← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
The Media and DC's Dangerous Path of Demonizing, Plus NBC’s Morgan Radford on the Future of News and Her New Novel
01:14:10
Mark Halperin’s reported monologue tackles one of the most urgent questions in American life today: can the country overcome its deepening culture of political dehumanization? In a powerful presentation, Mark examines the rhetoric, tribalism, and condemnation fueling division across both sides of the aisle, while Katie Pavlich weighs in on political violence, media double standards, and what it would actually take to reduce America’s growing culture of outrage. Plus, NBC’s Morgan Radford joins Mark to discuss her debut novel “Now Then”, exploring love, culture, and self-discovery. They also kick around what young people really want from the media and what’s working in American politics. Covering everything from motherhood to anchoring, Radford offers a fresh perspective on storytelling, trust, and the future of news. And the new “Mark the Mailman” segment, where he answers viewer questions on journalism bias, political rhetoric, and the Trump assassination attempt. Bank On Yourse...
Loading summary
Transcript225 lines
- [00:00]
Commercial Announcer 1
Are you looking for the best deal on a new home? Discover the Dr. Horton home of the Week. With new construction homes now selling in ellensburg from the mid-3002, Dr. Horton has the right home at the best value for you, offering one and two story homes near Central Washington University. Your new home is within reach. So what are you waiting for? Learn more about the Dr. Horton Home of the Week. Visit drhorton.com and schedule a tour today. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.
- [00:30]
Commercial Announcer 2
A text says you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800-Flowers says you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime with gifts they'll cherish forever. Their expertly curated arrangements and gift baskets shipped nationwide with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Don't wait for the next big moment. Make it when you visit 1-800-flowers.com sxm today, that's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm.
- [01:03]
Mark Halperin
Welcome one and all people of Earth to NextUp. I'm Mark Halperin, your host. I serve as the editor in chief of the live interactive video platform two way. And I host this here program for you called NextUp with Mark Halperin. Thank you for being here. Great show today. Two wonderful guests, both of whom appear on television on a daily basis and are spectacularly smart people. Not everyone who appears on TV is smart. I'm sorry to break that news to you. Many just read the teleprompter. Not these two ladies. Katie Pavlich, host of the Katie Pav of Katie Pavlich tonight on News Nation every weeknight at 10pm and Morgan Radford, the anchor of NBC News Daily on the NBC network and also the author of a new book called Now Then. It's a novel. And really looking forward to hearing having you hear my conversation with Morgan about not just the book, but about parenthood and everything else she's got going on. Looking forward to having both these ladies on the program and talk about journalism and writing and everything else. Before they're here, though, this week's reported monologue. There's a lot of news this week and I haven't had the luxury of focusing on just one topic, talking to sources in and out of the government about both things. And so I'm going to I'm going to do two different topics here in the reported monologue. And the first is the Iran war as the president considers his options. Had A bit of an epiphany in the last 24 hours or so about where things stand. You know, we've, we've, we've been, for the last several weeks, we've been kind of on a knife's edge between thinking maybe there'll be a negotiated settlement to end the war in Islamabad, where they have one meeting, and maybe, as the President has said, the Iranians will give in, and then on the far end, worries about World War Three, where it does not appear that they're headed towards an agreement. The ceasefire has largely held, the blockades the dueling blockades have largely held, and the world economy is suffering for it. So can the US stand, stay with this policy for the long term? No. The epiphany that I've had from talking to folks, and this is informed by talking to people in and outside the government, as well as analysts who follow all this closely, is that there's not going to be a negotiated settlement with this government under these conditions. Just, it's not going to happen. Now, do I say it's 0% chance it will happen? No, but very unlikely to happen because this government's not not interested in a settlement. This, this is a group of people who have withstood years of hardship, including during the Iran Iraq war. It's a group of political leaders whose whole reason to exist, whether you want to say it's out of religious fanaticism and a desire to destroy Israel in the United States, or you want to say it's because they're just, you know, people of power who know that their power will disappear if they give in. Whichever you want to attribute it to, there's just no way that the Iranians can. Will give in unless something changes. So the US strategy right now is to do a blockade, keep Iran from getting access to oil, do other economic things under the direction of Scott Bessant, the Secretary of the treasury, to try to ruin the Iranian economy and then to threaten and perhaps use military force to change the conditions. Right. And maybe change the government. But one of those two things, or both, have to change in order to bring this about. And part of why we see through a glass darkly, we don't. It's so opaque to understand what are the. What are the. What has to happen for the Iranians to give in is twofold. First of all, it's a closed society. The Internet's down. You know, the senior Iranian people are on Twitter and speak occasionally in the media, but we don't really know what's going on. What's going on with the Iranian people and the possibility of some sort of coup or protests. But also because it's hard to understand the Iranians, it's hard to understand this. And you really have to be multidisciplinary to even make an educated guess. You have to understand Iran, Iranian culture, the Iranian specifics of the current Iranian leaders. You have to understand military, you have to understand economics, you have to understand the oil industry, you have to understand shipping. Right. To really bring together a multidisciplinary perspective, even in the federal government, of the chances that the Iranians will negotiate what the President's insisting on at a minimum, which is they give up their nuclear program. To really understand that, you got to. You got to know a lot about a lot. And there are very few people even in the government who do. And I'm. I'm always a little bit shaken, taken aback, whatever word you want to use. When I talk to people about this in the government, with Congress, knowledgeable people in Congress and the executive branch, they express different points of view of confidence that the US Is on track to break the will of the Iranian leaders and get them to the negotiating table for real. The President now says this week, I'm not sending folks to Islamabad to hear an Iranian counteroffer that's just going to be rejected because it doesn't go far enough in dismantling their, their nuclear program. And so from his point of view, something has to change. And that's my strong sense from talking to people. Either the government has to change, as I said, the conditions have to change, or both. Here's an op ed piece that ran in the Wall Street Journal today by two foreign policy experts, a guy at the Council on Foreign Relations and then someone at the foundation for Defense of Democracies, both of whom really want the. The US to win this war. But here's what they write. It's pretty long, but I'm going to read it to you because I think it perfectly frames where we're at. They're hopeful, as many are in the west, that the Iranian regime will fall. They say it's entirely possible that the theocracy will crack. All countries have an economic breaking point. Severe economic hardship much worse than what Iran experienced during the Iran Iraq War will soon slam the region. Another insurrection may yet topple the mullahs and the irgc. Authoritarian regimes always seem indomitable until they're not. That could happen. That could happen. And I'm not predicting it won't. And I certainly hope that it does. And if it happened. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. But what we've learned so far in this conflict is that it's unlikely to happen. It's unlikely that the, that the Iranian regime will be, there'll be a coup, they'll be toppled by a pro, by pro mass protests, or that they'll just decide that their lives will be better if they agree to the American conditions, particularly on nuclear. And these two writers, these two experts say that in the, in their conclusion, they say, after holding out hope that there could be a toppling of the regime, they say, but the Islamic Republic has demonstrated a resilience that should make us wary of quick fixes. That's a key sentence, folks. They've demonstrated a resilience that should make us wary of quick fixes. The regime's resistance economy, designed to be insulated from pressure by other countries, is into its fourth decade. In addition, the revolutionary elites see itself as the vanguard of the Almighty. Okay, so as a practical matter, the Iranians have planned to withstand this kind of moment. And as a matter of psychology, of theocracy, they, they think they're doing the Lord's work by, with, by holding up and by resisting the United States efforts to get them to give up their nuclear weapons. They go on in their conclusion, given the repeated insurrections, the Iranian people's obvious fondness for Western ways, and the conspiracy addled conviction within the regime that America has fueled and guided internal uprisings, Iran's rulers and their foot soldiers see themselves as the last redoubt against unbelief. These are true believers, folks, who are vested in the status quo. Finally, they say, in conclusion, if the regime doesn't crack, we could be in for a long struggle that will require commitment, patience and discipline across the US Government. So with gas prices high, with allies in a panic, with the American military spending starting to be revealed and taxpayers getting sticker shock with the conflict into it heading towards its 60th day, which in theory would require a war powers resolution. With all of that, do you think the United States government, throughout the government, is ready to demonstrate commitment, patience and discipline? I don't think so. Not for much longer would be my guess. And, and, and particularly the midterms are a real factor, so, and gas prices are a real factor. So we'll see what happens. But this is why so many sources are saying the President is going to consider military action. This is why I say if you think you're going to break the spirit of the Iranians and get them to give up their nuclear program simply with a blockade and simply with economic sanctions. If you think they're going to panic over their oil system being destroyed because of a backlog of oil again, you gotta, you gotta play the odds. You gotta look at history. You have to look at past as prologue to some extent. If that, that's, that's. That's the base case. That's the most obvious thing. That's the most likely thing. The most likely thing is it is going to take substantial difference of conditions or leadership for the Iranians to go to the negotiating table for real. That's why the president isn't sending anybody to Islamabad without a change. That is why he's considering military action. That is why these writers say it's gonna. This is gonna be a long process. This is why some people are really worried about where the United States is right now. Despite the President's professions of confidence, of success, we're dealing with a group of people who appear to be unmoved and may be unmovable even by the combination of economic and military pressure that's currently being deployed. And some worry that if there's another US Military action, it will simply lead to an escalation, a dangerous escalation on the part of the Iranians striking back. I hope this ends up well. I hope the Iranians collapse, the government collapses. I hope they come and negotiate a deal that the President can be proud of that justifies what's already occurred. But I have sources who are concerned. We'll keep following that. Let me go the second topic I want to talk to you about. I've talked to so many people since Saturday in the wake of the shooting and the reaction to the shooting, attempted, alleged attempted assassination of the president at the White House Correspondents association dinner about rhetoric. And I've been dealing with this question of rhetoric on both sides now for decades. I don't like to just talk about it. I like stuff to happen about it. I'd like us to be able to solve this problem of the tension that's being caused in our country by the tribal warfare. Okay? It's great fodder to talk about, particularly if you're in tribal media. It's great to talk about how horrible the other side is. I, I've said all week, I don't. I don't believe in an accounting of, oh, well, one side's worse than the other. I'm not saying both sides are equal. I never have. What I'm saying is both sides have grievances. The left has grievances about the President from January 6th and other things that he has said and done. The right has grievances about the political violence, not just rhetoric that's come from the left. Some of you will hear that one sentence I just uttered and say, oh, Mark, siding with the other side. You'll. Both people on both sides will say that one sentence is. Is me siding with the other side. I'm not siding with anybody. I'm siding with the American people to try to bring us together. And one of the few encouraging things that I've heard amidst all the fighting this week is from Erica Kirk. What a. What a. What a brave person Erica Kirk is. What a. What, what strength she has shown since Charlie was killed. What discipline she's shown in trying to take care of her family, run the organization and figure out a path forward to. For her personally and professionally. Really extraordinary to be thrust into what she's been thrust into. And this week she reached a breaking point. Having been at the dinner on Saturday and left, understandably so. Having once again faced the criticism of a woman who used to work with her organization, her husband, Candace Owen, she decided to speak out this week on Charlie's podcast. And. And it's extraordinary. You should go listen to the whole thing. But I want to play for you some incredibly important words that any. Any person who believes in peace, love and understanding. Any person who believes in extending the presumption of grace to all. Any person in the country who wants to solve the divisions, heal the divisions, not eliminate politics from politics, not end political debate, not end strong disagreements. But anyone who wants to heal this country needs to heed the words and listen to the words of Erica Kirk. This is Erica Kirk. Part of what she said on the podcast earlier this week. Roll S1, please.
- [14:34]
Erica Kirk
This culture we're living in absorbs disagreement as a form of personal betrayal. It turns having an opposing viewpoint into a moral crime worthy of punishment. And here's what I've realized through all of this. Truly having lived through quite literal hell these past seven months. If you strip someone of their humanity long enough, you will arrive at the chilling conclusion that they don't deserve to exist at all. Every morning I wake up to a new headline lying about me. I have comedians dressing up in whiteface. I have people saying I'm not fit to be CEO. And I have Candace Owens claiming I murdered my husband. And the list goes on and on and on. There is a serious epidemic of dehumanization plaguing this country.
- [15:42]
Mark Halperin
Please go listen to the whole thing. Okay? If you strip someone of their humanity long enough, you will arrive at the chilling conclusion that they don't deserve to exist at all. I still know people on the left who look at Charlie as a two dimensional figure of evil. I still know people on the right who feel that way about leaders of the Democratic Party. In Erica Kirk's words, which I've shared with so many in the last day, you hear the roots of a solution. And that's why the White House Correspondents association dinner, which is so often derided as a bunch of elites getting together, is and has been in my view, so important to let people who don't normally spend time together, not just the press with sources, but people in both parties, to try to create three dimensional understanding, three dimensional impressions, to let people feel that they're not stripped of their humanity. Erica has gone through this more than as much as anybody else. But everyone in public life deals with it. Everyone in public life deals with being cart made into a cartoon of evil by the people in the other tribe. Happens to people in the press too, on occasion. But my goal is to tell you that I've talked to so many people who I've shared the words with who say, she's absolutely right. What an important thing to say. Now it's time for everybody to do it. Now it's time to not make money off of demonizing other people. Now it's time to disagree about policy, to disagree about practice, to disagree about all sorts of things. Healthy, vital, will happen, should happen. But it's also time to try to stop stripping people of their humanity, to get people to see in other people that their sons and daughters and parents, spouses, and part of the conversation. There are people in our public national town square who will never do that because that's how they make their living, by dehumanizing others, by criticizing others. Got to get away from that. I'm so. I'm so grateful to Erica Kirk for saying what she did. I don't want this to sound condescending, but I'm proud of her. Tough thing to say, Tough things to stand up to. And now we all just need to live it all. Just need to live what she said. All right, that's my reported monologue for this week. Grateful to you. Would love to hear what you think. Send me an email, let me know what you think about what I said about trying to change our political culture. Let me know what you think about the intractability of the Iranians and the difficulty of getting them to change their behavior. That's the common thread of these two things. Got to get the Iranians to change their behavior and have to get Americans to change their behavior, particularly people who have access to microphones like I do. Send me an email nextup halpern gmail.com nextup halperinmail.com we'll put them in the mailbag and make sure you subscribe to the program. NextUp is available as a podcast video podcast on YouTube. Go to our YouTube channel and subscribe to. Make sure you see all the full episodes and our exclusive bonus content that's YouTube.com@nextup. Halpern program is also available as a podcast. We've got clips on on X on on Instagram, so follow us there too. But for the full episodes go to Tom Whether you like it on Apple or Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast, make sure the downloads are turned on so you get every episode. And you'll know right when they drop on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but bonus content as well. All right. Thank you for being nexters. Thank you for listening in a moment after a quick break. When we come back, we'll be joined by the great Katie Pavlich host the Katie Pavlich Tonight program on News Nation. Katie Pavlich is next up. Are you being lied to? They tell you to defer paying your taxes by saving in a 401k or an IRA because then you'll retire in a lower tax bracket. But if that were true, why are so many retirees in the highest tax bracket of their lives? It's time to get the truth and discover a better way to grow and protect your money. Bank on yourself is the proven retirement plan alternative to that banks and Wall street desperately hope that you never hear about. It gives you guaranteed predictable growth that doesn't go backward when the markets drop. It can provide tax free retirement income under current tax law, putting you in control of your future tax rate. You also have control of your money. Access it when you need it with no government penalties or restrictions and your money keeps growing even when you use it. Right now you can get a free report that reveals how you can bank on yourself and enjoy tax free retirement income, guaranteed growth and control of your money. To get it, just go to bankonyourself.com? and you'll get a free report. Again, that's bankonyourself.com. go right now to bankonyourself.com. all right, next up and joining me now, Katie Pavlich, host of Katie Pavlage Tonight airs on News Nation every weeknight at 10pm Eastern time. And if you haven't watched it yet, you should check it out because Katie is doing very high quality, interesting program and it's hard to do every day, as some people who have daily shows know. Katie, thank you for being here.
- [21:06]
Katie Pavlich
Mark, great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
- [21:08]
Mark Halperin
There's about 101 topics I want to talk to you about.
- [21:11]
Katie Pavlich
So we'll see how many, where should we start?
- [21:12]
Mark Halperin
See how many we can do in the allotted time. I want to start with something you said on your show on Monday night that echoes what Erica Kirk said yesterday. Understandably, you'd like your friends to stop being shot at and killed and you'd like to live in a country where, where there's less violence. Erica's point, we need to stop dehumanizing people is a great one. And it's something I think super important. But it's hard to do when so many people make money off of dehumanization. So if you were, if you were Queen of America and wanted to solve it, what, what, what are ways we can solve it? Because, because attacking the left, I think just, just as a reality makes it more likely that it will continue.
- [21:53]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah. First of all, I love the title Queen of America even though we don't have monarchy. But I appreciate that it's available. It is available. I think there may be some others in mind first, but I appreciate that I've actually been thinking a lot about this, especially in the last few days, but generally the last two years since the assassination attempt of President Trump when he was actually shot in Butler, Pennsylvania, you know, of course, assassination attempts are not new. President Ronald Reagan was shot outside the same hotel that the attempt happened over the weekend, the White House Correspondents association dinner. We've had presidents who were killed as a result of assassinations. And politics is a contact sport. Right. It's, you know, we use language that is, that may be considered, quote, violent, like using the terms fight or take your country back or that kind of thing. And so in words are not violence. So how do we, where is the line between incitement and politics and being passionate about your point of view and the policies that you want to put forward on behalf of the American people if you're running for office, the policies that you think you want to pursue in office that are better for your constituents than your opponent, whether you're Republican or a Democrat, as we know, covering campaigns over the years, you know, negative campaign ads are the ones that typically work in the news business. If it doesn't doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead kind of thing. People are interested in that kind of story. And so it is on. I think the people who consume news and consume entertainment and consume information, I think everybody has to think like, okay, what part am I playing in this? Am I playing a healthy role in promoting this kind of material or content, whatever you want to call it. But at the same time, politics is, again, a contact sport. Power is something that is difficult to obtain, and once people get it, they want to keep it. And it's not, you know, we're not in an era of kind debate back and forth, and I'm not sure we actually ever have been. I mean, we went through a civil war. There was a caning on the House of the U.S. representatives on Capitol Hill. It's not that we haven't had this kind of tension before, but it does seem like it's been heightened over the last three years. And I think the difference is the justification of it. It used to seem like, at least. So maybe I'm being naive or I don't remember this properly, but that when these things would occur, it was a condemnation across the board of this kind of violent behavior. And I'm talking about the assassination attempts against the president, of course, the murder of Charlie Kirk. But we're in this environment now with the Internet and social media and as you said, people making lots of money off of conspiracy theories, putting information out before verifying any of it. Basically, I believe that we should go back to having diaries because people just say things on the Internet when really they should be fleshed out in a private way and thought about logically, maybe before we put it out in the universe as fact. And so we're in this environment where that condemnation is not happening. And I think that's the difference. It's not that politics hasn't been difficult, that we don't fight on both sides of political aisle. That's not a contact sport with lots of things at stake and the future of the country at stake when it comes to presidential elections and power on Capitol Hill, the Senate, the House this year, for example. But I think the lack of unity around this is not okay, broadly speaking, is the difference here.
- [25:46]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, well said. These two next questions aren't meant to put you on the spot, but just to kind of tease out this issue of dehumanizing. You friends with any Republican members of Congress?
- [25:58]
Katie Pavlich
Many of them, yes, many.
- [25:59]
Mark Halperin
Are you friends with any Democratic members of Congress?
- [26:01]
Katie Pavlich
Not too many Democratic members of Congress, but I do have a Lot of Democratic friends in the media.
- [26:05]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [26:06]
Katie Pavlich
So they're not necessarily elected officials, but they are on. They would if they ran for office. They would probably be great leaders inside their party.
- [26:15]
Mark Halperin
Right. Shouldn't you, as someone who hosts. And again, this is true of almost everyone we know, so I'm just teasing it out with you. Shouldn't you be friends with some Democratic members of Congress, given the job you have, given that you're friends with lots of Republican.
- [26:26]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah, I don't think. I mean, I don't think that I've necessarily had the opportunity for that. You know, I've been deeply embedded in the conservative movement for 15, 16 years. And so in my work has not necessarily been to be friends with members of Congress. It's been to be in the media and to talk with members of Congress, people who are in power. I don't have a lot of friends on Capitol Hill who are Republican representatives. I have friends in the media and people I work, but I don't have cozy relationships necessarily with the people that I cover, whether they're Democrats or Republicans. But I do have friends, both in my personal life and in work, who are Democrats, who are on the far left and maybe what you would call a more moderate Democrat. So. And I think, too, that there is what I liked about what Erica Kirk said earlier this week, too, in Washington is that she was describing this interaction she had with the Daily Mail reporter and the Daily Mail reporter coming up to her and giving her compliments and telling her she looked beautiful. And it was great that we could all come together on a night and not be at each other's throats, and then we'll go back at it tomorrow. And for me, that I feel like, I think Erica does in the sense that it's very fake and not real. And the idea that the reporter thought that Erica would be in agreement about that, that. Oh, yeah, because she said it was. Isn't it a wonderful thing or something like that. Paraphrasing. And Erica's response is no, it seems really fake to me. And that's how I feel a lot about what happens in Washington. I think a lot of it's very disingenuous. You know, things that happen behind the scenes don't happen necessarily in front of the camera, and people go along to get along for the sake of whatever thing they need done that day. But. So I don't know if it answers your question, but it does. I mean, I think there needs to be a little more authenticity. And, you know, if you're going to Be friends with someone, be real friends with them, but don't pretend that you have all these differences, but you get along if you're really not doing that behind the scenes or in front of the camera.
- [28:26]
Mark Halperin
Right. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. As you did. I invoked the Civil War and the caning on the floor all the time because people should be realistic about. You can't take politics out of politics and people are going to feel intensely. But to me, the solution is found in the thing Erica said about, you know, not being three dimensional figures and being dehumanized. I know full well that you've got friends like from the five and elsewhere who are Democrats, who, if their parent died, you'd send them a note, you'd be concerned about them. There just needs to be more of that. And that's why I've always been a fan of the correspondence dinner, because it does not just give reporters chance to be with people in both parties, but it gives people in both parties a chance to be in a room. It's rare that that happens. And, and, and I agree with you about the fakery 100%. Although that's true. That's true. You know, it.
- [29:17]
Katie Pavlich
Human nature, I guess.
- [29:18]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, human nature, exactly. But, but I do, I do, I do wish we could all dedicate ourselves to listening to what Erica said and the impulse of almost everybody I know, even a lot of people who make money off of dehumanizing the other tribe, which is everybody would like this lowered, not just because it's a better example for kids and, and a more human way to live. But, but we have to stop people from taking guns and trying to kill people. Have to try to do that because we're gonna, we're gonna get people who don't want to be in the media and people who don't want to run for elective office or appointed office because, because it's too dangerous.
- [29:54]
Katie Pavlich
Well, and the, the entire experiment of America starts to fail if we are going to start killing political opponents. And they have killed political opponents. They murdered the leftists. Murdered. I don't say they. A leftist murdered Charlie Kirk. And many people celebrated that. Many people have been celebrating the attempted assassination of President Trump, not just on the dark corners of the Internet, but very much publicly in our society. But I think you're totally right about the humanization aspect of it and this standard of decency that we should have. Like you said, if someone were to have a family emergency or someone were to a family member were hurt or passed away or There was just some crisis that they had. You should just be a human being and reach out and say, I'm so sorry. You know, write a card, let them know that you care. Because we all go through those things in life, whether we're Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals. Those are difficult things that human beings have to go through. So if we can maybe unify, not around politics, I think that's a pipe dream. And I think it's delusional to think we're going to be unified around politics, but to be unified around treating each other with decency at the times where it really matters. And in the aftermath of Charlie being murdered, it has really mattered. And unfortunately, many, many people have done the opposite of decency. And you know what? They'll have to live with themselves. Can't control what they're going to do. And I think people can see exactly what's happening with that.
- [31:23]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Every time I wade into this, I court people, literally. I'll say one sentence and the left will say, oh, you're false equivalency. You're favoring the right. And the right will say the same thing. There's what you said, the left's nonchalance about attempts to murder the president, Charlie Kirk's assassination, it's horrifying. And it's a source of great grievance, understandably, on the right.
- [31:50]
Katie Pavlich
A double standard, too.
- [31:52]
Mark Halperin
I mean, double standard in the press. If three people tried to kill Barack
- [31:56]
Katie Pavlich
Obama, we would never hear the end. It would cover, be wall to wall. There'd be nothing else happening in the world for 100. For weeks on end.
- [32:03]
Mark Halperin
100. And, and, and, and every Republican would be asked, do you associate yourself? You know, this guy followed you on Twitter. How do you feel about that? I don't. I, I don't. I haven't heard Democrats asked this week about the, the ideology of the alleged shooter. So you and I agree on that. But here's, but here's I, I talk about January 6th as a counter all the time when Paul Pelosi was attacked from the president on down. I heard so many Republicans mock it, fan conspiracy theories about it. No, no expression of, of extreme concern for Speaker Pelosi. And, and again, I just ask everybody, consider the grievances on the other side and how the left feels about that. A guy's attacked in his own home.
- [32:45]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Mark Halperin
Regardless of the, regardless of the ideology or motivations of the person who broke into their house. That to me, was for the left and for me a big watershed to say, come on now, this elder, relatively older gentleman attacked in his home violently.
- [33:00]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah, right.
- [33:01]
Mark Halperin
And, and, and the President mocked it.
- [33:03]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah, he shouldn't have, he shouldn't have done that. And people who followed that lead shouldn't have done that. I at the time said it was outrageous and disgusting and was frustrated with the fact that the, the husband of the former speaker of the House. Did this happen while she was still speaker of the House? I can remember the timing on that.
- [33:19]
Mark Halperin
She was former speaker, but I mean,
- [33:22]
Katie Pavlich
regardless, she was in a high profile position and the fact that security did not prevent this person from coming into their home and beating her husband with a hammer was outrageous to me. I thought that was just absolutely unacceptable and it's lucky that he wasn't killed. So. Yeah, I don't think that when people are injured or attacked that it should be celebrated in any kind of way at all. And as for January 6, there were people who were over prosecuted for the crimes that occurred that day. The entire Justice Department literally was taken away from even child sex trafficking cases to make sure that every person who even came within 100ft of the Capitol suffered a consequence. And so because there was an overreaction and not a case by case basis. And a lot of what happened with that, a lot of that was, was dismissed because the system was abused to make a political point. Right. So the pendulum swaying too far the other way when it really just seemed to hold people accountable who got violent on January 6th. And there were certainly were far too many of them. But in terms of also the standard here, you know, and Bhatia Angar Sagan has done a lot of work on this this week and the Washington examiner has been working on this for months and months. Again, you know, a lot of the way that we calculate how this violence falls on the political spectrum and I don't want to. It's not like a them versus I guess it is, but I don't like the well, this happened so tit for tat. But you do have to have an accurate accounting of what is going on. And the idea that the, the most violent, most expensive riots American history during the BLM riots in the summer of 2020 are not counted as leftist violence, as the fact that the Charlie Kirk murder is not counted as leftist violence is insane. There were dozens of people killed in the summer of 2020. And this idea that we are working off of a data set that is not accurate to solve this problem isn't going to get us there anywhere. And so January 6th was terrible. It was awful. It was one of the worst days, I had to be on the air. I did not enjoy it at all. But this idea that it was one of the worst things in history when you had the BLM riots just getting swept under the rug as if that was justified, it's outrageous. I mean, you can't, you have to have the same standard for all of these events. And that's not, that's not what we're working with here.
- [35:43]
Mark Halperin
I agree with 97% of what you said, and I won't quibble over the 3%. I'll just say I'm grateful to you for what you said and the way in which you said it. And I know that plenty of people on the left will listen to what you say and, and, and, and, and, and be troubled by it.
- [35:58]
Katie Pavlich
But, but I'm curious how it's a 3% now, though.
- [36:01]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [36:01]
Katie Pavlich
What is it?
- [36:01]
Mark Halperin
I'll send you an annotation. I keep saying to, I keep saying to my friends on the left, I've said this for decades. You have to understand that it's two on one. The, the main, the dominant media is, is going to side with the Democrats and, and whether it's the riots, whether it's the coverage of Joe Biden's mental decline, whether it's accountability over Russiagate, like, these are, these are not small things. These are not. Well, some. Sometimes one side gets the break and sometimes the other does. It's, it's all on one side. So, so when you're playing two on one on the left, you just have to understand the grievance that people on the right feel, and you have to factor that in. And people have to, on the right have to understand there are some grievances the other way as well. And, and everybody, if we're going to, if we're going to stop dehumanizing, everybody needs to understand that. All right, we got to get some other topics. You've been in media for a long time and you understood what you were getting into, you thought, when you accepted doing a nightly show at 10 o'. Clock. Yeah, just talk, talk about the adjustments you've had to make to be live in front of a camera every night at 10 o', clock, five days a week, as compared to what you used to do. Just talk about how that's been an adjustment for you.
- [37:05]
Katie Pavlich
Well, I, first of all, it's an honor to be in Washington, D.C. covering the golden age of America, the Trump administration. I always joke about how being in D.C. is like dog years. One feels like seven. I'm sure you know, I'm sure you know that. Well, there's so much happen every single day. So to have the opportunity, I always say that this job is like a front row to heat seat to history. Whether that's good or bad. Most of the time it's bad or good, rather not bad. And so that, that for me is an enormous privilege to do that every night from our nation's capital, which is the capital for all Americans. And people come here from all over the world. I see them, and they are just, you know, in awe of our city and our country and the freedoms that we have. So to be able to do a nightly show with the people who are here making big decisions about the lives of Americans all over the country is an enormous privilege. And it's also amazing to tell stories that are happening inside Washington that affect Americans outside of the Beltway. You know, we interviewed the President the second day of the show, and I asked him about American hostage Dennis Coyle, who was being held hostage by the Taliban for more than a year, and he said he would look into it. And a month later, Dennis Coyle was home, back in America, released from the Taliban. So being able to be engaged in these kinds of stories and try to make a difference just by bringing them to light is an enormous privilege at a time when there's a lot, a lot happening. And as you said, I've been in D.C. for quite a while now covering the news, but it's just an amazing time to be here and to watch American history unfold every day right before our eyes and choose the stories that we're covering and figure out what's important, what's not important, what is the rest of the media covering that maybe we should take a different angle on. So it's really creative, different process every day. And I have an amazing team. News Nation has been incredible, so I'm still getting used to it. We're only three months in, but I think we're getting our groove.
- [39:03]
Mark Halperin
So have you taken any days off since you started?
- [39:06]
Katie Pavlich
Not any days off. Nope, not yet. So, yeah.
- [39:09]
Mark Halperin
All right.
- [39:10]
Katie Pavlich
All right.
- [39:10]
Mark Halperin
Well, you gave a very. A very boosterish upbeat answer that being tied to a camera every night at 10 and I'll just. I won't follow, but. But I know how hard it is and you doing consistently great work every night is a real challenge and you're pulling it off so far. So congratulations so far.
- [39:28]
Katie Pavlich
There's always tomorrow to not to. We're going to keep doing a good job. So every day is different. It's a lot of fun.
- [39:34]
Mark Halperin
So, yeah. Do you aspire in the election year to take the show on the road? Is that something you plan to do?
- [39:39]
Katie Pavlich
I would like to, yes, I'd like to take the show on the road. If we can get out and talk to Americans about what they're interested in, what they're concerned about, I think that's really important for media to have their ear to the ground. Nextar, of course, owns News Nation. They have a number of local affiliates too. So looking forward to using some local reporters who can help us, you know, talk about what's happening in a certain place that affects the whole country. And of course, the swing districts that we're looking at, swing states, there's a lot of governor's races that are happening this year as well. So, yeah, we hopefully have the opportunity to do something like that.
- [40:12]
Mark Halperin
All right, quick round of a rapid fire roulette here. Who's the most underrated member of the Trump Cabinet?
- [40:21]
Katie Pavlich
Kelly Loeffler.
- [40:22]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Who's the funniest member of the Trump Cabinet?
- [40:25]
Katie Pavlich
Marco Rubio.
- [40:27]
Mark Halperin
Consensus answer. Everybody. Everybody says the same thing. Mr. Comedy. Yeah, Mr.
- [40:31]
Katie Pavlich
Comedy.
- [40:32]
Mark Halperin
Who's the member of the Trump Cabinet you'd most like to spend two weeks in London with?
- [40:37]
Katie Pavlich
In London? Yeah, in London. Scott Bessant. Because he has very good taste.
- [40:44]
Mark Halperin
Very good taste. And he's friends with the King, so you'd probably, probably get some pretty good tour restaurant reservations. What's the president's most underrated positive trait?
- [40:56]
Katie Pavlich
That he has great taste in music.
- [40:58]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Who's, who's the three most likely Republican presidential nominees in 2028?
- [41:07]
Katie Pavlich
Sarah Huckabee, Sanders Vance, Katie Vance and Marco Rubia.
- [41:13]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Do you think Sarah will run for president someday for sure?
- [41:17]
Katie Pavlich
I think so, eventually. I'm not sure if it'll be this round, but I think it'd be a shame if she didn't give it a shot.
- [41:24]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, her dad ran a pretty good, had a pretty good time running for president.
- [41:28]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah, he did. He did. Now he's the ambassador to Israel. So, yeah, she's, she just has, she's been very good at every job she's had and Arkansas is a really good example of a state that's been able to bring in new jobs. And you know, she, she's likable as well and she has the name recognition from coming from political dynasty, family.
- [41:47]
Mark Halperin
So we had a nice visit with her on this program talking about her record in Arkansas. Lastly, 10:00 Eastern Time, you got a bunch of news options. You Got a bunch of sports options, entertainment news, Netflix. Why should people tune in at 10 for you?
- [42:03]
Katie Pavlich
Well, we are covering stories from angles that you won't see anywhere else and we think that it's worth your time. So I know that time is everybody's most valuable resource and we do not take for granted when people spend it with us. It's something they can't get back. But just give us a shot and we're always open to new recommendations. And the last three months have been a lot of breaking news. So we're on top of the news and also bringing you interesting stories every single night that you're not going to see anywhere else.
- [42:27]
Mark Halperin
All right, again, if you haven't checked Katie out yet, you should. She and her colleagues are doing a very conscientious, interesting and invasive job at programming the 10 o' clock hour on News Nation every night, 10 Eastern Time. Katie, thank you for being here.
- [42:41]
Katie Pavlich
Thanks so much for having me. Great to see you. Thank you.
- [42:44]
Mark Halperin
Okay, when we come back, my conversation with another person on television. NBC's Morgan Radford is next up. Did you know that high blood pressure is the number one risk factor for mortality? One in two adults has it. So that means there's a 5050 chance. You are a walking time bomb. But here's some good news. You can take control of your blood pressure naturally without relying on Big Pharma. 120 Life is a blend of great tasting super fruit juices that have been shown to help lower blood pressure. It's backed by hundreds of doctors and trusted by thousands of people who've seen measurable results. And here's the best part. It's completely risk free. Try 120 Life for two weeks and if you don't see a difference in your numbers, you get your money back. Go to 120Life.com that's 120Life.com and use the code NextUp to save 20% and get free shipping. Pretty good deal. This is serious. This is your life we're talking about. 120 Life Can Help to Covis is
- [43:45]
Commercial Announcer 1
the go to for premium handcrafted western boots. Stop by any store location for a warm welcome, a cold drink in hand and a truly one of a kind shopping experience. Let our friendly staff help you find your new go to boots. Whether your first pair or your 50th. Finish things off with a complimentary boot brand to make them extra special. Come for the boots, stay for the good times. To Covis Forever West
- [44:14]
Commercial Announcer 2
Mother's Day has a way of sneaking up on you. But when it does, 1-800-FLowers makes it easy to send mom something beautiful, thoughtful, and worthy of everything she does. Right now with double blooms from 1-800-Flowers, order one dozen roses and get another dozen for free. It's a bigger gesture with fresh, beautiful flowers arranged to make Mother's Day feel as special as she is. Make Mother's Day feel bigger with double blooms at 1-800-flowers.com sxm. That's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm.
- [44:48]
Mark Halperin
All right, next up and joining me now, a new book, a new baby, and a new way of doing news. Morgan Radford is here. Her debut novel, now Then, comes out on May 5th. And maybe you can tell from the shot, but new babies coming out.
- [45:01]
Morgan Radford
New baby's coming just a little bit after 26.
- [45:03]
Mark Halperin
26. So I could interrupt the book tour. Congratulations on book and baby. My rule for book titles is it has to be at least double entendre. Now Then is a brilliant title.
- [45:15]
Morgan Radford
Thank you.
- [45:15]
Mark Halperin
Explain to people what the title of Now Then, your debut novel is about.
- [45:19]
Morgan Radford
Great question. The book is about a black Cuban girl from the mountains of North Carolina who goes to Harvard and falls in love with a British Indian. And he would always say to her in the beginning of every conversation, now then. And he said this because, like a verbal tic. Well, or he would say a greeting. Yeah, okay, but I, you know, and this part was based on elements of my real life. And I remember asking him, like, why do you do that every text, every, you know, beginning of every conversation? He said, well, it's a way of beginning and ending a conversation without ever beginning or ending it. It's just a continuous conversation with someone. You don't want to end the conversation.
- [46:00]
Mark Halperin
Just picking right back up.
- [46:01]
Morgan Radford
You're picking right back up. So now then. And that is now the title of the book.
- [46:04]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. But it also has the sense of now and then and then.
- [46:08]
Morgan Radford
And the other half is told from the perspective of her mother, who fled the Cuban Revolution. And it's built it's in 1957, so before the revolution sort of hit its apex in 1959. And looking at why a young university student would have been even attracted to the Cuban revolution and the ideals then. My father's side emigrated here from Jamaica and Cuba. And so it was really interesting for me to go back and do the research. I know we were talking about that with you and your family and, you know, doing the research to learn, like, what that experience was like coming to this country. Why? What were the motivations and so being able to sort of marry that to the history of this sort of pre revolution time was really just a fun place for me to nerd out.
- [46:55]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. So you've written a nonfiction book, but it's your first novel, right?
- [46:58]
Morgan Radford
I've never written nonfiction. This is my first.
- [47:00]
Mark Halperin
This is your first book overall, period. Oh, I thought you'd written a book.
- [47:03]
Morgan Radford
Well, and that's the thing. Like, I went in meeting with the book agent about a nonfiction book, because a lot of what I do at work is covering sort of politics and culture and things like that. And I feel like that's what's expected of us. Like, you know, we're journalists. We talk to people every day.
- [47:17]
Mark Halperin
Right. History.
- [47:17]
Morgan Radford
History. Right. And the context. Right. But I think fiction, when I finished talking to her, she said, you know, if you ever did fiction, that would be, like, really hot. And I had this one experience with this guy from college, and I said, if I ever wrote any sort of script, any sort of drama, this would be it. And when I told her the real life story behind now, then she was like, that's it. And fiction has been the most fun escape, Mark, from the hard news that we do every day, from the interviews that we do, from the. The topics we cover. It is just this way to go home and give shape to everything that's happening.
- [47:57]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. I should say, for those of you who don't know, Morgan, as she's alluded to, is a great journalist. She anchors NBC News Daily 12 to 2. I want to talk about news, but I want to stay with the book for a minute. Why write? Why write a book? You've got plenty to do, including one baby, another a baby on the way.
- [48:13]
Morgan Radford
So what's your motivation on the side? Yeah, yeah. You know, it was one of those things I couldn't not do once the idea struck, once I had the conversation with the agent, and it was like, oh, this is really. Someone would really pay me for this work and this idea and this. I just sat down and I. It surprised me. I mean, it was. It was more of a return to my love of creative writing. Like, I would enter Borders Bookstore, you know, creative writing challenges in Greensboro, North Carolina, where I grew up. And. And so this was more of a return to a first love. But once I sat down and the words started to flow, Mark, I couldn't imagine stopping.
- [48:48]
Mark Halperin
What genre of fiction would you say it is?
- [48:51]
Morgan Radford
I would say this is like family drama, romance, but somewhere on the border between literary and commercial.
- [49:02]
Mark Halperin
All right, who will play the main characters when you Sell them.
- [49:04]
Morgan Radford
Oh, my gosh. Zoe Saldania will be the mom. I want Zendaya to learn some Spanish and play the daughter. I want Riz Ahmed or Dev Patrick to play love interest. Have I. Oh, casual, casual question.
- [49:15]
Mark Halperin
Is Dev Patel the right age to play love interest?
- [49:17]
Morgan Radford
You know, I was asked that I
- [49:18]
Mark Halperin
think you can make.
- [49:19]
Morgan Radford
I think you can just make them look young. You know, I feel like, you know, it's.
- [49:23]
Katie Pavlich
It's.
- [49:23]
Mark Halperin
We got AI and what's the. In the movie version? What's the big scene? What's like, the biggest scene in the movie?
- [49:28]
Morgan Radford
The big scene is when Marisol is captured in Cuba and she is held captive in 1957.
- [49:35]
Mark Halperin
By whom?
- [49:37]
Morgan Radford
By. Well, it's complicated. This is now the transition between Batista and Fide. Castro and Batista's men have captured her at this time.
- [49:48]
Mark Halperin
And is that based on a real thing?
- [49:50]
Morgan Radford
It's not based on my real family story, but it is based on a real character named Jose Antorecheviria. He was a young revolutionary kid at the University of Havana. He had studied architecture. But what was interesting, Mark, was that when I was doing the research, I think the Cuban history narrative, for a lot of people who, you know, may have dabbled in it or aren't as deeply familiar with it, is that, you know, Fidel Castro came to power, won the hearts of the people, and then, boom, he's a dictator forever and ever. Not the case. Like, when he was starting, there were all these factions that were essentially competing for that very job that he wanted. And Jose Antonio was kind of one of them. Like, he didn't totally get along with Castro, but he knew he had to get along to go along. Like, they met in Mexico when Castro was exiled and were just trying. They were all against Batista, right? They were all against this original regime that they said, look, he's too in pocket with the Americans, et cetera, et cetera. We want a Cuba for ourselves. And everyone had these different visions of how they were going to do that. And so getting to explore that side. I use Jose Antorecheveria as my main love interest and character.
- [50:55]
Mark Halperin
And is the exciting part the actual capture or the captivity?
- [50:58]
Morgan Radford
The captivity. Yeah, the captivity and what happens and how you process it. And then maybe if you read the book, when she leaves captivity, how she
- [51:06]
Mark Halperin
processes it, my big author question always is, explain people why they should buy it, who should buy it and why should they buy it?
- [51:12]
Morgan Radford
If you have any interest in sort of the lyrical dynamics of family, of
- [51:19]
Mark Halperin
belonging and who doesn't?
- [51:21]
Morgan Radford
Well, yeah, well, you know, it's funny, I was thinking about it in terms of this notion of like belonging and what it means to be American, which I think in this moment in this country, we're having lots of conversations around. We're having conversations about what it means to be American, what the purpose of elite universities and what they do and who belongs there on those campuses. And I think this is a way to explore what that belonging to looks like, what it feels like, what unbelonging looks like and feels like when we're told we don't belong in those spaces. And I think people who are interested in like, you know, mother daughter relationships and any interest in Cuba or Cuban history, this is for them.
- [51:59]
Mark Halperin
Okay, awesome. Let's talk babies. What? You've got one three year old, another about to have. Congratulations. Thank you. What have you learned about being a mom that you didn't know before that?
- [52:10]
Morgan Radford
It's the kids world, man. We're just living in it. I am following her lead in every way. We, for example, we speak Spanish at home. I send her to a French school during the day. I don't think so.
- [52:21]
Mark Halperin
Where they speak French.
- [52:22]
Morgan Radford
Where they speak French.
- [52:23]
Mark Halperin
So confusing.
- [52:24]
Morgan Radford
Yeah, well, you know, I think kids can do a lot of things.
- [52:26]
Mark Halperin
Thank goodness for cognates, you know?
- [52:28]
Morgan Radford
Exactly. Right. She's like. Well, not quite. Because I'm like, manger, comer, eat. She, she. I don't think she likes the French. I don't think she's into it. And so I'm like, oh, my husband's like, are we. We gotta stop. She's not into it. She, she's, she's not loving it. And you learn and you pivot and you change.
- [52:44]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Is tell me how she's most your daughter and how she's least your daughter.
- [52:48]
Morgan Radford
Ooh, that's a great question. Most my daughter. And that. She's incredibly mischievous. She has a visible twinkle in her eye. She just has something inside of her that cannot and won't be tamed. And I absolutely love it. It's just fire. It's just pure fire in her eyes. And I think that's something that as we get older, the world kind of tries to squelch it out. Yeah, it does, I think, especially for women. Like, I think, you know.
- [53:14]
Mark Halperin
Oh, no, they try to squelch us.
- [53:15]
Morgan Radford
Yeah. Well, do they get you too?
- [53:17]
Katie Pavlich
They get.
- [53:17]
Morgan Radford
The guys come right after us.
- [53:18]
Mark Halperin
They get the good guys don't have joy. No joy.
- [53:20]
Morgan Radford
Yeah, no joy in the eye. No sparkle.
- [53:22]
Mark Halperin
All right. How she leased your daughter.
- [53:23]
Morgan Radford
How has she Leased my daughter. I think she's a lot of me.
- [53:31]
Katie Pavlich
I think there's a lot of Morgan in there.
- [53:33]
Mark Halperin
And someone's already told you that two is more than twice as hard as one.
- [53:36]
Morgan Radford
That is what my dad said. He said it's harder by multiples. It's not twice as hard.
- [53:40]
Mark Halperin
Exactly.
- [53:41]
Morgan Radford
Why do they say that?
- [53:42]
Mark Halperin
It just. It just is. It's just like I only have one. I just know from other people, it's just chasing them around. It's like you can't chase in two directions at once. You know, it's not like chasing one and then the other. It's like you got to do them both. You'll be fine.
- [53:56]
Morgan Radford
I mean, gosh, you know what somebody told me I was at a dinner party, don't know this guy. Still don't know who he was. And all he said was. He said, how many kids do you want? I said, oh, I don't know yet. He said, the only advice, if you remember nothing else from me tonight, stop at 2. And I was like, jesus, what a thing to say. He said he had three kids. He said, but once you go past two, need passes around like a rash. He goes, either my wife's needs not met, my needs not met kid one's need. And I was like, I don't even know how I feel about you saying this when you have three kids, dude. But, like, I could not unheed.
- [54:29]
Mark Halperin
To me, it's simple biogen. You only have two arms.
- [54:31]
Katie Pavlich
Yeah.
- [54:31]
Mark Halperin
So once you get a third on
- [54:33]
Morgan Radford
the coverage is important.
- [54:34]
Mark Halperin
Once you have three kids, you're using a leg. Let's talk about journalism. What do you want to achieve in journalism before you retire? Don't have to be exhaustive list, but what are some things you know you want to do?
- [54:46]
Morgan Radford
I want to interview the head of state in Cuba.
- [54:50]
Mark Halperin
I want on that could be Marco Rubio.
- [54:53]
Morgan Radford
We don't know. We don't know at this point. I would have said Castro before he died. Diaz Canel, who is currently the president of Cuba, is interesting, but I think whoever comes next is gonna be a really interesting person. That is what I would love to do. I would also love to do a nonfiction piece of journalism. And I've been playing with what that looks like.
- [55:10]
Mark Halperin
You mean a book?
- [55:11]
Morgan Radford
A book? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a book. But obviously based in sort of interviews and interviews I've done over the past year. And I think that is trending toward politics and inclusion and who the political players are in a very rapidly changing political.
- [55:25]
Mark Halperin
How many times have you been To Cuba.
- [55:26]
Morgan Radford
Oh, golly. I went back first in college and directly enrolled in the University of Havana. So part of my college transcript is from there. I went back years later with my family personally, and then I went back again when Fidel Castro died to cover it for NBC News. And then I probably couldn't even tell you the number of times I've gone since then.
- [55:45]
Mark Halperin
Okay, what will it be like if President Trump does what he's hinting he's going to do? If Cuba is liberated, if it's a market economy, if it's got a great affiliation with the United States, is it going to be just a paradise? Is it going to be a flawed paradise? What's it going to be like, you think?
- [56:00]
Morgan Radford
I think that's the biggest question facing all of us. I think it will have elements of what we saw it could have been. I mean, during the Obama administration, when we saw sort of some of those relations open up, we saw Cuban entrepreneurs thrive for the first time. My wedding planner for my wedding, I, she has this incredible business in Cuba. And during the Obama administration, she said it was amazing because I had so many people who were coming here who were curious. I was able to actually charge fair market value instead of the things that I'm limited to charge here. She was so exceptional that I flew her to Colombia to support her business and her. And you hear those types of stories, people who have tayeres, like these little artists workshop. I mean, Cuba has so much natural resource in terms of, of talent and vision and the Cuban spirit, that I think we saw elements of what could come when the Internet was more easily accessible, when the Internet was high functioning. And so I think part of what President Trump is talking about is something that actually was already done, right? Elements of that ease and access in terms of the political regime change that opens up a whole new dynamic, a whole new frontier of what can happen if Cubans can speak freely, fully live freely, and have access to the economic resources that we saw begin during the Obama administration.
- [57:27]
Mark Halperin
Arts, tourism, agriculture, it seems like poised to thrive if given liberty, no?
- [57:33]
Morgan Radford
And the medical system, I mean, the medical system, like, look, I don't like going to the doctor in Cuba. I've had that experience. Like, I didn't love it. But personally, because you got the doctors are paid so little, they're driving coco taxis, like literally taxis in the form of coconut, where they make more money from tourism. So I think you have the resources there that if activated, could thrive in ways that we've never seen.
- [57:54]
Katie Pavlich
Right.
- [57:56]
Morgan Radford
And like the thing that I think Cubans naturally have on the island. That is so remarkable that I don't know that people are fully aware. They are so engaged and so politically active. Like, there is not one. I've never met anybody, Toavia and a still on the island who, you know, at dinner can't talk fluently about current. The state of current politics at home and abroad.
- [58:20]
Mark Halperin
Right.
- [58:20]
Morgan Radford
I mean, they're talking about my state senators here. Right. Like, very just on the money, on the nose, engaged, politically active. And there's an engagement and a vibrancy that's so palpable that I don't even see here at home to the same extent. Just if you were closing your eyes and spitting the tail of the donkey.
- [58:41]
Mark Halperin
Right. Let's talk journalism a little bit. You've had success appealing to an audience of younger people, which has been the holy grail of American journalism since I've been in journalism and probably before. What do young people want in news?
- [58:54]
Morgan Radford
Transparency. Easy. I mean, that's. I think this. I was talking to someone earlier today at another network, actually. We were talking about how the industry we entered is just even as younger people is not the industry we're in right now. It's just a different ball game. Like the days of having some elder anchor speak at you and deliver the news. I mean, just even that verb like deliver the news to you. That is, that's. That's. Those are bygone days. Right. Like, I think young people are craving interactive news. They're craving forums like this podcast. I mean, I know you do some things where you're sort of breaking that fourth wall and you're talking to people. Like, people are looking for interaction, but they also want to be able to shape some of what's covered. Like, they don't want people who are in a room in a city that they may or may not ever have been to, deciding what is important for them in their daily lives. And I think we're seeing that translate to voting. Right. Like you're seeing historically, we would talk about the economy and what the markets are doing. What does that mean right now? Now we're talking about buzzwords like affordability. What does that mean right now? So I think young people are looking for news that isn't delivered to them, but that is sort of crafted with them. And so, like, part of the thing that I do, for example, I use my social media in service of that transparency. When I travel to a story, I turn on my little Instagram stories. I show them. This is what my tracking mic does. This is how I set my levels. I'm stopping here because I need to pick up hair curlers before my 5am hit tomorrow morning. And just showing people how the sausage is made to build trust.
- [60:31]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, you've covered politics. What's working in American politics right now? What's working?
- [60:37]
Morgan Radford
Well, honestly, I would go back to what I was talking about with Cuba. I think engagement. I was thinking today how when we were talking about OPEC and we were talking about rising gas prices, and I don't know that I've ever seen an American populace this engaged in recent years in a meaningful way. Because what's different now is it's personal. I think there was prior to this administration and prior, even if you just looked at the last six years, I think there was this feeling of, like, them, not us. Yeah, right. Immigration is out there. The economy is this vague, like, amorphous notion. And now people are like, we're talking. People are naming the Strait of Hormuz. Like, I don't know that. A year ago, people were finding the Strait of Hormuz casually on a map. Like if, you know, at a diner. Right now we're talking about Iran. We are talking about, you know, Latin America. People are talking about Nicolas Maduro. Like, when were people just casually talking about what's happening? Who even knew the leader of Venezuela? When you were talking casually. And now I do think what's working is there is an urgency, and it's up to the viewer to decide where that urgency stems from. If that's fear, if that's excitement, if that's. That's up to them to decide. But I think that urgency and that proximity has created an engagement in our politics that we haven't seen recently.
- [62:08]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, there's all this discussion about whether the Democrats should or would nominate a woman for president in 2028. And you've had some people who would love to see a woman president say, bad idea. Do you think that's a fluid debate? Do you think that's a divisive debate? That's a good debate.
- [62:24]
Morgan Radford
I think that's an honest debate.
- [62:26]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [62:27]
Morgan Radford
I think we have to acknowledge that. Gender, race, socioeconomic class. I think all those things play whether we acknowledge them or not, whether we explicitly state them or not, they're part of who we are. It's like the whole, I don't see color that you don't see me sitting right here. I mean, come on. It's part of the. I am a woman. I'm nine months pregnant. These are facts of my life. And so I Don't think that taking that out of the debate is a necessarily honest thing. And now how you weigh it and the percentage of value you place on that, I think that's. That's a different conversation. But in and of itself, I think acknowledging the facts of our lives that make us who we are is not. That's not an odd place to start.
- [63:12]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Do you think that there's a woman present in the offing or it's just going to be a matter of fluke and luck and happenstance?
- [63:21]
Morgan Radford
No, I don't think fluke and luck. I don't think fluke and luck. Look at the candidates we've had. They've been. Fluke and luck didn't get them where they are. So, no, I think the day is upon us.
- [63:32]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And some people have said for years it would be a Republican or more likely. Is that true or not?
- [63:37]
Morgan Radford
You know, that's so interesting to me. You know, when I think of Liz Cheney, when I think of other people who were really strong Republican female leaders, I think you could see it in either, really. When I think about the history of talented, qualified candidates that we've had and the way we've seen younger candidates coming in. What we saw in the last midterms. Right. Was so interesting, seeing the diversity of candidates. Diversity. People who even just chose to throw their name in the hat.
- [64:09]
Katie Pavlich
Right.
- [64:09]
Morgan Radford
Not even the ones who necessarily won. And so I think it's almost an inevitability.
- [64:13]
Mark Halperin
Right. I find reporting, sometimes you gotta go out of the studio. You got to go cover stuff. Baby and anchor desk. How do you balance those two things with going out and actually covering stuff?
- [64:24]
Morgan Radford
I love to go on the field. 2025, I would say was my second best year on record for field reporting with a baby with. With the anchor.
- [64:33]
Mark Halperin
Take the baby with you. Sometimes take the anchor desk with you.
- [64:36]
Morgan Radford
Got a lesson? Au pair.
- [64:37]
Mark Halperin
You do your show from the road.
- [64:38]
Morgan Radford
I used to do my show from the road even more, but now, I mean, I had. I have stories that, like Mark, just give me an itch that I can't not tell. For example, one of my most just intellectually interesting stories was the rise of religion among Gen Z and how it coalesced with the Trump MAGA base. And so I went to a big religious conference in Georgia and talked to one of the leaders there who was more prominent in sort of the conservative Christian space and masculinity conversation like this is happening to the point of what we were talking about before. You know, put your own value on it. Fine. My job is to show you what is already happening and the undercurrent that is swelling as we speak, and then we can talk about it. Y' all can talk about it, but my job is to take you to a place that you may not otherwise see and show you a movement that, statistically, we know is already underfoot. And so, like, that story. How the hell would you do that? Why would you do that from a studio? Like, I need to sit with you and talk like this. I need to be in Georgia. I want to know. I want to talk to the people who were there. You know? I did another story with a black militia group in Lincoln Heights, Ohio, that had decided to take up arms. They were like, the Second Amendment's for us too, after neo Nazi rally came to their town. And so I just think you have to, like, feel the texture of those stories in real time.
- [65:58]
Mark Halperin
And what happens when you tell the other people in your house you're headed at the door?
- [66:01]
Morgan Radford
What'd you say?
- [66:02]
Mark Halperin
What happens when you tell the other people who live in your house you're headed out the door?
- [66:05]
Morgan Radford
I have the best husband in the world.
- [66:06]
Mark Halperin
He's like, let me know when you're back.
- [66:08]
Morgan Radford
Yeah. He's like, this is your purpose. This is this. You. He. We also met in college, so he knew we didn't date in college because he was dating a good friend of mine. But plot twist.
- [66:18]
Mark Halperin
That sounds like the second novel.
- [66:19]
Morgan Radford
It sounds like it might be the first.
- [66:20]
Mark Halperin
Oh, is it?
- [66:21]
Morgan Radford
Yeah. But anyways, we woven in 12 years later.
- [66:26]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And the second baby be like Caroline Levitt. A couple weeks of maternity leave.
- [66:31]
Morgan Radford
I think Caroline's got me beat.
- [66:33]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [66:33]
Morgan Radford
I think she's gonna be quick return. She's gonna be before me. I think her chevance is gonna be. I think her due date's a little bit after me, But I'm like, who. Who goes? Who's coming back first? I don't know.
- [66:42]
Mark Halperin
Caroline. Quick turn.
- [66:43]
Morgan Radford
She's quick turn. She's gonna be quicker.
- [66:44]
Mark Halperin
She was on the first one. I don't know.
- [66:46]
Morgan Radford
For me, I feel like I love this work, and I'm really excited to, like, take a beat.
- [66:51]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [66:51]
Morgan Radford
You know, I feel like it's summertime.
- [66:53]
Mark Halperin
They don't know the gender of this baby. Do you have a secret preference?
- [66:57]
Morgan Radford
I don't have a secret preference. Here's the deal. I know my husband, and what he won't say is that he really wants a boy.
- [67:04]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [67:05]
Morgan Radford
And, like, actually, that's not even true. I feel like he would say that I Feel like if you asked him, he'll say that, which means he'll be thrilled. If this is a girl, it just means I have to have another kid. So I'm like. And, you know, all jokes aside, it's like, you know, I have such a unique relation with my daughter that if. If you also want that unique relationship with a son, like, how do I keep that from you? You know what I mean? Like, if this is what is part of your core happiness is somewhere in the mix.
- [67:30]
Mark Halperin
Having a son, I like all babies, but a lot of men would like to have a son.
- [67:35]
Morgan Radford
I think he wants us. I mean, it's like he's, you know, he's pretty honest about that. So I think, again, happy if this is a girl or boy, I just want a healthy kid, But I think that just means that'll determine how many children I probably.
- [67:46]
Mark Halperin
All right, let's finish. Let's sell some books. You, you were able to get morganradford.com that's pretty good. Did somebody else already have it?
- [67:53]
Morgan Radford
Did their research? My best friend got it for me.
- [67:54]
Mark Halperin
That's a very good gift.
- [67:55]
Morgan Radford
Yeah.
- [67:56]
Mark Halperin
So what's on morganradford.com history?
- [67:58]
Morgan Radford
My past reporting. We'll just see things like Cuba and my recent reporting, like we talked about in 2025. Places where you can buy the book for pre order and when it comes out. And my book tour, which is going to take me up and down the east coast since I can't go too, too far given my very close timing to this.
- [68:13]
Mark Halperin
Are you booked on Kimmel? It's on the east coast. You should do Kimmel if he's still on.
- [68:18]
Morgan Radford
Do you think I can get there?
- [68:19]
Mark Halperin
I think he can.
- [68:19]
Morgan Radford
Do you think the FCC will let me?
- [68:21]
Mark Halperin
Maybe they're doing Licensed controversial act. The book is called now then.
- [68:25]
Morgan Radford
Yes.
- [68:26]
Mark Halperin
Morgan's first book, first novel. And she already told you why you should buy it. So go buy it. Buy wherever you want. But if you want to buy it through morganradford.com youm probably make an extra 40 cents if they buy it that way.
- [68:35]
Morgan Radford
I don't think so. Mark. This is for the people, okay?
- [68:38]
Katie Pavlich
This is artful.
- [68:38]
Mark Halperin
This is for the people. And you can watch Morgan every day, Monday through Friday, all the days 12 to 2 on NBC News Daily. Morgan, thank you for being here.
- [68:46]
Morgan Radford
Thank you for having me.
- [68:47]
Mark Halperin
All right, quick break. And then next up, something else right after this.
- [68:50]
Morgan Radford
Something else.
- [68:51]
Katie Pavlich
I like that.
- [68:51]
Morgan Radford
That's a tease.
- [68:55]
Mark Halperin
So think about the last 30 bucks that you spent, maybe for a streaming subscription. You don't watch or a lunch you've already forgotten, that's $30. That's gone forever. Acre Gold lets you turn that lost money into physical 24 karat Swiss gold. You pick a plan, your balance builds and once you hit the price of a bar, they ship it straight to your front door. This is real gold in your hand at your house and over time, you're sitting on something that's been valuable since the dawn of civilization. And for the collectors out there, they just dropped the limited edition Hot Wheels collection. These are officially licensed by Mattel, strictly capped, and once they're gone, they're history. So while you're checking them out, claim your free entry to the Speed Club sweepstakes. They're giving away one gram Hot Wheels gold bar plus a massive grand prize, the 10 gram 24 karat Hot Wheels bar. Both come in official collector packaging and they're up for grabs right now. Start stacking for just $30 at getacregold.com mark again, that's getacregold.com mark go ahead and subscribe today to Covis is the
- [70:02]
Commercial Announcer 1
go to for premium handcrafted Western boots. Stop by any store location for a warm welcome, a cold drink in hand and a truly one of a kind shopping experience. Let our friendly staff help you find your new go to boots, whether your first pair or your 50th. Finish things off with a complimentary boot brand to make them extra special. Come for those boots. Stay for the good times. To Covis Forever west
- [70:31]
Mark Halperin
when Mother's Day means celebrating your mom, your wife, maybe even your daughter as a new mom. Trust 1-800-FLOWERS to help you celebrate every important woman in your life with double blooms from 1-800-Flowers. Order one dozen roses and get another dozen for free. It's a simple way to give beautifully with colorful blooms that make Mother's Day feel meaningful for every mom you're celebrating. Order with confidence and get double blooms at 1-800-Flowers.com sxm. That's 1-800-Flowers. Com sxm all right, next up, the Mailbag. We get so much great feedback from you all every day. We ask you to send us messages, what you think of the program and specific questions. And we love hearing from you. We love the Nexter Community week with a little interaction. So we're launching something new now to make sure we always get the best feedback in the feedback. So introducing our new segment, Mark the Mailman dedicated segment where I'm diving into the messages you all send in and responding to community in real time and look forward to hearing from more of you. Let's start with Dave. A very nice message from Dave. Dave says your two podcasts are absolutely the best out there. Thank you, Dave. My mom agrees. Are you curious what sets you apart? In my opinion, it is so refreshing to have a reasonable view that's not hype in one direction. I love how you and your guests, though you might disagree on some things, freely admit when the other is right. I love how you can interview someone without trying to drive into a point that they're cornered and have to fight back. Dave, love the feedback. Very grateful to you. And partly I love any praise, of course, whatsoever, but partly, Dave, why I love the message so much is that's exactly what we're trying to do here. I'm not a partisan. I'm an old fashioned journalist and we love for people to have an open mind, to listen to different points of view and to express it. And some people when they're interviewing are just worried about asking the next question. And I do my best to listen and to try to ask about things that interest me, I think hopefully interest the audience and if there are areas where I disagree. And again, to be open minded and to look for opportunities to say, you know what, you've convinced me I'm thinking anew about, about the topic. If that's why people like the show, I'm delighted because that's a big part of what I say my brand is about. But my ethos, what I try to do with next up is to create an opportunity for people to have fun, interesting, important conversations that, that involve being open minded. And even if you don't agree with the other person, you're open to their point of view, you're empathetic, you're willing to understand. So Dave, thanks for, thanks for being an extra. Thanks for the email and, and for the praise. All right, let's go on second one. This from Andrea. She lives in Napa in California. She says, I could not tell from your description of the security surrounding the dinner, talking about the White House Correspondents association dinner last Saturday, whether you were saying security was lax this year only or is it always this lax, did they drop the ball because it was Trump where security always been this way, even when Obama and Biden attended the dinner. Please clarify. Andrea, thank you for asking that. And I should have made that clear. So I appreciate the prompt to do it. Security was pretty much the way it's been in the last, over the last administrations. The perimeter for the security was too close in my view. And you have a lot of experts. I've talked to the ballroom. Too many civilians in the building, too easy for people to get on the property and move from floor to floor without any type of, of security. The reasons why, besides the fact that there was an incident that I think it was particularly striking this year, first of all, we've got a president who is been people tried to kill him before and, and so you just have to deal with the reality that Donald Trump needs a lot of security. Number two, we're in the middle of a war with the greatest state sponsor of terrorism, Iran. And so you had to being more on guard, I think than usual for that. Three, we're in an age of AI and you know, 3D printers and all this new technology. So being able to get on the hotel property, as we talked about on the episode, just involved having a, a packet that, that said Hilton on it that matched what that hotel gave out. It involved checking into the hotel if you were guests and it involved flashing a thing that said you were invited, not necessarily to the dinner, but to the parties. And so again, in the age in which we live, just security should have been tighter. But it's a good point which is to say previously in the previous presidencies security should have been tighter. And I've said this in the past, it just for the reasons I said was more in sharper relief this year that it should have been done. And, and it's still, we talked about it in the last episode. It's still not being all that discussed. I continue to hear people say what a great job the Secret Service did. The vice president said it this weekend. And I'm not denigrating this, the performance of the agents who were there. But, but someone should have spoken up in authority and said these, these mags are too close. If, if seven guys had stormed that one checkpoint, they, they could have been in the ballroom in a matter of steps, right down a flight of stairs and right into the ballroom. So security is expensive. It's a drag for people to go through it. But in this particular case, for all the reasons I said, Andrea, there should have been better security around that ballroom. Even though as your question suggests, in the past it should have been better as well. But, but, but this year in particular, a premium on it. All right, love hearing from you all. Nexters, send me your emails whenever. Next up, halpernmail.com send, send notes. We like notes of praise, but questions are great and critiques. The show is very, very good, but it's not perfect. So please keep sending emails for an opportunity to be featured in our next segment here. Our new segment, Mark the Mailman gathering your letters, opening them up and reading them. All right, that's it for today's program. Special thanks to our guests Katie Pavlich and Morgan Radford for being part of the show this week. I hope everybody has a wonderful weekend. We'll be back on a Tuesday brand new episode. As always, share the program with everybody in your life. Make sure everybody has the opportunity to be a nexter friends and family as you as well as you should be subscribing on YouTube as well as on the podcast platforms. We want all of you to always know what's coming. Next up. Lucky Land Casino where free welcome surprises greet you on signup and daily delights. Wait every return spin with gold coins or collect sweeped coins. There's magic every day. Join now. Your first surprise is ready. Lucky Land Casino where the magic happens. No purchase necessary VGW Group Void where prohibited by law. CT and Cs 21 plus real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect Hire skills first. Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes, let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage. Because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why@tearthepaperceiling.org brought to you by OpportunityAtWork and the Ad Council.