Trump's GOP Grip Costing the Midterms + "Paralyzed" Democrats

Summary

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Next Up with Mark Halperin

Episode: Trump's GOP Grip Costing the Midterms + "Paralyzed" Democrats

Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Mark Halperin
Guests: Joe Cunningham (former Democratic Congressman, author), Beverly Hallberg (Republican strategist)

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Episode Overview

This milestone 100th episode of “Next Up” delivers a sharp, multi-faceted analysis of the week’s primary election results, focusing most intently on Donald Trump’s dominant influence within the Republican Party and the internal struggles and branding crisis facing the Democratic Party. Mark Halperin, in his signature nonpartisan and pragmatic tone, kicks off with a reported monologue breaking down Trump’s role in recent GOP victories and the risks stemming from his controversial endorsements. The panel segment features South Carolina’s Joe Cunningham and Republican strategist Beverly Hallberg as they dissect the consequences for both parties, campaign strategies for Texas’ pivotal Senate race, and the enduring challenges Democrats face in the South. Cunningham’s new book also serves as a springboard for discussing how Democrats can reconnect with voters and reclaim lost trust.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Monologue: The Meaning of the Election Results

[03:00–18:00]
Speaker: Mark Halperin

• Trump’s Republican Party:
  • Trump dominates the GOP, demonstrated by his capacity to sway primary races and eliminate intra-party dissent.
  • “Donald Trump may not be able to defeat Iran right now, and he may not be able to beat the Democrats in November in the midterms, but on Tuesday, he proved he can beat his own Republican Party, and he's been doing it now for over a decade.” (07:38)
  • Trump’s endorsement is the “single most powerful force in the party” — nearly all 37 Trump-endorsed candidates won their primaries this week.
• Impact on Establishment Republicans:
  • Endorsing Ken Paxton against incumbent John Cornyn in Texas signifies Trump’s willingness to buck establishment preferences, possibly at the cost of general election electability.
  • “It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Trump Inc. And those who are part of the firmament, who oppose him... they run the risk of being drummed out of the party.” (09:57)
• Risks & Fallout:
  • Purging moderates could backfire: Lame-duck Republicans have already begun undermining Trump’s legislative priorities, shrinking Senate Republican unity.
  • Trump’s choices may put safe seats at risk due to candidate baggage or loss of suburban support.
• Contrast with Democratic Troubles:
  • GOP base “enjoys the Trump show,” but GOP elites are fatigued; no clear Trump counterweight.
  • For Democrats: The challenge is bigger—party is often seen as merely “against Trump,” lacking positive, resonant messaging.
  • Quote: “This isn’t about ideology… it’s about a reality show franchise, a loyalty to a man who they believe is their leader.” (11:56)
• Open Questions for Listeners:
  • Is Trump’s dominance real momentum, or an “optical illusion” setting the party up for a fall in November?

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2. Panel: Texas Senate Race, Trumpism, and Democratic Challenges

[18:00–34:14]
Speakers: Mark Halperin (B), Beverly Hallberg (F), Joe Cunningham (D)

GOP Analysis:

• Trump's Power in Primaries:
  • Hallberg: “37 endorsements by Trump were all winners for him, no losers, I think is a big statement. So a Trump endorsement and the Republican Party still goes a long way.” (18:46)
• Texas Senate Race – Paxton v. Cornyn:
  • Hallberg expresses party concerns: Paxton’s scandals (felony indictment, messy divorce) make the seat vulnerable.
  • “This is a battle between the establishment and MAGA… I like more of the rules and the traditions… keeping the filibuster protects America as a whole.” (20:30)

Democratic Perspective and Hopes:

• Silver Lining for Dems:
  • Cunningham: “Probably maybe the best thing for Democrats was Ken Paxton, because it creates that opening in Senate in Texas… a very loud and clear message that the Republican Party is… the party of Trump.” (21:52)
  • Draws parallel to his own win in a Trump-energized district, implying Trump-backed candidates, though dominant in primaries, can be weaker with general electorates.
• Dem Messaging in Texas:
  • Cunningham on Talarico’s strategy: “The message has to be a hell of a lot broader than [anti-Trump]… tap into that consumer anger that exists right now because a lot of people are hurting… can’t afford homes, rent, groceries.” (25:00)
  • Both agree Dems should focus on affordability, not just negative campaigning.
  • Hallberg calls Talarico’s positions “very left,” but sees high gas prices and Iran stalemate as “a gift for Dems to run on the cost of gas.” (27:39)

Campaign Tactics & 2026 Convention:

• Summer Campaign Activities:
  • Both suggest campaigns save resources for the fall, but agree that groundwork and organization are key in the off-season.
  • Cunningham (with humor): “If [Lincoln] is going to spend four hours chopping down a tree, he’s going to spend three of those hours sharpening the ax.” (28:52)
• Republican Convention Advantage:
  • Unique Trump-centered convention anticipated — press coverage could generate critical momentum.
  • Hallberg: “It also gives an opportunity for these candidates to be on the same stage as the president… nothing that can hurt from it, and it can only help.” (31:18)
• Speakers & Influence:
  • Rubio and J.D. Vance named by panelists as strong rhetorical forces.
  • Cunningham stresses “bringing in cultural figures” and reaching outside of politics — Democrats should learn from how Republicans appeal culturally.

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3. Deep Dive: Joe Cunningham on the Future of the Democratic Party

[36:32–58:44]
Speakers: Mark Halperin, Joe Cunningham

Cunningham’s Story & Credibility:

• Roots and Independence:
  • Southern Democrat, child of working-class family, “lifelong Democrat from the South.”
  • “I was the first Democrat to come out publicly and say that President Biden should not have run for reelection… because all Democratic voters were telling me the same thing privately, but would not say it publicly.” (37:50)
  • Repeatedly bucked the party line, e.g., refusing to back Nancy Pelosi for Speaker ("wasn't a slight at Pelosi personally, but about a new generation of leadership").

Why Dems Lost Touch—and How to Get It Back:

• Reclaiming the Center:
  • Halperin: Clinton’s centrism was key to victory in the ’90s — can Democrats return to it with the leftward pressure of today’s national party?
  • Cunningham argues the perception of extreme positions is more acute than the reality; most Dems are not as left as their loudest figures or the opposition claim.
    • “A lot of Democrats have become paralyzed of being called some form of ist or ism… we should be looking at this pragmatically.” (41:22)
    • The party needs to “stop letting everyone define who you are and what your party’s opinion is.”
• Internal Party Fear:
  • Describes a culture of “private club with a velvet rope,” fear of dissent, and social/political penalties for public disagreement.
  • “You lose friends, you lose donors, the invites dry up… There’s real political blowback.” (44:29)
• Cultural Disconnect:
  • Explains how “ivory tower elites” are dictating party discourse, disconnected from the practical needs of rural and working-class Americans.
    • “The far left and the national Democrats chase these fringe issues and… cram solutions into corners where no problems exist… at the expense of so many more.” (45:16)

Key Values and Messages for Democrats:

• Economic Populism & Big Ideas:
  • Cites FDR's New Deal and the TVA—a legacy of big, practical liberalism — as what drew his family and others to the party.
    • “The Democratic Party… was about big ideas. It was about bold vision. It was about lifting up working class people.” (49:20)
  • Argues against wasted time “attacking [Trump] instead of attacking the problems that are facing Americans.”
• Principles That Still Matter:
  • “Personal freedoms… Roe v. Wade was the correct law… free and fair elections… only one party put a bill on [the floor] to ban gerrymandering.” (51:38)
  • Stresses party loyalty based on principle but critiques its drift away from being a “big tent.”

Target Audience for Change:

• Book for Frustrated Dems, Centrists, and even Republicans:
  • “Any Democrat that may be frustrated with how things went in 2024… or on the coast who may not understand things in the south.”
  • “I think Republicans should want a strong Democratic Party because it creates competition.” (53:05)

Political Lessons from Obama and Trump:

• Obama: Masterful oratory and genuine connection, "but you can’t fake authenticity."
• Trump: “Messaging is very simple and it connects with voters… he fights like hell for what he wants.” (56:29)
  • Dems can learn from his relentless conviction and willingness to challenge the system for his agenda.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Hold:
  “He has not merely influenced the Republican Party over the last 10 years. He’s repoed it.” (09:45, Halperin)
• On Intra-GOP Dynamics:
  “Quietly Republicans, they fear, they fear that if they cross Donald Trump, he will come after them.” (09:57, Halperin)
• On Democrats’ Challenges:
  “The Democratic Party… has become more of a private club with a velvet rope instead of just an open door. We've gone from the big tent party to the small umbrella party.” (43:42, Cunningham)
• On General Election Strategy:
  “Going after Trump directly, yes, it motivates the base… but lift your eyes up, you know, higher to the horizon as to what’s ahead… going after the greed that exists in these different industries that are driving the affordability issue.” (25:00, Cunningham)
• Cultural Disconnect:
  “Ivory tower elites… think up these solutions in Harvard and Yale, and they think they work on Main street… that elitism… has created such a canyon between the national Democrats and normal voters who feel like they're being spoken down to.” (45:16, Cunningham)
• On Campaign Tactics:
  “If [Lincoln] is going to spend four hours chopping down a tree, he’s going to spend three of those hours sharpening the ax.” (28:52, Cunningham)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:00–18:00 Reported Monologue: GOP results and Trump’s intra-party dominance
• 18:00–34:14 Panel: Cunningham & Hallberg on Texas, election strategies, conventions
• 36:32–58:44 Cunningham Interview: Democratic identity crisis, Southern Dem perspective, lessons from his book

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Conclusion

This episode is both a stark diagnosis of the current American political ecosystem and a lively, practical discussion of what lies ahead for both parties. It documents how Trump’s iron grip on the GOP shapes candidates and policy, while also drawing out the Democratic Party’s struggle to escape “anti-Trump” branding and become again a party of big, relevant ideas. Joe Cunningham’s real-life experience and willingness to challenge his own party’s orthodoxy make for a candid, valuable blueprint for how Democrats might become “America’s party” again—if they are willing to listen, change, and fight for relevance outside the progressive coastal bubble.

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Transcript

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hey, everybody, welcome in Mark Calpers here. This is next. Up with me, Mark Calpert. I'm the editor in chief of Live interactive video platform two way, your host here for everything that's coming. Next up, major milestone here at NextUp for those nexters who've been with us from the start, happy anniversary 100th episode today. We're happy to be with you and proud of the program and grateful to you for watching and for listening. We're celebrating here as we always do. No fluff, no partisan nonsense, just cold, hard reality of American politics and life. And again, always having our eyes up on the horizon to try to tell you what's coming next up, here's what we have on our special 100th episode. First in my report of Monologue, I'll talk about the election results from this week. I've been talking to smart folks in politics, Democrats, Republicans and other folks, analysts about what do the results mean not just of the election on Tuesday, but President Trump's decision to endorse in that Texas Senate primary runoff between John Cornyn and Attorney General Paxton. We'll talk about that then. Joe Cunningham will be here, former Democratic congressman from South Carolina. He's got a new book out called Life of the Party. How Democrats lost America's trust and how they can win it back. This is an age old problem. I've been covering it my whole career. Book is out this week. Congratulations to Joe. And it's a, it's a great opportunity if you're a Democrat, to hear from somebody who really understands what the problems for the party are now can't just be, as Joe has said, the party that opposes Trump. It's got to stand for things that people accept and improve its brand. So excited to talk to Joe about what the party's getting wrong now, how they can rebuild trust and what this means to the balance of power in the country. As I always say, I'm not here rooting for either side. I'm just here to try to help you understand what's next stop. And Joe has a vision for that. Joe also will be part of a conversation we're going to have with Beverly Hallberg, one of our favorites, president of District Media Group. We're going to talk about the election results this week and about what may happen in that special Texas race in the general election. Before all that, though, before our guests are here, let me start with you on my reported monologue about this question of what the meaning is of Tuesday. You had primaries in half dozen states, big focus on Georgia and of course, a big focus on Kentucky, where President Trump targeted the Republican congressman there, Thomas Massie. He posed him for a bunch of reasons, but I would say primarily because Massie doesn't vote with the president and Donald Trump doesn't believe in allowing slights to go unnoticed. In the case of Massie, this is a Republican seat. The guy who beat Massey in the primary, who the president endorsed, will be the congressman, almost certainly. But we're going to break down that race, the Georgia race, the Texas situation, try to give you a sense of again, what it all means. What is the significance of this for what's next up in the runoffs, what's next up in the general election, but also just in our politics generally. So first thing I want to tell you is that these elections matter. Donald Trump may not be able to defeat Iran right now. He may not be able to beat Democrats in November, but on Tuesday, what he did prove was that he can beat his own party. He can beat the Republican Party because he owns the Republican Party. All right. Before all that, though, we're going to take a quick break and right after this, next up, my reported monologue on the meaning of this week's elections. That's next up from FOCUS features. And the producers of darkest hour comes the new movie, the Untold Story of D day. In the 72 hours leading up to the largest seaborne invasion in history, General Dwight D. Eisenhower faced an impossible decision that would determine the fate of the war. As allied forces prepared to land, two massive storms converge over Normandy behind closed doors. With the clock ticking down, General Eisenhower must decide send 300,000 men into nature's unforgiving fury or delay and risk losing the war itself. There's no safe option, only consequences. One decision would change the world forever. On May 29, experience a powerful and inspiring story of courage, sacrifice, and the mission that gave the free world hope. Starring Andrew Scott, Brendan Fraser, Kerry Condon, and Damian Lewis. Pressure is filled with thrilling tension from beginning to end. And without a doubt, it must be seen on the big screen. Pressure the Untold True Story of D Day is rated to PG 13, may be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters May 29th. All right, next up, I'm going to break down for you what happened this week in politics, particularly Tuesday's elections, but also President Trump's decision to endorse against the incumbent John Cornyn in the Texas Senate runoff and to support Paxton in that race. Donald Trump may not be able to defeat Iran right now, and he may not be able to beat the Democrats in November in the midterms, but on Tuesday, he proved he can beat his own Republican Party, and he's been doing it now for over a decade. Donald Trump is a great political chess player. He's a great blackjack table player. He's got a kind of a hybrid thing going. He cheats politics like both chess and blackjack. And Tuesday night, he took the risks he normally takes and he won beating Massie. Congressman Massie in Kentucky was a big deal for the White House, for the political operation and for the president himself. He also, though, besides beating Massey in Kentucky, his candidates who he endorsed in Georgia, in the governor's race and in Alabama, both won to advance to runoffs. And. And then he made that big decision in Texas come up something of a surprise to go against the establishment of the Republican Party, John Cornyn's fellow Republican senators, and to endorse in the runoff, which is just a week away now, some people think it's possible Cornyn could still win that race. But most people I've talked to in the day since the endorsement, they believe Paxton will be the nominee. In fact, some believe that private polling the president learned about suggested Paxton was going to win anyway. And the president's trying to get in front of that parade. And of course, Paxton's more his kind of guy. He's been more loyal to the President. He's more maga. So that endorsement and the President's ability and willingness to endorse a contested runoff against the party establishment from John Thune on down, proves once again, as if we needed more proof that this is a decade on Donald Trump's Republican Party. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Trump Inc. And those who are part of the firmament, who oppose him like Massie, like Cornyn has, at times, they run the risk of being drummed out of the party. Quiet Republican, quietly Republicans, they fear, they fear that if they cross Donald Trump, he will come after them. And that's why he's had so much discipline and so few people crossing him. Even when he does things that a lot of people in the party don't like. The anti Trump part of the Republican Party, including members of Congress, they know there's no one close to having being a counterweight to Trump in the party. He has not merely influenced the Republican Party over the last 10 years. He's repoed it. He's made it his own thing. The broader winning streak he's on right now politically, even as he struggles with dealing with Iran, even as the poll numbers the President has are horrible and horrible poll numbers in terms of what Americans think about his job approval, what Americans think about how he's handling the economy. Normally that weakens a politician. Donald Trump is on an incredible run. He decided he wanted to defeat legislators in Indiana, Republican legislators who wouldn't support his efforts to redistrict. He went out to defeat him and he defeated almost all of them. Okay. Then in South Carolina, he wanted redistricting once again. He, he, he pressured a governor there who was reluctant to do it. He's on track there. He got a victory in the Supreme Court on the Voting Rights Act. He got a victory in Virginia on redistricting when the state Supreme Court there threw out Democrats multimillion dollar effort to try to wring some seats out of there last weekend. Bill Cassidy, the Republican senator who, who voted to convict Donald Trump in one of his impeachment trials, he got beaten. He got beaten so badly that he didn't even make the runoff. An incumbent senator doesn't even make the runoff because Donald Trump told the voters vote against him. There's other factors, just as there are other factors in the Massey race. But in the end, there's one factor. If Donald Trump kills the electorate in a primary, do what I say, they, they Almost always do it. Almost always do it. And this isn't about ideology, ladies and gentlemen. This is about a reality show franchise, a, a loyalty to a man who they believe is their leader. And that audience loyalty to him from the voters is extremely, extremely powerful. He won the nomination in 2024 for president after he had been written off. And now if you want to win a Republican primary, whether you're an incumbent or not, it's clear that if Donald Trump says vote for that person, the voters love him and they will vote for him. Now, contrast that. Contrast the Republican voters who've gone his way almost uniformly since 2016 with the Democrats, the elites in the Republican Party, the folks in the dominant media, they're exhausted by Trump. They're exhausted with him. They want him off the stage. And they're tired of things like the ballroom. They're tired of things like some of the ways that Trump families enrich themselves. They're tired of Trump demanding the Senate pass things. The votes aren't there. The voters aren't exhausted, though they enjoy the Trump show, they enjoy watching Donald Trump political day treat, are always looking for the next move, the next act, the next thing to talk about. They enjoy it and they follow what he says. Now, the victories that the President's had, some of them are unalloyed goods for him, but some of them do come with potential risks. For instance, he's now got two more United States senators, one for sure, two probably. One Bill Cassidy, who now is a lame duck, and one John Cornyn, who likely will lose the runoff and will be a lame duck as well. They both have a lot of beefs with Donald Trump and freed from the need to avoid getting risking Donald Trump's ire, they may start voting against Donald Trump. And the Senate margin's not big, that Republicans have 53 senators. And if you count Lisa Murkowski, you count Susan Collins, you count Mitch McConnell, you count Rand Paul. It's going to be difficult. Even on votes that require only 50, let alone getting 60 senators. It's going to be difficult. We already saw Bill Cassidy since he lost his primary. He's already. He flipped and voted to restrain the President on Iran. So these senators have some revenge incentives, just as Donald Trump did, but they also have principled objections to Donald Trump, which they previously stifled, but now they're in all likelihood going to be willing to let, let flower. So he's got some agenda problems. And then in Texas, where the President decided to endorse against John Cornyn, a lot of Republicans don't like or personally do like John Cornyn. And they don't particularly want to have to spend the money they believe will be required to make sure Paxton beats James Talarico. Why are they concerned about that? Well, Paxton has some ethical issues. Most of you know about that. He's got a lot of baggage. But he also is going to have struggle to win some of the establishment support that was going to be there for Cornyn. Maybe he's not going to be as strong with suburban voters. We shall see. We shall see. But there's a capacity of the president here to get his person to win and to not let Cornyn, who hasn't supported him as much as Paxson, the media class, the political class, they're in disbelief about this choice. A lot of Republican senators are in disbelief. They believe that this is going to lead inexorably to a collapse in Texas. The president doesn't think so. The President doesn't think so. The president thinks that, and he said it today, he thinks that Paxton will be just fine. He'll be just fine. The Republican voters keep renewing their contract with Donald Trump. They keep signing on and saying, yeah, that's the guy we want to let us lead. That's the guy we want to lead us. We'll see what happens in the general election. Right now, the president's polling is so bad that it's going to be difficult for Republicans to salvage a lot of places. But there's time for it to change. Donald Trump may not be able to beat Iran. Republicans are hoping he does. He, he may be wiped out in the midterms, but the Republicans who underestimate him, the Republicans who look at the decisions he made about going after an incumbent or House member in Kentucky, going after endorsing against a Republican senator in Texas, they look at that and they say, well, that's foolish. That's a waste of time. Donald Trump looks at it as a validation of his connection to the voters who have taken him on a 10 year ride and the ability to send a message to other Republicans not to cross him. Now, we'll see what happens if he does get crossed in his legislative agenda. We'll see if some of the candidates he's touted end up losing in the fall. But for Donald Trump, this is the way he does business. He goes by the dictum, what's mine is mine and what yours will negotiate over. And for now, when Donald Trump has the energy of the MAGA movement even in the general election, as we saw when he was on the ballot, in 2016, 2024 does pretty well. We'll see if these midterms are different. But underestimate Donald Trump at your peril. And Republicans who decide they want to cross Donald Trump understand now what can happen to him. All right, that's my reported monologue about what happened in this week's elections and Trump's controversial decision to endorse in Texas. Let me know what you think. Is Donald Trump on a political roll right now or is all just an intra maga party that's creating an optical illusion and he's due for a political comeuppance in November? Send me your thoughts. Write me an email. Send it to nextuphalperinmail.com don't forget, if you want the full visual experience of the program, watch us on YouTube. There's bonus content here. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube.com NextUp Palmerin and if you're listening to us on the move on the podcast version, by all means subscribe there on your favorite podcast platform and make sure you tell all your friends to become Nexters and listen and watch as well. Do me a favor on the podcast. Also turn on your automatic downloads that will guarantee you'll hear the program as soon as it drops, as soon as it is available. All right, we're going to take a brief break. And then next up, a panel with the former South Carolina congressman and author Joe Cunningham. His new book, Life of the How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Could Win It Back, joined by Republican strategist Beverly Hallberg, president of the District Media Group. Joe and Beverly are next up. Are you being lied to? They tell you to defer paying your taxes by saving in a 401k or an IRA because you'll retire in a lower tax bracket. 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[B]

All right, next up and joining me now, you can call them smarty smarty pants or just extremely smart. But whatever you call them, you can also call them this. Former South Carolina congressman Joe Cunningham, author of a group great new book called Life of the the Party, How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Can Win It Back. It's a cliffhanger, I'll tell you that. Otherwise, Joe and I are going to discuss it a little bit. And Beverly Halberg is here, president of District Media Group. She is also a Republican strategist. Thanks both of you for being here.

[F]

Thanks.

[B]

Grateful to you, Beverly. As you soak in and luxuriate in the results of the elections this week and President Trump's decision to endorse in the Texas Senate race, what's your, what's your single biggest takeaway from all this? What is it?

[F]

What is, where do we begin?

[B]

It was the big nine, the big Zen meaning of it all for you.

[F]

Well, from a very broad 30,000 foot view, look at this all the fact that the 37 endorsements by Trump were all winners for him, no losers, I think is a big statement. So a Trump endorsement and the Republican Party still goes a long way. Now we're going to have to see how that translates into midterms, where in general election his support among independents obviously isn't as high as it is with Republicans. So we'll see how that translates. And that of course takes us To Texas. I'm not happy with this move. For the president to endorse Kim Paxton over John Cornyn, the fear is that this means it's a Republican seat that's lost in the Senate. We're going to have to see how far Trump's endorsement goes with Ken Paxton, who his. His backstory is filled with scandal. So there are a lot of issues, even though he does tend to vote with the president so far often. So Trump just looked at this as somebody who supported him. I think he's a conflicted candidate, to put it mildly. And I'm worried about a lost Senate seat because of it. So in general, Trump in his picks, they work for President Trump, but we'll see what happens in midterms, which is where this really is going to get all panned out.

[B]

Beverly, before I ask Joe the same 30,000 or 80,000 foot question I just asked you about Texas, I know some people in your party are openly upset about the president endorsing not John Cornyn, the incumbent, but endorsing Paxton because of his controversial past and the belief that he's not going to be as electable in the general election. And some object because he's not the incumbent. And they believe it's important to support incumbents for you or for anyone else. You know, is there an ideological objection? Is there a competence objection? Is there something else? Or is it just really those two reasons?

[F]

It's. Well, there are two big issues with Kim Paxton. One is the fact that he has been indicted for security fraud. He did settle that situation, but also some recent issues when it comes to his marriage, where it came out that his wife has said she had biblical grounds for divorce. So in a state like Texas, there are some concerns how that's going to be portrayed for voters, but I really think that this is a battle between the establishment and MAGA in many, many respects. The Senate that is led by John Thune right now, the President isn't always happy with how things are run. I'm personally happy with Senator Thune. I am somebody who is one who says keep the filibuster, don't blow it up. But there is this blow it up model with how things are done in Congress these days, how the President wants things to be done. And Kim Paxton is going to be more of that person who's going to support the president on that. I like more of the rules and the traditions. You can call me a rhino if you want to, but I actually think keeping the filibuster protects America as a whole. So I view this as a battle between traditional conservatives and more of your populous maga.

[B]

Joe, just. Just in case it wasn't clear, Beverly is so establishment, she makes Mitt Romney look like a member of the Tea Party.

[F]

That's right.

[B]

She's just. She just wants tradition.

[F]

I like the filibuster. Call me crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Joe, what was the best thing that happened in Tuesday's elections for your party? What was the most promising thing that you saw?

[D]

I mean, look, the news was overshadowed by all the Republican victories in their primaries. Right. But I think probably maybe the best thing for Democrats was Ken Paxton, because it creates that opening in Senate in Texas, and it was. Is a very loud and clear message that the Republican Party is. Is the party of Trump and that, you know, with all his candidates winning. But, you know, this.

[B]

It's.

[D]

It's kind of. Yeah, it kind of calls back to 2018, when I ran in Trump's first midterm, and he endorsed at the last minute State Representative Katie Arrington here in South Carolina's 1st congressional district, and she edged out former Governor Mark Sanford. I think Mark was probably one of the first, and correct me if I'm wrong, but probably one of the first casualties, political casualties of the Trump world. And so, you know, but for Mark being knocked out of the primary, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have won that election, helped the Democrats flip the House. I don't think I could have beaten somebody like Mark Sanford in general election, but I haven't. You know, I can't go down all the list of candidates he endorsed. But imagine they're more extreme than some of the ones who can pull over independence that you might need in order to fight back against a midterm year like this when there's so much momentum behind Democrats.

[B]

Texas is one of many states in the south and the Southwest where the Republican Party just dominates. There's some local officials who are Democrats, but statewide in general, there's just not a lot of Southern Democrats left. And even in the House, with the exception of black Democrats, there aren't Hispanic Democrats. There just aren't a lot left.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, Mark, when I served in Congress, I think at one point, after Doug Jones, I think I was the only white Democrat in the Deep South. So it's an uphill battle, for sure.

[B]

And the Southwest, too, to some extent. So let's talk about Texas, because that's obviously the mega state of the south and the Southwest. Beverly, you prefer Cornyn to Paxton, but you prefer Paxton Wynn, the general. Correct?

[G]

Correct.

[F]

I mean, he's going against Talarico, who is not even, we can't say he's even a moderate Democrat, obviously very progressive left.

[B]

Yeah, I, I still skeptical that Talarico is going to win this race. And, and I'm skeptical that when, when Cornyn supporters say, oh, it's going to cost hundreds of millions more for Paxton, I just don't believe that for a variety of reasons. But let's talk about strategy. And, and someday, someday a Democrat will win statewide in Texas. I think it's been a while. I think my son's 9 years old. I think by the time he gets his PhD, maybe a Democrat will have won. But let's say it could be this year. Let's say Talarico could win. Joe, if you were a general strategist for the Talarico campaign, he's certainly vulnerable to a lot of liberal positions. You heard the president talk about that already this week. What would be your broad guidance to Talarico about how to win this race?

[D]

Well, not just Talarico, but any Democrat running in a competitive seat. You know, the Democratic Party, if you go out, I had this book launch last night, and I told them if you go out in the street and you grab any random person, you ask them what the Democratic Party stands for, they're going to say, oh, they're against Trump. You know, they're, they're anti Trump. And so the, the message has to be a hell of a lot broader than that because that's a drum that's been beaten over the last, you know, near decade, I guess. And it, where has it gotten us? But for President Trump being elected twice and so to broadening the message to look beyond Trump, to look beyond 2026, and, and, and even tap into that consumer anger that exists right now because a lot of people are hurting. They can't afford homes, they can't afford rent, they can't afford groceries. And so going after Trump directly, yes, it motivates base. The base, yes, it, you know, it drives small dollar donations. I've been there, I've seen it. But lift your eyes up, you know, higher to the horizon as to what's ahead and going after the greed that exists in these different industries that are driving the affordability issue.

[B]

Yeah, Joe, I promise we'll talk in great depth about the book and the general principles that you believe in in that specific race. Should Talarico's campaign be about Paxton's alleged corruption? Should it be about his personal life?

[D]

You know, the Democratic Party spent a lot of time talking about Trump in 2024. And people's minds were pretty well made up about Trump, who he is, even his good, even his faults, I think, I imagine I don't, I'm not a Texan, but I imagine there's been a lot of paid communications to drive home home the negatives as have ever been in Maine with Graham Platner as well. And people know all those and they, and they still support him after those stories. So I think at some point there has to be a different message as to what it is you're going to fight for and who it is you're, you're going to fight. And so that's again, I point out a lot of these things in the book, which we'll get to in the next segment. But I do think that spending more time as to what, what you want to accomplish for Texans is probably more of a winning message than continuing to go after your opponent's character.

[B]

Yeah, Beverly, I, I assume you're, I think I know what you're going to say. But, but is it the case that the Paxton campaign should just be about the liberal positions of the Democrat and say Texas, you've never, the modern era, at least you never elected anybody this liberal. Why start now?

[F]

Correct. When it comes to Talarico, he has so much on tape that shows his widely progressive views, very left wing and not in mainstream with Texas. So I think that that is the, the narrative that you take if you're Kim Paxton running against him. Of course, we don't know who's going to win the primary yet. Who knows, maybe Cornyn can actually win it. Well, we'll have to wait and see. But for Talarico and for Democrats, I think the message for them is going to be affordability. Even the president said today he spoke to reporters after speaking at the Coast Guard commencement. He said he's not worried about midterms in relation to the length of time of the Iranian war. So that's something that I thought he would have used the midterms as a reason to try to wrap up as quickly as possible. But I think he's going to be in this stalemate with Iran for a while until he probably needs to go through with more military action, gas prices going up. I just don't think it's going away anytime soon. It's going to run into midterms. And I think for Democrats, that's a gift for them to be able to run on the cost of gas.

[B]

Where do you stand, Joe, you first. Where do you stand on communicating with voters in an election year over the summer, is that something campaigns should do? Or when we get to mid late June, they should hibernate till the fall?

[D]

It's tough, Mark. I mean, it's like the doldrums of campaign. People are traveling schools out. You're trying to figure out what do your kids. People just are not tuning in. Having said that, I mean, the amount of money that'll be flowing into Texas over this race, I mean, a great time to be a media consultant. Right. And placing ads and making money because over hand, over fist, because that's what they're going to be doing. Maybe that if, you know, it's been traditionally you don't go up on air until after, you know, a little bit after Labor Day, depending on the resources. But I just don't think that people tune in until you get a few months out. So you know what to do during the summer if you're not putting up TV ads. You know, it goes back to Abraham Lincoln, quote, if he's going to spend four hours chopping down a tree, he's going to spend three of those hours sharpening the ax. So getting people in place, getting your team together, you know, building out that. That organization that's on the ground so you can hit the ground running after Labor Day or shortly before Beverly is

[B]

communication over the summer, emails, digital, anything makes sense or really save everything for the fall.

[F]

I think you'd have some digital ads here and there. But August to me is that that time frame where you do hit hard. Part of that is because I feel like schools start earlier than ever before, even some first week of August. So. So I think for many people, that mindset shift is when your kids go back to school and that's when you start paying attention to what's going on. But I agree with Joe, it's once Labor Day hits, that's when you hit it really hard. But I think there's definitely going to be some ads that people are seeing as just August is when I would start ramping it up.

[B]

Yeah. So speaking of August, there is this asymmetrical moment that's going to occur either August or September, early September. The President Trump wants to have a convention and it looks like the Republican Party's going to do it. The Democrats talked about doing it, but the DNC honestly doesn't have enough money to do it. And so as of now, they're going to pass. We don't know really what this will look like 1 day, 2 day, 3 day, 4 day. But they will have a big moment. And again, I think it's underrated, potentially, as an asymmetrical edge, because the press will cover it, it'll be a big story. And like the presidential conventions, it will give them a time of the spotlight to present what they want to present. Beverly, if you were programming that convention, what kind of things would you have there?

[F]

Well, you have to have the president there. Again, he is not on the ballot. So having him supporting candidates is going to be huge for, for these candidates themselves. It also gives an opportunity for these candidates to be on the same stage as the president. Get the photo op, get the sound bite that they can put on social media, and it gets everybody in the same place. So you see this cohesive, cohesive element with it all. So have all the. The candidates that are in these big elections, have the president there, give the good speeches. I think there's nothing that can hurt from it, and it can only help.

[B]

Joe, if I lost my mind. Or is this an advantage for the Republicans?

[D]

I mean, the more exposure, the better if you're in the news. And also, I mean, just logistically, having candidates there, meeting with other donors, other supporters, broadening their network. I mean, if you're a candidate, that's what you're continuously looking to do, right? Is broaden your own network, find more support, especially when you're running on a national scale. You know, I mean, assuming Paxton makes it through the primary, which I'm sure he will, you know, you're looking to make any person who's trying to make their race much larger than it is, right? You know, saying that my House seat will dictate control of the House or my Senate seat will dictate which party controls the Senate. So getting people together, broadening your reach and broadening your network is always a plus.

[B]

Beverly, besides the President, name one Republican you give a speaking slot, too, in primetime.

[F]

Marco Rubio, of course.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Here's my idea. And I'm not advising the Republicans, but I'll tell you my idea. I thought of it on my run this morning. Have you know the show Love Letters where the two people, the two characters, read letters back and forth? Have Rubio and Vance do, like a joint address, twin podiums, right. That would light up the room. Right.

[F]

Trump would love it. He loves to have that battle.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, Marco, Ruby, you didn't say Vance. Interesting.

[D]

She didn't say Santos either. Yeah, that was interesting.

[B]

George Santos from the West Wing or Congressman Santos. Joe, what Republican on the ballot this year do you find formidable and it would be a good rhetorical force at their convention.

[D]

I mean, I agree. I think, you know, Rubio is very well spoken. I think he obviously deserves a prime spot. And again, you know, look, what Republicans have done in the past is bring in some of these cultural figures too. And so when we talk about cultural wars and the, the battle for America, like anytime, I wish the Democratic Party would do more of this showing folks who Americans resonate with so not just, not just politicians, but reaching out to other areas, you know, and I think, Mark, you know, I talk in that book how big of a mistake it was for Vice President Harris not to go on Joe Rogan show. But yeah, the influence of, of folks outside of politics cannot be underestimated.

[B]

I'll be super curious to see if they have any AI executives speak at that convention. No, they won't. All right, Beverly, thank you. Grateful to you for being here as always. Beverly Hallberg. We're gonna take a quick break then Joe and it's going to come back. We're going to take a deep dive into his grand new book, Life of the Party. Joe and I. Joe Cunningham and I back. That's next up. Hey, did you know that high blood pressure is the number one risk factor for mortality? One in two adults has it and that means there's a 50, 50 chance that you are a walking time bomb. Here's the good news though. You can take control of your blood pressure naturally without relying on Big Pharma. 120 Life is a blend of great tasting super fruit juices that have been shown to help lower blood pressure. It's backed by hundreds of doctors and trusted by thousands of people who've seen measurable results. And here's the best part. It's completely risk free. Try 120Life for two weeks and if you don't see a difference in your numbers, you get your money back. Go to 120Life.com, that's 120Life.com and use my code NextUp to save 20% and get yourself free shipping. This is serious. This is your life we're talking about. 120 life can help.

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[B]

All right, next up and rejoining me now, former South Carolina Congressman Joe Kunn got to talk about his new book. It's very timely, very important, called Life of the How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Can Win It Back. It officially hits bookshelves this month. Joe, congratulations.

[D]

Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. And thanks for having me on.

[B]

Sure. So the first campaign I ever covered in my career full time was the Clinton campaign for president in 1992. And I have to say, since then, pretty much nonstop. I hear from Democrats who say we've got to fight our way back in here, particularly from smart Southern Democrats like you who say the party has lost touch with ordinary Americans and Bill Clinton did something to bring it back. Barack Obama did something to bring it back. But the trend has been inexorable, particularly in your part of the country where Democrats have just been wiped out. So I've heard this theme before. What I love about your book, besides the fact that you grounded it in your actual experience, is you're actually thinking about practically how to do it, not just paying lip service to how big a problem it is. So talk about your experience as a member of Congress, as someone who ran for governor in your state of South Carolina. First, just start with your experience. Why are you someone people should listen to about a question of how the Democratic Party can come back, particularly in what are now red states?

[D]

Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm a lifelong Democrat from the South. I grew up in Tall Kentucky. It's a town that boasts a population of about 500 people. It was a dry county when I was there. I moved away from western Kentucky to come down to Charleston to go to college down here. So I am a lifelong Democrat who's lived nowhere else but in the South. And so I understand the culture and I understand when, when people start to vote away other than Democrat would be independent or go Republican. I understand why, because, because I talk to them and I understand what, what turns them off. I understand what, what doesn't connect with them. So all this is grounded. And I Point out in the book, Mark, you know Aristotle made he condensed arguments down to three parts, right? Ethos, Legos and pathos. Ethos being the ethics, like the credibility, pathos being emotions and feelings and then logos being logic and facts and things like that. So the ethics and the credibility that I have in putting this book out there and is being a lifelong Democrat from the Deep south, but also being one of the. Being the first Democrat to come out publicly and say that President Biden should not have run for reelection. I went on CNN and did that a year and a half before the election. And I did that because all Democratic voters were telling me the same thing publicly. I mean, I'm sorry privately, but would not say it publicly. I was also the first Democrat come out in 2017 to say that I went support Nancy Pelosi for Speaker of the House. And I kept that promise. And that wasn't a slight at Nancy Pelosi personally. It was about a new generation of leadership. So whether it be calling for age limits, whether it be calling for new people to step up, I have been on the forefront at the peak of this. And quite frankly, Mark, I've suffered some of the consequences and can personally attest to why more people don't do this. But having been here my entire life, I feel like it provides me with a lot of credibility to write on the subject on why people left the Democratic Party and how we can bring them back. Yeah.

[B]

So when Bill Clinton ran For President in 1992, he supported the death penalty, welfare reform, right to work, free trade. These positions were so far out of step with where the party was, the national platform. And most people in Democratic Party people thought, well, that's impossible. He can't win the nomination with those positions. But because he was such a skilled politician and because the party wanted to win so badly, he won. And then he took those more moderate, more centrist positions into the White House. What I see now, I'm not being defeatist for the cause you're proclaiming, but what I see so difficult is you could have all the message discipline in the world as a Democrat. You could be running for office and say, I'm going to buy life of the party and I'm going to consult with Joe and I'm going to figure out exactly how to talk about things to try to get credibility back with working class voters. And then AOC will say let's nationalize health care, or Bernie Sanders or Mayor Mondame will say let's have free grocery stores, or somebody else will say, let's let trans athletes play in girls sports and that'll get the attention and the Republicans will amplify it. So how do you pull off what you're talking about in the book when the party is farther to the left now than when Bill Clinton pulled this off?

[D]

Well, if you look at those people you mentioned and you look at the folks that Fox News puts on, you're right that the party looks further left. But as you dig into this book, it talks about how the majority of Democrats oppose trans athletes and playing in women's sports. And so there's a, there's a disconnect here between where the media likes to say the Democratic Party actually is and where the Democratic Party actually sits, particularly Mark, here in South Carolina among black Democrats. I mean, I've run in this congressional district twice. I've run statewide. I find black Democrats in South Carolina to be the most pragmatic. And the numbers and statistics, when you look at them, they're much more in line with where the vast majority of the country is. But being more aggressive and not allowing everyone to define who you are and what your party's opinion is, I think is critical. Speaking up as well. There's a, there's a large fear among Democrats, Mark, to, to speak up against these things. When I point out in this book, when Seth Molton came on and said, you know, the crazy idea that, you know, that trans should not compete in women's sports, he lost staff members, he lost endorsements, lost a lot of different things. And so the Democratic Party has become, I say Democratic Party loosely, but a lot of Democrats have become paralyzed of being called some form of ist or ism because that's the knee jerk reaction when you say or do something, when in reality, we should be looking at this pragmatically, we should be looking at this in the same lens that the rest of the country is.

[B]

So that's really, to me, a big part of the problem, what you just said, which is people in the party who know better feel differently as a matter of principle. No matter. As a matter of politics are afraid to speak out against the base. Now, that's not new. You see that in the Republican Party also today. How do you solve that problem so that people can publicly and privately say no? That's not the view of most Democrats. That's not my view. Rather than what happened to Congressman Moulton, which is he suffered dire political consequences for saying something that not just he believed in, but something that's more popular than unpopular.

[D]

You know, it's The Democratic Party, you know, has become more of a private club with a velvet rope instead of just an open door. You know, we've gone from the big tent party to the small umbrella party. And we need to realize that we can have a difference of opinion about things. When I came out and said that Biden shouldn't run for reelection, I came out for age limits. I think it was 73% of Democrats held that same belief. Not, not just Americans of Democrats, the vast majority. When I toured around the state, Democratic party chairs would pull me aside and say that he shouldn't run. But when I came out and said that in public, you lose friends, you lose donors, the invites dry up, you don't get invited to the events, those types of things. So there's real political blowback.

[B]

You're right. You're describing the problem. How do you fix that, that problem, which is not an incidental problem, but you got it. You got to be able to have

[D]

robust debate, being able to celebrate that independence. And again, if we're going to truly call ourselves a big tent party, we can't just put things online. Says, okay, we're blackballing this person because of they said X, Y or Z or they support this or that. It's about. And I put on this book, I have a partner here about. And you remember the clip of Kamala Harris where she says she's talking about being woke and she said we can, you know, everybody, everybody just stay woke. We can argue about who's woker or who's wokest, but just stay woke. You remember that sound bite?

[B]

Yes, sir.

[D]

So what stuck out to me, and I illustrate this in the book, was that clip where she says we can argue about who's woker or woke ist, but just stay woke. It implies that there is a, a competition among Democrats to become the most woke, the most self righteous. I'm for the greatest cause, I'm for the most inclusive. And I'm talking from this, you know, this mountaintop down to you and looking down at you and I'm high and mighty that has created such a canyon between the national Democrats and normal voters who feel like they're being spoken down to. And I know that because again, like I hear it and res and, and that's how I feel when I hear it. I know how other folks feel when they hear it. So the, the far left and the national Democrats will chase these fringe issues and they will cram solutions into corners where no problems exist, going after a tenth of 1% of the voting population. At the expense of so many more. And I talk about this in the chapter on cultural wars on LGBTQ issues. You know, the, the far left, which has become hijacked by, you know, the ivory tower elites who think up these solutions in, you know, Harvard and Yale, and they think they work on Main street instead of going down to these small towns, these rural areas, and simply ask them what they need and what they can do to help. So that elitism and that the thinking that goes along with it has, I think when you ask what the problem is or why it exists, I think that's a major, major issue.

[B]

One of the things I learned in 1992 was that the donor class, particularly people who live here, where I live in New York City, has it exactly opposite of the truth about what America is largely like. The donor class of your party, the rich Democrats, think the country is economically liberal but fiscally conservative. And the reality is pretty close to the opposite in my experience. And that's what the Clinton folks thought. The country is culturally conservative, but pretty economically liberal on a lot of things. Do you see it that way? Do you share that analysis or do you think the country is both culturally and economically conservative or something else?

[D]

Well, I think, you know, when you talk about the cultural wars, they've had such a tremendous impact because what the Republican Party has done is taken these 80, 20 issues and basically dog walked the Democratic Party into these areas and trapped in there and then amplify it with media and drive these messages home. And again, I think the Democratic Party, a lot of Democrats, feel hesitant to speak out because it might, you know, hurt the emotions of a fraction of a certain number of people. And they don't want to be called an ist or an ism instead of looking at it from a point of fairness. You know, there's the, the, the quote that I reference in the book that Democrats can have a great sense of justice and a very poor sense of injustice. So while there, you know, maybe well intended, you have unintended consequences that ripple across the country and can brand certain Democrats as being out of touch.

[B]

Yeah, you're a Democrat by birth. Your family was Democrat Democrats and Southern Democrats involved in politics to extend your Democrat out of, out of ideology, out of instinct, out of principle. What are the principles of the party that you believe in or that are important to you that make you want to save the party?

[D]

Yeah, well, so I mentioned the first chapter. I don't talk a lot about myself, Mark. This isn't a running for president intro book where I talk about Growing up

[B]

and you know, childhood log cabin you built yourself.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I actually had to get talked into writing that first chapter just to introduce myself. But I grew up in far western Kentucky and that was a, at one time as the most impoverished area of one of the most impoverished states in the country. And what FDR's New Deal did through the TVA was went in there, built locks and dams, it put people to work, it gave people the dignity of work and a job while also creating cheap hydroelectric power. And my grandfather was, was put to work during that, during that process, he, and he started off building a lock and dam and ultimately worked his way up to become lock master. He went to, went to eighth grade twice because there was no other schooling beyond eighth grade where he was. So my father has his eighth grade diploma hanging, still hanging on his wall back then, Mark, you know, the, the Democratic Party, fdr, it was about big ideas. It's about bold vision. It was about lifting up working class people. I think what we, I think we, we have a lot of issues right now in front of us. I think we spent a lot of oxygen talking about Trump and bashing Trump and Grant. Look, I'm not sympathizer here. I voted to impeach President Trump. However, I think we waste a lot of time in attacking him instead of attacking the problems that are facing Americans. And we've seen a hollowing out of the middle class to the point where it simply just almost does not exist. And just staying alive has become unaffordable. And so again, I think the Democratic Party can resurface. It can re. Emerge if it has the big ideas, the bold ideas, even more populist ideas. But, but our conversations and our issues seem to be dictated by where President Trump wants to take us. And so you find Democrats go on TV every night disagreeing with, with things Trump says or does, even when they may have agreed with it if a Democrat had suggested it.

[B]

So you say Democrats have been historically for big ideas and that that appeals to you. What are some things like values? You'd say my party stands for this and the Republican Party stands for that. And that's why I'm a Democrat.

[D]

I believe, I believe in personal freedoms, Margaret. You know, I believe, believe in that Roe v. Wade was, was the correct law and was the correct manner. I believe in free and fair elections. I mean, I understand both parties are engaged in gerrymandering. I see it. But every single day it's not right. But I also understand, Mark, that there's only been one party to put a bill on the House for that bans gerrymandering. I think it's the root of a lot of the issues that we see in Congress. It's, it's created, you know, it's, it's created a system where I heard someone say it the other day, it's elections in reverse is what it is. 95% of congressional races will remain uncompetitive in the general election because of that.

[B]

Right.

[D]

So, you know, I subscribe to the Democratic Party. I think it's out of a place of, of what it's done for my family. My grandfather, I got approached a lot on House 4 by switching parties. You know, I was one of those same time, you know, Jeff Andrew was getting approached, so was I, and so were others. But there are certain things that I would rather. And I told them, you know, I think I can have a lot more value in trying to bring my party back to the center than I can have any power anywhere else.

[B]

So who would you say is your target audience? Who should buy this book in both Democrats and not. Who would, who would benefit from reading it?

[D]

So I think any Democrat that may be frustrated with how things went in 2024, Mark, I think any Democrat on the coast who may not understand things in the south, who may not understand how toxic the Democratic brand has become, I can tell you that it has become an albatross for any Democrat in the South. I met with a candidate, I get calls a lot of candidates who are running in tough districts in the south, and they, you know, they connect me and, and I speak to them and they'll tell, you know, everybody's scared to death by doing something wrong because they'll get put in a TV ad. And I tell them, look, the, the worst thing you have going for you in a conservative district is the letter beside your name. That's, that's, that's what they're going to run. So there's, so don't worry about, you know, whatever other mistakes or mishaps or, you know, how you may misspeak on the campaign trail because that is, is what's, what's most hurtful in the South. But I think Republicans would, would appreciate this as well, Mark. And, and when you read it, you understand that a lot of these lessons are things that can be shared by anyone in politics, anyone at all. And I try to write it in a very simple manner, as a matter of fact, because these, the problems we're facing, the party are not that complex. And so even if you're A Republican. If you're like, you know, I don't want to vote for Democrats, I hate Democrats, blah, blah, blah. I still would encourage people to buy it, to read it, to understand the party. And quite frankly, Mark, I think Republicans should want a strong Democratic Party because it creates competition. And if you're, if you're on one side, you're on one side of the aisle and you say, I want the other party to fail and go hide underneath the rock and you want one party rule. Well, there are countries you can move to where you can have that. But this is a democracy. It should be a battle of ideas, and we should encourage competition in politics, same way we do and with commerce.

[B]

I'm going to name a successful person. You tell me one sentence, just one sentence, what someone running for office can learn from them. Okay. Okay. Barack Obama.

[D]

Barack Obama was very well, you know, very articulate, very well educated.

[B]

No, but what could somebody learn from him even if they don't have his skills?

[D]

Are you talking about what could somebody learn from Barack Obama? Or what could Barack Obama learn from my book, Mark?

[B]

Which one? What's somebody who didn't have Barack Obama's natural talents still learn from him about how to succeed in politics?

[D]

I think Barack Obama had a great oratorial skills in speaking and tone, the idea of storytelling and bringing people in and connecting with voters. But it also has to be done in a genuine way. You can't fake that. You can't just say, I'm going to go out and speak really well and connect with folks. I've seen politicians do that.

[B]

Who.

[D]

I say who I think to myself, damn, they're good. Like, they're really good, but they're too good. And you've seen these, too. You look too good where you, you slightly just don't trust them. But he's, you know, he had, he gave great speeches and great.

[B]

What about Donald Trump? What, what can Democrats learn from Donald Trump?

[D]

Donald Trump's messaging is, is very simple and it connects with voters. You know, and, and he's, look, he fights like hell for what he wants. And, and I think when the, when you hear Democrats saying we, we need our own version of, of Trump somebody, or we want, we need to fight like hell. We need a fighter. When I hear that, I, I don't, I don't envision, like, we need somebody who go out and bash Trump and bash Republicans every day. I think what they're, what Democratic Party needs and yearns for is somebody who will put their shoulder to the wheel and say, we're doing this hell or high water. Just like President Trump, he had his immigration stances and policies and he's been taken into the courts. And Democrats are looking like if he's broken the law or bent the law and he's taken it up through the courts, why can't Democrats take that same approach for voting rights or for women's reproductive rights? Why can't we just do things and then fight tooth and nail through each court system in order to get what we want? I think that's the kind of fight that the Democratic Party is looking for, is someone will say like, I'm not letting these constraints, I mean, operating within the law, but I'm challenging it at every single level and not, not rolling over.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, there are very few Democrats in the country involved in the national debate who understand there's a problem, who can understand what the problem is for the party to rebuild, to become a national party and not a coastal party. Of those group who see it and understand it, there's very few who are willing to speak out about it. So you have an opportunity here to buy a book to learn from someone who sees the problem, sees solutions and is willing to address them. Joe Cunningham's new book's called Life for the How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Can Win It Back. If you're a Democrat listening to me or watching the program program, go buy Joe's book. Now at a minimum, you'll hear a great story and you hear some positive ideas about what the party can be. Because for all the success they they may have in November, it is still a party that struggles in Joe's part of the country and in other parts out west where Democrats used to win elections and now mostly they don't. Joe, thank you. Grateful to you and congratulations on the book.

[D]

Thanks for having me, Mark. Appreciate it.

[B]

All right, that's it for today's show. We'll be back on Tuesday with a brand new episode. Grateful to you for for watching today. For listening today, subscribe to the program on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. So you always know what's coming next up.

[E]

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[G]

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[D]

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