← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Trump Dominates the Narrative, Plus CBS vs. Bari Weiss, and Struggling Dems, with Meghan McCain and Ben Ferguson
01:09:31
Mark opens today’s episode with a reported monologue on why President Trump’s presidency continues to dominate headlines and shape America’s political mood. He breaks down the forces — in media, politics, and public opinion — that keep Trump at the center of every national conversation. Then Meghan McCain and Ben Ferguson join for a wide-ranging conversation on Trump’s foreign policy agenda, Bari Weiss’s effort to reform CBS News, and the Democratic Party’s ongoing struggles with leadership and messaging. The discussion cuts across politics and media, examining how power, influence, and credibility are being redefined in real time. Forward Mobile: Help protect the American vaping industry before it’s too late! Visit https://vaportechnology.org Home Title Lock: Go to https://hometitlelock.com/mark and use promo code MARK to get a FREE title history report and a FREE TRIAL of their Triple Lock Protection! For details visit https://hometitlelock.com/warranty Chapter: For free and...
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- [00:01]
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Ben Ferguson
Your unfinished home projects because you're not.
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Mark Halperin
Sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is.
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Ben Ferguson
With thumbtack, you don't have to be.
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Mark Halperin
A home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download Today. Welcome in Nexters Checking the sundial and the calendar suggests it's Tuesday and that means another chance for us to catch catch up together. Find out what's next up. I'm Mark Halperin, Editor in chief of the live interactive video platform two Way and the host of this program where we get together, we talk about what's in the news and where we think things are headed. Very grateful to being part of the program. Two great guests today. Close personal friends of each other. I'm proud to call them my friends too. Megan McCain, host of Citizen McCain, my colleague on the two way network and then Ben Ferguson. He the host of the eponymous Ben Ferguson podcast and the co host with Ted Cruz, Senator from Texas of the Verdict. They're coming next up and we're gonna have a great conversation about politics, the media, foreign policy and a whole lot more. But stay tuned because just a minute, you're gonna hear my reported monologue on Donald Trump and his impact on the news and on our brains. That monologue is next up. I want to tell you about a group called the Vapor Technology Association. It's an organization started about a decade ago to protect the rights of Americans who choose alternatives to smoking and about the small businesses who have made a living using this technology. They support science based policies and the rights of adults to make healthier choices. Did you know that many family owned vape shops and manufacturers across the country are now under attack thanks to what are outdated Biden era regulations that threaten to wipe out an entire industry? The Vapor Technology association, also known as vta, says businesses are being destroyed and people are losing their jobs here in America. But the VTA says President Trump has a clear opportunity now to change all this and to protect Americans, Right, to make their own choices and to defend small businesses and repeat, restore a free and fair marketplace. Head over now to VaporTechnology.org to learn more about the organization and why they are leading the charge to support American innovation in this field. And if their mission appeals to you while you're there, consider becoming a member of the group on the site. Again, that's vapor technology.org tell them you heard about all this on NextUp. All right, next up, my reported monologue on Donald Trump, the news cycle and our brains. This is unlike any other presidency we've ever covered. And of course, that's in part because it comes in two parts. Part one, 2017 to 2021. And now we're almost a year into part two with a four year interregnum during the Biden years. And I am, as much as anything, a student of Donald Trump's connection to America, Donald Trump's connection to the news business. It's a, it's an incredible story. And as much as it gets written about, I don't think the story's ever really been told how much his presence in our lives, particularly people who pay attention to politics, but even people who don't in our popular culture, how much Donald Trump drives all that, largely by design because he's got a nose for news and a fingertip feel for how to make things happen and get coverage. But I want to take you inside my process here. You know, every, every episode, every Tuesday and Thursday, I'm looking to do my reporting on what I think the biggest story is, because I want to be on point. I want to be on the topic that I think you'll be most interested in. And that's typically the biggest story in Trump time. The times of Trump, the days of Trump, the era of Trump. It's often hard to tell what the biggest story is. And so I do a lot of my reporting passively in the sense that I hear from folks, Democrats, Republicans, government officials, political strategists, business people, candidates, office holders. I hear from people who asking me questions or telling me their point of view on things. And typically that helps me understand what's going on. I'm blessed because I've been at this for so long and I've got deep connections again, not just in both parties, but across the country. I'm blessed to hear from a lot of people. And between that and monitoring the news on social media, cable news, other news sources, I'm usually pretty able to kind of hone things to narrow things down, to say, what are the three or four likely things that I'm going to want to report on and do deeper dive and get the best information for you for the program. And some days it's harder than others, usually because there's maybe four or five choices. Right. And so how do you narrow it down, particularly in a new cycle that moves so quickly? This news cycle was bonkers because about 25 stories, and I had that confirmed for me this morning. I went to bed last night thinking, man, I could talk about this or that. Trump and foreign policy, the shutdown, the struggles of the Democratic Party, you know, the aftermath of the rallies over the weekend. Latin America, China, Russia, just a million stories. So this morning, as I still was thinking about where to focus my reporting in the time left, I had plenty of good little tidbits on a bunch of things I did what I do often at 6am Eastern time, I'll be at the gym and I've got YouTube TV. If you don't have YouTube TV, you're making a big mistake. It's not an endorsement, although they should pay me because I'm their biggest fan. YouTube TV is an incredible way to access television of all sorts. And they've got what we used to call in the news business the quad split. Just go on my iPad and press a couple buttons and all of a sudden I'm watching cnn, msnbc, Fox News, and then the fourth one, they put the BBC, they want some furners in there for a little perspective. And. And so I watch at 6am and I see all one screen. What's everybody leading with? And I was so curious because at that point I had things narrowed down to about 10 possible stories and I still had some time to do additional reporting on wherever I landed. And so I lost count. But on the four shows they each did within the first five minutes, from 6 Eastern to 6:05, they each did like at least seven stories that they jumped around to, including some sports stories, including the heist at the Louvre. I don't have great Louvre sources. I probably should, but I don't. The Internet outage with Amazon aws, I was interested in that too. I'm interested in the Louvre, also interested in the World Series, but they each did at least seven stories in the first five minutes, and some of them did a couple more than that. And that told me what I needed to know, which is so the funky news cycle, about 75% of the story is related to Donald Trump. Okay. And right now, foreign and domestic, there's so much going on that he's generating. There never been a presidency like this. The closest in my career was, was Bill Clinton when he came in. He, he was the first Democratic president since Carter. There was a lot of interest in what he was doing. A very active first year, first, first, all eight years. Really nothing like this. If that was a, if that was a 10 on terms of generating news, this is a 40 or maybe a 50. And in part it's because there is so much more media, but it's in part because Trump is doing so many things. He's doing so many things and, and everybody's got an opinion about what he does. Like it, don't like it, like part of it. And I was just thinking about foreign policy. Okay. Trump is right now, and he'll tell you this. He does. He's, he's involved in a very intense and high level way, continuing with the Middle East. Now he's got help, of course, Jared Kushner and Witkoff, Ambassador Witkoff and Vice President, all in Israel this week. But president's very involved in that. Peace, the Middle east. For a normal president, that'd be, that'd be a big thing to be involved in. But he's also trying to make peace between Russia and Ukraine. Again, heavily involved in that. He spent with Zelensky, President Zelensky four times this year. Putin once and maybe again. And then he's also dealing with this upcoming summit with the Chinese and, and this existential struggle with the Chinese. Those are four. Those are as big as a sort of a foreign policy challenge as any president deals with. And yet he's dealing with all three at the same time. Again, intense and high level. And then, and then I thought this morning, because I got a question on two way for two days in a row, we did about Latin America. What's happening with Latin America? The President has active engagement spearheaded by Secretary Rubio, who's long been an expert on the region and super interested in it. Active engagement with at least half dozen Latin American countries, some allies, some less so. But just what's happening? This is literally somebody going to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. It's literally the most intense, high level engagement any president in my career has had with Latin America. Okay. I think by a lot. By a lot. And yet it's the fourth biggest foreign policy story, national security story for this president right now. That's incredible. It's incredible. And and it's almost all seen through the prism of Republicans cheering him on, even though there's some people in the Republican Party who don't like some of his views on these things. And the Democrats either being silent or critical for the most part, even though I'll say these were four areas not dealt with by Joe Biden. He was involved with them, but no, no meaningful progress. Now, the proof will be in the pudding at the end of Donald Trump's term how much success he's had in these four areas. And to continue to throw on cliched metaphors, the jury's out. There's not one of these four areas where you could be confident, even if you were the biggest Trump booster in the world, that this will end well. But he's trying different things. He's talking to people, he's being aggressive, even when public opinion isn't necessarily on his side. Great op ed piece in the Washington Post this week by a guy named Ned Price, longtime Democratic foreign policy thinker, served with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and he said all the normal throat clearing, of course, Donald Trump's horrible present in so many ways, including on foreign policy. But then he gave him credit, and I give Ned Price credit because he singled out some of the areas we've talked about here before. He's talking. President Trump is talking to our enemies. Joe Biden largely did not do that. And that's no way to make progress. He's trying new things. He's going against public opinion. Sometimes. These are all things that may or may not work, but they're different and they have the potential to solve Latin America, China, Middle East, Russia, Ukraine, whereas traditional foreign policy thinkers, including in the last administration, they tried, I'm not saying they didn't put in long hours at the office, but they were not on the path to solving those things. So on the foreign realm, you couldn't, you couldn't have bigger stories. And in fact, I've long said, I think they're undercovered, they're getting a lot of coverage. But these are, these are epic. These are monumental. These are not just for the Donald Trump's legacy, but for the planet, for the safety of the planet, for the, for the lives of people. Incredible. And then here at home, again, too many stories to count, too many stories to enunciate, Some not involved in the president. He's not involved directly with the World Series or with the AWS outage or with Karine Jean Pierre's book, but he's involved with a, heck, a lot of stuff. Starting with government shutdown. For some reason, the President, he talks about it almost every day. Somehow, normally he wants to be involved. Somehow he's cast as a supporting player, even though he talks about it, even though he's the president. And the shutdowns on his watch. And you could expect President, perhaps the president to be calling the Democrats on a regular basis, having them up to the White House to try to solve this. He's escaping largely unscathed. And the polls suggest that he's not held blameless in the polls, but it's not overwhelmingly at his doorstep. And even the people in Congress, the Democrats, anxious to get him involved, the Republicans don't seem to be. So again, that's a huge story. And then you have these, these other stories that are super important and meaningful, but maybe not as important as Russia, Ukraine or the Middle east or China. President continues to have court decisions about whether he can send the National Guard to cities. President continues to see his own Justice Department, at his urging, indict a new person practically every week, someone who's a political enemy of his. The President continues to do things related to the economy and tariffs that are hugely important, hugely important. And then there are these other issues that get a ton of attention. Presidents decided he wants to build a ballroom at the White House, not paid for with taxpayer money. But yesterday, on Monday, this week, the pictures came out, video and still pictures of construction at the White House. I can't tell you how many Democrats I've heard about from on that. And I say to them, I understand you don't like the pictures that show stuff being knocked down at the White House. And the President made remarks previously that suggested, forget the exact words used, but there wouldn't be massive damage the White House or changes there. It appears, if you take him literally, parse his words carefully, wasn't strictly right there, but that's not a very big story to me. But again, the President, whether on purpose or not, has people riled up. Here's something I'm virtually certain he did on purpose. He tweeted a video, AI generated video of him, like as a superhero, I guess, pouring sewage on the no Kings protesters. Silly video. And yet I've literally heard from more than five Democrats who've said in one way or another, this is one of the most horrible things Donald Trump's ever done. This disgusting imagery of sewage. Again, the man is just so dominant in the, in the brains that expression lives rent free in their heads. They've just not learned to ignore this. What seems to me to be relatively trivial stuff. So I see today as I, as I did all my reporting on, you know, half dozen, really more than a half dozen topics, I see a president whose poll numbers aren't great, but they're, they're better than the, than the Democrats poll numbers, who's not running for election, who's super concerned about the midterms and who's got these very big projects going on. And I see on the Democratic side an uncertainty about what's wrong with their own party, but a certainty that what's wrong with America is Donald Trump. That's what I see. And I also see even the most studious minds, even the closest observers to all this. I don't think we really understand the methods of Donald Trump, the influence of Donald Trump, his capacity to drive the news cycle and often to win the news cycle by whatever metrics we can use. And, and I think about just the, just basically the rest of the year, all these big foreign policy stories are going to play out. The government shutdown is going to play out. The tariffs are going to play out. These legal cases are going to play out. The Supreme Court will decide on a lot of stuff. The National Guard issue will play out. There's a lot coming up. And what I see again is Trump will be the dominant figure. There's no one in the Democratic Party who can touch him. And, and his side is, is, is fine with that. They've, they've kind of priced into the stock. Donald Trump will be the dominant figure. And what I've heard more in the last day than almost anything is from Democrats saying they got 100 grievances, 100 grievances about the prosecutions, about the sewage video, about the ballroom, about the shutdown. And, and you know, my friend Joe Scarborough has this saying, if you're moving 700 miles per hour, no one's going to slow you down, let alone stop you. And then I take that metaphor and I supercharge. You say if you're a 700 pound gorilla and you're moving 700 miles per hour, nobody's going to slow you down and certainly nobody's going to stop you. And that has been the pace Trump has kept for most of the last 10 years. Even when he was not the president, for four years he was out. But right now, this is staggering. This is staggering. And you think about the folks in the White House, they're running all these foreign policy things, they're dealing with all these domestic policy things in the midst of a government shutdown where their employees who are laid off their employees who are not at work. Most of the White House folks are central government employees. So they're there, but they're laboring under a very limited condition. And it doesn't really matter. It does not really matter because Trump himself can drive so much of this, drive so much, very able Cabinet, very able White House staff. But so much of this is driven by Donald Trump. I've just, I'm just staggered, particularly by those foreign policy projects as big as any any president I've ever covered has worked on. And he's doing four of them right now. And that's not including the tariffs. Four of them right now, China, Russia, Ukraine and Middle east and Latin America. It's just staggering. And it's why I had to abandon all my, my reporting on these little topics and just tell you, some days you have to sit back and marvel at what this guy, this guy's capacity to just dominate, dominate our days. All right, so next up, we're going to talk to two great people, two friends of mine, Megan McCain and Ben Ferguson, about, about some of these big Trump projects and where they stand and also about how they'd fix two small institutions, CBS News and Democratic Party. That's coming next up. But I do want to know what you think about what I just said. So send me an email nextup halperinmail.com you can always watch our show on X or Instagram or TikTok. Our handle is @nextup halpern. And we'd love for you also to watch the show so you could see what I'm wearing. As always, what stains are on my shirts. You want to miss that, watch us on YouTube.com @nextup halperin. And next up, host of Citizen McCain on Two Way, my friend Megan McCain and her best buddy, Ben Ferguson, host the Ben Ferguson Podcast, co host of the Verdict with Ted Cruz, two great talkers. Next up, if you're a homeowner in the United States, you need to listen to this. The FBI has been warning about a type of real estate fraud on the rise. It's called title theft. And your equity is the target. Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on a single document, use a fake notary stamp and file it with the county. And just like that, on record, they own your home using your ownership. They take out loans against your equity and even sell your property in some cases. And you won't know about it until foreclosure or collection notices show up in the mailbox. That's why I've partnered with the folks at Home Title lock so you can protect your equity. And find out today if you're already a victim. 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It's cybersecurity awareness month and Lifelock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected. With a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply.
- [21:58]
Mark Halperin
Next up and joining me now, two close friends who are so personally close and professional. I feel a little embarrassed and uncomfortable even being in the segment. So I'll step aside as needed. Meghan McCain, my colleague at Two Way, host of Citizen McCain and Ben Ferguson, host of the Ben Ferguson podcast and the co host of the Verdict with Ted Cruz. So happy to have you both back. Thank you for making time.
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Megan McCain
Thank you.
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Ben Ferguson
Good to be here.
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Mark Halperin
Which is a bigger deal in your house, Megan, Halloween or the World Series?
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Megan McCain
Halloween. I don't care about the World Series.
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Mark Halperin
What about your male spouse? Does he care about the World Series? Yes.
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Megan McCain
Yes. But I don't.
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Mark Halperin
I'm sorry, Ben. Which a bigger deal in your house, Halloween or the World Series?
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Ben Ferguson
If the Astros were in it, then it would definitely be the World Series. But since it's like one team, not even in America, I think that made it last night. No one cares in my house.
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Mark Halperin
Okay, It's a team from North America. Let's be clear. I ran into a friend at the airport, Trudeau's team.
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Ben Ferguson
That's all I know.
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Mark Halperin
Right. Yeah, understood. I ran a friend at the airport yesterday and we've talked about Halloween. My, my son, his grandkids. I believe Halloween may be kids favorite holiday. Is that a consensus?
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Ben Ferguson
No, Christmas. Like, dude, Christmas they're already talking about. Hey, would Santa bring. What was it my son asked for? He goes, would Santa put in a ice cream shop in our backyard? That is a six year old.
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Mark Halperin
Reasonable it's reasonable. It's not impossible. Megan, is Christmas bigger than Halloween for your girls?
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Megan McCain
Okay, so I go crazy for all holidays. Like, I decorate our house for everything, and I love everything. So even, like St. Patrick's Day is a big deal. So they love everything because we always do, like, treats and stuff. But they love Halloween. I don't know. They're really into Halloween.
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Mark Halperin
Ben, you ever spend Arbor day with the McCain's? It's a huge holiday for them.
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Ben Ferguson
I have not. But if you've ever been to a McCain party, no one parties like the McCain's parties. They do it all out. I felt inadequate even with, like, comparing my own wedding celebration, which is as big as it gets.
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Mark Halperin
You want to, you want to see what it's like at Arbor Day there. They go all out. They do the traditional Arbor Day stuff, but then they do add ons. All right, I want to talk about, for real, though.
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Megan McCain
Fourth of July. Everyone should experience.
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Mark Halperin
No, I know. You got the handheld. The handheld sparklers. Okay. So much with Trump, 10 years of Trump. So many things happen that are just. We can't process them. We've accepted the new normal that incredible things happen. Like, he's turned the East Wing into a construction site. But that's a spectacle. This is real. He's. He's dealing at an intense and high level way with China, Russia, and the Middle east all at once. What's going on in Latin America under Marco Rubio's stewardship is incredible. There's never been in our lifetime, there's never been this cadence of foreign policy stuff between the United States and Latin American countries, and yet that's, you know, not even in the top three, because these other things are such a big deal. So I want to talk about Middle East, Ukraine, Russia and China with you, too. It's like, it's like having Richard Haass and David Ignatius on, only different. Here we go. Middle East. What about the policy now, as we sit here and talk today with the vice president in the region and Jared Kushner and Witkoff there, what's going right and is comforting to you and what seems like a little bit scarier off on Trump administration policy towards the Middle.
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Megan McCain
East, Megan, what's going right is that they're still so defiantly pro Israel and on the side of Israel in, you know, we're all seeing, in particularly Republican politics on the far right, there's a lot of shifting happening on support of Israel. So I've been so happy to see he's just stalwart and defiant on which side he's on. And that makes me very happy. I was very happy to see the Vice President Vance's think already landed in Israel as well. What makes me nervous is just Hamas is a group of psychotic terrorists. You know, we can't trust them making any kind of deals of any kind. They. My understanding is they still haven't released the remains of some of the hostages, which is part of the initial deal, and we have no reason to ever trust them or believe they won't break a deal. So I just don't know how you negotiate with any terrorists, but particularly them. But overall, I'm very pleased with Trump's Middle Eastern agenda and the way that he's approached everything.
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Mark Halperin
Ben, flip them. Same question, but start with what's making you nervous or uncomfortable or maybe scary to you about. Not about Hamas, but about the policy. And then. And then what's working?
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Ben Ferguson
Well, look, I'm not that concerned with the policy. There's nothing that really makes me nervous, because I think what you're seeing from President Trump is he understands he has leverage on both sides on the side of going after Hamas. He's like, look, you guys don't abide by this. I'm more than happy for America to come and blow you up. He's also understands he has an incredible amount of leverage to get sensible and logical things out of Israel as well, because, like, look, we're your biggest ally and you need us, and I'm going to leverage that against you.
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Mark Halperin
And.
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Ben Ferguson
And I'm going to make it very clear that what has been happening in the past is not acceptable when it comes to negotiations. So you better sit down with me. I'm going to get you a good deal, but you're going to have to compromise here. And then there's just the reality on the ground. Hamas rolls in as the ceasefire takes effect, and they're like, all right, let's bring a bunch of people in the streets and let's start, you know, literally exterminating people, shooting them in the back of the heads, having public executions. That's the terrorist organization that you have to live next to. So this again goes back to Israel having the right to defend themselves. How do you deal or live or negotiate with people that are doing that? I think the world's seeing it yet again. It's a great reminder of who they're dealing with. And I think the President's willing to do whatever it takes to get rid of the terrorists, but also to have peace in the Middle east, the same time using the leverage of the U.S. i actually believe that this is something Trump could not have accomplished if he would have won reelection after its first term. I think having those four years in between made him a calmer, I think a better negotiator. And I think now what you're witnessing from him is something he would have never been able to do if he would have won again right after his first time in office.
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Mark Halperin
Totally agree. And I think that's true, actually, about a lot of his policies. Yeah, he got rested and time to think and reflect and then got to watch Joe Biden set an example, I'll say that, of maybe what not to do. Get out your Ouija boards, your magic eight balls, and, and your, what do you call it, horoscopes. What is, what does Gaza look like In January of 27, 2029, as Donald Trump leaves office? Is it. What is it? What does it look like in terms of infrastructure and who's governing it? What do you think?
- [28:28]
Ben Ferguson
Look, I wish I could tell you that I don't think anybody knows at this point. I do think what you'll see is if it's not another Republican that wins, then there's a very good chance, unfortunately, that the terrorists will continue to expand. I mean, that's one of the things we've kind of seen is when Democrats are in office, what you witness is the rise of ISIS or Al Qaeda and the rise of Hamas and Hezbollah, because when Democrats come in, they get really, really weak. And so that's what concerns me the most, is that aspect of it. Will Hezbollah be in charge? That's going to be up to the people there, the Palestinians there, for them to decide are they willing to stand up or not. It is also, by the way, really hard to stand up to terrorist organizations when they're the ones that created the atmosphere around you. And so part of this goes back to, are we going to finish them off? Are we going to allow Israel to finish them off? And I think we're getting closer, actually, to that.
- [29:17]
Mark Halperin
Megan, what do you think your friend Joe Lieberman would have thought of this deal?
- [29:21]
Megan McCain
Oh, I think he would have been very happy about it. I know he was happy about the Abraham Accords, and he was, you know, obviously huge Zionist. And I learned so much about Israel from him when I was growing up and in my formative years. So I think he'd be very supportive and very happy. And, you know, I agree with what Ben just said. I often have moments recently where I was like, what would the world look like if Vice President Harris was president. And one thing, I don't love making predictions, but the one thing I can guarantee is that she would not have cared about Israel. She would have probably, you know, you're already hearing her talking about how Israel is a genocidal country and all these things, and I think she would have let the red meat of her far progressive base take over. And again, no doubt we can have a different kind of conversation about whether you agree with that or not, but I think that's an existential danger to the global stability of just our planet. So I just, I'm so grateful for President Trump being in office right now because I'm not exaggerating. I'm not trying to be, like, hubristic or hysterical, but like, it would be a very different global climate if Vice President Harris were present in this moment right now.
- [30:26]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, without a doubt. I don't know who she would have had in her government, but I don't think it would have been. I can't think of anybody who'd be doing the job Marco Rubio is doing as well as the others.
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Ben Ferguson
Let me say one other thing real quick that I think is maybe even the bigger story here is that the president also met with all these other countries in the Middle east, and I think they're now more in line to fight terrorism in their own country than they have been probably since right after 9, 11. Because when he meets with them, and if you look at the foreign policy and Marco Rubio, it is very clear we will not tolerate this. You do not allow it to fester. You do not support it. You do not aid it. You do not look the other way if it's growing in your country, if you want a relationship with the United States of America. And so I think one of the biggest aspects of what we're seeing with Israel and Palestine is all these other countries are on notice. You do not want to go there. And how many lives is that going to save?
- [31:23]
Mark Halperin
Yep, totally agree. And then, and then there's a question of, for Turkey, Saudi Gulf states, Indonesia. Yeah. Will they, will they be in Abraham Accords, too? Will they fund whatever mission there needs to be to put troops on the ground in Gaza and will they put their own troops on the ground in Gaza? All that is pending and, and not very openly discussed. But, but it appears on track. The President acts as if that stuff's happening. And, and just getting the checks written, talks all the time about how rich they are, just getting those checks written would be huge. All right, that's on track. Lots of Variables, lots of questions, but that's on track. The two that are just completely. I wouldn't say stalled completely, but with a question, it's really question marks as opposed to anything. Is, is China. And then first I want to talk about Russia, Ukraine. Megan, same question. The president's been all over the map on. On everything related to Putin and Zelensky. What's working well in this process from your point of view, and what worries you about the attempt to make peace between those two leaders who the president's constantly saying do not like each other?
- [32:22]
Megan McCain
This is so hard to follow. And as someone who's paid to follow it, it's so hard to follow. So I can't imagine an average American how they feel. I mean, one day, Vice President Vance is screaming at Zelinsky in the Oval Office. The next day, Zelensky and Melania Trump are getting private letters from President Zelensky's wife. And it seems like it's a love fest in the Oval Office with Trump and President Zelensky. And then another day, Trump is coming out, I believe just two days, saying, like, he's got to get in track. And they can only, you know, that the area of land that he has is the only one that he can't. Donbass. I believe he was like, he can't have it. And I have no idea where it stands. I do think at the end of the day, Trump feels. I don't want to speak for him, but it's clear that Alaska summit didn't go exactly the way everyone had anticipated. I think he thought that was a moment where he was going to sort of get Putin to come to terms with him. And that hasn't happened. And I legitimately have no idea where this goes. And every president since Bush is trying to have a realignment with Vladimir Putin. It never works. Remember that President Bush said, I looked in his eyes and I saw a soul. I mean, this has been going on for a long time. I was hopeful President Trump could be the person to change it. I am much less hopeful now.
- [33:35]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Ben, what's going well? Let's emphasize the positive. What's going well from your point of view in trying to get this.
- [33:40]
Ben Ferguson
This deal done, constantly trying new and different ways to negotiate. I think that's one of the things that Donald Trump does well, is not just have one strategy and one strategy only. We've had a lot of one strategies with other administrations. That just doesn't work. And so, look, going and trying different things, whether it's leathers, whether it's engaging the first lady. Whether it's talking tough in the Oval Office, at least. He's constantly trying to find a new way around the train wreck. Right. He's trying to get around the traffic and keep moving forward to get to the end, which is to stop this war. Look, Vladimir Putin is, I think, a psychotic individual who has no problem watching his own people die at record rates and sending wounded soldiers back into battle that should never be sent back into battle. That tells you how soulless he is an individual. He's also a guy that kills everybody that ever rises up against him as an adversary. So you're dealing with a psychotic individual. That's clear. It's hard to deal with someone like that. And if you go in heavy handed and, and not trying to find some way to just connect or communicate, this will never end. I think my biggest concern is this could turn into a 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 year longer war. And what Donald Trump is trying to do is stop the insanity here. I think having meetings, by the way, in Hungary with Viktor Orban, they clearly don't like this instability in that part of the world. I've met with Victor several times. It's his biggest concern is that it bleeds over into somehow into his country and the refugees and the other things that happen from this. So there are a lot of countries around there that are more than happy right now to do whatever they can do to try to facilitate conversations. And that's really what it's about. It's facilitating conversations. I do think where we may get close on this is if there's an economic moment where Russia just can't afford to keep this battle going. They are teetering economically, internally. From what I have heard from people that are in Russia and work with Russia, this is costing them dearly financially. And if we can expose their weakness and the President can push the right buttons economically, maybe even with more sanctions and dealing with oil, that could be also something else. And we've seen the price of oil and gas coming down. That doesn't help Russia either. And I think the President's going to try to use all those levers to his advantage.
- [35:50]
Mark Halperin
You know, there are some people in Europe, some people in the Biden administration who said you can't do a deal with Putin that rewards him because of the precedent. That would say he invaded another country and violated their sovereignty. Yeah, but it's pretty clear now that if there's a deal, Putin's going to get stuff, he's going to get territory.
- [36:06]
Ben Ferguson
Unfortunately.
- [36:06]
Mark Halperin
Yes. Yeah. So. So is there anything that's a bright line for you all? Is there anything you'd say, Mr. President, that deal is not worth having. Let him. Let them fight it out. Or at this point, you know, they're just negotiating over, as Churchill would say, the price.
- [36:21]
Ben Ferguson
I think it's the price. And look, ultimately, I think what the President's probably going to end up doing here is going to Zelinsky saying, what can you accept? And then going to Russia and doing the same exact thing, I think. But is it.
- [36:31]
Mark Halperin
Is there anything. Is there anything you would consider unwise to accept?
- [36:34]
Ben Ferguson
I hate to say that, because I don't know what they're saying in the room. If they said give up half the country, of course I'd be against that. If you're talking about battle lines now, this is going to be a decision Zelensky is going to have to make for his people. I don't have an opinion, except for the fact that I would say you don't give up half your country or a quarter of your country, and that's the hard part.
- [36:53]
Mark Halperin
How about 20%?
- [36:55]
Ben Ferguson
Again, I don't know that number, because it's ultimately Zelensky's decision for his people. What I do know is, is giving up 5 or 10 or 15 or 20% worth saving 1000-002000-00300,000, 400,000 Ukrainians lives. That is an equation that Zelinsky is going to have to make and a decision. I think that's what Donald Trump has basically been signaling here, is how many more dead citizens that you're supposed to be protecting and representing are you willing to sacrifice and then still probably have to make a deal with Vladimir Putin.
- [37:27]
Mark Halperin
Right. Megan, how worried are you about nuclear war in this conflict? There's a huge concern for the first part of the war. And now people are sort of, I would say blithely, but. But talking without reservation about maybe giving Ukraine Tomahawks, which. Which was previously thought to be a trigger that could lead to nuclear war. So does that. Is that concern you? As you think about the calculus here.
- [37:50]
Megan McCain
There'S an old adage about Putin that he is just a country that's a gas station or something, that Russia is actually a lot less economically rich than they proselytize globally.
- [38:01]
Mark Halperin
I think your dad called it a gas station with nukes.
- [38:03]
Megan McCain
So did Rachel Maddow. There's, like, a bunch of people that say the gas station. Like, I. One of the things I always try and keep reminding myself is like, Vladimir Putin has to, like, do all these insane things, like build himself a giant castle with an ice dancing rink and all this crazy stuff, because he's actually a lot weaker than, than, you know, he wants people to believe. So I'm not, I mean, maybe I'm just naive, but I'm not overly concerned about nuclear war because I think the reason why he's trying to expand into Ukraine and all these places is because he needs their minerals, he needs their oil, and he needs all the things that Ukraine has. So I, I'm not overly concerned, but that doesn't, I mean, you know, I'm not overly concerned, but that doesn't mean it, it can't change by the moment.
- [38:50]
Mark Halperin
Right. All right, last country we're talking about, China.
- [38:52]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Mark Halperin
This is, this is the big one. This, the existential struggle. It's economic, it's diplomatic, it's geopolitical, it's cyber war. It's everything military. Megan, how are you feeling about, you know, President Scott Besson's going to have some meetings, the president's going to meet with Xi, but it's not going to be climactic. How are you feeling about the team Trump's kind of strategic vision for, for besting China in this process?
- [39:18]
Megan McCain
I think China has us over a barrel right now. Even everything from, like, the soybean farmers to TikTok, which I personally like TikTok, so probably makes me a big hypocrite. But there's there. They have so many, 10 tentacles in our country in so many different ways, and I don't understand. And I, I believe there's like a bunch of people in Congress that have tried to present this as a bill, like, why is China allowed to buy our farmland.
- [39:41]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [39:41]
Megan McCain
At all. Why in any context whatsoever? I have very serious questions about that. I don't understand how it's in any way legal or ethical. We give them too much rope. I have very serious questions about spies coming into the country, about, they're kind of like, you know, like what they are doing in all facets of our country when it comes to, like I said, the youth on TikTok, to our farmland, to everything else. So I, I'm not overly impressed with any kind of anything that we have done in regards to China. But I, I far from, you know, evolved enough to know what the answer is. But I think right now they're winning.
- [40:18]
Ben Ferguson
Ben, I actually disagree with Megan on this one and only because I think that China has been so tight with how good they're claiming things are. One of the things I have a family member that has a company and they manufacture heavily in China. And they are moving so much of their manufacturing now to Vietnam and to other countries because they just cannot depend now on China from a manufacturing standpoint. I think Covid hurt them in that. Number one. I now think what you're witnessing is if you're in a manufacturer in Europe or America and all your eggs are in that basket, you're also having a hard time with capital. You're having a hard time with banks lending. That's one of the quiet things that's not been talked about enough. And private equity are now really saying, hey, we aren't excited about being in companies that are all in in China because it can get shut down in a moment or another. Covid happens. So we want diversification that is hurting manufacturing in China in a significant way. And I actually believe that the longer this kind of drags out with the tariff war, the more it is actually offloading China into other countries and giving other countries stability. Vietnam is an unbelievable example of this. They are building right now manufacturing like they've never seen before. And that is because so many American companies and countries, companies in Europe are just saying, we can't take this risk any longer with China. They are not a fair partner when it comes to trade. And this is too big of an issue for the next three years while Trump's in office. I think you're going to get a deal done. I think it's going to be probably a pretty good deal. I think you're going to see the tariffs come down. But the president has more leverage there economically than I think the public kind of realizes. And losing those jobs in manufacturing is having a huge impact on China right now.
- [42:02]
Mark Halperin
All right, boom, boom, boom. We dealt with the Middle east. We dealt with Russia, Ukraine. We dealt with China. All taken care of. When we come back, Megan and Ben are going to fix CBS News and maybe the Democratic Party. That's next up, Everybody, if you're 64 years old or older, this is an important announcement. The Department of Justice recently sued three major Medicare brokers for claiming they were unbiased while allegedly pushing people into plans that got them the biggest kickbacks. It's so true. So many insurance agents, they just can't be trusted. But you can't necessarily rely on government information either. That's why I want you to know about Chapter. Chapter was started by people who went through all of this personally after their own parents were pushed into the wrong Medicare plan by an agent more focused on commissions than on care. Chapter's mission is very simple. To give every American the honest, straightforward Medicare advice they need and they deserve. And here's what makes them different. They're the only Medicare advisor that compares every plan nationwide, not just a handful. That saves their clients an average of $1,100 every year. There's no reason not to make the call. It's quick, it's easy, and they can review all your options in under 20 minutes. If you're already in the right plan, they'll let you know that. But if there's a better plan, they'll help you make the switch. This could be the most important call you make this year. Dial £250 and say chapter Medicare to get that peace of mind. Again, that's £250 and say the words chapter Medicare.
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- [44:12]
Mark Halperin
All right, back with us. And next up once again, Megan McCain, my two way colleague, host of Citizen McCain and Ben Ferguson, host the Ben Ferguson Podcast and the co host of the Verdict with Ted Cruz. Let's do our obligatory reminder, everybody. Megan, when, when and where can people watch your show?
- [44:27]
Megan McCain
At noon on Mondays and Wednesdays on YouTube or the Two Way app and you can join us on Zoom and then you can listen to it on all the places you find podcasts or just on YouTube.
- [44:36]
Mark Halperin
Now you had a big George Santos exclusive this week. Tell us how, tell us how that came about. How did you book, how did you book the ex con?
- [44:44]
Megan McCain
We are friends. He actually did his like first podcast interview like ever with me a long time ago. This one, he was still in Congress and I, I didn't know what to think. My bosses at the time were not thrilled. A little gossip afterward and people now apparently are not that thrilled. But I'm like, I think he's like a fascinating figure and he's very funny and I love like a, I love like a entertaining, over the top guest no matter who they are. And he had very interesting things to say about the Trump administration. I'm sure you, I can give you his phone number if you'd like to.
- [45:13]
Mark Halperin
It's, it's a Great interview. I recommend it. Ben, when are your two shows available.
- [45:17]
Ben Ferguson
So you can grab my show, the Ben Ferguson podcast, every morning, wherever you get your podcast. Also Verdict with Ted Cruz, that co host. We do that Monday, Wednesday, Friday. We had a very interesting interview actually two days ago with Eric Trump about his family and how the government was weaponized against them and some shocking details that I didn't even know about. How much money they actually spent to defend themselves was insane. So if you get a chance, grab it and listen to it. Verdict would take cruise as well.
- [45:43]
Mark Halperin
Ben, I've asked you this before, but what do you put on your tax returns as your occupation?
- [45:47]
Ben Ferguson
Talk show connoisseur.
- [45:50]
Mark Halperin
Connoisseur. Megan, Political commentator Carvel used to put on reconter.
- [45:57]
Ben Ferguson
I like that.
- [45:58]
Mark Halperin
I don't know how many, I don't know how many people tried to get that through the irs, but he loved him. Yeah, he's smart guy. All right, cbs, we talked here last episode, I think maybe two ago, about Barry Weiss. People on the right who talk for a living like you two, complain about the liberal media, but you all get content out of it. You get to fire, fire people up. Like, it's been very, very good to you to have liberal media, but now Barry's trying to fix cbs. So I just want you guys to just let this, like, open letter to Barry. What are things she should be trying to do? So, for instance, one issue is all the liberal people who work there. Does she need to fire everybody? Let's start there. Can she, can she reprogram the people there? And I'll just say one more thing. Leslie Stahl did one of the most biased interviews with Donald Trump ever. Right. And then they give her the Jared Kushner Witkoff interview. So maybe, maybe they think we rehab Leslie Stahl here in her final, final years of her career. So start with that. Megan, does Barry need to clean house? Does she need to fire anybody? And actually she figure out who's too liberal to keep.
- [47:02]
Megan McCain
So a little just background for you. I've known Barry Weiss a really long time. We actually went to college together. So like, I've known her Waba Waba did not very long.
- [47:10]
Mark Halperin
Were you in the same class?
- [47:12]
Megan McCain
Were. We were in some philosophy classes together, yes.
- [47:14]
Mark Halperin
But like the same year.
- [47:16]
Megan McCain
Yep. We graduated. Yeah.
- [47:18]
Mark Halperin
That's just crazy.
- [47:19]
Megan McCain
I. And there was a lot of gossip, which is public about the, the person she dated in college who's also famous. So just feel free to Google that. But in regards to, I, I don't like cbs and I was going to shock everybody. I think it's incredibly biased. I think it's just like, ridiculous. I think their morning show is like, ridiculous and.
- [47:40]
Mark Halperin
Okay, but let me, let me stop. Let me stop you. I'll let you keep on your complicated. How horrib do you want it to be saved or would you rather just die?
- [47:47]
Megan McCain
Well, I don't. The thing is, like, when you talk about these networks, there's a lot of, like, nice crew people and producers who are just like, trying to do jobs. I don't want them to lose their jobs.
- [47:55]
Mark Halperin
I understand, but is it good for America to save cbs? Or do you think it's beyond redemption? Or do you just hate them so much you just want them to die?
- [48:02]
Megan McCain
I prefer independent media and I think the most does too. And I, I, you know, good job on everybody for even trying. But I think that I respect. Respectful to her. And you know, as someone who like, like worked in at ABC for a while, I just read a New York Times article about her and she was surprised at the level of leaking. And I wanted to be like, buckle up, honey. You have no idea how bad it's about to get. Like, I can remember when I was at ABC literally going from the elevator and putting my hood up and running from the elevator in my dressing room just so no one would see me and be able to leak that, like, oh, she stopped and like, got coffee at the thing and she was such a bitch when she got coffee. She's the worst person ever. Like, and my nickname was Elsa, like, the ice queen.
- [48:44]
Mark Halperin
Like, if the business cards, if the business cards there were legit, it would say, like, senior producer slash professional leaker. They leaked a lot. Ben, Megan's heart spirit is not in the premise of this segment because she just basically wants the crew to get jobs elsewhere and the rest of her jobs. But, but Ben, I want them to.
- [49:03]
Megan McCain
Watch Ben in your show instead.
- [49:05]
Mark Halperin
Take my question, Take my question seriously. Does Barry need to fire a lot of people to make. If she wants to set it right?
- [49:12]
Ben Ferguson
I mean, you're going to have to have some sort of real recalibration if you want people to take it seriously. Otherwise it will die by default. And not just like, have a token conservative on. You're going to have to hire someone that is a real conservative to be on your network on the regular basis. I actually, it was probably, I don't know, eight, nine years ago now. My contract, it was in that open time and I was at cnn. I went and met with them and I walked out And I called my agent afterwards and I laughed and I was like, that was not a job interview. That was me debating with the head of their political coverage. Like, there's no chance in hell we're going to get an offer from them. It was very clear. It was almost just like, I'm intrigued to see what a conservative thinks and I'll debate them in my office for an hour. It was nothing close to being serious. It was clear, though I wasn't welcome there, my views weren't welcome there. And anyone else that's a real conservative like me was not welcome there either. And they'll have fake conservatives on, as I call them, the Rhinos and, and the Mitt Romney type people. Like, until you actually start having a consistent bullpen of conservatives that know how to defend the president America and advocate for his positions, whether it's your Sunday morning show or your morning show that you have or your weekend morning show, like it's going to die. Like it's just going to die because there's too many Americans overlooking the channel.
- [50:29]
Megan McCain
Can I start though that? Like, and again, I'm not, I don't have an issue with what's happening at CBS and Barry taking over, but I do know, just again, because Ben and I are very deep in like, conservative land. Barry is not conservative. She's not a Republican. She never voted for Trump. Like, she is not a cultural conservative. She's not, I think she's a pro choice, anti gun, you know, anti woke liberal, which is great, that has its lane. But the idea that so many people in the media are presenting her like she's some kind of like, person like Ben and I is not accurate like that. But like, I have, I don't have, I don't entirely trust this either. Like, respectfully, like, I'm sorry you didn't put like Megyn Kelly in or whatever. Like it's like. But, but this goes back to trust this too. Like, I don't, respectfully, I don't trust it either.
- [51:22]
Mark Halperin
Okay. If they're cons, if they're liberal commentators, like on Face the Nation, there should be conservative commentators. And as you said, real ones. Real ones. Not. Not Mark, not Mark Short, as much as I love Mark Short, dnc Understand. But I'm talking about a news division, right? I'm talking about the people who are covering the White House or hosting Face the Nation. You guys don't want those to be conservatives, right? You want those to be people who are actually fair or you don't.
- [51:46]
Ben Ferguson
I'd be fine if they actually had just a real journalist that just reported the damn news. But that ain't going to happen. And you and I both know why not.
- [51:53]
Mark Halperin
Why can't it happen?
- [51:54]
Ben Ferguson
I, if it happens, I'll be the first to come on here and say, oh my gosh, cbs. God bless you, you guys.
- [51:58]
Mark Halperin
But is that, but is that what, is that what we want them to do?
- [52:01]
Ben Ferguson
Sure. I would be nonpartisan.
- [52:05]
Mark Halperin
Okay, let's get, let's get more micro gonna happen. Like Barry's letting us. This is, this is a fantasy here. But Barry's letting us redo the morning show. So we got two hours, we got seven to nine. Who should host it? What should the format be?
- [52:20]
Megan McCain
They're all fired. All those hosts are fired.
- [52:22]
Mark Halperin
Okay, so, ok, clean house. Who do we bring in? And let's stipulate not the three of us, even though that would be the right thing.
- [52:29]
Ben Ferguson
Look, I don't even know if I have a name. I would say someone. You need someone that's entertaining on a morning show that makes people laugh, that you just like to watch.
- [52:37]
Mark Halperin
Right?
- [52:37]
Ben Ferguson
You need someone that also is a little bit unique and understands unique type stories and things that are not necessarily mainstream. And then I think you need a couple people that can be political and have grand debates that actually don't hate each other. I mean, part of, I think what we're missing in TV nowadays is a grand debate. It's just most time if I go on a liberal network or a liberal channel, it is four or five against one. That's normal. Most of the time I get texts from Megan. It's like, God bless you for doing it. I wouldn't put up with that crap. It's like the host against you and four others. And then when you try to defend yourself, like, hold on, Ben, be quiet. Wait, wait, don't interrupt. I'm like, it's four against one. Have it be an authentic debate with two intellectuals.
- [53:16]
Mark Halperin
100. All right, CBS Evening News, you can pick a single anchor. Who should the anchor CBS Evening News be?
- [53:22]
Megan McCain
Who anchors it now? Like, yeah, I don't.
- [53:25]
Ben Ferguson
That's a great question.
- [53:26]
Mark Halperin
That's actually John Dickerson and Maurice dubois doing like a weird tag team that.
- [53:30]
Ben Ferguson
Tells you, by the way, and we're not joking, everything you need to know about the nightly news, of course we.
- [53:35]
Mark Halperin
Don'T watch anymore, but I'm telling you, you've got, you got 5 million viewers like locked in. Who, who would you make the host of CBS Evening News? Anybody. They, they don't have to.
- [53:43]
Ben Ferguson
They could be under Both of you.
- [53:44]
Megan McCain
And like literally any sentient human that doesn't hate conservatives and well, but, but.
- [53:49]
Mark Halperin
Do you want the host of CBS News to be conservative or do you want to be a fair.
- [53:52]
Megan McCain
They just can't hate us.
- [53:53]
Ben Ferguson
Just give me a journalist. Give me a journalist that will actually realize, for example, when a girl is stabbed on the subway, that you cover that story.
- [54:02]
Megan McCain
Right.
- [54:03]
Ben Ferguson
And that you cover it well and you talk about it when it happens and not give zero minutes to that when, when Donald Trump's approval rating goes up during the government shutdown. Have someone that leads the news with that story, which is significant and don't bury it and act like it didn't happen.
- [54:19]
Mark Halperin
Is there any correspondent in television news today who you consider to be worthy of Walter Cronkite seat? Anybody you can think of.
- [54:26]
Ben Ferguson
I can't do that.
- [54:28]
Megan McCain
I like that are okay. That I like. Who is the pollster on NBC that Kornacki. I really like him. Like, there's some people that I still like, like, respect, like it's not all a disaster. There's definitely some pieces here and there, people who are trying. But the problem is, and again, I think you also have to imagine Ben worked at CNN for a very long time. I worked at ABC and MSNBC and all these like liberal spaces. The problem is we know what it's like behind the scenes. We know like, we know how the you whatever I say is however much you think they hate Republicans, it's so much more they, they do not want us to exist. They don't want to be having. I can remember having conversations with people that I worked with where I was like, you have to have a conversation with someone who makes less than 100 grand a year. Yeah, that is your goal. You have to go out and talk to someone who is not going to the Hamptons on a helicopter every weekend. Like this is an issue and it's such a siloed environment that I even if you put these. The problem is, say you hire a great journalist, you know, or a, or a center right, center left person to come in, they're going to get hazed and abused and treated the way at all. Everybody who goes to these spaces, Catherine Herridge, Megan Kelly, me, blah, blah, blah. The list is very long. And I just, it is hard for me to believe that one person can completely change what is a huge culture problem in these spaces.
- [55:50]
Mark Halperin
All right, so if you were both give very one piece of advice as hard as you think it'll be. What's one piece of advice? You'd Give her Megan.
- [55:58]
Megan McCain
Oh my gosh. I mean you. I would also tell her to like expand outside the free press bubble as well. Like I would just look for people in many different spaces to put on air that I don't even know what I would tell her to do because I just I respectful to her and this is not a knock at her. I think she is taking over as captain of the Titanic. I, I don't have a lot of faith. This is.
- [56:27]
Mark Halperin
All right, Ben, one piece of advice for Barry.
- [56:29]
Ben Ferguson
I'd have two One, hire like five conservatives so that you're not a token and they better be people that actually like Donald Trump has talked to and knows not people that you claim are conservative. Like you need five real conservatives so they're not an island by themselves. And number two, I would go in in the news divisions and hire real journalists and get rid of your biased fake journalists that are there. I'd also make sure you send somebody the White House that is a straight up and down journalist. I don't care if there are 70 or, or 21. Someone that can reset for you because that's part of your biggest issue.
- [57:05]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, all right, good advice. All right, now we fix that. Let's fix the Democratic Party.
- [57:09]
Ben Ferguson
That's impossible. But keep going.
- [57:10]
Mark Halperin
You know, just in the last week you've had Chris Hayes say the problem with the Democrats is they don't have enough like podcasts. They're not talking to people where they are. You had Joe Klein saying the problem is the party's too culturally liberal and until they fix that on a range of issues, trans immigration, etc. They can't get it right yet. Kamala Harris saying a bunch of stuff I don't totally understand. But, but blaming to some extent Joe Biden for not fixing his policies. And of course it's all in the context of some Democrats just saying, well, if Joe Biden hadn't hadn't run for reelection, we would have beaten Trump and just sort of blame me on that idiosyncratic personal decision. The DNC is working on this report. Big post election analysis, lots of controversy even before he comes out about are they going to consider some of these factors related to Biden Harris? Are they going to think more structural? And then a lot of my most sophisticated friends in the party say that the real problems relate to things like just infrastructure, like they don't know how to turn out the vote, they don't know how to do voter registration. And that's not the only problem. But it's a big problem. So, Megan, if you were, if you were the staff director of a big postmortem from 24 for the DNC, what are the elements you'd be looking into, looking at to say here's the problem and then there's where we need to solve for a solution?
- [58:26]
Megan McCain
I have a friend who has run for Congress unsuccessfully a few times. And his take on this I always thought was interesting is that like, you can't just be the party of women and like, you know, trans voters and whatever and then tell people. I think actually Van Jones said this one time too, like, you can't tell people to get the hell out and they're all problematic and awful and then be surprised when they leave through the door. They have to get just some normal people representing them. And I just feel like so many of the Democrats in power speak like they're in a focus group or a political science class at Yale and they don't understand. Like, even I had a commentator on my show last week where she was saying that, you know, the trans bathroom issue is an 8020 losing issue. Even if this is like your moral high ground, it is a wildly unpopular policy standpoint. And the fact that so many Democrats are still like, this is the Hill I'm going to die on forever, okay? I don't make the rules. Politics is a game of addition and it's about numbers. It's about getting people to like you, then you're going to lose. And the thing I don't understand is like, I think that actually the majority of Democrat voters would either sit and, and yell about how Republicans are racist and we're awful and we're, you know, Trump's Hitler and he's a king and all this stuff. Than actually do the hard work that takes discipline and focus of getting the right kind of candidates in the right kind of districts and then actually voting for them instead of having this weird people purity test. Like, if you want to put Mamdani's and his disciples all across the country and run them in every races, that's fine. But let me tell you something, like Tucson, Arizona is not Manhattan. Like, it's not going to work everywhere. And I just think that Democrats are like, and this isn't all of them. It's like the ones leading the party, I think they're really like, I think they're like spoiled brats that don't see the forest for the trees. Even like Karine Jean Pierre was on Colbert last night and like basically saying like, she never saw any problems with biden like, think Democrats just, like, lie to themselves about reality and the reality of the country. And they're so frustrated that more people are interested what Joe Rogan has to say than, you know, I don't any. Chris Hayes.
- [60:24]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, Ben. One of the big problems I've talked about, and I'm curious your perspective on this, again, be in the mindset of actually wanting to help the Democratic Party solve their problems. They're so wedded to their addiction to favorable coverage from the liberal media.
- [60:38]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Mark Halperin
That it doesn't force them to change. They're still enabled on. On. On immigration, they're still enabled on trans. They're still enabled on crime, where they're in their world, in the blue media that they consume. Not just msnbc, but the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press is telling them, Trump's wrong, you're right. And the base is telling them the same thing. So they get this information feedback loop. And as long as they're addicted to that, they're never going to accept the reality, which is, ask your own Pollster, it's 80, 20 against you, and you're just listening to the 20. How do they break out of that?
- [61:13]
Ben Ferguson
Look, I think one of the things they just have to do is police their own party better. That's what's gotten them off the rails now. And so Mandani and the AOCs and the no Kings dictators of this rally are holding the Democratic Party hostage. I think a great example is what you're witnessing right now with the government shutdown. Chuck Schumer could not work on the government until after getting it reopened, until after the no Kings rally. And they had to show up and they had to go in with the crazies and. And they had to act like this was something that they were involved in or they lost their street cred. So you got to sometimes just like, say, no, we're in charge. We're not going to let the kids run the asylum, and we're going to be realistic. I also think part of it's just like they have bad policies. Like, right now, they're out there fighting criminals, being caught in cities that are extremely dangerous. My hometown of Memphis, Tennessee, right now is a great example of that. You're out there screaming, you don't want the government to arrest people who've had 580 felons that have been arrested in Memphis, for example, in the last basically months since they went in there and started getting them off the streets. You can now go back down to Bill street at night. Because the National Guards there, like Memphians, who are a liberal in a liberal city, are in favor of this now because they're realizing, like, wow, not everyone's getting shot every day. And so when you're out there saying that this is terrible and you're fighting against law and order, you're going to keep losing. So I don't know if you can help the Democratic Party at this point, because I don't think they can help themselves. I think they're in the Civil war. I think they're filled with Marxist socialists and communists that they did not police well, and now they've taken over, and that's why no one really knows what they believe in. Mandani, I guess, is their biggest new face. He's the face of the Democratic Party, whether you like it or not right now. Good luck with it.
- [62:57]
Megan McCain
Yeah. There's also a problem, I think, with young people, like, young men in particular. I was talking to a friend of mine who works in education, and she was like, you cannot believe the amount of maga, Charlie Kirk, like, all the stuff I'm seeing. And I was like. Because it has become, like, uncool for young men. Like, you don't want to be part of this. Like, you know. You know, respectfully. But there's, like, group of people who are, like, beta and telling men that they're like, you know, there's something wrong with you if you're just simply a white male existing. And I saw a clip of Jon Stewart recently where he was yelling at, like, republicans don't own patriotism, and you don't own the military, and you don't own, you know, like, a love of country. But my response to Jon Stewart is, then why do people think that? Because perspective is the only thing that matters in politics. Why do people think that you hate America? Why do people think that you're unpatriotic? And again, most liberals I know do not have the kind of, like, American pride that conservatives do. That's anecdotal. Maybe there are some that do. But, like, I have yet to, like, see a liberal who probably be comfortable having a flag behind them when they're giving an interview. And I think that's a problem, because I do not think that the vast majority of the American people hate this country. I think people are smart and know that, like, it's a blessing to live here. That's why so many people want to, you know, come here and sometimes die trying to get here. So it's like they're. They're uptight they. They seem to be, like, deeply unmasculine. They're not patriotic and they're okay with crime and flirting with policies that I.
- [64:23]
Ben Ferguson
Consider like, 52% tax rate in New York City. Like, what world are you living in when that's what the Democratic Party is having to defend today? Is over 50% of your money going to the government that is just not going to win.
- [64:35]
Megan McCain
Can I say one last thing? And I forgot his name, but you will know it. Ben. There's a man that's going to. I believe he's. He's not in Congress or some local representative that's flirting with the idea of running for Senate in Texas. And everyone is like, he's amazing. He's so smart.
- [64:47]
Ben Ferguson
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like the new Beto.
- [64:49]
Megan McCain
Yeah, he's Beto 3.0. And again, I'm like, I remember being flayed and it may have even happened like on your show. Mark saying that Tim Waltz made me uncomfortable. That he was weirdest politician I'd ever seen.
- [65:02]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [65:03]
Megan McCain
Believe one thing that was coming out of his mouth that I thought the camel.
- [65:05]
Mark Halperin
You were like, Nostradamus.
- [65:07]
Megan McCain
I hated him. I was like, he makes me so uncomfortable. And now.
- [65:12]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, everybody. And I was like, you're ahead of your time.
- [65:15]
Megan McCain
Because I. Because he's like, I'm a real man. And I remember trying to load a shotgun. He's like, shells are falling everywhere. It's like, just be who you are. But none of you guys are tough.
- [65:24]
Ben Ferguson
Go back to chest feeding. Like Mayor Pete, how many.
- [65:27]
Mark Halperin
How many Democrats have been elected president since Carter?
- [65:31]
Ben Ferguson
You got Clinton, Obama and.
- [65:33]
Mark Halperin
Three.
- [65:34]
Megan McCain
Three.
- [65:34]
Mark Halperin
Three. Okay, so two of them Democrat Republicans like to run down before they won. But they. But smart Republicans were like, yeah, those guys are superstars. Those guys are generational talents and they could win.
- [65:46]
Ben Ferguson
No one beaten Obama, period.
- [65:48]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Didn't. Didn't say that. Didn't say that about Biden. But he won on his third time. For all the factors we know. Is there anybody even got the potential who's talked about as a 2028 Democrat candidate who, who has that. Who has that generational talent where smart Republicans are privately saying if that guy or that gal runs, they're going to be formidable? Is there anybody who fits that category, even potentially?
- [66:12]
Ben Ferguson
I don't think we know who the. The big candidate's going to be for the Democratic Party in the next presidential.
- [66:17]
Mark Halperin
Election, but people were saying this about Clinton, Obama, literally when they were in college.
- [66:22]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah. I mean, if you think it's aoc for example, then maybe it is, because maybe that's the Democratic Party now and that's where they want to go. Maybe it's AOC with a mandani. But, like, I have a hard time believing that the majority of the country, 50 plus 1%, are going to be like, yeah, I want to pay 52% tax and I want to abolish the police. Like, and I stand with terrorists in the Middle East. I just don't think that we're going there. And proof of it is Donald Trump just getting elected. So right now, as a Republican, I actually think the midterms could be really good for us. And I've never said that in a midterm when you're in power like this, I actually think we could have gains, which would be shocking based on political history. And I think the Democratic Party is still going to be in a civil war probably going into the next presidential. Because even if you do get a sane, stable presidential candidate, I think you got to offer the VP job to somebody like a mandani or an aoc. I don't think you can win without the crazy of your party showing up. And so then you're still tied to all these extremist views.
- [67:27]
Mark Halperin
Megan, is there.
- [67:28]
Megan McCain
I mean, there's no one that I have seen that I think. And I also think, again, Democrats, Republicans, for better. For. I mean, for better and for worse. Like, we are like, vicious, tribal. Like, if you don't like a candidate, like, again, look what happened to Mitt Romney. Like, they don't last very long and, like, they will be out. Democrats are like, Like, I had someone recently. It was like, Cory Booker is going to, you know, now that he's engaged, he has a chance of being president. I was like, I will be president before Cory Booker will be president, and I am not running for president. But it's like, I don't understand. Like, like, why are you lying to yourselves? These are not minimal candidates. These are not people that can take it home. These are not people that are, like, inspiring in any way. And it's not that I don't, you know, we don't live in a fantasy land. It's not like that figure can't come come up in one way or another. But I just think, like, Democrats seem to really, like you said, I think they're in more of a culture and media bubble than I ever even realized because they're just, like, sitting around being like, oh, this is an incredible candidate. Yes, for you. But again, there are some people in politics that, like, of course, I've had like long issues with Trump. I was very aware from, for a very long time. This is a man that can win. This is a man that can win the White House. And at a certain point, 90% of Republicans I know we care about winning. We don't want. I'll tell you what, Democrats don't mind losing.
- [68:41]
Mark Halperin
I'll tell you what an undercovered story is. I met a guy in the airport yesterday. He recognized me. We had a mutual friend. He's running, he's primary, a longtime Democratic office holder. And I said, what, what, you know, what are your differences with that person? How are you going to beat an incumbent? And, and his whole thing was he's not tough enough on Trump. He doesn't hate Trump enough. He doesn't orient his public statements and public record, public activities enough against Trump. And the undercovered story is there are going to be a lot of brutal primaries next year in the Democratic Party. Some, some without incumbents, but some with incumbents where they're going to try to take people out. And again, this goes back to the energy in the party is on how much can you hate Trump? Not what kind of ideas you can have, not how can we dominate the most electable candidate. But it's a contest to say who can say the worst things about Trump.
- [69:26]
Ben Ferguson
Exactly. He's Hitler. He's a nar. He's Marxist. Yeah, it's all these, it's all these name calling. That's not a policy.
- [69:32]
Megan McCain
And I think in 28, no matter who is the nominee, what do you do then? Because it'll probably be like a Rubio or a Vance or someone like that. Like, are you going to like that? The reason why that kind of rhetoric always rings so hollow to me is I remember when my dad was called Hitler. I remember when Romney was called Hitler. Like all Republicans are Hitler too.
- [69:50]
Ben Ferguson
If you're running for president and you're Republican, you're Hitler. You're the front.
- [69:53]
Mark Halperin
Right.
- [69:54]
Megan McCain
So that's why I think, and I think a lot of Americans understand that and realize that. So it's not something that'll work long term. And again, respectful to your friend, I don't know this person. But like, it's a lazy, coddled, undisciplined way to run for office.
- [70:08]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [70:08]
Megan McCain
Find out what people actually care about. And again, the thing about politics, you guys know better than anybody. It's like, it's not instant gratification. This is long term, you know, marathon, not a sprint. These are things that take strategy and discipline and timing and working your ass off. And I think a lot of Democrats are really lazy and just want to tweet their way to Congress.
- [70:27]
Mark Halperin
As the aforementioned Bill Clinton would say, they're telling me we got to quit. I'd like to talk more about Halloween, but we have to go. Meghan McCain and Ben Ferguson, ladies and gentlemen of the audience and of the jury, if you liked what you heard, believe it or not, you can hear from these two multiple times a week on their own, unencumbered by my silly questions. So if you'd like that, go. Go to the various places you can watch these programs and watch away. Thank you both. Grateful to you for being here.
- [70:54]
Megan McCain
Happy to always give you my China analysis. I know that's what everyone always comes to me for.
- [70:57]
Mark Halperin
Thank you, U.S. sino recognized expert. Thank you both. Happy Halloween.
- [71:03]
Megan McCain
Happy Halloween.
- [71:04]
Mark Halperin
All right, that's it for today's program. We'll be back on Thursday with a brand new episode. Not a clip show, not a holiday show, just a regular one. Make sure you subscribe and download Nextup. Wherever you get your podcast, Watch us on YouTube. Stay with us twice a week so you always know what's coming. Next up.