← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
What Charlie Kirk Assassination Reveals About Dems and Media, and Kamala's Book Tour Flops, w/ McCain & Ferguson
01:10:49
Mark Halperin opens with his latest reported monologue on Charlie Kirk’s assassination and the ongoing distorted coverage surrounding it. He reveals how the Dominant Media, aligned with Democratic leaders, downplays the significance of Kirk’s life and murder — and how it is echoing their role in obscuring Joe Biden’s decline. Mark explains how this “conspiracy of camaraderie” further erodes public trust in legacy outlets, deepens polarization, and signals that political violence is too often judged by partisan affiliation. Democrats’ reluctance to empathize with those mourning Kirk, he argues, reinforces the perception that ideology determines which tragedies matter. Meghan McCain and Ben Ferguson join to discuss America’s reckoning with Kirk’s murder, Erica Kirk’s extraordinary grace, and their own experiences with political threats tied to their Republican affiliations. They also unpack the start of Kamala Harris’s awkward book tour — marked by slights toward prominent Democrats...
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- [00:00]
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- [01:19]
Mark Halperin
Welcome back Everybody. This is NextUp. Grateful to you all for being here. I met so many Nexters when I was in Arizona over the weekend covering the memorial service for Charlie Kirk and had an extraordinary experience hearing from folks about their appreciation for the program and of course experiencing through their eyes what not just Sunday was like, but the entire experience of grappling with the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the aftermath. So, going to talk about what's next up for the country for both political parties and for people around again. I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief of the live interactive video platform 2way, host of this program where I try to bring you my exclusive reporting from around the country, around the world, analysis of all the top news and all the stories that matter most so we can all try to figure out together what's going to happen next up. Joining us today on the program, two super smart people who've been here and who I like talking to so much. Meghan McCain of Citizen McCain, my colleague on two way, and Ben Ferguson, host of the Ben Ferguson Podcast, also co hosts the Verdict with Ted Cruz. They'll both be here. We'll talk about Charlie Kirk and how the country's grappling with that and also about Kamala Harris and her book tour and then some other political stuff with the two of Them. I'm looking forward to that. But first, my reported monologue. I did spend the weekend in Arizona going to what was an extraordinary event in so many ways. And I've been trying to understand what happened, how Charlie Kirk could have been assassinated. And some of that is just a practical question of how someone who'd received so many death threats, how someone who knew the dangers he took going out in public could have been assassinated. There's just some practical questions there. But then the larger question of how people in the country are experiencing it so differently. I was so grateful to have the opportunity to go cover that event and to talk to so many people who'd come from all over the country to be there, whether they were able to get in the building or not. They were so happy to be part of it. And there was a joy at such a sad occasion to be there. The reaction to it all has been so confusing to me, particularly for people on the left and, and I continue to hear from Democrats who I know some, some viewers of my work on Two Way, or viewers or listeners to this program who continue to say, you know, even post funeral, boy, I'd never heard of Charlie Kirk or boy I'd heard of him, but I didn't know much about him. And they so rarely evince any understanding. And I say that with a broken heart of why Charlie Kirk meant so much not just to the President of the United States and the Vice President and so many members of his cabinet and his administration, but to people around the country. I've said before Charlie died and I talked to him about it directly on my shows, there was no Democratic version. There is no Democratic version of Charlie Kirk. And that has some practical implications. There's no one who played at his level in dealing with the political world or media in such a diverse way, but there's no one who was the beating heart and soul, the spirit of a movement. And, and there are some smaller movements in the Democratic Party, right? Bernie Sanders, aoc, talking about post Barack Obama. But there's no movement on the left like maga. And the entire Republican Party, almost without exception, is now part of maga. And Charlie Kirk was central to that and such a well liked guy. And so the immediate aftermath of his assassination, we saw appreciation and sadness and anger on the right of people who not just knew Charlie Kirk was, but knew him either directly because they were his friend and I met so many of them in Arizona, or they felt they knew him because they listened to his show or they watched him at Turning Points, events or events with the president and others. And then so many Democrats who had, had. Would denounce violence but didn't have appreciation either for what Charlie Kirk meant to the MAGA movement or for the positive aspects of him. What they wanted to say was, well, we denounce all violence and we denounce some of the things Charlie Kirk stood for in their, in their, in their view of what he stood for. So since his death, since his assassination, we've continued to see an unfortunate split, not just in the reaction to his assassination, but in the reaction to the reaction. And the, you know, the most stark thing is Jimmy Kimmel and how his suspension for a time was seen differently depending on who you were. And then of course, complicated by the fact that a lot of people on the right said, well, I don't like Jimmy Kimmel, but I don't like the fact that the Trump administration has kind of gotten involved there with the FCC and the president speaking out. But this is, this is in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, people paid lip service to. Well, this is an opportunity for the country to come together, an opportunity. And we don't see many examples of anyone taking advantage of that. So often, so often there are people I talk to on the right who look at the media along with other liberal institutions, but particularly the media as the main culprit in dividing the country and in driving many people into the arms of Donald Trump. Talked about this for a decade. There are people who vote for Donald Trump who don't like him, don't agree with him on a lot of policies, although maybe agree on some, but don't like his style, don't like the way he conducts himself. That's so common. But they often say they're for Donald Trump because of the liberal media bias. They just, they just can't tolerate it. And, and the only way they can see to send a message of the need for change is through voting for Donald Trump, supporting Donald Trump. It's interesting because we do see some big changes. We've talked about them here. Elon Musk buying Twitter, turning it to X. The new owners of cbs, Friends of the President. There's now talk of this deal for TikTok that would involve TikTok being largely in the control of entities friendly with Donald Trump. All this is, is massive change. But you still hear so often from folks about the bias. One of the things I love about hosting programs on two ways I hear from people around the country. Sometimes they're people who come back on a regular basis. And I kind of know their point of view. But this past week, or I should say earlier this week, had a woman come on named Carrie from Chicago. And just sometimes you hear from an everyday American and they sum things up. And I want to play for you what Carrie from Chicago said when she came on two ways and talked about the parallel she sees between the coverage of the decline in Joe Biden's mental acuity while he was president and the coverage of the assassination of Charlie Kirk. So let's listen. This is just a woman who called in on our platform. Anybody can come on the platform and raise their hand and get called on to ask a question or make a comment. This is Kerry from Chicago. This is clip S4, please.
- [09:08]
Kerry from Chicago
So I think what I found during the Biden administration and once I started watching independent media was this frustration over all these lies that the media was telling me that the mainstream media, you know, dominant media was telling me. And, and there was this watershed moment. Everybody remembers it. It was the night of the debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden where Joe sat with his mouth agape, you know, and looked like the walking corpse. And the next day it was, it felt to me as if the heavens had parted. All of the news media started saying, he's not fit, he's not right, he's not okay. He's not who we thought. And after months and months and months of being told that he was sharp as a tack, that these were cheap fakes, that he was okay. And so I really thought after that moment, this is it. This is going to be the moment we finally have honesty from the media and the mainstream media is going to start being honest again. And that lasted all of about two weeks when Charlie was murdered. I think I had sort of the same reaction that I had after the Biden debate when, when the media started being honest for a couple of weeks, I thought finally, like we're going to finally have an honest conversation about what's going on. And there's no possible way that anybody could spin the assassination of Charlie Kirk into anything other than what it was.
- [10:32]
Mark Halperin
Wow.
- [10:34]
Kerry from Chicago
I couldn't have been more wrong. You know, not only was I horrified by the people celebrating the assassination of Charlie, but the disgusting attempts to spin it different ways. And I'm not talking about far people. I mean, NBC News this weekend came out saying there's no evidence that the shooter had any ties to left wing groups. Jimmy Kimmel saying he's Maga Montel Williams on CNN saying that they're star cross lovers. ABC's Matt Gutman saying You know, they, they were sharing, touching texts and, and the lying is just making me absolutely insane.
- [11:10]
Mark Halperin
Such clarity, emotional clarity, intellectual clarity from Kerry. I feel, I feel that, as we often say on two ways, she speaks for tens of millions. And the Biden thing is so instructive, and we've talked about that so often here, here, here. Was the press exposed during the debate between Biden and Trump for years of colluding with Democrats in the Biden White House on Capitol Hill to try, failed for so many Americans, but try to cover up the Joe Biden's loss of mental acuity. Then the debate happens and all of a sudden the emperor has no clothes. Everybody's talking about it. And then as Kerry points out, the press just went right back. Not just bias generally, but a failure to acknowledge the media's own role in what happened. And then of course you had with the Tapper Thompson book, et cetera, a accusing of Democrats, but not an acknowledgment of the media's role. So then we fast forward to, you know, the events of a few weeks ago when Charlie was assassinated. And, and I thought, as Kerry did that, well, okay, this will be a moment of clarity for the press and for Democrats. They don't have to endorse Turning Point USA and they don't have to say that, you know, Charlie Kirk is their hero. But, but Kerry expected, as I did, for there to be some consciousness raising, for them to be an acknowledgement, to demonstrate an acknowledgment of the pain being felt by followers of Charlie Kirk, including the president, to set aside their anger over January 6th and Donald Trump's policies and not to try to erase history and not to say everything's forgiven now or the ledger's clear, we're all just the best of friends, but to rise to the occasion instead, and it really wasn't even a day, characterizing Charlie Kirk as a, as a right wing activist cherry picking things he said that they found to be negative, mischaracterizing things. This has really affected people like Kerry. I heard it down in Arizona. Not angry people in Arizona because everybody there was so many lifted up by the event, but, but just saying how could this be? And part of it is the media. Even though Charlie went out of his way to talk to so called mainstream reporters, the, the, the collusion, the conspiracy of camaraderie between the media, the dominant media and Democrats has not been broken. Even though there have been, as I said, some developments that have changed things. It's not been broken. And on Sunday the very day that the President and the Vice president, many members of the cabinet and the administration and tens of thousands of people gathered in Arizona watched on television, watched online even on that day, you saw in vivid display the media, the dominant media and Democrats once again displaying a lack of understanding, a lack of sensitivity, a lack of appreciation for what the assassination of one of the most important people in MAGA meant. And, and I'll say again, had that been a 31 year old overachiever who helped to elect, say, Barack Obama as a Democrat and that person had been assassinated by someone who killed him for the words he uttered, I don't think you would have seen the Sunday shows devoted the way they were, not just to allowing Democrats to criticize Charlie Kirk on the day he was being commemorated, but to talk about lots of other topics, to not cover very much of the ceremony live and to cover things that are significant. Kimmel allegations against Mr. Homans, all sorts of issues to be covered. But on the day that a genuine hero was being celebrated, to let this happen. I want to show you a couple clips that are representative of this Democrat media collusion to try to avoid an honest reckoning, an honest celebration. And I give credit to Eric Erickson, great broadcaster, writer, recommend his substack to you. Eric rounded up some, some sound bites that I think are extremely instructive, extremely instructive. Here is John Ossoff who represents Georgia in the United States Senate, where Eric's from Georgia Democrat on television on Sunday talking about comparing in a way that, you know, I hope he wouldn't have done had it not been live. People say things live, but it's reflective of the mindset I'm talking about. Here's Jon Ossoff, Democratic Senator from Georgia. This is S2, please. Comparing two things that should not be compared. S2, please. Violence targeting political activists, no matter how strongly we may disagree with their views, is completely unacceptable. And it's incompatible with a free society and a flourishing democracy. And we should be united in recognizing that. For politicians, for the state, for the government to use official power to intimidate critics, to silence those who speak in ways the government doesn't like, is also fundamentally inconsistent with a free society and a flourishing democracy. Now look, I agree with Jon Ossoff, obviously no one wants political assassinations. And I agree with him that the government should not be trying to intimidate private companies on the basis of speech, but to equate them, to compare them. Around the time that Charlie Kirk is being laid to rest by, by the country, just it's just Representative and of course, not being challenged by, by the interviewer. This is, this is a problem, okay. And it's a problem of, not just of tone, it's a problem. Not just of, of partisanship. It's a problem because I'll say again, Democrats must understand what's happening here, why people are so upset about what happened. Okay? Now here's another one. This is Caitlin Collins of CNN talking to Representative Elon Omar, Democrat, once again. Imagine if on a day around the time that someone like Charlie Kirk, who was, if it were a Democrat, was being laid to rest, imagine if a Republican House member said this kinds of thing, said this kind of thing and how the press would react. Here's Kaitlan Collins of CNN with Representative Ilhan Omar of Minnesota.
- [18:15]
Kaitlan Collins
And no one is saying that you have to whitewash what he did or that you have to defend what he said or the views that he held. But regardless of those views, do you believe the timing of saying that the day after that he was assassinated, the comments there, do you regret the timing of those comments?
- [18:36]
Ilhan Omar
Do you think Charlie regretted mocking George Floyd's death as his seven year old pled to the world on what happened to her child? I think saying what Charlie did and who he was has nothing to do with his assassination. Has nothing to do with the timing of his assassination. It is a matter of record.
- [19:00]
Kaitlan Collins
I ask because the way former President Obama put it, he also said he thought that Charlie Kirk's ideas and views were wrong. Yes, but he said, and I'm quoting Obama now, we have to extend grace to people during their period of mourning and shock. Does he have a point?
- [19:17]
Ilhan Omar
Yeah, I extend grace to his wife and kids. I cannot imagine what they are going through. But the reality is that his wife sat by him as he said those things and did not tell him that these are human beings who you are calling garbage, who you are saying they don't have the brain power because they were born in a different skin color. Like, I do not understand how we are okay as a society with people who say that about our fellow Americans and fellow human beings and regard them as a hero. I just, I'm sorry, I don't see.
- [19:54]
Mark Halperin
It makes me so sad to hear that. And again, I don't like to take someone's statement in a live interview or even a speech and, and say this represents exactly what they meant to say. People say stuff, it's live. But I feel like she meant what she said and, and it's representative of a mindset in the media. And amongst Democrats to say, sure, it's sad for his family, but the more important thing is to single out things he said or didn't say and no fact checking. I just asked people on the left, people in the media to think about if that were a Democrat who was killed, if that were a Republican saying these things on that occasion, right around the day in Arizona where he, he was being memorialized. This is, this is, this is a reaction to the assassination of a 31 year old father of two who was so important to tens of millions of people. And now we have to digress, we have to diagnose, we have to break down, we have to dissect. Why, why do they feel compelled on this occasion to say what they said? Is it, is it, is it out of principle? Is there something emotional, psychological going on? How can we be as a country so divided about this? And I listen so closely when I hear Democrats say, well, it's, of course we condemn violence and there's no room in our society for political assassination. But, and there's a but, always a but to say, well, but he was, he was a bad guy or he said things he shouldn't have said or he helped Donald Trump get elected. This country has to be introspective for our kids, for our future to say, what can we learn from the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination? Not from the assassination itself, although there are lessons from that to be sure, of course. But what about the reaction? Are Democrats and the media proud of their reaction? Are the press proud of the way this has been covered? I'm such a, such a close reader, I dare say sophisticated reader of the New York Times and the Washington Post look every day since Charlie was killed, how they're covering it, what are the stories they choose to emphasize? What are the, what's the spin they put on it? What's the framing they put on it? And are they eager to understand, for instance, the motives of the killer? And you think back to Carrie, who we played for you, and her analysis of the coverage. Part of what troubles people is if this were a Democrat killed by someone for their speech, for their views, there'd be a lot more coverage of the connections of, and the motives of as we can divine them, the killer. There's no doubt about that. The press doesn't want to cover that. The Democrats don't want to talk about it, and the press doesn't make the Democrats talk about it. Okay, there'd be a lot more coverage of all what that Charlie accomplished. There'd be A lot more coverage of why people felt so passionately about him. As I was in the arena, the stadium in, in Arizona before the event, as I said, lots of people came up to me, talked to me about the show and talked to me about my appearances on Charlie's show. And they, three of them in particular, told me, sat with them, I had the luxury of time before the event started. Three of them told me, all separately, stories about their relationship with Charlie, how much he helped them, how much time he made for them. One guy lived two blocks away, had his own organization. And no matter how big Charlie got, and by the time of his death, of course, he was a, he was a friend of and a conspirator with the President, the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, collaborating on some of the most complicated public policy and political matters of the day. And even then, he made time for these folks. Listen to, as I recommend everyone does, the podcasts that are being done on Charlie's platform in his absence by people like Tucker Carlson to learn more about why they loved him so much. And what emerges is a portrait of a guy who you could disagree with politically, but a man of an incredible work ethic, an incredible heart. And the Democrats don't want to confront that. They don't want to confront the fact that this guy was not just talented and ambitious, but cared about people. We saw the report that he reached out to Van Jones of cnn, something he and Charlie and I talked about. The comments that Van Jones made about Charlie right before he was killed, he reached out to Van Jones and said, let's, let's have a conversation. And of course, Van Jones attitude was, ah, you know, maybe not this, this great man who was killed for his beliefs has led to more division in his death because the country can't come around to the common cause of not just denouncing political assassination. That ain't hard to do. The common cause is to say to your fellow Americans, we grieve for you, we grieve for his family. We understand that this was a man who had accepted Jesus's personal savior and lived a life meant to make that central to how he did things personally and professionally. There has been much coverage of Erica Kirk's comments over the weekend. The extraordinary act of forgiveness that she gave the alleged killer of her husband. I'll say again, if that were a Democrat doing that would have been a lot more coverage, would have been a lot more discussion of the extraordinary courage and grace and, and generosity of Erica Kirk. And for people like Kerry, just an everyday American watching all of this to see cover up of Joe, attempted cover up of Joe Biden's decline. No change in press coverage, no change in attitude. And now to see what for so many people is a searing event. A searing event. Now, Dr. King was killed when the Kennedys were killed. There was no video, there was no daily program of a host two hours a day coming right into the homes and on the phones of people. There is an intimate connection for so many to Charlie Kirk. And now people have been forced to watch him being killed. This is a traumatic event and the media and the Democrats are treating it like a conversation starter. I'm no doubt that many, many Democrats are sorry about what happened, but they need to appreciate why for people like Kerry, the coverage now, the normal bias, the normal Trump derangement syndrome driven coverage, it's just too much. Ask people in the press, ask Democrats. Just think about it as I have from the beginning, literally the first day. Think about it. Think about what your words are doing. Think about when you go compare the temporary suspension of Jimmy Kimmel to the death of Charlie Kirk. Think about when on the eve of the memorial service taking the time to criticize with factual errors Charlie Kirk and his widow. Think about it. The other side isn't perfect. There are plenty of things to criticize about Donald Trump and the Republican Party, including this weekend. But think about the time and place and think about how people are grieving. And if you're in the media, think about if you're covering things in a way that are doing justice, not just to the death of assassination of Charlie Kirk, but to our profession. Listen to the words of Kerry from Chicago and understand that an event that you would hope would bring the country together, unfortunately through the actions of some pretty elite and sophisticated people, are dividing us even more. I'll keep working at this because I don't want this to divide us. But this is a tough struggle when people in the media allow Democrats to say what they've allowed them to say over the last few days and when people in the media are covering this in a way that is not commensurate with our responsibilities or with the very raw feelings that still exist for so many. Grateful to you for listening as always. Would love to know what you think. Send me an email if you'd like to weigh in. And next up joining me will be Megan McCain and Ben Ferguson. We'll talk more about Charlie. We'll talk about also what's going on with Kamala Harris and her book. That's next up. Attention anyone 64 years old or older. This is an important announcement. The Department of Justice recently sued three major Medicare brokers for claiming they were unbiased while allegedly pushing people into plans that got them the biggest kickbacks. It's true so many insurance agents, they can't be trusted. 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- [30:35]
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- [31:24]
Mark Halperin
All right, next up, two great guests, two folks who've been here and love having on my two way colleague Megan McCain, host of Citizen McCain on the two way platform and Ben Ferguson, host of the aptly named Ben Ferguson Podcast, co host of the Verdict with Ted Cruz. Welcome to you both. Coming back. I want to start with what I talked about in my monologue about how the country is reacting to the reaction to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Megan, how would you sort of set the stage here of where we are right now? Are things still moving quickly or moving in any direction or are things settling down from your point of view?
- [32:04]
Megan McCain
I think people are still grieving and still processing what happened. And even one of my girlfriends yesterday said I saw two murders last week on social media, obviously the Ukrainian woman who was stabbed to death, and then obviously Charlie Kirk. So I think people are still processing it. But a lot of people I know and myself included, were so inspired by Erica's speech and eulogy that I think there's a lot of healing going on. And I just think, not to be gross, but politically, I think it's very hard to debate that Republicans look like the more peaceful party and the more peaceful group of people after a tragedy. As she pointed out, there was prayer and coming together and, you know, fellowship and community. And I know when a figure on the left dies, it's looting and chaos and, you know, possibly hurting police officers. So I think the politics of it are also very interesting as well as the cultural and social element of it.
- [33:03]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, well said, Ben. Leaving aside the question of Jimmy Kimmel and your co host Senator Cruz view, which is shared by other conservatives, Wall Street Journal, ed Board, et cetera, how would you characterize what the divisions are between red and blue America in thinking about the assassination of Charlie Kirk? What are sort of the areas of even, let's say, legitimate dispute between how people are processing it?
- [33:28]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, I think it's interesting to see that there's such love and compassion that has happened from conservatives. You know, I was at the funeral and I can tell you it did not feel political being there. It felt spiritual. The praise and worship that was beforehand. The people that were there were there because they just felt called to show up. The plane that I was on out there, when we landed, it just started seeing Amazing Grace. And it was one of those moments you're like, is this happening on a united flight? This is in Southwest. And even the people that morning that were showing up and. And they knew they weren't going to get in. They weren't angry. They just wanted to be with other people that were grieving. I saw people that were just sitting around talking to one another that didn't get in. And it was sad because there's a hundred thousand people basically did showed up, didn't have a ticket, no one had a ticket. In essence, it was just general admission. And when they Shut those doors. A little before 8 o', clock, there was a hundred thousand people. They're like, what do we do? No one was angry. They were. I saw people holding hands and praying. And that was, I think, the most striking difference between we watched one of our own, literally a friend of mine be assassinated. And there was no looting or rioting or anger or revenge. It was come together, love, pray and recenter around. Okay, what was his goal? What would he want us to do? You looked at his wife when she said, I forgive the killer. I don't know if I could have done that. But I also being in the room, understood what her point was, which was, I have to move on with his legacy. I don't have time to hate him. I don't have time to want revenge. He wanted to bring people together. He wanted to have a grand debate on college campuses. I actually think you're going to see a different Republican Party. The people that I saw, whether it was Tucker Carlson or Megyn Kelly or the members of the Cabinet, Caspitel, there was a different temperature and it was really low. I talked with Glenn Beck for a moment and it was the same thing with him. I think my demeanor is probably going to change when I'm on TV fighting people that I disagree with, because I think that's where we're headed now. And so look, if the Democratic Party, if you talk the politics for it for a second, Mark, I think there is a need for a leader in the Democratic Party right now to take the lead and to ratchet down the anger, the bitterness. I mean, the fact that they couldn't get a unanimous vote with Democrats in the House to just say this is wrong. What happened to Charlie Kirk is beyond me. And the fact that the leaders, the de facto leaders, the Democratic Party out there still being angry, you look at guys like Keith Olbermann who referred to a good friend of mine over at CNN saying that, Scott Jennings, you're next. And put that on X. Like, what world are we living in after what we just saw, where that is appropriate? And so I hope somebody will step forward and do that.
- [36:16]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, Ben, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, I was out on the streets around the city stadium at about 4am and then I was there for more than 12 hours. And, and during the, the ceremony itself, I had the exact same reaction you did, which is I thought, I wish everyone in the country could be here. I wish everyone could feel what's in this room. Set aside their nitpicking about things they may not have liked about Charlie Kirk and just appreciate the spirit in the room and how much people wanted to grieve together and how much they wanted to think about the future. My thought throughout and, and I have from the beginning I have been so concerned. The Democrats and you both have seen this. I still hear from people saying I never really heard of Charlie Kirk, didn't really know anything about him and, and even now they don't. One of the best ways for Democrats and others to understand Charlie is to listen to the podcast which is being carried on. There's no long term plan, but Tucker hosted an episode and others have. I want you to listen to a little bit. Blake Neff, one of the producers there who used to work with Tucker. This is a clip from the show and, and talks about the, the thing that, that Erica Kirk did in forgiving the alleged killer, which again, people look at as a piece of tv, a little piece of video. But it's profound and, and, and, and the meaning of it, I think needs to be considered by, by people more deeply. So here's a piece of sound from Charlie's podcast with his team.
- [37:46]
Blake Neff
This powerful moment where she said what for many Benny is the unthinkable. I forgive this man who just robbed the world of a great hero and a titan of a man, our friend. But I'm very well aware that yes, he was my dear personal friend, we spent so much time together, but yet he belongs to the world. He belongs to history. And here Eric is, was doing this not out of a personal relationship, you know, with her husband, but really like, because she understands that she is an instrument for God right now.
- [38:23]
Ben Ferguson
Yes.
- [38:23]
Blake Neff
And so she dug so deep and did this beautiful thing and it's created a lot of chatter online and I want to get into it now. What's the clip, guys? It's 1919. Go ahead and play it.
- [38:36]
Mark Halperin
On the cross.
- [38:36]
Megan McCain
Our savior said.
- [38:43]
Ben Ferguson
Father, forgive them for they not know what they do.
- [38:50]
Megan McCain
That man.
- [38:53]
Mark Halperin
That young man.
- [38:58]
Megan McCain
I forgive him. Him.
- [39:09]
Mark Halperin
Megan, I, I don't know how old a kid would have to be for a parent to try to explain that. Your girls are probably a little too young maybe. But how would you explain to a child old enough to understand why this is such a profound thing that, that Eric.
- [39:25]
Megan McCain
Oh my gosh, I don't know how I would explain it to a child other than she is a deeply evolved, deeply faithful, God fearing woman. I mean to do that. I just remember when my dad died and again it was of cancer, he was not assassinated and I had to give A public eulogy. I mean, I was very intense, angry, upset, going through a lot of different kinds of emotions. And I just thought, I don't know. I don't know if I could have done that. I'm with Ben. I just, you know, her beloved husband and partner, and they seem like they had this, like, really beautiful love story, was assassinated in this, like, really horrific way in front of the world. And I think, you know, how I would explain it to a child is I would just say she's. She did what Jesus tells us to do and did what Jesus did and what God did. But I think she has become a really, really significant national figure.
- [40:21]
Mark Halperin
And.
- [40:21]
Megan McCain
And I don't even mean politically. I mean spiritually. I mean, she's someone people are referencing, even just, you know, in our world about how we should live our lives and how we should really follow scripture a lot closer. And I just think it's gonna be a moment that I probably will talk to my children about in the future, because I think this is gonna. It's going to be remembered as a deeply important moment in history.
- [40:46]
Mark Halperin
Ben, this is not meant to be a trick question. It's something I'm really pondering as. As I try to play whatever small role I can in bring together. Why can't conservatives think about forgiving Keith Olbermann or. Or Jimmy Kimmel? They're. They're. They're what the grievances against them are, not that they assassinated someone. So if we're all so. So admiring of what Erica did, why can't we say, well, I can forgive Jimmy Kimmel for. For one, you know, stray statement made.
- [41:20]
Ben Ferguson
I think there's a difference in the mindset. And certainly for me, the reason why I am frustrated with Keith Olberman, for example, is you're advocating and asking for someone who's a lunatic to choose another conservative to assassinate and to build on this momentum. I think that has to be called out because that's dangerous, and it's going to cost someone their life if this continues. I think the difference with Jimmy Kimmel is a completely different box I put it in. I think there does need to be accountability when you do say something as horrific as he said and mock the death of someone and claim that the shooter was conservative. And if you're not willing to apologize for it, that's a problem as well. I also said yesterday on tv, I have no problem with him coming back on tv. I think, good luck with your career. I'm not watching, but I don't want people to be canceled for what they say. I'm in favor of free speech. I do not want the FCC and I took a lot of heat last week for saying that. I do not want us to silence or censor people because I know one day it will happen to me when the other side is in power. If we go down this road. I'm in favor of flag burning, for example. I stood up against the president on that one because I want to make sure we have the right to do it. So I. I don't look at as a different. As an issue of, quote, forgiveness. I look at more of an issue of accountability. I don't really care about Overman. I do care about the words and whose life it could cost. And so that's why it needs to be called out.
- [42:49]
Mark Halperin
Under. Understood why you're concerned about both. Although I. I also hear you, what you. How you feel about Kimmel, this alleged killer. He's not apologized. He's not asked for forgiveness.
- [42:59]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [43:00]
Mark Halperin
And again, I'm not. I'm not trying to have a fight with either of you. I just. I'm just trying to understand, trying to say there's so much white hot anger on the right, and I understand it from a human point of view, but why can't. Why can't people show the same grace towards Kimmel that Erica showed towards a killer? Why can't we all just be less angry about it? Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:20]
Ben Ferguson
I'm not angry at Jimmy Kimmel. I am, but just.
- [43:23]
Mark Halperin
Sorry, but, you know, people are.
- [43:24]
Ben Ferguson
You know, I really think it comes back to the issue of safety. I mean, I. Look, the hardest conversation I've ever had with my. My kids was I was putting my son to bed and he looked at me, he's like, dad, is someone gonna kill you? Like, when your 9 year old knows that, like, that's a real thing when you're getting. I had one of the most morbid days of my life the other day. I got fit for a bulletproof vest so I can wear it underneath my suit when I'm doing public events. I added more life insurance by the millions, and I had my son ask me if someone's gonna kill me. That is where the temperature is in the room and the concern for conservatives. So when I do see someone that is advocating for more of this, I think I have a duty and a responsibility to call it out so that others don't join with him. I really am not mad at Overman. I could care less about Keith. I do care about who he may inspire. And I think forgiving the killer is a little bit different from the standpoint that I don't want my heart filled with hate. I don't hate that killer. By the way, I think I learned from what Erica said, which is, you know what? We don't have time to deal with him. Let the justice system deal with that. I'm going to move on past that. I'm going to go out there and be bold with my faith. I think Vice President Vance put it perfectly. He said, I've shared more about my faith in the last two weeks than I have in my entire life. I would add myself to that list. I have talked more on interviews on Fox, on CNN and others about my Christian faith, which in politics sometimes you kind of separate it out a little bit. People know where you're coming from, but you don't really intertwine it. I won't do that anymore because it's time to move on past that.
- [44:55]
Megan McCain
Yeah, Megan too. Mark, I mean, of course, as you know, are very old, close personal friends and I, we have leaned on each other a lot the past few weeks. I don't think you'll mind me sharing that, Ben, 100%. I called him right after the assassination. I was on my way to pick up my daughter at school, crying, asking him to pray with me. He was telling me he was going to get fitted for a bulletproof vest. About a year ago, Ben was on my show, the first incarnation, before it went to Two Way, and we were just outside eating, getting a burrito and some people came up to us and started screaming at us, filming us, yelling about, I think Israel. It's on the bowels of the Internet someplace. Ben and I go out in public sometimes and people don't want us in the restaurants. They, they're very unkind. And I just think we are obviously not at Charlie Kirk's level, nowhere near it. But anyone who is conservative and public about their beliefs, you know what it feels like to be harassed in public, to have people not want to serve you, not want to be around you. You're socially ostracized in so many different ways. I worry about, just like my husband and I at my kids school right now, like we're so controversial, we're so loud. Like, you know what's going to happen to our kids socially. And that's just a different experience than it is for a liberal commentator. I would wager that Nicole Wallace does not have the same experience outside Capitol Hill eating a burrito with her conservative friend that Ben and I do. And I think that's where my anger is coming from is like, I'm to tone it down and like, meet in the middle and have conversations, but the other side has to do it as well. And I feel like I haven't seen a lot of good faith attempts on the other side and in a lot of different ways. Even like, you know, Van Jones was talking about how he got a message from Charlie Kirk after he had. After he'd been assassinated, he had had a message from him that he hadn't read. And then he was asked if he would go on his show. And his answer was, no, I wouldn't platform him. Like, even now your answer is no, I wouldn't platform him. So I just. I think it's okay to be emotional. It's okay to be. To still be struggling through this. Erica is a very evolved woman and a very, you know, her devotion to her faith is very obvious to everyone. And I think we have to give some grace that not all of us are at her level yet. I'm certainly trying. I want to be that kind of Christian, but I am certainly not. Again, not there. And last final thing, I remember after 9 11, when I was 16, talking to my dad about how scared I was and like, what are we gonna do to these people? And he told me, God will have mercy on their souls, but we will not. And for some reason that has always stuck with me that that'll make me feel better. And I'm not saying that's how I feel about anyone on the left or anything like that, but I think sometimes it's okay to be angry in situations like that. And I just want the. Even the, like, mild harassment of conservatives to stop being so socially acceptable. And I hope you don't mind shared our personal experience.
- [47:46]
Ben Ferguson
No, you are 100% right. I mean, I was at my son's flag football game two weeks ago, and a guy walked up and just started cussing me out, dog cussing me, give me the middle finger. I'm holding my child's hand. And I had to look at my son and say, go on to the field, buddy. And I looked at him and I was like, man, I don't know you. I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you enjoy your Saturday. You try to de escalate that. But you. We're seeing more of that in the grocery store. I've seen it on flights. I had a lady that wouldn't fly the other day three or four months ago, and she started screaming, get this, she called me a terrorist on a plane. And I'm like, that makes everyone around you like, who is this guy? Like, that is not a situation you want to be in. And there's too much of that. And I go back to the leadership of the Democratic Party. You couldn't get a unanimous vote in Congress to say that what happened to Charlie Kirk was wrong. You got a unanimous vote with Republicans about someone that was killed in Minnesota weeks before. I don't know how we are this divided where the left is this angry at the right, where they're saying, yeah, one of yours got killed. We're going to have fun with this, and, no, we're not going to condemn it.
- [48:51]
Megan McCain
Also, Maxine Waters told her constituents to go up to Republicans if they're in public and harass them and make them feel uncomfortable. And then it happened to Sarah Huckabee Sanders at a restaurant here in D.C. i remember Ivanka Trump being kicked out of a spin cycle class here in D.C. it's like, I am happy to meet in the middle. I'm happy to tone it down, but it would be great if there was anybody on the left who had the same kind of enthusiasm and fervor that Erica Kirk has.
- [49:20]
Mark Halperin
What troubles me is they'll pay lip service to it. They'll say violence is wrong, you know, in all cases. But they simply will not call for the. Stop the harassment of conservatives. And I don't. I just. I guess just to close the segment, why do you think that is? Do you think they don't know about it, or they don't believe it's happening, or they don't want to get crosswise with the base? Why wouldn't Democratic leaders say, you know, if they heard your story, Ben, just now, about being at the game with your son, why wouldn't they condemn that?
- [49:51]
Ben Ferguson
I think, number one, I don't think they have a problem with it as a party. I really don't. I think this has been ratcheting up since 2016. I saw it change in 2016. I was at CNN then as a commentator. I could not do an appearance without just vile at Twitter coming after me and just daily death threats. I hope someone puts a bullet in you. I hope someone kills you. I hope you die a miserable death. I mean, it was to the point where you were numb by it. And that started in 16, I think, with the hatred of Donald Trump. And the pendulum switched where it was like this. Acceptable. You look at the data, too now, these youngest generation in this country, 42% believe that political violence is necessary or acceptable behavior. After Charlie Kirk's assassination. That poll was taken not before, after. And so I think we are at a point now where there are conservatives that are just saying, hey, can we just agree now that this is wrong? And there's a Democratic Party saying, we don't agree that it's wrong. We are advocating for it. I don't know how they come back from that, but I do believe there's a star to be made in the Democratic Party that would just stand up and say, this is wrong and we need to condemn it. And the people within our party, we are going to police conservatives, do a better job of policing our own. We will ruin someone's career in the Republican movement if they were out there advocating for the death of Democrats. Like, I've seen how fast they get kicked out of the Tea Party when they were saying things about Barack Obama and I condemned it and called them out on my show, but by name. And those people were excommunicated. Find me the last Democrat that was excommunicated by the Democratic Party for what they're saying. The alarm. OMAR's get more TV time. They get prime time on MSNBC and on CNN. They are on the Sunday morning talk shows the same day as Charlie Kirk's funeral saying that he is a terrible person. I don't know how they come back from this, but I know what I can do is I can honor his death. I can fight for what he believed in. I can try to have a better conversation. But I will say this. I feel like we are on a road right now where every conservative does this, is wondering who's next. The hugs that were given at the funeral were different. It was like, be safe. I can't tell you how many people told me to be safe. And I told them to be safe. I don't want to live in that world forever.
- [52:08]
Mark Halperin
Amen to that. All right. Or take a quick break. Stay with us. Up next, more with Megan and Ben. That's next up. So now let me tell you a story. It's about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on a road trip and he came across a dog. It was a Doberman who was severely underweight and clearly in a lot of trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and he gave him a name. He called him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which gave Leo an inspiration. He started something called Delta Rescue. The largest no kill care for life animal sanctuary in the world. Delta rescues saved thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness. They always provide their animals with shelter, love, safety and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love for animals, that's Leo's mission and it's Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions to operate from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be part of your own legacy, speak with your estate planner. Because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits too. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out now the Estate Planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor we call a dog man's best friend for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please right now visit deltarescue.org to learn more. Again, go for more information to deltarescue.org.
- [53:37]
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- [54:54]
Mark Halperin
All right, we're back with Meghan McCain and Ben Ferguson, two extraordinary communicators and parents and lovely people who've gone through a very tough period of the last fortnight along with so many people around the country in dealing with the grief. So let's switch to something a little bit more maybe upbeat, which is helping Kamala Harris sell books. The start of the book tour basically to me has been defined in her first two interviews by pulling her punches, writing stuff in the book that's gotten attention pre publication and then when asked to repeat it, basically backing off. So let's help her. Megan, you know how to sell books what would you tell Commerce, having seen the early interviews, and say, well, it's okay, right? If I back off, I don't repeat the stories or I try to take the edge off them. What would you say to her?
- [55:41]
Megan McCain
Well, first of all, I don't know how to sell books. I've had some good bombs. I hate selling books. You know how to sell books. And I think, Ben, you know how to sell books, too. I am not the expert to go to, but I will say I watched this clip of her with Rachel Maddow yesterday, where Rachel Maddow, who's obviously, like, arguably the most famous lesbian in the world, other than, I think, Ellen DeGeneres or American, and she's confronting her about the fact that Kamala Harris said that she couldn't choose Mayor Pete because he's gay and America couldn't accept it. And Rachel Maddow was clearly upset and angry, justifiably, as I can understand from her perspective why that would be so insulting. And Kamala's like, that's not what I said. That's. That's like, she's totally hedging, and she's very uncomfortable. And I just don't understand who her editors were, why she put any of this in writing if she's not going to stand by it when she's on her book tour. So I. I just. I don't know. She's. She's. This is one of the weirdest, I think, most destructive book tours for a politician I've ever seen. I think any hope of her holding any office is completely off the table, let alone president.
- [56:47]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [56:48]
Mark Halperin
Ben has to roll out. Rolling so far from your.
- [56:51]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, I laugh. It's like she said what she actually believed in the book, and then people around her started to read it. Her colleagues and her advocates and the people that said you have to vote for her, and they became angry. She's like, okay, my bad. Never mind. I'll abandon all of it. Like, the book is actually Kamala Harris. It's the reason why. I also believe that she can't keep a good staff. It's the reason why she had to drop out when she was running for president the first time at, what, 2%? It's the reason why the American people rejected her because I don't think they feel a. That she's authentic. I also think a lot of people feel like she's pretty angry and vindictive politically, and her own staff did not love her. There were more leaks coming out of her staff early on in her and the Vice president, she presidency than I've ever seen before of any president or vice president of it. Really Just saying, like, I can't handle this. Like she's off the, off the rails and the way that she treats us and now she's like trying to be like, well, I didn't really. I'm like, you put it in writing. Your face is on the COVID I understand if you write a book 10 years ago and your views change. Like, and my first book I wrote when I was 20 years old. I am sure if I read it now, there are things in there that I would be like, I've evolved from that. I disagree with that now. I've changed. I'm a little older. This is like four minutes ago and like four minutes ago. And you're like, well, hold on a second. I'm like, dude, it's like it's literally premium priced right now at the bookstore. It's not even on discount because it's two months old and you won't even stand behind it. And this is why she lost. And I think it's a cautionary tale to anybody in politics on either side of the aisle. You better know what you believe and why you believe it. And most importantly, if you're going to say it, you better be able to back it up publicly and not be bashful about it. I think that also goes back to what we're talking about with Charlie Kirk earlier. Charlie Kirk knew what he believed, why he believed it and never backed down. I have no idea what Kama believes. Clearly it's whatever the pollster tells her to. But she was probably upset when she wrote the book and being honest and now she's like, oh, wait, never mind, I made somebody upset in my party.
- [58:45]
Mark Halperin
And let's be clear. Go ahead, Go ahead, Megan, go ahead.
- [58:48]
Megan McCain
I can't believe how rude she is to President Biden as well because would not be in any of these positions. She certainly wouldn't have been chosen as vice president, let alone been a nominee for president. I do not believe there's any scenario on any planet where she could be nominee for president on her own without that specific scenario. I just believe how disrespectful she is. Like I that has been so strange to me and you know, as Marcus, you know better than anyone, there was certainly a lot of conflict between my dad and Sarah Palin. She has never ever said anything negative about him in the 20 something years since he ran for president. And I think it says a lot about how classy she is and how not classy. Vice President Harris is. And I just, I've been shocked by that. And as you know, the Bidens are very vengeful, and I just think it's a matter of time before they come out swinging at her.
- [59:35]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, you guys raised a ton of. A ton of key stuff. First of all, just you said what you said about Governor Palin. Your dad was the same way. Your dad would not say bad things about. About Sarah Palin, even though plenty of people around him did. And I'd say even some people in the press who he was close to kind of goaded him to, and he would not. And what she has done in this book, actually, the irony to me is what she wrote in the book about a lot of these issues is absolutely true. It matches up with my reporting. And it's stuff that other people wouldn't say, particularly, you know, talking about a cult around Joe Biden and the first lady. But again, she's not out there backing it up. So I don't know the point of writing it in the book. The other thing is, and this is as the minute I saw the title, I said this 107 days. And her whole thing is I didn't have time to run a good campaign and she did almost win. We shouldn't overstate the extent to which, you know, this was a competitive race. But. Or understate it.
- [60:32]
Ben Ferguson
But.
- [60:33]
Mark Halperin
But if you don't think you can win in 107 days, don't run. There were plenty of people who would have stepped up. But. But this, this, this blaming everybody else and saying I couldn't pick the guy I wanted. I just, I don't get how no one in her life said a whiny book claiming you couldn't win. And it's. And it's also horrible now. But it's not your fault is forget whether she wants to run or not. Megan. Don't you think her place in history now will be defined by this as much as anything else?
- [61:03]
Megan McCain
Whining, never complain, never explain. Nobody feels bad for you right now. You had opportunity after opportunity after opportunity that was handed to you. When I do that, she had the merit to get there when as in any other again scenario, except these specific ones, she make it to Iowa when she ran for president. I have been on panels interviewing her. She's deeply unimpressive in person. She's anxious. Her body language is anxious. How you can get to that level and still be this bad at this. She needs to do something else because it's hurting the Democrat brand. I Mean, it's fun for us to talk about because it's just ridiculous. But I actually think women like, I, like, I just think everything about this is bad. And I think no one feels bad for you. Like, no one feels bad for you when you don't become president. Trust me, I know. And you just have to be like, you know what? I was one of like a handful of Americans who could have possibly become president. How incredible is that? How incredible is it my life? And I just don't understand why she can't have any perspective on the world and perspective on things. And she's just deeply self involved and seems quite frankly, a little on, I don't know, not unstable. That's not the right word. But she just seems like she has no understanding of the world around her in any way.
- [62:19]
Ben Ferguson
Right. I have a mentality and Megan and I, this is why we are such good friends. Loyalty matters. And ride or die is what we call it matters. I've had multiple times where people try to get me to criticize what Meghan had said, especially when her dad was dying and Donald Trump and all of that. And I'm like, guys, she's one of my best friends. I'm not going there. I'm not doing it. And there's. If we were at the Kennedy School of Government right now, what I would say, if you're, if you're, you know, downloading this is. Hey, the last two vice presidents who decided to go and attack their running mate, the president. It didn't work out. Like, where's Mike Pence right now? Nowhere to be found. His legacy will be that he trashed his guy that got him there to the White House, got him to be the vice president because he was not loyal. Look, you're together, you're either on a team or you're not. And great teammates stay on the team even when things get bad and when you abandon it and you trash somebody that gave you the biggest opportunity your life. Because Mike Pence would not have been vice president without Donald Trump. And Kamala Harris would not be where she is today without Joe Biden. And you go out there and you act like you're somehow bigger, smarter, better, you end up just being a forgotten person. I would say the same thing, by the way, about Mitt Romney. When you trash the Republican Party that gave you the opportunity to become president. And now look at him. He's ostracized by Republicans because of how unloyal he was to the people that got him there. So if you're government Watching this. If you're in college doing politics, like sometimes when you get on a train, you gotta be on the train and stay with it and be loyal. Even when there are ups and downs and not jump ship and then point the finger going they're the bad guys. I'm brilliant.
- [63:57]
Mark Halperin
It yeah. So there's two related things that are moving targets in Biden world and I think we all agree we're going to hear from Biden world in response to this book. So far they're trying to stay out of it, but I don't think that'll sustain. One is we reports last week that Joe Biden's second chief of staff was pretty honest when he testified before the House committee about how there was an attempted cover up. I say attempted because it didn't work because we all saw his mental decline. Jeff Zients said basically there were people around there who did try to maneuver to minimize the decline and that he did see decline. But then the other thing is, is Harris says in the book, and this is something that got early attention, it hasn't gotten attention so far this week, that she was poorly treated by Team Biden, that they didn't defend her, they didn't try to support her when she was attacked. The opposite is true. Even though she had, even though she'd been critical of Joe Biden during the campaign in 20002020 and even though there were people who didn't want her picked for that reason. I have never seen such level of support for a vice president because they felt obligated to do it. They wanted to make sure she was ready to be president and they didn't want her to be embarrassed. And they spent an enormous amount of time bucking her up. Contrary to what she says in the book, which is the opposite. And part of the motivation also was Joe Biden was as poorly treated as any vice president in our lifetime by the Obama folks who didn't, didn't respect him. And he said that's not going to happen on my watch. So all that is my wind up to the question, which is what's the lesson here for what's happening with this president and this vice president who I think have a uniquely supportive relationship. I've never seen teammates like this. Am I overstating it or are they doing it the right way in terms of how Team Trump is, is treating JD and how JD Is behaving? Talk about how they're doing it. That's, that's different than what we've seen. Clinton, Gore, even Bush, Cheney, who, who had their conflicts.
- [65:53]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, I, look, I think, I think there's a genuine respect and, and, and mentorship of JD Vance under Donald Trump. I do think it's working well. You can see them when they're together. They enjoy each other's company. You can see when they walk in a room and just watching the B roll, they actually smile at each other like, hey, buddy, like they're friends. That is what you need in a presidency and a vice presidency, I think, to work well. Because I also think when things get tough, if you feel like you genuinely have my back and you are a teammate, you just, it just makes you, you're going to war together, you're on the same track together. And look, I think what you're also seeing from Donald Trump this time around, he learned from 16 he's being a lot more loyal to his cabinet members when they have a bad day. And before sometimes he'd kind of let him in 16 through 20 kind of hang out there on their own and then he'd start to criticize. If you notice this team and I, I mean I literally sit next to them at the funeral and I know most of them well. They also act like a team. Like I, I, I'm looking at them and they were sitting there and I walked over and said hello to a lot of them I'm friends with. But like they're converse, they're, they're communicating, they're talking, they're hugging, they're laughing, they're, they're, they're friends. And you don't see that in a lot of cabinets because a lot of people are trying to find their power and get their headlines and, and I'm more important cabinet member than you are. I'm not seeing that this time. It's very unique and I think everyone should do a little study on this. Can it keep up for four years? The closer we get to the presidential, some of that's going to change. Right. Because there's people in the cabinet they're going to run. I think Rubio is a great example of that. Clearly he's looking at it. I think others in the cabinet are going to look at as well and that may happen where you have some of those division, but right now they are a team and JD And Donald Trump are setting the example.
- [67:32]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Megan, Ben is right. I think in the main, although we could cite some, some conflicts. Right. We've seen Scott Bessant, for instance, have some pretty high publicized conflicts and Howard Lutnick has had some rough spots with People, we've seen a few White House departures based on that, but. But that's, that's the exceptions that prove the rule that I think Ben's right about. How would you explain, Megan, as a sociologist and student of Donald Trump? How is Donald Trump presiding over a very high profile cabinet, but one with, as Ben correctly says, far fewer. Much more loyalty, much more camaraderie than you normally see in a government?
- [68:08]
Megan McCain
I think it's very clear he learned the lessons from his first administration, that loyalty goes back and forth and is important. You know, people have been putting a lot of heat on him about people like General Bondi and Cash Patel, and he's not moving in his support of both of them. And I think it's very admirable. And I think in regards to Vice President Vance, I agree with Ben that it's very clear they have a very nice, friendly relationship. I do not know how deep it goes, but it's obvious. I also think Vice President Vance was a fan of Trump's before he was chosen. And I always think back that Vice President Harris called Biden a racist, like, and then sold T shirts about how she was that little girl because of his, like, policy on busing. Like, I didn't even think they liked each other before she was chosen. And then he made the mandate that he had to choose a black woman as his running mate. And I think the problem with Democrats and their choices in these things, they put themselves in these boxes. Instead of who do you want to be in a foxhole with? Who do you have the same, you know, ideological viewpoint on the country and the world as. I mean, you know, Vice President Harris said she wanted to choose Mayor Pete, but she couldn't because he's gay, which, by the way, feels homophobic and not like a great mandate on how you think the American public feels about gay people. And if you look at data, it's actually, like, overwhelmingly positive that the American public does not have a problem with homosexual people serving in office. So I don't even know where that came from. So I think part of the problem with Democrats is they're just in this loophole of identity politics, and it's going to kill them, metaphorically. Like, it's just going to kill their chances at anything. Choose who you think would be best. Roll the dice. Politics is also gambling, which I think people are missing in all of this. You are not entitled to be president. You are not entitled to be vice president. You are not entitled to be treated well. You are rolling the dice. And that is why people get into it, because it's exciting and it's not guaranteed. And I think part of the problem with Vice President Harris is she. She feels like this is all owed to her. It's not. You're entitled to shit just like everybody else, and you have to be able to, like, rise to the level of the greats. And unfortunately, she was not one of the greats. And I'm sorry to swear on your show, but it's just. I really want to be a woman president at some point in my lifetime, and I really feel like she's hurting chances like this. Whiny. Oh, it should have been me. I'm a. You know, it just. It really is, I think, doing damage. And I wish she would get a reality check.
- [70:22]
Mark Halperin
All right, we're going to close with a quick, rapid round. Name the woman most likely to be the first woman president. Ben.
- [70:28]
Ben Ferguson
Ooh, that's a good one. Who is most likely. Can we go with Not Kamala Harris. I actually think that you got to throw in. You're going to laugh at this. Maybe, but like an Erica Kirk if she decides to go into politics. Seeing what has happened recently, I could see a J.D. vance there. I. I think Sarah Huckabee Sanders is someone that's going to be on that short list as well. I think she's very well groomed for this. She's very smart. She's very popular in the South. She's very popular in her state as a governor. I think she could be. If I was looking at a short list, I would have to look at her and say, she has the pedigree. She also understands the White House. She also understands communications. She understands all of it. She brings a lot to the table. So if I was somebody and I'm getting the nomination, there's no way. She's really not on my short list from an experience standpoint. And she also understands how to play the supporting role. She saw it with her dad for a long time.
- [71:24]
Mark Halperin
Megan, who. Who's a woman who you think is the most likely first woman president?
- [71:29]
Megan McCain
Director Gabbard. No, Director Gabbard.
- [71:32]
Mark Halperin
All right, who's the.
- [71:35]
Megan McCain
She's a really.
- [71:36]
Mark Halperin
If you were. If you were going to Vegas and putting down 100 grand on one Democrat to someday be president. To someday be president. Who would you put the money on? Megan.
- [71:46]
Megan McCain
Oh, my gosh. There's also bad. I'm so sorry. I really think their bench is just really very weak. Oh, my gosh.
- [71:55]
Mark Halperin
Someday.
- [71:56]
Ben Ferguson
I would pick none of the above. I would pick. If I'm in Vegas right now and you had all the Democrats. I'm not kidding. And it was none of the above. That too. I would pick I don't think anybody that we're talking about right now or the Democrats see as their bench any of them win. No, I think none of them will. I think it's none. I mean if you literally said here are the top 10 Democrats on the list, Mark, I think this is how much disarray there is. I think it's none of the above. I don't think any of us know who it's going to be. It's not one of the ones on their list right now.
- [72:23]
Megan McCain
Just someone who to running for president. I think it's a they're very joyless in and there's no humor. I always say like that's the biggest problem with people in on the left when they're running for office. And I think whoever can bring that back and understand that it's also meant to be fun, which Trump clearly understands will happen. But I agree with Ben and I'm really not saying that because we're partisan. I'm saying that because I'm so unimpressed with everyone and I think people trying to shove Gavin Newsom down my throat like I'm not him. Everything he's done. Talk to Spencer about what he's done to California. And look, I like a healthy democracy, I like two healthy parties and I bring no joy in the fact that I do think the Democrats are just incomplete. Desiree.
- [73:06]
Mark Halperin
All right, these two, follow them on social media, listen to every word they utter on their own programs and elsewhere. You will be wiser for it. We're very grateful to Megan McCain, Ben Ferguson, thank you both for being here. Have a great day and come back regularly, please.
- [73:21]
Megan McCain
Thank you, Mark. Great.
- [73:23]
Mark Halperin
All right, that is it for today's episode. We'll be back on Thursday with a brand new episode of the program. Until then, tell me what you you think of today's program. You can email me. Send me an email@nextupalperentgmail.com always find the program on X Instagram and TikTok. It's handle Nextup Halperin. And of course if you want to see the program and not just listen to us, you can see us on YouTube. YouTube channel is at Next up Halperin. Download us whether you like to listen to your podcast, subscribe, whatever it is you do. We're building our audience for you, you Nexters and we'd love for you to be part of us wherever you like to listen and watch. Stay with us. We'll see you Thursday. So you always know what's happening next time.