← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Secrets to Trump's Washington, Trump's War on Harvard, and Why the Dems are Lost in the Wilderness
01:08:43
Mark Halperin begins the show by describing the culture of Donald Trump's Washington in the second term based on a series of conversations he's had with lobbyists on both sides of the aisle. He lays out the keys to get on Trump's good side, his complicated relationship with billionaires, why he'll forgive but never forget, and more. Then Batya Ungar-Sargon and Bridget Phetasy, who also host shows on 2Way, to talk about why Trump is going to war with Harvard and other symbols of the elites, whether average people care about the fight, and more. Then Democratic Rep. Ritchie Torres joins to talk about the state of his party today, how it can reposition itself for the future, and more. And Kim Rivers, CEO of Trulieve, joins to talk about where Trump stands on the issues of medicinal and recreational marijuana, the state of the industries today and what might happen next, whether a federal law to reclassify cannabis could be coming, and more.
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- [00:00]
Mark Calper
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card Based on the February 2024 Nelson Report, you just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. Indeed Sponsored Jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Welcome in everybody. I'm Mark Calper, Editor in chief of two Way. Thank you for joining our new show. We're still just a little bit of a baby. This is season one, Episode nine. Very happy to have you here. My job as I see it on this program, is to introduce you to things and people that I find interesting and important. Well, we'll do that today. Richie Torres, Congressman from New York, will be here. He's one of the most interesting people in the Democratic Party. We'll talk to him about where things stand as far as he sees it with the party and also whether he'll run for governor of New York. Then two of my colleagues from two Way, two of the most interesting people I know, Bajan Gar Sarian and Bridget Fedisi, are going to be here. We'll talk about what's going on in politics and in our culture. And they are two people you should know if you don't. So glad to have them here. Grateful to them, and grateful and grateful for the opportunity to introduce them to those of you who may not know them. And then Kim Rivers, she's the CEO of Trulieve. It's one of the most successful American cannabis companies and we'll talk about the state of the market economy and cannabis, a huge topic that doesn't get covered enough by the press on both the recreational side and the medicinal side, just to a huge issue and something that politicians of both parties struggle with. So again, thrilled to be able to bring all those folks to you today to have that conversation. I'm also delighted to talk to you about something that I really fascinated by whenever there's a new president, the culture of Washington, the culture of the presidency, the culture of our nation's capital. There's a consistency, there's a through line, some things never change. But the every new president has got a new culture. And what's fascinating to me is to be kind of like an anthropologist to try to understand what is Donald Trump's Washington like. And of course for all of us alive now, this is unique. We've never had a second term president in a newly elected term. And there's so many differences between Trump 1 and Trump 2. And I'm interested in policy, but again, I'm also interested in kind of the anthropology, the culture of what's going on. One of the through lines in Washington, no matter who's president, which party, what kind of president they are, the lobbyists never leave. Donald Trump said he would drain the swamp. That suggested to some people that big special interests, well funded special interests wouldn't be as powerful. They are. So lobbyists are still there. And what's great is some of my best sources are lobbyists, some Democrats, some Republicans, some more agnostic hired guns. They get paid really well, they're generally amongst the smartest and best connected people in Washington. And, and as I've studied the culture of this new Trump term, I thought the other day maybe I should talk to some lobbyists and see what they say, what's their view of what Donald Trump's Washington's like? It's fascinating, right? This is a group of very powerful people from the White House to the cabinet departments, the lobbyists to members of Congress and other people, journalists. The culture of it, you can think of it as like a king's court game of Thrones, you can think of it as like a great novel. But they're really interesting characters and the way they relate is interesting. And of course in this administration it all revolves around Donald Trump. So I asked a half dozen lobbyists, some Democrats, some Republicans, mostly with big ties to Trump 2.0, what's the culture like, what's significant, what do they tell their clients about how to navigate? And their clients extend from Some of the biggest corporations in America and nonprofits to foreign governments. Everybody wants to know, how do you succeed in Trump 2.0? Where do you go? What are the rules of the road? To try to understand it. And I'm going to tell you about some of those now. I got a lot of great feedback, a lot of interesting stuff, and I'm just going to run through a few of the things and tell you. And again, think of it as a novel or a great movie about Trump's Washington. Who are the big characters? What are the big plots? What are the great scenes that are taking place every day? And these things are almost all happening behind the scenes. They're not happening in front of the camera. So what these lobbyists did is it kind of took me inside. First of all, it's one of my favorites, the weave, right? Donald Trump likes to talk about how he's a great speaker and he'll talk in a speech and he'll go point A and then point R and then back to point F. Doesn't seem to make any sense, but in his view, he weaves it all together. When you're listening to him give an hour long speech, you might be doing Wordle, you might be watching some other screen cooking dinner. Maybe you're not totally focused and you don't have to be because Trump doesn't see you not paying attention. What the lobbyists tell me is if your client goes in the Oval Office, he or she is going to be subjected to the weave almost invariably, sometimes one on one with Donald Trump and the CEO, sometimes other people in the room, but invariably the weave will occur. And if you're a normal person who's not used to the weave, it's a little disconcerting to be sitting with the President United States while he's talking about golf and then Macron and then the prices at Mar a Lago and then gossip about some member of Congress. You got to get in the spirit of the weave, because if you're in there and you get confused or act confused or ask a question and interrupt the weave because you want to show you're interested, bad, you got to be in the rhythm of the weave and you have to follow it as best you can and you got to look like you're following it, that's good advice. Then similar if you go on Fox, which the President watches regularly, or any other cable channel that Donald Trump's watching, you got to say the right things, but you also have to look great. If you don't look great, the President that's all he'll focus on. So you got to say the right things and you got to look great. And if you go to meet with the President, same thing. You got to dress the part. If you're a man, you have to wear the nicest possible shoes. Do not go in the Oval Office with Donald Trump with scuff shoes or cheap shoes. And if you're not wearing the right kind of classic collar, go buy a new shirt. He does not want to see a spread collar, doesn't like it. So get it. If sometimes the lobbyists say if the client comes into town and they're not wearing the right shoes and the right shirt, they'll rush them over to a fancy store and buy the right stuff. Got to go in the Oval, looking good. When the president travels right, he's generally two places. He's got his club in Bedminster, New Jersey, and he's got his club at Mar a Lago. And any lobbyist can tell you the best way to see Trump is not necessarily in the White House, it's at Mar a Lago. Because if you're at Mar a Lago and you're on the patio and Donald Trump is there, your. Your odds are good you're going to get an audience with him. But he spends the summers in spring and fall in Bedminster. People all the lobbyists say don't go to Bedminster. The culture is different. There's not as much mingling. There's, there's not as high a possibility you're going to see Donald Trump if you're there. So if, again, the lobbyists all say, have a Bedminster strategy, if you must, because you got to see him in the spring or summer or fall, but really you want to see him in Mar a Lago. Some more do's and don'ts, some more rules of the road. Many more people, the lobbyists say, are talking to Donald Trump than are popularly thought. Sure. You know, the Cabinet secretaries are, who are more influential in this term than they were in the first term, but there are lots of other people who are. And so if you want to know what's going on with Donald Trump, if you want to get the latest intelligence, and if you want to know how to talk to him, seek out other people who've talked to him. I talk to people all the time. Lobbyists whose clients are spending secret time with Donald Trump not making the news, but they're important, so I have a global understanding of who's talking to him. Never ever. The lobbyists all say never Ever name check a member of the Trump family at a restaurant, anywhere in public? The president does not want to hear you talking about his family members. So if you've got secret dealings with them, great. But do not talk in any public way about family members. Another rule of the road in Trump's Washington, members of Congress, Republican members, are obsessed, obsessed with knowing what's going on in the White House and how they're talking about them. So collect information from the White House, from the president, from the senior officials. How do they feel about members, specific members of Congress? Save that information. That is like the coin of the realm. You go to Capitol Hill and you say, oh, yeah, they were talking about you in the White House the other day, and here's what they were saying, good or bad, really valuable to have that information. Same goes for the Cabinet. As I said, everyone I talked to says, in this administration, there's like a more of a psychic connection between the President and most of his Cabinet members. But like any courtiers in the King's court, they're also concerned, am I up? Am I down? What are they saying about me? That's another thing. The lobbyists collect information about what the president and others are saying about the Cabinet. And then super important, super important is money, right? Donald Trump keeps score with a lot of different variables, but money is really important to him. And so what you're seeing now, again, largely below the radar. He's raising a ton of money for his different campaign accounts, but he's also asking corporations to make commitments to build manufacturing facilities in the United States. Other pots of money, his presidential library. And so you think about previous administrations where, like in the Clinton administration, you'll remember they sold the Lincoln Bedroom. They raised money by saying to rich people, get, give us some money. You can stay in the Lincoln Bedroom. Small potatoes compared to what this president's doing. The lobbyists all tell their clients, you want to play big in Trump world, You want to be influential. You want to be part of the influential crowd and get what you want from the President. You have to spend money. You either have to give a lot of campaign contributions, or you have to announce you're going to spend money to help the U.S. economy. If you have the table stakes and campaign contributions, we're talking millions and investing in America. Often we're talking billions. If you can raise that money and get that money together, you're at the table. You have an opportunity to be a big player in the administration. If you don't, you're not going to be at the table. And this is this very transactional. It's not about who Trump necessarily likes. If you spend enough, you can overcome past problems because this White House keeps careful track of everything everyone's ever said negative about Donald Trump. There's no hiding from your tweets. There's no hiding from your YouTube speeches. And what you've got in this administration is a president. People make the mistake. The lobbyists say it's not that he doesn't forget, but he does forgive, particularly for the right price. So there are people who've gotten big jobs in this administration, ambassadorships and other things, because they understood the checkbook is king here. And Donald Trump's fine with that. He's very transactional. Very transactional. This lobbyist culture is building up around him. And again, it's an incredible story you may have heard. A bunch of folks are creating a private club in Washington, people close to the president, that they claim they're not going to let lobbyists in. But the smartest lobbyists are figuring out, is there a way into that private club and all the other individual parties, et cetera. If you're a lobbyist in this Washington, there's a lot of going out, there's a lot of socializing, fancy parties, secret parties, public parties. If you're a lobbyist, you got to get your clients to the party. So all the time, the lobbyists are saying, not necessarily where Donald Trump's going, because he doesn't go much, but people in the Cabinet go, people in the outside orbit go. And so there's a lot of emphasis on knowing on any given night, where do you need to be, where's the place to go? So some nights, there's more than one party. We've seen previous presidencies, the beginning of Clinton, the beginning of Obama, a lot of socializing, a lot of invigoration of Washington, of fancy parties, fancy dinners, some small, some large. Didn't happen as much under Joe Biden, didn't happen under, under George W. Bush, didn't happened in Trump. One, on a limited basis, it's exploded in Trump. Two, there's. There's so much social activity. And again, you got to go if you're a lobbyist, you got to go if you're the lobbyist, you got to get your clients there. This culture right now is. Is all revolves around the president. And again, he's seeing a lot of people, and everyone I talk to sees him uniformly says he's in a great mood, he's really excited about being president, he's enjoying the job. He understands the job more than he did in the first term. This, this is a hard story to cover because it's hard to get into the Oval Office, it's hard to get into the residence and see this stuff. But the lobbyists all know it's happening and they're trying to play on the President's mood with their clients. They're trying to find a way to capture his imagination because he will turn on a dime. He will say, I hate this company, this company's not done anything for me. And then he'll decide, well, they've said some nice things, they've put out some public statements, they donated some money, and, and you can go from being on the outs to being on the ins pretty quickly in Trump's Washington 2.0. And so every lobbyist with their roster of clients is saying, which of my clients are currently in and how do we keep them in? Because if you're favored in this administration, calls returned, things done for you, access to information, and if you're not favored, it's all just the opposite. There's very much a mentality common in administrations, but particularly pronounced in this one. The lobbyists say, you're in or you're out, and if you're out, you got to get back in. Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs, Tim Cook of Apple, he was in and worked it really hard, but now he's out until he figures out a way to get the President to understand either that he can't manufacture iPhones in the United States or he's going to start doing it. Some of the biggest business leaders in America, many from tech, like Tim Cook, like Mark Zuckerberg, like Jeff Bezos, all went to the inauguration all super interested in being part of the inside team. But their lobbyists have to work non stop because the President remembers none of those companies, none of those individuals were particularly supportive of him previously in his first run for office. 2020, eh, they all want to be inside. You think about these guys, they're billionaires, they're super influential in tech and around the world, but their Washington lobbyists have to work nonstop because they can go from out to in, back to out pretty quickly. I study this so closely because it's compelling, right? It's the high human drama, but it also speaks to who's going to get what they want, who is in this era, when the President says, you know, drain the swamp, the swamp hasn't been drained, the lobbyists are as powerful, maybe more powerful than ever. And you see anyone with Trump connections directly to the president or people around the president. You see them being super influential. So I'll keep tracking it. I'll keep talking to the lobbyists. They're a great source of wisdom and entertainment and information. But we also need to see what the results are. Donald Trump believes more than any president I've ever covered, that he can harness big business, that he can take a partnership between the presidency and the private sector and really change things, change relationships with China, with Europe, change the American economy. It's never been tried like this before. And at the center of that is the lobbyists. They're trying their best to get their clients every advantage they can get. It's a remarkable story and I'll keep watching it and keep sharing with you. And the rules of the road for lobbyists are the rules of the road for Trump's Washington 2.0. All right, when we come back, we're going to take a little break and we'll unfurl for you the rest of today's next up. Well, tax day may have already passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble it's just beginning. If you miss that April 15 deadline or you still owe back taxes, the IRS is ramping up enforcement. Every day you wait, it only makes things tougher for you. With over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily and tools like property seizures, bank levies and wage garnishments, the IRS is applying pressure at many pressure points like we haven't seen in the past. Look, increased administrative scrutiny means collections are moving fast. But here's the good news. There's still time for Tax Network USA to help you if you're self employed or you own a business. Even if your books are just a mess, they've got you covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos to get you back on track right away. Get even after the deadline, you can still get regained control. Your consultation is completely free. And by acting now, you could stop any penalties, threatening letters or surprise levies before things escalate. So right now, call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com NextUp. You may have missed that April 15 deadline, but you've not run out of options. Let Tax Network USA help you before before the IRS can make another move again. That's 1-800-958-1000 or go and visit tnusa.com NextUp. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report. All right, next up here, two of my colleagues from the Two Way live video platform. Two geniuses and very nice people and both of whom understand America as well as anybody I know. Bhat younger sargon. Her show the Group Chat is premiering this Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time on Two Ways. And Bridget Fedisi, Real America with Bridget Fedisi is on Wednesdays at 7pm Eastern Time and her debut episode last week is available now on YouTube. Ladies, very grateful to have you as part of Two Way and very grateful to have you here. Next up. Thank you.
- [19:42]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
Thanks, Mark.
- [19:44]
Bridget Phetasy
Thank you.
- [19:45]
Mark Calper
I want to start talking about something that Batya and I talked about last week, which is the president's war against Harvard University. I get that Harvard's like not the most sympathetic actor in all this and that I get why President Trump's going after them. But Pachi, you on social media seem to be taking extreme delight in the struck into the destruction of my alma mater. Why, why is it that, why is it that Harvard is, is such a big target for the president? And why are you cheering like a Roman in the coliseum about it?
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Bridget Phetasy
I get it.
- [20:17]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
I think people in the elites, especially people who have been to Harvard, don't quite understand how, how loathed the product of these elite institutions are to average Americans. And I think people, especially people who have gone to Harvard, have this feeling that there's like this like resentment or jealousy or what have you. But it's quite the opposite. I think there's this feeling that there's been this very literal upward transfer of wealth from the hardest working people into these universities into the pockets of the people who matriculate from them, who then, you know, out of, I guess some sort of weird sense of gratitude, turn around and express through their policy, through their demeanor, through everything they say, utter contempt for the people who have basically paid for it, for this upward transfer of wealth that put them in the elites, there's such a failure of noblesse oblige or a sense of owing something to the nation. And so that combination of both, you know, people go to these universities, they get this degree turns out at $2 billion of taxpayer expense and then turn around and enact policy that actually hurts the very people who are the reason that they were able to become so successful. That kind of nugget, that psychological makeup is sort of emblematic of everything that's gone wrong in this country over the last 40 years of this massive class divide in which it's not just that people who go to these institutions are fabulously wealthy and more successful and working class people are struggling, but that from that perch of immense privilege, they have contempt for the hardest working people. And what Trump is basically doing is saying, actually, no, we're actually not going to do this anymore. We're not going to make the hardest working people subsidize the lives of the fabulously wealthy. We're going to do the opposite. We're going to take $3 billion from Harvard and give it to trade school schools so that working class people can afford to buy homes. This stuff is just. I can't tell you, Mark, how much joy it brings me. Straight into my veins.
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Mark Calper
Yes, you're straight into the veins. Tweet has been forwarded to me by many. Bridget, are you as. Are you as populist riled up about this as Baches?
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Bridget Phetasy
Excuse me. I feel like I have a drafted tweet that I've just been sitting on where it's, you know, the, the young Lincoln and he's. It's like, only elites give a shit about Harv. And so I'm not sure how much this, like, the average person is. This feels to me very much like a lot of people who went to Harvard and people in media. And it seems like a lot of people care about this. And then, I don't know. I don't, I don't.
- [23:14]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
You don't care at all?
- [23:15]
Bridget Phetasy
I care, but I don't care that much. I think that my biggest issue with Harvard has always been that it's just essentially. What does Carol Roth always say about it? It's a hedge fund with a university attached. And that feels crazy to me. You know, that, that, I think that that is more insane to me than anything else. That, and I like, yeah, the people voted for Trump to do this, to kind of kick the elites around in the elite institutions. So I can see why you would be celebrating. And I think it's kind of amusing, but I'm not sure outside of people who are really pro Trump, and I just don't get the sense that many people care that much about Harvard outside of kind of media circles, do you feel. I mean, the President seems.
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Mark Calper
The President seems to care a lot about it. Butcher.
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Batya Ungar-Sargon
I think people cared a lot less before they learned that we were paying $2 billion a year to Harvard to educate Xi Jinping's daughter and other future apparatchiks of the Chinese Communist Party. And I think at that point, and this is why I keep saying Trump has already won no matter how the lawsuits come down. Honestly, I don't see. Mark, you keep saying on all of your shows that you don't see how they win this lawsuit about taking the foreign students at Harvard. I don't see how they lose it. I mean, obviously the Department of Homeland Security has final say over who gets a visa. And if they say, look, this is not the kind of person we're giving a visa to, but he might lose, the Supreme Court might side with Harvard, but Trump has already won because he has exposed what's actually happening here. And I remember saying this around the Claudine Gay story. I really wanted her to hold on, especially after the plagiarism allegations came out. Right. So she was one of the three presidents, university president who at least Stefanik asked repeatedly is calling for the genocide of the Jews against Harvard's code of conduct. And she kept saying, it depends on the context. To which Elise Stefanik, bless her soul, said, you know, the context. Oh, she said it depends if they actually, if it moves into action. And Elise Stefanik said, action being. You mean they actually commit genocide? It was perfect. But after that, she held onto her job. Claudine Gay at Harvard. But then it was revealed she had plagiarized much of her thesis. At which point I really wanted her to hold on because I really wanted Harvard to have to live with the infamy of having a president who had plagiarized her thesis. It was such a perfect embodiment of the emptiness and vapidity of our elites who think they have the right to rule over us and tell us what to think and what to do and what while themselves. Pillaging the middle class like that is the thing that really gets in my craw. If they were just middle class people and there were other working class people who had middle class standard of living and everybody was living in nice neighborhoods and homes they owned and could retire in dignity, I wouldn't have a problem with their contempt. Cuz, you know, it would be fine, whatever. They think they're better than us cuz they went to Harvard. The problem is, is that thanks to the economy that was built by the Democrats, it is only they who have access to the American dream. It is only the people who have justified chance for the genocide of the Jews who have access to the American dream. And that's really what Trump's entire economic agenda is designed to reverse.
- [26:39]
Mark Calper
I will just say as we close this that I'm for anything that makes Harvard less anti Israel, less liberally biased, and less out of touch and elite. I just, I just wonder about whether it's really obviously good to keep international students from being part of the student body, but.
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Bridget Phetasy
Yeah, I wondered about that, too.
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Mark Calper
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
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Bridget Phetasy
Seems like a brain drain. I don't know. Just. You still want to get talent from other countries.
- [27:04]
Mark Calper
Bacha doesn't. It's. Bacha thinks we should trade every international student for a working class American.
- [27:12]
Bridget Phetasy
Okay, well, I think, why are we.
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Batya Ungar-Sargon
Not brain draining the ghetto? Like, why, why are we not out there finding talent? American talent that's being left on the table. They're brilliant children in broke communities across this country who have no opportunities. And we're importing mediocre foreign students so that people in Harvard, so Harvard doesn't have to touch its endowment. That's effectively what's happening. And I find that to be deplorable.
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Mark Calper
All right, let's talk about the Democrats. Lots of discussion, kind of as a bumper sticker. Trump. Trump has moved the Republican Party to being more of a working class party, and the Democrats have lost the edge there. Now there's all these hilarious stories about the ways Democrats are synthetically trying to figure out how to talk to working class voters. Bridget. What, what's. Tell the story of how Democrats lost their edge with the working class. How did that happen?
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Bridget Phetasy
I'm just so mad that they don't consult people like me or Batya, like, give us $20 million.
- [28:07]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
I would do it for 1 million.
- [28:09]
Bridget Phetasy
I will not do it for anything less than what they'll pay these eggheads. You don't know what they're talking about.
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Mark Calper
Sorry. So what's the prescription, Bridget?
- [28:19]
Bridget Phetasy
Well, first of all, you can't manufacture masculinity. So if you're trying to get back to men, you can't walk up like, the meme and be like, how do you do fellow straight men? I'm just trying to pretend to be a dude.
- [28:34]
Mark Calper
They.
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Bridget Phetasy
They've. You've alienated men in general all across the board. I don't actually know how you get them back. This is what my real America is going to be about this week. I want to talk to people. If the, if the Democrats lost you, what could they do to get you back? I think focusing more on working class people is obviously one thing, but there has been so much rhetoric that is Anti masculinity, anti male. That is in general very off putting to a red blooded American man. We joke all the time. No offense to anyone here. I don't know how you can be a self respecting man and vote Democrat. And I was like, and if you, if you are, you probably lied and voted Republican. It just seems like it's not something I know many men are very excited about. And we were joking about this on dumpster fire actually yesterday that there's. I wrote an article in 2016 for Playboy and it was she dates assholes because you're a pussy. Sorry, I don't know if you can say that on.
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Mark Calper
Yeah, that's all good. Say it again with more gusto.
- [29:49]
Bridget Phetasy
Okay, so we, we. I wrote this article in 2016 and went viral. Rogan shared. It was right when I started working for Playboy and it was called titled she dates assholes because you're a pussy. And I was saying, America, we're dating an asshole because the Democrats are pussies. That's. It can all be explained to me to, to me in very simple relationship terms. And I don't think like. And I was saying they're. And they're kind of acting like girls about this. They're still going around talking about their feelings, wondering why these men are ignoring them and saying instead of being proactive and taking some steps to try and address this stuff.
- [30:30]
Mark Calper
Bach. I was a little bit worried that some people might see this program as too politically correct, but after what Bridget just said, I'm certain we don't have that problem. You may comment on Bridget's elaborate and brilliant metaphor, but I know it's both economic and cultural. And so it's a false choice to say which is it? But how much of it is cultural? Seems like a lot of it's cultural and less economics.
- [30:55]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
I mean, I'm shocked. You guys mean to tell me that telling young men that they are rapists for 10 years didn't make them want to join your party? I shocked, I tell you. No, I. Look, I do think that the economic piece is a little bit more important than the cultural piece in general for working class people, certainly for men who I think want to be providers in an economy that doesn't make that easy if you're a person who works with your hands for a living. There's a kind of cultural divide I think right now separating the two camps that is essentially an economic divide masquerading as a cultural one. And it's the difference between a sort of paternalistic view of the world and a view of the world based on autonomy. Working class people, men, they want freedom, they want autonomy. They want control over their lives, especially if they're willing to work hard. That's what they work for, is for the freedom to make decisions on behalf of themselves, their children, their family. They don't want to be told what to think. They know that they're good people. They don't want to be told what to do. They basically kind of want their sort of very hard work to pay off with the most modest version of the American dream so they can live an autonomous life that's sort of the American dream, live in dignity. That model is much more embodied by a Donald Trump style agenda than the Democrats, which is a much more paternalistic model. The Democrats right now are a very awkward coalition of the very rich and the very poor, both of which have a very paternalistic mentality. Poor people, because they require the paternalism of the government through no fault of their own, often. And rich people, because they have very much benefited from institutions and paternalism which have sort of funneled them upward. And I think that that divide really explains a lot of who is sort of gravitating towards which party. Women tend to enjoy the paternalistic model a lot more. We're sort of much more emotional. We get that. And men are much more of, I think, just to be very, very crude about it, a much more in the autonomy model. I will also say that to me, Trump basically just ripped the New Deal Democrat model on both economic and foreign policy and social issues right out from under the Democrats when they abandoned labor to cater to those elites and to the very poor. They left on the table the socially moderate, anti war and protectionist economic agenda that had got the Democrats a ruling majority for 100 years, basically. So it's not really surprising at all when you break it down like that, that he's doing so well, especially with people who used to be Democrats.
- [33:39]
Mark Calper
All right, I want you both. Sorry, go ahead.
- [33:41]
Bridget Phetasy
Oh, I actually think we were saying this yesterday because they did in this New York Times article about the focus groups they were doing. There was a lot of that article that was going viral, but one I feel thing that was not mentioned was in the opening they talked about what animals people associate with the different parties. And Republicans are apex predators, lions, tigers and sharks. And Democrats were sloths, slugs and tortoises. I was like, guys, this is like, burn it to the ground. This is. I actually, when I read that, I really do believe now that we could be eating out of garbage cans in 2026, and people are still going to pick an apex predator over a slug. We also have the threat of war, all of this domestic stuff going on. People generally. I mean, they're generally gonna want some kind of feeling of leadership as opposed to the sloth or the slug. I mean, if this is. It's not. We were joking. It's not even like a deer or like a horse, they said. Actually, someone did say it was a deer in the headlights. This is. You've gotta start from scratch. I'm sorry. This is. That. That was wild to me.
- [35:02]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
And I'll just add to that. Mark, as you pointed out in the morning meeting, you know, whether you agree with Trump or not, he has a theory of. Of how to make America better. It's not clear what the Democrats stand for right now. It's clear they want power. That's very clear. They want power back. But it's utterly unclear what they want the power back to do. And so it just looks like more of this, Harvard. I deserve this. I deserve to be in power and to lead. But they have no theory of the case of what they're offering the American people.
- [35:31]
Mark Calper
All right, let's close with our patented segment. Everyone knows it. It's called Dear Bridget and Batya. I want you to give one, because you're both so wise, one sentence of advice each to the people. I name one sentence of advice. If they called you and said, give me advice, one sentence. Here we go. Bridget. Kamala Harris.
- [35:51]
Bridget Phetasy
Oh, just stop.
- [35:53]
Mark Calper
Okay?
- [35:54]
Bridget Phetasy
That's a tough question.
- [35:55]
Mark Calper
Go away, Bocca. One sentence of advice for Kamala Harris. Yeah.
- [36:02]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
It'S not about you. What do you want to offer the people who have been less fortunate than you around you? It's not about you.
- [36:10]
Mark Calper
All right, Scott Besant. Bridget.
- [36:14]
Bridget Phetasy
Oh, I'm. That's above my pay grade.
- [36:17]
Mark Calper
All right, Boccia.
- [36:18]
Bridget Phetasy
I have no advice for him.
- [36:20]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
Raise taxes on the top income bracket. This will be a bonanza for the gop, and it will troll the Democrats into oblivion.
- [36:31]
Mark Calper
Bridget, Jake Tapper.
- [36:34]
Bridget Phetasy
Oh, poor Jake.
- [36:39]
Mark Calper
Is that your advice to him? The measure? Some measure of concern and pity.
- [36:45]
Bridget Phetasy
I feel like he. He.
- [36:49]
Kim Rivers
It's.
- [36:49]
Bridget Phetasy
He's still dancing around. It's. It's. I think that some. Someone said it best that he's, like, doing this banana costume tour, and it's like. Like we're trying to find the guy that did this. I feel like if he took some more actual responsibility, it would be beneficial to him.
- [37:09]
Mark Calper
So less like OJ Just more.
- [37:12]
Bridget Phetasy
Just own it. Own that. You that you either were willfully blind or you just missed it.
- [37:20]
Mark Calper
Bacha advice for Jake Tapper.
- [37:22]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
I would not be objective because I am booked on his show today. So I'll pass on this one to recuse.
- [37:29]
Mark Calper
Okay?
- [37:30]
Bridget Phetasy
And this is how the media traps us.
- [37:32]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
I could have lied, Bridget.
- [37:34]
Bridget Phetasy
I could have just said anything. I appreciate your transparency.
- [37:38]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
My advice would have been have me on your show. So.
- [37:41]
Bridget Phetasy
Yes, Jake, have me on your show, too. I love you.
- [37:45]
Mark Calper
All right, Bridget, tell everybody about your show, please.
- [37:48]
Bridget Phetasy
All right, I have a show, Real America, where I speak to the people. I want to hear from you. It is just covering topics like this. For instance, if you're a demerit like this Wednesday, we're gonna talk to people who are former Democrats, politically homeless, what the Democrats can do to get men back, et cetera. So every week we kind of pick a topic and then I like to hear from just normal people, not all the media talking to each other. So getting outside of that giant echo chamber and talking to you, America.
- [38:23]
Mark Calper
Okay? And that's Wednesday, 7pm Eastern Time. Bocca, the group chat.
- [38:28]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
The group chat, yes. Thursday, 4pm Please join me, Nina Turner, Dan Turrentine, Robbie Suave and Emma Jo Morris. We are going to have a conversation like no other and we're going to take your calls. One of my friends will be joining in the two way community. He was the black. The black Robin Hood, he called himself. He was in prison for robbing banks and got out under the First Step Act. And I hope he will also be available to ask a question so you'll get to meet him too. And that's the kind of conversation we'll be having. Just very vigorous civil discourse rooted in love and finding common ground.
- [39:03]
Mark Calper
All right, Baja and Bridget, really great to see you both here. Great and proud to have you as colleagues on two way. And we hope you'll come back soon. On next.
- [39:10]
Bridget Phetasy
Thank you, Mark.
- [39:11]
Mark Calper
Thank you both.
- [39:12]
Bridget Phetasy
Thank you, Bhatia.
- [39:13]
Batya Ungar-Sargon
Thanks, Bridget.
- [39:15]
Mark Calper
Thanks to Bridget and Batya, you. And next up, Congressman Richie Torres of New York after this brief interlude. All right, settle in, everybody. Now, I'm going to tell you a story. It's about a guy named Leo Grillo. Leo was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight and clearly in need. A lot of trouble that Leo saw and he rescued the Doberman and he named him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. It's the world's largest no kill care for Life Animal Sanctuary and they have already rescued thousands of dogs and cats and horses from all over from the wilderness and they provide their animals always with shelter, love, safety and a great home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals is Leo's mission and it's his legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, speak now with your estate planner. Because there are significant tax, savings and estate planning benefits to giving, you can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out right now the Estate planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor. We all call dogs man's best friend for a good reason. You can help those who need it most, so please visit deltarescue.org today to learn more. Again, that's deltarescue.org Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it Pays to Discover. Learn@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report. Next up, the gentleman from New York's 15th congressional district, Congressman Richie Torres, a Democrat who is always really interesting compared to some members of Congress. Congressman, welcome back. Thank you. First time on this program, but welcome you back to one of my platforms and grateful to you for making time.
- [41:32]
Richie Torres
Of course.
- [41:35]
Mark Calper
I always want to ask you about everything. We don't have unlimited time, so I just want to start with not so much the politics, but the substance. Where do you think your party is effectively critiquing what Donald Trump's doing? Where do you think you're on the right side of the American people on how you're explaining what the Trump administration's doing?
- [41:54]
Richie Torres
Well, it could be the case that our success has more to do with Donald Trump's weakness. That was our strength. But, you know, Donald Trump won largely on the strength of his credibility on the economy. I felt like the economy was the main reason we lost in 2024, and his tariff policy has become so unpopular that it's all but eroded his advantage on the issue of the economy. So, you know, I suspect we're well positioned to win back the house in 2026 because of Donald Trump's loss of credibility on the economy. But I feel like we have to tread carefully. Pushing back against Donald Trump is necessary but insufficient. It's not enough to stand against Donald Trump. We have to stand for something. We have to put forward an affirmative vision that inspires the country, that moves the country forward. That's where we're lacking. Newt Gingrich in the 1990s had a contract With America. Maybe we should have our own Contract With America. If Donald Trump has Project 2025, we should have Project 2029. I feel like we need a greater clarity of vision. Donald Trump has a genius for marketing. He's the master of simple, repeatable messages. Make America great again, build the wall, America first. These are simple slogans that encapsulate his worldview. And it's fair to say that we lack the same simplicity and clarity of messaging. So that's where our energy should be focused, in my humble opinion.
- [43:31]
Mark Calper
What's an idea, a Richie Torres idea for Project 2029 on the economy? What's something you'd like to see your party talking about specifically to help working class voters on the economy?
- [43:43]
Richie Torres
You know, we should focus like a laser on lowering the cost of living. Like, I have a particular concern about the cost of housing, which is spiraling out of control. But I will say that I do feel like we have a more complicated task than the Republicans. Donald Trump's main issue was border security, and our main issue is, or should be affordability. To be blunt, it is much easier for the federal government to secure the border than it is to address the root causes of, of the affordability crisis. The border security is purely the domain of the federal government, whereas the affordability crisis implicates every level of government.
- [44:23]
Mark Calper
Right.
- [44:24]
Richie Torres
Even if we were to invest more heavily in an issue like housing, there are state and local governments that have policies and practices in place that conspire against affordable housing development. So I do feel like our task is much more complicated than that of the Republicans.
- [44:40]
Mark Calper
I agree with you about that. And I say this with respect to you because you're a bright mind and a hard worker, lot about public policy. But your answer to me just now is the same as I get from almost every Democrat, which is we need ideas on affordability. Shouldn't. Shouldn't there be some ideas, even just one, on affordability that is rational, doable, appealing to the public?
- [45:05]
Richie Torres
So I have, I have my own idea. So, like, one, I feel like, and this is about affordability, but this is about really the importance of work, because for me, nothing is more corrosive to a society than the disappearance of work. We have tens of millions of Americans who are either structurally unemployed or unemployable, which leads to higher rates of mental illness and substance abuse and deaths of despair. I feel like we in America have to rethink the notion that everyone must go to a four year college and learn Shakespeare and then enter the workforce. Instead of imposing a one size fits all model on everyone you know, why not allow people the flexibility to choose the path that's right for them? Imagine if you could bring a Pell Grant not only to college education, but also career and technical education to an apprenticeship. I feel like we should radically reimagine workforce development and higher education in America in order to create greater opportunity for those who have been left behind. And I do feel like that could be a vision that cuts across categories of race and class and all the rest.
- [46:12]
Mark Calper
So the specific idea is to take more money that's currently available for loans for people to go to four year liberal arts colleges or traditional higher ed and put more of that money into training for people for other types of jobs? That's the idea, yes.
- [46:28]
Richie Torres
I feel like we should be investing as heavily in apprenticeships in career and technical education as we do in traditional college education. And this is not theoretical. This has been successfully implemented in countries like Germany. And I feel like it would address the deeply ingrained crisis of structural unemployment that we're facing in America, and that has left communities both in urban America and in rural America behind.
- [46:53]
Mark Calper
During the Obama administration and the Biden administration, your party, sometimes with mocking and frustration, would point out that Republican members of the House were out there taking credit for the benefits to their constituents of bills that they had voted against and vociferously opposed. What is Donald Trump doing that you think benefits your district? And I want to start by asking you about Maha Make America Healthy Again. Your district, I wouldn't say is the most unhealthy district in the country, but it's not the healthiest. Lots of statistics that show people there could use a more healthier way of life. So are you piggybacking off of Make America Healthy Again and trying to help educate your constituents about how to live healthier lives, eat better food, exercise more, etc.
- [47:42]
Richie Torres
I mean, I'm certainly in favor of promoting public health. I mean, I have a district that has one of the highest rates of diabetes and obesity, and there should be a bipartisan, bicameral commitment to improving public health outcomes. Obviously, I feel the Trump administration has been largely a catastrophe for my district, particularly on Medicaid. There's no district that has a greater stake in Medicaid than mine. But you asked me any benefits. I'll be honest. The reconciliation bill does contain some favorable affordable housing provisions. So it bolsters the low income housing tax credit by 12.5%. It lowers the bond financing test from 50% to 30%. These are highly technical changes, but it's projected to create about a half a million units over the course of 10 years. So that's a benefit. But that benefit is far outweighed by the savage cuts that are made to the social safety net, particularly Medicaid and snap.
- [48:44]
Mark Calper
If the President or his chief of staff, Suzy Wallace, called you and said, we see you as a reasonable person who's. Who cares more about your constituents and public policy than about politics. We'd like to work with you on something, but it's got to be something that we believe in. We don't want to sacrifice. What's something you and the President could work together on either a piece of legislation or public education. What's something where you truly believe you've got a shared vision and agenda? Domestic policy, not foreign policy.
- [49:12]
Bridget Phetasy
Yeah.
- [49:13]
Richie Torres
So, you know, I. I happen to be Puerto Rican, and I represent a district that historically has been the home of the Puerto Rican community. And as you might know, Puerto Rico has the single worst electric grid in the United States. It was so poorly managed for so long that 16,000 miles of vegetation was allowed to grow under transmission lines. So every time the wind blows intensely, it causes massive outages, depriving millions of people of access to reliable, affordable electricity. And I asked the operator of the grid because the vegetation is a disproportionate driver of outages. So I asked the operator of the grid, how long would it take to clear the vegetation? And he said, if you impose an environmental impact statement, it could take eight years. It took us one year to build the Empire State Building, but it's going to take us eight years not even to modernize the grid, but just simply clear vegetation, I would be willing to partner with any administration to expedite the environmental review process so that we can clear vegetation and provide the 3 million American citizens of Puerto Rico with access to reliable and affordable energy.
- [50:27]
Mark Calper
When I see a couple questions about your party that I'm asking Democrats just to get a sense of your. Your understanding of recent history or your sense of recent history and, and what it means for the future of the party. Was Bernie Sanders, as a Democratic presidential candidate, treated fairly by the party in 2016 and 2020. And if not, who treated him unfairly?
- [50:51]
Richie Torres
I mean, I felt. I mean, Hillary Clinton. I believe Hillary Clinton won fairly. That's just my view. What's the basis for asserting that he was treated unfairly?
- [51:02]
Mark Calper
Well, some people think the rules of the nominating process were run in a way to make it harder for him to win same in 2020. But you may not see it that way.
- [51:13]
Richie Torres
I mean, in 2008, the establishment heavily favored Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama was such a compelling candidate that he was able to defy gravity. So, you know, the. And I feel like we're living in a moment when the political establishment probably has less power than ever, where our politics has never been more deinstitutionalized.
- [51:35]
Mark Calper
So. Right.
- [51:36]
Richie Torres
Even if you removed superdelegates from the equation, my recollection is she had the highest number of delegates, she won the most dates.
- [51:44]
Mark Calper
Was Bobby Kennedy treated fairly by the Democratic Party in 2024? And why do you think he left the Democratic Party?
- [51:54]
Richie Torres
I guess I don't understand the question. If he was treated. He does not represent the majority of Democrats. I mean, he certainly has a constituency.
- [52:02]
Mark Calper
Well, there was people. People tried to keep him off the ballot. They challenged his petitions, they pressured the media not to allow him access to the airwaves. They did. They did a number of things that.
- [52:12]
Richie Torres
Would be origin criticism. Yep. I think everyone should have the ability to run. Everyone should be on the. If you, if you're able to garner the signatures and meet all the criteria, you should have a fair opportunity to run.
- [52:24]
Mark Calper
So do you have any sense of why he left the party?
- [52:30]
Richie Torres
I, I don't. I don't closely follow Robert RK Jr.
- [52:34]
Mark Calper
So, okay, when you think about possibly running for governor of New York, which you've talked about, you've been critical of the incumbent Governor, Kathy Hochul, who's a fellow Democrat. What would, what would your aspirations be if you were governor, not as a candidate, but as governor? What are things you think need to be done to govern? New York State.
- [52:55]
Richie Torres
We have swung the pendulum too far to the left on public safety. New York has the most dysfunctional criminal justice system in the country. Since 2019, we've seen just a cycle of recidivism. A 150% rise in the number of repeat offenders for felony assaults, more than 80% for robberies, more than 60% for burglaries, more than 100% for grand larceny auto. And there was one case, Jamar Banks, who stabbed two people on New Year's Day. And it turns out that Mr. Banks had 52 priors, including an attempted murder, multiple shootings, multiple acts of domestic violence, theft. And despite his extensive criminal history, he was released back onto the streets, where he committed more violence against more innocent New Yorkers. And here's the problem. New York is the only state in the country that prohibits judges from considering the public safety risk of repeat and violent offenders. And if you were to put that issue, the issue of whether judges should have the discretion to consider public safety risk on the ballot, it would be an 8020 issue. 80% of New Yorkers, black and white, Latino and Asian, would vote for it. Because it's a matter of common sense. And the trouble with our politics is that common sense has become dangerously uncommon in places like Alpine. I have two overarching critiques of my own party. I think one problem is that we as a party at times have become more responsive to the groups than to everyday people on the ground. And the problem with the progressive movement, as I see it, is that it's more concerned with progressive purity than with actual progress, than with the actual competence and performance of government. And so I feel like we have to be more responsive to the people and more concerned with the real world functioning of government at every level of government.
- [55:00]
Mark Calper
All right. Lastly, I like to ask every member of Congress, what are three things in your district, South Bronx? What are three things in your district Tourists should do?
- [55:10]
Richie Torres
Tourists should do?
- [55:11]
Mark Calper
Yeah.
- [55:15]
Richie Torres
A Yankee game. The New York Botanical Gardens in the Bronx Zoo and Arthur Avenue. Little Italy probably has the highest concentration of small businesses that have been owned by the same family for more than 100 years in New York City. And it has some of the best Italian food.
- [55:31]
Mark Calper
It does. And they also have a couple places that fill the cannolis on demand.
- [55:35]
Richie Torres
Yes. Madonia's Bakery.
- [55:38]
Mark Calper
Once you've had a cannoli filled on demand, you'll never eat a pre filled cannoli again. That's my view.
- [55:44]
Richie Torres
And Madonia's Bakery is right across the street from Enzo's and Zero to Nove, which are wonderful restaurants, favorites of mine.
- [55:50]
Mark Calper
One of the greatest streets in all of the United States and worthy of for natives and tourists alike. Congressman, very grateful to you for making time and always love having you on. So thank you.
- [56:01]
Richie Torres
Always a pleasure.
- [56:02]
Mark Calper
All right, next up, we're going to talk about medical and recreational marijuana, the growing market in the United States and what politicians are doing about it and against it. Next up, one of the most interesting and undercovered stories and under discussed stories, at least in the public realm in America. That is the state of the American cannabis industry. It's a huge topic politically. Politicians are kind of confused about what to do. On the consumer side, though there doesn't seem to be very much confusion whether we're talking recreational or medicinal, people in America are demanding access to these products. Joining us now, Kim River, CEO of Trulieve, one of the most successful American cannabis companies. Kim, welcome in. Thank you for joining.
- [56:44]
Kim Rivers
Thanks so much for having me.
- [56:46]
Mark Calper
Before we talk about your company, I want to talk about the state of the industry. Let's start on the medicinal side. How big is the market in the United States for medicinal use of cannabis products? How big is the industry? How many people involved?
- [56:59]
Kim Rivers
Sure. So the medicinal market in the US is, is very large. 40 states currently have some form of medical marijuana available for their, for their citizens. So million and millions of Americans are utilizing medical grade cannabis every single day as part of their, really, they're part of their regime. And we see it across all of the states that we operate in. And we are primarily a medical, a medical marijuana company. We do operate in some states that have both programs, both medical and recreational. But in our home state of Florida, for example, where we have almost a million patients that are registered in the medical marijuana use registry and in the program here, here in the state of Florida. And so it's a large part of people's lives. We see everything from folks who are utilizing cannabis as an alternative therapy to support them in their cancer, chemotherapy journey, Parkinson's, spasticity, diseases across the spectrum and the ages range. Right. Everyone from, of course, children and pediatric cases all the way up to end of life and assisting folks in that transition who want to be lucid and be able to connect with their loved ones while transitioning. And so really, again, you know, the use cases are varied and are plenty. Although one of the things that really is holding the medical side of the industry back is just the lack of real research that's available here in the United States. So as you know, we are currently, medical marijuana is currently scheduled as a Schedule 1 substance. And so that prevents research from our university structure here in the United States and really puts us at a disadvantage as we're looking to unlock really the future potential of this plant in a very medical and scientific way for folks to be able to utilize and for physicians, candidly to feel more comfortable really getting behind these therapies. And so that's one of the things that we're really advocating for again, is just the simple rescheduling from a Schedule 1 to a Schedule 3. Because I think we can all agree that medical marijuana should not be in the same category as heroin and certainly should not be scheduled above fentanyl, which it is, which it is currently.
- [59:15]
Mark Calper
So you'd like a federal law that reclassifies cannabis, right? What are the barriers to that? President Trump seems to be pretty supportive rhetorically. What are the barriers to a. Yeah.
- [59:26]
Kim Rivers
And so, you know, so it's very interesting and we are, I would say, a case study in sort of the, the politics of the deep state, if you will, on one hand, right, we have a very, very popular, as you mentioned, you know, subject matter. And really, I mean, when you, when you pull rescheduling and when you pull medical medical marijuana, it pulls way over 80% across the board in some cases actually in the 90s, which is incredible. Like, I don't, I don't think you can get, you know, dogs and puppies to pull that, that high among, among Americans these days. And so it is uniformly a popular issue. And when you get into the MC mechanics, though, of what it takes to actually move the needle, you know, we, there was a start to the reclassification a couple of years ago, and the FDA has to do a study where they basically compare the medical benefits of the substance to every other substance in the other categories that you're attempting to move it to. And so there was a 225 page research paper that came out that actually said, yes, there are absolute medical benefits here and the risk of harm is outweighed by the risk of, or by the benefit, essentially. And in fact, in this study, it was interesting, they actually compared medical marijuana to alcohol as well. And of course, as we would all nod along, it is significantly safer, according to those researchers, than alcohol. And so then the next step is that it goes from HHS to the DOJ and the dea. And unfortunately, that is where we have hit the roadblock. And so, you know, I would say Biden's DA in the deep state there has done everything possible to bog this thing down. There's been accusations of actually collusion with prohibitionist group it was in front of. So it goes through a rulemaking process. It was front, in front of an ALJ who admonished the DEA and basically said that until you all get your act together, this is going back to, to the doj. And so that is where we sit currently. I agree with you. President Trump has been an advocate and a supporter. I think that his take on medical marijuana specifically has changed over the years, as has most Americans. Right? He has, I think, personal relationships of folks who utilize medical marijuana to their benefit and sees the fact that Americans want research, they want safe, tested product to be able to have that alternative and for adults to be able to use medical marijuana in the privacy of their own home. In fact, as you mentioned, he campaigned on it. He actually, in certain states ran ads, you know, saying that he was a supporter. And so I think right now what we, what we need to have happen is for President Trump, which I believe he will, to make good on that promise to the American people and to move it forward, because it can all happen within the executive branch. This is an executive action that is needed in rulemaking to take it from a Schedule 1 to a Schedule 3.
- [62:17]
Mark Calper
We see, as you said, public opinion polls, when it's on the bid on the ballot, it's done generally pretty well with voters. So what are the countervailing pressures? You mentioned the lack of necessary research. But what are the other countervailing pressures? For instance, are parents concerned that if medical marijuana is more widely available, then kids would be able to get access to it illicitly? Is that what's countervailing on the politicians?
- [62:39]
Kim Rivers
You know, I think that really what we have here is. And there's been, I mean, like I said, I mean, I think that over the years, there's been a great deal more understanding and the fact that the sky has not fallen when these medical programs have been passed and implemented in, like I said, 40 of our states. But I think that right there is always and certainly among the dea. And listen, you're talking to someone who's. My father was a Sheriff's officer for 25 years, and my mother was actually an assistant principal of an elementary school. So I come from a long, a long list of public servants. And you know, in the dea, right, we have law enforcement officers who have been trained their entire lives. Right. To be anti. Anti substance. And I think that what we're up against is we're up against a lot of inertia. We're up against a lot of, well, this is the way that it's always been, so why change it? Right? And I think that more than anything, I really don't believe that this is an American people issue. I think that this is a bureaucratic kind of political issue. At this point, unfortunately, it's thinking about.
- [63:44]
Mark Calper
The whole market, not just your company. What percentage of marijuana sales in the United States are medicinal? What percent is regulated, is recreational?
- [63:52]
Kim Rivers
Yeah. So I don't have. Unfortunately, again, because we're in kind of a checkerboard regulatory environment. We don't have great, I would say, you know, clean industry data as it relates to that. But I can tell you that the majority of states are medical only, right. So when you look at a marketplace of say 35 billion, right. And you think that, you know, again, the vast majority are medical states, I would say more than half of that rate is coming from, is coming from medical sales at this point, would you.
- [64:18]
Mark Calper
Expect in the state level to recreational sales would increase dramatically? The data I've seen suggests that it will. Does that mean more states or more consumers in the states where it's currently legal?
- [64:28]
Kim Rivers
Yeah. And so, I mean, again, so I think we have to be very thoughtful in terms of how we're talking about this, right. Because this is where some confusion comes in. And so when we're talking about rescheduling from a Schedule 1 to a Schedule 3, that is absolutely nothing to do with recreational sales. That is simply moving medical sales or medical products, right. From a Schedule 1 to a Schedule 3, which again, from a consumer perspective would increase. Right. The ability for us to have safe, tested, research backed products. And so that's the only difference from a rescheduling perspective when you're talking about something like, for example, the States act, which is an act that we're certainly supportive of, we believe is in line with this administration's ethos, if you will, to put lawmaking of this type of subject into the hands of the states so that states can be supported and say, okay, if as a state we decide to move not only on the medical program, but perhaps on an adult use program as well, and therefore the federal government would say, yes, we recognize that, we recognize the validity there so that there's not again, an incongruency between state law and federal law. That would be something, again, that wouldn't by default mean that recreational marijuana would be national. Right. It would just mean that a state would then have the ability to pass, to pass a law. And so when you see a state, to answer your question directly, that moves from a medical program into an adult use program. Certainly we see sales increase, of course, because there's more of the population that then has access. But it's interesting because what we also see, like in a state like Arizona where we operate, is we actually see folks who are utilizing marijuana in a mixed way, meaning that a lot of folks are getting it to treat a potential issue that they may be dealing with on kind of a regular basis. They sleep, for example, but then may also decide that on the weekend they want to substitute perhaps Alcohol for marijuana as an alternative. So it's not always a straight. I would say one for one.
- [66:24]
Mark Calper
You and I both know people whose stories of pain relief or other benefits of medical use are touching and heartbreaking, but also wonderful because they found something that works for them. But I won't speak for you, but I also know people who get fake prescriptions and access medical marijuana for recreational use. How do we stop that from happening when in this society, chances are people can find a way to get a prescription?
- [66:53]
Kim Rivers
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that really has to do with, again, how the state programs are rolled out. And I mean, candidly, right. If you want to, if you want to really stop it, I think it's by providing an actual more of a uniform overlay from a regulatory structure perspective.
- [67:09]
Mark Calper
Right.
- [67:09]
Kim Rivers
I mean, I think part of the challenge that we have not only on the medical side, but also on the adult use side is there is such this checkerboard of regulations across. Across the country. I mean, if you think about it, right, If I have a medical card in Florida, for example, for a specific condition that I utilize as a, perhaps a replacement for, you know, a traditional pharmaceutical prescription, and then I'm traveling to the state of Georgia, right. It's a neighboring state also, by the way, has a medical. A medical program, my condition may not be covered, let alone the fact that I can't get access to that medication in Georgia because I'm not a cardholder in Georgia. Right. So it becomes this real. What is real, what is not, what is valid, what is not. Right. And it does vary so greatly from state to state that I think that one of the challenges that we have as operators is one making sure that there's integrity in the system, which we're very passionate about, making sure that there is regulatory requirements that have testing and safety at their forefront. Right. Because, I mean, another question that, you know, I think should be asked is how are we ensuring that these products are safely labeled, safely tested out of the hands of our kids? Right. I'm a mom. I feel very, very strongly about that as well. But again, each state has its own set of rules and requirements, and I think that makes it. That makes it challenging. And the same goes for physicians as well in terms of their oversight.
- [68:31]
Mark Calper
You've been in this business for a while, but you've also worked in a lot of other businesses. How is. How are the economics of your company truly like a normal business? And how is your company not like a normal business in terms of dealing with the regulation, the market, customers etc.
- [68:46]
Kim Rivers
Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, from on the customer front, I think it is very much like another, like, you know, other businesses in that we service all types of customers. I say if you go into a Trulieve store, it's literally the same demographics that you would see walking into a CVS or a Walgreens. And it really is all walks of life, all socioeconomic backdrops and really is, is, is really great in that, in that respect and that we're able to touch so many people's lives. I would say the differences, though, are definitely outweigh the similarities, as I mentioned, right. The checker board of laws. So you have different regulatory requirements, rules that you're, you're up against on every single, at every single turn. And we are not able to really scale in the way that normal businesses scale, meaning that our products can't cross state lines. Right. So again, you know, we aren't able to have a big facility, for example, that we manufacture out of and then ship to other, to other markets. And then I would say most interestingly, at least from an economics perspective, is our taxes and the tax burden that is on our industry and on our company. You know, we are taxed at an effective rate. I just, I just did the numbers for Q1 effective rate of 258% versus what a normalized effective rate would be, which would be around 21%. So it is a very, I would say it's a very onerous tax burden. And the reason for that. Right. It makes sense when you think about it. Right. We have a federally illegal product at the moment. Right. And so there is this high tax burden. That's how they, that's how they prosecuted the mob. Right. I mean, so that's, that's where we are currently. Even though when you think about it, right. Again, you know, it's, it's, you're taxing, you're taxing our company the same as if we were selling heroin. So it's, it's, again, at some point, right, we need to, we need to rectify the inequities in that industry.
- [70:31]
Mark Calper
All right. Kim Rivers, CEO of Trulieve, one of the most successful companies in an industry that is weird, highly regulated, big, growing faster and quite popular, at least with a lot of people. Thank you for joining us on NextUp. Appreciate it.
- [70:46]
Kim Rivers
Thanks so much.
- [70:47]
Mark Calper
That's it for this episode of NextUp. On Thursday, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich joins us to talk about his new book. And we'll run the landscape foreign and domestic with him. Grateful to you for making time for all our guests, for joining us today. And we'll see you Thursday for what's next up.