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- [00:00]
Leah Lippman
Early birds always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action.
- [00:06]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine.
- [00:12]
Leah Lippman
Average savings $141. Select homes only.
- [00:16]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Trump writes his own attack ad for Democrats to use against the Republicans this November. And I've got two interviews. New York City Mayor Zoran Maldani joins to discuss the Iran war and his first 100 days in office. And law professor Leah Lippman joins to discuss the Supreme Court's birthright citizenship hearing. I'm Brian Teller Cohen, and you're Listen, no lie. So there was a clip on the White House's social media accounts that was abruptly taken down. But you know what they say about the Internet. And so without further ado, I present to you the contents of a clip that I presume will be quite present over the next few months as we head toward midterms.
- [00:51]
Donald Trump
Don't send any money for daycare because the United States can't take care of daycare. That has to be up to a state. We can't take care of daycare. We're a big country. We have 50 states. We have all these other people. We're fighting wars. We can't take care of daycare. You got to let a state take care of daycare, and they should pay for it, too. They should pay. They have to raise their taxes, but they should pay for it. And we could lower our taxes a little bit to them to make up, but it's not possible for us to take care of daycare, Medicaid, Medicare, all these individuals things, they can do it on a state basis. You can't do it on a federal. We have to take care of one. Military protection. We have to guard the country. But all these little things, all these little scams that have taken place, you have to, you have to let states take care of them, Russell. And you have to do it.
- [01:44]
Brian Tyler Cohen
I mean, my God, just get this guy on the campaign trail. Like, talk about a winning message. No daycare, no health care, just wars. That is the only priority of the federal government. We have to spend less money on things that impact regular Americans so that we can dump every single fucking dollar into war. Brought to you, of course, by the no new wars president. But the most egregious part is that of all people, Trump knows better. Because as grocery prices rise and utility bills rise and gas costs rise, Trump exploited that very phenomenon to win the election and even outright admitted it. This was him just after November 2024.
- [02:22]
Donald Trump
But likewise, an old fashioned term that we use, groceries. I use it on the campaign. It's such an old fashioned term, but a beautiful term, groceries. It sort of says a bag with different things in it. Groceries went through the roof. And I campaigned on that. I talked about the word groceries for a lot.
- [02:39]
Brian Tyler Cohen
In other words, he was well aware. And yet, since he's actually taken power, think about what he and his party have actually done to solve those very issues that they ran on. The Republicans gutted Medicaid for 17 million Americans. They gutted ACA subsidies for 24 million Americans, gutted food assistance for millions of Americans. They've enabled a trade war that spiked the cost of everything. They've greenlit a war that sent the cost of oil surging. And now they're seeking approval for another $200 billion to fund a war that, by the way, Trump swore up and down he would never let happen.
- [03:10]
Donald Trump
I'm not gonna start a war. I'm gonna stop wars. No more wars, no more disruptions. We will have prosperity and we will have peace. Under Trump, we will have no more wars, no more disruptions, and we will have prosperity and peace for all. I am the candidate of peace. I am peace.
- [03:28]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So not only did he break that promise with no rationale ever given, but he's broken literally every promise that went along with it. Like, he swore he'd be an America first president. And all that's happened since he's taken over is that Americans lives have become more expensive and the programs that Americans rely on have become more out of reach. And yet all. All the while, this guy stands up there and lectures all of us for deigning to have believed that the government could actually help regular Americans. He stands there and says, you know, now that he's already gotten your vote, that the only priority of the federal government is war. Not Medicare, not Medicaid, not daycare, not issues that you contend with on a daily basis, issues that actually impact your life. But war, that's it. We work every fucking day so that we can be little cogs in Trump's war machine. So my message to everyone in this country, left, right and center, is that we don't have to stand for this. We have elected Democrats across the country who are actually walking the walk when it comes to focusing on regular Americans. You're about to hear my interview with Zoran Mamdani. He talks about making fast and free buses a reality in New York. In Virginia, Abigail Spanberger and the Democratic legislature just passed a spate of bills focused on prescription drugs, preventative health care, affordable housing, free tax filing. And those are just two examples in two different jurisdictions. Trump may have said all of the right things on the campaign trail, but Democrats are showing that they are willing to deliver. That's the difference. One party did PR all to consolidate power for themselves. The other party is actually showing up. Something to keep in mind with midterms right around the corner. And again, don't take my word for it. Take Trump's, because I'm sure you'll be hearing his own words in ads across the country, followed by the phrase I'm insert Democrat and I approve this message. Next up are my interviews with Zoran Mamdani and Leah Lipman. No LIE is brought to you by Huel. So are you someone who has 30 minutes to cook or 30 seconds? Because I 100% fall into the latter category if it's not literally ready for me to eat. I usually just skip the entire meal. Not super healthy, but then again I work in politics so the whole healthy lifestyle ship has probably sailed. But my loss is Huel's gain because without it, I probably would be in a calorie deficit right now. I'm drinking Huel's, ready to drink vanilla flavor and my favorite is strawberry banana, but I finished those five minutes after I got them. But vanilla is awesome. There's also chocolate, chocolate, peanut butter, cookies and cream. All excellent flavors and these things have everything I need. First off, again, they taste great, so that's a huge plus. But beyond that, we're talking 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, colors or flavors. And it's gluten free, meaning for under $5 you've got a complete meal that you can literally grab and go. Personally, I add creatine to mine, which blends perfectly with just a quick shake. So I get everything I need after the gym. And best of all, it legit fills me up so I'm not immediately searching for snacks and junk food right afterwards. For a limited time, get Huel today with an exclusive offer of 15% off with the code BTC@huel.com BTC that's H U E-L.com BTC code BTC at checkout. New customers only. I'm joined now by the Mayor of New York City, Zoran Mamdani. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [06:45]
Zoran Mamdani
It's a pleasure to be back.
- [06:46]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So I want to get your reaction first and foremost to some breaking news right now. And that is that the Republican Party is now weighing health care cuts to pay for this increasingly expensive war or incursion or excursion or military operation, whatever they're calling it today in Iran. We know that they're trying to push through $200 billion for a war that Donald Trump campaigned on never getting into. Can I have your reaction to the massive amount of money and the massive amount of sacrifice that it would take to actually get this funding passed?
- [07:17]
Zoran Mamdani
I think we're seeing the fact that in the face of Americans facing a historic affordability crisis, that we have the pursuit of something that has already cost $23 billion thus far, the kind of money that could transform working class Americans lives, whether through investments in Medicare or teachers, or even elimination of student debt for tens of thousands of Americans. And all of that being thrown aside for the pursuit of yet another regime change war. And it's a war that should be opposed on every single ground. Not just procedural, but also moral, but also political. And also a war that should be opposed on the grounds of the fact that it is being financed by the very money that could make it easier to keep calling this city, this country, home. And yet there is a blindness to that fact that all while we're being told that this is, this is not what we're seeing with our own eyes,
- [08:10]
Brian Tyler Cohen
why do you presume that foreign administration and a political party that spent so much of their political capital campaigning on this idea that they would not do this, that they, you know, kind of jumped headfirst into doing exactly the behavior that they condemned?
- [08:25]
Zoran Mamdani
You know, I can't speak to what would make someone to get to that decision. I can just tell you that it's one that when I speak to New Yorkers across the city, no matter political party that people oppose, like I may be a young mayor, but I'm old enough to have remembered the disastrous consequences of regime change wars. And that's exactly what we're seeing in this. And the pursuit of this war is one that is not just using money that could be used elsewhere. It's also driving up prices across the city and across this country. And that's making it harder for working class Americans to live their day to day lives and meet their day to day needs.
- [09:00]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So I want to talk about New York specifically. Now on the campaign trail, you had a lot of promises that, campaign promises that you were especially focused on free buses, freezing the rent, universal childcare. Can you give a little update? And I know that we're, you know, I know that you've just passed your 100 day mark in office. Can you give an update as to where some of those campaign promises stand?
- [09:23]
Zoran Mamdani
Absolutely. So first and foremost, of those three, the most expansive and expensive was that of universal child care. And on day eight of our administration, we joined hands with Governor Hochul to announce that we were putting our city on the roadmap to achieving exactly that. $1.2 billion in state funding and support so that we could start to deliver free child care for 2 year olds across the city starting this fall. So this fall we're delivering that free childcare for two year olds to 2,000 kids. Next year, 12,000 kids. By the end of four years, by the end of the first term, we will be delivering universal childcare for every two year old in New York City. And we're doing this while also fixing the previous system for three year olds, which hadn't been able to keep up demand meeting demand for New yorkers across the five boroughs. And so we're creating about 1,000 more seats in that program as well. And all of this is tackling what after housing is the number one crisis that New Yorkers are facing in trying to stay in the city. Because the cost of childcare is at least $20,000 a year. And that's frankly insurmountable. Whether you're making 50k a year, 100k a year, even 200k a year, you're going to feel that kind of cost. Then when it comes to making buses fast and free, it continues to be our focus. We have just recently made policy decisions that will speed up the bus routes that over 130,000 New Yorkers use on a daily basis. And that's our North Star is how to take what at times are buses that are crawling slower than New Yorker walks when they're late to making them the envy of the country, working with the state to make them free. We're in the process of this budget negotiation right now. We saw in both the assembly and the Senate, the New York State Legislature, a vision come forward where they want to start to make routes free, which we're incredibly heartened by. We're hopeful that by the end of this budget process we'll see the first results of that with a pilot program across the city and then with the rent freeze. I continue to believe that New Yorkers do deserve a rent freeze at a time when we're seeing profits increase for landlords, we're seeing the fact that the median household income for tenants last year was just $60,000 in these rent stabilized units. Ultimately, the final decision is with the Rent Guidelines Board. They are considering all of the evidence. They're going to make their final determination this summer. And I've been encouraging New Yorkers to be a part of that consideration. Go out to the hearings they'll have in June. They can find more info for that@nyc.gov RGB in the weeks to come.
- [11:43]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Now, in order to pay for some of these priorities, you on the campaign trail promise proposed a 2% citywide income tax on those individuals who are earning over a million dollars. Is that still in play? And can you talk about the broader aim alongside Senator Bernie Sanders to move forward with a wealth tax for those who are making over a certain threshold of money?
- [12:07]
Zoran Mamdani
You know, we're talking about a city that is at one level the wealthiest city and the wealthiest country in the history of the world. And at another level is a place where one in four New Yorkers are living in poverty. And this, this income inequality that has become endemic to life in our city is not fixed. It's not natural. It's a result in many ways of political choices at the city, state and national levels. And I continue to believe that taxing the wealthiest New Yorkers, the most profitable corporations, that little bit more to ensure that working class New Yorkers can afford to live in this city is something that is necessary and it continues to be part of our advocacy with the state. And we've also said that, you know, we are open to a number of different ways that we could tax wealth in this city and in this state because we want to ensure that a financial crisis that working class people had nothing to do with is not one that they're then asked to bear the
- [13:00]
Brian Tyler Cohen
burden of responding to in terms of some type of wealth tax. The critics will come forward and say, and threaten really capital flight, that they're going to leave New York and somewhere else. What is the response to that? And I say that not just as, as the mayor of, or I asked that not just as the, to not just the mayor of New York, but frankly other high income blue cities and states that are trying to contend or reconcile with, okay, how do we both raise revenue so that we can implement policies that garner the support of the vast, vast, vast majority of constituents while also taking into account the fact that there are these threats that are leveled by, by, by high earners who, you know, threaten to go to red states, for example, that offer them havens where they're not going to get taxed.
- [13:50]
Zoran Mamdani
I think the first thing is to come back to the facts. You know, when I was in the State assembly, we were advocating to raise personal income taxes and corporate taxes at the time to meet the needs of working class New Yorkers. We were told that millionaires were going to flee. That was in 2021. We raised about $4 billion in additional revenue that year. And what we found is that now we have more millionaires than we did back at that point. And these are the kinds of facts that too often are missing from the conversation. I'm sure you remember when I was running for mayor, many people said that they would be leaving on day one, if not even day zero. And what we have seen instead is that that kind of a proposed flight has not actually taken place. It's not to say we shouldn't take it seriously, but it's to say that when these kinds of threats are being put forward, we have to ask what is the evidence that's actually standing up behind them? Or is this just the kind of fear mongering that often meets any kind of ambitious vision for working class people? And that's where I think it has to get back to, because we're talking about a city where it costs three bucks to get on the bus or ride the train, and that's out of reach for one in five New Yorkers. It's the same city where some people are buying condos for $260 million. So clearly what our current approaches is not working. We have to make this a place where we're making it easier to stay as opposed to easier to leave.
- [15:05]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And it turns out those, those, those cushy Park Avenue apartments overlooking, overlooking Central park are not too easy to replicate if they want to go down, down south or to the Midwest or wherever. You know, while you're making so much progress on implementing these campaign promises, what would be the ultimate goal? Like these are all put goals that you put forward for yourself and in large part are accomplishing them right now. But I presume that you look at this as the on ramp, not the final destination. And so, you know, once you've built up this political capital and trust with voters, because you're keeping, you're keeping true to your promises, what would a bigger vision for New York beyond free buses, freezing the rent and universal childcare, which is not to put any of those things down because those are massive impacts. But, but what, what is, what is that, what is the next iteration of, of your leadership look like?
- [15:59]
Zoran Mamdani
I think it's that working class people can feel our policies in their lives, right? That they can feel the benefit of this political agenda in the lives and the struggles that they're living on a day to day basis. And what I mean by that is that too often, you know, it feels as if you're trying to translate something into someone's life to make it clear how this, why this matters, or what this means to them. When we're talking to New Yorkers about the cost of getting on the bus or childcare or the rent, people understand that intuitively because those are the very costs that are giving them anxiety about whether they can make it to the next month or the month after that. And so for me, the longer term goal here is that a working person has an easier life to live in this city and that they can see clearly how city government is making an impact in it. And you know, when I ran and even when I was inaugurated, I spoke about having run as a democratic socialist and now looking to govern as a democratic socialist. And to me, democratic socialism, it is a belief in the fact that democracy has to be extended from just the ballot box into the rest of people's lives where they can feel like they are actors in what they are actually doing as opposed to things just happen to them. And that's what we're looking for, is every single place that people are being pushed by a cost of living crisis, that it feels as if oxygen is being taken out of their bodies and their lives. How can we bring that back to them?
- [17:24]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Have you had interactions with other Democratic mayors? Yes. But like other Democratic politicians, writ large about how to transpose some of the successes that you've had in both your, your policy and your messaging to help other folks around the country.
- [17:41]
Zoran Mamdani
You know, I've been lucky enough to meet a number of mayors and other Democratic politicians when they've either come to New York City or it's been on the phone. And I've shared whatever the lessons are that from what we've learned over these last about three months, I'll be frank with you, I'm still looking to learn at this time as opposed to lecture to anyone else. And so one of the things that's been such a joy, frankly, is my political mentor is Bernie Sanders. And just being able to be in regular touch with him as to what are the ways we should be tackling this crisis. And what I've so appreciated about him is the fact that he's not just the senator or the presidential candidate that many of us think of him as. He's also a former mayor of Burlington. And so oftentimes it's some of the very emphasis that he lends to me is we have to also focus on the day to day things. So if you're asking me about universal childcare, freezing the rent, making buses fast and free, I have to do those things and fill the potholes in this city. Because every time you feel a bump, if you're riding a bike, if you're driving a car, that's a feeling that city government doesn't care about me. And so we're trying to make that clear in everything that we do on a day to day.
- [18:51]
Brian Tyler Cohen
You had just responded a couple of days ago with the number of potholes that you filled. Can you quickly tell me what that number is?
- [18:57]
Zoran Mamdani
We are getting to a place, I think at this time because we gave a number a few days ago, that number has now gone up. So. So I'm gonna have to get back to you.
- [19:08]
Brian Tyler Cohen
I think we're getting roughly in the ballpark of roughly in the ballpark.
- [19:14]
Zoran Mamdani
I mean, we're coming close to 100,000 being fixed by the time that we've been in office.
- [19:18]
Brian Tyler Cohen
How, how does it get to the point where in, in the five minutes that you've been in office, you're able to fill 100,000? Where was, where was the previous administration in doing a lot of the work that you're doing on a daily basis right now? And I don't mean this as a, I'm not, I don't mean this as a knock. I mean, how can you. I mean, I guess it is, I guess it is kind of a knock. But like, how do you get to the point where there are, there, there is so much work left undone or unattended to, to the point where you can say, you know, in the first, in 100 days in office, you've filled 100,000 potholes and counting.
- [19:53]
Zoran Mamdani
You know, I can't speak to what the previous administration was up to when it came to some of these things. You know, sometimes they were abroad, right. Sometimes they weren't here. But. Yeah, but I think it comes back to the fact that I view these things as evidence of the kind of work we're trying to do. Filling a pothole is not a small thing. It's not an unimportant thing. If you can't fill a pothole, how are you going to deliver universal childcare? These are two parts of the same kind of connected set of politics. You have to be able to do both of these things for someone to trust that city government can deliver for them. And the other beautiful thing here, I'll tell you, is that I am leading a city government of 300,000 municipal workers who work so hard every single day. And when we're talking about these potholes, we're talking about DOT workers who are out there, and they are putting everything they have into this. And frankly, for far too long, they haven't been recognized. And that's also been one of the most exciting things here, is to shine a little bit of a light on what it looks like to be a part of a city workforce that is doing incredible work, keeping the city running and committed to the welfare of people who call the city home.
- [21:04]
Brian Tyler Cohen
You had mentioned that your mentor is Bernie Sanders. What's the one piece of advice that Bernie had given to you that you still think about or that had the biggest impact on you?
- [21:16]
Zoran Mamdani
I think in many ways, Bernie is the inspiration for this slogan that we've taken up, which I've now belatedly realized has a connection to paw patrol, which is, which is that there's no problem too big, no task too small. Because what Bernie has emphasized to me is this idea of sewer socialism that has, sometimes it's felt as if it's been lost to time. This idea that you deliver this expansive vision of politics through fixes to the most granular problems in people's lives is one that has to be at the heart of the way in which we're approaching every single issue. And we have to remember that there's a reason why people have lost faith in government. It's because they see examples of government's failure on a regular basis. And if you want to get their faith back, you don't convince them in a debate or you give a great speech. You convince them by taking care of the thing that they would point to as a reason as to why they don't believe and whether it's socialism or maybe we're trying to now dub it pothole, pothole praxis where we're looking to take on every single thing that we can.
- [22:24]
Brian Tyler Cohen
You know, hearing you talk about making actual democratic or left wing or pro democracy governance work, you know, bears some resemblance to, to the abundance conversation that sprouted up in the last year. And there were some critics that looked at, looked abundance as a, as a way to kind of shoehorn through neoliberal policies. Because if you're, if you're focusing on abundance policies or making democratic governance work, then, then that is kind of a way to just smooth over bigger thinking fixes to this stuff. But can you, can you speak on, on that issue more broadly, whether you think abundance policies are mutually exclusive with big, bold, sweeping governance that makes the city work?
- [23:09]
Zoran Mamdani
I don't think so. I don't think that there's an innate tension in some of the proposals that have been put forward. I think the things that are so appealing to me about what I've read when it comes to an abundance theory is the focus on efficiency and the understanding that to have public goods, you have to have public excellence. And so for me, it's taking the best of what that puts forward when it looks at the ways in which a lot of proceduralism has rendered some of our most ambitious ideas impractical, and then fixing the procedures so that we can actually deliver those ideas. Sometimes when a procedure is broken and we don't get the impact that we'd intended, people take that as a reflection on the idea itself. I think that the ideas are the ones we have to actually deliver. And what I'm seeing in so much of what we're approaching in city government is that there is a way to do this work. If you're as serious as you are about the intent as you are about
- [24:05]
Brian Tyler Cohen
the outcome of it, we'll leave it there. Mayor Mamdani, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate it.
- [24:10]
Zoran Mamdani
Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be back.
- [24:15]
Brian Tyler Cohen
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- [25:55]
Leah Lippman
Thanks for having me.
- [25:56]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So we've just heard arguments in Trump versus Barbara, which is the the birthright citizenship case of the Supreme Court. So from what I had heard so far, it was a pretty rough go for the Trump team. But I want to get your opinion as a Supreme Court expert. How do you think this went for Trump versus how it went for the other party Party?
- [26:14]
Leah Lippman
I think it's clear that the court is going to rule correctly that the executive order purporting to deny people birthright citizenship is unconstitutional. I don't think it's clear that the ruling is going to be unanimous. And that itself is a travesty. Just because the text of the 14th Amendment is super clear, the history is super clear. And so even though Donald Trump is about to get this huge loss, he will have succeeded in polarizing this issue and unsettling it in some respects. And in doing so is about to give the suprem this huge gift of making them look independent and credible when they reject his unhinged, deranged theory.
- [26:54]
Brian Tyler Cohen
What did you make of the fact that he decided to appear at the arguments in person?
- [26:59]
Leah Lippman
You know, I really didn't know what to make of it. I'm sure the justices were not amused by it because it probably made it seem like more of a spectacle. But they deserve him. You know, they partially created him and they have given him a lot of what he wants to. So it's hard to know exactly why he picked this case. He had threatened to attend the oral argument in the Tariffs case, but then didn't follow through with it. He did follow through with this one. A part of me wondered if he was setting us up for an April Fool's joke, but I don't know why he chose this one in particular.
- [27:30]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Do you think there's any merit to this idea that he went kind of as this as this foreboding presence. I mean, you had used the word threatened to go for his tariff case, but I actually did kind of look at this as through that lens, like he was there to remind the Supreme Court justices who they owe their jobs to. And, you know, him being there might kind of chill them into being more acquiescent to him than they would otherwise be if he wasn't present. Do you buy that at all?
- [28:00]
Leah Lippman
It's possible he deluded himself into thinking that, but there's just no way his actual presence was going to be that level of intimidation to the justices because, you know, they have a home host of security and protection in a way that lower federal court judges do not. And so in some ways, you know, the threats he makes on Truth Social and the statements he gives in press conferences riling up his base against him, that's way more concerning than him just showing up at an oral argument.
- [28:31]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Did you read into the fact that he decided to leave after the Solicitor General made his, made his arguments and didn't stay for the other side to rebut what had been said?
- [28:44]
Leah Lippman
It certainly made me wonder. I don't know that I got a read on exactly why. It's very possible he got bored. These oral arguments are very dry and technical. It's also possible that he picked up on the fact that the argument wasn't going well for the lawyer for the federal government. Hard to know which of the two or maybe a third.
- [29:04]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, the thing that struck me is I listen to these arguments. I do a legal series every day with Mark Elias. I have another series that I do with Glenn Kirschner, who is a 30 year former federal prosecutor. So I get my fill of legalese and jargon. And even despite all of that, listening to these Supreme Court arguments, it is a whole different level of technicality and jargon. And so I can imagine for somebody like Donald Trump who is in like year five of bragging about how he aced a dementia test where the hardest question was to like identify a fucking farm animal for him. For somebody like that to, to be in this courtroom listening to these arguments might, might not feel like the most welcoming argument, you know, okay, so that's true.
- [29:48]
Leah Lippman
On the other hand, Neil Gorsuch was able to get the crowd to laugh at the expense of the federal government. And I think even Donald Trump could probably pick up on that, even if he could not follow any of the actual words that were being said to that end.
- [30:05]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Was there any moment in particular that you thought felt like that could serve as you know, if the federal government loses the nail in the coffin.
- [30:15]
Leah Lippman
I'm not sure there was a single moment that was a nail in the coffin as far as this moment exposed the key weakness in the federal government's theory, just because there are thousands of key weaknesses, any of which is sufficient to reject.
- [30:28]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, I do feel like the 14th amendment to the Constitution existing is a pretty big nail in the coffin in
- [30:34]
Leah Lippman
this case, the 14th Amendment.
- [30:36]
Zoran Mamdani
Right.
- [30:36]
Leah Lippman
And so it seems like, you know, the various Republican appointees were just trotting out the different weaknesses. You know, for Justice Gorsuch, he's like, you know, there was that decision. Wong Kim Ark heard about it, you know, so that seems bad for you. Justice Barrett, by contrast, relied more on the history behind the 14th Amendment and the fact that it was designed to overturn Dred Scott and ensure that the descendants of enslaved persons would be citizens. Justice Kavanaugh, by contrast, you focus more on the federal statute codifying birthright citizenship. So it's just kind of a pick your poison.
- [31:09]
Brian Tyler Cohen
If we do see one of the justices or multiple justices, and I assume this is going to probably fall in the Alito or Thomas Bucket side with Trump in this case after they've done so, after we've seen this court kind of bend over backwards in blind deference to Trump in the past. I mean, they created out of whole cloth this provision that a president can't be held accountable for criminal activity that they commit. They ignored Section 3 of the 14th Amendment that says that you can't run for federal office again if you've engaged in or given aid or comfort to those who've engaged in insurrection, which, of course, Trump was found to have done. So what does it say that we will, you know, in the event that. That, of course, that a Thomas or Alito decides to side with Trump on this. What does that say about the credibility of this court that seems increasingly capable or willing to completely discard the Constitution in blind deference to their political ideology?
- [32:05]
Leah Lippman
It's another pretty damning indictment of this court and the fact that any justice would embrace this argument, which is so soundly inconsistent with text, history, precedent, every single possible source of authority and law you can imagine. It's hard to come up with, you know, yet another example of how the Supreme Court could prove itself to be more of a clown show. And yet they always find new ways.
- [32:38]
Brian Tyler Cohen
How could they hear this case like, I'm sitting there listening to this. And there are. There are thousands of cases that get rejected every year, valid cases that get rejected every year because you only have so much time. They only have so much. Everything is limited, right? And yet this is such a crazy case where they're basically just saying the 14th Amendment to the Constitution doesn't exist or shouldn't exist, whatever it may be. It's become a laughingstock across the country right now. And yet they got to take the case like this case, got to take the spot of some other case that was probably much more deserving. And so, like, I just don't understand why this, why they would say yes to hearing something that is just so juvenile and elementary.
- [33:24]
Leah Lippman
It's really annoying because they could have disposed of this issue last year when they heard the case involving nationwide injunctions. The plaintiffs in that case said, look, if you're going to say you can't get nationwide injunctions, you should also consider whether this underlying executive order is lawful. The three Democratic appointees said, yeah, it's illegal. The Republican appointees declined to do so. The justices also didn't have to hear oral argument in this case. They could have issued a six sentence opinion that just says, yep, lower court, correct. See the 14th Amendment. And they chose to do so. And I honestly think that one key reason is they are buying themselves more credibility and more favorable publicity when they draw this out, because everyone is now talking about the oral argument. We're going to be talking about it again come opinion season. And so they're just buying themselves more opportunities for favorable publicity. Whereas if they would have disposed of it simultaneously with saying no nationwide injunctions, or if they would have summarily said months ago, executive order is illegal, that's not going to give them cover for the many horrible decisions they are going to release toward the end of this term, whether it is a decision that possibly ends what remains of the Voting Rights act, whether it is a decision giving Donald Trump basically plenary authority over the federal government and the power to fire officials who lead almost every federal agency or any of the other cases where they're going to do who knows what.
- [34:48]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Although would you say that if we do see a split decision, if we do see, you know, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito side with Trump, wouldn't that undermine the, the, the softball like gimme that this court was seeking by even hearing this case?
- [35:03]
Leah Lippman
It will a little, but it's only gonna drown out a little bit of the light. You know, all of the headlines are still going to say Supreme Court affirms Birthright Citizenship rules against Trump.
- [35:16]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Do you think taking kind of a 30,000 foot view of this, if Democrats are able to regain control of the House, the Senate and the White House that, you know, anything they put forward in front of this 6, 3 conservative court where the judges are relatively young, and this is like D.C. young. Right. Where like if you're like 60 years old, you're a baby. But relatively young. Yeah, relatively young. Do you think that there. That Democrats should try and move forward with, with a plan to expand the court?
- [35:46]
Leah Lippman
Expand the court, Impose ethics rules on the court, limit the Supreme Court's authority to strike down laws like the Voting Rights act, limit the Supreme Court's authority to strike down regulations, like a clean power plan. I mean, you need to do a lot in order to rein in this blunderbuss of a court.
- [36:03]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And what would it take just on court expansion alone, what would it take, technically speaking, to be able to do that?
- [36:11]
Leah Lippman
Majority in the House, majority in the Senate, and a president who's willing to sign the legislation.
- [36:15]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And when you say majority in the Senate, that is, that is a 60,
- [36:18]
Leah Lippman
the 60 they're willing to get rid of the filibuster, then you know, you would just need a majority of the senators. Otherwise. Yes, you would need a filibuster proof majority.
- [36:26]
Brian Tyler Cohen
All right, well, look, I mean, you know, from a political perspective, I was looking at analysis yesterday on what the Senate map was looking like, and you know, this because of how unpopular Trump is and because of the swings that we're seeing in the electorate from 2024 to 2026, suddenly the Senate is in play in a much bigger way than we ever thought possible, given, especially given how difficult the Senate map is. But suddenly seats in, in North Carolina and Maine and Ohio and Alaska and Texas are in play in a way that I don't think anybody could have imagined in the immediate aftermath of the November election in 2024. So we'll see. I mean, there is a world where the ceiling for Democrats in the senate becomes like 50, you know, 53, 54, if they're able to run the table. And frankly, given the fact that we've seen 16, 17 point swings to the left in some of these races, even in deep red districts, even in places like Tennessee and Florida. Just recently, Mar A Lago is now represented by a Democrat in the state legislature. So. So that is not an impossible task. Frankly, I think what's gonna be more difficult is making sure that Democrats have the stomach to actually wield power if and when they get it. And that seems to be our perpetual issue. But hopefully this is a Democratic Party that we're able to usher in after midterms that recognizes the urgency of this moment. So with that said from your lips, where can folks hear and see more from you?
- [37:58]
Leah Lippman
So I have a podcast I co host, Strict Scrutiny. Our regular episodes drop every Monday anywhere you get your podcasts as well as on YouTube as well as bonus episodes whenever the Supreme Court does something extra crazy. I'm also on Blue sky at Leah Lippman and of course you can check out my book Lawless how the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes at your favorite independent bookstore or anywhere you get your books.
- [38:20]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Awesome. I'm gonna put the link to Strict Scrutiny right here on the screen and also in the post description for those who are listening on the podcast and going to the Throw that into the show notes Leah, thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it.
- [38:30]
Leah Lippman
Thanks for having me.
- [38:32]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Thanks again to Soren Mamdani and Leah Lipman. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Sunday. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me ryanteller Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.
- [39:03]
Zoran Mamdani
At vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care Guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before
- [39:18]
Brian Tyler Cohen
your stay, through the moments in between
- [39:21]
Zoran Mamdani
and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace
- [39:24]
Leah Lippman
of mind and maybe a good playlist.
- [39:27]
Zoran Mamdani
But we've got the peace of mind part covered.