← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
What's Fueling Graham Platner's Success, and Sen. Hagerty on the Shutdown and Trump's Global Strategy
01:19:17
Mark kicks off today’s episode with a reported monologue on the high art and grand drama of political survival perfected by the masters — Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. He breaks down how figures like Graham Platner continue winning endorsements and voter enthusiasm even when controversy hits, revealing the strategies that help politicians withstand scandal and come out stronger. Then Senator Bill Hagerty joins to go inside Trump’s world and what is driving America’s global strategy right now. He explains why Japan is central to U.S. power in the Indo-Pacific, what the trilateral alliance with South Korea could mean for the future, and why the shutdown is exposing more political theater than problem-solving. Hagerty lays out the high stakes for national security and everyday Americans. Plus, former Democratic Senate candidate Steven Olikara shares a forward-looking conversation on bridging the divide in American politics. He explains how new grassroots energy and smarter media ...
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You want the next up experience? You'll get the nextup experience. I'm Mark Halperin. Welcome in newbies, neophytes and veteran nexters. This is our Tuesday program. Glad to have you here. Happy to have a lot of new people and the show grows and the Nexters. Meet the new Nexters and it's all very lovely. I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief of the interactive video platform Two Ways and your host here to bring you my exclusive reporting and analysis and all the top stories. And then of course, great guest joining us today, Bill Haggerty. He's a senator from Tennessee, a Republican, also was ambassador to Japan with President Trump traveling in Asia this week. Great opportunity to talk to someone who knows the region and the country well. And also Steve Olakara, a former Senate candidate Democrat from Wisconsin who has started a number of organizations dedicated to to trying to combat the toxic polarization in this company. A super smart guy. Love having him on now. He's a senior fellow for political reform at USC and the Schwarzenegger Institute, but also does a ton of other stuff. You'll like him if you haven't heard from him. I'm looking forward to both conversations. But first, my new report on why some politicians survive the unsurvivable. That's next up. Don't go away, everybody. I want to tell you about the Vapor Technology Association. It's an organization, it started about a decade ago to protect the rights of Americans who choose alternatives to smoking and the small businesses who have made a living with the technology they use. They support science based policies and the rights of adults to make healthier choices. Did you know that many family owned vape shots and manufacturers across the country are now under attack thanks to what are outdated Biden era regulations that threaten to wipe out an entire American industry? The Vapor Technology association, also known as vta, says businesses are being destroyed and people are losing their jobs. But the VTA says President Trump now has a clear opportunity to change all this and to protect Americans right to make their own choices and to defend small businesses and restore a free and fair marketplace. Head over now to VaporTechnology.org to learn more about this organization and why they are leading the charge to support American innovation. And if while you're there, their mission appeals to you, consider becoming a member again. That's VaporTechnology.org Vapor Technology.org Tell them you heard about all of this here on NEXT up. All right, everybody, now my reported monologue on why some politicians are able to survive situations that would kill politically, meaning politically kill just a regular mortal politician. Look, politics is not about a sport. Politics is to see who's going to be in our government, see who at the end of the campaign will actually try to help people in the real lives of real people. But there's no doubting that a lot of you like me also enjoy the spectacle of it. Politics is high human drama. It's one of the most competitive contests in the country, along with sports and business, people who compete particularly at the presidential level, but also for other offices. They're engaged in a really tough and complicated thing. And I have throughout my career been fascinated by how certain people survive. Stuff that if you taught something at a campaign management school, you would say, nope, that person's done the two greatest survivors, political survivors I've covered. First is the guy who I covered as my very first politician, who I covered full time, Bill Clinton in 1991 and 92. He, of course, survived the allegations related to Jennifer Flowers and other women. Also allegations of draft dodging. Whitewater. The guy was a warrior and a survivor and Republicans admired that. And then, of course, Donald Trump. Not just Access Hollywood, but a million and one other things. And both of them are well aware, not just of their reputations as warrior survivors, but also of the techniques to use. Some of it's intellectual, but a lot of it's primal. And so now in the era of social media, which of course wasn't around in the Clinton days, there's way more attacks. If you're a politician under siege with negative stories. You're attacked literally nonstop on social media. But there's also way more ways to use social media to defend yourself and to rally your supporters. So I've been talking this week, and I'll tell you why in a minute, to a lot of smart Republican and Democratic strategists, and two candidates too, about how it is that people try to follow the Clinton and Trump model, who it works for and who it doesn't. And the reason is because this guy running for Senate in Maine, this guy named Platner, I'm blanking on his first name. Somebody's going to tell me. Graham, Graham Platner.
- [05:39]
C
Right.
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B
He's a guy who came out of nowhere. He's raised a ton of money. He's gotten endorsements from Bernie Sanders and other leading liberals, and they invested in him to be the Democratic nominee to run against Republican Susan Collins. Susan Collins is a Republican representing a state won by Democrats at the presidential level. That is very rare now for both parties. She's the only Republican left in Congress in New England, and she is someone Democrats badly want to beat, but they need the right nominee. So Platner got in the race. He's a blue collar guy, blue collar background as an adult at least, although turns out he went to a fancy prep school and he was way ahead in the polls. And the establishment of the Democratic Party got Governor Mills, a Democrat, been around a long time in Maine politics to enter the race. So there are other candidates running, but it's seen as Platner versus Mills. And mysteriously, the minute Mills got in the race, opposition research started to rain down on Platner. Old Reddit posts where he wrote offensive things in terms of gender and race, some staff resignations for his team of people saying they couldn't work for him any longer, that he wasn't the person they thought. And these Reddit posts were not ancient history. They're just from a few years ago. He was in the military when he went and soon after he got out, he said he was depressed and confused. That's when the Reddit posts are mostly from. He also had a tattoo which turned out to seem to be a Nazi symbol. And then a reports that despite his denials that he knew it was a Nazi symbol, then he did a big show of covering it up with a new tattoo. And he's done a round of interviews that have been less than stellar. And yet, and yet, not only is he still in the race, but some polls have shown him ahead or way ahead. He continues to do really well, and what got me really thinking about this guy's survival, at least so far, is, is an event he did on Monday night in a small town in Maine, like an hour and a half outside of Portland, Maine. 700 people showed up. Lots of media, too. 700 people. Now, 700 people at a rally in New York City actually would be pretty impressive, although Mondami had thousands the other night. But 700 people in Maine, I haven't time to look into it. But that's got, I think, one of the biggest political events in Maine history. 700 people to go to see this guy do like a. A town hall. So Mondami's gone through some stuff too here running in New York City. But I want to focus on Platner and use Platner to examine this question of how do you survive things? Because. Because when the staff starts to quit, when the stories about you are not about what you believe in, but about controversies, typically the money dries up, the support dries up. We don't know what its fundraising is doing right now, but I bet you it's not bad. His endorsers like Bernie Sanders, have stood by him very similar to what's going on in Virginia with that Attorney general, Democratic attorney general candidate whose old texts about wanting to kill his opponent and opponents or not his opponent, but a Republican and the Republican's family came out. He's still in the race, and no one's, you know, no Democrats called for him to get out. But this Platner thing is so interesting because 700 people means something. And you saw that with Donald Trump and Bill Clinton during the roughest parts of their political careers, people who supported them have rallied behind them, and rather than losing support, net net they've gained support. So let's talk about Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, and then let's talk about Platner and what people are telling me are kind of the tricks of the trade, how you survive. And again, this is a great spectacle, but it also determines who's going to represent us, who's going to be in the general election in Maine, who's going to potentially be the person representing Maine. So Clinton, I covered him from the start of his campaign in 1991, and then he gets to 1992, and stuff starts to come out. That's what happens when you have success in politics. Opposition research comes out. Some of it's organic. Reporters are digging, but a lot of it comes from political opponents. And so Clinton was facing these audio tapes of Jennifer Flowers where he talked to her on the phone and she secretly recorded and she gave it to the supermarket tabloids. Then a letter came out that actually my colleagues at ABC News got, where he wrote a letter to the guy who helped him get out of the draft, his local draft official in the Vietnam era. And he talked in there basically about trying to stay out of the war. Clinton masterfully turned this, and this is the start of his time on the national stage where he understood. What do you say? How do you say to voters? Don't give up on me. This is the, for me, always been the classic sound bite in, in February of 92, goes on Nightline with Ted Koppel on ABC and explains his, his war history on Vietnam and then has this classic sound bite. This is S2, please. The people of this state are fundamentally fair. They're hurting. They desperately want this election to be about their tomorrows, their future, their problems, not about my yesterdays. So again, that's, that's from New Hampshire trying to win the New Hampshire primary. He ended up finishing second in the New Hampshire primary to Paul Tsongas, but he dubbed himself the Comeback Kid and went on to win the nomination. And again, that line, they, the, the, the opponents want the election to be about my yesterdays, but he wants to make the election about voters tomorrows. That line that appeals to a lot of people, it's a fighting line. It accuses the opponents of trying to distract the election from the real issues. And again, most people, maybe not in the media, but most voters, they don't care what a politician did yesterday. They're more focused on the future. So great line. And of course, Clinton went on to repeat that kind of line during the Lewinsky scandal. Every, every other thing he was hit with while he was president and he was a survivor. One of the biographies of Bill Clinton is called the Survivor. And that's why, same thing with Trump. And the similarities are going to be manifest. Anybody who understands this is Trump from his first presidential campaign in Iowa in 2016, with one of the most famous lines of all time about political resilience. This is S1, please.
- [12:01]
D
Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and.
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B
I wouldn't lose any voters.
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D
Okay?
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B
It's like, incredible. So Graham Platner is basically. There's no Fifth Avenue in Maine that I know, but he's basically done the, the political equivalent of shooting somebody oppo dump after oppo dump about his past. And, and it doesn't matter. The voters are, the voters are fine with it. It's as Trump said, I Won't lose any voters. Now, maybe Platner's lost some voters over this, but he did draw 700 people to a political event. So then Fast forward to 2024. Trump's running again, and he's, you know, he's been indicted and, and Russiagate and all this stuff. And, and Trump doesn't want this to derail him. So he goes to a line extremely reminiscent of the Clinton line, right? Extremely reminiscent. This is Trump talking about how he doesn't want the election to be about himself. And because they're not really trying to attack him, they're trying to attack his supporters. This is S3, please.
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D
They know that we can defeat them. They know that we will defeat them, but they're not coming after me. They're coming after you.
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B
So that's, that's the, that's the outlines of the playbook, right? The outlines of the playbook are, say they're attacking me because they don't want you to win. If you let, if you let my enemies who are coming after me when you, the voter who supports me, will lose. That's the core of the message. But what I did this week was I asked a bunch of people in politics who've worked on these kind of operations, including with Trump and Clinton, what are the, what are the elements of this kind of messaging? What are the elements of this kind of effort to save yourself. And again, just to, just to show you how, you know, Platner should be dead politically. He should have had to quit, draw from the race, all this negative information about his recent past, the top people from his campaign, leaving the campaign, at least two officials. But he's not. And here's why he's alive. Here's S1. This is the scene in Maine last night, Monday night, this Platner town hall meeting. And you just don't see crowds like this for a normal Senate candidate. Massive room. The press there said 700 people. Here's another shot of the room again. You see how big it is. And the questions were largely, largely about policy. One was about his old post, no questions about that tattoo. And one of the reporters who was there tweeted out about how all. There's this national press there, so this guy is not dead. Now, maybe, maybe he won't win the nomination, maybe other stuff will derail him. But right now, I'd say he's either stable, which after all he's been through, is a great place to be, or maybe even rising as Testament testified to the fact that his endorsers like Sanders have stayed with him, and he's, he's, he's drawn this crowd. Here's one of the questions he got yesterday about acceptance within the Democratic Party. And you'll see this guy is a very skilled, just like Clinton and Trump, very skilled at talking to voters. Take a look. I would love to be out protesting. I would love to be out knocking on doors, but I'll be honest.
- [15:12]
D
Yeah.
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B
A person like me could get killed right now in this country. I believe in you, and this is a. I believe that you are a better man than you once were in the past, because I'm a better person than I was when I. In the past. If I, if I stand with you, will you fight with me? Will you stand up for me?
- [15:33]
E
I firmly believe that every single American has the right to live the life they want to live in their own body as they see fitness. I also fully recognize that as a cease white male with a bunch of tattoos and a long combat record, that I get to put myself out there in ways that other people don't. I just want to tell you, this is why I'm doing this. I am doing this because I know that I can say things. I know that I can have conversations. I know that I can knock on doors in places that a lot of other people can't have access to, that a lot of other people won't feel safe in. That is a responsibility that I feel, and it is why I am doing this. And I just want to say. I just want to say thank you because I know how hard this is. Yeah. I just want to say that, yes, I will absolutely stand next to you. And if we ever have to go knock doors together, I'm happy to stand by your side.
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B
All right. That is a very skilled guy. Right. That's a guy who understands how to talk to voters in complicated situations. You know, his narrative arc now is I came back from Afghanistan. I was, I was kind of broken down. It kind of wrecked me. I still love my guns. I still love my buddies that I served with. But I'm basically a Bernie bro with a big heart. Right. That's a good theme. And that's what got him all these national endorsements, all this millions of dollars. He's raised a lot of it in small dollars online. And so how is he like Trump and Clinton and how he's navigating this? First of all, populist support. If you've got populist appeal, if you can talk to working class voters like Trump and Clinton can, and like this guy clearly can. Populism right now is where the energy is on both the left and the right. Populism is how you get people revved up. And they say the Clinton and Trump message, if you're coming for Platner, you're coming for the populist movement that he represents and that he's part of. Very effective. Second is blame the media and blame the establishment. Platner tweeted last night and said, you know, if they think they're going to stop me, they're wrong. I'm going to be the one who survives this. The establishment can't beat me. Look at these 700 people. Then again, you say the reason they're coming for me is to stop you. Our agenda is what they're stopping. They're not. They're not interested in my personal life. They. And it's not just the politicians, it's these unnamed, other shadowy figures who are opposing the populist movement. Then we get to the question of apology. This is an interesting one. Platner has been on an apology tour. Clinton and Trump, they apologized a little bit, but not very much. And so a lot of the people I talked to are super interested in is Platner going to transition away from these apology videos he made and move more to defiance? That's what a lot of people have predicted. And you see that now. He's emphasizing in the tweet last night, he didn't say, I got to apologize to 700 people. He said in the tweet, these. You know, the establishment thinks they're going to stop me. They're not. They don't know what a Marine can do. Right. So that's. That's an interesting question and had. When you navigate these. I talk to people about how much apology, how much not then lying. Got to be honest, Clinton and Trump both lied their way through things, but you don't want to lie completely, and you certainly don't want to lie in a way you can get caught. And Platner has been accused of lying, particularly about the tattoo. But what people said is, and again, this is maybe not the thing to share with your kids, but lie where necessary because your supporters are going to forgive you, even if they know you're lying. Famous, I did not have sex with that woman. Ms. Lewinsky, your supporters aren't going to care because they know people lie. They lie about money, they lie about sex, they lie about social media. You don't want to lie excessively, everybody told me. But lie where you need to and then certainly jump on all available distractions, anything you can point to to get people to stop looking at your past. Absolutely. You want to do what happens to Platner right now, I believe, and why he's still in this is exactly what and why 700 people came is what Clinton and Trump did. You take your survival narrative, not the past accusations, not the controversies. You take the survival narrative arc and, and you turn that into a made for tv, made for social media drama that people find to just be an irresistible spectator. It's like a spectacle, it's like a high wire act. How's this guy surviving? I didn't go to the event where 700 people showed up, but I can tell you, because I saw this with Clinton in New Hampshire in 92, I saw it with Trump after Access Hollywood and other controversies. People come because they want to see the spectacle the storyline becomes, not the controversies that created the situation in the first place. The storyline becomes, wow, let's go out and join 700 other people and see this guy in action. How's he doing it? How's he building the credit? It becomes kind of a whole separate story. And it's a story that people find really interesting. And if you like the candidate, if you're already attracted to him, now you got a hero, a hero story. Narrative arcs quite clear, candidates rising, doing quite well. Then the accusations from their enemies come, they start to fall, then they pick themselves back up and they're out there and they're doing what they need to do to win, sending kind of an incredible story. And, and I guarantee you, guarantee you a lot of those 700 people there because they believe in him, but they're there to see the guy open the car door of the car that's crashed, its car's on fire, and he opens the door and he walks out of the car and they want to see the guy walk out of the car. And then the key, this is the key. Once you pass the point where you've made it clear to the media, to whoever it is who's dumping the opposition research on you to your political enemies on both parties, once you've made it clear to them you're not going to quit, that you're in it to stay no matter what, that you're not going to play by the normal rules and say, well, I had all these old Reddit posts and I got a Nazi tattoo, so I got to get out. Once you make that clear, it almost doesn't matter what else happens. Like they say there's going to be more opposition research just like Clinton and Trump took more hits. But once you've passed that point where the narrative is this guy's not quitting, doesn't matter. Every new accusation, accusation, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Those don't resonate anymore. They're just lumped into the mix. More attacks, more criticism, all part of the same blender mix. And it doesn't matter anymore. You can continue to go on. Platner may not be the nominee. The guy in Virginia may not win, Mondami may not win. But those guys all are walking through it, and they're taken right from the Clinton playbook and the Trump playbook. And as just a student of high human drama in politics, it's a pleasure to watch. We'll see what happens to him. I'm curious to see how much money he raises. I'll be looking for that. Tell me what you think about today's reported monologue. Would love to hear from. You can send me an email nextup halperinmail.com nextup halpern gmail.com always watch the program and clips from the show on the platforms popular with the kids and grownups. X Instagram, TikTok the handle there is @nextup halperin. And of course the program's available on Spotify, on Apple, everywhere. You hear podcasts. But you can also Watch us on YouTube if you want. Go to YouTube.com@nextup Halperin trying to build this audience. So tell all your friends and neighbors, co workers, colleagues, and if you're going trick or treating, go to the door and just say trick or treat at NextUp Halpern. Spread the word. Next up here, the gentleman from Tennessee, Senator Bill Haggerty. That's Next up. You ever notice those creepy ads that pop up on your phone and seem to know exactly where you've been, what you bought, even the people you've been talking about? You've probably asked yourself, is this phone monitoring me? Well, the truth is your smartphone is constantly collecting and leaking data without your knowledge and without your consent. Every day, it builds a detailed profile of your life, your location, your habits, your interests, even the people you communicate with. That information is then funneled into an invisible marketplace where it's tracked, analyzed, and sold to the highest bidders. It's not just annoying, it's invasive. And it's happening all the time. But the upphone by Unplugged is different. It's designed to protect your privacy from the ground up. No hidden trackers, no data mining. Just a secure, streamlined smartphone experience that puts you back in control. Whether you're texting, browsing or using any app, the UPPhone ensures your personal information stays personal. It's the phone for people who are done being watched. Are you ready to take back your digital privacy? You can visit unplugged.com mark and get $25 off a phone case with a purchase of a phone. Learn more and order your UPPhone today. That's unplugged.com mark because your life should be yours, not theirs.
- [24:39]
A
Are you ready to get spicy?
- [24:42]
B
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
- [24:46]
A
Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.
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B
A little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.
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C
Maybe it's time to turn up the.
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B
Heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha, spicy but not too spicy. All right. Joining me now and next up, a senator from great state of Tennessee, Bill Haggerty, Republican, who has been in the Senate just now for five years and grateful to him for making time at a busy time on Capitol Hill and around the world. Senator, welcome in.
- [25:26]
D
It's good to be with you, Mark. Thank you.
- [25:28]
B
You lived in one of my favorite buildings on Earth, in the US Ambassador's residence in Japan, across from the great Okora Hotel. And I want to talk about Japan, where the president is right now. But I want to start with you and your relationship with the president. Talk about when you first met Donald Trump and when you first decided he'd be a good president.
- [25:44]
D
You know, I met President Trump years ago, did not know him well until he started talking about the trade imbalances that exist, particularly with respect to China. That would have been 2015, 2016. I eventually became his finance chair for Tennessee and one of the finance chairmen nationally in that race. And the result of that was that we certainly carried my part of the country that I was responsible for, got to know the president much better in the process. And then I came in, literally the day after the election into Trump Tower to help work through the transition process and stayed with him until the 20th of January, when I turned in my paperwork to be the US Ambassador to Japan. And then after a long delay that was instigated by then Chuck Schumer, I finally made it to the post later in 2017 to Tokyo. And I've known him well since then. In fact, President Trump came to visit me in Japan three times when I was ambassador and he was president in the first term, more than any other country he came to visit. He was Just there playing golf with one of my old friends, Matsuyama san, I think. But he developed a great relationship with Shinzo Abe. That was a big goal of mine. Abe san was a friend both the President Trump and myself. And we really deepened ties with Japan during his first term. The second term, I think, will be even stronger. I met with Taki Jisan, the new prime minister. She's just come into office, and she's just met with President Trump. I think they're going to have a very strong relationship as well.
- [27:20]
B
Yeah, I mean, based on the events they did initially, quite something. You can, if you know President Trump at all, not hard to read when he's faking it, when he really seems to have affection and respect for someone. And the two of them seem to be off to a great start. Stay with your relationship with the president for a second, then. I do want to talk about Japan. I try to educate people who've never met the president, including the people in America. You've got constituents like this who don't like him at all. Explain something or things about Donald Trump that you know from having spent time with him that you think you don't see reflected in the news coverage about what he's like.
- [27:51]
D
I think one of the things that people don't understand is that President Trump is constantly thinking about the most difficult challenges that he's got to deal with, and that's dealing with Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, the Ayatollahs. He shows a stern face and a strong posture at every turn. He does that for a reason. America needs to be strong. It needs to project strength. But at the same time, and I think this is what people miss, Mark, is that President Trump has a human side to him that's very dear. That's. That's very caring. I've seen him with people. I. I remember meeting with him the first time with the families of people who had been abducted by the North Koreans in Japan. And President Trump spent over an hour with them, listening to their stories, holding their hands. He's got a caring side to him that seems to be missed altogether in the media. They certainly focus on the strong side. They often take the opportunity to take things out of context, et cetera. But I think what people seem to miss very often is the fact that President Trump is a very humane and caring person.
- [28:51]
B
Yeah, I want to come back to that point, but I want to sidebar on the abductee issue. This is the example I always give about the asymmetrical connection between the US And Japan in Japan, there's really no bigger story. A story of all these families who lost loved ones, who were taken off beaches in small towns by the North Koreans. Every Japanese person knows the story. Every Japanese person knows the names of the abductees. Almost nobody in America, including White House reporters who I've talked to about it, haven't heard of it. President Bush and President Trump have both shown great interest in this, and because of that, their. Their status in Japan is really elevated simply by paying attention to this extraordinary piece of history. On. On the issue of the President's heart. You say it. Everyone I know who spend time with him say it. You're a student of our political media culture. How could that piece of him that's so resonant for you and others, how could that not be reflected in the news coverage? How does that happen?
- [29:47]
D
I don't know, Mark, again, you're much more of a student of the media than I am. I've been at this political life for five years, and it never ceases to amaze me how selective some of the coverage can be. But the media seem to be very invested, broadly speaking. I'm not talking about individual reporters, but just broadly speaking, in somehow characterizing President Trump in some. In a manner and a means that I think is inaccurate, and it fits a narrative that they're trying to create. I mean, you saw this whole effort over the past weekend and a few days ago, the no Kings rally. Somehow President Trump is a dictator. Somehow President Trump is a king. Somehow President Trump is a threat to democracy. When you think about the real threats to democracy, it's exactly what the Democrats have been doing. It happened under Joe Biden's watch. Threats that we've never seen before, weaponizing the legal system. Look, they came after me, Jack Smith, and Operation Arctic frost in 2023 came after eight sitting United States senators. Looking at our phone records, what were they doing, possibly was the motivation, except the fact that we were all Republicans. It's just amazing to me that the media tend to try to portray and try to project what the Democrats are actually doing onto President Trump. It's unbelievable in my. In my. In my viewpoint, but that's just the way it has been.
- [31:08]
B
Yeah. Again, I'm not saying the President's perfect, and he can be kind of an aggressive and mean person, no doubt, but to have the most covered person, I think. I think in the modern history of the country and to not. And to not have this aspect of him ever reflected. The other thing I always list is that he's a Brilliant guy. And my liberal friends say, oh, no, he's an idiot. He's a moron. He's a brilliant person. And again, that's almost never reflected. You could read every New York Times story ever written about Donald Trump. You won't find one that says he's a very smart person.
- [31:37]
D
You know, he's got a sixth sense as well, Mark. I've noticed this from the beginning, working with him closely. He has the ability to intuit what's going to happen. I mean, he's a businessman for his entire career. He's a lot of situations. He's been in a lot of tough negotiating situations. As a business person, he's joked with me very often that you think politics is tough. Try New York real estate. But his experience really does shed light on his intuition. And his intuition has actually been extraordinary in terms of his gift, able to anticipate what's going to happen.
- [32:08]
B
And in my experience, it derives his understanding of systems and economics, et cetera. But it drives first from understanding people, his understanding of people's motivations, their strengths, their weaknesses, what they're likely to do. That's why I think he's been so active in these international things. He. He gets Bibi. Every president I've covered has been frustrated by Bibi. Can rarely get Bibi to do what they want. Prime Minister Netanyahu, to you. I call him Bibi, but, you know, I'm talking about. And. But Donald Trump figured it out, and Putin is the toughest nut to crack. I think tougher than Xi. And yet he's still trying because he has a fingertip feel for what he's like. What does he think of you?
- [32:49]
D
Well, I think we're friends. He's always been as kind as he possibly could be. I also think he knows he can trust me. President Trump and I have disagreed, but never in public. That's a respectful relationship. When he and I talked, particularly when I was ambassador to Japan, I can't imagine anybody being more supportive than he was to me in accomplishing our objectives. And while I was ambassador, we negotiated and successfully delivered two trade deals. Everyone thought that would be impossible. We got the Chinese out of the East China Sea entirely. We calmed the South China Sea significantly. We repositioned our troops, we repositioned our supply chains. We dealt aggressively with China, with North Korea, the situation with South Korea, which was challenging at the time as well, a lot of that happened. And we worked together, I think, very effectively. So I think if President Trump were to say any one thing about me, it would be that he and I have a great working relationship and one that that's comprised of mutual trust and mutual respect.
- [33:46]
B
You were ambassador for a couple years, right?
- [33:48]
D
That's right. I started in 2017. I came to run for the Senate in the fall of 2019. Trump never replaced me. So I was very often on the phone back Tokyo trying to navigate, manage and support that relationship.
- [34:03]
B
So, so, so, so, so as we say in Tokyo, so that job you held as ambassador to Japan has been held by a storied group of Americans from both parties. Ambassador Reischauer, Howard Baker, Caroline Kennedy, Tom Foley, Walter Mondale. And then my favorite, and so those were, that model was states, statesmen and women, people of their own national reputations who, who the Japanese respected because they had that national reputation. And then my favorite was Ambassador Schieffer, President Bush's ambassador. He had close ties to the president. And the Japanese always appreciate an ambassador who can get the president on the phone. And that's the category. And, but Ambassador Schieffer also owned a baseball team. He owned the Texas Rangers. And he put you, I'm sure you know this, he put in the residence pictures of every president throwing out the opening day pitch at the Washington Senators game in that reception room on the ground floor. And, and the Japanese loved it because Schieffer would walk him through all the photos and explain the Kremlin ology like, here's the president who's sitting with the president. So if you want to be ambassador to Japan, I'd say be a world famous politician, claim close friend of the president, or own a baseball team.
- [35:07]
D
Well, Schieffer was, was a great ambassador, not only to Japan, but also Australia.
- [35:11]
B
That's right.
- [35:11]
D
It's his second tour of duty when he was in Japan. And baseball diplomacy I think is what Ambassador Schiefer called it, but did a very good job with that. And if you go all the way back, this would have been before World War II. A Great Exhibition match was played in, in Japan. Babe Ruth came over. It was like a ticker tape parade that happened in Tokyo. And there's a great movie about this mark. It's called the Catcher was a Spy. Yeah, there was a guy named Mo Berg that was on that, that, that, that team that came over. Moberg was perhaps a third or fourth string catcher. Not, not a great baseball player, but he could speak seven languages. You could imagine who he actually worked for. And it was, it was the photographs that Moberg took at night of Tokyo that they used during World War II, when they did the basic carpet bombing of Tokyo, that preserved the residents that you're talking about that preserved critical buildings. If you think about the temples that weren't bombed and destroyed, if you think about our embassy, our residence that was not bombed or destroyed, with the photographs that Mo Berg took when he was over there, again, the catcher who was a spy.
- [36:12]
B
Incredible.
- [36:13]
D
Was just. Just a great story again, of baseball and the convergence with. With Japan culture.
- [36:18]
B
Yeah, I. I envy so many of the experiences I know you had as ambassador. You ever get to do what I got to do. You ever spend time in Japan with Tommy Lasorda? No, it was incredible. He came to the World Expo that I went to and. And the Japanese, of course, just. They love baseball. And Lorda had spent a lot of time in Japan and he just knew how to talk to the Japanese about baseball. Incredible experience. That's another asymmetry. The Japanese are obsessed with baseball and they've had so many successful players. Ohtani is dwarfing everybody else, but they've had lots of success, successful. And I remember one summer I spent in Japan, there were a couple Japanese players on the Yankees, and so every Yankee game would be on live in Japan, and they would. They had special cameras that would just show the Japanese players. So you weren't actually watching the game. You're watching them sit in the duck hat, watching them in the field. It just. There's a. Such a great interest. Talk about Ohtani and, And how he's impacted the relationship between the two countries.
- [37:14]
D
Sure, Mark. In fact, I was ambassador when Ohtani got his visa. I handed it to him. Yes, a fine young man, an upstanding young man. His coach, I know. In fact, I tried to help Vanderbilt, my. My alma mater, recruit his coach's son to come play for us. We didn't get him, but, you know, a great lineage there. Ohtani's turned out to be an absolutely fabulous baseball player, as you know, well rounded and capable in every regard, but also a very decent person and a great role model for young people. He's a hero in Japan, but frankly, he's a hero here in America as well. And I could not be more pleased to see how well he's doing. He represents, I think, a great bridge between the United States and Japan and a part of the bond that goes beyond economics, that goes beyond national defense. It gets to our culture and the fact that we have this shared love of baseball. And you've been to the baseball games. You think about it. Yomiuri, Giant Stadium. It looks like an American baseball setting. It feels like it in a lot of respects, but it's much more organized and it's fun, but it's so different. Something I think every American should, should see.
- [38:17]
B
And the food's better because that's true. That's true of everything in Japan, the food's better than it is.
- [38:22]
D
Ever meet my friend who wrote the book you got to have wa.
- [38:25]
B
No, I know the book, but I'd never met him.
- [38:27]
D
Yeah, no, he's, he's. He's still there. And it's just a great insight. He uses baseball as a means to explain the difference between the United States, Japanese culture and the level of the. Great writer, great writer.
- [38:41]
B
The level of. The level of organization of the cheering at the Japanese games is hilarious. It's like, it's like totally regimented. It's like imagine if the wave were happening nonstop throughout the game. Let's talk about the relationship. Presidents for a while. And the Japanese love this. Call it the most important bilateral relationship in the world and that, you know, more important than British because there's economic, cultural, diplomatic and national security implications. The Japanese continue to not have a. An offensive military. They have a self defense force, but they don't. They have not changed the constitution. It's been debated for a long time to allow them to, to. To do more. They do a ton with us on intelligence and bases. We still have our bases throughout the country. Would it be in the interest of relationship and of the region to allow the Japanese to have a kind of very robust active military to help deal with the threat of China?
- [39:34]
D
I would certainly like to see it more robust market. I would say this. When I was ambassador, Prime Minister Abe felt the same. But the party Prime Minister Abe led, the Liberal Democrat Party, ruled in a coalition with the Comieto Party. Comieto is a Buddhist affiliated party. They're pacifist. They always position themselves as the check on the more conservative, the more defense oriented, if you will, ldp. If you think about Prime Minister Abe being a hawk, if you will, a defense hawk. Prime Minister Akichi, she is more so a defense hawk, I think, than Prime Minister Abe was conservative, hawkish. And I think at this point comiito has left the. Has left. Has sort of left the building in terms of that partnership. And she's formed a new coalition. My sense is that they will be much more forward leaning in terms of national defense. They will be stronger partners. I've met with her and encouraged her to be as interoperable to focus on their increased defense spending. But to make that interoperable with the United States. The US has more, more military stationed in Japan, Mark, than than any place else on the planet. We have about on any given day, 60,000 active duty troops there. Impressive equipment, impressive bases. The coordination and the cooperation can strengthen. It will strengthen. I've seen it happen certainly during my tenure as ambassador and since that time. So I think we're going to see ourselves in closer and closer relationship from a national security and a defense posture. And this new prime minister is going to be, I think, front and center in making that happen.
- [41:01]
B
What's the case you'd make to Americans about why they should care more, pay more attention not just to the bilateral relationship between the US And Japan, but the trilateral. You mentioned before, we started a lot of economics with South Korea and of course there's traditional enmity between South Korea and Japan. One of the things Joe Biden did that was successful, that President Trump also, of course has done, is to try to make peace between our two allies, to try to have them put the historical amnesty aside. Why should Americans pay more attention to our relationship with Japan and with South Korea and the three way relationship?
- [41:31]
D
Well, if you think about the region, Mark, it's a very tough neighborhood. You've got North Korea, you've got Russia, you've got China right at your step. Our two strongest allies in the region, of course, Japan, again the third largest economy, fourth largest depending on exchange rates, but a huge economy in the region. South Korea, a rising economy, very strong partner as well. We have significant military presence in South Korea, also on the peninsula there we have perhaps 18, 20,000 plus active duty US military, mainly army there to deal with a potential incursion on the peninsula. In Japan, as I mentioned before, we have roughly 60,000 US military often in the region because it's mainly Navy, air force that are there and Marines, of course, that are in Okinawa in the region there. So we have a significant military presence and significant cooperation that takes place. The Korean military works very well with us. The Japanese military works very well with us. We need to get them to work better together because in getting them to work better together, we're going to lift the capability of all of us combined at a more important time. I can't imagine in that region. You think about China's threats in the Taiwan Strait. What's happening with North Korea again? Just before President Trump's departure to Malaysia, North Korea launched again. Kim Jong Un is being belligerent yet again. This is a very hot, you know, hot area. The Philippines. I'm deeply concerned about what's happening there right now. And we need to have a greater partnership. Japan has worked with us in the Philippines, as you said. President Biden brought the leaders together from South Korea, from Japan, and they met at Camp David. That's when we initiated the Trilateral Executive Dialogue that's bringing together the CEOs of large companies from South Korea, Japan and America to begin to deepen our economic ties. We've continued to do that. We've met here in the United States. We've met in Seoul. We just met a couple of weeks ago ago in Tokyo. Very successful engagement. And they're what I've seen over these three years that we've done. The Trilateral Executive dialogue. Are these CEOs deepening their relationships, forging partnerships and creating not only new economic and technology partnerships, but partnerships that benefit our national security as well? I think it all goes together and I'm very optimistic about where it can lead.
- [43:47]
B
If you want to be a good citizen, if you want to understand America's role in the world. I know Europe's closer. More people have been to Europe. There's more cultural resonance for at least some of the European countries. But if you care about the future of this country, pay attention to the stuff the senator just laid out. The economic, military, national security, diplomatic, cultural bonds between Japan, U.S. south Korea. It's vital. It's vital. And while it's robust, it can be a lot deeper. And what you just mentioned, that CEO activity, that's part of what's needed. But if we're going to check the existential threat from the Chinese, there has to be this, this trilateral relationship continue to grow. So I'm grateful to you for continuing to work on it. And again, I'd urge everybody read into this. It doesn't get covered as much as Europe. It's further away. But it's just, it's just so vitally important. Let's talk about the shutdown. Had a military spouse on two way this morning from, from your state who was in near, in tears. I think she probably was in tears but not, you know, she was upset talking about. I said to her she's three time Trump voter and I said if you could talk to President Trump about the economy because she's very worried about the economy. I said what would you tell him? And she said fun snap. Get people what they need to eat because we've got millions of people in this country already having trouble getting enough food and now the disruptions upon us. I know your party blames The Democrats and says it's very simple to fund snap. Just come back. But where's, where's the solution to this? Where's the solution so that the greatest nation in the world is feeding its people and ending this conflict? Given the Democrats posture, it's downright embarrassing.
- [45:28]
D
Mark, that we are where we are and that Chuck Schumer has allowed his own party politics to get in the way of the American public. You describe my constituent who's concerned and suffering in Tennessee. We're going to have roughly 700,000 people that are affected by this, this SNAP benefit issue that will take place on the 1st of November if Chuck Schumer doesn't come to the table. What he's done is emphasize the fact that he is going to stand up and resist Trump. He's asking for a $1.5 trillion ransom to reopen the government. That's not going to happen. It's not even. It's laughable. I think what he's really focused on are the dynamics in his home state of New York. You've got a situation where in New York they're about to vote in a communist mayor. You, you've got a situation where today. And we've polled it. I've looked at the data. AOC would defeat Chuck Schumer in a primary for the United States Senate for the Democrats.
- [46:22]
B
Whose state is that?
- [46:24]
D
That's. That's New York. That, that's.
- [46:26]
B
Who did the poll?
- [46:28]
D
I can't remember who did the polling.
- [46:29]
B
But it was a private poll or a public poll.
- [46:32]
D
I think it was a private poll, but I've seen it here.
- [46:34]
B
All right. When you scroll through your phone, text it over to me. I'd like to see it. Sorry, go ahead.
- [46:39]
D
Yeah, but, but in any event, I think that Chuck Schumer is deeply concerned about his own political future. And what he's doing is putting his own political future, if this is the case, he's putting his own political future in, in the way of the well being of many, many Americans. And you talk about the SNAP benefits, but I'd also reiterate this. You've got people that are missing their second paycheck now. We've got people that work at ice, law enforcement that are risking their lives every day, that aren't being compensated. You think about air traffic control. If they start not coming to work, they're going to miss a paycheck as well. They start not coming to work, it slows down the whole air traffic system. What if that were to shut down? That would bring this country to its knees. And Chuck Schumer is literally playing Russian roulette. All he needs to do is come back to the table. We've offered, I think, everything that one could want. We actually put in place legislation last week that they voted down to at least fund the essential workers in the US Government. No, we tried to get them to come back to the table to work on our appropriations bills. The Democrats would have a say in all the appropriations if they would only come to the table and work with us. They will not do it. This is all about resistance. It's about standing up to Trump. It's about no kings in their rally that they had last weekend, which was ridiculous. And in the meantime, the American public is suffering. And as you mentioned, Mark, we're going to have a lot more suffering to come if they don't step up and come to the table.
- [47:55]
B
I know the president agrees to that. Your colleagues on the Hill do. Tens of millions of Americans do. But we are where we are. Wouldn't it be good, or would it be good for the president to reach out to Schumer and say, let's have, let's have talks to figure this out, rather than just waiting for him to cave in?
- [48:12]
D
Well, Mark, I'll remind you, they already met Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries demanded.
- [48:17]
B
Didn't go great.
- [48:18]
D
And it didn't go great.
- [48:20]
B
How about another one?
- [48:21]
D
Yeah, they just want to be able to point to the meeting. They want to step out in front of the White House and somehow try to blame it on Trump.
- [48:27]
B
They asked. They did ask for another meeting. So, again, I'm not here to debate you about whether your critique of Schumer's motives and putting the blame on him, but would you favor the president taking them up on the offer and trying to have another meeting to figure it out?
- [48:42]
D
I would advise him not to even waste his time right now because Chuck Schumer's not being serious. If they literally will vote, Mark, not to fund essential workers, they will vote not to fund the military. If they will vote to deprive the, you know, the government workers here that are coming in day and night and getting, not getting paid, they're not even serious enough to step up to the plate to do that, or they're not serious enough to step up to the plate and approve our National Defense Authorization bill, which they again, blocked. All we have right now is resistance. And I don't know what Trump could accomplish meeting with Schumer at this point in time. Schumer's the one that's going to have to come to reality. He's going to have to look in the mirror and ask himself, is my political future? And again, I don't understand how pandering to the far left of his party plays out in New York State. But somehow he's placing that goal, that drive and that desire to address his own political concerns in New York State ahead of that of the American public and, frankly, our national defense. You think about it, Mark, who is looking after the nuclear arsenal? They're not getting paid. Are we going to start furloughing people like this? It's going to have to come to an end. And I think it's going to require an awakening on the part of the Democrats more than anything President Trump might do in the Oval Office.
- [49:49]
B
Okay, let me ask you about your colleagues. You exempt yourself. So I'm asking about 99 other folks. I'm not gonna ask you superlative. Who's the most or the best? Just somebody who you think has these traits and just maybe tell us why. Who's a senator, who's smart, who you find impressively smart.
- [50:04]
D
You know, Mark, I have been amazed, as you mentioned at the outset of this. I've only been doing this for five years. I never even ran for dog catcher, not student government. I never ran for any office. And when I got to the United States Senate, I've been amazingly impressed with the intelligence of my colleagues here. The vast majority of them quite intelligent. I can understand how they got here. And even though I disagree with them ideologically, Mark, I respect the fact that most of them are here doing what they believe is right. And we have some extraordinarily smart people. We were just, I was just talking with John Kennedy yesterday, who's, who's got a demeanor that, you know, is very colloquial and fun, but he's a Rhodes scholar and smart whip.
- [50:41]
B
Yeah, good choice. That guy's, that guy's a genius. Even though he tells jokes like, like he's maybe a truck driver. Not that there aren't genius truck drivers. Who's a funny senator?
- [50:50]
D
Well, I'd have to go back to Kennedy again on that.
- [50:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, two for two. And Kennedy, who's a brave senator, courageous.
- [50:56]
D
Senator, you know, Tom Cotton is, is, is steadfast and courageous. You got Tim Sheehy, another guy new to the Senate. But, you know, these guys are heroes in my book. They stand strong. But we have a lot of brave senators.
- [51:10]
B
Again, I'm stipulating you're. By naming one, you're not saying no one else fits it. Who's a senator who you think someday will be president of the United States. United States.
- [51:17]
D
Well, we've got a lot of those. Yes, a lot, A lot of people.
- [51:20]
B
That, yes, look in the mirror and see, see a future president. But who's, who's one you'd bet on to say, yeah, that person might someday be president?
- [51:27]
D
Well, you know, J.D. was a senator.
- [51:29]
B
Yeah, so, so was Marco. But I'm exempting them because they're not there now. 99 choices. Who's, who's somebody there who you think someday is a good chance.
- [51:37]
D
I mentioned Tim Sheehy, a very attractive in the Senate, Tom Cotton, you know, a strong player. You've got Josh Hawley, you've got Ted Cruz. You've got a number of people on our side that I think could make excellent candidates. And that's, that's not the end of the list at all. And on the Democrat side, you've got a number of Democrats. You know, Ruben Gallego is out, I think working it pretty hard right now. Kirsten Gillbrand has run before, might do it again. You've got a number, number of folks on the, on the Democrat side as well that I could see easily becoming their, their nominee, their, their party.
- [52:10]
B
Yeah. And let's say the vice president announced he wasn't going to run for president, just surprised us all and said, you know, I'm taking myself out for 28. Who would you put in the mix then, at that point, who might run and be strong?
- [52:23]
D
You know, I would not limit it to two senators.
- [52:26]
B
No, I mean, I mean, overall, not just Senate. Now I'm broadening it out. Senator Rubio, Secretary Rubio would clearly be on the list. But who else, Senators or otherwise, who you'd say, yeah, I think they take a look at it and have a chance.
- [52:37]
D
Someone that I think is very attractive is Glenn Youngkin in Virginia. Smart, capable, has done a good job with the state. You know, he's somebody that would certainly be on the list. There are a number of strong and solid governors across the country that you'd have to take a look at. As I said, there are a number of my colleagues here in the United States Senate that would be strong, and I'm sure that there are a few congressional members. And then don't leave out, you think about the example that Donald Trump has said, don't leave out the fact that there could be a successful business person that might decide to step up and run, but it's not a politician. I think that's been you know, a source of great appeal for President Trump. And that could happen again.
- [53:14]
B
Yeah. There was talk of you serving in the Cabinet, and you ended up staying in the Senate. Is a future Cabinet job a possibility for you in this term, for the president?
- [53:21]
D
Well, I think I'm where I need to be right now. I'm running for United States Senate again. I'm up in 2026. It's the greatest honor of my lifetime to have the chance to do this, to serve my home state. I'm from a small town in Tennessee. I never imagined that I would be able to represent my state in a position like this and to be able to touch as many lives as I've been able to touch. So I feel extraordinarily, extraordinarily fortunate, I should say, to be able to do this. And I'm more than happy to serve in the United States Senate.
- [53:49]
B
All right, lastly, I'm asking everybody this. How do you personally use AI, if at all, in your life now to do. To do stuff day to day?
- [53:56]
D
You know, it's an amazing timesaver in a lot of respects, but also it's just a way to organize research, and you think about the number of different things that hit us every day in the United States Senate. To be able to go in and put a query into AI and get a very quick, very, very well organized, generally speaking, series of points on a given issue that might be new to you. But it basically helps brief me. My staff use it, I'm sure, in the briefing memos that I go through every night. And I usually go home, Mark, with a. With a binder this thick every night. But it's a great efficiency tool as a business person and somebody who's obviously optimistic. I've got four kids who wouldn't be optimistic if you didn't. Didn't. If you weren't, you wouldn't have such a big family. I'm optimistic about where I may lead us. I sat down with Masa sun, the CEO of SoftBank, When I was in Japan just over a week ago, and we talked about where AI might lead us. He's one of the largest investors in AI on the planet. He talked about the fact that we're going to get to superintelligence very quickly, and I asked him to define superintelligence. He said, that is 10,000 times smarter than the human brain. And if you think about the ability, Mark, to put into one of these large language models everything from Aristotle to the present time on any given topic and use algorithms to go through and analyze that data. We're going to be able to achieve some amazing breakthroughs. Masa couldn't have been more optimistic. And, and he shared that optimism with me. I'll share it with you. I think we're going to see some great things in the future.
- [55:25]
B
All right, Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee, former US Ambassador, Japan Domo arigato.
- [55:30]
D
I got to thank you.
- [55:32]
B
Thank you, Senator. Say onara. Appreciate the senator being here. And next up, Steve Alacar, Democratic strategist, a former senate candidate from Wisconsin. Super bright guy. We'll talk about his view of where we are in the shutdown in American politics. That's next stop right after this. If you're 64 years of age or older, this is an important announcement. The Department of Justice recently sued three major Medicare brokers for claiming they were unbiased while allegedly pushing people into plans that got them the biggest kickbacks. It's so true. Many insurance agents, they just can't be trusted. But you cannot necessarily rely on government resources or information either. That's why I want you to know about chapter. CHAPTER was started by people who went through this exact thing personally after their own parents were pushed into the wrong Medicare plan by an insurance agent more focused on commissions than on the best care. Chapter's mission is very simple. To give every American the honest, straightforward Medicare advice that they need and that they deserve. And here's what's different about chapter. They're the only Medicare advisor that compares every single plan nationwide, not just a handful. That saves their clients an average of eleven hundred dollars a year. So for you, there's no reason not to call. It's quick and it's easy and they will review your options. In Most cases under 20 minutes. If you're already in the correct plan for you, they'll tell you that. They'll confirm it. But if there's a better one, they're going to help you make the switch. This could be the most important call you make this year. So dial pound 250 and say the words chapter Medicare to get the peace of mind and the best information. Again, that's £250 and say Chapter Medicare.
- [57:15]
A
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- [57:45]
B
Next up, everybody. Someone I just love talking to. And if you've never heard him, I think you'll be delighted. You'll say, mark, thank you for booking Steven Olakara on the show and have him back regularly. Stephen is a builder, a dreamer, a realist, an optimist, and a determined man to help make the country better. There's so many people in public life who I have on my programs who, you know, in all honesty, I'm like, yeah, they think it's fun, it's interesting, lucrative, whatever they want. The power, just. Stephen wears his heart on his sleeve, as Joe Biden would say, literally, I'd say figuratively. But he's built a bunch of stuff, involved in a bunch of stuff, all with the goal of making public life better, making the national town square safer, nicer, and more productive. And amongst his many titles, Senior Fellow for Political Transformation at the University of Southern California, Schwarzenegger Institute. Stephen, welcome to NextUp. Thank you for being here.
- [58:41]
C
Thank you. Very honored to be here.
- [58:43]
B
What do you get to do all day as a Senior Fellow for Political Transformation? That sounds August.
- [58:49]
C
Well, it's one of the hats that I wear, and my whole life is focused on how politics can better respond to people's needs and bridge some of the divides in our country. So the work with the Schwarzenegger Institute is focused on, as we like to say with Arnold, terminating polarization. But the other hat that I wear is with Bridge Entertainment Labs, and that's harnessing the power of storytelling and media to combat the toxic polarization in our country. And as you know, Mark, that's been a calling and a mission of mine for a long time.
- [59:20]
B
Yeah. So you ran for Senate in Wisconsin, where you're from, and now you're doing these. They're kind of like not think tanks. They're kind of like, what do they call that, active tanks. You're not just thinking, you're actually doing stuff. So what's the mission of Bridge Entertainment Labs? Like, what are the metrics of success? If things go great, what will you have accomplished over the next couple years?
- [59:44]
C
I think the epiphany that I had after running for Senate in Wisconsin was the idea that culture precedes politics. And I've been working directly with state legislators and members of Congress for many years through an organization I founded called Future Caucus, and for the many bipartisan bills we were passing on criminal justice reform or clean energy. It occurred to me that if the style of politics that we're looking for isn't in the cultural air we breathe and the water we drink, it doesn't really feel like the atmosphere has changed. And so I really started thinking a lot about the role of storytelling, the role of entertainment. The field that I come from, the depolarization field, has never had really a foothold in the entertainment industry. So I felt it's important to build that. And so that's the idea. With Bridge Entertainment Labs, we work with major film studios, with TV showrunners, writers, directors, producers, many of whom have that curiosity gene. But because we live in such a divided time, it's hard to step outside of people's echo chambers. So we're seeking more nuanced characters. And so if you see more pieces of cultural content that have nuanced depictions of Americans across our lines of difference, that would be success for us.
- [61:08]
B
So you're making videos and other content for social media. You're making documentaries. What kind of content are you doing?
- [61:15]
C
Yeah, includes documentaries. We're even advising major studios and upcoming films. We're working with Pixar, for example, on a film that will be coming out in the future. A lot of it is investing in the tools and the resources for storytellers to tell these bridge building kind of stories. A lot of times you see the problem happen where you have a depiction of a rural American. We saw this recently in the Superman film where you have Clark Kent's parents living in Kansas with a southern accent, almost like a stereotype of caricature of what people in Kansas would, how they would operate and speak. And so we're really trying to help storytellers understand the real lived experiences of Americans across the country.
- [62:01]
B
Where can people see your content?
- [62:04]
C
You can see our content in a few places right now. We have a few films on the film festival circuit. One is called Creed usa, which is about a small town in Colorado. Another is called Bucks county usa, which is about the school board battles in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. The film Civil War that came out last year, we were advisors on that film. So you can find that on hbo. And another film, we had this come out recently, it's on Amazon prime, is called Elephant in the Room. And it's basically a romantic comedy about two individuals who suddenly find out they voted for two different people in the last election. And as you know, Mark, this is a source of many divisions in America. Many couples, many relationships are broken up because of politics. So we wanted to examine that a little bit more closely.
- [62:55]
B
And again, just to state the obvious, the goal of all this is to. Is to use art and documentary making to put in sharp relief that the basis of the sharp divisions in the country and hopefully through looking at them in the eye and understanding them, maybe diffuse them. Right.
- [63:13]
C
Yeah, exactly. In the story of Creed usa, which is a small mining town in Colorado, there was a local theater company that moved in. And so you had a lot of progressives from New York and other coastal cities come into the small, very conservative town. And so you naturally have these cultural and political collisions that happen, represented in many cases on the school board. They're debating issues like the school health curriculum, the books that they're reading. And as you can imagine, there was a lot of division. But at the same time they started to build real relationships. They started to humanize and understand where each other was coming from. And there are some beautiful scenes towards the end of the film where one of the school board members is leaving, the one who had been sort of ostracized over the course of many meetings. And people really said that they had come to love her, that they didn't want her to leave and that they really valued her contributions on the school board.
- [64:11]
B
Yeah. So you ran for senate as a Democrat. You're still a Democrat, but you're not trying to. You're trying to do something that's not going to advantage Democrats politically. Right. So what's the, what's the, what's the mission here? Is it to. Is it to make politics less bitter? Because you're not trying to take politics out of politics? Because that can't be done and shouldn't be done. So what does it look like if you succeed, if people take to heart your message, how does it change the relative balance of power or does it advantage or disadvantage either party?
- [64:41]
C
Well, Mark, when I was growing up in Wisconsin, my first passion in life was actually not politics, it was music. I grew up playing in a lot of different bands and I would say jazz music is the best expression of the kind of politics I believe in and the kind of politics we hope to build in America. And that is A, politics where we, A, truly listen to each other's perspectives, B, we're fully present in conversations. Jazz is a call and response kind of art form. And C, we're able to create new ideas together. Jazz is an improvised kind of art form as well. And so you're right, it's not about one party or the other. I really came up in a non political background. I got political through the Obama campaign, which is a whole story. But I want politics to represent the Ideas of, you know, the experience that I had growing up where I did not look like anyone in the community. I was living in suburban Milwaukee, but at the same time was able to build community and be accepted by the community. And I want a politics where we're truly able to hear each other, because in a diverse democracy, our society relies on us to have real conversations as opposed to being fighting and in conflict with each other all the time. Yeah.
- [66:10]
B
I just so appreciate the attitude you have and how well you express it, because my guess is a vast majority of Americans agree with you. But as you know well, and people listening to us and watching us know, we built up a system over the last 30 years or so where the incentives for the politicians and the media and the activists is to be the loudest, angriest, most polarizing voices on the national 10 square, because that's how you raise money and get cable TV shows, et cetera. And you're trying to change the incentives. Right. So that's right. People ask all the time for nonprofits, and sometimes they ask with, I believe, excessive suspicion. Who's funding you? Who's funding your organization? I don't usually care all that much because there's. There's enough transparency under the law. But. But who is. Who is the type of person who wants to help you do these things? Who is it? Is it Schwarzenegger? Wealthy guy. And although he's often caricatured, he's been an historic force to say to both parties, we got to change the political culture. Who is the kind of person who wants to support that? Is it super rich people? Is it people at the grassroots? How do you. How do you build for. Not just for your two organizations, but more generally? How does this movement to give the American people what they actually want? How does that get funded?
- [67:21]
C
Yeah, it's a great question, because the activist donors involved in politics are some of the most polarizing forces in American society right now. And over the last 15 years, you know, when I was first getting started, I knew I had to build a new donor community that believes in this kind of mission. People who might not just be Democrats and Republicans, but part of what I call an exhaustive majority of Americans who want to see a better kind of politics and want to focus on solutions and not partisanship. And so I had to build that. And this was starting around 2012, 2013, when I was launching my first organization. And it's tough because a lot of you're not feeding people with red meat. I think you're feeding people a vision of how democracy can be better. And you know, I don't come from a famous family or a super privileged family. And so I didn't have a lot necessarily to offer donors other than a mission that we can buy into. And so it just took a lot of time. And when we were running for office a few years ago in Wisconsin, I had to really bring that to political donors who are used to giving to campaigns, but not used to this mission or vice versa. Donors who believe in the mission but not used to giving to campaigns. And so I had to sort of bridge that gap.
- [68:49]
B
When you think about the mayor's race here in New York City and there's so many issues, there's so many cross cutting themes, but one issue is, is leave aside Mandami's inexperience, leave aside his, his, his, his policy positions that, that are socialist or communist or whatever they are. He's, he's trying to become a Muslim mayor of New York City. And some cities have had Muslim mayors, but obviously the biggest city in New York and, and not surprising, but disappointing. That hasn't been handled very well. Right. People who are bigoted against him have, have, have expressed that. And, and he, I believe, has exploited the issue and made up things that aren't true. What if, what, what are your thoughts on where it says we are as a city, as a country, that someone could become the first Muslim heir? That's, that's good if you, if you want pluralism and opportunity, regardless of faith, but also where we are in terms of how it's been treated in the race.
- [69:54]
C
Well, I think pluralism is the right word to use here because his election, putting his ideology aside, is reflective of a more pluralistic country that we're always seeking to achieve in America. And you're right, I have been disappointed in recent weeks as the election gets closer and I think more of the establishment starts panicking that he might really get elected. And you've seen, for example, the endorsement when Eric Adams was standing next to Andrew Cuomo using some unfortunate dog whistle type rhetoric to just make Mamdani seem as extreme and foreign and ethnic and different as possible. And those are comments that I don't appreciate. I think that whoever you are, regardless of where you are in the political spectrum, you should be winning based on what you believe is right for the future, not trying to tie Mamdani in with Islamic extremism abroad, which has nothing to do with his candidacy. And so I do think this is always a challenge in America. And we saw it even when Obama was running for president. There's long been a playbook to try and make people just seem more foreign than they actually are. And I think it's incumbent on the people who are trying to be the first of something to play twice as well, to be taken equally as seriously and not give people a chance to discredit their campaigns.
- [71:32]
B
I almost so completely, almost always so completely agree with you that I, that I just said spellbound and listen. But what you just said, one thing I don't agree with. Respectfully, I want to ask you. You said it's got nothing extreme. Islamic extremism overseas has nothing to do with his candidacy. He's associated with people not in a kind of long ago or indirect way. He's posed for smiling photos with folks and praised folks who have expressed views that are offensive to people. And whether you want to call it Islamic extremism or not, I've been again, critical of him because he, he sort of wants to have it both ways. He wants to say and do things that are offensive to people and then he wants to either fudge his position or lie about his position or not engage on his position in ways that really unsettle a lot of people and make them suspicious. So if he said, I'm not taking any positions on any foreign policy issues, I'm not going to meet with people who have controversial foreign policy positions. I want this to be about affordability. That'd be one thing. But, but hasn't he opened the door to some of these criticisms? Not dog whistles, but legitimate questions about the judgment of a 30, of an inexperienced 34 year old man who wants to be mayor of New York City, which does have foreign policy because it's New York City.
- [72:47]
C
Yeah, I do think he needs to be held accountable for any endorsement that he is trotting out there as a key part of his campaign. He needs to be certainly accountable to the positions he's had in the past. He also has positions right now that many people, including myself, would consider outside of the mainstream. For example, having government run grocery stores. So sure, make the case for those things. I think that's what he needs to be held accountable for. What Eric Adams was doing in his press conference was talking about Islamic terrorism abroad in the same sentence that he was talking about Mamdani.
- [73:29]
B
That.
- [73:30]
C
So it was a little bit too cute. He didn't say that Mamdani is responsible for that, but he did say it in consecutive sentences.
- [73:38]
B
Yeah, I agree with you about that. Although my problem is even though he's the Mayor of my city. I don't take Eric Adams seriously. I probably, probably should hold him accountable since he was endorsing Cuomo, but I just, I just can't take him seriously. I'm a huge believer in what you're doing and I hope you succeed. But I always go back to this. We had three consecutive two term presidents, Clinton, Obama, Bush and Obama, who by their history, their inclination, their determination, their announcement speeches, their convention speeches, their accept their inaugural addresses. You couldn't find three guys more determined to bring the country together and more equipped to do it and more willing to stand up to their own party, more willing to, very knowledgeable about the origins of it. And not only did each of them leave office more polarizing. Clinton is a slight exception, but certainly Bush and Obama, they left office more polarizing than when they came in. And Clinton didn't achieve anything like the level of unity he wanted. And now Obama and Bush in particular, they're virtually silent. They're, you know, they're following the rule. If you're former president, you're not supposed to speak out. But Bush doesn't stand up to the extremism in his party. Obama every so often does it and then he gets beaten up by the far left and he stops. How can we? How could we? If you agree with me that I think a president's essential, but certainly it's important, certainly a part of setting our political culture. If those three guys couldn't do it, who could do it?
- [75:04]
C
It's a great question. It's a question I've thought a lot about, especially in relation to Obama. I think each of those presidents had their moments. In fact, the one I was just thinking of with our last conversation about Mamdani was President Bush, I think extraordinary effort after immediately after 9 11.
- [75:21]
B
Totally. Totally. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just want to say you're absolutely right. Each of them had their moments. You could do a catalog of things each of them did. But. But on total, in total, you know, you're right. Proofs in the pudding. It's they didn't leave the world. The country's political culture less polarized. So sorry, but. But you're right. I do want to highlight the moments like the one you said. What Bush did after 911 for the Muslim American community and for the country as a whole was heroic.
- [75:46]
C
Absolutely. And I think the way that Obama articulated his vision leading up to his election in 2008 was really beautiful. And I think our whole country needs to reflect on really what happened. And I have a lot. And I'm what I would call an Obama originalist, going back to his 2004 speech. And sometimes I felt that I still believe in that mission when many of the people around Obama I've worked with and met don't really believe in that mission. Some of them are the most partisan operatives that I've met in politics. And sometimes I'm thinking, wait, I really believe in what this guy was saying in 2004. I'm not sure about all of them. And so I think there are a couple problems here. One is, if you want to get elected, especially to high office, you do need to work with super partisan consultants. And a lot of times they end up driving the messaging. And often that is at the expense of this more unifying message that I think America needs. I think the other thing is that no single president has the ability to truly execute this vision. That's one key realization I had coming into 2012, 2013, which is why I started an organization to build a movement of the next generation of lawmakers who can really take the vision of a better kind of political culture where we respect each other, have real conversations and constructive disagreement, and implement it. And Mark, I'm excited to say that that has happened in terms of that organization. There's about 2,000 young elected officials across the country, many of whom have stood up to their parties and some extraordinary ways. In fact, I'll give a quick example. The gerrymandering reform that happened in Ohio during Republican leadership, when Republicans had gerrymandered that state. The reform was led by a Republican who is a leader in our organization, who was the Secretary of State at the time, named Frank LaRose. And so we see all these examples of political courage. It just hasn't truly affected the zeitgeist yet and the stories we choose to tell as a country. That's why I'm so focused on media right now. I'm grateful to be on platforms like this.
- [78:06]
B
Yeah. You know, to borrow the line from John Lennon, people may say you're a dreamer, but you're not the only one. But you're an extraordinary one. And I'm really proud to be able to have you on my shows and. And to try to spread the word about your work and about the ethos that you bring to this, because it's so important and so rare. That. And the thing is, you've got a nice demeanor, you're a very polite guy, but you're tough as hell. And that's what it takes. It's going to take people who are tough minded about this, who understand what everybody's up against and really work to change it. And I don't accept that this can't be changed. In fact, I've always said this was actually one of the easiest problems to solve in theory because there's no natural resources involved, it doesn't cost any money. It's just people have to understand what's good for America, for our children and grandchildren. And again, on behalf of the nexters and my communities, I'm so grateful to you for working so hard at something that's complicated and essential and just not enough people who are doing it are as hard headed and big hearted as you are. So I'm grateful to you, Stephen.
- [79:07]
C
Well, that means a lot. And Mark, the type of legendary career you've had in journalism, there are obviously many things you could do in the media world and you've chosen to create platforms that give space to nuanced conversations. And I think that's honestly one of the biggest things we need right now. And when I had just finished the campaign for U.S. senate, I gave a major speech on democracy. What are the three most important structural changes we need? And I spoke to two that would be more obvious in the democracy reform community, which is opening up our primaries, dealing with the money and politics that profits on, on polarization. But the third was media. And I remember saying at the time, I don't see enough efforts, enough talented people in the space who can truly reinvent the media conversation. And shortly after that I saw some of the platforms you were launching. And so I'm honored to be in conversation with you to be a part of the platforms you're building, Mark, because it's one of the biggest pieces of the solution that I see out there.
- [80:08]
B
Very grateful to you for that. Tell folks again if they want to follow your work, your content for, for you and your organizations, where they can.
- [80:14]
C
Go, yes, well, find me on social media. StevenOlikara and our organization Bridge Entertainment Labs is bridge entertainmentlabs.org or look us up at the Schwarzenegger Institute as well.
- [80:28]
B
Yeah, Stephen, very grateful to you and look forward to having you back. And all I'd say is everybody who's interested in making the country better, you can still be a rabid partisan, you can still be MAGA or anti maga, but you can do it along the lines and the values that Stephen's espousing and it's the right thing for our kids and grandkids. So pay attention. Stephen, thank you.
- [80:51]
C
Thank you.
- [80:52]
B
All right. That's it for today's program. Thursday we'll be back with an all new, brand new episode. Make sure you subscribe and download nextup. Wherever you get your podcast, watch us on YouTube like subscribe etc. Etc. Etc. Stay with us every week, twice a week so you always know what's coming. Next up.