Why The Bidens are "Big Liars," and Joe Scarborough on His "Best Biden Ever" Moment and What He Saw

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next Up with Mark Halperin Episode: Why The Bidens are "Big Liars," and Joe Scarborough on His "Best Biden Ever" Moment and What He Saw
Release Date: May 20, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Next Up with Mark Halperin, host Mark Halperin engages in an in-depth discussion with longtime friend and political commentator Joe Scarborough. The conversation centers around the Biden family's credibility, specifically questioning the integrity of Joe Biden, and delves into the media's role in portraying Biden's mental acuity. The episode offers a nuanced exploration of political narratives, personal observations, and media accountability.

Mark Halperin’s Critique of Joe Biden and Media Coverage

Mark Halperin opens the discussion by addressing his longstanding conversations with Joe Scarborough about President Joe Biden's mental health. Halperin emphasizes that their discussions are grounded in data rather than dogmatic beliefs. He asserts that the prevailing narrative portraying the Bidens as inherently good and truthful is increasingly being challenged by recent developments.

Key Points:

• Media’s Favorable Treatment: Halperin criticizes the media for mythologizing the Bidens, suggesting that they have been treated as paragons without flaws. He argues this has led to a lack of critical scrutiny regarding Biden's integrity and honesty.

• Biden Inc. and Truthfulness: He references specific incidents where the Bidens allegedly failed to tell the truth, such as misrepresentations about "Biden Inc." and inaccuracies during the 2020 presidential debates concerning Hunter Biden's business dealings.

• Mental Acuity Concerns: Halperin raises concerns about Biden's cognitive abilities, citing personal observations and interactions that suggest a decline in mental sharpness.

Notable Quotes:

• “The mythology that the Bidens are good people who don't lie is not borne out by the facts.” ([04:10])
• “It has been a horrible mistake on the part of the media to treat the Bidens like they walk on water.” ([05:25])

Recent Developments Highlighting Biden’s Decline

Halperin outlines four key strands that have recently brought Biden’s mental and ethical decline into sharper focus:

1. Audio Tape Release: Last Friday, an audio tape of Biden’s conversations with a special counsel was released, revealing discussions that suggest potential mishandling of classified materials. The Biden White House had previously blocked its release, anticipating political fallout.

2. New Book by Journalists: A new book by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson discusses Biden’s mental decline and the alleged cover-up by his close associates. Halperin expresses skepticism about the book’s thoroughness in addressing who exactly covered up Biden’s issues.

3. Cancer Diagnosis Timing: Biden’s sudden announcement of a late-stage cancer diagnosis coincided suspiciously with the release of the audio tape and the new book, suggesting a possible strategic move to garner public sympathy.

4. Democratic and Media Complicity: Halperin accuses Democrats and mainstream media outlets of failing to report honestly on Biden’s decline, prioritizing political gains over truthful journalism.

Notable Quotes:

• “Show how that untouched mythos is being challenged by these recent revelations.” ([06:15])
• “What just happened is four to seven years of a cover up and of a family that put their own ambition ahead of reality.” ([07:45])

Joe Scarborough’s Response and Perspective

Joe Scarborough joins Halperin to present a counter-narrative regarding Biden’s mental acuity and the media’s portrayal. Scarborough acknowledges that Biden has both good and bad days but disputes the notion that the media has excessively shielded Biden from scrutiny.

Key Points:

• Personal Interactions: Scarborough shares his firsthand experiences with Biden, highlighting that while Biden has had moments of coherence and sharpness, there have been noticeable lapses in his public performances.

• Debate Performance: The discussion covers Biden’s performance in recent debates, with Scarborough arguing that such moments should not have been surprising to those who have observed Biden closely over the years.

• Media Accountability: While agreeing that mainstream media may have shortcomings, Scarborough contends that Halperin overstates the extent of the media's complicity in covering up Biden’s decline.

Notable Quotes:

• “Anyone who is surprised by the debate performance wasn’t paying attention.” ([60:29])
• “If he had to stumble through it, he would have already been off the ticket.” ([67:43])

Debate Performance and Its Implications

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Biden’s performance in a recent debate. Halperin argues that Biden’s struggles in the debate were not unexpected based on previous observations and interactions. Scarborough counters by emphasizing that while there were moments of faltering, Biden also demonstrated cognitive strengths during in-depth policy discussions.

Key Points:

• Pre-Debate Expectations: Halperin asserts that those familiar with Biden’s past public appearances could anticipate his challenging debate performance.

• In-Depth Meetings: Scarborough recalls extensive, three-hour policy discussions with Biden where he exhibited strong analytical skills, suggesting that Biden’s cognitive abilities may not be as impaired as critics claim.

• Selective Amnesia: Both agree that the debate showcased Biden’s less polished moments, but Scarborough believes that Halperin overlooks instances where Biden performed admirably in policy-focused settings.

Notable Quotes:

• Halperin: “He has moments in public which I could show you many of, where clearly he was having bad moments.” ([56:19])
• Scarborough: “He has plenty of good moments, including with you.” ([50:47])

Media’s Role in Covering Biden’s Mental Acuity

The dialogue transitions into a critique of how mainstream media outlets like The New York Times and The Washington Post have handled reporting on Biden’s mental health. Halperin criticizes these outlets for failing to investigate or report Biden’s cognitive decline adequately, while Scarborough defends the media’s efforts as not part of a grand conspiracy but rather cases of selective reporting and competitive journalism.

Key Points:

• Wall Street Journal’s Attempt: Halperin discusses an attempt by The Wall Street Journal to expose Biden’s decline, which he characterizes as a flawed effort due to unreliable sources, particularly quoting Kevin McCarthy’s contradictory statements.

• Mainstream Media Failures: Halperin maintains that mainstream media has either underreported or misrepresented Biden’s mental state, thereby diminishing public awareness and accountability.

• Scarborough’s Defense: Scarborough acknowledges that while the media has made mistakes, there isn’t evidence of a coordinated effort to hide Biden’s issues. He emphasizes the complexity of media coverage and the challenges in reporting nuanced personal health matters.

Notable Quotes:

• Halperin: “It's extraordinary how far from that point of view... there's a huge failure on the part of the media.” ([15:15])
• Scarborough: “The only complaints I've heard about Biden internally was that he was angry.” ([72:17])

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Halperin and Scarborough acknowledging their shared concerns about President Biden while highlighting their differing interpretations of media responsibility and Biden’s cognitive abilities. The conversation underscores the complexity of political narratives and the critical role of media in shaping public perception.

Final Thoughts:

• Shared Accountability: Both hosts agree that there needs to be greater media accountability in reporting on political figures’ personal and cognitive issues.

• Nuanced Perspectives: The discussion exemplifies the importance of nuanced, data-driven conversations in political discourse, moving beyond polarized narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• Halperin: “I am not an enemy of Joe Biden. I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump. I'm a supporter of a credible, strong, aggressive press corps that reports without fear or favor the truth.” ([16:23])
• Scarborough: “You are not lusting for access to any president you've ever covered.” ([53:44])

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This episode offers a thoughtful examination of Joe Biden's presidency, the Bidens' integrity, and the media's role in political narratives. By presenting both Halperin's critical perspective and Scarborough's counterpoints, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the ongoing debates surrounding Biden's leadership and media portrayal.

Transcript

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[Mark Halperin]

Thank you for coming back everybody. For more next up, I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief of Two Way. Very glad to have you here and very excited about our conversation today. One of my close friends, Joe Scarborough and I, who have known each other a long time and talk regularly. People who work in politics and in media are regularly surrounded by people in their lives who they talk to on a regular basis. Joe and I talk and communicate quite a bit and we talk about sports, we talk about music, we talk about our families, we talk about all sorts of stuff. But one topic that we've talked about now for seven or eight years is Joe Biden and his the status of his mental acuity. And we have honest conversations about it. We're not dogmatic. We don't say it's Weekend at Bernie's and Barack Obama was secretly running the government. And we don't say that everything's fine with Joe Biden. What we do is agree or disagree by following the data. And I'm super excited for you to be able to hear the kind of conversation that Joe and I have regularly. Normally it's not on video and audio recorded, so I'm looking forward to sharing that with you. Looking forward for you to hear the kind of conversation Joe and I have had. And and it's on a topic that is very timely right now because of course, although Donald Trump is President, Joe Biden this week again is very much in the news. I'll say again, for Democrats and the media to have the credibility to hold Donald Trump accountable, there has to be A reckoning about what's happened and the through line is the question of how Joe Biden has been covered. I will continue to aggressively cover Donald Trump and his administration and I'll continue to say what is obviously the case, which is Donald Trump frequently does not tell the truth. I think the reason why the table needs to be set here is because I think one of the biggest mistakes, maybe the biggest through line of all for the way Bidens have been covered is the Bidens, it is regularly said, are good family. They're decent people. And I'm not here to tell you they're worse than the Trumps or worse than Nixon. But I'm here to tell you that the mythology that the Bidens are good people who don't lie is not borne out by the facts. And that's increasingly front and center in sharp relief this week. We know that they didn't tell the truth about Biden Inc. We know that. We know the president in the debate in 2020 against Donald Trump did not tell the truth when asked about Hunter's business. I'm not here to sit in moral judgment of them. I'm not here again to tell you that Joe Biden is a bigger liar by some metrics than Donald Trump. What I am here to tell you again is this has been a horrible mistake on the part of the media to treat the Bidens like they walk on water. Four strands right now put in sharp relief this issue. First, the release last Friday of the audio tape of Joe Biden's conversations with special counsel her regarding the question, the issue of whether he took improperly took classified material out of the White House. That audio was blocked from release by the Biden White House. They made up reasons why they blocked it, but the reason that they blocked it was because it would be have been politically devastating had it been released when he was still trying to run for president. The second strand is all these questions about his mental acuity tied to the new book out today by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson related to the degree to which Joe Biden declined and the degree to which people around Joe Biden covered it up. Now, I've said before, I don't think the book actually delivers on the question of who covered up what. They hint at it, but I don't think they fully deliver on it. But there's no doubt that they are saying belatedly in the case of Jake Tapper, less belatedly in the case of Alex Thompson, what was obvious to all, and I'll talk about that then we've got the diagnosis announced conveniently by the Bidens. Feel horrible for the president's family to go through another case of cancer after they lost Beau to cancer. But the question of the timing, which even Biden loyalists have said to me doesn't make sense to say that the president was suddenly diagnosed on Friday and announced halfway through the release, from the time that her tapes were released until the release of the book. So we'll talk about that. The last strand is how Democrats in the media are grappling with their role in trying to stop Donald Trump from getting elected president by covering up and refusing to report honestly on Joe Biden's decline. So we're going to talk about all that. I'll talk about that with Joe. But I want to set the table by talking again about some of my experiences and how I have thought about Joe Biden's mental decline over the course of covering him. I've known him for a long time, our father, he was good friends with my father, colleagues with my father. I covered his presidential campaign in 2008, spent a lot of time around him when he was a senator and then some time around him when he was vice president and had a pretty good relationship with his son. Beau spent some time with him. The Bidens are big liars. You know, you can deny it, you can say, oh, they're such good people, but the press has assumed for years that the Bidens were somehow different, that Joe Biden was a good man, in the words of George W. Bush. And again, you just look at the way they, they covered up Biden Inc. The way he's dealt with his, the way they dealt with his cover up of his mental decline. I'm not saying they're worse than others, but I'm saying the press has made a mistake in covering them like they're the same. I've talked here and elsewhere before about how I saw Joe Biden at a book event in 2017 on the island of Nantucket, where he spoke to several hundred people with a friendly interviewer. And he was exactly the way he was later in his presidency, glassy eyed, trailing off thoughts, losing the train of thought of the conversation, speaking kind of too long and off topic. And I said after that event, again, I've told you this before, thank goodness he's out of public life. Thank goodness he'll never have to run for anything again. And yet, of course, he did. He ran for president twice after that, in 2021, after he got elected president, early in his administration, he gave a press conference and during the press conference, I had an email exchange with a prominent Democrat, someone who'd served in senior positions in the Democratic Party, about what was going on in the press conference. And the other person initiated the email exchange and he said, isn't it great to have a president who's so on top of it, who can speak so fluidly after Donald Trump? And there's no doubt if you watch the whole press conference in 21 in the spring, there's no doubt that Joe Biden looks much more with it than he would look just a few years later in the presidency. But I want to show you a portion of this press conference. This is 102. Watch Joe Biden reading.

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[Mark Halperin]

Now, presidents use notes, presidents use teleprompter. But unlike the person I was emailing with who was so favorably disposed towards Biden's performance, I was struck by the fact that he was reading a script on a topic that he had worked on for decades. And so I'm going to read to you the parts of the email that I wrote to this person and our exchange back and forth, because it gives you into a window of how I saw Joe Biden and his presidency and his mental acuity in March of 2021. This is I'm reading my own email here. His mental decline is pronounced troubling and in danger of accelerating in a hurry. It is a tough situation for his family and the country, but his widespread attempt to deny that it exists freaks some of us out. When he has naps and long overnight sleep and notes, he can make or fake his way through meetings and interviews, which is great. It means that he is often performing well enough to be president. But even his worst moments, they're scary and cautionary. Can they have him rest his way through the ability to do the job for four years? Based on my anecdotal experience, they cannot. When someday someone reveals the extraordinary stage managing of his daily life and public schedule that Jill has Done for three years. You will send me an email and express your amazement that. One, I knew. Two, no one leaked this. Three, no one reported it for they let Joe run. Until then, let's hope for the best for America. Now, I live in New York City and I'm a reporter. And I've been a reporter for a long time. I have plenty of sources. But I'm not the only reporter who could have and should have seen this and had it inform the way they covered the Joe Biden presidency and Joe Biden. I said things like this publicly. Don't think I only was putting in a private email. But it's extraordinary how far from that point of view, based on reporting, not hostility to Joe Biden, not rumors, how far that reporting, how far other people's reporting on Joe Biden was from that point of view, that informed point of view about what was happening. And what I lay out in the email is exactly what happened and is now being belatedly reported by others. Huge failure on the part of the media. And the tragedy of it is most reporters who covered the White House for places like the Washington Post, the New York Times, knew almost everything I had in that email. Maybe not in 2021, but sitting in the White House, they saw it every day. And yet through some combination of being intimidated by the Biden aides who threatened people who said things like that in public, and a desire to help Donald Trump lose the election to make sure Biden won, they didn't say these things. It did not inform their coverage. Okay, it did inform the coverage of people in conservative media who were mocked and derided as being part of some machine to destroy Joe Biden. I'm going to give you one example. Greg Kelly, who's a friend of mine, anchor at Newsmax, Greg reported this early on regularly. And if you go back and watch the totality of Greg's coverage, was he occasionally a little bit over the top? Did he occasionally overstate the degree of Joe Biden's mental decline? Without a doubt. But look at some of what Greg reported over a long period of time here. This is number 108.

[Greg Kelly]

We have all been watching this, and anybody could see that Joe's in decline. There's no denying that Joe has serious, serious issues. Right now, the people are actually noticing Joe Biden's lack of competence. Take a look at this poll. This is from the people and CBS News. Actually, Biden's actions as President viewed as incompetent. 51%. Take a look at this headline. It goes a little Bit further in description. CBS poll, majority of Americans no longer believe Biden is competent. You know who else should quit now? The ultimate him. He's not going to be the Democrat nominee, I can tell you that. I know for sure the Democrat nominee will not be Joe.

[Mark Halperin]

Greg's my friend. A lot of people mocked Greg for that coverage and he's not the only one in conservative media who did it. It shouldn't have taken conservative media, it shouldn't have been confined to conservative media to say the kind of things Greg was saying both from someone who's an analyst or a commentator, but also from the press. Now we all know that there was this turning point when the debate happened and people said it's shocking. They were shocked by what happened in the debate. I do not understand that point of view. I do not understand how anyone who has C SPAN could be shocked. Let me give you some examples of why the debate should not have been a revelation. Show you some stuff from the debate and then I'm going to show you some stuff from earlier than the debate. So here's 106A. This is Joe Biden and debate and I'm focusing here on the things that people commented on that shocked them. Look at Joe Biden glassy eyed while he listens.

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[Mark Halperin]

Okay, horrible to see. If you're listening on the audio, Joe Biden glassy eyed. You've all seen it. Here's Joe Biden in 2023.

[Joe Scarborough]

This is Morgan Sherwin.

[Mark Halperin]

This is Morgan Sherwin and Sam again, if you're listening to the audio only on the podcast version of this program, you're seeing Joe Biden look glassy eyed. Same, same thing, same troubling look. Don't know what's causing it, but it's troubling to see that in the president United States. Okay, trailing off. That's another thing people saw in the debate and were troubled by claim to be surprised by here from the debate. 106C. Joe Biden trailing off.

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[Mark Halperin]

Look, okay, troubling, yes. Surprising, no. Could show you a thousand examples. Here's Joe Biden trailing off before the debate into 2023.

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[Mark Halperin]

Okay, last one. Saying the wrong thing using the wrong word. Here's Joe Biden troubling saying the wrong word in the debate. 106e please.

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[Mark Halperin]

Okay, here's Joe Biden in a pre debate saying the wrong thing. 106F and now I want to hand.

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[Mark Halperin]

Okay, again, we all say the wrong things. Those are the three. I looked at a lot of the debate coverage after the debate talked to look back at my notes of what Democrats said troubled them. Glassy eyed, trailing off saying the wrong word. It all happened. It was all on display before the debate. I don't understand how anybody could say the debate surprised them. Now some people say, well it was surprising that he did so poorly in such a high profile. High profile moment maybe, but it shouldn't be surprised that he exhibited those behaviors. It was at night. He had, he had foolishly had an exhausting schedule leading up to the debate. I don't understand it. I don't understand. And this goes back to my, my thought when people ask Democrats, to this day reporters ask Democrats on tv what did you see in private? Didn't you see in private Joe Biden's decline? You didn't need to see it in private. There are vivid examples of in private and they're interesting for the historical record and they speak to perhaps the culpability of Biden aides and Democratic officials who saw it in private and didn't do anything. But you didn't need to see it in private. So now we have the her audio of President Biden's long session with the special counsel, looking into his background. And again, those of you who've heard it know it's deeply troubling to listen to him try to answer basic questions with his lawyers having to constantly step in to help him with the facts.

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[Mark Halperin]

2016.

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[Mark Halperin]

That's when you left office.

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January 2017. Okay.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay. So now comes the question of the president's cancer diagnosis. I'll say again, I feel horrible for the family. I watched them deal with Beau. I attended Beau's funeral and I saw how torn apart the family was, as any family would be. But to announce that the President has this late stage cancer with no access, as was true during the presidency, to his doctor, no information about what led up to this, it defies belief. Two things defy belief, truly. One is that he reached this late stage without ever getting a PSA or other test to try to detect this. The President, United States gets the best healthcare in the world. Did he get a PSA test while he was present? Was never in any of the reports they issued after his physicals. So one is most experts in this field say the President would have known, would have been diagnosed with this long before Friday of last week. And then second, that this happened exactly at the time when the Bidens are looking to change the subject to engender sympathy for Joe Biden. With the release of the her audio and with the new book what they should do for themselves and for the country and for the public health education of Americans who need more information about prostate cancer. They should make the doctor available. They should put out the full history of Joe Biden being tested for cancer and particularly for this kind of cancer. I don't think they will because that's not the Biden style. But we need to understand, as if you're in the media or the Democratic Party or you're a citizen, what just happened and what's happening now, because what just happened is four to seven years, depending on how you count it, of a cover up and of a family that put their own ambition and their own belief that they were the only ones who could stop Donald Trump ahead of the reality, the reality of Hunter's addiction, the reality of Joe Biden's age, the reality of Joe Biden's loss of mental acuity, the reality of Biden Inc. They took all of that and they said, nope, we're just going to keep going. And if it had not been for the political magic of Nancy Pelosi, I think he would have kept on and been the nominee of the party and devastated the Democratic Party. Not just allowing Donald Trump to return to the White House. But I agree with those political analysts, including a lot who had Data during the 2024 race, who said he cost them a lot and would have cost them a lot more had he stayed on the ticket. I will say I'm not an enemy of Joe Biden. I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump. I'm a supporter of a credible, strong, aggressive press corps that reports without fear or favorite the truth about everyone in power and holds all powerful interests accountable. And what we're continuing to see this week with the relatively soft coverage, incredulous coverage of the her audio of the, of the cancer announcement and of the, of the situation, the storylines around the COVID up, what we're seeing continues to be a Democratic Party and an establishment press corps that pretends their hands are clean, that pretends that they didn't have access the same information I had access to to see clear and Greg Kelly had access to to see so clearly what was happening. And it wasn't just a question of Donald Trump going back to the White House. We had a commander in Chief who In 2017 I looked at with sadness that he couldn't get through a book interview with a friendly interviewer. That was the commander in chief. Now again, Joe and I will discuss this. He had good moments and bad moments and I do not believe other people were making decisions in the White House. I see no evidence of that. It could be true, but I see no evidence of it. But what I do see evidence of is a press corps and a Democratic Party that believes it can somehow restore its credibility from very low levels without listening to the story that I'm telling you and acknowledging their role in a failure of epic proportions, particularly by the press. All right. Take a little bit of a break and then my conversation with Joe Scarborough is next up.

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[Joe Scarborough]

Next up, me and Joe Scarborough. Joe and I have had a long con many years about lots of things, including about Joe Biden and about Joe Biden's connection to politics, his, his mental situation. Often we agree and sometimes we disagree. So with us now from undisclosed location, my friend Joe. Joe, welcome.

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[Mark Halperin]

Thank you, sir.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right. I'm going to put out some premises about where I think we, we agree or what we have in common. And you, you annotate. First of all, the reason why I'm so excited about this conversation and the reason why I tell people this is unlike any conversation they've heard about a topic discussed ad nauseam for nearly a decade is because I think you and I are in an unusual, if not unique position. First of all, we both know Joe Biden pretty well and we've known him for a long period of time. So we're not dealing with a two dimensional figure when we talk about him. We're dealing with someone we've spoken to. Right?

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[Joe Scarborough]

All right. Number two, we both believe that Joe Biden to this day has good days and bad days. And so the right wing caricature that says he's weakened at Bernie's not in charge of the government when he was president is not true. And you know, from the State of the Union address he gave, but the left wing defense said, oh, he's perfectly fine, also not true. Then we're open to data on this, correct?

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

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Yeah, correct. And I'd love to get into that. I'd love to get in that a little bit more after you go through these initial bullet points only only because certain skills lend themselves to governing, certain skills still lend themselves to politics and running for president. And yeah, there's a strong dividing line there on what he was capable of and not capable of.

[Joe Scarborough]

We both want to get at the truth. Neither of us has a dog in the hunt where we say, oh no, I don't want data that conflicts with my view that Biden, Biden can't think. Or Biden is perfect. Right, right.

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And, and just so people know as you're going through, through all this, this is literally something that we have talked about, I think every day since 2019, when one day I would express more concern, one day you would express more concern. And an ongoing debate going into 2020. Is he really going to run? Going all the way back and throughout 2022, 23, 24. Yeah, it is. Just so, so when you say we've talked about this, this isn't like once every three weeks. This has been a running obsession on the state of whether, whether he's going to run, whether he's capable of running.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right. And most people in the media or commentators, you'd look at them and you'd say, well, that person is dug in on the Biden's fine point of view or that person's dug in that Biden is weakened at Bernie's point of view.

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Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

And I can tell everybody from the conversations that you and I have had, we're not in those camps. We're in the let's figure out what's going on school. Right?

[Ad Voiceover]

Yeah, exactly. And, and you're going to play, I'm sure, the Biden at its best clip in a little bit. That came, that came after I spent two and a half, three hours with him. So yeah, so much of it is based on observation. And then of course you see a debate and you're like, well, no, maybe not. So. Yeah, but you're right though. But, but it, it would, it would sort of go back and forth between us over the past five, six years on this.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right now I'm going to tell my story briefly and my narrative starting in 2017 through the present day and then I want to hear yours about how you connected to this question. All right, so 2017, I've told this story before. I saw Joe Biden do a book tour event. He was the moderator was Atul Gawande, a doctor, a very friendly guy. Joe Biden speaking to a big auditorium. And it was a disaster. And it was exactly what we saw later. He was glassy eyed, had trouble following the conversation. I can't find video of that event anywhere on the Internet. I'm a little suspicious about that elsewhere though, on that tour because I went and looked at the book tour again, 2017, he was fine. Again, good days and bad days. But the, but the. But the bad day that I saw and it was an evening event, made me worried and say he's never going to run for anything ever again. He's got a big problem. You didn't see anything till 2019, correct?

[Ad Voiceover]

Yeah. I will say also I think in 2017. Well, I'll tell you, I actually I had. I had talked about Beau's death on. On the show and had. Had talked about that extraordinary speech that Bobby Kennedy gave after the death of Martin Luther King. And he talked about the awful grace of God and I spoke about Beau that way. The awful grace of God, drip by drip until we understand actually the mercy. And he called me then and I thought back on it a good bit. I really do think so if you're talking about 2017 book events. So I think those really good and really bad days certainly accelerated after the death of Beau Biden. And I suspect also Hutter also. This was Mika's operating theory during the campaign. Hutter's conviction and all of those problems also just again had a profound impact on him. I think 2019 was the first time I called you and said, I'm not sure if this guy is going to run. And I think we agreed on that based on some observations.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, we both had direct and indirect experiences with him in 2019 that made us think, boy, it just doesn't seem like he's got the focus to do it because he has some bad days. We also both had the experience that he had plenty of good days. This is an event that got written about by a Wall Street Journal columnist. I wasn't at this event, but once it occurred, I heard from a bunch of people, this is Joe Biden in 2020 as a presidential candidate in South Carolina.

[Lowe's Ad]

My name's Joe Biden. I'm a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate. Look me over if you like what you see. Help out. If not, vote for the other by give me a look though. Okay? That's all I've really got to say to you. I'm to up about. I got 2 minutes and 30 seconds left. I'm looking at the clock down here.

[Joe Scarborough]

So he said he's running for Senate and he said, don't vote for the other Biden. We all know that part of the defense of the pro Biden people was, oh, he's always had malapropisms. He's always speaking in a certain way. But I looked at that tape and other events in that cycle the first time he ran. That's not. That's not the, that's a different brain processing than Joe Biden, you know, diary of the Mouth.

[Ad Voiceover]

I think this may be where we disagree. I mean, Joe Biden's always been Joe Biden. Joe Biden's always said crazy things. You go back to the 1987 campaign. You go back to, you know, you, you go back and you look at what happened in 2007, 2008.

[Joe Scarborough]

But that's speaking in artfully, like when he said Barack Obama was a clean and articulate. That's artful. That's different. I mean, again, you and I both public speaking, we were live all the time, we could make a mistake. But, but you don't look at that video and see the look in his eyes and hear him say, I'm running for Senate vote for the other Biden. You don't see that as I, as I did then and do now as part of the decline. Or do, or do you?

[Ad Voiceover]

I mean, I don't know. Again, I'm not this is the sort of thing, there are a couple of things like this that, you know, we agree on so many things. There are a couple of things that, that we disagree on. And one is, is the congresswoman who had passed away that he mentioned that, that I'm sure we'll be looking at too. Where I look at that as being Joe Biden getting up there, getting flustered and, and you know, he's, he's had in his recording, you know, sort of recording in his brain since he was 19, 20, since he was 29. I'm Joe Biden. I'm running for Senate. And I'd love your vote. I think also Mark and you mentioned this before we've both gotten up and spoke and I, I've unfortunately spent 30 years talking way too much. And you know, there'll be times I, I will, I will say Mitterron, you know, Mitterron and Trump just don't get along. And you know, it'll be like during the break where Alex will get now.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Ad Voiceover]

I say Alex is getting my ear and say it's Macron, not Mitteron. But you just, you just, you, you think that that clip is, this is.

[Joe Scarborough]

Where you make, this is where you make me mental. That, that clip, to me, there's a through line from that clip to the debate in 2024. He's losing it. When he's, when he's having a bad night. He's his, he's not, his brain is not firing. It's not what happens when we say Mitterron instead of coal his brain. That's how I perceive that.

[Ad Voiceover]

Okay, so let me ask you though, because this happens with other politicians. We've seen other politicians do this before and this is not what about ism, but when Donald Trump talked constantly about World War II and when he talked about all the other crazy things he, he talked about during the mixed up.

[Joe Scarborough]

Nancy Pelosi and, and Nancy Pelosi and.

[Ad Voiceover]

Nancy, what's her name or whomever?

[Mark Halperin]

It was Nikki Haley.

[Joe Scarborough]

It was Nikki.

[Ad Voiceover]

Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley, exactly.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Ad Voiceover]

I think they're both from South Carolina. But, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I've seen that a good bit, especially in older politicians. And I think for me the question is, is, you know, does that impact his governing or not? I also, this is a great mystery for me, Mark, and maybe you can help answer this. So you see a through line that through 24, that to me is like bumbling Joe Biden that I've, I've seen for a very long time. But when, when do you think, when did you first notice this decline? Do you trace it back to 2017, that book event?

[Joe Scarborough]

I went to 2017, where I turned to my wife after the event and I said, thank goodness he'll never run for anything again. And how could his, and how could his family let him do this book tour? And again, to me, this is why I get so frustrated. As much as we agree about this, to me it's just obvious through line what I saw in 2017, what I see in that South Carolina bet, what I see when he addresses the dead woman congresswoman from Indiana, which we'll play in a second. I see the through line of the bad days are increasing and the bad days you wouldn't want. It's a CEO or a president having a bad day at a time of crisis. Let's play. You and I have thought about this a million times. 104. Joe Biden @ an event in part honoring a dead congresswoman from Indiana, talks.

[Lowe's Ad]

To her because I believe we can use these advances to do even more, to make America stronger and a healthier nation. And so many of you know so much about this as well, and you're committed to. And I want to thank all of you here for including bipartisan elected officials like Representative, Governor, Senator Braun, Senator Booker, Representative. Jackie, are you here? Where's Jackie? I didn't think she was going to be here to help make this a reality again.

[Joe Scarborough]

You and I have talked about this so much. I know you think I over rely on the example, but that is not Mitterrand or saying Mitterrand instead of coal, that is talking to a dead person who's the event was, was on her behalf. How that and how can that not be like a signature signal moment where the country and the media said there's a big problem.

[Ad Voiceover]

Yeah, I mean, that's a concern. And it was reported on, I'm sure. And so what, what would you, at that point do you pull up the stakes and say, because he did that, get out of the race.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, it's up to him. But it was asked about at the White House briefing and the White House press secretary said the reason Joe Biden talked to a dead congresswoman was because it was top of mind for him. She was top of mind. Again, this is not a joke and it's not about the 2024 election. It's about the commander, the commander in chief. We had no access to his doctor. And, and again, you want to bring up Donald Trump confusing people, it's fine. But right now we're talking about Joe Biden. I just look at that and say, like, if that were my dad, that were my dad in a public role and he started speaking with dead congresswoman, I would, I would take him for some emergency tests. I just don't understand how you look at that and, and have a reaction of, ah, confused.

[Ad Voiceover]

You know, I, I, I, I think, I think that maybe the reason I look at it that way is because again, everything you say, you say, oh, well, don't bring up Donald Trump. That's in context. And what was also going on at the same time, the people whose heads were blowing up about Joe Biden were completely fine with Donald Trump. I think the other thing, though, my personal context on it is that, you know, I don't know exactly when that was, but I'm sure I had talked to him, I'm sure I'd been in the White house. I'm sure 2023. 2023, 2023. I mean, there was an ongoing conversation either with, between myself and the President myself. And, and I think if I had ever had a conversation with him and where I had had that concern, then that would have been far more telling to me. But again, yeah, no doubt that's a bad day at the office. No doubt about it.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, again, I'll say respectfully to me, it's worse than a bad day in an office. It's just, it just, it's just seminal. All right, let's talk about you and your famous argument in 2024, before the debate about saying best Biden ever. This gets a lot of attention. I want to walk through it carefully, set up the context of this. You, you, you mentioned in the, in the, in on your show in this sound bite that you'd met with Biden, but just talk a little bit more about the meeting.

[Ad Voiceover]

Well, and again, it's not just that meeting. I remember writing an op ed in the Washington Post that the wider context.

[Joe Scarborough]

Of your contact with him.

[Ad Voiceover]

Yeah, the wider context. And I remember early on, no, actually was, it wasn't Afghanistan, it was Ukraine. And I wrote a Washington Post op ed that said Joe Biden needs to stop telling Vladimir Putin what he's not going to do. Joe Biden needs to start telling, you know, Vladimir Putin what he is going to do or just keep his mouth shut basically. And went through all the reasons why being overly cautious on the issue of Ukraine was not serving our interests because we, you know, we needed to keep, keep Putin guessing a bit more than that. Got a call late at night. As you know, Mika and I go to sleep pretty early because of our early wake up call. Got a call late at night and there's about a 30, 45 minute pretty one sided discussion from the President of the United States being, being critical but more importantly going in depth as to why he was doing what he was doing and taking me through it. And you know, Mark, you and I have talked to politicians and I think this is a very important point for people that are, that are listening and maybe skeptical but maybe open minded about this. You and I have talked to a lot of politicians and I'm going to be really blunt. Most politicians that call up and lecture me or lecture you about something we've written or said, we sit there and we're very polite but rolling our eyes because you know, they're usually going, yeah, they're talking, they're going, they're doing their talking points. And again, you're in an interesting position. I'm not going to debate a presidential candidate or a politician. When they're calling me up complaining about something that I've done on the air. I go, thank you very much, I appreciate your input. But usually I hang up the phone and meet who's that? And I'll be like, oh, that was fill in the blank. Oh my God. On his talking points. It was pretty embarrassing. I didn't get that with Biden. I, in fact, when I finished talking to Biden on, on, I guess it was 22, late 2010, I hung up the phone And I said to me, I go, he doesn't have dementia. Whoa. Because again, it was, it was not just cogent, it was a better, really analys Analysis of the situation than I'd heard from, from most people. Unless it was, let's say it was Chairman McCall or somebody running. Running a perk.

[Joe Scarborough]

And you're confident, and you're confident if someone heard the audio of that conversation, they would come away with the same conclusion.

[Ad Voiceover]

Oh, my God, Yeah, Anybody, Anybody, Anybody. And then. And then there were other calls. There also is. It's not a secret. Mike Barnacle is a good friend of ours and friend of Joe Biden's and talk to him regularly, you know, probably weekly. I'd always talk to Mike and again, there's no grand conspiracy. I'd say, how's he doing? How's he. How's his energy level? How's his, you know, did he seem coated and he seem off? Because you're reading the reports in the paper and, and again. And there were about five people like that that we were. And I would talk to you about this too. If somebody had a concern, I would call you up and said, hey, I've got. I've got so and so, saw him in the White House and was concerned, so. So that there were a lot of those meetings there. Also, there was again, this two and a half, three hour meeting that I had with him. I think it was March, may have been March of 2024. And we went in, it was supposed to be like an hour lunch, which is not unusual. I've done it with Donald Trump and been in with Barack Obama. We go in, you know, pretty regularly. But when I had him there, I was asking him. I wasn't asking him about the campaign, I was asking him about Ukraine, I was asking about Israel, I was asking about India, which I think was in the news recently. Basically took him around the world. I asked him about, you know, our sort of, our flex in Asia, what was going on in Guam, what was going in Philippines, what was going on with Australia, what was going on, South Korea and Japan talking. And he took me, he really took me around the world. And I will say if you and I lined up 100 Washington politicians, he handled those answers better than 99% of them. Ironically, this would be a surprise to people. Ironically, the one person I talked to in the 2024 cycle who had as impressive a grasp was Ron DeSantis, who for some reason didn't want to show that during the campaign, but Talked to Ron DeSantis several times. On foreign policy. And he was one of these guys that I talked to. I go, wow, okay, so I went away from a three hour meeting with Vigne, talking about everything from, you know, Bill Burns negotiating, you know, in Russia. Is he going to negotiate in Russia? And, and, and talking about the west bank and what he was doing as far as illegal settlements in the west bank, how in relationship with Netanyahu. And I went away from there feeling extraordinarily confident the guy was cogent and, and beyond. Beyond cogent that he actually more than again, except for maybe chairman or chairwomen of, of the relevant committees on Capitol Hill, a better grasp on, on foreign policy than most anybody.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, so here's now what you said in the wake of that meeting. This is 105, please on Morning, Jeff.

[Ad Voiceover]

As I've said here on the show over the past couple weeks, I've spent a good bit of time with Joe Biden. I've spent a couple of hours with Joe Biden sitting, talking, going around the world as far as talking issues, talking, talking inflation. He's cogent, but I undersold him when I said he was cogent. He's far beyond cogent. In fact, I think he's better than he's ever been intellectually, analytically, because he's been around for 50 years. And I don't know if people know this or not. Biden used to be a hothead. Sometimes that Irishman would get in front of the reasoning. Sometimes he would say things he didn't want to say. This is, and I don't really, you know what, I don't really start your tape right now because I'm about to tell you the truth. And f you if you can't handle the truth, this version of Biden intellectually, analytically, is the best Biden ever.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, So a lot to unpack there. You know, unpack there, Mark.

[Ad Voiceover]

You have to explain to everybody, like, that's actually the first time I've seen the clip all the way through. And you were the one like, you know, six months later to alert me to the fact that this had gone viral.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, well, as I told you, and people may not realize you don't pay much attention to social media anymore. You don't pay much attention to criticism. But I told you for several months, I said, joe Biden ever has become the symbol for the right of the media and MSNB having, having so much Trump derangement syndrome that you're claiming that a guy who's clearly lost mental acuity is the best Biden ever. Now, I'll say, I say to people, go watch the State of the Union address. Talk to people who talk to Joe Biden. He had good days and bad days. You were with him on a good day and had conversations with him on a good day.

[Ad Voiceover]

But on good days. On good days.

[Joe Scarborough]

Good days, yeah. Looking, but looking back at that, do you say, well, it was misleading to say best Biden ever without caveating it and say, except on the days when he's not the best Biden?

[Ad Voiceover]

Well, but, but, but I never, I never saw those days personally.

[Joe Scarborough]

You did. You did because you saw him address a dead congresswoman and you saw him in South Carolina.

[Ad Voiceover]

The dead congresswoman. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, more than that. I mean, I can show you, I can show you the RNC clip reels. There were plenty of days in public when he, when he was not the best Biden ever.

[Ad Voiceover]

And of course, shortly after he stumbled and bumbled around. Mark. I mean, yeah, he certainly did. Donald Trump did. Other politicians did. But it's actually the same case as a lot of times when I've gone in and talked to Donald Trump. We go into Donald Trump and I've heard the media narrative around Donald Trump and certainly I've been very critical of Donald Trump. And when I leave, I have a better understanding, just like Jeffrey Goldberg did a couple of weeks ago, I have a better understanding of where Donald Trump is mentally, if Donald Trump is losing it, like people have said through the years or not. And so again, am I going to look at a clip that's gone viral and pay more attention to that than two and a half, three hours I had with a guy one on one going around the world? No, I'm just not going to. Are some of the clips bad? Yeah, they certainly, they certainly are bad. I can understand why people would see that without the context and, and say, say that there was a problem with, especially because I said, start rolling your tape right here. You know, it's like, but, but, you know, when I look at that tape, based on what I saw with Biden, based on the time that I spent with Biden, based on the hundreds of hours that I talked about to people who talk to Biden and people that worked with Biden and were with him day in and day out, good friends that I know that I trusted before Biden was president, that I trust now that Biden's not president, I mean, put in the proper context, I'm just not going to freak out and melt down on one or two clips here or there. And again, he bumbled around and he stumbled around, but he has for quite some time. That didn't seem to me to get in the way of, of Joe Biden being able to analyze the most important issues. And I certainly think he has, has a better grasp on it than, than probably the overwhelming majority of his critics or certainly did when I spoke with him. But again, the question is, you know, who is somebody else running the government for him? Is he incapable of running meetings?

[Joe Scarborough]

I've never talked, I've never talked to.

[Ad Voiceover]

Anybody that is said Joe Biden's not capable of running meetings. The complaint that I've heard, not only from, and I hope people are still listening to me because it is important. The only complaints I've heard about Biden internally was that he was angry. He would often get angry and that it was basically his way or the highway. He would listen to other people. But the Afghanistan issue is a perfect example. He had everybody from Mark Milley, every general, every, everybody saying, don't get out of Afghanistan. But, you know, it was, I think at times it would have been good for him to, to yield a little bit more to some of his advisors than he did. That's one thing. The second thing is, again, this is multilayered. You know, I talked to, I talked to a good friend that I had in, in the French delegation when they had tough negotiations. I think it was right after the state dinner, the French state dinner, before the state dinner. And they said they were all surprised. They brought five or six points and not only was Biden on top of his game, they thought a bit aggressive. So again, put into context, and I'm curious, let me ask you, do you think that Joe Biden, day to day, was incapable of running the government?

[Joe Scarborough]

I think he had good moments and bad moments. And at his bad moments, no one would want him to be commander in chief or to make decisions. But they, his team was very skilled at having him make decisions during good moments. And I think he had plenty of good moments, including with you. But, but this is what, this is why I'm offering you extent to revise and extend your best buy never remarks which right now are, you know, cited more than anything else, which is.

[Ad Voiceover]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

You could say when I was with him, he was as good as he's been. He was better than other, you know, politicians. But he wasn't doing press conferences. He wasn't doing serious interviews. No, he was, he had moments in public which I could show you many of, where clearly he was having bad moments. Worse than Joe Biden. Pre2017. So do you want to, do you want to revise, revise and extend anything in that clip to say when I saw him, best Biden ever? As opposed to suggesting you were impervious to all the other data, suggesting?

[Ad Voiceover]

No, no, I'm not impervious to all the other data. Just as you aren't impervious to all other data. As you said off the top, we, we don't, I don't think either of us land where the, the toughest Biden critics land saying that the guy was a drooling idiot and was incapable of running the country. We also don't and have never agreed that the guy was, was, was perfect and that, that he didn't have better days and, and worse days. So.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, I, I, I, do you cringe watching that clip?

[Ad Voiceover]

No, I don't at all. I, I'm sorry, I, I, I, I, I, I guess I should, but I see I haven't, I haven't seen the meme for the past year or so. I, I, I, When I, when I see that clip, I see again, again I see myself doing what any reporter would do, doing what any news host would do. You go into the White House and you talk to the President of the United States for two and a half, three hours and you're talking hard policy. You're not talking about things, football or, or, you know, whatever else. You're talking policy.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right.

[Ad Voiceover]

And the, and, and the guy, no, hold on. The guy, again, the guy handled himself better than, than again. I, I would guess 99% of those that are criticizing him right now would, would have and, and certainly in March of 2024. And so I see that, I mean, do, do I, I mean, I guess my, my revising and extending of those remarks came the morning after the debate when I was the first person to say he needed to get out of the race.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right. All right, hold on. I want to get to the debate in a second, but I just want to clean up two things that you mentioned that I know from you, that I think people misunderstand about you regarding the White House and Joe Biden, the President's general one is people tell me, oh, Joe went to Mar A Lago to see Trump because he loves access. He went to the White House to see Biden, he loves access, that you, you crave the access to presidents and therefore you're soft on presidents in general.

[Ad Voiceover]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

What's your, what's your response to that?

[Ad Voiceover]

Well, what's your response to that?

[Joe Scarborough]

You know me, you don't need the Access. You. You do it because it's important for your job, but. But you'd be happy staying home. I know. It's almost everyone we know craves access to presidents more than you do. Right? It's the exact opposite, in my experience of what people say.

[Ad Voiceover]

It's the exact opposite fucking opposite. Which is what's so funny. When I see people either projecting or confessing, oh, Joe did this because he wants access, or, oh, Joe did this because he's a defender. They're actually. That's confession. When the White House called me and you know this, and Mika knows this, when the White House calls me and says, the President would like you to come up and talk to him on such and such a date, I'm like.

[Joe Scarborough]

That'S what you say. And you mean.

[Ad Voiceover]

I do. I do. And I mean, I'm like, this means I'm going to have to leave my kids. Means I'm going to have to get on a plane. This means I'm going to have to go to Washington. This means I'm going to have to sit there and put up with the bullshit of getting in to see the President. Means I'm going to have to comment, hey, Mr. President, such a great honor. And then I'm going to have to sit there and listen. I'm not. You know, it's so funny. You and I both get raked over the coals in 2016 after Donald Trump got elected. And we talked to Donald Trump, and I had the shittiest little. Well, you had columns written about you. But I have these shitty little articles written by people in the Washington Post again. And they would call me up and they would go, it must be really amazing to. To. To have a guy that's president that is talking to you. I like, that's happened since I was 31 years old. Well, it must be amazing to go in the White House. That happened since I was 31. Well, Mika must love it. I said, mika's been going to the White House since she was nine. I mean, listen, there is no doubt there are things that excite me. There are things that make me sweat nervously. There are things that I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this. But those things would be meeting Paul McCartney. Those things. I'm serious. I won't mention his name, but I met a guy that I've seen in movies and some of my favorite series. Really nice guy who's really nice to me. I started sweating. I get nervous, which is funny. There are things like athletes. If I meet Athletes that I really look up to and respect. I will sit and go, oh, my God. And then residents, presidents, no. And so people that are going, joe wants the access. They're only saying that because they want the access. I don't need the access. I get paid to say what I think, whether they like it or not. Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

And I'll say, I'll say, because we're both Beatles fans, you never have said you're bigger than Jesus. But the reality is your show, since the show's been on for many, many years, makes you in some ways bigger than the present. You don't need to say that. I can say it. The presidents want to see you. You're happy to see them because it's part of your job. But you are not lusting for access to any president you've ever covered. And the second thing I want to, I want, I want to dispel is this notion that you're a Biden defender, that you're, that you're saying, best Biden ever or your coverage of Biden in, in this presidential cycle was a manifestation of your desire to defend him. How would you address that?

[Ad Voiceover]

I just, again, I'm not on prime time on any cable news network. People tune into my show to hear what I think, and if I get it right more than I get it wrong, then I do well and I get my contract renewed. Need to. I've never, you know, and I don't, I don't say this with any, any animosity in my heart, and I don't judge them for feeling this way, but George W. Bush, I had a good friend who was the governor inviting me to an event in a state, and the Bush team said, your state's not big enough for George W. Bush and Joe Scarborough to be in other things. I pep for that. I really admire George W. Bush. About, tried to interview him on things. Doesn't like me. I'm totally fine. Fine with that. I understand. I mean, the president, he's a tough job. And having some guy, you know, shooting his mouth off for three or four hours every day about what you do, I can understand how that would get, get under people's skin. Just like, you know, guys up in a. A booth, you know, talking about some of the greatest athletes and the mistakes they're making. So. Same thing with Barack Obama. Same thing with Donald Trump, though my relationship with President Trump's been a bit more up and down through the years.

[Joe Scarborough]

And you're not a defender. That's the point.

[Ad Voiceover]

I've got to say. The same thing with Joe Biden. If I wanted to be a defender of Joe Biden, I would remain a defender of Joe Biden. I haven't talked to Joe Biden since I said he needed to get out of the race. It was. But again, me defending, I understand some people in some media spheres need to defend the party, need to defend the flag, need to defend whatever they need to defend. You know, I just have no need because. Because that's not why I get paid. I get paid for speaking my mind. And if people say, oh, well, why didn't you attack Biden more? I did on Afghanistan. I did on the southern border. I did on. On, you know, the. The pin swimmer. I did on, you know, all of these other things. It's just like, I am really blessed. When I got elected to Congress at a very young age, I got elected despite the fact that Newt Gingrich and the Republican Party campaigned hard against me. And they did that because they thought I was too conservative to get elected in my district. I won, and it liberated me. So the rest of my camp and the rest of my political career, I got to say whatever I wanted to say without any fear of blowback. And it's the same thing that's happened at msnbc, despite the fact, obviously prime time is progressive. I've gotten to say whatever I've wanted to say. Phil Griffin called me up one day, the first week I was On Morning Joe, 18 years ago, and had a suggestion, and I said, I love you, Phil, but you want to do the show, you can do the show, but I'm here for three hours, so I'm going to do it the way I want to do it.

[Joe Scarborough]

Phil ran msnbc. All right, let's get back to the issue of Brian's acuity. I contend that anyone who is surprised by the debate performance, anyone for whom Biden's debate performance altered their view, wasn't paying attention. What happened in the debate that caused you to alter your view?

[Ad Voiceover]

Everybody I know that knew Biden, that talked to Biden regularly was shocked. Now, there's a big asterisk here. There's a big caveat here. So I had a ton of contacts in Biden world, but I wasn't on the inner, inner circle. I wasn't, you know, I didn't talk to Jill Biden, I didn't talk to Steve Rochetti, I didn't talk to Mike Donlin, and I didn't talk to Annie Thomasini. And those were the four people that were the innermost sanctum. Didn't talk to them. I spent a lot of time talking to the chief of staff and talking to Anita Dunn, talking to John Meacham, talking to other people around the president. And I would tell you in real time, Mike Barnacle, John Meacham. I called John Meacham actually five minutes before the debate and I said, what are you hearing? How's he doing? He goes, well, the old man sounding good. His voice is a little hoarse, but he's sounding okay. And that was five minutes before I called him. Five minutes after, I was like, john, what in the world? And same with Barnacle and everybody else. So again, I don't know that they weren't paying attention. That's your take. I think people that were close to him, that saw him day in and day out, night in and night out, were shot. That doesn't speak to the inner in that inner, inner circle. I don't know. Maybe Donlan Rachetti and Jill Biden saw something the rest of us didn't see day in and day out.

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[Mark Halperin]

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[Joe Scarborough]

What were the things the White House did to shield coverage of his decline that you would point to to say that wasn't right what they did?

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I think the biggest mistake they made was sort of the first mistake which was and something that Mike Barnacle was saying from the first days of the administration, which was their they're blocking him in there. They need to let him get out, they need to let him talk more. They need to stop protecting him so much. There was was real concern among many people that knew Biden that Ron Klain ran too tight of a ship, that, that Joe Biden needed to get out there. He needed if he stumbled and he bumbled, if he made mistakes on the campaign trail as Donald Trump has, as George W. Bush did, as the first Bush did. And I'm not comparing all of their mental acuity. I'm just saying you get the American people used to it and then they can decide it's kind of like Donald Trump where Americans under understood going into the the election that there were many things about Donald Trump that they may not have liked, but they discounted those things because they saw him enough that they knew him. I think, I think the biggest mistake is that they didn't let Biden out and, and, and let him hold press conferences, let him make those mistakes, have him stumble through it. If he had to stumble through it so the American people could decide, okay, what I eventually came to and what this conversation's been about where they said, okay, yeah, he stumbles, he looks glassy eyed, but I like his position here or I like his position there. He really seems to know what he's talking about when he's talking about Ukraine, et cetera, et cetera. But they didn't do that. And I think one of the biggest tells that they really didn't trust him to get out and say things is when he didn't do the super bowl interview, which was again, deeply concerning. And the feeling again among people that Knew Biden for 20, 30, 40 years was there was a mistake on the White House's part. They should have had him do it. If he screwed up, he screwed up.

[Joe Scarborough]

This is where you and I couldn't disagree more. If they had put him out more, he would have destroyed his reputation. Maybe it would have been good for the party because he would have been off the ticket sooner, but if he'd gone out more, it would have been disaster. They did not let him do interviews.

[Ad Voiceover]

Let me ask you this question. How do you, how, and, and this is, this is not a, this is not a leading question or rhetorical question.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes.

[Ad Voiceover]

How do you know this? And I doubt that if they put.

[Joe Scarborough]

Him out more, he would have screwed up.

[Ad Voiceover]

You said, you said if they put him out more, it would have been a disaster. How do you know, know that and I don't?

[Mark Halperin]

Based on what sources?

[Joe Scarborough]

I base it, I base it on three things. I base it, number one, on the fact that they didn't put him out and he wanted to be out and he's the president, so if he really, if he, if he really wanted to be out and, and, and he had a good case to be at more, he would have been number two. I spoke to many members of Congress and, and donors and, and advisers who spent time with him, who saw in private what was on offer in public, too, but saw in circumstances where he was, he was, he was exhibiting signs of mental decline. That, that made them understand why they didn't put him out. And, and there's no ambiguity and these are vivid descriptions of it. And finally, when they did put him out and, and, and make no mistake, they knew what the stakes of the debate were, were they knew and he could not rise to that occasion. You know, he couldn't. And, and, and he, he failed cataclysmically. But that failure to me was not the least bit surprising because he couldn't do a, an interview with the New York Times or the Washington Post, first president in memory not to do those things. He couldn't hold regular press conferences. He couldn't have events, you know, like, with a rigorous schedule. These are things that, if you look at why they did the debate, they did the debate because they needed something to turn the dynamic around. The alternative was go campaign, do five events a day, do an interview and explain yourself. He couldn't do those Things because if he could have, he would have. He was not blocked by the staff, he was blocked by reality. That's how I know. Okay, well you must have talked to donors, as I did, who were stunned that he showed up in their house with a teleprompter and a Park avenue fundraiser for 15 people and had couldn't make small talk with people he'd known for 50 years.

[Ad Voiceover]

I, I actually, I thought, I thought it was, I thought it was interesting that Olivia Newsies last article where she got attacked for trying to help RFK Jr actually was the first thing that I had read that actually lined up with some things that I had heard from Downers that he was particularly bad at night at fundraisers after a very long day. That at that point he was, he was just completely exhausted and just mentally, mentally burned out. Samsung, I brought that up to somebody that worked with him throughout the campaign and they said, well, I'd rather have him at 8 o' clock at night than 8 o' clock in the morning. So.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Ad Voiceover]

Again though, but I will just say, just generally though, yeah, if you can't hold the press conferences, if you can't do all those other things, then yeah, you can't be President United States. And if you're saying they didn't put him out there because he was incapable of being out there, well, I mean, I don't know what to say to that other than when I, again, you.

[Joe Scarborough]

Brought, you brought up. The best example is the Super Bowl. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I bet you super bowl interview.

[Ad Voiceover]

I think, I think, I think again, I, I might, I would definitely be speaking with you for, from a different vantage point. If the times I had seen him were, you know, if, if there was, there was bumbling, stumbling, halting Joe Biden. I mean he's old, he was slow, he walked stiffly, he moved very slowly. But I just never saw any of that personally. And I suspect that if you had spent the time that I spent with him and had the interactions that I had with him, you probably wouldn't be asking these questions right now, which are all very good questions. And I think other people would feel the same way. And so one of the reasons why I have the question of why didn't they let him out more was because when I talked to him, I walked away thinking, okay, well, good days, good.

[Joe Scarborough]

Days and bad days. Two more topics if we can. First, what's your critique of how the New York Times, The Washington Post, etc. NBC News covered Joe Biden's loss of mental acuity Did. Did they do a great job? A horrible job? What's your critique?

[Ad Voiceover]

I mean, I don't know. I. I think. I think the. The idea that there's some, like, grand conspiracy among the media which people have said to hide Joe Biden's mental decline, sort of laughable because I, I know people that write for the New York Times and the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, and they're all hyper competitive. I see people competing with each other, and I don't know that well. I don't believe there is a conspiracy among those mainstream media outlets that you talk about, New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, et cetera, to do that. I will say, and I would love for you to talk about this in June. I think it was. I think I read Today, it was June 4, 2024. The Wall Street Journal tried to blow the lid off of this story. And in fact, the Wall Street Journal editorial page wrote about it, I think this morning. They tried to blow the lid off of this story, and they came up with a story where their best Source was Kevin McCarthy mischaracterizing a meeting that he had in the White House with Joe Biden on the day that he walked out of the White House saying basically that was Biden at his best. I want to talk to Joe Biden every day, et cetera, et cetera. But I want to underline this point, because this is, again, this is the bullshit. This is sort of the reframing of history, right? It's kind of like everybody was against the Iraq war after the Iraq war went south. You go back and you look and you see more people voting for the Iraq war, the second Iraq war, than they voted for the first Iraq war. Everybody's not going to go, oh, the Wall Street Journal had it right and everybody else had it wrong. Mark, you and I read the Wall Street Journal. Who. And by the way, I love the editor. I think what she's doing, what Emmett Tucker is doing at the Wall Street Journal is extraordinary. And I told her as much. But it was also, I read that article, I was like, what's this article about? They're quoting. The best quotes they have are from Kevin McCarthy, who actually contradicting himself, and then Mike Johnson's staff. So I think when people. I bring that up, because when people talk about this media conspiracy, In June of 2024, the Wall Street Journal tried.

[Joe Scarborough]

To get the story and failed.

[Ad Voiceover]

And they came up shortly.

[Mark Halperin]

Failed. Okay.

[Ad Voiceover]

Were they right? Okay, yeah, they were right. They were right for the wrong reason, though, because I Mean, if you could share your thoughts about that story, I.

[Joe Scarborough]

Agree they did better than most. But that story was so far away from revealing the truth that it's misleading. When people say, oh, the Wall Street Journal, they were heroes for getting it done, they really came up short. I mean, I wouldn't have published that story as they published it.

[Ad Voiceover]

Well, and when I read it, I wasn't critical of the reporters. No, I was, I was, I was wondering why the editors allowed that story to go out. Because it was, again, the conclusion was right. The reporting was. And the sources, let me say the sources, not the reporting. Yeah, the sources were, were, were terrible. And that again, they contradicted things they had said on video in real time when, when they, when they were coming out of their White House meetings talking about how Joe Biden was, you know, in command and, and they were going to talk to him every day because he really knew what he was talking about. And again, that's why I think, again, this sort of selective amnesia is, is, again, it does remind me a lot of the Iraq war and the selective amnesia after things went badly, badly there. I mean, yeah, there are many clips of Joe Biden stumbling around and looking, looking like he's completely out of it. No doubt about it. I'm only talking about what I saw with my eyes. I'm only talking about what I did on my reporting. And that's the conclusions I came to.

[Joe Scarborough]

You and I agree he had good days and bad days. You and I agree the critics on both sides overstated the case. And we disagree on whether the things he did in public before the debate were dispositive in saying he had too many bad days to be able to continue. That's where we disagree. Joe, very grateful that you are best Joe ever or best Scarborough.

[Ad Voiceover]

I am best Joe ever.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah.

[Ad Voiceover]

Even. Even though I'm stumbling around because I'm a little, little exhausted.

[Mark Halperin]

Yes.

[Joe Scarborough]

Very grateful to you. Thank you for the conversation.

[Ad Voiceover]

All right. Thank you so much.

[Joe Scarborough]

Thank you, sir. All right, that's it for next up. Thank you for watching Next episode. We have two great guests. Megan Kelly will be here and Tom Cotton, the gentleman from Arkansas. We will see you then on Next up.

[Ad Voiceover]

It.