to Winston Churchill. Of course, chronologically that makes no sense. She was married to Winston Churchill's son, Randolph. And as I say in the business, I regret the error. Many of you pointed it out. Thank you for listening so closely. Please continue to correct my errors, but also subscribe to NextUp wherever you watch us on YouTube or listen to us as a podcast. We'd love for you to subscribe and like and share and let everybody know about the program. We're still I'll consider us new for the first year, say so. Please join us in this community and let everybody know if you like the program. Grateful to you. Have a great Father's Day weekend and we'll see you next week with what's Next up.