← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Trump’s Seven Rules For Making Decisions, and Vance’s Transformation, with Batya, Bolling, Knowles
01:19:55
Mark Halperin kicks off today’s show with an in-depth analysis of Donald Trump’s decision-making process, breaking down the seven rules that guide his leadership. Mark explores how Trump’s instinct-driven choices, strategic use of chaos, and mastery of controlling the narrative have set him apart from past presidents—and allow him to effectively make choices and shape how his decisions are perceived. Then, Mark is joined by Batya Ungar-Sargon and Eric Bolling for an in-depth discussion on the changing landscape of immigration politics. The trio unpacks the real sentiments of Americans, exploring the complexities behind issues like mass deportation and the various stances within the MAGA movement. Plus, Michael Knowles from The Daily Wire traces JD Vance’s rapid rise within the GOP, from his Hollywood-blessed memoir to becoming one of the party’s most influential figures—perhaps even its future leader. Michael reveals to Mark the secret behind Ben Shapiro’s success, and the two tr...
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- [00:00]
Mark Halperin
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- [00:31]
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- [01:20]
Mark Halperin
Welcome in nexties. You're not really called nexties. For those of you who don't know, we're still looking for a name for the community here, but it's a running joke. For those of you who don't get it, we'll never actually name the community probably. But today I'm calling you nexties just for fun. Trying it out. Welcome in nexties. I'm Mark Halpert, Editor in chief of the live Interactive video platform 2way and your guide to everything that's next up. We have a jam packed show today, which is what people in the video business always say, but this one is real. In a moment, my monologue, my reported monologue on how Donald Trump makes decisions. It's one of the think most under misunderstood, underappreciated aspects of his leadership, of his presidency. And I'll walk you through my reporting on how Donald Trump deals with the big choices he faces as Commander in Chief, as President, United States, as a politician that in a moment and then two great guests. Eric Bolling of Bolling, longtime host and journalist, will join us along with Bachan Gar Sargon, my two way colleague, the author, journalist and co host of the group chat on Two way. And then a little later in the program, one of my favorite phrases for the media business. A little later in the program, Michael Knowles, the host of the Michael Knows Michael Knowles show on the Daily Wire, will be here. We'll talk to Michael about all manner of things. You'll be stunned, shocked, delighted and amazed at how much we have in common. All right, but first, my reported monologue on choices. Decisions. Every president has as their main job making tough decisions because the easy ones get made by the staff. You'll talk to anyone who's been president, United States, any chief of staff at the White House, and they'll tell you the biggest thing is every decision that gets the Oval Office inbox is a tough one because if not, it would have been made by someone else. George Bush famously called himself the decider. He wrote a whole book about this. It was called Decision Points, because his view was the most interesting way, the most important way to look at the presidency is to say, what did a president do? What did he do in this book when he faced the top decisions? Now, of course, there are commonalities about how these presidents do make their decisions. They have a chief of staff and a Cabinet and the Situation Room, and they get polling briefings. There's some overlaps, but I've studied them all. Every president I've covered, and I've always thought about it this way, whether they're running for president or as president, what is distinctive, what's different about how they make decisions, that separates them from the other ones. And some of them are famous for having made bad decisions. You take Joe Biden and the question of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, widely seen as a bad decision. And I think if you want to study presidencies or you want to think about people running for president, think about what kind of decision makers are there, what kind of process do they use to make decisions. And in the case of Afghanistan, I think we've never had a really good accounting, despite some investigations by Congress and by the Biden administration itself, is what went into that bad decision. So to report and think about and explain any president's decision making process I think is a way to understand their mind and evaluate what kind of president they would be if they're a presidential candidate and what kind of president they've been. Right? Are they good decision makers? And if you do that for Donald Trump, what you're basically saying is, how does Trump's mind work? Hillary Clinton famously said about her husband, former President Clinton, that when he dies, people should study his mind. I think the same thing's true about Donald Trump. His mind is, is, it's unique. The way he makes decisions is unique. And I've been reporting this out since I met him over a decade ago. Two. Two decades ago, really, and, or a decade and a half to be exact. And, and whenever I'm evaluating him, when he ran for president, the first time, second time, third time, and as president, I'm always talking to people about how is that decision made, what went into it, and some of it you can, you can observe. Now, my premise is Trump is. The way Trump makes decisions is distinctive. And I'll walk you through why I think that, but it's also pretty effective. Now, I'm not here to endorse Trump or defend every decision he's ever made or he ever will make. He's made some bad ones and he'll continue to. But I think he is underappreciated as a decision maker, more better at it than his critics give him credit for being. And I think that even if you don't agree with his decisions, the way he makes them, the way he deals with them is suggestive of a pretty compelling process. And again, I'm not endorsing him, but I'm telling you, he decides in a way that is quite effective. And of late, of course, he's been on a roll. His decision to have us bomb Iran, the way he decided to do one reconciliation bill rather than two, when a lot in his part, many of his party wanted to do, too. That was a big decision. The tariff strategy, much derided, but by the view of some people, and the view of some people, a very good decision. And we'll talk about that. All of that, all of those decisions and many more, all that he's done as president, a product of this distinctive decision making process. Now, if just on the face of it, you don't need to do a ton of reporting to know this. There are flaws in this decision making process. And the chaos is often widely criticized, that there's too much chaos in how he does it. But it's also been discussed that the chaos is part of his process, particularly in dealing with foreign countries, where he's borrowed from Richard Nixon this notion of the madman theory, that if people think Trump is so unpredictable, so capable of switching on a dime and doing anything, that it puts them off balance. So even the chaos, which is, I'd say, the thing that his decision making process gets described as the most and criticized the most, there's something to that. There's something that works about How Trump makes decisions. If he ends up being a hugely successful president, I think a big part of it's going to be, of course, that he uses this distinctive process to make decisions and he makes them well. So here now, based on my reporting over many years and very intensely over the last couple weeks, the seven rules Donald Trump has for making decisions. First thing is he knows who to ask. You know, if you're, if you got a national security issue, presidents are going to ask their, they're going to ask their Secretary of State, they're going to ask their Secretary of Defense, their national security advisor. And Trump does that. He'll talk to the usual people. Some of it's very linear, but some of it's not. Some of it is out of the box. He'll talk to someone in his office, a business leader who's in his office for a meeting on a totally unrelated topic. He'll say to that person, what do you think I should do about Iran? He's famous for asking people at his two clubs in New Jersey and Florida, what do you think I should do? Three club, two clubs in Florida and one in New Jersey. People say, well, that's kind of random. Why would he ask some random, you know, waiter, gardener or business leader something where there's not a linear way that they're involved in the decision? And the answer is sometimes it's random, but sometimes Trump has high human intelligence. And he says, well, well, this business leader knows how to make decisions about business. So I'm going to ask them what they think about this unrelated decision. It's an extremely important trait. He's open minded about who to ask and he knows who to ask, even if they're not the person with line authority. Second thing about Trump in terms of making decisions, again, underappreciated. He's a massive student of history. He's also a huge sports fan, which I think a lot of people don't fully appreciate. Huge student history. Knows a lot about it, knew a lot about it before he was president. Since he became president, he's become even more invested in studying past presidents and how they've dealt with the job, including this issue of decision making. Here he is from a cabinet meeting this week. Give you some idea of just how into understanding his predecessors he is. Role A2, please.
- [09:06]
Donald Trump
President Polk, he was sort of a real estate guy. He was, people don't realize he was.
- [09:12]
Mark Halperin
One of, he was a, a one termer, but he was a very good president.
- [09:17]
Donald Trump
But, and I'm not sure I should.
- [09:19]
Mark Halperin
Be doing this he actually gave us.
- [09:20]
Donald Trump
The state of California.
- [09:21]
Mark Halperin
He was the one.
- [09:23]
Donald Trump
And then you have Dwight Eisenhower, who was a very underrated president, built the interstate system. And he was the toughest president, I guess, until we came along. But I don't mind giving up that.
- [09:34]
Mark Halperin
Crowd because I don't want to. He was not a Republican, to put it mildly, but he was, was, you know, he was a four termer. He was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
- [09:44]
Donald Trump
Over there is honest Abe Lincoln. And the Lincoln bedroom is very famous.
- [09:50]
Mark Halperin
You remember when Bill Clinton had it and he rented it out to people.
- [09:55]
Donald Trump
We don't do that. You have John Adams and it's this was.
- [10:01]
Mark Halperin
They were the first occupants of the White House, 1800. And so the guy can go on and on about every president and not just in kind of a funny or superficial way. He knows the lessons of the past presidents and he's learned from them. And it informs his decision making. The clearest example to me is the Forever Wars. He knows that Lyndon Johnson's presidency crashed on the shores of Vietnam. He knows what happened in Afghanistan with his predecessors. He knows what happened in Iraq with George W. Bush. And learning those lessons, understanding past errors made by his predecessors is a huge part of how he makes decisions as president. That requires knowing both what they did and the impact of what they did. And he does. Okay, number three, Trump rule for decision making. Make no decision before it's time. People will say, Mr. President, you have to decide this by X date, or you previously said you would make this decision by August 1st, so you have to make it by August 1st. Trump runs on his own clock when he's making a decision. When he's got a choice, he feels absolute freedom to reach whatever conclusion he wants to, long after the conventional timekeeping would suggest he has to decide. It's an extremely valuable trait. Not everybody can get away with it. Trump can. But knowing that anybody tells him, you got to decide this by X, either because of some external deadline or because he set a deadline previously in public or in private. He just doesn't care. He does not make a decision until he absolutely has to, and sometimes not even then. It's an extremely risky thing to do in some cases. But that is a big part of Trump's decision making. That sets him apart from a lot of other leaders, a lot of other previous presidents. All right, number four, Trump matches the decision to the specific problem. Okay. He sometimes will be guided by very simple, simplistic good versus bad, right versus wrong principles to make a choice. But sometimes he'll say, well, no, on this choice, it's really got to be kind of bloodless. I need data. I need to make a very strategic decision. It all depends on the nature of the facts on the ground for whatever the choice is, whatever decision he has to make, the nature of that decision. Some leaders will say, I'm just always going to say what's right, what's wrong. Some leaders are going to say, well, I'm just going to go on the data. I'm just going to be like Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, just a bloodless decision. In studying Trump, what I see is a guy who again, matches each decision to whatever the specific is, doesn't feel hemmed in by either the simple, a good versus bad, moral, amoral, or I got to decide based on data. It's all situational. Again, I think that's a very realistic and strong way to make decisions as president. Number five, making the decision about what to do. It's only the first step. Trump focuses way more than most presidents do on execution and implementation of any decision he makes. He knows that the decision's important, but it's only the first thing you gotta do. So give you an example. As a candidate, Trump decided after the train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, that he was gonna go, right? And there were some questions. Should he go? Should he not? He wasn't president, you know, would he disrupt things there? All the normal things that go into that kind of choice. Trump decides to go. Now, most presidents or presidential candidates, having decided to take a trip like that, they tell the staff and expect the staff to go out and implement it, right? Like, where is he going to go? What are the photo ops going to be? How long will he be there? Trump considers that packed to the decision. It's wedded to the decision to go. So when he decides to go, Trump thinks of everything like it's a movie and he's the star of the movie. So Trump says, okay, we're going to go now. What are we going to do there? Right? So Trump decides to go to East Palestine, and the trip is widely considered historically now as a huge success. It helped him contrast himself with Joe Biden. It helped him contrast himself with the other Republicans who at the time were challenging him for the nomination. And that was somewhat about the decision to go. He didn't see Joe Biden go right away, and. And some controversy over that. It's part of why Trump went. We also didn't see other Republican presidential candidates go. So you make the decision to go. But as I said, for Trump, that's just the first step. Look at how effective he was in speaking. This is just one of many things moments when he was on the ground in East Palestine. But look how effectively this is staged. Look at the folks behind him. Look at what he says. Here's Donald Trump in East Palestine. To the people of East Palestine and to the nearby communities in Ohio and Pennsylvania, we have told you loud and.
- [14:45]
Donald Trump
Clear, you are not forgotten.
- [14:47]
Mark Halperin
You are not forgotten.
- [14:48]
Donald Trump
We stand with you, we pray for.
- [14:49]
Mark Halperin
You, and we will stay with you in your fight to help answer and the accountability that you deserve, we'll have that accountability. It will all be out there very clearly. All right, I said Palestine. I meant Palestine. I think I said it right once and wrong once. All right, so that's a very well staged set of remarks. But again, the whole trip was, you know, walking around, being shown things by local officials, talking to voters on the ground. This is photo op at a fast food place like this is for Donald Trump, part of the decision. He didn't decide to get arraigned in, in Georgia when he was indicted. He had to go do it. But he was heavily involved, right, in the decisions about, okay, what am I going to do? What kind of press access am I going to give? What am I going to do with the mugshot on social media? All those things, it's the same as president when he says, okay, we're going to change what we're doing on tariffs or we're going to bomb Iran, that's the decision. And then the subsequent decisions are all part of how to do it. And again, with a high emphasis on implementation, high emphasis on executing and of course, the public facing aspects, what he's doing with the media. Speaking of the media, number six, Trump recognizes that if you make a decision and you just throw it out there, you know, I'm going to bomb Iran or I'm going to do one bill, not two, that the press then will take over. And of course, a lot of the press very hostile to him. A lot of the press isn't going to want to frame the story he wants it to frame. So Trump's sixth rule of making decisions, don't let the media frame the decision. Trump wants to frame it himself. And he uses what is an unprecedented and masterful understanding of the media to give himself a kind of optionality on decision making that his predecessors rarely have enjoyed. And that goes from making the decision on himself, you know, to all the incremental things that go from that, all the incremental choices that follow on Trump doesn't want negative or harmful judgments, but he knows that the way to mitigate those about his courses of action is to be in charge of framing the thing. He does not have the politicians typical, most politicians typical defensiveness. He doesn't mind being accused of flip flopping, no division. The decision in his mind is final until he decides it's final. You see that with tariffs. You see that with Putin. He frames every step of the way. So how many decisions has Donald Trump made about what to do about tariffs? It's possible to count. Many, Many, right? Many, many. Sometimes in a day, he'll put tariffs on, he'll take them off. How many decisions has he made about what to say about Putin? He's blown over the course of his time in national life, more hot than cold on Putin. Now he's blowing particularly cold. But there have been other moments like that. Again, Trump's view is he doesn't let the media frame these decisions, particularly when it's a change. He frames it. It doesn't always win. Sometimes the media pushes back and frames it another way. But Trump's always thinking about, how do I frame the decision using social media, using press conferences, using other methods to frame the decision. Other presidents consider their job largely within the four walls of I've made my decision. Go, go implement it. Go, you know, have my press secretary talk about it. Go have cabinet members talk about it. Trump isn't like that. He decides both what to do and how to do it. And as I said, he doesn't mind changing his mind. And there's something about Trump in the context of this one, this, don't let the media frame the decision, that you can study it all you want, but it's not clear that other people can get away with it. Now, other politicians change their mind. Other politicians don't tell the truth. When they change their mind, they pretend they have it. But there's something about Trump. And the only other politician I've covered who plays at this level is Bill Clinton. And you'll hear it all the time. You hear people say, well, how come Trump can get away with this and other people can't? Nobody can answer that question. It's just a, it's an ineffable, a magical thing. And, and the people who oppose Bill Clinton felt the same people as Trump's adversaries do. It's unfair. But part of it is explainable, part of it is explicable because Trump thinks about it. He says he, again, like him or not, he, he understands the media and Television production better than any president I've ever covered. Probably better than anyone ever. And so he frames the decision, and he challenges the media to frame it better, stronger, faster, on their terms, if they don't agree with him, either because they're hostile to him or because he is not telling the truth, or he has made a mistake and he's changing because he's made a mistake. Trump just is relentless about it. He's knowledgeable and he's relentless. And as long as he has an opportunity to change his mind and he thinks that's the better course, he will. Okay, finally, number seven, follow his. Follows his instincts. And this one, you could say, runs counter to all the most of the other stuff I've listed here in the previous six ways Trump makes decisions, because the rest of them are largely about doing things with them with a method, sometimes with the madness, but always with a method. Following your instincts runs counter to that. It says, basically, it doesn't matter who you consult. Right? It doesn't matter if you know anything about history. It doesn't matter what the timing of the decision is. It doesn't matter what factors go into it in terms of data, doesn't matter what implementations there are or what the media's role is. For Trump, what matters is his gut, and that is how he's made a lot of decisions. He does all these other things. But in the end, Trump believes following your instincts is key. Now, other presidents have felt that way at times, but have more doubt. Trump has doubt. And when you talk to people who are around him as he's making big decisions, like with Iran, he's got doubt. Fear may be too strong a word. I'll say he's quite concerned about making a fateful decision like the Iran decision, bombing Iran. Iran might have launched a missile and hit US Americans. Iran might have unleashed terror cells in the United States. There were a lot of risks involved in that decision. And Trump doesn't like risk, doesn't like errors. He certainly doesn't want to make a bad decision as president. He wants to make good decisions, but he believes in his instincts in the end. And I've said this before about Trump, and it fits in this context perfectly. He has extraordinary instincts about human beings, and he. And he's very at peace when he makes a decision. Other presidents I've covered sometimes will agonize a little bit more when Trump decides in the end, takes in all the data, all the consultation, all the planning, but in the end, when he makes a final decision, and again, it's Often at the very last minute or beyond what a normal president would say is the last minute. If his instincts tell him to do A and not B, he's largely at peace with that. And, and his focus is, it moves from self doubt, oh my goodness, should I have done B? Maybe I should have done B. He moves off of that typically. And his focus is on, all right, implementation. We're doing a, let's get it done. And there's a good and bad about having this, all this decision making so concentrated in one person. Right. The bad of it is there may be people who know more than Trump. The, the bad of it is Trump can only do so much. Trump can't fly ahead of his trip and advance the thing himself. Right. He has to rely on other people. And so much of it comes from him. The good of it is it's all integrated in one man. It's all integrated in a single brain of somebody who has extraordinary judgment, extraordinary instincts now that he's in the, you know, in his fifth year in the job, extraordinary experience about how to be a decider as president. And having it all concentrated in one guy all allows there to be kind of a unified sense of how to get things done. A through line of what are the factors I'm going to use to decide, when am I going to decide now that I've decided, how are we going to implement it? How are we going to frame this for the public through the media and through social media. It's a, it's a, it's an extraordinary array. And I thought as I was doing reporting for this, how dissimilar is this from, from his predecessors, you know, and the presence. I've covered both Bush's, Clinton, Obama, Biden. How different is it? And my answer is it's pretty different. There are elements that match the others, but Trump is extremely aware from his time as a business person the importance of making decisions when they're ripe, making them well and following through. And you think about the big decisions he's made as president. Now, a lot of them, tens of millions of Americans agree with the actual decisions. They don't like what he decided. But if the standard you're judging him by in the first instance is did Trump make a decision that he, he liked and did it work out well from his point of view, not from the point of view people disagree with his politics. And then the question is, did it make America better? The verdict on the, on the second one is not in yet. Right? We're gonna have to see not, not Just at the end of his four years, but probably in some cases years down the road. But does he get what he wants? Did he do at least some damage to Iran's nuclear capability? Did he pass a reconciliation bill that fulfilled a lot of his campaign promises? The answer is yes. And I will go back continually and look at every big decision he makes and including ones he's made in the past. We don't really know yet what the results are, but all the ones going forward and say almost always they're reflective of these seven principles that Trump uses to make decisions, and they serve him well from his point of view. Seven rules for making decisions that make Trump different than other presidents and which, as I say, from his point of view, serves him well. He is a confident decision maker. The process itself can be chaotic. There are times when, in all of his consultations, he expresses some doubt. He's working it, he's working it, he's working it, he's working it, and he's getting to the point where he feels comfortable making the decision. And as I said, Trump's timeline is different than everybody else's. So regularly people say, well, what's he going to do about X, or what's he going to do about Y tariffs, you know, every day now for weeks. And the answer is he's going to do a lot of things. No decision is final, and Trump will make decisions serially until he gets to the point where he's happy with how it ends or the clock runs out. That's my view of how Trump makes decisions. Next up, we'll be joined by two gradies, Bhatia Ungar Sargon and Eric Boeing. We're going to talk about everything going on in Trump world and around the world. That is next up. Next up next is a little story about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog, severely underweight, clearly in a lot of trouble. So Leo rescued the Doberman and he named him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start something called Delta Rescue. It's the world's largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses over the years from the wilderness. And they provide their animals shelter, love, safety, and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals, that is Leo's mission and Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue relies on contributions from people like all of us. That's where they get their money from. If you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy? Speak now to your estate planner. Because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits as well. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor. We all call dogs man's best friends for a reason. You can help those now who need it most so please visit Deltarescue.org today to learn more again, please visit Deltarescue.ORG.
- [26:49]
Prolon Advertiser
Want to look and feel your best this summer? Don't just think skin deep, think cell deep with Prolon. Prolon is a plant based nutrition program featuring soups, snacks and beverages that nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state, triggering cellular rejuvenation and renewal. With proper diet and exercise, Prolon helps target fat loss, support lean muscle and reset your metabolism so you look and feel your best all summer long. Prolon is science backed nutrition that can help change your relationship food in just five days. For a limited time, get 25% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe@prolonlife.com PandoraPromo these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. See site for details.
- [27:38]
Mark Halperin
Next up, an explosive combination, or at least one I'm looking forward to. Bhatya Angar Sargan is my colleague at Two Ways. She's an author, journalist, co host of the group chat on Two Way, airs Thursdays at 4pm and Eric Bolling, someone who is such a good broadcaster. I've stolen at least two techniques from him. I call it homage. He calls it. He and his attorney call it stealing. He's the host of Bowling Exclamation Point and a longtime brilliant commentator, journalist and host. Welcome you both in. Very happy to have you here. Next up. Thank you.
- [28:08]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Thanks Mark.
- [28:09]
Donald Trump
Thanks for having me.
- [28:10]
Mark Halperin
All right, I'm so interested in asking you both a bunch of stuff. Let's start with this Batya A constant search for understanding how much the country is paying attention to things versus Twitter and cable and YouTube. Is the country paying attention to Donald Trump on Ukraine, Jeffrey Epstein and immigration? Or is that all? Are those three elite topics? And obviously you might have different answers on the three, but are people paying attention on those three things or is that all just an inside game?
- [28:38]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Okay, so this may be confirmation bias, because these are the things I'm paying attention.
- [28:44]
Mark Halperin
To.
- [28:45]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
So take that with a grain of salt. I think the immigration question and whether Brooke Rollins is trying to give amnesty to millions of farm workers and hotel workers is extremely important. I think Jeffrey Epstein is very important to the influencers, but is not important to actual voters. And I think Russia is sort of, here's where I'm at with Rush. I think I'm kind of where the president is, which is it is becoming clear that I, like the president was incredibly wrong about Putin. I assumed he would take the first off ramp that was offered to him. And so he has made me and President Trump look like fools. So to the extent that I don't like being made to look like a fool, I'm following that very closely. But I don't think anybody holds it against the president for, for being willing to pivot in light of new information coming to light rather than saying, look, I staked out this position that I'm going to end this war and I'm going to do it however it takes and I'm going to screw over one side if the other side is being recalcitrant. So I admire the president's willingness to pivot and to be nimble in his thinking about it. I think I'm kind of in the same place.
- [29:52]
Mark Halperin
Eric, if you walked into a diner in southern Illinois and raised these three issues, would you be met with strong opinions or blank stares?
- [29:59]
Donald Trump
I think strong opinion. Here's, here's what's going on. We, by the way, thank you for having Mark, great format. Bhatia, good to see you again. My friend. Your original question is what's. I think the heart of what you're getting at right here is these three topics have kind of flipped MAGA on its ear a little bit because I come from og, as Steve Bannon will call me, original Gangster maga. When Trump backtracked on, let's call it Russia, Ukraine, when he then said he was going to not deport farm workers and hospitality workers, MAGA kind of flipped out a little bit. And then the Epstein file, it just feels like this is a continued, it must be social salacious and so big, Mark, that it goes beyond both lines that they didn't want to tick off a lot of wealthy people, a lot of high powerful people, and also a lot of deep state people. So maybe they're all kind of sitting on it. But I do agree with you. There's a, there's an issue going on right now within maga. Like what is maga? Can we redefine? Can we define what MAGA is? And it turns out what MAGA may end up being is whatever Trump wants it to be at the moment. And Bhatia, I will tell you, if you stick around long enough, Trump will not Putin, but Trump will make all of us look like fools several times over.
- [31:15]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Well, Eric, I gotta disagree a little bit. I wouldn't say that MAGA is whatever Trump says it is. I would say slightly modify that by saying Donald Trump has a genius for reading the room, for taking the temperature both of his base, but also of that sort of 10% of Americans who don't fit neatly into either side who are sort of much more socially conservative but much more economically liberal. He is so good at reading where the nation is at ad. So I would just say it's not that MAGA is whatever Trump says it is, it's that he really.
- [31:54]
Donald Trump
Okay, so is deporting all illegals what Trump wants to do or is it MAGA or is it some of each? I mean, help me out here because how do you say we're going to deport everyone who's here illegally, we're going to start with the criminals and then deport everyone and then say, well, the actual hospitality and agricultural workers will be on a, you know, a sensitivity basis, so to speak. So it's all or it's not all. Which one is it? Which one's magna?
- [32:22]
Mark Halperin
I'll tell you.
- [32:23]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
I'll tell you, Eric, here's how you know what it is. Cuz Trump didn't sign an executive order about that. He tested the material at a rally.
- [32:33]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, he flipped it out there. He focus grouped it.
- [32:36]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
He focus grouped it. He sent it out there into the ERA to see the vibes, to test the vibes, to see the reaction. The reaction has been extremely powerfully against that proposal. And I imagine he's going to take the reins from Brooke Rollins pretty soon on this. He's not going to give in because it has grouped really poorly.
- [32:57]
Donald Trump
Tuesday they delivered the agriculture this big event. It was Pete Hegseth was there, defense was there, justice was there, Pam Bondi was there, Christine Noem was there, Homeland Security. And it was Brooke Rollins, A.G. uSDA that put it out there. And she on that podium said we will be doing it. Not, not mass deportations of farmers. But it'll be honest.
- [33:17]
Mark Halperin
All right, let's stick with the. Sorry, let's stick with the deportation question, right? This is a public policy question of some significance for the economy, for people who think people shouldn't be in this country illegally. Right. There's big questions about everybody. I think now maybe not everybody, but most Everybody would say, whether they're MAGA or not, people who came here illegally and have committed crimes should go. Right. And that we have the bandwidth to do that and that won't destroy the economy. Then there's the question of people who are here legally, who are big contributors to the economy. Big contributors. Right. People in hospitality and ag say we can't do our jobs. And that's not just about their businesses. It's about America. If we can't have access to these workers, and then there's question of, okay, let's say they're right. What do we do? Is there a way to find a way for them to still have access to those workers?
- [34:07]
Donald Trump
Well, you're assuming they're right, Mark.
- [34:10]
Mark Halperin
I'm not assuming they're right.
- [34:11]
Donald Trump
I'm saying let's say they're right. Well, just to the hypothetical, as a purist, deport maga.
- [34:18]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [34:19]
Donald Trump
Or you're here illegally, you go home, you come back in the right way, or just go home and. Yes. And guess what will happen. Yes. You'll have to pay an American farm worker or, or someone who's cleaning hospital or hotel rooms more money because they're American and they're. They're not coming over.
- [34:35]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, totally agree.
- [34:38]
Donald Trump
But goes up, prices go up.
- [34:40]
Mark Halperin
Understood. And just be clear. When I said assume they're right, I didn't mean I'm. I'm saying they're right. I'm saying that's part of the decision tree that the President's thinking about. Because the President's hearing from a lot of his friends who's saying that is the right position. Right.
- [34:52]
Donald Trump
Except when you do that, prices go up. And he's, he is very focused on lowering inflation, lowering the price of food and energy. So he's. He's caught himself. He's painted himself kind of.
- [35:05]
Mark Halperin
He has. And clearly, if we keep making that exception, if we keep saying, well, people who get here illegally, who decide they're going to be in jobs that the President's friends say are necessary, get to stay. That's not a great system. But. So here's my question, Bacha. First, I want to get to the bottom of where the American people are on this. And we can't do it based on the election because the President didn't run on letting hospitality and ag workers stay here. Right. That's a new thing he's dangling at there. So if I gave you a $10 million and I cloned you both, how would you try to figure out where the American people were on this Issue because I don't think polling does it because it's too complicated to poll. People will say you can't come here illegally. But yeah, I don't want to not be able to go to my favorite hotel. So how can we figure out what the. Not just what the right position is, but where the American people are? Is there a way to do that?
- [35:54]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Can I answer a different question?
- [35:56]
Mark Halperin
Sure, sure. That's the rules of this program. That was in your contract. Answer whatever you want, but at least be in the ballpark.
- [36:02]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
I'm not, I'm not an expert on polling. I mean, I imagine you would have to ask complicated questions like if things, if prices would go up by this much, would you go by that much?
- [36:11]
Mark Halperin
Sorry, I'm saying don't do it on polling. Like who would you want to talk to? Would you want to talk to the owners? Would you want to talk to the workers? How would you determine whether Eric's right that other people would take these jobs?
- [36:21]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
I hear from people all the time who are doing these jobs. Do you know the percentage of illegal migrants who represent agricultural workers? From the way both left and right talk about it, you would think it was somewhere around 95% of illegal, of illegal migrants who work in agriculture. Do you want to guess what the actual number is?
- [36:47]
Mark Halperin
40? I guess 25.
- [36:50]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
It's 28%. Which means that 72% of agricultural workers are American citizens. It is disgusting to talk about hardworking people like their jobs are beneath them. And we're seeing now already that since President Trump took office, 2 million more Americans are in the workforce and 500,000 fewer illegals. It turns out they were taking jobs from Americans. It turns out they were driving down the wages. So this whole narrative that these people don't have workers is nonsense. There's a shortage not of labor, there's a shortage of cheap labor. Now the question of inflation in terms of food is a really important one. Let's separate out agriculture from hotels, okay? Because like, give me a break, it's around similar. 28% of people who clean hotels are illegals. So I'm sorry, but those hotels that are employing illegals, they will just have to pay Americans a little bit more money to attract them to fill up that 28% or what have you. Those people work really hard and deserve good wages. When it comes to agriculture, all of the small farms, all of the medium sized farms, all of the farms that are owned by families, they all employ legal American workers. It's the massive multibillion dollar corporations that are demanding a slave cast in order to do those jobs. And I think caving to them, to those people, you might as well be a Democrat.
- [38:23]
Mark Halperin
Eric, it's the OG maga. I get your principled position on who should be deported, but where do you think the country is? Do you think the country agrees with you?
- [38:33]
Donald Trump
No, no, no. I think it's a moment in time. I think maga, America first populist movement is very, very strong and may last for a long moment, so to speak. But that's where we are right now. I think the country is probably far more, let's call it libertarian. Mark, at Fox, I once put out an idea and it got a lot of steam on, on Capitol Hill. The 12 or 15 or 20 million illegals who are here already, we should offer them not a pathway to citizenship but, but an asylum where they can stay. They're not going to become citizens unless legal.
- [39:07]
Mark Halperin
Some sort of legal status.
- [39:08]
Donald Trump
Some sort of legal status. We're not going to get deported, but they can continue to work in these jobs. And you easily implement this at the driver's bureaus in every single state. You're illegal. You want to turn yourself in. Here I'm legal, here's my paperwork. I know I'm not going to become a citizen and vote right away, but I'm going to pay taxes and I don't have to worry about being deported anymore. I think that's where most Americans are.
- [39:32]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Oh, no, Eric, I'm sorry, you're so. You are so wrong about that. There have been five polls in the last six months asking Americans should every single illegal alien be deported? And the numbers of Support on these five polls ranged from 55% to 60.
- [39:50]
Mark Halperin
This is, this is what the president would call bullshit. Because yeah, they would say should the law, basically. Do you think the law should be adhered to? They'd agree. But then if you'd say the lady who sews your buttons on, do you want her deported, she's here illegally, they'd say, well, no, she's valuable.
- [40:06]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
That's why I think percentage of those workable on this, the percentage of people who are employing illegal migrants are accounted for in the 35% who oppose it. That's the elites. You think that regular people working working class jobs in the heartland are employing illegal aliens.
- [40:28]
Mark Halperin
Taking care of their kids.
- [40:29]
Donald Trump
If you add on to that question, would you want anyone who's illegal? Period, you hear illegally, you want them deported. And the backside of that on with the understanding that your food prices will go up anywhere between I don't know, 5 to 7%. So your, your, your eggs, your 250 eggs this week may be, you know, $2.80 or $3. You might get a different polling number. Exactly is how you frame the question. Who delivers the, the polling? As Mark will obviously tell you, the question is how, how do you, how, how to the letter of the law do you want to be? And are you willing to risk the greater economy, maybe even inflation, etcetera, for that?
- [41:11]
Mark Halperin
Let me say two things and then we're going to move to a different topic. First, I wasn't saying. What you were saying was bullshit. I was making a joke. I was making a joke.
- [41:17]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
You can say what I'm saying.
- [41:20]
Mark Halperin
I was saying I was making a joke. But the president used it twice this week. But I just feel that way about the polling on this issue, as I said, because I think people have split views. They don't want the law broken. And second on this is, Eric, the thing you said about legal status. As you know, there are people who consider themselves super OG MAGA who think that's amnesty. But that is, I think that's where most politicians are, except for the ones who feel heat from the left and the right. And I think that's where the country would be if there was a big national discussion.
- [41:49]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
I think so. You guys, I hear from people all the time who agree with the polls. And by the way, you're saying the polls don't mean anything. While the number has gone up from 38% in 2016 to 55% today, does it not mean anything?
- [42:03]
Mark Halperin
That poll, if you walk, it does. If you. Because it's been in the news. If you walk everybody through the realities of deporting the second 10 million, the realities that will impact them for the second 10 million, I don't believe people would say they should be deported.
- [42:19]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
I just want to say one more thing about this. We can move on. I was talking to a truck driver a couple months ago about tariffs, and I think he encapsulated a feeling that I hear a lot from normies, like regular people, people who are not following anything too closely. What he said to me was, so you're telling me that if I pay a little bit more money now for certain goods or services, my kid will have a better shot at the American dream? And you think I'm gonna turn that down? I am a working class man. My whole life is about sacrificing for my child. That is the point of it. Like, I think he's. Guys are totally wrong about this. And I think all the politicians, you're right, except for Trump, are totally in the amnesty camp and they're completely divorced from where 60% of Americans are at.
- [43:05]
Mark Halperin
All right. You and I in August are going to go to Southern Illinois and talk to real people, see what they say. All right. We're going to set this next topic up with some short answers, like one or two. Yes. No answers to my questions, just so the audience can understand where you're coming from. Did Joe Bacha first. Did Joe Biden suffer acuity decline during his four years in office? Yeah. Eric. Extreme.
- [43:28]
Donald Trump
Not. Yes.
- [43:29]
Mark Halperin
Okay, okay. BOA. Did people around Joe Biden work to try to minimize the public's awareness of his acuity decline? Yes or no, Eric?
- [43:38]
Donald Trump
100%. Yes.
- [43:39]
Mark Halperin
Okay. Was one of the people naturally inescapably involved with that? The president's, the guy was the President's doctor at the White House all four years. Would he have had to have been involved in those efforts on some level?
- [43:52]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Yeah.
- [43:52]
Mark Halperin
Eric. Okay. Was the information released by the Biden White House about the President's physical and his general health, on the face of it, incomplete?
- [44:03]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Yes.
- [44:04]
Donald Trump
Yes.
- [44:04]
Mark Halperin
All right. We all agree. So this week the President's doctor, Joe Biden's doctor is subpoenaed to come before a committee in Capitol Hill led by the Republicans. And he says, I'm not going to answer your questions because of the Fifth Amendment right to not self incriminate and because of doctor patient confidentiality. This story is barely covered by the media. Now, I know part of the reason why some of the media went covered, but even the conservative media. This to me was a massive moment in a serious reckoning that might take place. Not to embarrass Joe Biden, not to violate his privacy as a patient, but to make sure that the country never again, the media and the politicians, never again sit back and allow the country to be put at risk by someone in the job suffering an acuity decline. Eric, what am I missing? Why is there not, in the wake of the guy taking the Fifth, why is there not a massive national uproar over this?
- [45:03]
Donald Trump
Well, because the vast majority of the national media leans left or center left. And I'll give you a great example. Jake Tapper, four years excoriated. Lara Trump defended Joe Biden's mental acuity. Even Joe, Joe Scarborough did the same thing. And in hindsight, these people, Tapper is going to write a book saying that we, we screwed up. Well, you were the prime reason the left wing media lied to the American people to hide Joe Biden's demise. So they, they clearly the left wing media, there's nothing in their narrative that they want to show that Joe Biden, they were wrong. They lied for four years. They were covering up. So they have an interest to not tell the story on the right. I think we do tell, tell the, the story and we, we do it the best we can. Here's the issue though. You can't change it. There's nothing you can do about the HIPAA law that allows a doctor to not expose the, the, the ailments of, of his patient. And we all know politicians lie. They lie up and down, left and right, down the middle. You know, everyone L. They all lie. Their mouth is moving, they're lying and then in their handlers are lying. And yes, they did cover up. But guess what? I'm pretty sure Donald Trump isn't like 6, 3, you know, 204 pounds. But that's what they kind of say after those, those health exams.
- [46:19]
Mark Halperin
He needs the bowling diet.
- [46:23]
Donald Trump
I don't know. It's pretty severe.
- [46:24]
Mark Halperin
Bacha, I'm confused because Eric's right that the press was complicit and shamelessly people are now saying, oh my God, look at this cover up that we sat silently when it was all happening on C Span. But the press now seems bought into the notion that there was a cover up. Here's the doctor who, just to give one example, either he gave the guy a cancer screening and lied about the results and lied about whether they did it, or he should lose his medical license for not giving the President of the United States a cancer screening. This seems pretty basic. And the press seems now to, because of these books and what some Democratic politicians have said, the press now seems open to the story that there was an attempt to cover it up. So why isn't there an aggressive reporting to say how can this doctor refuse to tell the truth even now?
- [47:15]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
It's a really good question. I don't have the answer. I do have a question for you guys, which is he took the fifth, which suggests he thinks he may have committed a crime. What was the crime that he would have committed?
- [47:28]
Mark Halperin
I can't even invent one. Now they say, you know, that the President Trump has ordered there to be an investigation. So maybe out of an abundance of caution, but I don't know what law could be broken. Eric, do you have any idea what law could have been broken? No.
- [47:41]
Donald Trump
He uses the fifth Amendment to not test. That's also if you perceive, you know, if the individual, the subject, the Citizen constitutional right. You have the constitutional right not to answer if you perceive there could be a threat against yourself because of what you testified. And all he did was he made, he just put the shield up that he knew you could hide behind. As far as not testifying, guess what? No one's going to be able to get what actually happened behind closed doors or his test results unless the doctor decides to break the HIPAA rule, which at which point he would lose his medical license anyway.
- [48:11]
Mark Halperin
You think we'll ever hear from this guy? There are, there's some dispute about whether HIPAA applies in this case, in every, every question.
- [48:17]
Donald Trump
Why? How could it not? How could it not?
- [48:19]
Mark Halperin
Because he's under congressional subpoena.
- [48:22]
Donald Trump
Oh, yeah, okay, right.
- [48:24]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Like to me this, this should be treated like refusing the subpoena because he, there's no crime he's being accused of. So by what right does he invoke the Fifth Amendment? There's no self incrimination here. So that to me, this should read like a refusal. I don't know why this, he's being allowed to skate on this.
- [48:40]
Mark Halperin
All right, let me ask you about one more topic, which is the topic of my reported monologue from earlier in the program about Donald Trump's decision making. Where would you rank Donald Trump as a decision maker compared to his six predecessors, the two Bushes, Clinton, Obama, Biden? How would you rank him as a decision? As a quality decision maker. Bacha.
- [49:01]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Incredible. I've never seen somebody operating at this level.
- [49:04]
Mark Halperin
I would say give me an example or two of a decision and a process that you think demonstrates that.
- [49:10]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
Somebody once told me something that I think was attributed to Jeff Bezos, that he has this view that it's better to make the wrong decision quickly than to agonize and lose a lot of time over trying to make the right decision. Because if you're willing to self correct, you're going to be much more efficient that way. Get a lot more done and you're going to be correcting based on actual information rather than your perception of what might happen or what might go wrong. And I think we're really seeing that it's both his willingness and his confidence to take big decisions that reflect exactly what he thinks was the mandate given to him by the American people. But also as we've seen both with foreign policy and with the tariffs, to be nimble in his thinking, to self correct to ignore the taunting of the tacos or what have you and say, look, new information has come to light. This is now how I'm going to proceed, whether it's Iran, whether it's Ukraine and Russia, whether it's the tariffs, gently massaging the policy so that it's still in line with what the American people asked for, but more reactive and responsive to new information. It's just complete and utter brilliance like that we're seeing. I've never seen somebody operate at this level.
- [50:24]
Mark Halperin
Brilliantly stated. No decisions ever final for Donald Trump. Eric, how would you rate Trump as a decision maker?
- [50:31]
Donald Trump
So, Mark, in 2015 into 2015 into 2016, I was at Fox and I was likely the only human being who thought he should win and was going to win. And my point was he's a businessman. We've had politicians forever. People who say they're. They care about the economy. They don't know. They wouldn't even know how to. They couldn't even define inflation if they had to. I wanted to see what a businessman in office would do. And he's proven himself in four years in the first term, especially in the five months in this term that he understands things. He sees things that we don't even see. I'll give you two good examples of decisions he made that I thought were terrible ideas are turning out to be smart ideas. Number one, the tariffs. I hate tariffs. I'm a free marketeer. I just, I think the, the world will adjust prices based on supply, demand, and other government influences. That's why I like less government influence. I hated the tariffs. So far, I'm wrong. So I caveat that with. So far, I don't think we know the exact extent of the damage of the tariffs yet. But we, we may. And so far I'm wrong. But he, he saw something I didn't see and I've been doing it for a long time. The other one was bombing Iran. Like, I felt the smart thing to do was support Israel in any way, shape or effectively. Money, assets, intel, support Israel, let them take care of Iran. He did it. I thought that would open it up to a greater potential conflict. I was wrong. It was surgical. It looks like it's come and gone and it's done with two great decisions as far as, as opposed to Obama or certainly Biden, even the Bushes, I think Trump, I think, was. I think I was prescient to say that the guy who runs the country the way he would run a business was the best thing for the country. And maybe going forward, you may never see another politician in that spot. You might see business people with personalities, by the way, with electric personalities as potential presidents going forward.
- [52:23]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, but Maybe not the same caliber of decision makers. We shall see. Eric, where can people, where and when can people see bowling?
- [52:29]
Donald Trump
Oh, you can see it every day on RAV4 to 5pm Eastern. And then we take that and Fox Corporation picks it up and distributes it across Rumble, YouTube, Tubi, Pluto, everywhere else. So we're everywhere but it's bowling. Yeah. Thanks, Mark.
- [52:44]
Mark Halperin
Okay, bacha, where can we see your program and your content?
- [52:47]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
You can tune in and see me at the group chat at 2way, the most exciting new platform in which not only does our show have the full spectrum of opinion relevant to American life, but we also take calls from you, the viewers. So join us at group Chat.
- [53:02]
Mark Halperin
Awesome. I'm grateful to you both for being on. I hope you'll come back and, and, and I, I consider you to be now the Batman and Robin of political commentary.
- [53:11]
Donald Trump
Thank you about you.
- [53:12]
Mark Halperin
Thank you for being here. Thank you.
- [53:13]
Bhatia Ungar Sargon
God bless Mark. Thank you.
- [53:15]
Mark Halperin
Thank you. All right, next up, Beyonce's brother Michael Knowles will be here and we'll talk about everything. That's next up. Sadly for too many, the American dream has changed. You can forget the white picket fence. For most Americans, the real drama now is getting out of debt. If you're feeling the pressure from rising prices, mounting credit card debt and just trying to stay afloat every day, I want you to know one thing. There is a way out. Done with debt. They've got just one goal. To break you free from debt permanently. They're not pushing loans or bankruptcy on you. Instead, they're tough negotiators. Go straight to to your creditors, slashing what you owe, wiping out interest and eliminating penalties. And they do not stop until your debt is gone. The very best part of all this is most clients of theirs see more money in their pocket the very first month. You've worked too hard to let debt steal your future. With done with debt, your dream of being debt free is actually a reality. Visit donewithdet.com talk with one of their experts. It is completely free to consult. Some of their solutions are time sensitive though. So you don't want to wait right now. Go to donewithdebt.com Again, that's donewithdebt.com Want.
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- [55:13]
Mark Halperin
Well, next up is a haunting historical confluence. When I was a boy, there was this thing with Lincoln and Kennedy and their assassinations and all the spooky overlaps between the circumstances of their deaths and their lives. Today reminds me of that. Our guest today is a graduate of an Ivy League school. He is a father of son. He is wearing almost identical clothes I'm wearing and he hosts a podcast with his name in it. Our biggest difference is I think cigars are foul and he makes money off of them. Joining us now, next up, Michael Knows, host of the Michael Knows show. Not as I said in the tease to the segment, Beyonce's brother, but nonetheless, glad to have you.
- [55:54]
Michael Knowles
Distant cousin. Distant cousin, really. Thank you for having me. Good to be here. I'm sorry, I have to. If we weren't separated by the system of pneumatic tubes called the Internet, I could hand you one of my Mayflower cigars and convince you otherwise.
- [56:07]
Mark Halperin
But I would, I would try to sell it if there's any value to me. I could spend the whole time talking to you about smoking. I just, I understand smoking as much as I understand the appeal of a man in uniform. You know what, what do you get out of filling your, filling your lungs with carcinogenics?
- [56:25]
Michael Knowles
Well, no, you don't fill the lungs with cigars. It's all, it's all in the mouth and the chest. And there are a pithy way to put it was put forward by the theologian Mr. Foley, Mike Foley, who said that the three types of smoke correspond to the tripartite soul. The pipe is for the logical part. You know, it's the philosopher. The cigarettes, they're the appetitive part. It's an addiction. But the cigars, it's the thumotic element, the spirited element of the soul. It will make you into Winston Churchill. And if that doesn't sell you on the cigars, I got nothing else.
- [56:57]
Mark Halperin
Hot, hot smoke in my, in my chest, I still don't get. But thank you for trying. Thank you for trying. I will say that in my career as a reporter, I don't golf. I don't hunt. I don't smoke cigars. It's amazing. I have a single source.
- [57:11]
Michael Knowles
It's shocking.
- [57:12]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, I know.
- [57:13]
Donald Trump
What do you.
- [57:13]
Michael Knowles
What do you do? Iced teas.
- [57:15]
Mark Halperin
Now I take them to really good restaurants. That's been the one thing I have because I do love to eat, as is a parent. If you're watching. If you're watching the show rather than listening to it, tell folks about the Michael Noel Show. How long has it been around? What good does it do?
- [57:28]
Michael Knowles
It's been around forever. I realized this recently. In my mind, I'm still 19, but I realized, as you mentioned earlier, I have three young kids. I'm an old man now. I'm 35. And this show has been on the air for something like eight years. The way it launched was I was around Daily Wire when this was just a small little blog. And then I published a blank book called Reasons to Vote for Democrats, a comprehensive guide. Hit number one on the national Amazon chart.
- [57:56]
Mark Halperin
And.
- [57:56]
Michael Knowles
And then President Trump endorsed it. Then I got a book deal, another book deal to buy the rights to Nothing. And then I got a show based on not having written a book. And the book was just a bunch.
- [58:07]
Mark Halperin
Of blank pages, totally blank pages.
- [58:09]
Michael Knowles
I was then offered another book deal. And I said, you're using the word another quite liberally here, because I've done nothing.
- [58:16]
Mark Halperin
This one with words.
- [58:17]
Michael Knowles
This one with words, which was actually about words and was called Speechless, which happily also hit number one. You can get it wherever fine books are sold from the past five years. But it gave me the opportunity to have this show, which what I endeavor to do on the show is hit the news every day, five days a week, same old stuff that everyone's doing. But what I'm really interested in is philosophy and theology. I'm with Cardinal Manning, and I think all politics, ultimately, all human conflict, ultimately is theological. So to me, that's what really gets me going. And especially in this moment, really starting around the time my show started, you had this massive political shift where the American right really kind of reinvented itself or re. Reinvented itself. You know, kind of went back to, I think, an older and more substantive form of conservatism. And so at that moment, you get to examine all of the first principles, all of these intellectual priors. And I think you've seen that play out over time. So a shift away from talking about procedural norms toward a talk about substantive goods, a shift away about what it even means to have a country. You know, when I was A kid, I was told America's just an idea, free floating in outer space. Now we're really examining America as a substantive thing, with geography and people and stuff and traditions. And so I think it's really mapped on to the Trump era. Now, where that leads, I don't know, either to a golden age or to World War Three, I guess.
- [59:43]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. So, again, despite our spooky similarities, you're with Cardinal Manning, I'm with Archie Manning. You see high ideals in politics. I just see a lot of good jokes. But nonetheless, I'm going to go with you on the ideas thing. What's your view of the. You got a decent relationship with Vice President Vance, if I'm not mistaken? Right.
- [60:02]
Michael Knowles
Yes. I'm a great admirer of the vice president. He and I were at Yale at the same time. Actually, we didn't really know each other, but he was at the law school when I was an undergrad, and I think we were probably 50% of the total conservatives that were on campus at that time. I'm not even sure he was conservative at the time.
- [60:17]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, you might have been ordering clam pizza in the same place at one point without knowing it. So I didn't really have much thought about him when he ran for Senate. I was familiar with his detractors and his fans, and I didn't really think all that much about him. And I thought he'd probably win the seat. And then I was struck on the eve of the Republican convention, somewhat overshadowed, of course, by the assassination attempt against the president, that so many really loyal Trump people would come up to me unbidden and say, trump, better not pick this guy. Better not pick. Better not pick him. And then when he was picked, even though the president had just been shot, many of the same people, not charitable and said, horrible idea, horrible pick. That morphs before too long. And certainly now to. I've never seen someone so popular within a party. I've never seen someone where everybody just loves him, they think he's great. And I am so impressed with some of the speeches he's given. I so impressed with the interviews he's done with another intellectual like you, Ross. Stop it. I find his interview, the two interviews he's done with Ross, to be phenomenally interesting and compelling. I found the speech he gave in Europe to our European allies to be one of the best speeches I've ever heard, and I think one of the most important, certainly by a vice president. So I want just your appraisal of. Leaving aside 2028, where does he stand in the project of MAGA, the project of the Republican Party, the project of the conservative movement now.
- [61:40]
Michael Knowles
Well, one, the man is very, very intelligent. And if you've ever not even spoken to him, if you've ever seen him give a speech, I think that is apparent. His IQ is at least a standard deviation or two above the average in.
- [61:54]
Mark Halperin
D.C. and the average Yale graduate and.
- [61:57]
Michael Knowles
Well, certainly about four above the average Yale graduate. And so he's very intelligent. And crucially, he knows what time it is. I think you're seeing this now as we were discussing earlier. As the Republican Party has shifted, as conservatism has shifted, as the national self conception has shifted ahead of the bi sesquicentennial next year, a lot of people seem to be getting left in the dust. There are a lot of politicians who just. They sound like a broken record from 15 years ago. They haven't kept up. It's clear to me that the Vice President sees where things are moving, which is why I was elated when he was picked for the ticket and he was criticized for opposite reasons. When you say not everyone was so happy around the convention. There were people who are stuck in more of the Bush era consensus who I think were upset at Vance because he doesn't agree with a lot of that. But there were also people who were hardcore Trump loyalists who didn't like that Vance was skeptical of Trump in 2016.
- [62:57]
Mark Halperin
Well, more than skeptical. He said he was Hitler. I mean, skeptics, I know. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That we're both those. Keep going. But that's an absolutely true point. And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna ask you to annotate because you're assuming too much knowledge on the point of my viewers and listeners. What is. Knows what time it is means. I know that's a common phrase in Nashville and in your circles, but explain to people what that means because it's really important. And I think it's exactly seminal in answering the question I'm asking, which is, is as. As I think might be true, Vance. Singular, A singular voice in defining the future of conservatives. Mag. And the Republican Party. What does that mean?
- [63:32]
Michael Knowles
He. He's probably the most prominent other than Trump himself. You know, Trump is still. He is the leader of the, of the party and, and he's also rather avant garde in his own way.
- [63:43]
Mark Halperin
Define the phrase, then pick up where you are. And I apologize for interrupting.
- [63:46]
Michael Knowles
No, no, not at all. So the phrase to know what time it is is just to be aware, to be a little woke, to the changes that have gone on, to see where things are headed, to recognize some of the contradictions, some of the tensions, the ideological inconsistencies that we've had in recent politics, and to kind of see where the resolution of those are going.
- [64:09]
Mark Halperin
And to not accept the status quo or the past as defining the future.
- [64:13]
Michael Knowles
That's how I certainly recognizing that what we have understood to be conservatism is no longer really tenable. And so politics is always eternal principles on one hand, but constantly changing circumstances on the other. And so to know what time it is is to recognize those changing circumstances and to be adept at applying eternal principles to those changing circumstances. I think Trump has done that in a magnificent way, and Vance very, very clearly is quite good at it. So, you know, when he was picked, I was elated, and I think he's won over a lot of people, as you point out. I mean, the Trump loyalists recognize this guy is a loyal vp. He is not as many people in the administration have been, especially in the first term. He's not undermining the agenda. He recognizes his role in things, but he's willing to advance, I think, an urgent series of goals, policy goals and objectives for the Republican Party. When he speaks about something like reordering our relationship to NATO in Munich, and does so in a way that's quite brazen and charitable, but pretty blunt, I think most people resonate with that.
- [65:30]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [65:32]
Michael Knowles
When we talk about things like, I don't know, family policy, you know, declining birth rates or something like that, these are urgent questions that have been completely neglected for almost my entire life in politics, despite America having a below replacement birth rate since 1971. So these things, I think the advantage of being smart and having been radicalized at a place like Yale, where you see all the liberal arguments and you can come to reject them in a good way, the upside of that is you can see where things are going. You can speak to that. And I think that speaks to the common sense, which is why he's now popular.
- [66:12]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. The analog I've been thinking about lately is Bill Clinton. And Bill Clinton in the 80s and into the 90s was part of something that Sidney Blumenthal, the New Republic writer, called the Conversation, where he was talking to other elected officials, to public policy people, to academics, to journalists, to all sorts of people about the future of the country. And Clinton put himself at the center of that, and very similar to Vance in terms of his upbringing and then an elite education and then a capacity to understand the private sector, which not every elected official has. And I think about the other people who you would say part of the conversation. I'd say Ted Cruz, intellectually part of the conversation. I'd say Tom Cotton, Marco Rubio a little bit, maybe not as much for a variety of reasons. What those guys don't have, besides not being vice president, which is obviously a big thing, is they're not as happy a warrior as the vice President seems to be. Right. And there's something about that that's super, super appealing to thinking about not just, not just running for president, but being part of the conversation. To be part of the conversation, to be at the center of the conversation. First of all, you have to trust the media, which is of course, often ill advised. And second, if there's some of the media. But second, you have to be well liked because people don't want you to rise if they don't like you. And, and Ted Cruz for sure. And I say that I like both Ted Cruz and Tom Cotton, but it's just a reality. Ted Cruz for sure and Tom Cotton to some extent, they have detractors if you, the vice president. I can't find any detractors in the party as part of the conservative conversation. And to me that helps, besides his brain power, that helps keep him at the center of this thing.
- [67:56]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I think that's fair. You know, I'm a good friend of Senator Cruz of many years, used to host a show with him for a few years. So I actually know for a fact he is quite a happy warrior. And he is a very likable guy and he's established.
- [68:08]
Mark Halperin
I know it too. But as you know, there's, there's that famous joke about him. You know, that famous joke.
- [68:15]
Michael Knowles
I actually, I'm not. I might know.
- [68:17]
Mark Halperin
Why do people take such an instance dislike to Ted Cruz? In order, in order to save time. I've known him since I've known him.
- [68:25]
Michael Knowles
I was actually arguing with a buddy of mine who's very politically involved, and I remember he was making some comment like this about, about Senator Cruz years ago, and I said, you know, so he said something like he doesn't have friends or something. I said, I'm a friend of his.
- [68:38]
Mark Halperin
What are you talking.
- [68:38]
Michael Knowles
He's a great guy, but sure, you.
- [68:40]
Mark Halperin
Know, I like him. I respect him, I think he's hilarious. I played football with him. Not everyone can say that, but you know as well as I do, his college roommates trash him. Like, it's just like a lot of senators don't like him. So you and I can like him. But also accept the reality he's not where the Vice President is in terms of how people in the party feel about it.
- [68:59]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I think I, I do think Vance has. One of the Vice President's advantages is he's a little newer to the scene. And he came up at this moment where the political coalition was shifting. So that can win him friends, and it can win Trump friends that other Republicans have difficulty winning over. You know, the fact that the Trump Vance ticket was able to pull these two Democrat presidential candidates, Bobby Kennedy and Tulsi Gabbard, the fact that they were able to pull over the Maha Crunchies, which when I was a kid, they were always firmly on the left. The vaccine skeptics, you know, these groups come over to them, even parts of Silicon Valley, which obviously the Vice President has some connections to. Because of that, I think it just disrupted what had been a relatively ossified system of coalitions. And that breeds a lot of opportunity. The fact that Vance can do it, having won over liberal Hollywood, having. Yeah, Hillbilly allergy come out. Yeah, that was the toast of New York.
- [70:02]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, 100%.
- [70:02]
Michael Knowles
100% making a movie out of it. I mean, he won that over. And then he said, hey, by the way, guys, I'm going to follow my ideas to their logical conclusion. You might not like where that leads, but it does mean that he's been able to play in a popular way with just about everyone.
- [70:16]
Mark Halperin
I agree. And as you said, and put a button on this, and I want to ask you some other stuff. As you said, it's kind of incredible because last year, last year, as you point out, he had enemies both on the MAGA side and on the establishment side. So to go from having. Being shot at in both sides to having both sides lay garlands and flowers and candies down at his feet, kind of an incredible feat to use the other form of feat. And I don't really, totally understand how it happened. Happened so fast.
- [70:43]
Michael Knowles
I'll tell you how it happened. Same guy. I'll tell you exactly how it happened. It's not just that he is the cleverest, most Metternichian figure.
- [70:51]
Donald Trump
Right.
- [70:52]
Michael Knowles
The way it happened is the guys got the goods. That's how it happened.
- [70:54]
Mark Halperin
Well, but he had the goods a year ago, too. He's the same guy now. He's vice president. So some of it is people sucking up, but it's more than that. It's an incredibly unexplored thing. And if he's, if he gets elected president, and I think today's the Front runner. It'd be incredible story to explain how that happened, which I plan to be the one to tell. All right, I'm going to name a successful person and you tell me in one sentence with no semicolons or colons why they're successful. What's the essence of their reason for success? Ready? Here we go. Joe Rogan, Everyman. Okay. Did it in one word. Excellent.
- [71:24]
Michael Knowles
I did it in one word. He's.
- [71:25]
Mark Halperin
He's the.
- [71:26]
Michael Knowles
He's the median voter.
- [71:27]
Mark Halperin
Everyman.
- [71:28]
Michael Knowles
And it's authentic and so he can. People are on a journey of exploration with him. That is not. He's not below them, he's not above them. He's not condescending. He's just. He's just perfect at it.
- [71:41]
Mark Halperin
Okay.
- [71:41]
Michael Knowles
Beyonce, my cousin. That's why she's popular.
- [71:44]
Mark Halperin
I think that's where she gets all of her. Why is she successful?
- [71:48]
Michael Knowles
I think she's successful because, look, she's good looking and she has a good voice. And she also came up at a time that was. It was 2000s or so. The fact that she's a black woman, I think helped. You know, it's very racially conscious kind of time. I think that she's fashionably liberal. She's not extremely woke liberal. She's just fashionably liberal. When she was coming up, that was a de rigueur. And so she was just a. Perfect for her time. And also she's obviously in the Illuminati.
- [72:22]
Mark Halperin
Taylor Swift.
- [72:25]
Michael Knowles
You know, you got me scratching my head a little bit on that one.
- [72:28]
Mark Halperin
Other.
- [72:28]
Michael Knowles
Other than okay, I've got an answer for it.
- [72:30]
Mark Halperin
Dude, she's a. She's an incredible lyricist. You can just say that.
- [72:34]
Michael Knowles
I was gonna.
- [72:35]
Mark Halperin
Okay. Are you not a Swift? Are you not a Swiftie at all for your national neighbor?
- [72:39]
Michael Knowles
Listen. De gustibus non disputanta, master.
- [72:41]
Mark Halperin
No, you know, my father thing. My father's version of that is. Some people even like chocolate ice cream. Okay.
- [72:48]
Michael Knowles
No, I'll tell you why though. I'll tell you why. Because she's. She's temperamentally conservative. That's why people like to popular.
- [72:54]
Mark Halperin
But I don't care if you don't like her music, dude, she's a brilliant lyricist. You have to just.
- [72:57]
Michael Knowles
Are you being.
- [72:58]
Mark Halperin
I can't tell if you're being 100.
- [73:00]
Michael Knowles
Stop it.
- [73:00]
Mark Halperin
She's a brilliant lyricist.
- [73:02]
Michael Knowles
Really. Maybe I need to listen more.
- [73:04]
Mark Halperin
Don't forget Shake It Off. That's just a pop Diddy. Her other songs, brilliant lyrics. Okay, Next would be Elon Musk.
- [73:14]
Michael Knowles
Well, affirmative action because he's an African American. Of course it has the only explanation. He. He's the really confounded.
- [73:25]
Mark Halperin
I keep saying, dude, he's one of the smartest people on the planet. That's the answer. That's it.
- [73:29]
Michael Knowles
That's all. But there's plenty of smart people.
- [73:31]
Mark Halperin
He's got brilliance and drive and vision.
- [73:34]
Michael Knowles
You know what? Yes. Don't you think though, if you look, he's got, he's, he's extremely intelligent. He's driven like a maniac. He's all these things.
- [73:41]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [73:41]
Michael Knowles
Don't you think growing, growing up in South Africa with a, an imposing father. Don't you think that played a role too? This guy just fights off every attack.
- [73:50]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, but that part of his determinant reason for his determination, probably. All right. Anthony Volpe. Yankee shortstop Anthony Volpe. I asked. He's my neighbor. That's why I chose him.
- [74:00]
Michael Knowles
He is your neighbor?
- [74:01]
Mark Halperin
He is. He lives in my building.
- [74:02]
Michael Knowles
You're kidding me.
- [74:03]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. It's kind of funny.
- [74:05]
Michael Knowles
Yo.
- [74:05]
Mark Halperin
There was a young. I live in a building with a bunch of old people and you're a big Yankee fan. That's why I'm bringing it up. And I bring down the median age of our building by a lot. And there was some nice young man we would see on the elevator moved in. It's like, has this kid affording living in this building where a bunch of old people. Not just a Ford. It's not that expensive a building, but it's like the apartments don't turn over very often. It's like, who's this young kid?
- [74:28]
Michael Knowles
I won't say, like I'll bring over cigars or whatever and I'll make you smoke cigarettes. But you have to let me come hang out so that I can just maybe possibly run into Volpe in the hallway. You know, part of the reason I think Volpe is successful, other than he's a great athlete, is he's got a little bit of that Jeter thing where he's just kind of like a clean cut kid and he seems young and he's just, you know, he's like very wholesome. There's some like really kind of more grizzled baseball players, you know, but he. No, he's not that. He's like, he looks like he just got out of Little League, you know?
- [74:58]
Mark Halperin
Totally agree. And also he's got, you know, he grew up in the New York area. He's got like a, he's got like a, like a tactic, like a tactician. Focus on the nuts. And bolts of the game.
- [75:07]
Michael Knowles
Yes. Also, wasn't. I could be confusing him with another Yankee. Isn't there a picture of him at, like, age 9 at the world Series or something? Or, you know, at a Yankee?
- [75:17]
Mark Halperin
Could be. Could be.
- [75:18]
Michael Knowles
There's something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
- [75:19]
Mark Halperin
I'm meeting cheater or something. I don't know the answer to that. Ben Shapiro.
- [75:23]
Michael Knowles
Ben Shapiro. Because he's got me by his side. I would say that's the main reason.
- [75:28]
Mark Halperin
You're the Knowles behind the man.
- [75:30]
Michael Knowles
Yes. I asked my wife once, 10 years ago when. When Ben was really exploding. I said, why is Ben. You know, he's got this. I've talked to him. He's got this voice. Look, he's obviously doing something right, but he's got this voice that he's not exactly Dean Martin or. So why does it.
- [75:48]
Mark Halperin
So what's the answer? What'd your wife say?
- [75:50]
Michael Knowles
And he's a Jew in a Christian country. And he's. And she told me. And it all kind of ties in.
- [75:55]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [75:56]
Michael Knowles
She said, michael, in an age of insanity, people just want a nerdy Jew to tell them facts. And I said, that is so accurate. And even, you know, even I kind of joke about Jew in a Christian country. But even that distance kind of gives Ben the ability to look at things and have a really kind of even disinterested view of how things are going on.
- [76:18]
Mark Halperin
For most political issues, I'm talking to the control room. Please clip that one off for social media. Yeah, that's the one. Okay. Steve Bannon. Bannon.
- [76:28]
Michael Knowles
He's just a complete political animal.
- [76:30]
Donald Trump
Right?
- [76:30]
Michael Knowles
He. Oddly enough, Steve Bannon is one of the few people in Republican politics who I don't really know that well. But he's just a complete killer, right? I mean, that. He's just this. He's obviously extremely intelligent.
- [76:44]
Mark Halperin
You remember, I said no. I said no colons or semicolons.
- [76:47]
Michael Knowles
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
- [76:48]
Mark Halperin
He's an animal. Just stop with animal. That's it. Charlie. Charlie Kirk.
- [76:53]
Michael Knowles
Charlie Kirk was bred in a petri dish for conservative Republican politics.
- [76:59]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [76:59]
Michael Knowles
Charlie Kirk's education. Charlie's a good friend of mine. Charlie's education was going to right wing events, think tank events, donor events, rally type events, and he. He later became something of an autodidact. He did the Lincoln Fellowship at the Claremont Institute. You know, he got. He got a fair bit of book learning there. But from age 2 or whatever, when he was made in this petri dish in, you know, somewhere at the Heritage.
- [77:24]
Mark Halperin
Foundation, he got it all. He's got it all.
- [77:25]
Michael Knowles
He got it all.
- [77:26]
Mark Halperin
He got it all. He's. He is the. He is the Michael Jordan of whatever it is he does. Okay. Jen Psaki.
- [77:34]
Michael Knowles
Jen Psaki was pretty good, so I don't. She wasn't the greatest press secretary ever, but.
- [77:40]
Mark Halperin
But she's pretty successful now. And I'm asking you why.
- [77:43]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I mean, she's on. She's on that network that gets like three viewers a day or something, but that's okay. She.
- [77:47]
Donald Trump
You know.
- [77:48]
Michael Knowles
Do you know why she is. She's the girl next door.
- [77:52]
Mark Halperin
She.
- [77:53]
Michael Knowles
I thought when. Especially in her last job, she. Even though you knew she was kind of lying to you, and you could see her prevaricating all the time and constantly evading and circling back, it didn't matter.
- [78:04]
Mark Halperin
That's what the girl next door does. She lies all the time. Hey, do you guys have any sugar left? We need some sugar. We're making a pie. No, no, we got no sugar.
- [78:11]
Michael Knowles
We'll circle back to your sugar.
- [78:12]
Mark Halperin
We'll circle back. When we go to the store. We'll get you some sugar. Those guys who do that podcast, what are they called? The Crooked Whatever.
- [78:18]
Michael Knowles
Oh, the Crooked guys.
- [78:20]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. What's the secret of their success?
- [78:22]
Michael Knowles
They're the. The liberal guys. The Pod Save.
- [78:25]
Mark Halperin
Pod Save America. Yeah. What's the secret?
- [78:26]
Michael Knowles
Oh, because they are. They are just the arch typal millennial fashionable libs, so.
- [78:36]
Mark Halperin
They are.
- [78:36]
Michael Knowles
They're not. You know.
- [78:37]
Mark Halperin
They're not. They're filling the demand side for that. There's some demand for that.
- [78:42]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. No, there. There still is. It's the. I remember when I was in college and everyone loved Barack Obama, and it was all these kids who were 22 and whatever. 20. And they grew up watching the West Wing, that horrific show by Aaron Sorkin, and they just grew up with that. And then they needed something to fill the West Wing gap, and Barack Obama was the guy who filled the West Wing gap, and now Obama's done and these guys are aging, and now we need the Pod Bros to fill in that gap. There's nothing avant garde about it whatsoever, but it's a kind of a nostalgia, really.
- [79:12]
Mark Halperin
All right, two more. Then we gotta go. Beethoven.
- [79:15]
Michael Knowles
Beethoven. Well, well, he was deaf, which allowed him to tune out all the people who were. Who were trying to bother him all day. It's like when I try to write my show and all these people at the Daily Wire come in and bother me. He was deaf, so he got to just focus on composing.
- [79:29]
Mark Halperin
All right, lastly, you get a choice. I'll give you two, you can pick whichever one you want. The Beatles or aoc. Which one you want to do chocolate.
- [79:40]
Michael Knowles
Ice cream or medieval torture? I. The Beatles. I love the Beatles.
- [79:48]
Mark Halperin
Why are they successful?
- [79:51]
Michael Knowles
So they are technically perfect at everything they did at a reasonably high level, but not so high that it eluded the mainstream.
- [80:07]
Mark Halperin
That's.
- [80:07]
Michael Knowles
It's kind of like.
- [80:08]
Mark Halperin
It's like Rolex. I think that's the perfect explanation of why AOC is successful as well. Where. Where can. You'll play it back, you'll see. Where can. That's good. Where can people access and how can people access the.
- [80:20]
Michael Knowles
Michael knows they can go to Daily Wire. Of course. That's where the show is. It's also on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, I think AOL, Instant Messenger, MySpace, LiveJournal and Zanga. They can find me on twitter@michael jnoles. They can find links to all my stuff@michaeljnols.com and most importantly then go check out Mayflower Cigars.
- [80:42]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, we can buy all the cigars you want there. Although the prices will give you sticker shock. I have to be honest. They know if you don't know exactly. I meant the reverse sticker shock. What does the J stand for?
- [80:52]
Michael Knowles
The J stands for John.
- [80:53]
Mark Halperin
John with an H. With an H.
- [80:56]
Michael Knowles
Not with a. Yeah and a space.
- [80:59]
Mark Halperin
And your one, your one bit of advice for how to be a good dad would be what?
- [81:08]
Michael Knowles
Show up. Which I have to tell myself all the time because when I want to stay late, I want to go on that trip. I want to go do where it's mostly work is what takes me away from it. But I see, I go away on a two day trip and I come back and my kids look different because when they're little they change all the time and I don't. I make that. That one hour a night or two hours a night. Wrestle them around, throw them in the shower, whatever you gotta do.
- [81:30]
Mark Halperin
Whatever you gotta do. I. I will say this last question is a rhetorical question. I wonder why. I am regularly on Charlie Kirk's podcast, which I'm about to be after we finish up here. And I've never been on yours. With that. With that.
- [81:41]
Donald Trump
Wow.
- [81:42]
Mark Halperin
I say Mr. Knowles couldn't have enjoyed it more. I'm hoping you'll come back like on a regular basis and we can just update on JD Vance and Ted Cruz or whatever. Whatever. Whatever else we want to discuss who's winning at foosball and football. I'm very grateful to you for making Time Love having you on and again. Truly hope you'll come back on a regular basis.
- [82:01]
Michael Knowles
Well, thank you, Mark. Good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
- [82:03]
Mark Halperin
All right, that was Michael Knowles. According to Google, he is not, I repeat, he is not Beyonce's cousin, but a great guest and loved having him on and loved having you be here. This program, again, very similar Michael Knowles program. You can watch it almost anywhere. I'd listen to it almost anywhere. But please, like, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And NextUp is brought to you by lots of people which you've heard from today. Check us out on YouTube, YouTube.com@nextup. Halperin and I will see you next week with at least two more episodes. You never know. We'll just do as many as we feel we need to. Thank you for being part of nexties. Have a good week.