← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
What Happens When Trump is Furious With You, and Rebrand Fails by Karine Jean-Pierre & Meghan Markle
01:06:43
Mark Halperin kicks off the show with the latest news about Trump’s current relationship with Elon Musk, reveals what it is like to have Trump both love you and hate you at the same time, and describes what it is like to get a phone call from a furious Donald Trump. Meghan McCain joins Mark to discuss failing rebrand attempts by Meghan Markle and Biden’s controversial press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre. Plus, Meghan says the media will finally drop the softball interviews during the former press secretary’s upcoming book tour and will make Jake Tapper’s brutal media blitz seem like “Disneyland,” by comparison. Then, Silicon Valley’s congressman, Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA), explains why Democrats lost the tech hub to the GOP, what the left can do to win it back, and why he thinks the Democrat 2028 nominee should try to be more like Trump.
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- [00:00]
Mark Halperin
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- [01:05]
Meghan McCain
Welcome. I am so very happy to have you here. I am Mark Halperin editor in chief of two Way and the host of this program. Next up. Today's episode is about understanding. First, I'm going to talk to you about what I understand about Donald Trump. Some insight I think I have into him. Then we're going to try to understand some of the things that my friend and two way colleague Meghan McCain and I grapple with every day about Taylor Swift, Meghan Markle, immigration, bunch of other stuff, and then finally, understanding Ro Khanna. One of the privileges I've had throughout my career is to meet a bunch of folks before they announced they're running for president or run or become president. And I think part of my obligation is to try to make you able to understand what they're about. Ro Khanna is a congressman from California. He's on TV all the time now, testing the waters. And he's a, he's a willing guest and we're grateful that he'll join us here. But as I watch the interviews, they're generally short or focused in a way that I don't think reveal who he truly is. So today my goal is to allow you to understand a guy who may or may not run for president in 2028, may or not win if he runs. But who I think you'll find is someone who, if you understand him better, you can see why he thinks he could be president, should be president, and what he'd be like as a candidate and maybe in the Oval Office. So that's what we're up to. A little update from last episode. I asked for suggestions of what to call the nextup Community. Good news. Lots of you are interested in helping me figure out what to call this community. The bad news is didn't love a lot of the submissions. I got to be honest, they're not great. No, it will not be the next up nices. That's not going to happen. So keep them coming. When we find the winner, we'll know it. Eager to either eager to allow us to have something like Red Sox Nation or whatever to get everybody excited about being part of this. So as you know, the program's on every Tuesday and Thursday, drops on YouTube and on podcast platforms. And if you haven't yet, please, like subscribe, do whatever you can to be part of the community and to never miss an episode. All right. Donald Trump more written about than anybody in the world probably. And you can watch a lot of stuff about him on social media, on television, on YouTube and of course in newspapers. And I think a lot of the time, close to all the time, you're not really getting a sense of what he's like. I don't know him all that well. I've been talking to him off and on since 2011. And I know a lot of people who know him and speak to him regularly. And they all have a different sense of what he's like in so many ways from what you read about in here, see in here in the media and the these new Gingrich and I got into this a little bit about his intelligence. But this topic is front and center in my mind because of all the stuff about Trump and Elon Musk much in the news, because Elon Musk is now on the record on Twitter in particular opposing Donald Trump's reconciliation bill, his big tax and spending bill that is the centerpiece of his domestic agenda. And people are saying to me, well, Trump must hate Musk. He must be privately seething. And I think what this made me think of is something that again, I think I can share with you that will be useful to understand Donald Trump because in my view, what the must thing illustrates, and I'll give you a couple other examples besides Musk is Donald Trump attitude towards people is if not unique, it's certainly unusual. When he thinks about most people think about somebody, it's binary. Like that person don't like that person. And if you like that person, you like them. And and you focus on the reasons you like them. And if you don't like that person, negative, you focus on on them. Donald Trump's a little bit different. Nothing is ever final with Donald Trump. And of course, not that long ago, Elon Musk was a big opponent of Donald Trump. And Trump mocked him on social media the way Musk mocked Trump, and then they became good friends. Donald Trump always assumes that somebody can come around again, could be an enemy on Monday, but then by Wednesday, they're your ally again. He doesn't see things in black and white. He sees a constant flotation of grays. You can always get back in his good graces if you do the right thing, just as you can get on his bad side if you do the wrong thing. Now, what's the right thing for Trump? Going on television and saying nice things about him. That's the basic route to get on his good side. But you can do that one day and then the next day do something he doesn't like. Musk has been on social media going directly at Trump's big domestic priority, but Trump doesn't really care. First of all, the attacks, at least so far, have not been personal. That matters to Trump. He was just a dispute about policy. And Trump, as Speaker Gingrich and I talked about, he knows how quickly things move and he knows how other people are motivated. It's commonly said now around Donald Trump that the reason Musk is opposing the bill is he felt slighted by AI policy, by EV policy, electric vehicle policy, and he felt slighted by the fact that his pal and associate was up to be the head of NASA. And then right before Musk left the White House, he. He was. His nomination was withdrawn. Trump can like Musk intensely and also feel very negatively about him at the same time. He has that capacity, and he has it because, again, on one day he could be fine with Musk and next day out of sorts and then bounce right back. Most people are not as, let's say, flexible as Donald Trump is. And as I said, if you read about him, I've never seen this point made in all the coverage, including this week, about Musk. I'd say the same thing with Putin, right? People say, well, Trump's constantly saying nice things about Putin, so he must have some secret. Putin must be blackmailing him, or he has some secret financial arrangement. It's just not the way Trump thinks about it. He can say nice things about Putin and at the same time think of him as a murderous dictator. He can say, well, today I'm going to try to make a deal with Putin and tomorrow I'm going to attack Putin or bomb Putin or help Ukraine. Trump is able to look at one person and see multitudes, and that's reflected in how he speaks about them publicly. It's reflected on how he thinks about them privately. On any given day, he can be positive about one person and then the next day negative about him. And so all this description of what's going on between Trump and Musk now tries to put it in a black and white box. Well, he used to like Musk a lot, but now he doesn't. It's just not the way Trump works. He may not like it momentarily, but he could say something nice about him and positive about him in one breath and then literally in the next breath express his rage. And that goes to nearly everyone in Trump's orbit. It could happen with the Cabinet secretary, it could happen with a White House staffer, it could happen with a member of Congress. He's just not binary in how he sees people. And I, I've seen this myself in, in my dealings with Trump. And again, I don't know him all that well. And most of what I'm saying about him now comes from having great conversations with people who do know him well. But when I think about my relationship with Trump, it started out very positive. And it really started because I did something that I said earlier is the best way for get Donald Trump to like you, although that wasn't my goal. I went on television, I said something nice about him, and he called me up and invited me to Trump Tower. And we began to have conversations this, back in 2011, well, before anybody, almost anybody in the media, took him seriously as a presidential candidate. And, and I did. And, and because I took him seriously, he began to be forced to focused on what I thought about how he was doing. And so from 2011 to 2015, when he got into the presidential race, I, I would hear from him with some regularity, I would hear from his people with some regularity about his interest in what I thought, what I think of this, this speech or this TV appearance or whatever it was. And then in 2014, Trump's interest in my thoughts and my perspective on his possible presidential run went public when a guy named McKay Coppins wrote a piece for Buzzfeed about spending a couple days with Trump. And Trump didn't much like the piece, he attacked the reporter for it. But there was one paragraph in the piece. Again, this is in Buzzfeed in 2014, where McKay Coppins is in a van with Trump or vehicle. I forget it was a van. After he leave, he left giving a big political speech. And, and here's what it says. This is McKay Coppins quoting Trump. Did Mark Halperin see it? Trump demands, referring to the co author of the 2012 campaign book, Double down, in which he plays a starring role. Someone asked Halperin, did he see the speech, Tell him it was the biggest crowd they ever had. Tell him to watch. Okay, so that reflects a positive view of my place in the world and my judgment, et cetera. Again, not my intention, not my role in life to validate him, but it shows very positive. Not very long after that. Okay, that's a. That's Trump's positive view of me. Not very long after that, he was mad at me for something. I honestly don't remember what it was. And when Trump gets mad at a reporter in particular, that's what I have the most experience with. I think sometimes it's genuine anger. I think most of the time it's genuine. But at least a piece of it appears to me to be a little bit performative, a little bit attempt to intimidate. And. And so I did or said something. I don't remember what it was. And Trump didn't like it. And so I was. I was in a uber going up 6 Avenue in Manhattan, and my phone rang and it was Trump. And I picked it up and he was furious. Again, I wish. I wish I knew what it was, but I don't remember why. And so I. I didn't have it on speakerphone, but it was so loud because he was yelling at me that I held the phone down kind of, you know, in front of my face to look, listen to what he was saying, and it was so loud and ferocious that the Uber driver could hear it. And he was so unsettled. I could just tell from he turned his head because we stopped for a moment and then he started going again. He was so unsettled that he pulled the car over to the side of 6th Avenue because he couldn't drive. Listening to the vitriol and anger coming out of Donald Trump's mouth during the call. And so again, in one instance, Trump very favorable towards me, very interested in my point of view, very respectful, I would say professionally. And then again, not too much later, white hot fuhrer at me not calling and having a disagreement. That bookend of two things with me is, I think, instructive for me as I think about how can Trump say nice things about Putin and also very negative things about Putin? How can he be great friends and super close to Elon Musk and now be at this important war with Musk over the reconciliation bill? Again, it's because with Trump, no relationship is static. Nothing is final. Everything is transactional. And he always is thinking, you know, what's going to happen next? How's this person potentially going to come back into my life? Some would say in looking at that aspect of Trump's personality, it's a character flaw, it's untethered to principle. It's day trading, it's so situational. But others would say it's a very admirable trait and a very good one, particularly in someone who's trying to get complicated and difficult things accomplished because he can find allies again, he's not writing people off and people say he's vindictive. And if you look at some of the things he's doing right, related to Joe Biden, you could say, yes, he, he, he, he felt he was wronged and aggrieved, and now he's going to get his revenge. And certainly you could point out 150 things he's done as president that reflect that. But you also have to say, if you look at, look at the examples I've given you, he's incredibly forgiving. He's, he's, he's, he's not caught up in the past. If the future and an alliance in the future is to his benefit or will help him achieve a goal, and that again, you see that now. If, if Musk continues to attack the reconciliation bill, and if it does get personal, I could see Trump being super negative. But if suddenly Musk can be an ally on something else, whatever, you could think of a million hypotheticals he'll welcome right, right back in. It's unsettling for people when they first enter Trump's life. And for my Uber driver, it was very unsettling. Was a little unsettling for me, but even by then, I knew what most people who are in Trump's life on a sustained basis, the senior White House staff, the cabinet members who have been around him for some period of time, you want to stay on his good side. Of course, he's the boss and president, United States. But if you find yourself on his bad side momentarily, Pete Hagseth, a good example, you can get back on his good side again. Best way to start getting back on his good side is go on TV and speak favorably of them. But if you find yourself in a situation with Donald Trump where your alliance will be helpful to him, there's nothing permanent right back. You're right back in there. And it's incredibly liberating if you're dealing with Donald Trump when you realize that he's yelled at me a few other times and by the time that happened, because really, that cell Phone one was the first time. By the time that happened, I got the joke. Like, he, he's, if, if he decides it's in his interest to, to, you know, invite me to fly on his plane, he'll do it, even though he might have yelled at me the day before. It's not unique, right? There are mercurial people in the world. But this goes back to what I talked to Newt Gingrich about Trump. Trump's genius in, in trying to get his way is he's constantly, without regard to past slights or conflict. He's constantly saying, what can that person do for me? And sometimes it's personal, what he can do for Trump personally, but sometimes it's, what can he do for America? What can he do for some presidential project? And the smart people, whether they're cabinet members or members of Congress or world leaders, they're constantly trying to figure out, okay, I understand what Trump's doing. He's thinking in a very sophisticated way, how am I going to get. How am I going to get this person to work in concert with me as my ally? And if you want to do that with Trump, you got to think the same thing. Okay? Besides going on TV and saying nice things about him, what can I do to get back in league with Donald Trump? I say, again, I've read lots of stories about Donald Trump, heard lots of chatter about him on television and YouTube and elsewhere. I don't, I don't really hear this point being made. And it's critical to understanding not just what's going on now with him and Putin and, and him and Musk, but it's critical of understanding his presidency and how he tries to situationally build alliances. There's no permanent alliances. There are no permanent enemies. There's just a constant mirage of changing structures. That's the key to Donald Trump. All right, in a minute, Meghan McCain is going to be here. She's my colleague on two ways. She hosts Citizen McCain. And Meghan and I are going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff, some political, some less so. And then a little bit after that, Ro Khan, a congressman from California, will be here. Incredibly interesting guy who I've come to know a little bit. And he's, he's got a huge brain, a great resume, and enormous aspirations for the Democratic Party and for himself and, and for the country. And I'm looking forward, for those of you who haven't gotten to know him, to, as I said, get to understand Ro Khanna better. And I'll remind you again, this show is really new, so we need more support. Send in your name suggestions for what the listeners and viewers of this program should be called. The Next Uppers, the Nexters. Those are the front runners so far, but I think we can do better. And if you haven't done it already, please like subscribe forward, anything you can do to help spread the word about this program. We'll be back in just a moment with my friend Megan McCain. Stay tuned for what's next up. Let me tell you now a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. Leo was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight and clearly in a lot of trouble. Leo rescued that dog and he gave the Doberman a name. Called him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the entire world. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness. And they've done something so important they provide these animals with all they need. Shelter, love, safety and a home. This dedication and this everlasting love for animals, that's Leo's mission and it's his legacy. Delta Rescue for its funding relies solely on on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want caring for these animals to be part of your own legacy, speak now with your estate planner because you can get as tax savings and estate planning benefits too. By making a contribution, you can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out right now the estate planning tab. It's on their website. You can learn more there and you can speak with an advisor. We all call dog a man's best friend for a good reason. You can help those who need it most right now. So please visit deltarescue.org today to learn more.
- [19:06]
Mark Halperin
Again, that's deltarescue.org Greg's Car Shopping. And since he lives in Florida, your marketing's probably pushing something a little sporty. Too bad you don't know he's planning a move to Alaska. Turns out marketing without a clear picture of your customer is like driving a convertible in the Arctic.
- [19:25]
Meghan McCain
A bad idea.
- [19:27]
Mark Halperin
Learn how TransUnion's 360 degrees view of customer identity is bringing clarity to marketing chaos through deeper insights, smarter reach and Precise measurement@transunion.com clarity.
- [19:44]
Meghan McCain
All right, next up, what's next up? You ask. I hear you ask Megan McCain, my friend and colleague on the two way platform live. Live video programs where you get to participate. They call them conversations like no other. It's true of all the programs on two way, but it's particularly true of Megan's programs on Citizen McCain Mondays and Wednesdays noon Eastern time, because Megan has a mind and a mouth like no other. Megan, welcome, welcome.
- [20:10]
Ro Khanna
You say that to everybody. Thank you.
- [20:11]
Meghan McCain
No, I've literally said it to no one. Your mind and mouth are unique and, and your show is awesome. And, and, and your connection to both politics and popular culture is singular. And I couldn't be happier to have you here to talk about both.
- [20:25]
Ro Khanna
And I want to thank you for having me. And also, before we get started, you are at the top of all the podcast charts and I've been podcasting for over two years and I'm not in any podcast charts. That's a really big accomplishment. Congratulations. And you should be very proud.
- [20:41]
Meghan McCain
Well, you're very nice. I consider you top of the pops regardless of what some random algorithm says. So. But thank you. So the former White House press secretary Karine Jean Pierre announced this week that she's got a book coming out and that she's leaving the Democratic Party to become an independent. There's so much to say about this. But I'd like to start with this question for you because you know about media and publishing, etc, besides, besides the advance that she got, what do you think's in it for her to do this book?
- [21:15]
Ro Khanna
I think everyone who's attached to Biden and the health cover up is trying to scatter and reinvent themselves as some kind of conservative, friendly, Republican, friendly truth teller. There's a lot of anecdotes in the reporting at Axios this morning about her that I found very interesting. Number one, that she herself had a PR person when she was the press secretary for the White House. If you're in a position of like service in the White House or in, you know, in any position in politics. My sister in law is serving in the Trump White House now. She sure as hell doesn't have a publicist. Like, it's clearly about promoting yourself and your agenda. I also thought it was really interesting that she thought she was going to be a co host of my old stomping ground, the View. Everybody wants to do the View. Simone Sanders had said that at one point, like everybody thinks that it's easy and they want to do it. And let me tell you something, like the only thing that really is like a good thing at the View that will get you a job there is being authentic and knowing who you are. And a woman who worked for President Biden in the highest press position you can, and then a few months later decide she's an independent, is not an authentic person. And I thought she was the worst modern press secretary ever. I said that when she was. Was doing it. I was shocked she got the job. I was shocked she kept the job. I know there was also reporting when she was serving that people were trying to get her to leave so John Kirby could take over. And she basically refused and said, like, I'm not. I'm not leaving Leonardo DiCaprio style, like in the Wolf of Wall Street. So I just find this fascinating and also appalling, and I do not think it's going to work.
- [22:49]
Meghan McCain
All right, a couple things I want to pick up on. First of all, you hear it more than I do, for obvious reasons, but it's hilarious how so many women think, yeah, I can be on the View. Looks easy. Just sit around and chat, explain. Explain to people how ludicrous it is to think that anybody can walk in off the street and be on the View.
- [23:07]
Ro Khanna
I think. I think for a Republican, it's one of the hardest gigs in media, period. And then whatever you have to say about the women hosting now, they're all talented broadcasters, and it takes a lot of prep. It was a time that was particularly hard on my marriage because I never had time for Ben. It was just constant prep, before, after, before, after, and then going over. At least when I was there, they would go over clips with you about what you did right and what you did wrong on a weekly basis. So it's an incredibly arduous job. And also, like, I just. It's. They're also like, who's leaving? Because that. See, they only have five people on that show. Like, who's leaving if she comes in? Not Whoopi, not Joy. Like, it. Just the idea that she would have. She was. She was terrible at her job. Like, maybe Jen Psaki would have had a potential. It did. I don't know. But it's a. The whole thing's weird. The fact that she had a press person the whole time, I just find. I just found that so bizarre.
- [24:00]
Meghan McCain
All right, so we saw some blind quotes, some tweets, some on the record quotes of her former colleagues, expressing not just outrage that she's doing the book and the point of view you and I and others have of how ridiculous it is to go in four months from being the spokesman for a Democrat, spokesperson for a Democratic president, to now saying you're leaving the party, but also people now speaking out and saying how bad she was at her job. And again, I've said she shouldn't have taken the job. They shouldn't have offered her the job. Like, it wasn't. Like, well, there's a good chance she could do it well, but it turns out she couldn't. Like, there was no indication she could do the job well based on her previous work. And it was pretty quickly clear that it wasn't just bad for her, it was bad for the president and bad for the country. So my question to you is, if she really goes forward and publishes this book, presumably she is. How much heat do you think she's going to take from folks who criticize her performance and her decision to make money off of this?
- [24:54]
Ro Khanna
I think it's going to make Jake Tapper's press tour look like Disneyland. I think she's going to get annihilated because it's even dishear, it's even more ridiculous, it's even more absurd. And, you know, she at the time, look, I'm all for women in positions of power. I'm all for diversity. I don't own a problem with these things, but I do have a problem when that is the. That is your standing qualification. And I remember when her first press, press appearance, she was like, I am a black woman. I'm a queer woman, whatever. And like, that's all fine and good, but particularly in that situation, it's irrelevant. Like, what's relevant is how you are representing the White House and how you're speaking to the press. And I think people like her hurt women in positions of power because it looks like you only got there because you're a woman. And like I said at the time, I just remember having so many conversations with people on the left who work in, in positions of power and the DNC being like, how does she still have. She can barely put a sentence together. And I think she's a very sad figure. And she clearly, I don't know her personal life at all, but clearly this is some kind of effort to get money. And I think after this book, she's going to have a hard time, you know, honestly, getting arrested in Gila Bend, Arizona. I think she's going to be like, really on the outs after this.
- [26:07]
Meghan McCain
One more thing about this, which is it appears that the argument she's going to make is that it was an error for people in the White House and Democrats to abandon Joe Biden, that it would have been better for everyone if he'd stayed at the top of the ticket. And then you've got Democrats saying had Joe Biden stayed at the top of the ticket, he would have destroyed the Democratic Party, he would have lost 40 states, etc. Do you think, assuming that's what she says in the book, and it seems like it is, do you think that's a defensible position, that it would have been smarter for the Democrats to keep Joe Biden on the ticket?
- [26:37]
Ro Khanna
No, not after that debate. I mean, and again, like she's, but she has. What else she going to say? She's the person that went on TV that said I can't keep up with Joe Biden. Like he's running circles around me. And part of the problem with her record, it was just so propagandistic. I used to call her Baghdad Bob before all this because everything she said was just, you know, ridiculous propaganda. And I know that's part of that job, but there are people that have done that job again. Jen Psaki, I thought did a great job when she was, I don't like her, but I thought she did a great job and there's ways to do it that, that aren't so patently absurd. So I mean, what do you think? Do you think she's going to have a career after this?
- [27:12]
Meghan McCain
I, I really think she's risking everything for the, in exchange for book advance, not just her relationships with people, but to the extent she wants a public facing position in the world, I, I can't imagine she could write a credible book explaining either she's gonna have to either explain why she defended Joe Biden or it seems like what she's gonna say is, oh, Joe Biden was just fine when, even though the country was onto that before, there's not. There are almost no Democrats who say that now. Yeah, very few. So I think also that she didn't like the way she was treated. Her colleagues were put in a very tough position because they thought she was hurting the presidency through her incompetence and they tried to minimize her role or force her out. And I guess the President didn't want her to go or someone else didn't want her to go, but she's about to pick fights with some really tough knife fighters and, and, and I think they will. The book and the reception of the book and that the incoming that she's going to take I think are going to make it very difficult for her to hang on to whatever reputation, professional reputation she has left.
- [28:12]
Ro Khanna
Had she come to me with this book proposal, I would have been like, burn this and go teach at some place like go find a college that you can teach, whatever at have a tenure or whatever. But I don't know who told her to do this, but it's on a very screwed up note. It's gonna be really fun to talk about because I can just imagine the. I hope she comes on two way with you or here on your show. I would love it. I. But she's gonna. I don't do it. Politics is such a wild industry because it's like sometimes completely void of just like any, like, just common sense on any, even the most, like, cursory level.
- [28:50]
Meghan McCain
So, yeah, I have to say I don't think real people necessarily are hugely into this. But in our world, for some reason, the elements of this, it just hit like a ton of bricks. People. People are so interested in it. And I'm looking forward to the book tour because I want to see exactly how she and her publicist.
- [29:08]
Ro Khanna
All right, one last thing. If she goes on the View, which apparently is her promised land.
- [29:12]
Meghan McCain
Yeah.
- [29:12]
Ro Khanna
That's not going to go the way she thinks it's going to go because those people love Joe Biden and also they don't like hypocrites. So if she thinks that's going to be a safe landing, make sure if she's booked there that you tune in it live.
- [29:24]
Meghan McCain
Yes, I will. I will make it a pay per view episode. All right. I have. I have two Megans in my life. I care quite a bit about you. And my, my one who has a.
- [29:34]
Ro Khanna
Lot more YouTube subscribers.
- [29:36]
Meghan McCain
Me. The other currently Megan. Megan Kelly. But there's another Megan who I've never quite understood the fascination with Megan Markle. But my feeds have been filled with this video that I need you to decode for me. Why are people so consumed with this video of Megan Marle twerking? Let's look at it.
- [30:04]
Greg
When the song. Come on, let me see you get gone.
- [30:07]
Meghan McCain
Yeah. So this is. This is Meghan Markle standing, I guess, in a hospital room looking very pregnant and doing something that's kind of like dancing. There's her husband also something kind of like dancing. I don't know this song. I. I probably could get Shazam out and figure it out, but Megan McCain. Why is it that people are so compelled to hate watch this video?
- [30:35]
Ro Khanna
I think there's a lot of elements to it. First and foremost, know that there's a lot of conspiracy theories about her having a surrogate and not actually giving birth to her kids. I have no reason to believe that, but it's a very Strong argument. And there's. People think she released this to sort of prove, look, I look pregnant, except her stomach looks pretty weird in it. And I've had two babies. I know what a pregnant stomach looks like. Like, it to me, it looks a little weird. I'm not saying it's not actually pregnant in it, but it does look a little strange. That TikTok song is actually a trend that started in 2022 and 2023. She gave birth in 2021. This isn't helping. Conspiracy theories. And it's a. It's a parody of a rap song, and it's supposed to be, like, a dance women do before they give birth to, like, induced labor. But most people who are doing it are, like, barely standing, and she's dropping it low and twerking, which just not to give you too much information about my life, far from what I was doing before I gave birth.
- [31:30]
Meghan McCain
So. So she's not currently pregnant. This is a video ostensibly a few years old, but released for the first time just now.
- [31:40]
Ro Khanna
Go ahead.
- [31:40]
Meghan McCain
I mean, so there's the conspiracy theory that you floated about why she might have released it now. Is there a sensible explanation for why she'd be releasing it now?
- [31:48]
Ro Khanna
Okay, so I have a friend who, like, knows people in those circles in Montecito and told me that his belief is that the reaction to her was that she's, like, basically, like, an elitist. Like, you can't relate to anything. She's, like, you know, out in the garden in white cashmere and $5,000 outfits, that this is, like, relatable. But the problem is, with Meghan and Harry, their whole thing, why they left the Royal Family was that they wanted privacy. And then it's been parodied, you know, everywhere, including on south park, about their worldwide privacy tour. And to me, there's, like, few things far more intimate than a birth room. I mean, I didn't even want to, like, FaceTime people right before I gave birth, because it's. Right. You have a son. You know, it's like. It's not glamorous. So I think there's a personal. It is personal. I mean, and the idea that she's, like, releasing this very private, you know, video after she claims she just wants privacy. I mean, as Green Carter said, they just have made every wrong decision, and they continue to make every wrong decision, and they're very easy to hate. I was a big supporter of hers when she was first engaged to Harry, and now I can barely even watch things with her because I just find her Like, a ridiculous person. Also, like, sort of an example of, like, the worst kind of, like, elitism and delusion that millennials like, particularly like American millennials, have. Do you like her?
- [33:05]
Meghan McCain
I don't. I don't have a strong opinion. What I'm struck by is how many people whose opinions and instincts I trust do not like her. And. And I'll. And I'll challenge you on this. Can you name someone who has spent this much money on PR and ended up in such a bad place? I can't think of anyone. Right. I mean, she's. I know just from my knowledge, she's tried a bunch of PR people. She's run through a bunch of the top PR people in the United States. She's. She's. She's got some talent. She's. She's interesting in some ways. Like, she's not. She's not working with nothing. And yet somehow she and her husband have ended up like two of amongst the most reviled and kind of mocked people in the whole world after spending all this money on pr, it's like, where's. What's the missing piece here?
- [33:54]
Ro Khanna
Let me tell you my Prince Harry story, if you're interested. So I go to this rodeo called the American, which is fabulous, and it's in Fort Worth, Texas, and it's a very famous rodeo. And I went a few years ago, and my friend who had gotten there before me said, prince Harry's here and no one cares, and sent me a picture of him at the rodeo. And he was not in the. In the booth, the same booth the cast of Yellowstone was with Taylor Sheridan. He was not in, like, anything. And it was amazing to me how much Americans just. We're not royalists. We don't care. Like, the. The fact that he went from being like the. The, you know, Prince of England and this huge global figure to someone that, like, people at a rodeo don't really care about, I have always found interesting. And I also think that people don't, you know, as we've talked about many times, like, people are trying to pay for groceries and they're trying to figure out everything. And I think these people have made hundreds of millions of dollars selling secrets about their family. I think Americans think it's tawdry. And also I think they gravely underestimated how popular Queen Elizabeth is and was in this country.
- [34:54]
Meghan McCain
Totally agree with that. Good analysis. If they ask you for. If they ask you for advice, Meghan and Harry, to try to have a better public image and be less hated or, you know, Mocked. What would, what advice could you give them?
- [35:08]
Ro Khanna
They have to start doing things that are for other people instead of themselves. And they really have to like, commit to like a charity, you know, hunger. Like, you never really see them doing things that are actually tangible for other people. I know there's the Invictus Games, obviously, but, you know, that's just one, one event. I think they need to like, really look like they're actually helping people. And unfortunately it just looks like they're in, you know, $20,000 outfits and Cartier watches making, you know, food for Mindy Kaling. And that's not what people respond to. Like, when people ask me for PR advice, I'm like, the one thing, the only thing that has ever worked for me is just like, rip your skin off and show people who you are and they'll love you or they'll hate you, but they'll respect you for doing it. And they don't show their flaws. They don't show like the complications and even be like, you know, hey, maybe I did screw up this relationship with, with my brother and my, my, my sister in law. And you know, I think, I don't know. I love William and Kate, which is so weird because I like, I'm super American, but I really, I think they're like done a really wonderful job and I look forward to him being king and her being queen. So I think they just misunderstimated anything. But I don't know how you fix that. I honestly don't know how you fix their problems at this point. What would you tell them?
- [36:16]
Meghan McCain
I, I normally hate this phrase when people use it, but do the work. They, they just need to do the work. They need to stop hiring different high powered PR people and stop having like, plans to, to solve things. They just need to live a life of purpose and focus and, and, and authenticity. And I think that's their, that's their best chance. But every time they pop up for me, like with this video, they're doing something a little weird and doing something and doing something that suggests how self involved they are. And being self involved just is not like a winning thing or the alternative would be just get off the public stage, go do things that have nothing to do with being in the media.
- [36:55]
Ro Khanna
I also think it just comes off really inauthentic. That's a planned dance. And also, again, like, I've had two babies. You have a child, like, it's so stressful. And when you go in that room, you're just like worried about and apparently she had postnatal preeclampsia, which I had as well. It's very dangerous. It's very intense. You have to go on a magnesium drip. It's not a time that's playful, and it's not that. It's not a time of joy, but I hate people. Like, when I first gave birth, I was like, wow, everybody lied to me about how incredibly awful and intense and hard this is. Like, you know, you just see people in, like, hair and makeup and whatever. And I think twerking and dancing really, like, is just a ridiculous. Again, it's a. It's a performance. It's not real.
- [37:34]
Meghan McCain
Yeah. All right. You mentioned rodeo before. Not my first rodeo. On a couple things that I've learned over time not to say to people. Never assume somebody is American. Never assume that somebody, if they're married, you know, the gender of the person they're married to. And never. And never assume a woman's pregnant. Okay? Just. Just like, never say to a woman, oh, are you pregnant? Because they may not be. And. And. And, you know, it's always better to err on the side of not. But there's somebody. There's somebody. Taylor Swift. I'll. I'll. I'll spoil it. Taylor Swift. I'm as consumed as anybody with two questions. When she getting married and is she having a baby? Those are, like, I wouldn't say daily preoccupations, but high on my list. So lately, when she's been out in public, some people believe she might be pregnant again. If she's not and she's just gotten a little heavier, I'm not being critical. She's really one of the most talented people on the planet. She's a knockout. She's great to look at. I'm not calling her fat.
- [38:31]
Ro Khanna
I'm just saying went and saw her live, like, I did. Expose you.
- [38:36]
Meghan McCain
I am a Swiftie. I'm a huge fan of her work. I love her music. But. But. And. But her success as a business person and her creativity is incredible. She really. If you watch the documentary she made, her songwriting practice, it's all incredible. Like, I'm not saying there's never been anyone like her, but there's not a lot of people ever been like her. And so, again, interested in if she's pregnant. So here's the video. Again, I invite you to speculate either based on the video or your. Your sixth sense about the arc of her life. Is Taylor Swift having a baby? What do you think?
- [39:12]
Ro Khanna
I think people got confused because there's, like, A dark plant behind her. So it kind of looks like her stomach is sticking out a little bit.
- [39:19]
Meghan McCain
Yeah. But there are other photos of her recently, which, you know, you could. You could go either way. Maybe she's just, you know, like me eating more pizza, but. So this is. What's your spidey sense?
- [39:30]
Ro Khanna
This is my spidey sense. Women at 35 or in your 30s in general, two years with a man, it's make or break. You have a baby or you get married, period, or you break up. And she's been with Travis two years now, so I could see her being pregnant. I could, and I'd be very happy for her and. Go ahead. Sorry.
- [39:48]
Meghan McCain
Well, just. Just in. In the modern world in which we live, would you be surprised if she got pregnant without being married?
- [39:55]
Ro Khanna
No. I mean, I don't even.
- [39:56]
Meghan McCain
I.
- [39:58]
Ro Khanna
My mother's heart would have stopped and she would have nerves breakdown if I did that. But I think we're in a modern time and I don't think people care. I think, though, if she is not, like, you know, by the end of the summer, she will not be able to hide if she's pregnant or not. But if she is not, I don't think she and Travis are going to stay together because I do think it's like a make or break. You can't just be 35 and be with a man like 10 years. Unless she is not interested in having kids. And then that's an entirely different thing.
- [40:24]
Meghan McCain
Do you think if she is pregnant, and I'm assuming if she's pregnant, it's his child. Think she is that. I'm saying if. If she is, do you think they'll get married or. Not necessarily.
- [40:33]
Ro Khanna
They'll probably have, like a private wedding at her, like, house or apartment, and there'll be like seven people there and. And it won't be public. I feel bad for her. That poor thing can't do anything without 9,000 think pieces and people going crazy.
- [40:47]
Meghan McCain
And me talking about it.
- [40:50]
Ro Khanna
She just, you know, she's one of the most iconic American performers of all time. I mean, she's like Madonna level Michael. I think she's like our modern Michael Jackson. I mean, she's just a. There's nothing. I don't even. I don't even think she's more. She's bigger than Beyonce, which is maybe a controversial thing to say.
- [41:06]
Meghan McCain
It is a little bit controversial. I try to just rank him 1 in 1A to avoid the controversy. I thought their relationship was a sham early on. I've gone 180. I now think it's real. Where do you stand on that?
- [41:17]
Ro Khanna
I think it's real, but I think that the Kelsey family in general does so much media. It's got to be exhausting for her. Like, they definitely were like, oh, Taylor's date. My. You know, he's dating Taylor now. Let's have 10,000 podcasts. And I do wonder, long term, how that would be for her. I don't know. I. I thought she was gonna be with, like, a brooding artist, but what the hell do. I don't know her at all.
- [41:40]
Meghan McCain
So I'd like to meet her. I haven't met her. Fill in the blanks. I'll fill in the blanks as needed. Tell people about Citizen McCain when it's on, how they can watch it, what your vision of the show is, please.
- [41:50]
Ro Khanna
Thank you. Citizen McCain is on YouTube on Mondays and Wednesdays at noon Eastern. And it's basically just me and the zoom audience talking about anything I find interesting during the day. Sometimes that's, you know, Korean Jean Pierre like, it was yesterday. And sometimes it's just whatever pop culture thing is happening in the Real Housewives or whatever. And it's very fun. YouTube is very hard. It's. I get so much more love on every other social media platform. YouTube I find to be an enigma in so many. I don't understand it. I. It's like I'm in a very, like, complicated relationship with YouTube. I'm hoping it'll get better soon, but I'm grateful for the opportunity. And Two Way is a fun community to be a part of. And, you know, you have people like our friend Bridget Fattesti, who I just think is, like, such a genius, and I love her show and think she's doing such great work. And it's fun to be part of Two Way because Two Way is, like, a cool, cool platform. People keep asking me about it, and it's nice to be part of something that has, like, a cool brand that's growing.
- [42:48]
Meghan McCain
Well, we love. We love you being part of it to the extent we are a cool brand. You are a big part of it, and Bridget, too. We're grateful. Michael Moynihan, more coming, but Ethan Strauss, so grateful to be part of two ways. And again, Mondays and Wednesdays on YouTube. Go search for Citizen McCain. Megan, thank you. Really grateful to you for joining.
- [43:07]
Ro Khanna
Thank you so much, Mark. Have a great day.
- [43:09]
Meghan McCain
All right, next up, the gentleman from California, Ro Khanna, Democratic congressman, you might think you know a lot about him, but my goal is to allow you to know him better, more understanding. Ro Khanna, next up. So tax day may have already passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble is just beginning. If you missed the April 15 deadline or you still owe back taxes, the IRS is ramping up enforcement. Every day you wait, that only makes things worse for you. With over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily and tools like property seizures, bank levies and wage garnishments, the IRS is applying pressure at levels we have not seen in many years. Look, increased in administrative scrutiny means collections are moving fast. But here's the good news. There's still time for Tax Network USA to give you a hand. If you're self employed or you've got a business that you own, even if your books are just a mess, they've got it covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up all those financial messes, the chaos and getting you back on track. Even after the deadline, you can still regain control. Your consultation is completely free. And acting now, it could stop penalties, threatening letters and surprise levies before things escalate. So call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com NextUp. You may have missed that April 15 deadline, but you've not run out of options. Again, let Tax Network USA give you a hand before the IRS makes its next move. Call right now 1-800-958-1000 or go ahead and visit tnusa.com NextUp. Next up, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna from California, incredible life story, a great American story and a really high flying political career. He's not yet 50 and he's already accomplished quite a bit both in and out of government. And here he is. Next up, Rokhanna. Congressman, thank you for joining.
- [45:19]
Greg
Thank you. I thought we were going to go over all my failures on this story.
- [45:24]
Meghan McCain
We'll get to the failures. But I mean, I knew most of your resume but preparing for today, I looked at and there were a few things on here I didn't know. And you're a bit of an overachiever. Let's just be honest.
- [45:36]
Greg
Yeah. Look, I grew up with immigrant parents, Indian American immigrant parents. I tell people when I got 90% on my exams, my dad said where's the other 10%? You know, I realized later on they didn't understand much about connections and how the world works. And you know, you go get a deal or you get in the right position. They simply thought that the way up for their kids was working hard and studying hard and that was, that was the way to economic security.
- [46:13]
Meghan McCain
There'S so much I want to talk to you about. I want to, about politics and policy and, and the Democratic Party. But I told people at the top of the program, my goal is to get people to understand you better. You and I have had a chance to visit a little bit and I think I understand you more than people who've just seen you on a five minute cable news hit. Mike. So that's the project for both of us today, is I want people to understand your head, your heart, your vision for the country. And so I've got, I would say a list of questions is not an interview. Strategy. My strategy here is to work with you to try to get people to understand you. And here's how I want to start. And it plays off your extraordinary career path. You're very smart. I know you don't want to brag on yourself, as we say in Arkansas, but you're very smart. What else do you think accounts for your success as a son of immigrants who wasn't well connected? What else accounts for the extraordinary career arc and benefits the American dream that you've enjoyed?
- [47:08]
Greg
You know, I wouldn't say necessarily I'm very smart. I worked really, really, really hard. I studied really hard. I mean, and there were times in elementary school and junior high where I wasn't doing that great. And then my mom, I still remember on the kitchen table would have these note cards to get me to memorize words because my, my proficiency in reading wasn as good. But I tell you one thing, it's just relentlessness. I lost a couple times before I ever won. I just had this burning, burning passion for public service, for politics. I still believe politics is this noble calling. And there was this desire in me to never quit, to just keep going. And I think that that had to do probably with my upbringing. And people say, like, what difference did it make that on a math exam when you got 90%, your dad pushed you for another 10% and it makes no difference, Trust me, Congress can't do basic math. That skill has not been helpful at all in Congress. But what was helpful is this just relentless desire for persistence. And, you know, it's one thing, I think actually Donald Trump and Joe Biden had in common, just this, this sense of not giving up in any circumstance.
- [48:32]
Meghan McCain
You were born in Pennsylvania, grew up in Pennsylvania. How did you find yourself representing a district in California? Northern California?
- [48:40]
Greg
I went out after law school. There was a professor of mine said, you know, the future is going to be technology and if you want to have an impact on big Societal issues. Just go out there and learn about it. And I, I went there around in my early 20s in debt. They had about 50 to over $100,000 of debt from, from school. No family out there, no connections out there surrounded by these huge technology companies and a bit intimidating. California, for people who don't know it is kind of a machine dominated political state. But you know, most of my formative time and upbringing was in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And when I think about, we're all, I think in many ways products of our childhood. And when I think about what makes me who I am, it's probably two things. One of them is growing up on Amsterdam Avenue in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. We had a street where we were middle class. My on that street, one family had the pool. That person's father was a vice president at some company. Back then it seemed like a huge, huge deal because I never met a CEO or any law firm partner. And then we had people who were an electrician, a nurse, a teacher, an H Vac technician. We all played Little League together, all traded baseball cards, watched all the Rocky movies, played this game, Strat O Matic, which was a big when I was growing up. And I often think about how amazing that experience was for me, how good my teachers were, my neighbors were. And it's really what fills me with sort of hope for the country. The country did so much for me. And then the second experience was on certain summers we'd go to India and I'd go get to meet my grandfather who served, spent four years in jail alongside Gandhi and India's independence movement, protesting for social justice. He passed away when I was nine, but I'd still go and hear stories from my grandmother. And those I think were the formative experiences. If someone wants to know what, what, what really motivated you to get involved in public service.
- [51:09]
Meghan McCain
Was your grandfather famous in India?
- [51:12]
Greg
He, he was, he probably still is. I mean he not famous in like, you know, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, he, But he was, he was, he was one of the people, let's say, who was a signer of the Declaration of Independence. He was one of the founding generation of Indian independents and served in the Parliament, the first parliament in India. And so he's, he's not, not, it's not like someone in India would know him by name, but they would know people who studied Indian history would know him and people would recognize that generation, that generation in India was equivalent to sort of what we would say is the greatest generation here in World War II or even more our founders, you know, One thing, I don't want to digress too much, but David Rubenstein always has this anecdote where he says, look, when we were founded, there were 5 million people in America, 2 million who were enslaved, 3 million people were free of that. Maybe 1 million people could actually vote. And that 1 million people produced Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and George Washington. And he's like, what are we doing now in a country of 360 million? How is, how is that, that we're stuck with the political leadership we have now? But anyway, he was part of his greatest generation of Indians and India had the same sort of downward. I mean, there's not the same type of Indian leadership in India that there was back in his time.
- [52:35]
Meghan McCain
It's a great question which has of course been asked by others. It just how could it be that we had so many extraordinary figures with such a small population? We won't settle that one today. So you've been on the forefront amongst Democrats in elective office with people like Richie Torres and saying, let's do an honest appraisal of what's happening with the Democratic Party and with the country more broadly. And some people get confused because you're, you're a fierce defender of the free market. You've worked in capitalism, you've benefited from it. But if you do run for president, people are going to. One of the first things people are going to say, including some people who try to stop you, is you supported Bernie Sanders for president. So explain why you were a Bernie Sanders supporters for president.
- [53:18]
Greg
Two reasons. One, I felt how exclusive the club of politics is in California. I mean, from an emotional sense, what drew me to Sanders, you got to understand, I mean, I had everyone from the president, all the senators to the Congress, people always endorsing against me, running in the other room. And Bernie came up and he said, you know what, let's shake up the system, this two party system with these insiders calling the shots. That's not democracy. Let's open it up for other people. And I think that many people, they so focus on the economic agenda for Sanders, which we can get into. But at the core of his appeal was that the system, this club of party insiders that are squelching competition is not working. The big money in politics is not working. Let's break it up. That's what drew me on an emotional basis. And the guy who had lost twice for Congress, who's running a third and final time, and I would have probably done something else in my life if I had lost that one I said, you know what? This guy Sanders is talking about breaking up the establishment, but then on a substantive basis, just the incredible inequality in the country. And I saw it firsthand then, and I see it now. I mean, you know, Marg, you've been to my district. It's $14 trillion of wealth. Apple, you know, Google, Tesla, Nvidia, Broadcom. I've got five companies in my district that are over a trillion dollars. And at the same time, you've got people in this country who can't afford child care, can't afford health care. I think about where I grew up, the industries sort of declining. Steel in Western Pennsylvania just hollowed out. I said, how have we allowed a country to do this where we're producing more wealth than ever before and people so many Americans don't have a shot at the American dream and economic security? And that's what drew me to Sanders, that he was talking about that income inequality.
- [55:18]
Meghan McCain
Are there positions he has that are too far to the left for you?
- [55:22]
Greg
Well, I don't call myself a democratic socialist. I call myself a progressive capitalist. I don't believe we should outlaw billionaires. I think we should have an economic growth and economic investment in communities. I was for the Chips and Science act, help write it. He was opposed to that. And in general, my view is that fdr, the way he had economic development, economic growth in places like Warren and Lorraine, was not just the federal government. He also had business leaders, technology leaders, local leaders. And so in that spirit, you know, there are places that of course differ.
- [56:09]
Meghan McCain
Tell the story of how some of Silicon Valley, including some of your district, has turned away from the Democratic Party. There's some prominent leaders who have, but there's some people also who aren't necessarily famous, who are now attracted to the Republican Party, to Donald Trump. What mistakes did your party make to alienate some of those folks, do you think?
- [56:29]
Greg
So much of it is unfortunately generational. I mean, the honest truth is people under 50 in the tech world really turned away from the Democratic Party and some to the Republican Party. And I think it was almost masked because a lot of the big names, the John Doors, Reid Hoffman, are still Democrats. And of course, there are a few big names like David Sachs Elon, who went Republican. But the broader challenge is, why did we lose so many of these younger tech leaders? I'll tell you why we lost them. Why we may get some of them back. One, they didn't like the attacks on free speech. They thought that we made them feel too judged, too much like they were the problem, not free to be able to speak their, their mind to. They. They didn't like what they saw as an administrative attack on technology and entrepreneurs. I believe we need sensible crypto regulation. But some of that went too far. Where people who were in this industry weren't being allowed to have bank accounts, were being demonized. That rubbed them the wrong. There was a concern that we did not support and understand why technology development ultimately can be good for America and good for the world. So I would say those are the reasons we lost them. Now, what makes me think that they're having pause and this, you know, this is not anecdotal, scientific, but for probably every 10 people we lost to Trump, I would argue seven are still in Trump's corner and three are now having doubts. Doesn't mean that the election wouldn't be the same result if it were tomorrow. I mean, Larry still may last. But three are at least having doubts. And they're having doubts on blanket tariffs. They're having doubts on the attacks on universities in the way that he's done it. They're having doubts under the international student pause. I mean, Silicon Valley is a lot of them, including Elon Musk. They're having doubts about just the chaos of the economy that has taken place. And they don't like the cuts on medical research, nsf, but we still haven't won them over this. I would put them in. Okay, they're now a little bit uneasy, but we still have a lot of work to do.
- [58:54]
Meghan McCain
If somebody with your background who is a congressperson wanted to be commander in chief, what do you think the American people expect to hear? To be confident that you could do that part of the job.
- [59:10]
Greg
That you have an understanding of the economic future of this country and what would make America's economy strong in the 21st century and allow for economic success in every community. Economic independence and economic independence for people who haven't had that chance. I think the Democratic Party more broadly needs to say Donald Trump and J.D. vance asked some of the right questions. Factories leaving, but they have 19th century solutions. Here is the real way, in a world of AI and technology, how we're going to create economic security, economic prosperity for every community, every family in this country. And secondly, a sense of national security that we understand what it's going to take for America to, to be safe in the world and to lead in the world and to make sure that we are the preeminent nation, not China. And that, in my view, means having a military that understands what it's going to take with the 21st century warfare attributable drones, the types of AI we're going to need. I've been working, as you know, on the Armed Services Committee for nine years. I am the top Democrat on the Emerging Technology Committee. How are we going to have the most technology sophisticated military of the 21st century? And how are we going to have the kind of alliances in the world that are going to make sure that America leads and that will make us the moral leader of the world? Put me aside. I think those national security and the economy are the two questions the party needs to answer.
- [60:48]
Meghan McCain
I'm setting you aside because I'm not here to press you on your possible candidacy. What are things Donald Trump has in terms of skills that you think Democrats who want to run for president would be smart to emulate?
- [60:59]
Greg
He speaks his mind. No one ever. I've never thought, you know, what is that really what Donald Trump thinks when he says something? He is bold. I mean, you know, Democrats obsess about, well, can we really say we're for Medicare for all or not? And Donald Trump is out there saying, let's conquer Greenland, let's conquer Panama, let's, let's reset the entire economic world order. I disagree with him on resetting it the way he is with blanket terrorists. But it's clear that he has a worldview. He's not afraid to take risk and that he speaks his mind and then he is out there. I mean, he's out there engaging with different people with a point of view omnipresent in terms of his media. So those would be some of the areas. The final point is, you know, make America great. I think that if you heard Donald Trump speak, he says, I'm going to make America wealthy, I'm going to make America powerful, I'm going to make America strong. Now, I think he has all the wrong ideas for doing that. But we as Democrats need to speak about America. What are we going to do to make America exciting and have new dreams and a vision? The kind of America my parents came to when John F. Kennedy was talking about here's how America is going to lead the world and was the place to be. And I think we need to speak about the nation, how our policies are going to help the nation and for the nation to be strong. And Trump's rhetoric is very strong on that, even if his policies are ones that I don't think will achieve that end.
- [62:33]
Meghan McCain
Who's the most impressive member of the Trump Cabinet or White House staff so far to you?
- [62:37]
Greg
Oh, Bassen by a mile. I mean, Bass and knows what he's talking about.
- [62:42]
Meghan McCain
Go ahead, tell me what he's doing that you think is good for the country.
- [62:47]
Greg
He's saving it from the erraticism of having the bond yields go up, from having massive economic instability. Look, the one thing I disagree in certain places on Bassett, but no one can say when you hear Bassett speak, that he doesn't understand the American economy, that he doesn't understand the bond market, that he doesn't understand the impacts on, on terrorists. I mean, I disagree with it, but he understands the challenges, that he doesn't understand the markets. He has an economic fluency and he has the trust of a lot of people in, in the financial world. When I go and talk to people on, on our side, they say, well, you know, Bassett at least is keeping things somewhat stable. Now, there's a lot of people in the administration who overrule him and they've still managed to create chaos. But to me, he is. I'm glad he's there for the sake of the country.
- [63:43]
Meghan McCain
Who of the Democrats who might run for president in 2028, who's doing the most things now that you think are impressive?
- [63:50]
Greg
Well, I'm a big fan of Josh Shapiro. I'm a personal friend of Josh Shapiro's. I thought the way Josh has focused on getting things done in Pennsylvania, in showing that he is a capable leader, it was important. I think the way he spoke about the assassination attempt of Donald Trump was impressive. Of course, he went through a traumatic experience with his family, with the blatant anti Semitism we're seeing around the country. But I think he's an important voice for the party. There are others and probably my friendship colors my positive view of him, but certainly he's in that, in the top.
- [64:40]
Meghan McCain
All right. Lastly, what's something about you or some things, not just one, that you think, even despite my best efforts here and despite your near omnipresence in the media lately, what are things about you that you would like the country to know that you think that people may not know or fully understand or appreciate?
- [64:57]
Greg
They probably don't fully understand the struggle of my career in my 20s and 30s in Silicon Valley. I get there, I have debt. I decide to do this crazy thing which is challenge a 10 term member of Congress who voted for the war in Iraq because I was opposed to the war in Iraq. And I lose badly. And I'm in debt and I have massive credit card debt, I have student loan debt. And, you know, then I go out and I volunteer on different efforts without with making $1,000 a month at the DNC. I remember because I was so opposed to the war in Iraq, I wanted John Kerry to win. I go into further debt. And then I, you know, am 40 years old. I remember, and someone comes to me and he says, you're not married. You got all this debt. You've lost a couple campaigns. You know, maybe it's time for you to try to do something else. And I say, okay, I'm going to give it one more try. I meet an incredible woman after three times of pursuit. You know, she dumped me, then dumped me again, and then it's my third time. She finally agrees. I think just persistence is what won her over. And I say, okay, I'm going to try one more time. And I win. But I think that all of that, you know, shaped me in a sense that my life could have gone either way. And there was some luck that I ended up winning the final time. Honda ended up having an ethics scandal. But it gave me a sense of the knots that many people have because of circumstance and how difficult life can be at times and how important having close friends, family who believe in you are to be able to overcome that. And I think that the unfortunate thing is in many cases when people have some success, omitted from their entire biography, all the ways where it could have gone wrong and did go wrong. And I wish more people would have that because it may give them more confidence. And the other final point, Mark, and you know, I had a lot of doubts. I still have doubts in my life. And, you know, maybe Donald Trump never has doubts in his life. I don't know. But for most people, it's normal to have doubts. And I think that we need more young people in this country going into public service. And if you're listening, it's fine if people are having doubts. And my one advice would be tune it all out and just go with your gut and keep going and you'll probably have an impact.
- [67:32]
Meghan McCain
Congressman Rokhanna, Democrat from California, very grateful to you for making time. And we look forward to continuing the conversation with you here on NextUp as we head towards the future. Thank you.
- [67:43]
Greg
Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me.
- [67:44]
Meghan McCain
All right, that's it for today. Grateful to all of you for being part of NextUp. Make sure you subscribe wherever you you get your podcasts and go and check out the YouTube channel as well. We do regular episodes Tuesdays and Thursdays, but breaking news frequently comes my way. So you need to subscribe if you want to make sure that when we drop some extra episodes on breaking news, you know about them happening. So please, again like and subscribe on all the places where Next up appears. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week to find out what's Next up. Hey everybody, Conan o' Brien here with an ad about my podcast. Conan o' Brien needs a friend. I've had so many fantastic conversations with people I truly admire. People like Michelle Obama, Bruce Springsteen, Maya Rudolph, Tom Hanks. New episodes are out every Monday and we have a really good time. So subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts.