Podcast
No BS Bureaucracy
Hosted by Mark Wheeler and Mike Sarasti · EN
Welcome to "No BS Bureaucracy," your entertaining guide to local government technology and policy. Hosted by Mike Sarasti and Mark Wheeler, two former big-city CIOs who are anything but typical tech guys, this podcast ditches dry formalities for real talk about what works versus what’s just hype. Mike and Mark break it down with a blend of hard-earned wisdom and humor that’s more John Oliver than a civics teacher who’s given up caffeine.
Mike, Miami’s first Chief Innovation Officer, and Mark, Philly’s first Chief Geographic Information Officer, aren't just any bureaucrats—they’re creatives and community builders who found their way into technology. Mike’s a musician in the indie electronic/alt-pop band Raker, and Mark’s an improv actor, so you know things won’t be boring. Their unique blend of expertise and creativity makes for lively and always insightful conversations. Think of a "Real Time with Bill Maher" panel with Leslie Knope from “Parks and Recreation,” but suitable for work!
Join Mike and Mark as they break down the topics of the day: AI, Govtech, smart cities, innovation, data privacy, digital ID, digital transformation, leadership, people and process, and more. They tackle serious topics with a relaxed, engaging tone, but with a touch of snark. Expect candid discussions with civil servants about making a difference, successes and failures, and advice for policy makers and technologists.
If you’re into making local government better, whether you’re a politician, technology leader, or just someone who cares, "No BS Bureaucracy" is for you. Tune in, learn something new, and have a good time doing it.
(theme music, “Hologram” by Raker)
Follow Mark and Mike on LinkedIn, and Raker Instagram:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwheelerphl/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarasti/
@rakermusic https://www.instagram.com/rakermusic
6episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Augmented Cities, Amplified Problems: Zoning the Virtual World
Jan 24, 202500:39:28Tap to summarizeOur beloved ex-CIO’s dive into a Black Mirror version of cities disrupted by augmented and virtual reality with urban technology strategist Greg Lindsay. Greg breaks down his report, "Augmented City: Seeing Through Disruption", offering tools like Threatcasting to help local governments spot threats early and respond effectively. From veiling storefronts with virtual billboards to the chilling idea of AI manipulating what we see and hear in public, this future isn’t far off—it’s a virtual Pokémon knocking at the door.Augmented City report: https://urban.tech.cornell.edu/the-augmented-city/Highlights:Can Cities Regulate AI-Driven AR/VR? Local governments already struggle to manage real-world challenges like zoning and signage. What happens when digital layers overlay the physical world, manipulating public spaces and creating legal gray zones? Dark Realities: From scams using AI-generated personas to augmented gentrification and virtual content wars, the risks feel straight out of dystopian fiction—but they’re very real.Threatcasting: A strategic foresight method Greg used to develop his Augmented City report, blending storytelling and analysis to predict future scenarios. It identifies warning signs (flags) and actionable steps (gates) for cities to manage risks and harness opportunities as AI-powered AR/VR reshapes public spaces.Whether it’s city planners getting a handle on virtual positioning systems or harnessing AI AR/VR for impactful civic engagement, this episode is packed with insights into the promises—and perils—of augmented cities.In the music segment, Mike, Mark, and Greg discuss the evolving role of algorithms in music discovery, the tension between passive and intentional listening, and the dominance of streaming platforms like Spotify in shaping what we hear. Greg shares his seasonal love for deep cuts from Vince Guaraldi’s Charlie Brown Christmas, while Mike and Mark debate the merits of releasing unfinished tracks and the future potential of AI tools to revolutionize how we curate our music experiences.🎧 Follow our hosts and guests:Greg Lindsay: https://greglindsay.org/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-lindsay-8b16952/ Mike: @sarasti.bsky.social https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarasti/ @rakermusic.bsky.socialMark: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwheelerphl/ https://markaroo.medium.com#AugmentedReality #UrbanPlanning #GovTech #localgovernment #government #cities #smartcities #zoning #futurist #ARThanks to Raker for our musical intro/outros: https://open.spotify.com/track/4JqywsINKEWZucDNYlnBBU?si=da45e2c66825465b YouViewNew by WeBureaucrat is Mark’s latest faux advert.
Transcribe →Innovation as a Service
Jan 6, 202500:43:21Tap to summarizeIn Episode #5, co-hosts Mike Sarasti and Mark Wheeler chat with civic innovation leader Eliza Erickson to explore how local governments can shape innovation ecosystems within and outside of city hall. From her unexpected leap into government work to managing a flagship portfolio in Philadelphia, Eliza spills the tea on what it takes to grow and shape innovation as a city service. Some highlights:People, Place, and Process: Eliza lays out her career-defining mantra and how this framework shaped Philadelphia's innovation efforts: the Innovation Academy, Innovation Fund, and Innovation Consulting (internal and external to government).Fix the Basics Before Innovating: Eliza explains, “We couldn’t fully dive into innovation until we knew IT systems were solid, people’s computers worked, and data was secure.” She highlights how foundational work builds the trust and stability necessary for innovation teams to thrive.Innovation as a City Service: Eliza and Mike discuss how local government is well-suited to deliver innovation consulting programs. A bold move taken years ago by the city of Philadelphia to “not stay in your lane, government.”Challenging the notion that proximity to executive power is essential for innovation success: There are benefits to being positioned outside the mayor’s office.In a heartfelt close, Eliza calls for more people to embrace public sector work—your impact is immediate.On the local music front—Mike and Mark recount their epic iiiPoints music festival experience; Soulwax, Disclosure, Toro y Moi, Sacred Souls, Justice, Bar Italia, and Parliament Funkadelic.Follow Eliza (Pollack) Erickson at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizapollack/ elizaphl.bsky.socialMike: @sarasti.bsky.social https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarasti/ @rakermusic.bsky.socialMark: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwheelerphl/ https://markaroo.medium.com@#cities #publicsector #innovation #government #publicpolicyThanks to Earl Grant for his voice on the fake advert “Translator Gator” and Raker for our musical intro/outros. https://open.spotify.com/track/4JqywsINKEWZucDNYlnBBU?si=da45e2c66825465b
Transcribe →Want Evergreen Innovation? Subtract, Don’t Add. An Interview with Innovation Expert, Brian Elms
Nov 11, 202400:55:50Tap to summarizeIn this episode of No BS Bureaucracy, Mike Sarasti and Mark Wheeler join forces with public sector innovation guru Brian Elms, of Peak Academy and Change Agents, to explore how to make continuous process improvement part of the bureaucracy— revealing that to make local government services better, the best addition is a good subtraction. There are too many insights in this episode to list! Don’t Quit When You're Ahead - Brian emphasizes that innovation in government is an evergreen program - there needs to be on-going training and investment in the work of process improvement. Apparently, innovation in government is like doing laundry; it's never really done!Compound Interest - Not every innovation needs to be groundbreaking; often, small, continuous improvements can lead to significant cumulative effects.The Art of Subtraction - In a system that loves to add—more programs, more process—Brian advocates for simplification and subtraction as the rule of thumb in process improvement.Efficiency is a Trigger Word - If you’re looking to have zero impact, by all means focus on efficiency and streamlining as a strategy. No one knows what these terms mean or how to achieve them - without leadership, training, and direction.Brian and Mike also introduce their new venture, RVRWRK (“river work”) https://rvrwrk.com/ aimed at supercharging problem discovery and process mapping for governments. RVRWRK combines Mike, Brian, and third co-founder Jose Otero’s decades of experience in local government process improvement with low code tech and AI agents. The aim is to drastically cut down the time spent on the discovery and validation of stages, allowing clients to quickly and confidently advance to the improvement work.After an advertisement from 'We Bureaucrat' for Aromatherapy IoT, the crew enters the Stage Side part of the podcast and recount their latest live shows including Vampire Weekend, Steve Wilson Jr., Blondshell, and Amyl and the Sniffers. Mike and Mark plan for a Three Points Festival 2024 adventure in Miami.Follow Brian Elms at: https://brianelms.com/ and https://changeagentstraining.com/ Follow RVRWRK at: https://rvrwrk.com/Thanks to Earl Grant for his voice on the faux advert and Raker for our musical intro/outros. https://open.spotify.com/track/4JqywsINKEWZucDNYlnBBU?si=da45e2c66825465b #localgovernment #publicsector #innovation #generativeAI #changeagents #rvrwrk
Transcribe →Just Because genAI Can, Doesn’t Mean genAI Should - in City Hall
Oct 1, 202400:30:00Tap to summarizeIn Episode #3, hosts Mike Sarasti and Mark Wheeler respond to questions from listeners about generative AI. Mike and Mark make it clear: for local governments, early experimentation is valuable, but do not downplay the risks and execution considerations. Slapping on “use at your own risk” warning on your city hall genAI chatbot is maybe not the best way to actually serve the public?Not All AI Risk Profiles Are the Same: Local governments are conflating the very different risk profiles of generative AI vs. predictive AI, and by doing so, are creating unnecessary work and confusion about how to assess the impacts of "genAI-ifying" SaaS tools.Maybe Don’t Let a Copilot Take the Wheel: An immature, all-purpose generative AI, known to fabricate, is given access to the unclassified data of your workforce. What could go wrong?A Creative’s Organization Tool: Mike offers a more personal perspective, sharing how he uses AI tools like OpenAI’s ChatGPT to streamline his daily tasks and organizational workflows for his consulting work and his band’s music production/performances. He makes the case that while all-purpose genAI is great at organizing, he’s not relinquishing creative control.Focused is Better than “All-Purpose” genAI: Mark and Mike advocate for a sandboxed, focused, and restrictive use of a genAI model tailored (aka fine-tuned) for tasks on specific knowledge domains. By limiting the AI’s scope to a particular field, local governments can gain more accurate, reliable, and contextually relevant outputs, while minimizing the risk of errors.In the closing music segment, Mike gives an update on his band, Raker, and their upcoming shows and competition showcase for the Miami Three Points festival—and the band’s latest single, “Relevant,” streaming now on all music platforms.Featuring a “Just Say No” faux PSA by Earl Grant, local Philadelphia actor.Follow Raker on Instagram: @rakermusic Listen to "Relevant" on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/4JqywsINKEWZucDNYlnBBU?si=da45e2c66825465b
Transcribe →Cities, Slow Your Roll on Enterprise Generative AI
Aug 10, 202400:39:13Tap to summarizeIn Episode #2 of No BS Bureaucracy, hosts Mike Sarasti and Mark Wheeler explore local governments' readiness for generative AI. They tackle the notion that cities must rush to put enterprise-level gen AI tools into production. Their bottom line?Don’t relinquish the wheel to any gen AI co-pilots until city leaders understand the contours of their departments’ data sprawl.Leaders must be familiar with gen AI tools themselves.AI governance is a natural extension of all your existing frameworks for governing data, privacy, and ethics - not a standalone program to be built from scratch.Mike shares his personal journey with gen AI, explaining how he jumped into a relationship with ChatGPT rather quickly (hmmm… U-Haul has never seen a moving van lease get signed so fast!). Mike likens the process to "carving a sculpture," where the first output of gen AI is like a blob of potential, but you’ve got to spend time picking it apart and refining outputs. He recommends that local government leaders begin with familiar topics (where they are the subject matter experts) and see gen AI governance through the lenses of all existing policies on privacy and equity.Mark shares recommendations for crafting AI governance from existing data security and privacy programs. His main point is that AI is data. To govern gen AI effectively, cities must first be able to govern ALL of their data. He recommends taking stock of an organization’s data sprawl and asking some critical questions: What’s the current state of data governance? Is there a classification scheme for unstructured data? Are data retention policies enforced for legal and/or historical preservation purposes, or are hoarding tendencies running unchecked? Plus, where to go for help—like the GovAI Coalition for policy, procurement, and education templates and guidance.Mark also provides some stats to back up the feeling that gen AI adoption is a “must-do” for leaders but questions why the evidence of its transformation on industries and everyday life hasn't materialized.ADVERT: The Sara Connor Anti-AI Plug-inIn the closing segment, aka Mike & Mark’s music picks, Mike announces his band Raker is releasing new music in August! After a few years' hiatus, Raker is back with the release of the single “Hologram” on all music streaming platforms! https://open.spotify.com/track/6Qf228NOvNIG3MjoCc9ZeX?si=a866719ff1b242a6Instagram: @rakermusic https://www.instagram.com/rakermusicMark describes what it's like to fully experience Philly’s eclectic Martha Graham Cracker Cabaret. Thanks to Earl Grant for lending his thespian skills to the “Anti-AI plug-in” advert.#innovation #AI #genAI #localgovernment #govtech #publicsector #smartcities
Transcribe →Portable Digital IDs and the City - Ready or Not?
Jul 6, 202400:40:01Tap to summarizeThe pilot episode! The ex-CIOs are “unleashed” and talk about the state of innovation leadership in local government (whose job is it really?) and delve into the value of digital IDs and state-issued mobile driver licenses (mDLs) to cities. They discuss how different approaches to digital ID can seamlessly, and securely, unlock municipal services for residents. Mike provides details on a recent project exploring emergency relief payments with decentralized IDs and verifiable credentials. Mark answers the question, how do local governments get ready for the adoption of portable digital IDs and mDLs?Plus Recap their digital ID panel at Smart Cities Connect with guest speakers and digital ID experts from Socure, Ying, and Spruce ID. Hot topics at the recent Smart Cities Connect conference in Raleigh, NC.Highlights from the local music scene - the Sweeping Promises show in downtown Raleigh.Thanks to local Philly actor Earl Grant for his voice on Translator Gator.
Transcribe →