← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
The 2026 Political Scandal Survival Guide and Why 2028 Contenders May Sit Out Entirely, Plus Larry Wilmore on the Comedy Renaissance
01:15:32
Mark Halperin delivers his reported monologue on what it really takes to survive a presidential campaign, drawing on decades of experience covering politics at the highest level. He breaks down how Bill Clinton navigated major scandals during the 1992 race and why his approach to crisis management still stands apart today, then broadens the lens to 2028 to explain why many potential candidates may ultimately decide not to run at all. From George W. Bush to Donald Trump, Halperin examines how past controversies surface, how candidates respond under pressure, and why the ability to withstand scrutiny may be the single most important factor in determining who can actually win. Later, Stephen Moore joins to discuss why artificial intelligence could transform the economy faster than any shift in modern history, from its impact on jobs and productivity to the massive energy demands it will require. Plus, comedy legend Larry Wilmore weighs in on the evolving entertainment landscape, brea...
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feel meaningful for every mom you're celebrating. Order with confidence and get Double blooms at 1-800-flowers.com sxm that's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm. Hey everybody. Welcome to NextUp with Mark Halpern. I am Mark Halpern, editor in chief of the live interactive video platform 2way, and your host for the next hour or so of stuff that's next. Very grateful to you for being here. Have a great show. A couple of topics I'm super interested in, a couple of great guests, comedy legend Larry Wilmore will be here, economist Stephen Moore. We're going to try to unpack the comedy of the economy and the economy and the economy of comedy with both of them. I can't wait to talk to them both. And I think you'll enjoy them both. Before they join us though, my reported monologue on running for president with Skeletons in the closet. We've seen this week a prospective presidential candidate, Ruben Gallego, caught up in the controversy involving Eric Swalwell. And I've got some reporting for you on what it takes to run for president with skeletons in the closet. People run with skeletons in the closet all the time. Some of them survive and some of them don't. And I'm going to explain to you what sets them apart, the survivors and the ones who decline and perish if they run for president. That reported monologue is next up. So a quick question for anyone with a dog or cat. Have you ever bought a flea treatment, used it exactly like the instructions said and the fleas just didn't care? You're not imagining it. Fleas, actually, they build resistance to over the counter treatments over time. Frontline advantage Seresto. They work for a while and then they Just stop. Meanwhile, you spent 150 bucks, 200 maybe more, and your dog is still scratching. Here's what most people don't know the stuff your vet prescribes Provecto, Simparica, Nexgard. It hits differently. Prescription strength is a completely different class of treatment, but getting it, it usually means an appointment, a waiting room and a bill that makes you wince. That's where Dutch comes in. Dutch is an online vet service that connects you with a real license vet, no waiting room, no office visit fee. They can prescribe the exact same prescription strength, flea and tick meds your vet would, and you get them delivered straight to your door. If your pet is still scratching and you've tried everything at the pet store, it's time to stop guessing and go get yourself a prescription. Support us and use the word mark for $50 off your membership at Dutch.com mark again Dutch.com mark All right, next everybody, my reported monologue on running for president with controversy. I've been covering campaigns for a long time, and you don't want false modesty from me. You want the truth. The truth is I have done this for a long time and I've done it as well as I think anybody else. I really just something I really understand. I had a little bit of coverage in 1988 when George W. Bush won. George H.W. bush won. But really in 1992, I got assigned to cover the governor of Arkansas running for president. And I spent most of my career doing it and talked before about the difference between politics and campaigns and elections. I understand all three and I've worked hard at it and I worked alongside many talented colleagues. I'm not saying the only one who can do it. But I really understand the rhythms of this. And a big part of it is also understanding the media. Okay. And crazily, a lot of people in the media don't understand the media. If you look at the presidents who've won Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, not Biden, I'll get to Biden. They all had crucibles when they were running. They all face extraordinary controversy about their past. And they survived it. But they didn't survive it by accident. They and their teams understood in the modern era, which has changed because of digital, we'll get to that, too. They understood what it took. What does it take to be faced with something that would potentially knock out someone else? Because along the way, people who they beat, whether it was in a nomination fight or the general election, they also faced controversy from their past. It's inevitable if you're going to be a potential present. Your past is going to come back. But these guys were able to overcome it. Now, Biden in 2020, 2020, didn't face very much of this, even though he should have with Biden Inc. Because of COVID and because the press protected him because they wanted Trump to lose. So Joe Biden's the exception. Joe Biden got elected without really having to go through one of these crucibles of confronting the past. And the reason this is on my mind is I look at all these people talked about as potential presidential candidates, including J.D. vance, and just say, what do we know about their past that could come back that they've never confronted? Because you confront things when you run for president, regardless of what office you've run for before, from your past, that could knock you out of the race. And people run for office knowing they've got skeletons, but they often don't tell the people around them about the skeletons. So the staff is caught unaware. Oh, my goodness. So Eric Swalwell, there were rumors about him for a long time, decided to run from, instead of staying in his House seat, decided to run for governor of California. And it is because he decided to run for governor of California that his past was scrutinized and allegations have come against him. Now he is out of the governor's race. He's out of the House of Representatives. He faces legal peril, and he didn't handle it well at all. But now his friend, one of his best friends, Ruben Gallego, senator from Arizona, is also facing peril. And this is the peg. This is the reason I'm talking to you about this today. I called around to the smart people I know who've been through this to talk about the phenomena. It's difficult to run for president for a thousand reasons. But one of the reasons it's difficult is, is because you and your family will face scrutiny like you've never faced. And not everybody can handle it. Now, what determines whether someone can handle it or not? What determines whether they run the gauntlet, survive this level of scrutiny about their past? One is the nature of the allegations. How serious are they? How true are they? How much the voters care about them? But the other variable, without a doubt, is how skillful are the candidate, his spouse or spouse and their team? How skillful are they in handling it? And it's not easy. And particularly in this age of AI and digital and social media and fierce partisanship, if you run for president, unless you are absolutely clean, nothing in your background and come on now, Even Mitt Romney, a guy who didn't smoke or drink, Mormon, had plenty of stuff from his professional life that got scrutiny. Even if you've got nothing, they're going to come after you and nobody has nothing. So how do you handle it? Ruben Gallego has said openly he might run for president. I've been skeptical, have not put him on my list of aid for 28. And why is that? Because he's had a messy divorce on the public record. Republicans tried to make an issue of it in his Senate campaign, left his first wife under poor circumstances and got remarried. And I've watched the coverage of that and I watched how he handled it. And the reality is a lot of people get away with stuff because the press, if you're not running for president, doesn't ask you about it. So now this guy friends with Swalwell, the Capitol Hill press corps swarmed him this week and said, how could you not have known what Eric Swalwell was allegedly doing? And he had a long press conference. I recommend if you're interested in this topic, you go watch the whole thing. But he had his arms crossed. He was defensive. And, and it was basically any political professional of either party or any, any experienced analyst who watched it would say this is not what to do. So let's start as we walk through this before we go down memory lane, let's start with Senator Gallego. This is from Tuesday this week being asked volley of many questions about his past and about his knowledge of in relationship to Eric swalwa. This is S8, please.
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You know, I don't know what's going on with his family, but it's definitely a horrible situation. Family, they're using that as a cover to attack me right now because they can't do it. They couldn't take back 2024 because he ran a horrible race. But now this is what they want to do. They just want to hurt me as much as presidents. Everything else like that, I don't care.
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We're going to wait.
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That's not even a thing right now.
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The most important thing is I want to protect my family, want to protect my family's reputation. And this is why we're talking about right now.
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Again, throughout the thing, he crossed his arms, he looked away from the reporters. He, he, he spoke too quickly. Every, every, every professional who's watched that, it said that's not the way to do it. Now what is the way to do it? The two greatest survivors in modern American presidential politics are Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. But George W. Bush and Barack Obama both faced crises, not like Clinton and Trump, but they both face crises. But there's ways to handle it. Now, again, you got to have a team, you got to have supporters, but the candidate himself has got to step up. So let's start with Bill Clinton. In the winter of 1991, 1992, he had become the front runner for the Democratic nomination. He'd come from nowhere. Most people hadn't heard of him. I'd been covering him straight through from the late summer of 91 and spent a lot of time with him and had access to him. And there were some rumors, controversies, little small things, records, scrutiny of his record. But then in the winter, January rather of 92, right before the primary, the primary was February 18, later than it is now. So about a month before the primary, the supermarket tabloid the Star came out with a series of stories about Jennifer Flowers, who had been a cabaret singer and local TV reporter in Arkansas, where she alleged that she had recordings of conversations with Governor Clinton and alleging that they had had a long running affair. So just to set the scene for you, I didn't never heard of Jennifer Flowers. I'd heard rumors about Bill Clinton's personal life, but I'd never heard of her. And we're flying from Washington, D.C. on a private plane to New Hampshire where he's going to do some private meetings in the, in Manchester, New Hampshire, the biggest city, the center of the state. And then we're going to drive to the western part of the state for a political event. So we get to Manchester, we land, he goes to, we go to a hotel that was then a Holiday Inn, and he goes to a room and I'm sitting in the lobby. And while I'm sitting in the lobby, my assignment desk for ABC News, where I worked then said we got a copy of the Star magazine and it talks about Bill Clinton and Jennifer Flowers. So again, no digital back then, ladies and gentlemen. They photocopied the Star magazine, the COVID and the article, and they fax it to the hotel front desk. And of course, I'm not staying at the hotel, so I have to talk my way into making them hand me my fax. And I start to read it and I'm trying to understand who's Jennifer Flowers, what's this all about? And some of the pages are missing from the facts. So I don't really have the whole story. And then Bill Clinton comes down to the lobby and he's ready to go. And I only reporter there, only reporter. I think one of the few reporters Who'd seen the Star magazine because my assignment desk in New York had gotten an early copy. And I said with my tape recorder. And really not much of an idea what I'm talking about. I say to Governor Clinton, there's this article about Jennifer Flowers. What's the deal? What's your relationship with her? And this is just a portion of the conversation, a little hard to hear, but you'll get the point of it. And just listen less to his words than his tone. He knows full well who Jennifer Flowers is. He knows full well what his relationship with her was like. And listen, though, to the way he handles it. This is Bill Clinton and me in the lobby of the Holiday inn in Manchester, New Hampshire, in January 23, 1992. S9, please go.
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Right before I declared, she said, bill,
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I've been offered $50,000 a job in Los Angeles.
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And I said, well, what did you say? She said, well, I told the person
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to talk to me it wasn't true.
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And I said, what did he say?
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They said, it didn't matter if any
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of this was true, as long as I raised my hand, I'd be all right.
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It would be published and truth and how do you do it? So she called.
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So she. She called me.
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Then she called me back and said
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she's being harassed by one of these
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television shows, filmed her going to work.
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She kept saying, what should I do? Every time she said, just tell the truth.
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Tell them it didn't happen.
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No telling it.
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But there's things that they claim if the tapes exist. I mean, are you surprised if she taped your phone calls? Well, a little bit.
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I began to work. So he basically says Jennifer Flowers called him and he was in regular touch with her about people asking about their relationship. And he said, just. Just tell the truth. All right. Very smooth. Not really like Mr. Gallego. And then every other reporter in the world tried to ask Bill Clinton about this in New Hampshire. And then he did a town hall three days later. And he gets asked at the town hall about Jennifer Flowers. Now, this was after he taped an interview with 60 Minutes. He agreed with 60 Minutes to do an interview, 60 Minutes with Hillary, which we'll get to in a minute. But look at how he handles it in a town hall. When a voter could be a plant, maybe not asks him about Jennifer Flowers. Listen how Bill Clinton handles this. This is Bill Clinton in New Hampshire town Hall in January 26, 1992. S1, please. Yes, ma'.
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Am.
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John, when you said a few minutes ago that we'll find out what you were yesterday. Is that an acknowledgement that you had an affair with Flower in the.
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Get off.
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Get off it.
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Wait, wait, wait, wait. Be fair.
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Watch. Well, she cares.
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Watch, watch.
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60 minutes.
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I have said all I have to say, and I'm not going to say anymore.
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That's it. Let me go over here.
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Okay.
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So unlike Ruben Geiger, he's not standing in front of a wall by himself. He's now he's standing in front of a group of, of supporters and citizens and, and, and knows how to get them to applaud the notion of. I'm not saying anything else about it, you know, best that ever was. But, but the point is he had a, he had a way of talking about this when I confronted him initially when he wasn't really expecting to have to talk about this. And then three days later and throughout. And so he survived the Jennifer Flowers thing. There's. You can go look at on YouTube. You'll see a lot of other videos from that period where he talks about it. And then he and Hillary go on 60 Minutes. And this is a key thing. If it's a personal accusation, and often they are, you need your spouse, right? You need your spouse to support you. We haven't seen Ruben Gallego's wife. At least I haven't seen her talking about this. Haven't seen Eric Swalwell's wife either. Right? Here's Hillary Clinton from the famous 60 Minutes interview talking about her support for Bill Clinton. S3, please. You know, I'm not sitting here as some little woman standing by my man like Tammy Wynette. I'm sitting here because I love him
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and I respect him and I honor
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what he's been through and what we've been through together. And, you know, if that's not enough for people, then, heck, don't vote for him.
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A good friend.
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All right, you hear the Southern accent there? She did live in Arkansas at the time anyway. Very effective, just by any standard. And then she was criticized for what she said in the 60 Minutes interview. So they deal with the Jennifer Flowers story, that's in late January. And then about a week and a half later, the Wall Street Journal runs a story saying that Bill Clinton dodged the draft. And they've got a guy named Colonel Holmes who was his draft officer in Arkansas who says basically, Bill Clinton dodged a draft. So Bill Clinton, a lot of controversy, a lot of questions about that. He goes back to Arkansas and kind of regroups and then he comes back to New Hampshire on February 10, eight days before the New Hampshire primary and ABC News had obtained a letter that Bill Clinton had written to Colonel Holmes. Wall Street Journal didn't have this in their story. And the first line was like, thank you for saving me from the draft. Okay. So super controversial. Going to pour kerosene on the question that reporters were obsessed with. Did Bill Clinton dodge the draft in Vietnam? So I was in charge of handing the letter to the Clinton campaign when they landed back in New Hampshire for the home stretch before the primary. And I gave it to George Stephanopoulos. Here's how Newsweek chronicled my small role in history. A3 they. They talk about. They talked about my. Well, I'll read it to you. This from a Newsweek account of what I did. He said he was waiting like a messenger from media hell on the tarmac of a tiny airport south of Manchester, New Hampshire. And when the door of Bill Clinton's jet opened that dreary morning in mid February, ABC News producer Mark Halperin handed Clinton campaign manager George Stephanopoulos. He wasn't the campaign manager, but senior, officially campaign a letter. Stephanopoulos read one sentence and he felt for a moment as if he was going to collapse. So I got that nice name, the messenger for media hell. But the point is, Bill Clinton then had to deal with the draft. The question of whether he dodged the draft. And this was at the end of the Cold War, that was still a big deal. But he did and he dealt with it just the way he dealt with the Jennifer Flowers thing. He turned it all very confidently to back to the voters and said, is this really what you want the election to be about? Then George W. Bush runs and he didn't have as much controversy as Clinton, but he did have some controversy. And right at the end of the campaign, November 2, 2000, story breaks that George W. Bush drove drunk with his teenage sister in the car. Never had come out before he knew he'd done it. Never disclosed it when he ran for governor of Texas twice. Never disclosed it earlier in the presidential campaign. Some people second guessed that and said, you should have put it out early. But he didn't. And then he had to deal with it. Watch again. Think back to Senator Gallego and how he looked the other day. Here's George W. Bush explaining his DWI arrest, November of 20th she 2000, right before the election. This is S4, please.
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Obviously there's a report out tonight that 24 years ago I was apprehended in Kennebunkport, Maine for a dui. That's an accurate story. I'm not proud of that. I oftentimes said that years ago, I made some mistakes. I occasionally drank too much and I did. On that night, I was pulled over. I admitted to the policeman that I had been drinking. I paid a fine and I regret that it happened, but it did. I've learned my lesson.
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Laura Bush standing beside him, calm, cool, collected, forthright, he handled it. Now, you know he didn't win the election in terms of the votes in Florida if they'd been counted honestly. But the point is it didn't collapse his support because he stood there and he dealt with it. And again, I just say, just like I asked you to compare the Bill Clinton tone and manner and directness to Senator Gallego. Same with George Bush, Barack Obama, same thing. He dealt with Reverend Wright, he dealt with Tony Resco, some other controversies. He dealt with it again, same confidence, same, same force. And then Donald Trump, Donald Trump's textbook behavior on this stuff when he faced controversy during the campaign, of course he faced a ton in 2016, is to go on offense as quickly as possible. But the Access Hollywood tape was a huge thing, a huge skeleton, a huge unexpected moment for him to try to defend. And so his first jab, his first stab at dealing with it was to make a video to try to put to rest the charges. Here is Donald Trump's attempt, which I would say he says in the beginning of the video, he's not a perfect person. I would say history suggests this was not a perfect attempt. But for a first swing, not bad. Here's Donald Trump apologizing for his Access Hollywood. Grab him by the comments. S5, please.
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I've never said I'm a perfect person, nor pretended to be someone that I'm not. I've said and done things I regret. And the words released today on this more than a decade old video are one of them. Anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who I am. I said it, I was wrong and I apologize. I've said some foolish things, but there is a big difference between the words and actions of other people. Bill Clinton has actually abused women and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed and intimidated his victims. We will discuss this more in the coming days. See you at the debate on Sunday.
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All right. So hard on offense, right? Apologize. Then pivots to attacking the Clintons. And then as he said, see in the debate on Sunday, when it came up in the debate a couple days later, here's how Donald Trump dealt with the accusations. S6, please.
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That was locker room talk. I'm not proud of it. I am a person who has great respect for people, for my family, for the people of this country, and certainly I'm not proud of it. But that was something that happened. If you look at Bill Clinton, far worse minor words. And his was action.
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So everybody now thinking about running for president, including maybe even Senator Gallego, has to ask themselves what do they have in their background that if it came out in the course of the campaign they would have a crucible moment and how would they handle it? Have they been honest with their staff, with their family, with their lawyer about everything in their past? People run for present with extraordinary skeletons in their closet and never tell a soul. And I'm sure some have run and won without some of the skeletons being exposed. But you can't count on that. And as I said, the reason I've been so skeptical of people like Senator Kelly, Senator Gallego, Wes Moore, the reason I've been Governor Whitmer, the reason I've been skeptical about them running is I don't think they want to run and deal with skeletons. Same with Gavin Newsom. I've said that before too. It's very hard on a family, even if nothing comes out. But if stuff comes out, it's particularly hard. And Westmore's to me the most interesting case. He says he's not gonna, he said he's not gonna run, but people keep saying he might. He keeps doing stuff that suggests he's keeping the option open. We've seen a series of stories about his past that he really hasn't explained and really hasn't been asked to explain by the so called mainstream media. Some conservative outlets have asked him about it. Here he is one of the few instances where he's been asked by mainstream media. NORA o', donnell, Dominant Media I call him. Norah o' Donnell of CBS asked him about a story that suggested he had not told the truth about why his family left the United States in the face of alleged harassment by the kkk. Watch his tone, watch his manner. Watch how he handles it. This is Wes Moore with Norah O' Donnell S7, please.
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That your great grandfather was run out
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of South Carolina in the 1920s by the KKK. The free beacon is casting doubt on
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that with church records.
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Can you address that? I can address the fact that I
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am the grandson of someone who was
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born in South Carolina and when he was just a child, the Ku Klux Klan ran their family, ran my family out and not out of South Carolina. They ran them out of the United States of America. And they went to Jamaica. So he's defiant, he's deflecting some, not really answering. And it's gonna take a lot of follow ups to get to these things. But, but I look at that as a guy who thinks he can get away with not really addressing all these controversies. And there are many, and just to be clear, there are for everybody. But the question is, do you want to put your family through it? The question is, do you want to take the risk that everything will come out and maybe come out in a way where you'll have some bad luck, where your capacity to get the truth out, if the truth is your friend, isn't that high? George W. Bush said, I did have a dwi, right. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, said he didn't have a relationship with Jennifer Flowers. He said, I, I didn't dodge the draft, right. Donald Trump said, those remarks don't reflect who I really am. There's substantive answers, but then there's the stagecraft of it, the showmanship, the capacity to handle these things. And you know it when you see it, you know who can do it. As I said, Clinton and Trump are in a class by themselves, but Obama and Bush did it too. Hillary Clinton was not good at it. She had plenty of controversies and she was not good at handling it. So when we go back to saying who's going to run, who's going to do well, people look at their issue positions, their poll standing, their fundraising, whether they pass the hang test, whether they're good on tv. These are all super important things. I'm not diminishing them, I'm not saying they aren't big factors, but this is almost the number one factor. Because if you cannot run the gauntlet and survive the crucible, the existential threat of whatever the big skeletons are in your life, you're not going to be nominated. And I look at ruin Gallego's performance the other day. Now maybe he can improve, maybe he can regroup, maybe he can find some advisors who can tell him how to handle it differently. But I look at that thing, eyes down, arms crossed, talking so fast, I look at that and I say, unless that guy's got no skeletons, he's got no business running for president. He's only going to subject his family to a lot of hardship and a lot of pressure. Now, investigative reporters will do what they do, and political opponents will do what they do. Most investigative stories that come out about presidential candidates, I hate to tell you, are not done by shoe leather journalism, where the reporters do all the hard work. Most of them come from either party rivals within the same party or people in the other party who want to stop that person and they put the stuff out. But in the end, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Bill Clinton was the master of saying all came from his political opponents, and a lot of it did. You heard Senator Gallego try to reference that as well. But in the end, as I said, it doesn't matter where it came from. It matters whether it's true or not or how true it is. And it matters how you handle it. And all the people I talked to this week about this, who've worked in Democratic and Republican presidential campaigns or cover them, they all said the same thing, which is, there's a lot of luck involved here. You know, if the controversy happens at a time when there's other news going on, the press can move on.
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And.
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And you got to make your own luck. You got to create distraction as, as Donald Trump did when he talked about the Clintons, as Bill Clinton did when he would talk about the economy. And to try to turn it into something where the voters believed it was. It was put up by the political opponents. As Bill Clinton liked to say, if you see a turtle on a fence post, you know, it didn't get there by itself. Right. So I look at the Gallego case this week for himself as saying, deeply skeptical that he will run, as I have been, but also deeply skeptical that if he does run, he'll be able to handle the crucible. And then I look at all these other people, and I include JD Vance in this and Marco Rubio. I just say there are no perfect people. Everybody's going to have something in their past. But the question is, are you ready to handle it? And is your family ready ready to handle it? Part of why Bill Clinton survived was because Hillary Clinton was right by his side, helping her handle it. And so as you scorecard 2028, as you scorecard the trajectory of Mr. Gallego's political career, ask yourself, are they ready to handle what is going to come at them? Because it ain't easy. All right, love to hear from you. What do you think of this notion of skeletons, people who don't have skeletons? People have skeletons and can handle them, and people have skeletons who cannot. Let me know what you think. Don't be shy. Send me your feedback directly right here, nextuphalperinmail.com what do you think of what I said? If you haven't subscribed to us on YouTube or as a podcast, please do it Please tell your friends about the show. Don't miss out on the full visual experience on the YouTube channel. If you don't subscribe, you won't get the stuff we put on there. That's bonus content. Go to YouTube.com nextupalperen make sure you've signed up there and make sure you've signed up in the podcast version as well and have downloads switched on so you get the show right away. That is the only way to make sure you see everything as soon as it drops. All right, next up, after a quick break here, we're gonna talk about what's up with the American economy. How are people in the Trump administration and around the world dealing with a war that is certainly disruptive? And what about everybody owning a robot? We'll talk to Stephen Moore, longtime economic policymaker and adviser to many, including President Trump. Stephen Moore is next up. Let me ask you something. Do you own physical gold? Most people do not. And given the current state of the world, something worth thinking about. Acre Gold makes it very simple. You pick a plan that fits your budget, make monthly payments, and when you've accumulated enough, they ship you a beautifully designed 24 karat Swiss gold bar. Gold now up 70% year over year, and central banks are still buying at record levels. Smart money has been moving into hard assets for a good reason. Acre Gold has had subscribers stacking consistently now for six years because once you hold it in your hand, you'll understand the difference between owning something real versus just a number on a screen. Right now, they're giving away 18 grams of gold in their Acre declassified sweepstakes. You can enter for free and subscribe to Gold@getacregold.com Mark Go to getacregold.com Mark at some point, golf starts to follow you home. If you own more golf polos than T shirts, if you practice your swing with an umbrella, or if you find golf tees in the laundry, this is a sign. It's time to get a handicap index. When golf becomes part of your daily life, a handicap index is the next step. Track your progress, compete against friends, and make every round mean more. Get your handicap today. Visit usga.org getahandicap to get started. She does a lot for your family. Mother's Day is your chance to show her. You see it with a gift from
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- [33:10]
B
Hi, Mark. So good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
- [33:14]
A
The administration expresses confidence that the economy will be good by the third quarter, pushback from the second quarter because of Iran. And obviously without knowing what will happen in Iran and when, when, when things will even out, we can't be for sure be sure. But if the war does end relatively soon, what argues for a good economy in, in the third quarter for the Americans this year?
- [33:39]
B
Well, Mark, I mean, we did, don't forget for the first five quarters of Trump's second term, we've had a really strong economy. 2025 was a very good year for the economy and for middle income families. We had the lowest gas price, you know, 50 years prior to Iran. So the bet here is that we can get the economy back on the course that it was before the bombs started dropping and the conflict started. I do believe that once we get the strait open so those oil channels are flowing again, it won't take long for the gas price to get back down. And look, the reason people are angry right now is because when gas prices go up and when food prices go up, as has happened, you know, everything tends to go up with it. And so for the affordability issue, Republicans really need to get the gas price back down. By the way, I mentioned the reason, Mark, I mentioned food prices because a lot of people are not aware of this, that, you know, about 40 to 50% of all the fertilizer in the world goes through the Strait of Hormuz. And this is planting season for farmers. So they're really struggling right now. So they, that's another reason we have to get the straight open, because if it doesn't happen quickly, you could see a big spike in food prices.
- [34:59]
A
I wish I could have booked also, not just you, but the Stephen Moore of Iran. I don't know who that would be, but we hear a lot about how the Iranian economy is under pressure. What do you think about that? Do you think that Iran's leaders have weeks or months or days to get their economy moving again. We know they need the oil revenue. We also know they need to import some of the food that the people in their country eat. So what do you know about how much pressure the Iranian economy is under now?
- [35:29]
B
Well, I'm not a foreign policy expert, so I don't know a lot about the Iranian government, but I do know that there are about a bunch of crazy people running that government. And what worries me, just historically speaking, is sometimes when you have these rogue regimes, you know, going back to World War II with Hitler, for example, I mean, he basically wanted to fight until every last German was killed, practically. So you just never know with the kind of maniacs that could be running Iran right now, how much pain and suffering they're willing to impose on their own people. I don't know the answer to that, but it's the question we need to ask. But you're right that this is hurting the Iranian economy more than anyone's, and it's just a question of how much pain they're willing to take.
- [36:13]
A
The economy is interconnected. We've been hearing that now for 25 years. That may be longer. And I read about Australia having, like, weeks to go before they. They won't be able to do things, and that they're a huge exporter of. Of wheat and other agricultural products. Hear about the Asian economies? India.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah.
- [36:34]
A
Well, any of that hurt the United States indirectly in terms of consumer markets, ability to import things that we need, like how. How much danger is there? Not specifically about how gas prices and fertilizer in the U.S. but the world economy suffering.
- [36:49]
B
Yeah, no, this is a very good point you're making. And by the way, do you know what two countries are most dependent on oil from the Middle East?
- [36:58]
A
China and Japan.
- [36:59]
B
China and India, actually, but Japan, too, but India, I think Japan's third or fourth. And so it's kind of a mystery to me why, you know, China and some of these other countries, by the way, the Europeans are more dependent on Middle Eastern oil than we are. So I think it surprised everyone, including the President, that the rest of the world hasn't done more to lift a finger to help get the straight open. I think some of this is just they hate Trump so much, they don't want to help him in this regard, but they're hurting themselves as well. But China is the most interesting one. I mean, they. But they do have a lot of reserves, Mark, I'm told, so that they can in the short term. Shoulder this increased cost. But how much longer? You know, at some point, you know, deplete your reserves and then you start paying a lot more.
- [37:47]
A
The holy trinity of Trump economic policy really across both terms has been lower taxes, less regulation and energy, better energy, more abundant energy, cheaper energy. We talk a lot about the lower taxes embodied in the big one, big beautiful bill. We talk now a lot about energy under dire circumstances. But what's going on with deregulation? What are the achievements there? And what more would you like to see in deregulation?
- [38:14]
B
Just first of all, on the energy issue, I mean, Trump has really been right that we need to produce as much energy here at home as we can. This is sort of the drill, baby, drill, but also use everything we got. Let's use more nuclear power, let's use, use more hydropower when appropriate, you know, wind and solar. It's not going to be a major source of energy here, but we should use it all. And thank goodness we are, because as long as I've been, you know, since the time I've been a teenager, you know, we keep living through these conflicts in the Middle EAS east and they are incredibly disruptive to the US and the world economy. So hopefully at the end of all this, we won't be so dependent on Iran and Saudi Arabia and Qatar and these other countries that we can produce as much of it here at home as we, as we possibly can. Now, on deregulation, this has been a big victory for Trump. By some estimates, the economy has saved about a trillion dollars from just reducing heavy handed regulations that affect businesses and consumers in all sorts of areas. Just a lot of the paperwork requirements on businesses, a lot of the green energy mandates that really cost businesses quite a bit of money. And when businesses reduce their costs like that, a lot of those savings get passed on to a, the shareholders of these companies, which is Americans, but also to consumers as well. So that's been a kind of hidden gem of the Trump economic agenda is just getting, and we're not talking about, you know, getting rid of worker safety rules or things like that, but just excessively expensive regulations where the, where the costs are significantly higher than the benefits. And by the way, the major one, which is controversial was what we call the endangerment finding, which was the idea that CO2 needed to be regulated. I don't believe CO2 is a danger to the world. I know some people can disagree about that. But by getting rid of that endangerment finding, it will reduce a lot of the costs of manufacturing and transportation.
- [40:18]
A
The Tariffs are a complicated story. The markets and the private sector kind of dealt with them in some ways. Other countries did. And then we had the Supreme Court decision invalidating one justification for the tariffs. Some are going back on. We still don't know exactly what the refund situation will be like. So there's individual, micro and individual, company and country implications. But what's the net net of the president's tariffs on our macro economy? Have they been helpful, harmful? Is it going to change now because the Supreme Court decision?
- [40:50]
B
Well, there's a lot there to cover.
- [40:52]
A
Yeah.
- [40:52]
B
I would simply say, first of all, I'm a free trader. Like, you have to be a free. If you're an economist, you have to be for free trade. I mean, if it weren't for trade, we would all be living still in caves. So this is central to what a modern economy is about. Now, Trump knows that I'm not a big fan of terrorists because I am a free trade guy. And by the way, incidentally, Mark, I would make the case, you know, if you look back since the era of Reagan, So the last 40 or 50 years, I could make a case that no country has really benefited more from the move towards global trade than the United States.
- [41:27]
A
I mean, we've dominated without, without a doubt, I don't know, maybe, maybe China, but without a doubt, the United States, yes.
- [41:33]
B
I mean, China probably be number two, but we have greatly benefited from that. Look at the technology revolution and the trillions and trillions of dollars of added net worth to the economy. Now, that being said, Trump does have a case, and he's made the case that a lot of the countries have not played by the rules and that they, we've lowered our tariffs and they haven't. And I've, I've got my fingers crossed and still do, that. The end result of what Trump is trying to achieve here is to get freer and fairer trade for the US and if he can pull that off, that would be fantastic. And we did not see the really big negative effects that a lot of economists thought we would see in 2025, partly because the tariff revenue was offset by some of the other corporate tax cuts and so on. So it was kind of a wash. Now, the big question, where would it go? Where do we go from here? Because the courts have basically said, you know, you've got to return, that these were illegally collected taxes because they did not go through Congress. And by the way, I happen to agree with that decision. I do not think the president, this president or any president should have Unilateral authority to raise taxes. I think that would be negative for everyone. But it's, it's a bit, I think the Supreme Court made, when they made the ruling said this is going to be a mess. And, and it is going to be a mess in terms of who gets the money back. And it looks like a lot of the retailers and so on will get money back. But what about consumers? We, you and I paid some of these tariffs too. Are we going to get money? I don't know how that's going to
- [43:08]
A
get resolved, but again, I'll just ask you, you can answer it quickly. And I did ask you a broad and multi pronged question. Net net from where we are today, from the, from the time the tariffs were instituted originally, net net. As a free trader, have the, have the tariffs been negative for the United States? Awash. Positive.
- [43:26]
B
I'd say, you know, slightly negative, but I think not nearly as apocalyptic as people thought. In part because, you know, I want to see how this plays out. In other words, Trump's case is, look, I've got these great deals with these other countries. You know, I use the threat of tariffs to get Japan and Canada and Korea and China to make better deals. I'm kind of like, okay, let's see, let's see how that turns out.
- [43:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, there's some places where early indications are the US Vis a vis that other country might be end up in a better place. And if tariffs were the stick to do it, even a free trader might be able to hold his nose and say, well, okay, good for the United States. And I think that's been the President's theory on this, the whole macro economy and where we are. I'm a big believer that we're all kidding ourselves if we're not talking about AI as the thing that it's about to, and already is impacting everything. And I'm not calling you a dinosaur, but you've spent your career analyzing the economy without factoring in AI. So just like for me, I've analyzed American politics same way, but every conversation I have with people who are dealing with AI every day in their lives, they just say, Mark, like you guys don't understand what's happening. It's, it's about to be, everything's about to be different. So what, how much do you have your head and arms around that? And, and, and where do you think we'll be in a year in terms of what you think about the macro economy impacted by AI?
- [44:55]
B
How much time have you got? I Mean, that's a big, big. Yeah, I agree with you. This is the issue of the future. No doubt about it. I'll just make a few observations. Number one, we are about to enter the greatest productivity revolution in the history of mankind over the next 2, 5, 10, 15 years. I mean, it's hard to even imagine what the world's going to look like 20 years from now, given how rapidly these changes are coming. Just to give you one little example, Mark, I'm on the board of a company called Lightspeed. I don't know if you've heard of them, but what we do, we're, you know, a startup company. We build houses with robots and you know, we've got the prototypes that work. It's a big question whether we're going to be the first out of the gate with this, but we'll be able to build houses at half the cost with half the time and half the man hours. I mean, it's an incredible thing. But that's just what a little example I mean, think of. Here's another one, Mark. I mean, in the United States, there are between 2 and 3 million truck drivers. How many truck drivers do you think we're going to have in 10 years? I guarantee, you know, probably, you know, close to none because all of that will be automated. So this is. People are afraid of it. I understand. You know, if I were a truck driver, I'd probably be afraid too. But you can't hold back the future and we need to be number one in AI I feel confident we will. We're in a race with, with China. We're going to need a lot more energy. That's a big issue here because these data centers and the robotics use enormous amounts of energy. So we better make sure, you know, that we're getting all the energy we can. But look, it goes, it's like, you know, this is as big as the wheel, this is as big as electricity, the invention of electricity. This is as big has when men started use fire. All of these things are really exciting, but they're sort of fearful. But for people who are afraid of this, I get it, you know, I mean, nobody wants their job destroyed. But think about this. I mean, in 10 or 15 years, we can bring sight to the blind. People in wheelchairs will be able to walk again. I mean, the medical innovation is just going to be incredible. And most of the drudgery work of the past will now be done by computers and robots. So it's hard to even imagine, isn't it? You know how that will change our life and the way we work, the way we play, what we do with our leisure time, all of these things. It's, it's a kind of unknown future.
- [47:18]
A
Yeah, well said. And a lot of upside. And I'm doing my best to contribute in the public dialogue to being optimistic about this, but also trying to educate people to understand that you can't just sit back passively and say, well, I'll wait for AI to give me a four day work week. You got to be active here now.
- [47:35]
B
I think a lot of people, you know, including sometimes myself, think we had to do a Terminator future where we're working for the robots rather than the robots working for us. I mean, it is a bit frightening to people because it's happening so quickly. I mean, it really is. But one thing to think about is probably within 10 or 15 years we'll all have a robot. And so it'll make your coffee for you in the morning. It'll make your bed sooner.
- [47:59]
A
Sooner than that. I need a robot sooner than 10 years. The problem with no truck drivers is where are we going to get hash browns without any truck stops? That's the problem that America faces that hopefully the robots can solve. Steve Moore, grateful to you for coming on and appreciate the conversation. And I want you back regularly to talk about AI because we need people who are wary but optimistic because that's what this is going to take, the future.
- [48:21]
B
Sure, thanks for having me.
- [48:22]
A
Thank you, Steve. All right, next up, Emmy award winning producer comedian Larry Wilmore. Larry Wilmore is next up. Are you being lied to? They tell you to defer paying your taxes by saving in a 401k or an IRA because then you'll retire in a lower tax bracket. But if that were true, why are so many retirees in the highest tax bracket of their lives? It's time to get the truth and discover a better way to grow and protect your money. Bank on yourself is the proven retirement plan alternative that banks and Wall street desperately hope you never hear about. It gives you guaranteed predictable growth that doesn't go backward when the market drops. It can provide tax free retirement income under current tax law, putting you in control of your future tax rate. You also have control of your money. Access it when you need it with no government penalties or restrictions. And your money keeps growing even when you use it. Right now, get a free report that reveals how you can bank on yourself and enjoy tax free retirement income, guaranteed growth and control of your money just right now go to bankonyourself.com mark and get your free report. That's bankonyourself.com mark. School's almost out and at Abercrombie Kids,
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- [50:07]
A
All right, next up and joining me now, Larry Wilmore, Emmy award winning producer, comedian, comedian, writer, showrunner, changes light bulbs, does whatever is required to continue to be employed in a business that is going through a lot of flux. His latest projects, producer of the Hulu legal drama Reasonable Doubt. And he's in an upcoming film on the Netflix streaming platform called One Attempt Remaining, which has a wacky and comical presence premise. Rather, a couple has some crypto and they need to get the password before it expires. And it brings them an X couple, brings them back together. Larry it seems like the most unoriginal plot ever, but I bet it's just a charmer.
- [50:47]
C
It's funny because it's true, Mark. It's funny because it's true. That's why.
- [50:50]
A
What do you play in that? Do you play like the crypto merchant? What do you play?
- [50:53]
C
No, actually I play a part where John Cena is trying, you know, his life is kind of in the shambles after he's going through a divorce and everything. And he's just trying to rustle up some kind of money, some kind of belief in him. And I'm the guy who's saying, no, that's just not gonna do it, you know, at the.
- [51:11]
A
Do you play, do you play the wise but somewhat wacky best friend?
- [51:15]
C
Did you say the wife? Is that what you said?
- [51:17]
A
I said the wise but somewhat wacky.
- [51:19]
C
Yes, exactly. I'm more, I'm more of the kind of the straight undercurrent of common sense that what you're doing does not make sense and I'm here to just block you, you know?
- [51:31]
A
Got it. Hollywood's weird now, right? Because there's, there's, there's, there's, there's so many platforms, but everybody's worried about Jobs. Shouldn't there be just unlimited Jobs now? Because there's, there's shows, Apple and Netflix
- [51:45]
C
and Hulu and I mean, it seems like that, but a lot of the platforms show content that's already been produced. You know, there's a lot of.
- [51:53]
A
Right.
- [51:54]
C
Regurgitation going on and there's a lot of. I think a lot of young people have different tastes on some of those tastes of comfort food, of watching Friends from 30 years ago or Seinfeld or some of those shows. So. And there's a lot of things that are. We call it unscripted, you know, where they're not necessarily work for actors and writers to do, but more for, you know, they're a peek into somebody's life. Like the Kardashians kind of started that whole.
- [52:22]
A
Right, yeah.
- [52:23]
C
So the whole unscripted realm, everything from cooking shows to that. They're not really the industry generating type of machines that have writers working all the time, actors working and all these other people. So it's kind of. It's changed a lot of these things as well as. If we want to talk about the economics of it, a lot of it changed because some of these companies wanted to be like streamers. They wanted to have their own kind of walled garden. And what happened was they lost the ability to sell their product, like to the syndication market. And losing those big profit centers really took a. A big punch in the gut to how they could be profitable. So it's kind of interesting how it came around.
- [53:09]
A
Right. Our careers are often compared because they're hauntingly similar in. At least. In at least this respect.
- [53:15]
B
You.
- [53:15]
A
You like. I. We do on camera stuff.
- [53:18]
C
Yes.
- [53:18]
A
But we also know about production and we also know about the business side of our business. And as you well know, there are plenty of comedians who have no idea how they make money. They just go where they're told and they perform. And then they expect their manager to send them some checks. You are triple threat, you understand? All three. So where are you headed now? Are you going to continue to do all three of those things or would you hope to focus on one or two of them?
- [53:41]
C
It's a great question, you know, because I've always been someone who's been interested in many different things, not just one thing. And I started my career as a performer who was kind of a writer second. And then I kind of transitioned into someone who was a writer first and performer second. Right. But now I'm starting to perform a lot more. I just started doing stand up again after taking a long time off. I actually performed magic. A lot of people don't know. I'm a member of the Magic Castle. I've been a member there for 30 years. And actually.
- [54:11]
A
Can you get me. Can you get me in there?
- [54:13]
C
I can get you in. Mark, I got it. I got you, man.
- [54:15]
A
It's on My bucket list. Tell everybody. Not everybody knows what that is, but tell everybody what the Magic Castle is. I've read about it.
- [54:22]
C
It's this institution. It's like this big old Victorian mansion, or Edwardian, if we're going to be specific, because I'm a man of words. And it's. It opened like in the early 60s and. And it's a place where it was initially built so magicians could kind of hang out and kind of, you know, have this club for themselves. But it really turned into this kind of cool institution where you could see some of the most amazing performers in the world perform right up close, you know, and there's rooms all over the place, so you never know what you're going to run into. And magic has had kind of a renaissance in the last couple of years, Mark. Especially mentalism, which is kind of a branch of it.
- [55:00]
A
Yeah.
- [55:00]
C
And I think there's so much technology and we've lost so much what I call wonder in the world. And I think it's important, especially as a young people, to have something that brings them wonder, you know?
- [55:12]
A
Yeah.
- [55:12]
C
And magic is one of those things. And a corollary to that, Mark.
- [55:15]
A
Totally agree.
- [55:16]
C
When I was growing up, I called myself. I'm not really a boomer and I'm not really Gen X. I was born in 61. I call myself moonshot generation. And what I mean by that is like, that's what fed my soul growing up, was trying to get to the moon and astronauts. I wanted to be an astronaut as a kid. So I was filled with a sense of wonder as part of my life. And I feel sorry for people that don't have that feeling, you know, and the Artemis 2 mission kind of brought that back for a lot of people and some people had never experienced. I mean, look how much energy people spend trying to prove that the moon landing didn't happen. Because they don't know what wonder is. They haven't experienced the fact that you can think outside of. Of something normal or something mundane, that you can try to do something above, you know, the ordinary, you know.
- [56:03]
A
Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. What kind of magic do you do? Do you card tricks or make?
- [56:08]
C
Mainly sleight of hand. Yeah, mainly sleight of hand. But I do some parlor like stuff too, you know, like just a normal thing. Oh, you can't see because it's blurred. So that's all right.
- [56:19]
A
What are we gonna do? You just happen to have your magic right there.
- [56:21]
C
You know, you could do things I can't do right now because I'M blurred right now, but I always have a deck of cards in my hand, you know, like whenever I'd be on shows writing, I'd always be shuffling the deck or playing with corners, that type of thing. But it's more the interaction with the audience too, Mark. And I love audience connection. That's what I love about stand up. That's where you learn like, like, what are people actually laughing at? You know, what's really fun funny, what's, what's moving them right now. When I started as a stand up, I was one of those comics. I really didn't work much. Even though I was from Los Angeles, I didn't do a lot of work in LA and New York. I did most of my work on the road. What I. In America, right?
- [57:00]
A
Yeah.
- [57:01]
C
And when you have to go to all these different towns, Mark, and you got to make all different types of people laugh, you really get a sense of the country, you know, and what, what people really think is funny and what's funny about yourself in that translation. And getting back into stand up is a great way to connect back with that audience, you know, and feel that again. So it's very exciting.
- [57:21]
A
I love the comedy. I mean, the magic renaissance. And I love comedian magicians who are also comedians. Right. Those are my favorite now because they're not like Doug Henning or David Copperfield, just like completely freaky and unfunny. They got patter too. Right? That's great.
- [57:37]
C
We don't take ourselves very seriously, trust me.
- [57:40]
A
And, and there's a, there's a comedy renaissance too. At least I think there is. And I do.
- [57:45]
C
I agree.
- [57:46]
A
So what, what accounts for that? I mean. Well, if I go to the Comedy Cellar or I watch on Netflix, I just. The number of extraordinarily talented comedians now seems unprecedented and. Or at least, at least unusual. So what's driving that? Is it just because there's venues and, and, and digital, so we're seeing people who otherwise wouldn't have been famous before?
- [58:05]
C
It is a great question mark. And I didn't realize the extent of it until I jumped back in the clubs.
- [58:11]
A
Yeah.
- [58:11]
C
And I got the experience of it firsthand. And I'm like, good lord, there's so many talented people on stage here. You don't get a sense of it when you see it online or on tv, because TV really doesn't present comedians the way it used to, you know? And you're absolutely right. There is a renaissance. I think it's a, it's a combo platter of thing I think comedians are emerging at the same time that the audience really needs an escape that to them feels maybe safe or, you know, they can be with a group of people. Remember, movies aren't that big of a thing anymore. We used to get together to watch movies where we cry together and laugh together. We don't really do that anymore. People are watching their phones. Comedy clubs are one of the few places where people get together and they share laughs. Sometimes, you know, dangerous things might happen where, you know, somebody may touch third rail. Who knows? You know, a lot of what's popular online right now is what comedians call crowd work is kind of the technical term for it. And the reason why it's popular is because people know that it's something that happened in the moment. It was a spontaneous event. And the only way to truly experience that is to be there, to be there in person and get the experience of this performer. You know, there are many different styles that are. Are kind of popular now. Nate Bozzi is kind of the leader of what's called clean comedy. Clean comedy movie. Yeah. And these are people. I think what's special about that, Mark, is that people feel they can bring their whole family to a comedy show, which they felt they haven't been able to do in a long time.
- [59:42]
A
Yeah.
- [59:42]
C
And by the way, that's what I get when I perform magic. Like, a whole family can come watch my magic. And the experience of that is fantastic, that you can have, you know, the teenagers there enjoying it or the kids along with the parents. So family entertainment is an underserved market to me, in the past, let's say, 30 years. So if you think of it as family entertainment and a way for people to get together and share an experience, that's what's driving it culturally.
- [60:10]
A
Yeah.
- [60:10]
C
On the other hand, you have performers who don't have outlets to fame and things like that that they used to have. Comedians aren't being picked anymore to do sitcoms, that kind of thing. There isn't the same type of plucking someone out of obscurity, making them a star a lot.
- [60:30]
A
I think. I think that's because the John Mulaney sitcom was so horrible. Ruined it for everybody.
- [60:35]
C
Wow.
- [60:36]
A
Well, that was a.
- [60:37]
C
That was a deep cut. You remember that, actually? Actually. Oh, yeah, I remember that show. Yeah. And John Mulaney is hilarious. Go figure.
- [60:43]
A
Hilarious. But it didn't translate.
- [60:45]
C
It actually is a good point. You know, that's not just a.
- [60:49]
A
Who isn't a throwaway line. I'm an historian of American history. Like, I Screwed it up for everybody.
- [60:54]
C
I know how intentional everything you say is, Mark. That is my deep respect for you.
- [60:58]
A
Yeah, sorry I interrupted, but you're right. It's not as common for a stand up to suddenly get a sitcom like say the Seinfeld thing. That worked out better.
- [61:06]
C
Yes. And so if you look at somebody like what's Trevor's like? Trevor Noah. Trevor. Noah sat in one of the most hallowed seats at the time, John Stewart's chair. Right. On the Daily show. And he walked away. Why did he walk away? Because, number one, it was too confined. He couldn't really do anything else. And he can make so much more money on the road as a stand up comedian than he can on a cable show where his life is tied up in that show 24 7. Because that's really the lifestyle that you have. You really can't do anything else. And that never would have happened, you know, in the past, you know.
- [61:48]
A
Yeah.
- [61:48]
C
So you have a lot of creative people who don't have to worry about impressing these guardians of the gate. They can find their own audience directly marks. So that to me, that spurs creativity. You know, you get diamonds in the rough. People who get out there who probably wouldn't have seen before, who are getting out there doing it, because the road to making money and being successful, it's a lot shorter. There's not as many obstacles, you know. Yeah.
- [62:16]
A
One of the great gigs in all of comedy has been the White House Correspondents Dinner, which you did this year. The president, President Trump's going for the first time as president and instead of having a comedian, they're having mentalist Oz Perlman. Do you know the work, the oeuvre of mentalist Oz Perlman?
- [62:33]
C
Oz is an amazing performer. He's having a moment right now. Yeah, I guess you could say, you know, and it's funny because a lot of the stuff he's done, people have done before, but he's, he's the man now doing it and presenting in a way that I think is fantastic. And what's really driven his fame a lot is social media, you know, a lot of the things that he's posted and that we only see a clip of it, so you don't get the full experience of it. But it's an interesting shift, you know, of going away from the comedian who's maybe might critique.
- [63:04]
A
Yeah.
- [63:06]
C
The President or that type of thing.
- [63:08]
A
Have you seen Oz Perlman in person?
- [63:10]
C
Yeah, I've actually met Oz years ago.
- [63:13]
A
What's, what's the show like? What am I Going to see at the dinner, because I'm going this year for the first time in forever.
- [63:18]
C
Oh, awesome. Oz is going to blow you away. You're going to think something's not right, you know?
- [63:23]
A
Yeah. Is it like David Blaine, where he does stuff and I say, well, I know how he did it. It's impossible. Like, is that easy.
- [63:30]
C
He's not gonna. He's not gonna harm himself in the way David Blaine might. Like, he's not gonna stick needles in his arms. And that's actually what he's really doing, you know, or bury himself.
- [63:40]
A
Let me ask you this. What's the difference between a mentalist and a magician?
- [63:43]
C
Okay, so very good question. And there are, they're actually. Let me answer that first. There are actually two different types of mentalists, to be honest with you. There is one type of mentalist which magicians consider unethical, and then the second type. This is news for a lot of people don't know this.
- [64:01]
A
I'm taking notes.
- [64:02]
C
Which magicians consider ethical. Okay.
- [64:04]
A
Yeah.
- [64:05]
C
The unethical mentalist. And I'm not going to make that judgment. I'm just telling you how it is.
- [64:11]
A
Yeah.
- [64:11]
C
Is someone who presents themselves as ethical actually having mental powers and actually being able to do things with their mind, and that's a fact that they're presenting to you. I'll give you like, what's kind of.
- [64:22]
A
What's the kind of thing, like bend a spoon.
- [64:24]
C
Exactly. And they're saying that this is because of my mental abilities.
- [64:28]
A
Right.
- [64:28]
C
And they stand by that.
- [64:30]
A
And the second, the second kind, don't pretend it's real.
- [64:33]
C
They, they're kind of. They're not as direct with language about it. You'll. You'll find that they'll give other explanations than that. You know, they're a little more cagey about the language. They don't want to be too specific about what it is, but they're not. You'll find that even Oz, if you look at his interviews, he'll give other types of explanations. You know, so what you're saying, what
- [64:58]
A
you're saying is magicians are morally reproachful and very specific about language.
- [65:03]
C
Magicians lie to you, but they tell you that that's what they're doing. And fun is that you don't know the nature, the true nature of that lie. Mentalist lie to you, but they actually, they. They actually give you a lie, a real lie, that they're mentalists. Right. So that's, that's the difference.
- [65:24]
A
All right. We've barely talked about President Trump, which is rare for any conversation in America to go on this long without it coming up. So have you been to the Mark Twain Awards before?
- [65:36]
C
I have not. I've done it.
- [65:37]
A
It's one of the best events in all of comedy. I've been, I've been. I went to the, when David Chappelle won and I watch it every year. I just, it's an incredible event. And, and they're giving it to. What's his name, Bill Maher. Yes. And there was some controversy about whether he was going to get it or not. It's sort of confusing. But it's now the Trump Kennedy Center. So first question is, how do you feel about that?
- [66:02]
C
Well, the Trump can. Who, Senator is ridiculous. You know, just especially putting your name on something like that. I mean, I'm in a long line of people who think that is crazy. You know, there's no reason to do that. The argument that it needed refurbishing is not an argument to put your name on it, you know. You know, especially for the memory of a fallen president, you know, like, and a supporter of the arts. I hardly find Trump to be a true supporter of the arts or whatever. But having said that, I'm very happy that someone like Bill Maher is being honored because I, I think Bill is an example of Twain speech. You know, I'm a big fan of Mark Twain also. And you know, Mark Twain in his heyday, know, he traveled around the country when people really didn't do that type of thing, you know, and gave extemporaneous speeches and things like that, you know, and he, he could rile people up and have fun as well as, you know, the novels that he wrote and all that kind of stuff, you know, but he was, he was, it wasn't really a stand up, but he was kind of a live performer for what he did.
- [67:14]
A
Really one of the great, one of
- [67:15]
C
the true American geniuses, completely, you know, and it's such an honor to get something like that. I think Bill, I'm, I'm a fan of what Bill has done over the years because I think he really has been the example of having both sides being able to have opinions in a safe space, you know, and not feel threatened that because they're on a certain side, that they need to be attacked personally for having a different opinion. And that to me is a big win.
- [67:44]
A
Would you perform? If invited to perform, would you perform at the Trump Kennedy center or would you not on principle?
- [67:50]
C
I don't have those kind of thoughts, actually. You know, I Take all those things as individual decisions. I don't have a personal stance against something like that necessarily. I would have.
- [68:02]
A
So if they offered you like a five night gig with a lot of money, you'd have no problem doing it?
- [68:07]
C
I don't know if I'd have no problem doing it. I'd have to see what it was actually for. I'd have to wait. That's the thing.
- [68:12]
A
Okay. And, and, and, and if you were offered, if you were awarded the, the Mark Twain Prize by the Trump Kennedy center, which you accept that honor, as Bill seems to be doing. Absolutely.
- [68:21]
C
I mean, the Twain Prize is an honorable prize. Yeah.
- [68:24]
A
I have no problem. Okay. Is there anybody in the Trump administration you find good? Anybody you like, anybody you admire? Anybody you, you think, well, I'm glad they're in that job.
- [68:35]
C
Here's the thing, Mark. So the thing about criticizing Trump is that on many issues, Trump's. Here's what I like to say. Trump's not wrong on a lot of things. He's just far from right from my point of view. You know, and that's why sometimes it's hard to criticize Trump cleanly. You know, I'll give you an example. Like if someone said, you know, Larry, during slavery, black unemployment was zero percent, I would say, you know what? You're not wrong. You know, but the distance from right is pretty vast. You know, so many issues, even like immigration, I mean, or the situation in Iran right now. Has Iran been a sponsor of terror for years and years? Absolutely. But I think the distance from right of how to approach that is where my critique comes in in the Trump administration. And I wish there were more adults around. I've always been a fan of Marco Rubio. He's someone that I've always liked and always thought that he was a pretty steady guy, you know, definitely a smart, smart guy. And he definitely has the experience and the breadth of institutional knowledge to kind of know, you know, where you should tread and where you shouldn't. Who knows how much his voice is actually heard. But I think he really has a compulsion of, really want to please, you know, and be liked and that type of thing. But Marco's a guy I've always, I've always liked.
- [69:56]
A
How about, how about Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary? Does he seem like he's doing a good job to you?
- [70:01]
C
It's hard to say. People in those positions, there's so many people where it feels like, you know, it's just so much allegiance to the glorious leader, and it's hard to sift it's hard to sift through that. I haven't spent a lot of time observing what he's been doing. But, you know, any collusion with all the tariff strategy and all that, to me is just a losing type of thing.
- [70:28]
A
Yeah. Are there any. Besides in the United States, are there any world leaders on the stage today you find compelling? Compelling. You'd like to have dinner with or go to. Go to Disney World with?
- [70:38]
C
That is an interesting question. You know, I think I would probably. Of everyone, I think of the person that Trump is currently having a beef with, and that's the Pope. You know, I mean, he's American, from. My family's from Chicago. He's from Chicago. You know, it would be interesting to actually talk to the Pope and get his true take on things of all the leaders in the world, and I'm Catholic, so there's the thing there, you know.
- [71:06]
A
Yeah.
- [71:08]
C
He's the person that I think of. And this whole beef that Trump has with the Pope is just ridiculous. It's very. It's very medieval to me, by the way. It's very. It's very. It's more Henry VIII than Jesus. You know, I don't know if Trump showed memes of him as Henry viii. I think that would be more appropriate than showing these memes of him as Jesus.
- [71:29]
A
I know it's gotten covered, obviously, but I just think the fact that there's an American Pope has not gotten enough attention. Oh, it's just, like, massive. It's almost impossible to understand. And because he's from Chicago, our finest city, it becomes even a bigger deal. Yeah.
- [71:43]
C
And I think, because that's the fact, we kind of maybe discount the Pope. I think the Pope seems more Popey when you can't really understand what he's saying. And it's of kind gotta be translated. He doesn't seem that Popey when he's maybe had a slo dog, you know, or something like that, or, you know, talking about the Cubs. It doesn't seem real Popey, so I get that part of it, you know, because it's good when you can't understand the Pope that's much more Popey.
- [72:06]
A
Yeah. You want Popey mystery. Are you. Are you angling to get your own show again? Would you like to have, like, your own show that you started?
- [72:15]
C
No, I don't really think of those type of things. I'm always thinking about expression first. You know, what's the thing that I want to talk about or do, and then what's the right way to do it more so than have to do something for me. Although I think I. I may pop up in the podcast. Podcast space pretty soon again with something different. I like that space a lot, you know.
- [72:39]
A
Yeah.
- [72:39]
C
In terms of television, I don't have any desire to do that. If something. If it was the right thing, maybe, but it's not like a desire. I love creating TV shows and writing them and producing them, that type of stuff. And so I have some projects that I'm working on right now that might come to fruition.
- [72:54]
A
All right, this is one of my standard questions. What's your greatest unfulfilled professional ambition?
- [73:04]
C
Probably having my own sitcom as opposed to my own talk show. Yeah, my own sitcom was what I was really trying. Had thought about doing and trying to create for years and years. Never really worked out, but I got to have my own show. So.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah. Do you have like 100 ideas for sitcoms you'd start in?
- [73:24]
C
Not 100, but I've had a few. I sold one a couple of years ago that actually was on a track to really make it. And then the writer strike happened and it kind of lost steam. But I sold it to ABC, D.C. and it was kind of.
- [73:36]
A
I hope it was called Larry, exclamation point.
- [73:39]
C
It was almost like my Larry Sanders kind of take a late night television more from. From the point of view that I had, you know. So it was that.
- [73:48]
A
That. That's one of the finest shows in the history of television, I think.
- [73:51]
C
Well, if I'm going to compare it to something.
- [73:52]
A
Yeah, there you go. And you can't revive that because I'm pretty sure the writer strikes over.
- [73:57]
C
You know, television just doesn't work like that.
- [73:59]
A
Yeah.
- [74:00]
C
When something's in the trash, it never gets. Nobody ever picks it out of the trash.
- [74:04]
A
Yeah, there's so many things about Hollywood where that's true. Like when I was trying to sell a drama. Well, I'll say Game Change. When they made the Game Change film. Yeah, it was never green lit. I was an expression. I always knew it's gotta be greenlit. You know, they've signed a development deal, they're talking to potential director. And I kept waiting for them to say, you know, we're making it. And then just all of a sudden they were making it. There was no moment where they said, we're making it. They just started making it. And Hollywood just has so many things like that that if you've worked there and you've worked there, obviously a lot more than I have, it's just all just a Cultural weirdness. And that's one thing. Like if you got a good idea and it dies for the writers strike, it should revive. But you're right, it never will.
- [74:45]
C
No. Hollywood invented ghosting. They really did. They were the original ones and perfected it. Oh, they perfected ghosting. I mean it. In that particular project, I didn't even know it was. I found out it was dead, like three months after that decision had been made. So I had been ghosted, like months earlier and hadn't even known it. You know, that. That's just one example. But that type of thing in Hollywood happens all the time. All the time. And to everybody. No one's immune for it. Doesn't matter how big, how small.
- [75:15]
A
Probably didn't happen to Tom Cruise.
- [75:18]
C
Oh, I'm sure Tom Cruise is.
- [75:19]
A
Really. Yeah.
- [75:20]
C
I mean, it's a different type of ghosting.
- [75:22]
A
Yeah, I'd make him. I'd make him. Or I'd make him audition for anything you wanted to do with me.
- [75:28]
C
You never know.
- [75:29]
A
Let's run through your stuff so everybody knows. When's the. When's that film coming out with Jennifer Garner?
- [75:34]
C
Film comes out sometime next year. But I will be. Larry David is doing a new show in HBO, like a special celebrating 250 years of America, and that'll be on HBO this summer. So people can catch me in that. I'm popping up in clubs here and there, so look for me in that, especially in la.
- [75:52]
A
How do people. How do people track your.
- [75:54]
C
At Larry Wilmore Instagram. And I post all these things so people can track it. I'll be doing some coverage for the White House correspondent Center for CNN next week.
- [76:03]
A
If people really, like, live on the red carpet or in studio, I'll be
- [76:06]
C
in a studio and I'll be, you know, just weighing in on that. So, you know, I'll be talking about Osmond.
- [76:12]
A
I'll just ask if you're. If you're doing live coverage and I walk on the red carpet, don't say I look chubby. That's all right.
- [76:18]
C
I'm get you, Mark. I gotta go. You know, just.
- [76:21]
A
Just say, you know, I will say he looks svelte.
- [76:25]
C
I'll say, you know, once again, it's a game change. You look at Mark, all you can say, he's changing the game again.
- [76:32]
A
And do you ever do live in New York in Gotham City here?
- [76:35]
C
Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes when I'm there, I'll pop in some clubs, like comedy seller and that type of thing, you know?
- [76:42]
A
Yeah, you know, you know, the new venue, the comedy seller is opening in a few weeks. You know about that?
- [76:46]
C
Oh, which one?
- [76:48]
A
The comedy seller's opening a fourth venue. They bought the McDonald's on 6th Avenue.
- [76:51]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [76:52]
A
I know this because my friend Gnome owns the place and it's going to be, it's, it's going to be the biggest comedy palace in the United States. So I look forward to seeing you there.
- [77:01]
C
If it's a palace, I'm going to have to go then.
- [77:03]
A
I mean, King Larry. Larry, thank you, Larry Wilmore, ladies and gentlemen. Love having you on. I hope you come back and promote the hell out of whatever you're doing.
- [77:10]
C
Oh, you know, it's so nice to have me. I really appreciate it. Like I said, I've been a fan for so long. Mark, you're the best.
- [77:16]
A
Thank you. Really nice man. Thank you. Good luck to you and everything you're doing. That's all for today's program, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks to Larry Wilmore and Steve Moore for being here, lending us their time and their perspectives on everything. Be back right here in this very comfortable chair on Tuesday with another brand new episode. You won't want to miss it. I won't miss it. It's unpaid to be here. Have a fantastic weekend. Remember to spread the word and get other nexters here to enjoy the program. Family, friends, even tell your enemies about our program. So everybody possible subscribes to the YouTube channel and the podcast platforms. Thank you. If you join us, if you stay with us, if you become an extra, you will always know what's coming. Next up.