Waltz OUT as NSA... Could Witkoff Be Next Up? Plus, Gavin Newsom on Why He's Not a "Crazy Liberal"

Summary

Next Up with Mark Halperin Episode: Waltz OUT as NSA... Could Witkoff Be Next Up? Plus, Gavin Newsom on Why He's Not a "Crazy Liberal" Release Date: May 1, 2025

Hosted by Mark Davis and Jessica Milan Patterson

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1. National Security Advisor Shake-Up

Mark Davis opens the episode with a breaking news segment about President Donald Trump's decision to replace his National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz. Waltz, who was initially praised for his strong reputation, has faced criticism over his management style and competence, particularly highlighted by his role in the controversial Signal chat group.

• Mark Davis [02:15]: "The decision to get rid of Waltz has been percolating for a long time. It wasn't about ideology but about process and competence."

The discussion delves into the potential successor, Steve Witkoff, a businessman with close ties to Trump. While some in the administration support Witkoff for his negotiating prowess, others doubt his qualifications, leading to speculation about inter-party maneuvering.

• Mark Davis [08:30]: "Steve Witkoff is completely unqualified to be at the highest level of American national security."

Davis speculates that negative media coverage, such as a recent New York Post article, may be an attempt to derail Witkoff's candidacy, reflecting internal conflicts within the Trump administration.

2. Presidential Politics: Eyes on 2028

Transitioning to the broader political landscape, Jessica Milan Patterson and Mark Davis discuss the upcoming 2028 presidential race. They highlight the Republican frontrunner, J.D. Vance, and the open field within the Democratic Party.

• Mark Davis [10:45]: "Understanding the universe of possible people, my track record suggests knowing who isn't going to be the nominee."

Davis emphasizes the importance of candidates being part of the national conversation, citing Barack Obama's successful navigation of various media platforms as a benchmark for effective presidential campaigning.

3. In-Depth with Governor Gavin Newsom

A significant portion of the episode features an extensive interview with Governor Gavin Newsom of California. The conversation centers on dispelling common myths about Newsom, his political strategies, and his vision for California and potential national ambitions.

Myth-Busting

• Jessica Milan Patterson [31:00]: "It's a myth that you're far to the left of the country."
• Gavin Newsom [32:36]: "I'm a pragmatist. I'm a small business owner. The notion that I'm a wild-haired liberal is nonsense."

Newsom counters accusations of being overly liberal by highlighting his fiscal policies, such as opposing wealth taxes and supporting small businesses, while maintaining strong progressive stances on social issues.

Presidential Ambitions

Addressing speculation about his presidential run, Newsom clarifies his stance:

• Gavin Newsom [38:22]: "I am someone that's trying to pursue the unknown. I'm open to argument and learning, but I haven't declared my intentions."

He emphasizes the importance of having a compelling vision and personal motivation before considering a presidential campaign.

Economic and Social Policies

Newsom provides insights into California's economic standing, debunking myths about the state's decline and highlighting its status as the fourth-largest economy globally.

• Gavin Newsom [30:46]: "California is the fourth largest economy in the world... we dominate in every major industry in the United States."

He also discusses challenges such as housing affordability and homelessness, attributing some issues to local governance and emphasizing the state's proactive measures.

• Gavin Newsom [42:46]: "States' vision realized through states... we've been deeply focused on getting things done."

Trade and Tariffs

Newsom shares his perspectives on the current trade war with China, critiquing the administration's approach to tariffs and advocating for a more strategic long-term leverage.

• Gavin Newsom [50:25]: "I don't think he has a tremendous amount of leverage. The asymmetry in trade needs to be addressed more strategically."

4. Conversations with Jessica Reed Kraus and Jessica Milan Patterson

The episode further features dialogues with Jessica Reed Kraus, an independent journalist, and Jessica Milan Patterson, former chair of the California Republican Party. They discuss the state of California, critiques of the Democratic administration, and their perspectives on the Trump administration.

State of California

Jessica Reed Kraus and Jessica Milan Patterson express concerns over California's governance, highlighting issues like housing shortages, homelessness, and population decline.

• Jessica Milan Patterson [59:27]: "The Golden State is not quite as golden as it used to be... Californians are waking up and they're ready for some change."

They discuss potential Republican candidates who could address these challenges, suggesting that Silicon Valley entrepreneurs might hold the key to revitalizing the state's political landscape.

Views on the Trump Administration

The Jessicas provide their takes on the Trump administration, with Kraus expressing fascination with its unconventional style and Patterson critiquing its policies.

• Jessica Reed Kraus [80:53]: "This is the greatest stage and the greatest show on earth right now."
• Jessica Milan Patterson [74:22]: "Stay off the Signal. That was an unforced error."

Their conversation touches on the administration's handling of various issues, including social media regulation and the influence of key figures like Suzy Wiles.

5. Closing Remarks

Mark Davis wraps up the episode by thanking guests and listeners, teasing upcoming content, and encouraging audience engagement on various platforms.

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Notable Quotes

• Mark Davis [02:15]: "It wasn't about ideology but about process and competence."
• Jessica Milan Patterson [31:00]: "It's a myth that you're far to the left of the country."
• Gavin Newsom [32:36]: "I'm a pragmatist. I'm a small business owner. The notion that I'm a wild-haired liberal is nonsense."
• Jessica Milan Patterson [59:27]: "The Golden State is not quite as golden as it used to be."
• Gavin Newsom [50:25]: "I don't think he has a tremendous amount of leverage."

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Key Takeaways

• National Security Shake-Up: President Trump is set to replace his National Security Advisor, with Steve Witkoff being a potential candidate, amidst internal disagreements over competence and process.

• 2028 Presidential Race: The Republican field appears to be consolidating around J.D. Vance, while the Democratic side remains open, with emphasis on candidates' ability to engage in national conversations.

• Governor Newsom's Stance: Governor Gavin Newsom refutes myths portraying him as overly liberal, emphasizes California's economic strength, and addresses challenges like housing and homelessness. He remains open but undecided about a presidential run.

• California's Political Climate: Former Republican chair Jessica Milan Patterson and independent journalist Jessica Reed Kraus discuss California's governance issues, advocating for new leadership potentially from Silicon Valley's entrepreneurial sector.

• Trump Administration Analysis: The guests provide mixed views on the Trump administration, appreciating its dynamic presence while critiquing certain policies and strategies.

This episode offers a comprehensive look into current political dynamics, both at the national security level and within the broader context of upcoming elections and state governance, featuring in-depth insights from prominent political figures.

Transcript

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[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Welcome in Everybody. This is season one, episode two of NextUp. Thank you for watching. We are doing quite well on the Apple Podcast ratings. Very grateful to folks for listening to us on your favorite podcast, network and platform and for watching on YouTube. Thank you for being part of helping us launch NextUp. We couldn't be more grateful today on the program. Some breaking news that we broke earlier today on two Way, where I am Editor in Chief about President Trump's plans to replace his National Security Advisor. I'll have more details on that. And Gavin Newsom will be here as our as our guest California Governor to talk about what he thinks are the myths related to Gavin Newsom. I think there's some myths that are pretty important that I want to see what he thinks and with us to have a roundtable conversation. My two favorite Jessica's from California, Jessica Blond Patterson, who until recently was the chair of the California Republican Party and the great Jessica Reed Krause Substacker and Instagram are extraordinaire. We'll talk about the state of the Golden State and what they think of what's happened so far in the Trump administration. I'm also going to talk about running for president and what I think is important to think about if you want to be a pro handicapper, particularly for the Democrats in 2028. So thank you for being here. Let's get started. First news I broke earlier today, what we like to call a worldwide exclusive President Trump, after a long period of consideration, is getting rid of his national security advisor, Mike Waltz, who came in to the job with an incredible reputation. When President Trump named him National Security Adviser, many people said this was a great sign that Trump 2.0 was picking adults and pros. Well, the decision to get rid of Waltz has been percolating for a long time. You'll recall that he led that Signal chat group that caused so much controversy and raised questions about his competence. Ironically, I think that controversy helped keep Waltz in his job for longer because President Trump didn't want to give a scalp to those like Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic who were saying that what Waltz did violated all sensible procedures. What's been going on behind the scenes, and I've been reporting on this for several weeks, is that people in the national security part of the administration, at the State Department, elsewhere in the White House, at the National Economic Council, people connected to the, at the highest levels of the West Wing, it wasn't about ideology. It wasn't the question of whether Waltz was too neo con or wasn't on the right side of issues. It was about process and competence. People thought he was too concerned about being in charge and not running a tight ship. The National Security Council staff is not very big. They sit right in the West Wing near the president. And Waltz is, was considered to be simply not up to the job of managing that daily flow of information. You've got embassies around the world, you've got the Pentagon, the State Department, the Treasury's involved in national security. That was another building, another part of the Trump administration that just said Walsh simply just can't do the job. Surprising military background, senior intelligence positions on Capitol Hill as a Florida congressman, very well regarded. But this was seen as a failure. Even before Single Gate, people were telling me he's not going to be long for the job. The reason that this has been delayed, besides the president not wanting to give the single the media the satisfaction of getting rid of his national security advisor, is he needs someone to take the job. And they've had a difficulty finding someone they considered a guy from the State Department. Marco Rubio's number two. He's doing such a good job. He's got job luck. I feel bad for the guy because I think he'd probably like to be national Security advisor, but he's not going to get the job, I'm told, because Rubio says no, he's, he's too valuable helping run the State Department. The person who is front and center to potentially get the job is Steve Witkoff. Now this is, this is some reporting that I think I'm ahead on also about what, where this stands. Steve Witkoff is a developer, he's a businessman, he's a friend of Trump's. And he is one of the surprises of this term. He's given a senior job. He's basically the negotiator for everything. First, he's negotiating on the Middle east and he was negotiating on Russia and Ukraine. And his capacity to do this job is celebrated in some cases. They say he's a, he's a guy who can get stuff done. He's got the confidence of the President. He's met with Putin several times. First senior official like that since the war started. So that's like the, the glass half, full view of Witkoff. But there are a lot of people, and not just, not just, you know, deep state diplomats and, and liberals, there are a lot of people in the government who are very supportive of the President's agenda who think Witkoff is in totally over his head. So yesterday, before I got wind of the, of the replacement plan with the National Security advisor, a story popped up in the New York Post, very negative story about Witkoff. Strange place for it to be. The New York Post is not normally doing deep dives on, on, on, on this kind of thing and had filled with all these negative quotes, going really hard at Witkoff, saying, Steve Witkoff is completely unqualified to be at the highest level of American national security. He's, he's doing irresponsible things. He's going to meetings with Putin without his own translator, not really understanding how to do it. It seemed to me like an effort to try to get Witkoff at the time to try to get Wyckoff out of the, out of these senior negotiating roles. In fact, what I'm now told is that story was planted by people who had wind of the fact that Trump was about to replace Wilson Waltz with Witkoff and want to stop him from getting the job. Now he's got a lot of supporters in the West Wing. There are a lot of people who think he's doing a great job and would be fine having him as be National Security advisor. But there are other people who don't want it to happen. The President faced a choice whether to delay the decision to get rid of Waltz, which again was being called for by lots of people around him until they could find a candidate or fire him and leave the job basically open, or have, have Waltz do it until they find a replacement and try to find a replacement. This is so common, not just for Donald Trump, who's not the best at personnel, but for any president, which is, okay, we got to get rid of person X, but we don't have the replacement. So I think what happened today, and I'm not sure about this because I didn't ask my sources, but I confirm this story after the initial tip really easily. Really easily. Right. So for a reporter, normally you get a tip, sometimes it can take hours, sometimes days, to get a second source. I got my second and third source almost as quick as I could dial up some additional people. Here's what I think happened. It's my speculation, but I think I'm right. The people who wanted Waltz out and don't want Witkoff in couldn't come up with another candidate, but they wanted Waltz out. They didn't want to let the president change his mind, because sometimes Donald Trump will change his mind. And so what I think happened is they said, let's put out the story that Waltz has gone. That'll force the president's hand. The president won't have the excuse of saying, well, I can't get rid of him until we have the replacement. And so I'm not saying I was used. I might have been rented to say, let's put this out. Let's. Let's force the president to do what he's committed to doing, getting rid of Waltz, and then he'll find someone. I don't know whether Witkoff's gonna end up in the job. Based on the reporting I've done so far, I don't think so. I think he's got some strong supporters, but I think there's some opposition. But the important thing is that the president's. Either his hand was forced or people didn't wanna wait around to see didn't wanna wait around to see whether he would follow through. Cause sometimes Donald Trump follows through on personal stuff and sometimes he doesn't. I'll keep covering the story. I'll have more on two Way tonight to talk about it. And of course, we'll keep tracking it. Follow me on social media as well for my reporting on that. All right. The other thing I want to talk to you about before we talk to Gavin Newsom is about presidential politics. Okay. Lots of you are super interested in it. You can't get enough of saying who. Who's going to be the next president or who's going to be the next nominees of the major parties. On the Republican side, I think J.D. vance is in a very strong position. The Democratic side's wide open. Right. They don't control the White House. Were past the period of Clinton's, Obama's, Biden. Right. Those three families, those three dynasties have taken up a lot of room. And now the question is, who's it going to be in 2028? And one of the great joys I have is covering presidential politics. One of the great frustrations I have is everybody thinks they know. And I'm here to tell you again with humility and confidence, born from having done this for decades and having not only spent time with everybody who's become president during my career, before they were president, sometimes well before, but also studying the history and saying, from Reagan forward, what does it take? What does it take to get the nomination and to win the White House? And I think there's one factor to me that is more important than any other one, and it's so underrated. And people look, people say, oh, it's going to be Wes Moore or it's going to be Governor Beshear of, of, of Kentucky. And I really think people are off track. People in the Democratic Party and I say respect, I don't know the Democrats are going to win or lose the White House. I don't know who they're going to nominate. But understanding the universe of possible people, my track record on that, again, I say with humility, it's pretty good. I don't always know who's going to be the nominee, but I generally know who's not going to be the nominee. And that's primarily because of this one factor is who understands how to play at this level. What I call being part of the national conversation, people say, shocking that Donald Trump got the nominate nomination. No way he could possibly get it. And if you go back and look at the record, I had a sense he could get it because even though he wasn't in politics as a, as a candidate, he was part of the national conversation for decades, meeting people, talking to voters, politicians, donors, activists, leaders in business. Having that experience gives you a base of knowledge and an understanding of the country, but it also gives you a sense of how to perform. Okay, so I want to, I want to talk about why I'm skeptical about some of the current Democrats who are talked about as possible candidates. But first, I want to tell you, I want to show you what I consider kind of like the gold standard in some ways of this, of this question of what does it take? Okay. People say, well, if you go Back to the 2008 cycle, no one knew in 2005, which is the equivalent of the year we're in now, in the four year cycle that Barack Obama would be the nominee. Say, who could have possibly known? Many people, because when he was at Harvard Law School, when he ran for the Senate in 2004, when he gave the keynote address at the Democratic convention in 2004, duh, everybody said, this guy's a super talent. Maybe he won't win in 2008, but you couldn't rule it out that he could be the nominee. Even up against Hillary Clinton and other people who were more established. He was part of the national conversation, not for decades. Policy, press, ideas. And I say to people all the time about Barack Obama, he did something in the period from 2004 when he gave that keynote address in Boston at John Kerry's convention through 2008 when he, when he beat Hillary Clinton and then beat John McCain. He had showed such great skills. And when I say to people, it's a simple three part test. Can you go on a late night comedy show, can you go on Monday Night Football or some big sports venue? And can you go on a high profile news interview and ace them all? And I'm going to show you Barack Obama acing them all. The Today show, Monday Night Football and a late night comedy show, Letterman. And imagine Wes Moore or Governor Beshear of Kentucky or Gretchen Whitmer. Imagine them acing it the way Barack Obama did. Take a look.

[Gavin Newsom]

You know, you are the equivalent of.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

A rock star in politics. You know, we live in a celebrity culture and so I'm always a little.

[Mark Davis]

Bit suspicious of the hype. And that's probably my Kansas side of me.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So tonight I'd like to put all the doubts to rest. I would like to announce to my hometown of Chicago and all of America.

[Mark Davis]

That I am ready.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

For the bears.

[Mark Davis]

To go all the way, baby.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Dun dun, dun dun.

[Gavin Newsom]

Met the president. You must know the president.

[Mark Davis]

Well, you know, he called me.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

He was very gracious. After the election, he gave me a.

[Mark Davis]

Call and we both agreed that we had married up.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

And then he invited me over to the White House and we had breakfast with Dick Cheney and Carl Rove and it was a real fun time. Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, again, you might not like Barack Obama, you might think he was a horrible president, but that's a star, right? That is poised in three different kind of venues. Now, some of these prospective candidates, maybe they could do well on the Today show or maybe they could do well on Monday Night Football or late night, but I don't see any of them. I wouldn't have confidence in any of the three of them at that level of performance. And it's likability, it's confidence, but it's also an understanding of what these different venues are. And of course, now, today, there are way more venues than there used to be. There's this program, there's Megan's program. There's so many different programs. People can go on, but you still have to understand the national conversation. You have to understand America. So we talk about some of the people who are discussed now as prospective candidates. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you about my skepticism. It extends to the whole field. Gavin Newsom will be here later. Arguably, of all the people talked about for running, the two Californians, Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris, are the two with the most experience in this realm being part of the national conversation. Okay, so I'm least skeptical about them on that measure, although I'm skeptical about them both for other reasons. But all these other people, Governor Shapiro, Pennsylvania, Cory Booker, who's run before, they just don't have this level of experience. Whether it's over a long period of time, like Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, or a very concentrated way like George W. Bush and Barack Obama, they just don't have that. So Gretchen Whitmer, governor of Michigan, big state. Talked about as a potential candidate for a while, talked about potentially being running mate for Joe Biden or Kamala Harris. And again, I got nothing against her. She's obviously a talented politician. Being able to get elected governor of Michigan, that alone is a huge feat. But the gap between even a mega state and running for president successfully, again, it's massive. Gretchen Whitmer knows a lot of people. I bet she thinks. Gresham Whitmer thinks. Well, I survived a lot of controversies, a lot of pressure situations. Case study. Gretchen Whitmer, Covid. She was governor during COVID A huge test for anybody in elective office. A lot of pressure. Pressure from business, pressure from parents, pressure from public health officials. I watch Gresham Whitmer closely, and again, I'm using her as a case study. But I think what I'm saying about her applies to every everybody else who I see named as a possible candidate. Even Pete Buttigieg served in the cabinet. Okay, here's Gretchen Whitmer during COVID Okay, Couple things happened that just really stayed with me. First of all, Gretchen Whitmer's husband, during COVID wanted to take his boat out. Was against the rules to Go take your boat out. Purported northern Michigan boat launch request fuels controversy for Whitmer. From The Detroit News. Than 108 New York Times. Okay, mission Governor says husband request was quote, failed attempt at humor. Her husband basically said, I'm gonna get my boat out cause I'm the governor's husband. Again, just bad judgment. You could say, well, that's a one off. You know, he lost his head. He really wanted to go out in the boat. Also during COVID Gretchen Whitmer decides even though there's a travel ban, you know, people said you shouldn't be traveling out of state. Gretchen Whitmer decided to travel out of state three times in six months during COVID at least once to go visit her mom. Understandable. But this is not the ancient history this was not that long ago. That's just, it's not just bad judgment, but it demonstrates a lack of awareness of what it takes to do this thing under excruciating pressure. Now, I will tell you something that hasn't, hasn't been reported as far as I know. Donald Trump is incredibly interested in presidential politics generally. He's super interested in the 2028 race and his bandwidth is crazy. You would think, well, he's got more other things to worry about as president. He does. But he's really interested in who's going to be the Republican nominee. Probably J.D. vance, who's going to be the Democratic nominee. And his interest is not passive. He wants to muck around in the Democratic race. He wants to be a player in figuring out who the Democrats are going to nominate. So Gretchen Whitmer, couple weeks ago, three weeks ago, goes to the White House to try to lobby for different things for Michigan, including support for this air base that, that needed, needed some federal help. And the president, unbeknownst to her horrible staff work for her team, brings her into the Oval Office. You've probably seen this photo, famous picture of the New York Times tick. Gretchen Witmer's in the Oval Office. Trump signing executive orders, attacking Democrats, okay. And going after his enemies, as many of the executive orders have. And she's in there and Trump talks, appraises or whatever. She then somehow gets it in her head that she can make herself invisible by holding a blue folder up to her face. So she holds the blue folder up to her face. It produced one of the most humiliating political photographs I can recall seeing because she's there in the Oval Office trying to hide the fact that she's in there with Donald Trump. Okay, so that was bad. Now flash fast Forward, flash forward to three weeks later, and Trump's going to Michigan to celebrate 100 days in office, give a big speech. She didn't go to that. She did greet him, though, when he arrived in the state, on the tarmac in Michigan, as governors do, even if the President's from the other party. And once again snookered by Donald Trump, he, he comes down the steps of Air Force One. You can see here, and, and you see Gretchen Whitmer puts out her hand to get a handshake, and Trump hugs her. And he hugs her in a way that she can't, she can't avoid hugging him back, patting him a couple times on the shoulder. Now, some people say, well, that's great for her, right? That's great because it shows that she's helping to fight. First date. Then later at the event, Trump introduces her and she's not expecting to speak, but once again, bad staff work, she's tricked into speaking. Listen to how awkward it is where she basically thanks Trump without saying his name.

[Gavin Newsom]

I want to thank you very much, Gretchen.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Good job.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I hadn't planned to speak, but I'm.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

On behalf of all the military men and women who serve our country and serve so honorably on behalf of the.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

State of Michigan, I am really damn happy we're here to celebrate this recapitalization at Selfridge. It's crucial for the Michigan economy, it's.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Crucial for the men and women here.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

For our homeland security and our future.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So thank you.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I'm so, so grateful that this announcement.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Is made today and I appreciate all the work.

[Leo Grillo]

Thank you.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay, so if Gretchen Whitmere ends up running for president, the, the blue folder in front of her face, the handshake, the awkward remarks, it may not matter. She's putting herself in, in the same camp as Governor Newsom, saying, I'm fine with, with being nice to Trump when it's in my state's interest. But I just, what I see here is not just bad staff work, but not playing at the level required to get through the gauntlet. Now somebody's going to get through the gauntlet. And if I'm right, that, that, you know, they're all pretty weak, like second grade soccer league. Even if all the teams are bad, somebody wins the championship. But my caution here, my main message on this is if you think that it's easy to run for president and if you think being successful as a governor or senator or business person is enough, it's not. Have you been in the national conversation, have you been talking to people about America. And I don't see it in Gretchen Whitmer, but I don't see it in almost any of these other people. And I think Donald Trump is going to do his best to muck around and embarrass and humiliate and taunt all the Democrats to try to figure out how he can weaken the entire party. So his chosen candidate, which I think will be J.D. vance, will work. All right, coming up, someone who is discussed as as potential presidential candidate, California Governor Gavin Newsom. He is, in fact, very experienced in the national conversation, and it's one reason I think people underrate him as a potential presidential candidate. We're going to talk about how what I hear about Governor Newsom, he hears it to try to dispel some of the myths and maybe break a little news. So stay tuned for California Governor Newsom. Next up, right here.

[Leo Grillo]

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[Jessica Milan Patterson]

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[Gavin Newsom]

A lot of people have strong opinions about platforming and engaging with folks that they don't necessarily agree with. And I think it's been illuminating. It's been insightful, it's certainly been educational and it's exceeded my expectation. I've really enjoyed it. And I think it's important to reach out to folks we disagree with, to not be disagreeable in the process. But I'll tell you, there's a lot of anxiety out there, a lot of stress, a lot of trauma from the last election, and not everybody is prepared to have those conversations.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I've listened to every episode. I love your show and I love, I love what you're doing. And I think I agree with what you're suggesting, that it's nuts. You're not going to use that word probably, but it's nuts the way people have reacted negatively to you talking to people. And I've enjoyed the ones that have been a little bit touchy and contentious and kind of combative. And I've enjoyed the ones that have been friendly, whether you're interviewing Democrats or conservatives. I think it's great. I'd even say it's historic what you've done. And it pains me that you've gotten some of the negative reaction you have because I don't understand what these people think you're supposed to do in America besides talk to people you disagree with and listen.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, look, I mean, I think we're a little bit desperate right now for a sense of belonging, a sense of well being and, you know, tearing other people down 24 7. I mean, the election's over. Democrats got shellacked. Donald Trump, you know, wasn't historic. That's BS but he beat us and he beat us badly. And I think we need to have a little humility and a little grace and understanding of why what happened? Who are the architects of his success? Who are the folks that believe in him? Why did we lose in almost every demographic group? Why did he gain in almost every demographic group? Why young men are moving away from the Democratic Party? And so I do think it's Important to have a forensic. If we don't do that, we're going to have a hell of a time in the next few years figuring out a path back.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Once you and I get a long weekend together, I want to do like Mystery Science Theater and sit and watch them all with you and talk about them. And we're not gonna have time to do much, but I wanna talk to you about Charlie Kirk. He's someone whose show I've appeared on. He's come on the two way platform with me. What would you tell Democrats about how Charlie Kirk has succeeded in his multi dimensional thing that he does and the lessons that are there for your party?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, he does two things at once. He floods the zone and he listens and he engages. He's willing to debate and he's willing to debate anyone. He shows up, he has a strategy, he has a plan. He's showing up in places you wouldn't expect. He's showing up in places you wouldn't expect with crowds you wouldn't expect. And he's got. We've no one on our side doing what Charlie Kirk is doing. And he's converting young folks, he's converting young men. I wasn't joking when I talked to Charlie. I said my son, I wasn't making this up. I said my 13 year old son wanted to skip school to meet him. Not because he agrees with him, just because he knows him, because he's in his algorithm. It's not just Charlie Kirk, it's Jordan Peterson, it's Andrew Tate. Something's going on here that we need to pay attention to. And you saw Charlie was successful in building that movement with young folks. That was net plus 15, 56% of young men voted for Trump. That's a big move. And of course, I've tried to move in a direction of understanding that even more fully by having guys like Scott Galloway on Richard Reeves on Jackson Katz to understand a broader movement. What's happening with young men across this country, which are in crisis, young are in crisis right now, of identity, back to meaning, purpose and mission. And I think the Democratic Party just from an electoral perspective, needs to address that. Societally, we have a responsibility by definition.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I really mean it when I say people should listen to your show, particularly Democrats. And I would literally want to talk to you about every episode, but we don't have time. Who's the closest in your party now to Charlie Kirk?

[Gavin Newsom]

That's a great question. I honestly am struggling with that. That said, there are a lot of great people I think doing A wonderful Midas touch and what they've been able to do and sort of expose to a broader audience and platforming folks. There are a number of folks that are iterating in this space. But look, nine out of 10 top podcasts tend to lean more conservative. We've seen that with cable NETWORKS. I think 15 out of 16 top rated shows, obviously more conservative. Fox dominating in that space. But it's not just Fox, it's across the spectrum and what Sinclair Broadcasting is doing and what's happening around the ecosystem of right wing populism. And so I just think Democratic Party needs to wake up for this. Not just a communications problem. It's not as simple as that, but it's certainly part of that. And this is what I'm trying to iterate about and what I'm trying to illuminate.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I'm overwhelmed with how much I want to talk to you about. So I'm going to ask you about one small myth and then I want to talk to you about four big ones. The small myth you hear from Republicans all the time, your friend Sean Hannity, that people are leaving California in droves and that you're going to be there, everybody will be gone and you're and you'll be the last one in the state. Tell people the announcement your office made today about the population of California.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, just another year back to back of population growth. The last time we had a population decline, we're 11 states in the country. Three years ago that saw a population decline. Two out of the three top states were Republican states. For what it's worth, we were number 11. We lost a whopping 151 people. So this mass exodus is wildly overblown. And accordingly, I think it's interesting to highlight IMF came out just a week ago showing California is the fourth largest economy in the world. $4.1 trillion, $412 billion of manufacturing, 41% greater than the number two state. Number one in direct foreign investment, two way trade. We dominate in every major industry in the United States. There's not a state in this country where we do not outperform in terms of that category, including hunting jobs, forestry jobs, including agricultural jobs, 150% larger than the next largest state. And I think for me, the biggest thing that I want to communicate Mark to you and others about this notion of California being a failed state, besides having more Fortune 500 companies than we've ever had in over 15 years, that was fortunate. Just announced that we also have more scientists, engineers, researchers, more Nobel Laureates than any other state. The finest system of higher education and we contributed $83.1 billion more than the federal government provided us. And I compare and contrast that not as a cheap shot but as a point of reference. Texas took in $71.1 billion. A lot of mythology about California.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay, I don't want to minimize your list, but you also think have more In n out burgers than any other state.

[Gavin Newsom]

And we have.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

That's important. All right. So for a big myths. I've known you a long time. We don't know each other well, but I've been so interested in you as a political figure. You've done as mayor and as lieutenant governor of governor, you've done a lot of interesting and important things. And I listen all day almost every day to people back east saying things about you. Democrats, Republicans, very political people, not political. But I. It just doesn't accord with my conception of you. So I'm going to run through four Gavin Newsom myths and you, you tell me if you're familiar with them. I bet you are. And just not in a defensive way but just to tell the truth about what the reality is. And I'm hoping I can just show this to people and rather than having to explain it myself every time. So one myth is that you're crazy liberal, that you're so far to the left, you've governed as a liberal, you've always been a liberal and that you've done a few things of late like with Charlie Kirk to try to pretend you're more moderate. It's just. That's not true. But explain to people you give yourself a label or not. What do you say about the myth? I say it's a myth that you're far to the left of the country.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I was accused of being conservative as mayor of San Francisco. I continue to be considered similarly as governor of California, someone that balances budget that provided the biggest tax rebate in U.S. history, $18.5 billion that has consistently opposed state efforts to increase our wealth tax or our income tax. Top line income tax. I'm a pragmatist. I'm a small business owner. I've created 22 small businesses taking pen to paper close to 1,000 people that I've had the privilege of employing in the state. I've had an entrepreneurial mindset. I embrace innovation and free enterprise. And so this notion that I'm a wild haired liberal is just nonsense. That said on progressive social issues I stand tall and firm in terms of my advocacy.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Well, you were way out ahead of some other of your Democratic friends, including some Californians on same sex marriage. And there are some social issues, abortion rights. But there are other social issues and there's one in the news this week where you have said your party might be going too far. Right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. No, I mean, just as it relates to sex predators going after children. To me it's just common sense. By the way, I thought it was common sense what I did in 2004 on same sex marriage. And you're right, my party was the most vocal and critical against those actions. I didn't think in any way infringed on other people's rights. I thought it was the right thing to do. The American people now have come to accept that. But look, I've often called balls and strikes and I've always been a hard headed pragmatist on issues. Again, yes, I haven't taken a back seat on many social issues as it relates to the values that I hold dear. And embracing our diversity, celebrating our diversity, something that's verboten now. And I call out people that belittle other people and talk down to people and play those kind of politics that I just, you know, I don't think is becoming of America.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just want to put a button on this first myth. Is it fair to say that you think in some ways on economics, social issues, maybe issues related to immigration? Not every issue. But on some issues your party's gone too far to the left. Is that fair to say?

[Gavin Newsom]

Absolutely. Look, you can't be pro job and anti business at the same time. Businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. And that's my mindset. It's growth and inclusion and it's always been that. Look, this is a state that has 18% of the world's R and D. It's a point of deep pride. We dominate in AI, we dominate in innovation, entrepreneurialism. We've got to invest in those growth engines and we've got to invest in those innovators at the same time.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

All right, America, meet me at camera one. He's not a crazy liberal. The myth exposed, debunked. Second myth. And I'm just going to say it straight. And I know you've heard that. I know you've heard the first one. I don't even need to ask you. I know you've heard this one too. You're. You're an ambitious pretty boy. You're a lightweight. Ted Cruz on this program, called you the other day, incandescently ambitious.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, look, coming from Ted, I appreciate that. That's amazing.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I don't. I don't. I'm not going to violate any. Anything by saying you're handsome man, and there are things about you that are, I'd say, slick in the sense of you're a handsome man, but just head that off. You're not in this as a pretty boy or lightweight. You're a thinker, you're a doer. Right. It's a myth to say that you're a ambitious pretty boy who's in politics because it's glamorous.

[Gavin Newsom]

One of the things I'm most passionate about is policy. I mean, I'm passionate about public policy. And I think you may have tangentially been covering me many, many moons ago when I was out there doing something called Great Cities, Great Ideas. I ran for mayor of San Francisco on 26 policy papers, put out white papers, wrote a book as lieutenant governor about platform thinking, how to take the town square digital and reinvent government. That was sort of ahead of its time. As it relates to Doge today, it's been a point of pride, what we've done in California, as it relates to advancing public policy through a lens of good public policy mindset, meaning our commitment to the best politics is a better idea, and our commitment to be pragmatic, not ideological, in terms of pursuit of public policy. But it's absolutely untrue that I wake up with sort of a Geiger or some sort of political lens to every decision I make. It's just total bs.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Right, okay. Just to put a button on that one, and I'm not asking you to brag here, but my perception of you is that you could sit down with Bill Clinton or, or Newt Gingrich or any public official known to be a policy wonk, and you'd have no problem keeping up with them. Correct?

[Gavin Newsom]

I would. In fact, those two individuals, I've spent extended period of time over the years talking about governance. And by the way, Bill Clinton in particular, is one of the things I think we're missing in our party right now is a little bit not just of community opportunity, but this notion of responsibility in sort of the lexicon of the DLC and what Bill Clinton provided in terms of that mindset. And I think it's absolutely.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

It's not my job to be your spokesman or to defend you, but, folks, this is a myth. This is a myth. This is a serious person, and it shouldn't even have to be said, my only recommendation to you is maybe less product in your hair.

[Gavin Newsom]

Jesus, here we go again. You and my mother maybe gain.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Maybe gain £50 like I did. Do something. Do something. All right. Another myth. This is. This is number three. This will be easy to dispatch every day. You say, of course he's running for president. Of course. Right now, I'm not saying you won't. Yeah, but I know. I know because I know you and I know people who know you. You might not. It's not. It's like you've decided to. So just. I'm not. I'm not trying to make news here because I know it's not an easy answer. You might, but it's not. You're not. You're not bad in terms. Not only. Not to run in 28. My sense of view is you may never run. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I'm with 1,000%. What you just said 1,000, not 100%. I might. I don't know. But I have to have a burning why? And I have to have a compelling vision that distinguishes myself from anybody else without that, without both. And I don't deserve to even be in the conversation. But I am someone that's. I'm trying to pursue the unknown. I'm interested. I'm open to argument. I want to engage folks and I want to learn. I want to iterate. I have an entrepreneurial mindset. And to the extent that brings me in the political conversation, I'm blessed by that. And the extent it helps me leverage my day job as government, all the better.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

But you have not in your head or said to anyone, I'm going to run. I'm going to run 28. I'm definitely running.

[Gavin Newsom]

Absolutely. My closest advisors, my wife and other. I got four kids that are desperate for my term to end, to get their dad back.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

And. And that's the thing I tell people all the time. And I don't want to pry into your personal life. So of course you speak to this as much as you wish. I say to people, he's got a wife and kids who I would say are at best ambivalent about your running. Mixed feelings. They may not be dead set against it, but. But if you said, again, you tell me this is right. If you went home tonight and said, you know what? I'm not going to do it. I want to spend time with you all, they would be delighted. And that's important to you, Correct?

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, my gosh. I had my oldest daughter last night. She's 15, almost in tears because she can't take it anymore, because she's got someone now with her because of the world we're living. And Ted was talking about that on your show a couple days ago. Things have radically changed. She said, dad, I can't take it anymore. When are you done with this? Give us our life back. No. It's very intense and emotional. And by the way, for Ted Cruz, his daughter was treated badly by folks, and we needed to call that out. It's terrible what's going on on both sides of the aisle in this as it relates to families and these relationships.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

And again, you mentioned your daughter. My understanding is your wife's not crazy about you running for president. Correct?

[Gavin Newsom]

No. Look, and I'm so proud of my wife. She's been a champion. She's a fierce champion of women and girls, but also boys and men. She did a documentary 10 years ago on the crisis of masculinity called Masculine. And she continues in that advocacy and in that frame. And she just wants. She wants me to be a great father. That's her only. That's her mission in life. And I'll tell you what, that is the most important thing for me. I figured that out. I got four young kids, two boys, two girls, and to me, that's the lens to which every decision needs to be made.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So just again, to put one more button on this, when people say to me, Gavin Newsom's definitely running, he's so obvious. He's unconditionally ambitious. Of course he's running. What should I say to them?

[Gavin Newsom]

You say, say to be determined, unknown.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Truly, though not just. Not just. Not just. Not just. Your lawyers say, don't say. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Mark, there's nothing I hate more than politicians answering this question and the BS. 99% of the time, I almost.1% of the time, they're actually being honest.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I almost try to be the 1%. It's a stupid question to try to get people to announce for president, like, you know, when they don't want to. I just try to put the myth to rest. And we have. Last myth is the. Is the biggest one we've touched on a little bit, which is that if you. If you did run for president or just as you think about your legacy as we head towards the end of your second and final term, people say, absolute failure. That the state has been a failure. Now, I've listened to you talk a lot about this. I've read a lot about it. We're not. We could spend five hours on it. One thing you've done that's really caught my attention and I will say, honestly, bothered me a little bit, is that when there have been some issues, you've blamed the mayors or the federal government and, and you said, well, the mayor of San Francisco, your successor, not doing a good job on, on the streets. The previous mayor, mayor of LA didn't do a good job on fires. And then I've heard you blame Washington. Now, I'm not holding them blameless, but you ran for the job. You know full well what happens in Washington affects the governor. The mayors, you know, are the mayors, so are you. What would you say you've not done? You, not the state. What have you not done as well as you would have liked to have?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, let me just, because it's incredibly important, clarify. I've never criticized the mayor of L. A for the fire response. Quite the contrary. I spent the day with her yesterday. We have been, we have been lockstep in terms of our work there. As it relates to the former mayor of San Francisco, the same. I provided unprecedented support. What I criticized was the lack of urgency as it relates to the street population and what's happening with encampments and tents. And that was a broad statement across the state of California. As a former mayor, I thought I'm in the privileged position. States vision, national vision realized through states. But localism is determinative at the end of the day when it comes to housing and homelessness. It's the original sin in the state of California. The affordability challenge in this state. NIMBYism in this state. We've been pounding 42 Seeka reform bills I've signed. We have a huge housing package this year. We've been deeply focused on getting things done. And no state has done more to address the homeless crisis than this state. But at the end of the day, I'm not naive about the challenges that remain in the state of California. So no accountability buck stops here. I might as well be the mayor of California, not just the governor of California. And so from that perspective, I want to be bottom and clear.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay. I interpreted some of the things you said immediately after the fires as critical of the mayor. I stand corrected if I'm wrong. Okay, so just put a button on this because there's one other topic I want to get to. If you, if, if, when you, whether you run for president or not, when you talk about your record, would you say that, that on balance it is, it is a myth to say that you are a failed governor? Is that your view?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I don't know. I mean, if I'm representing a failed state, it's the fourth largest economy in the world. We dominate in every critical category. We continue to grow, we continue to outperform. We're a wealth making machine. We're a state. By the way, I'm so sick and tired of the mythology that we're a high tax state. It's just a lie. It's made up 16 states tax their low wage earners more than the state of California. Are we a high tax state or a low tax state? We have the highest tax rate for the 1%, but demonstrably 99% are not in that 1%. 80% of Californians are taxed about average. And you go to the aggressive states like Texas and Florida, they nail people in the lower class, in the middle class compared to states like California. But number two, I also want to make this point as it relates to investing in reforms. We've created a brand new grade pre K for all, after school and summer school for all. We lead the nation over the last decade in 8th grade reading growth in the last 10 years. We're one of three states that's seen improvements in 4th grade reading over the last decade. We continue to make progress in leading the nation in reduction of veterans homelessness. Unsheltered homeless went up just 0.45%. 44 states saw larger growth. I recognize the responsibility I have on low carbon green growth, speaking of growth, to do more as it relates to the way we produce and consume energy and continue to dominate in that space. AI and quantum in so many categories. The state continues just to dominate. And so I'm really proud of it. I'm proud of this state and our state of mind and I'm proud of the fact that the state continues to grow. Grow.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay, again, I'm not going to fact check everything you said, but the point of the button on the fourth myth is now I don't have time. The button on the fourth myth is your record of accomplishment in California is substantial. They're going to. There are things like housing where you're ending your term without accomplishing everything you wanted. Same with homelessness. But people who want to say that this is a disastrous governor who didn't get anything done. It just the record doesn't show that. Governor, some. Yes. No questions to end with about politics. If Kamala Harris enters the gubernatorial primary, will she be the Democratic nominee?

[Gavin Newsom]

I think so. But remember, we have an open primary, so it's a broader question.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, yeah, but I mean, she's Far and away. Will she, will she, will she be the top vote getter for Democrats?

[Gavin Newsom]

No. No doubt in my mind.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you think if she runs and I don't know, and I know you, I share your point of view. You've been doing some interesting punditry from afar. I have a little more close to it and I can just, I can say your sources seem accurate from my perspective.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, I just, I just, I've said this all the time. She, her Achilles heels, she doesn't like to make difficult decisions under pressure. I, I think she'd be afraid of losing. Even though you think she'd win and I don't know that she wants to be governor of California. It's a crazy thing. Sometimes people think, well, are they going to run for that office? They should want to do it. People say to me all the time, should I run for Senate? I said, it doesn't seem to me you want to be a senator. So you're not sure she's going to run.

[Gavin Newsom]

I honestly, by the way, I'm as close to the people around her than anybody. And to this moment, I would say the vast majority of us do not know, period.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Right. And would you advise her to run? Would you tell her it's a good job for her?

[Gavin Newsom]

I would reflect what you just said. You have to have a burning. Why? And if you can't enunciate that, the answer is no. Why the hell would you want this job?

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

You have to have a. Who's the front runner if she doesn't run?

[Gavin Newsom]

Difficult to know. I mean, it's, there's a lot of folks in the race and I mean, forgive me, I'm frankly focused on a lot of other things besides who the next governor is. I still got 18, 20 months. And so I'm going to run through the tape, 112 yard dash.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I want to talk about, I love what you did with tariffs the other day on your show and your social media, which is you talk to some real people who are being impacted by the tariffs. My family got an email from a toy star in our neighborhood. It said toys that used to cost us $10, we are going to pay 25 for. So tell us which toys you would spend 20, $15 more for and we'll order those. Tell one story. Tell one story of one of your constituents and how they say they're being impacted.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I have a remarkable person in California, runs a small business for wheelchair repair and wheelchairs and provides to als, the nonprofits, most of their product. It's A business that's grown 300% a year over year in the last few years. They just did their next order from China, $600,000. And they were asked to write an additional $830,000 check. 600,000 plus 830,000 because of the imposition of the tariffs. So he didn't make the order and he's living off the inventory and told all his employees that were now near the end and I may have to lay you off and is talking to nonprofits like the als and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to provide you this product. There's simply no alternatives anywhere for alternative access to the kind of technology he needs for those wheelchairs. Perfect example.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

You've got two or. Thank you for that. You've got two or three big ports in your state.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, yeah, well, we have three or four, but the two biggest 40% of all the goods movement in the United States of America, Long beach and LA. And they just announced. I was just down there yesterday. 35% decline in volume. 35%, not 3.5%. That would be alarming. 35%.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

That's their projection or that's what's happening.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's projection next week based upon what they know is not arriving. You go down there today, it's eerie. It's like the peak of COVID This is already happening. People don't understand that. 0.3% contraction versus the 2.4% growth in the prior quarter. Again, that was before Liberation Day. The impacts of these tariffs haven't even been felt in terms of, I think, GDP growth over the next few quarters. And again, no state has more to lose, let alone more to gain than the state of California. I'll remind you again, number one manufacturing state in the country. At peak, we'll have 500,000. By the way, Mark Porten, we have 500,000 farmworkers we're going to need at peak this summer. And the chill just on the immigration uncertainty. We're seeing decline in tourism. I mean, the impacts already are outsized, but the impacts to come, I'm more concerned about.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I know you don't like the way these tariffs are being done. Are you from the camp like Bernie Sanders who says tariffs can be very good, but I don't like this set of tariffs this way. Or are you against tariffs in general?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, 100% with Bernie, and that's, forgive me, with Biden in that respect. I thought it was very strategic what Biden did. As it relates, he significantly increased the baseline of Trump's tariffs and increased some tariffs on China. No, they can be used as a tool. But he also had an industrial policy that was worker centered, the Chips and Science Act. I mean, we should be doubling the Chips and Science act, producing real results in rural parts of this country. Manufacturing was coming back in aspects of the IRA and the Tax Credits Act. Not everybody agrees, but the benefits of that are being felt. The Buy America provisions. At least he had a rational approach. And Trump could have come in with a similar rational approach, but he didn't. And he's come in with an irrational approach across the spectrum. And we're paying a profound price. And again, no state, remember China, one of our biggest trading partners, Mexico and Canada, we're the size of 21 state populations combined. The impacts here outside. That's why we initiated that lawsuit.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Can I ask you two foreign policy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Questions or you got to please bring it on.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

China Xi story in the Wall Street Journal says, in fact there's some truth to the administration's position that China's under pressure now and they're having consumer issues now. I got an alarm here. Hopefully that'll go off. What would you advise the President to do to maximize pressure on China in this trade war?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, he did. I mean, by the way, what she appears to be doing is similar to what Trump has already done. I mean, Trump made the exceptions for smartphones and she's similarly looking at areas including aircraft equipment and the like to exempt them from the 125% tariffs in China. But look this, I'm concerned about what I also read today, not just as it relates to where China is. The Wall Street Journal article in particular, I think you're referring to, that sort of highlighted some of the mythology there. And they're putting on a good face. But their economic realities are a little bit more disconcerting for them. But I'm more disconcerted by the fact that the Trump administration is out there saying we need to make a deal. I mean, you lose all leverage when you say we need to quickly make some deals.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So where is the leverage over China?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, the leverage over time. I mean, obviously the two way trade for them is going to disproportionately impact their domestic economy. I think 13% of their GDP is connected with those exports to the United States, just 3% from the US to China. So there's asymmetry as it relates to that balance. The reality though, for us, our politics is so much more situational and he's got to look quarter to quarter. He's got next midterms, he's got to look the markets and she is obviously able to play a longer game. And that to me is where this leverage starts to loosen a little bit. And that's why I'm more concerned.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So I say again, where is the leverage? You're doing a good job of explaining why leverage they think they have, the President thinks he has, might not have. Where is the leverage the United States has over Xi in this trade war?

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't think he has a tremendous amount. And I'll tell you one of the things that really bothered me and, and I'm not trying to be a spokesman for the MAGA movement or Trump, but I thought it should bother them. You know, when Apple got the exemption on the smartphones, they also announced they were moving a ton of their manufacturing not to the United States, but to India. If the whole theory of the case is that this is supposed to be supply chains home, I would have been, you know, I would immediately call that out. And so this whole, the whole theory of the case is being blown up. The original arguments around why we're doing tariffs and sort of this sort of ready fire, aim approach to our allies and our trading partners. So I don't know where the leverage is and I think the only actual leverage are the markets. And I think that's the one thing that can move this administration. Thank God for the markets. Mother nature hasn't impressed them on low carbon green growth, but the markets certainly still bat last and bat a thousand.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I'm not going to press my luck and do the other four imposing question take too long? And I want to ask you one more thing and grateful to you for your time. Leave aside politics, running for president or not, what are some of your unfulfilled professional ambitions? Not about your family. What are some of your unfulfilled professional ambitions?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, professionally, look, I mean I, for me I'm passionate entrepreneur. And so I still have a lot of business ideas that I was pursuing before I got in this racket called politics. I started right out of college with pen to paper one part time employee, Pat Kelly. I raised 175,000 bucks. I borrowed $7,500 from my dad and I opened a little wine store at Greenwich and Fillmore in San Francisco. I built that business little restaurant a few years later to 20 plus businesses, restaurants, hotels, four wineries. Today I say that not to impress you but to impress upon you passion for entrepreneurialism. A passion for entrepreneurs. And so for me, my professional ambitions beyond being in Public service of which, by the way, I was inspired by Sars Shriver. Another reason we just announced our 16th lawsuit against Trump administration on these AmeriCorps cuts. He was the guy who started Vista Legal Aid to the poor. Probably had more influence in the last century than most presidents. And the impact of those cuts to me are profound, particularly here in California. So public service matters. But I also have a passion for. For entrepreneurialism.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Would you consider, after your term ends, becoming the CEO of my company Two Way that brings authentic. Creates authentic community around live conversations.

[Gavin Newsom]

See, I'm potentially looking for a job in 20 months, so I'm not going to turn down anybody. So let's talk.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Come in, let's talk. Because you are interested in using technology to create authentic community.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

You've done a lot and that's what we do. So it's a possibility. I'm looking for a CEO like Bob Iger. And you're. You're as close as I can think of. So grateful to you for making time. I hope you'll come back. Don't check the Apple podcast ratings for my show versus yours, because you're number two.

[Gavin Newsom]

I can't even handle it. I got to near the 10 spot, but you got it. Sustainability, Mark. That's the challenge. You got to keep it going.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

It's week one for me and all week because you and Ted Cruz have both been on. I've been watching you and Ted. You jockey, you two. You're very similarly ranked.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is that right? Look, I give Ted a lot of credit for being an entrepreneur in this space and leading in that space. And also, I'll close. Sincerely, I wasn't making it up. I thought the best part about that damn conversation you had with him when he's talking about his kids and family. And I hope everybody listening pays attention to that. He is a father and he's a husband, and that to me is sacred space for everybody.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Totally agree. I've gotten a ton of feedback from people who said, I think of Ted Cruz in a different light because he said that and how strongly they feel. So I'm grateful for you making time. I look forward to watching you run through the tape. I'll say again, I'm not your spokesman. There are things I could say negative, but those four myths, I'm sure they drive you more crazy than they drive me. And I'm glad we got to address them.

[Gavin Newsom]

God bless. Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me, Governor.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Thank you. And we'll be back right after this.

[Mark Davis]

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[Jessica Milan Patterson]

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[Mark Davis]

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[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I want to tell you a story now. It's about a guy named Leo Grillo. Leo was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight. Clearly in a lot of trouble, in need of a lot of help. Leo rescued the Doberman and he gave the dog a name, Delta. Sadly, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the entire world. They've rescued thousands of dogs and cats and horses from the wilderness and they provide their animals with shelter, love, safety and a warm home. The dedication and everlasting love to animals is Leo's mission and it's Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be a part of your legacy, you've got an opportunity here. You can speak with your estate planner because there are tax saving estate planning benefits to going this direction. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and you can speak with an advisor we call dog man's best friend for a good reason. You can help those who need it most. Please, please visit Deltarescue.org today to learn more. Again, that's Deltarescue.org you won't regret it. Welcome back to NextUp. Thank you for being with us here. Now to talk about California, two lifetime Californians both named Jessica and they're meeting here for the first time. Couldn't be more excited to have you both here. Jessica Milan Patterson was the chair up until recently of the California Republican Party. And Jessica Reed Kraus is, I'm told to say you're an independent journalist, but you're, I think of you more as a voice of a generation. How about that? You're both moms and you're both super interested in America and in your state. So let's start with California, which we talked to Governor Newsom about, and I'll have to figure out how to nickname you, Jessica P. What's the state of California from your point of view right now? How's it going? Because it's a great state, has a thriving, huge economy. What's sort of your state of the state of California.

[Leo Grillo]

Right. So just last week it was announced that we are the fourth largest economy in the world. And it doesn't mean a lot to a lot of people because only 15% of Californians can afford to buy a home here. We are losing people faster than we are gaining them. I think Democrat one party rule has failed Californians, and that's shown by the fact that for the first time in our state's history, we lost a congressional district. And right now we're on track to lose four more by 2030. And it's absolutely been Democrats in charge of everything here. So what I would say is that the Golden State is not quite as golden as it used to be. But I think there are a lot of opportunities on the horizon. And I think a lot of Californians, thanks to great independent journalism that's happening in our state and that's talking about the real problems of California and who has caused these problems. Californians are waking up and they're ready for some change.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Jrk, as I sometimes call you, kind of like rfk, what do you love and your, your four boys and your husband, what do you guys love about California? What's still great from your point of view about California?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Well, we live in San Clemente, California, and it's still sort of a kind of like a old school beach town vibe. And my boys are, you know, they have a lot of freedom here. They run around, they're surfing, they're on bikes, they take the trolley. And there's like a sense of community here where the kids still go out and, you know, do things outside. And so we, we love the ocean. My office here in Laguna is right by, you know, the beach. I mean, we, we would never not live in California, but obviously there's major problems and it, I don't have all the statistics like Jessica, but just driving around, you know, la, you see the, the homelessness, the epidemic, and it kind of made its way here and we kicked him out really quick because it became a whole problem with tents popping up everywhere after Covid. You know, a lot changed after Covid. So. But we, I mean, I still want to believe that we can turn it around. I was at Tucker Carlson's show this last summer, and he had a whole plan as to how it could be fixed. He said fairly easily. So, I mean, I love California. I'm a California girl forever.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, you both are. And, and it's. For me, it's always so interesting to talk to people who are unhappy with the Democratic rule in Sacramento, who, Who see the state having huge challenges on housing, on. On homelessness, on transportation, and yet you guys love the state. Like, you guys haven't left. And, And I find that even conservatives who are unhappy with governance can write, like, poems about how much they love California. And I feel like YouTube sort of feel that way. Am I, as we say on the Internet, am I right? You both, you both are passionate about California.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I was going to bring that up, too. I still am attached to it in a literary sense, you know, as far as, like, we accept the. The beauty and the destruction, the fires and the earthquakes. You know, the Joan Didion prose that framed California I'll always be attached to. But it's got its problems.

[Leo Grillo]

I mean, 100%. The views from our beautiful oceans and mountains have not changed. Our wonderful Central Valley that provides the food for the entire world. None of this has changed. It's just the policies that have come out of Sacramento have changed. Or world championship Dodgers. I love my Dodgers. I love my state. I love being from L. A. But I hate what my state has become.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah. Why can't Silicon Valley produce a governor? Why can't. Why can't some genius, really rich person with great advertising and communication skills come in and fix the state?

[Leo Grillo]

Well, I think that we haven't. We've seen it tried before, right? We saw meg Whitman in 2020, even Carly Fiorina. Fiorina, who ran for U.S. senate. We've definitely seen the try. I think at that point, I don't know that California was exactly ready for it. We had just come off of a Schwarzenegger administration, and Governor Schwarzenegger had stopped Democrats from doing a lot of bad things with his veto power as governor. So I don't think that we had gotten to a place where it had gotten so bad that they were ready to make that choice with the way that the demographics had changed. Voter registration alone, because for 15 years in California, Republican voter registration was on a downward trajectory. Right. In February of 2019, we took over and we started moving it in the right direction. And for the last six years, we registered over a million voters in the last three polls that we have Seen statewide, California voters at about 48%. 47. 48% in those three polls have said they are ready to vote for a Republican governor. The problem that we have been running into is that whenever we feed in a name, none of them can get to 48%. And I think you're on the right track. I do think that Silicon Valley might be the answer, and I think some of these tech bros and sisters are ready to make that jump. And I don't know who the right person is yet, but I think that that is kind of the place where we should be looking.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Jessica, do you have anybody in mind you'd love if you could just make someone governor? Is there anybody you have in mind?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I don't, but I do have an interest in Chad Bianco, who is running. I, I think he's going to be a good. A good subject to follow, and I'm excited to learn more about sort of his plans and him as a person and a politician. I just. Yeah, we need somebody different. Somebody with a different. Different plan.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, I think somebody. I think somebody different could have a great chance to. To win. You do? How. How would you rate Vice President Harris's chances of being the next governor if she does run? Do you think. Do you think she's the front runner? Good chance, bad chance. How do you guys see that?

[Leo Grillo]

I think she's odds on favorite. I think the biggest mistake that California Democrats can make is to coordinate her. I think that they have to allow people to make their own decisions, whether or not they're going to get in or get out of this race on their own. So I think the biggest mistake that they could make is not giving her a primary.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

But you think if she runs, she's the favorite not just to the nomination, but to win?

[Leo Grillo]

I think that we haven't reached a point yet where Republicans are, quote, unquote, dominating. I do think that if she is their candidate, that is the best chance for Republicans to win.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I agree.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Jessica. Agree. Chris, do you find her appealing at all?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I don't know. I. I found her. I found her really boring and incompetent. Like, I couldn't even really attack too many things because they're just. For me, there was really nothing there. Is that a serious. Is she a serious contender? Is that what we're looking at?

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I don't think she's going to run myself. I think she's just. She's too indecisive. That's her big Achilles heel. I've long said she doesn't like to make tough decisions under pressure. And I think the deadline's coming up too quickly. And I think there's two things. When is the deadline? Well, she said she's going to decide by summer, end of summer, they said last night. But, but, but here's the thing about Kamala Harris. I don't, I think she'd be afraid of losing and I'm not sure she wants to spend the next four years in Sacramento. So it's like if you're, if you think you might lose and if you think you don't really want the job, I just can't imagine she's going to pull the trigger and say, now I'm going to subject myself to this. That'd be.

[Leo Grillo]

Well, as your earlier guest has proven, you don't have to spend all of your time in Sacramento. I mean, you got to spend on his national tour for the presidency for the last eight years.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, but, but he's, but he, you know, he was there for, as lieutenant governor, yet California governor spent a lot of time in LA and elsewhere. But you can't spend no time in Sacramento. And you've got to do the job and you have to deal with the legislature and your legislature. I wouldn't say it's the most unpleasant to deal with in America, but it's right up there, pretty close. Yeah. I want to ask you about the Trump administration. When I was thinking about, well, what do I want to talk to the Jessica's about, I thought it's kind of be like saying let's talk about the Bible. Like there's a lot of stories in this administration. Right. A lot going on and themes and people. So I want to start with something I know Jessica Reed Kraus is super interested in, which is Maha and Bobby Kennedy. Jessica, what are your thoughts about how it's going so far? What's going well with Maha? What do you wish was going better?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Well, can I first just say I think it's funny you brought up the Bible because I just, I ordered a Bible from Amazon. I haven't read it before. So I do think there are a lot of biblical things happening within this administration, which as a writer I love. But I mean, I'm a Bobby Kennedy die hard. Right. I've watched him from the beginning and I've talked to so many people from his, from, from the old days who have seen him, what he's gone through to get his message out. And, and so I, for me, I am personally very inspired by what's happening. I think he's making a Lot of action pretty quickly, and I think he's going full force now that he has a team behind him. So, you know, but there's interesting things happen with, happening within the base. As far as, like, is he not doing enough?

[Gavin Newsom]

Is.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

He's not, you know, he said this about autism or he said this about vaccines. It's not. It doesn't align with what, you know, we think over here. We think over here. So there's. There's sort of like internal conflict. But I think, you know, I went to the HHS hearing last week, and he was taking. It was about the food, but food dice. He's eliminating. And I just think he's on a great path right now. And I am so excited that he's where he's at, doing what he's.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Stay with you for a second. Is there anything you wish was happening faster or that he was doing differently, or you're just basically happy with the whole thing?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Well, I just, I feel like the Trump. The whole administration is on warp speed right now. I mean, a lot's happening. He has all these studies going on. He's gotten rid of a lot of things that he found unnecessary, and I think he's talking about a lot of things that fringe Americans were interested in, and he's bringing them into a national, you know, making it a national conversation. Even. Even the chemtrails stuff that's like, things we used to talk about in quiet corners.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Jess Other Jessica, I've been a believer in the power of the Maha movement for a long, for. Since. Since he's ran as a. Originally as a Democrat. Do you have a sense of. Of. Can you characterize, characterize, quality, qualitate? How big is it? How big is its potential not just to change the health of our kids and our. And our country, but to realign our politics?

[Leo Grillo]

I think that the mom movement is huge. Right Back in, you know, the Bush days, we would talk about soccer moms, right? This is something that has been going on for a very long time. And I know I can probably speak for Jessica as well. The other Jessica. We get these, you know, conversations, and when we started, you know, I was a background person for a very, very long time. And once I was out in the foreground with my last job, the amount of moms that would come up to me and obviously is very anecdotal and like, whisper to me and, you know, thank you for what you do, or my husband who works in academia, the people that would come up to him and, oh, my gosh, I saw Your wife on the news the other day. And so this movement and the things that are being talked about. Right. They're like what we would over the, you know, our lifetimes think as common sense things. You know, we want to know what's going on with our kids in school. We want to be the decision makers in their lives. We don't want undue influence on our children and the culture and the values. We think that that should be done in the home. You know, these are all things that for a very long time, and I would venture to say our entire lifetimes and prior to that, you know, we have always believed that that was the role of the parent. And particularly here in California, we see this radical side of the Democrat Party. It's not all Democrats. It's this radical side of the Democrat Party who do not believe that we have the rights to raise our children with the values that we see fit.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah. Again, are talking to Jessica Milan Patterson, former chair, until just recently, the California Republican Party and my friend, Jessica Reed Kraus, who I call Voice of a Generation. If you don't subscribe to her substack or follow her on Instagram, you're making one of the biggest mistakes of your life. That's that simple. Ladies, I want to talk about the administration again more. Leave out the president, leave out the vice president, and leave out Bobby Kennedy, because I know Jessica has her ties there. Jessica Reed Krause first, who would you like to have dinner in the friend the Trump administration. And why?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Dinner. Who would I want to have dinner with?

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah. And why? Susie Wiles. Tell us. Tell us why.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Well, I'm just, you know, I feel like she's sort of a mystery. We know she's a powerful force and she's in charge of a lot of the decisions and she's, you know, kind of guiding some of these wild characters. Just I'm so fascinated by her. And I like that we don't know a lot about her. It doesn't seem like she wants to be, you know. Really?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

It's like she, he Trump has a lot of people around him who want to be.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

In front of the can be out there.

[Leo Grillo]

Yeah.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

And she's an interesting woman.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I felt so fortunate that I knew her not super well, but I knew her a little bit before, you know, she became famous back in the 2016 campaign. And she is a super interesting person. I agree. Jessica Milan Patterson, who would you choose and why?

[Leo Grillo]

So professionally, without a doubt, it's Suzy Wiles. I think that she is the neck of the operation, obviously, President Trump is the head. She is the one that is steering the direction and the work that she does behind the scenes.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

If I can book her for dinner with the four of us, would you guys come to.

[Leo Grillo]

I would fly anywhere for it.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Tell us when, Mark. If anyone could do it, it's you.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

So I want, I've been wanting to have dinner with Susie and she's very busy. Like, you know, she's constantly on in demand as a chief of staff. So I'm going to use the leverage because she probably would rather have dinner with you two than with me. So stand by Susie. If you're watching, let's have dinner for four. You know what? She can choose where we go. She's not a big sushi person, I think.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

So whatever Susie wants, where they're wants.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Okay, that sounds good. Who, who in the administration would you like to give some advice to? If you could speak to one person and tell them what you think they need to do better, differently, who would it be and what would you tell them? Starting with you, Jessica. Milan Patterson.

[Leo Grillo]

So, you know, I generally don't like to be too critical of Republicans. I feel that the Democrats do enough, that we have enough to talk about.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Just constructive advice. Doesn't have to be super negative.

[Leo Grillo]

Yeah, I would say just a general, like stay off a signal. You know, I think that was an unforced error. And that would be my advice to the whole group.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

The whole group. All right, Jessica, other Jessica, who would you give advice to and what would it be?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Oh, gosh, I don't really like giving advice to anyone, but if I, if I had to, maybe Elon Musk just like, calm down. Like, sit, sit down, calm down.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah. Also good. In terms of media, Jessica, you provide, you produce so much incredible content to keep up with what's going on in not just our politics, but in our culture and in, and in parenting, etc. Jessica Reed Kress, what are things you read or listen to or watch besides this program that you would recommend to people? What are some things that you find so.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Like guides for media?

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah, but media broadly defined, like to be a good citizen, to understand what's going on, not just with the Trump administration, but with our culture, science, medicine, raising kids. What are things that, that are important to you to understand?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

I mean, honestly, I get a lot of my information from public comments. I go into comments, I watch YouTube videos and I read what everybody's saying, and I go into chat rooms and I go into Reddit forums, and that's kind of where you pull what everyday Americans are thinking. I. I don't know that I have regular points in media that I even try. I feel like it's just such a weird time for media right now, trying to figure what. Who we trust and who we like and.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Yeah.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Who we want to give our time to.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Do you read like the Wall. The Wall Street Journal or the LA Times? Do you read stuff like that?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Yes, I do. I'll read especially, like there's, you know, style sections and stuff. I do read Air Mel. I like Air Mail. I still like Rating Carter stuff. And I read, you know, I love gossip. Tina Brown on Substack. Substack has a great roundup right now, so I kind of stick to mostly the independent angle, but I just, I like reading people comments.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Right. Okay. Other Jessica, what are, what are. What is in your media diet that you would recommend to other people?

[Leo Grillo]

Yeah, so I always talk about priorities versus balancing. And so priorities every single day. My number one priority is to be a good wife to Wes Patterson. Number two is to be a good mom to Abby and Maddie. And then my job or whatever all falls underneath that. There are a few things that I think that really affect your everyday life and it's choices that you make every single day. I'm a huge fan of Dave Ramsey and the financial freedom that comes with his processes. We listen to that with both of our daughters who are 10 and 12, and as the person's calling in, we will say, pause it. Tell us when to pause it, and you can tell us when this person has made a bad life decision. So things like that. We're also a practicing Catholic family. And so for us, our faith is something that's critical and central to our entire lives. So when I'm taking the girls to school in the morning, we pray the first three decades of a rosary. We go to church on Sundays. This is our community. So I think that there are things that you have control over, certainly the things that you put in front of your children. And, you know, the other day, Abigail and I, yesterday, Madeline and I were listening to your podcast and she heard that Gavin Newsom was going to be on on Thursday. And she was like, when is that guy done? Right? So they are politically informed as well. I think that has a lot to do with who their mom is. But, you know, those are the types of things that, you know, we try and be careful about what put in front of them because the rest of the world will try and brainwash your children. And so it has to be our job to make sure that their foundation, their roots are good enough where they can defend it.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Let me ask you about that. Would you guys like the government to play a bigger role in regulating social media? Is that something you'd like to see?

[Leo Grillo]

Oh, gosh, I'm generally against it. I think that that is the role of parents, and I think that a lot of parents have given the keys to the children in this instance, and giving them phones too early and giving them iPads and, you know, having them be the babysitters of their children.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

And are your kids on social media now?

[Leo Grillo]

So they have Facebook accounts from when they were born, but they don't have access to them. So I just tag them in everything. But no, they have. They're 10 and 12. They do not have social media.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

They do not have phones, not even access to YouTube.

[Leo Grillo]

Kids, too.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Kids too. All right, Jessica, your youngest boy is how old?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

He's just 10. He's going to be 11 this week.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

All right, so we're at the same age. How do you feel about government regulation of social media?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

You know, I'm conflicted because I do think I have four boys, and the older ones are all on social media, and it is really hard to monitor four kids, you know, their activity, especially as they get older and they're not around you all the time. I don't know. You know, I was a part of the. I covered Melania Trump's Take it Down act. So I think there's some things there where it's really good because, I mean, even as an adult, the bullying we. We go through without any, you know, there's. There's no one to talk to. Like, sometimes it is scary when it ramps up and there's. There's literally no one that we can contact to really get it under control. So I don't know, I'm kind of curious again, to get a public opinion on it, because I don't really know.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

I want to close by talking a little bit more about the administration. And Jessica Reed Kraus, one of your great gifts is you not just see glamour, but you're able to put it in sharp relief, whether it's in your writing or in video or photos. What's glamorous to you about this Trump tour term?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

What's not glamorous about it? I mean, look at our first lady. Like, I think we have, you know, it's. It's a glamorous era. It's sort of.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

What are you. What are you pointing to? Besides the first lady, who is objectively glamorous, Is it, is it the cabinet members? Is it the vibe? What's glamorous about it?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Well, I think, you know, if you look at Trump as the ultimate showman, which is how I see him and who he surrounded himself with all these flashy, beautiful characters, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, Bobby Kennedy, Elon Musk, these are all this is to me, this is the greatest stage and the greatest show on earth right now. So I love every day I wake up excited to watch the lives, you know, because you're getting like sort of a comedian. You never know who's going to show up at the White House. I, I find it.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Who's, who's the comedian?

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Our president.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Oh, okay. The comic in chief. He's underrated as a comedian. I agree with you. Other Jessica, you like glamour, too. Maybe not spend much time on it.

[Leo Grillo]

But I would say that it's very interesting that you use this word. I interviewed Senate Majority Leader John Thune last week and he used that exact word. Except in fact, President Trump said to him when they were talking about the big beautiful bill, he said he's never had a piece of legislation referred to as glamorous. Everything about this presidency, everything about this administration and all that surrounds it, they are putting in glamour. You know, when we see him talking to networks that we wouldn't expect him to talk to, sitting down with journalists that we wouldn't expect him to talk to, he is doing it because he knows the value of people seeing it. We have these open cabinet meetings because he knows what the value to people seeing what is going on behind the scenes and having these conversations is. And it is all the glamour that you could expect.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

What would you say to Democrats or independents who don't like this administration and seem closed off to not just enjoying what you all you both see in terms of glamour, but being supportive of their agenda, what would you say to them to convince them to be more open minded?

[Leo Grillo]

So I generally wouldn't. The ones that aren't ready to be open minded to it, like, I wouldn't really waste my time on it. Like, my job has always been to get more Republicans elected. And if Democrats continue down this path where I think a lot of them are putting their head in the sand and not paying attention to what happened in November and what's been happening over the last 100 days, I think they do it at their own peril. And this is a time, you know, history tells us that a midterm could be very, very good for the opposition party. But what it seems like for Democrats is they're not going out and doing anything. They're not going out and showing this is what we would do instead or this is what is wrong with what they are doing. They're just waiting for our plans to fail. And I don't think that you win people over by rooting against America. You know, Jessica and I both live here in California. Neither of us want to see California failure. We want to see California be a successful state. It just hasn't been able to do that over the last 15 years with one party rule. So I don't know that there's a whole lot that you can say to convince people to have an open mind about things. But what I would say is that they have an opportunity and you know, Republicans have to go and deliver on all of these promises.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Great. Both Jessica's I couldn't be happier to have you on second episode and I hope you'll come back and as we say, make California great again. Whoever the next governor is, I hope they make your, they give your kids and your families a great state to live in and, and address some of the problems that are clearly still bothering a lot of folks. But thank you both for being here.

[Jessica Reed Kraus]

Thank you, Mark.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

Thanks.

[Leo Grillo]

Had such a great time.

[Jessica Milan Patterson]

All right, those are the two Jessica's when we come back. I'll close things out on Next up right after this. Thanks for watching this week's Next Stop. I'm very grateful to you. We'll see you next week. Again, we're on Tuesdays and Thursdays on podcast platforms and on YouTube. You can like and subscribe pretty much anywhere you want. Grateful to Governor Newsom and the two Jessica's and to you for watching. We'll see you for season one, Episode three on Tuesday.

[Mark Davis]

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[Jessica Milan Patterson]

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[Mark Davis]

Go to henrymeds.com Pandora and get $100 off your first month. That's henrymeds.com Pandora results may vary. Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for.