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- [00:00]
A
If you're shopping while working, eating, or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers? Do they get the brands they love? Savings and cash back and you can get it too. Start getting cash back at your favorite stores like Target, Sephora and even Expedia. Stack sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing the savings. It's easy to use and you get your cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. Stores pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R A K U t e n rakuten.com Epstein's co conspirators have finally started to get revealed and I have three interviews Ro Khanna and journalists Ari Berman and Alejandro Serrano. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen and you're listening to no Lie. Some bombshell news here as Epstein's co conspirators have now begun to get revealed. The revelation came as lawmakers were allowed to view the unredacted Epstein files, which by the way, were still largely redacted, and began asking the DOJ questions about why certain information was hidden. Because, as it turned out, these were not victims who were being redacted. They were the opposite. They were the co conspirators. And those lawmakers started speaking out publicly and pressuring the DOJ into doing what Pam Bondi and Donald Trump so desperately wanted to avoid doing, which is to reveal the identities of the scumbags that they were trying to protect. Here, for example, is Ro Khanna reading those names aloud on the House floor. Once those files were actually unredacted, Congressman.
- [01:43]
B
Massie and I went to the Department of Justice to read the unredacted Epstein files. We spent about two hours there and we learned that 70 to 80% of the files are still redacted. In fact, there were six wealthy, powerful men that the DOJ hid for no apparent reason. When Congressman Massey and I pointed this out to the Department of Justice, they acknowledged their mistake. And now they have revealed the identity of these six powerful men. These men are Salvatore Navora Zorab Michalades Lupig Leonor Nicola Caputa, Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayam, CEO of Dubai Ports World, and billionaire businessman Leslie Wexner.
- [02:37]
A
And it's not just that list, either. Another newly unredacted file offers up an account from a victim where she lays out who had knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's activities and finances. It said, quote, list the names and addresses of all persons who are believed or known by you, your agents or attorneys to have knowledge concerning any of the issues in this lawsuit. And specify the subject matter about which the witness has Jean Luc Brunel, Lex Wessner, Mark Epstein, Donald Trump, Jenny Saunders, David Copperfield, Ghislaine Maxwell, and someone with the last name Cunningham. Any of those names on that list sound familiar? And I gotta say, I find it so curious that the DOJ made all of these little mistakes where not a single fucking name of a single fucking co conspirator was unredacted. They managed to bat a thousand on redacting the names of the men who associated with Epstein. Don't you find that so interesting how they made all of those mistakes? Literally every mention of a co conspirator just so happened to be accidentally redacted. That is quite the coincidence, and it sure is convenient for those co conspirators, huh? But hey, I'm sure it was just an honest mistake every single time it happened, 100% of the time. And so now, yet again, the DOJ is left looking like absolute fools because remember, Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General, just days ago said this. You said this is the end of the Epstein, of your review of the Epstein files.
- [03:58]
C
So just to clarify, are.
- [04:01]
A
Is the public going to learn the identities of the men who abused the.
- [04:05]
C
Girls with the information that you're releasing?
- [04:08]
A
And if not, why not?
- [04:10]
D
And then I have a quick follow up.
- [04:12]
C
I mean, you just baked in an assumption into your question that I have never said and I don't know to be true. Is the public going to learn about men that abused these girls? Like, what does that mean? I mean, I don't understand what that means.
- [04:25]
A
Well, I mean, the men who abused.
- [04:30]
D
The young women through Epstein's.
- [04:33]
C
Through Epstein. We said in July, and it remains as true today as it was in July. If we had information, we, meaning the Department of Justice, about men who abused women, we would prosecute them. Right? We talked about the work that we're doing. That's why I said that I said this earlier. There's this built in assumption that somehow there's this hidden tranche of information of men that we know about that we're covering up or that we're choosing not to prosecute. That is not the case. I Don't know whether there are men out there that abuse these women.
- [05:07]
A
Aged about as well as milk in the sun. And it wasn't just Blanche either. FBI Director Cash Patel testified under oath just months ago that internal files contained no credible information. Epstein trafficked these girls to anyone other than himself.
- [05:20]
B
Who, if anyone, did Epstein traffic these young women to besides himself?
- [05:27]
C
Himself? There is no credible information. None. If there were, I would bring the case yesterday that he trafficked to other individuals. And the information we have again is limited.
- [05:38]
B
So the answer is no.
- [05:39]
C
1 for the information that we have.
- [05:43]
B
In the files, in the case file.
- [05:45]
A
So which is it? Was there no information to suggest that anyone else was involved? Or is there suddenly plenty of examples of co conspirators that have presented themselves in these files? And let's be clear about what's happening here. This administration is engaging in a cover up at quite literally every turn. From the fake phase one influencer binders last winter to Pam Bondi saying that the files were ready to be released and then never getting released to the blow up with Marjorie Taylor Greene to Trump summoning Lauren Boebert to the Situation Room to prevent her from signing onto the discharge petition. To all these DOJ officials swearing up and down that Epstein apparently trafficked a thousand girls to no one, to refusing to release the files by the December 19th deadline to now redacting the name of every single co conspirator and only revealing them once they got called out. Literally every step of the way they have shown that they will go to the wall to protect not the victims, but the perpetrators. It is as disgusting as it is obvious. Like we are witnessing the biggest political cover up in US history, one that makes Watergate look like nothing at all. And the fact that they're still to this day trying to hide the truth is all the evidence that you need that they've absolutely got more to hide. Next up are my interviews with Ro Khanna, Ari Berman and Alejandro Serrano. No lie is brought to you by Huel. So be honest here. When do you usually realize that you forgot to eat breakfast? For me it's around 2pm So I guess technically I've also missed lunch. I go from pretty much the moment I wake up, which is why I'm a big fan of Huel's Black Edition. Ready to drink. This is a lifesaver in the breakfast or on the go or even post workout department. Again, my most limited resource is time and this saves me a ton of it. Plus, it's not just filler. Listen to what's in it thinking 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, colors or flavors. It's gluten free. So if you're looking for a complete meal that costs under five bucks, this is it. And the perfect companion to the ready to drink option is the Black Edition powder. So I try to get into the gym most nights a week, so the last thing I want to do is fall behind in getting enough protein. The Black Edition powder allows me to control how much I get so that I'm never lacking. And just like the ready to drink option, the the Black Edition powder has the same high protein, same complete meal benefits. And of course you can add fruit or nut butter or ice or whatever you want to round it out. So if you want to make sure that you're not missing any meals, this combo makes it beyond simple. We've got a limited time offer. Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code BTC@huel.com BTC new customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show. I'm joined now by Congressman Ro Khanna. Congressman, thanks for joining me.
- [08:23]
B
Thank you for having me back.
- [08:24]
A
So today was quite a big day. You had the opportunity to see the unredacted Epstein files. Can you explain what was the most striking part of what you saw today?
- [08:33]
B
How much of it was still redacted? The reality is that the FBI and a lot of the grand jury transcripts that were sent to the DOJ were already redacted. So what we were seeing was some unredacted portions. But I'd say 70 to 80% was already redacted and that's in violation of our law. The law requires the FBI and the U.S. attorneys to unredact the information before sending it to justice.
- [09:02]
A
So is that going to be rectified?
- [09:05]
B
Absolutely. We're going to be pushing in court and through the Pam Bondi hearings and potentially through impeachment to make sure that there is action that's taken and that those we get the actual files. But there's also a sense of rot and cover up. I mean, there were six men that Thomas Massie and I identified whose identities were protected and those need to be released. There's no explanation for why their pictures were blotted out, why their names were protected. And the reality is while the British monarchy is having an existential crisis, you have the king actually making statements while you have the British government almost ready fall, while Norway's monarchy is having an Existential crisis here. There has not been accountability in America. I mean, you've got Lutnik still as the Commerce Secretary. You have someone who's the Secretary of the Navy who was on the Epstein plane not having to answer questions. And you've got all these elite big tech names, real estate names, people in Hollywood who just have their head down and are hoping that they'll escape scrutiny. It's time for the United States of America to. To have the kind of accountability for the Epstein class that we're seeing elsewhere in the world.
- [10:19]
A
How does Pam Bondi and the DOJ justify redacting these people's names? Because I'm going to read the plain text of the law. It says no record shall be withheld, delayed or redacted on the basis of embarrassment, reputational harm, or political sensitivity, including to any government official, public figure, or foreign dignitary. So, again, how can they justify these redactions?
- [10:40]
B
Well, they can't. And we discovered six redactions that were blatantly illegal done by the Department of Justice. But the broader issue is that they have an obligation at the FBI and with the grand jury documents to unredact them before sending them to Justice. So my guess is Pam Bondi is going to say, well, with some of these documents, that's what we receive. But the law is very clear that the redactions need to be eliminated, even at the level of the FBI. And we know that the FBI went through redacting Donald Trump's name, so they're doing the exact opposite of what the law requires.
- [11:17]
A
There was an email that was released back in December, and it was from two folks who worked, law enforcement officials who worked in the Violent Crime Section in the Crimes Against Children Human Trafficking Unit. And in those emails, they talked about the existence of 10 co conspirators and grand juries that had been served for those co conspirators. Three were in Florida, one was in Boston, one in New York, one in Connecticut. I'm assuming if these prosecutors felt strongly enough to put in writing that these people were co conspirators in this case, that they didn't do it completely baselessly. And so did you have the opportunity to follow any of those leads based on those previously released emails?
- [11:57]
B
Yes, and that's what we're saying. There's six men who are named, whose identities.
- [12:01]
A
So those are. Those are correlated with that email.
- [12:03]
B
They're correlated with that email and similar documents. Now, some of the co conspirators, again, are women. And my guess is that they've Redacted all the women. I'm not saying that all the women are survivors, but there may be some overlap between survivors and co conspirators. There are maybe other women who were actually guilty who they shouldn't have redacted, but certainly they shouldn't be redacting men. And in just two hours, Massey and I identified six men with their pictures who they were protecting. A couple of them pretty prominent. And that certainly shouldn't be the case.
- [12:37]
A
When you saw that, that there were at least six names that were redacted that shouldn't have been. Did you have any conversation with any law enforcement officials, any. Any DOJ officials who were there?
- [12:49]
B
Well, the DOJ officials were. There were actually helpful. They were ministerial. They were just helping us do the searches and they did their job. I mean, the problem is that this order of who to protect came up from much higher. And what we're going to do is give the DOJ a chance to correct it, not just with these six men. I think they will on that. The broader issue is how are we going to get the files released, which were redacted, perhaps at the FBI or at the grand jury itself, where it wasn't the Department of Justice lawyers going through it and redacting. It was redacting the information that we're getting. And that needs to be unredacted at the agency level.
- [13:26]
A
There was also news that Ghislaine Maxwell is seeking clemency in exchange for basically giving her side of what's going on. There was also some reporting that she would be able to clear Donald Trump in exchange for clemency. And so I think that's pretty obvious in terms of what that is. Just a pretty blatant quid pro quo. Your reaction to this idea that that one of the two named people in all of this is. Now, you know that there is. That there is some probability that she could actually be pardoned or granted clemency in exchange for giving Trump whatever information that he wants.
- [14:02]
B
Well, I was at her deposition. It was shameful. She needs to be sent right away immediately back to a maximum security prison. She basically told the committee she knows other rich and powerful people who raped underage girls, but she's not gonna share that and she's gonna plead the Fifth unless she's granted clemency. And we know that for nine hours she was willing to answer questions for Todd Blanche because she wants a pardon from Donald Trump. And yet she's not willing to answer the basic questions about Donald Trump or the other men implicated to our committee and she, there's no reason that she should be in a low security prison.
- [14:37]
A
Do you presume that the same information that she's holding right now that she's trying to dangle in exchange for a pardon or clemency could also be found within the Epstein file so that we don't have to go through the disgusting step of releasing one of the coconspirators of the sex trafficking ring?
- [14:53]
B
Not only I believe it, I know it to be true because I've talked to the survivors lawyers. They are not releasing the 302 forms. But Massey and I harped on the 302 form so much that they released them, but they basically released redacted versions. Then they said, okay, come see the unredacted versions. We get there and the unredacted version is the redacted version. Then I asked the Justice Department why is that? They said, well, our hands are tied. This is what we got. We, our job was just to enter it. Some of the redactions the Justice Department did was to protect survivors, but the fundamental issue is they got redacted files to begin with. And we know, like I said, that the FBI was working on redactions at Trump's orders. They even admitted it for months.
- [15:33]
A
At what point, and we speak about this every week when we ultimately get to this topic, but at what point do you deploy the, you know, break glass scenario of naming some of the names themselves right from the mouths of the survivors? If the DOJ is so hell bent on protecting these people and won't do it themselves.
- [15:54]
B
The survivors certainly can. You know, the six men I don't think is going to be the only thing the American people want. Because some of these are foreign born, some of these are people who are prominent, but not as prominent. I mention them just to show that they're protecting a group of people, but the real information is in the redactions.
- [16:16]
D
Yeah.
- [16:16]
B
And they're, you know, that only people who know are the survivors. It's putting a huge burden on the survivors to say that. And so what Massey and I are going to do is continue to fight. Look, no one gave us a chance to pass this thing. We passed it then. No one gave us a chance that we're going to get the files released. We've gotten files released that are literally bringing down other countries, governments. We've gotten a files release that have exposed the elite in Silicon Valley and finance and Hollywood in our country. And so we're going to continue fighting for the other 50%. And it's uphill, but so far, we've succeeded beyond what anyone thought was possible.
- [16:51]
A
Have you seen or are you familiar with or aware of any existing government officials in this country who are implicated in the Epstein files whose information has not yet been released?
- [17:03]
B
Not government officials, but I am aware of other senior business officials whose information has not yet been released. But in what we saw today, not government officials. Now, there are survivors who have talked to me who have shared stories about other government officials being implicated, but that was not something I saw today in the files.
- [17:24]
A
Okay, and how much confidence do you have that when Pam Bondi comes and testifies at the House on Wednesday, that she's going to be cooperative enough to get, you know, any. Any accurate information?
- [17:38]
B
She's going to face a barrage of questions, not just from the left, but from the right. Look, there are three Cabinet secretaries who are losing confidence in this government, and I don't know who's in the most danger. Lutnick probably should be, given that his name is all over the Epstein files and given that he was having business dealings allegedly with Epstein after Epstein was a convicted pedophile. You know, I don't understand how in Britain you could have a whole government topple based on Mendelssohn, and here you have a Commerce Secretary and no action. And then Pam Bondi, a lot of Republicans are upset that she has been less than transparent with the Epstein files. And Kristine Noem, I mean, there are Republicans who believe that what she's done in abusing ICE is totally unconstitutional. So you have a Cabinet that really is coming apart for Donald Trump. And I do believe, and we've discussed this before, Brian, that the Epstein files was the turning point for Donald Trump. The moment that historians will say his administration, his personality, his coalition started to unravel.
- [18:38]
A
Well, you know, the thing that bothers me with this idea that Pam Bondi is to blame is that Pam Bondi is not acting independent of Donald Trump. She's an appendage of Trump. She's an appendage of the executive branch. That's not just a benefit of her being there. It's why she's there. It's the whole reason for her being there as Attorney General. And so is there some acknowledgement, even from the Republicans who are losing faith in Pam Bondi, that Pam Bondi is nothing more than an empty suit, a vessel for Trump to be able to give, you know, hand down his edicts like that? He's the one in charge of everything here.
- [19:09]
B
Yes, ultimately, it is Donald Trump. And, you know, from the first term, Donald Trump learned his lesson that you can't have someone even as independent as Jeff Sessions. He really resented the fact that Jeff Sessions and then the deputy Attorney general who became the attorney general were somewhat independent. And he said, I am going to have my total lackeys there. And he got that with Pam Bondi. But there's anger at her because Donald Trump's betraying a core promise of exposing the Epstein files. And it's easy for MAGA to say, well, the person really doing it is Pam Bondi, without having to fully grapple with Donald Trump. But more and more people are realizing that this is Trump protecting pedophiles and betraying his central promise.
- [19:51]
A
Do you have any reason to believe, in anticipation of Pam Bondi's testimony for the House on Wednesday, that some Republicans are gonna take this opportunity to not to question her on the Epstein files, but instead try and change the narrative by, you know, obviously doing something that's more favorable to their own narrative and use that time to make that the main story?
- [20:10]
B
Sure, I think some will try to make it about Bill Clinton, but Bill Clinton is willing to testify. He's saying, let's testify in public. I'm waiting for Donald Trump to say that. But you are going to have a number of Republicans who are going to show deep concern with what Pam Bondi is doing. And that's because you have people like Sean Ryan, whose podcast I was on, who was one of the number two or three podcaster in the country, who was a total Trump supporter, now say, I'm never gonna support Trump because of Epstein. And so the Republicans understand that there is a MAGA base that is furious with what's going on in Epstein. When Laura Ingram is calling out the Epstein issue, you know, you have a problem. And I think Pam Bodney may be in for a rude awakening when she sees members of Congress responding to their base and not just being seen as a cover for Pam Bondi.
- [20:58]
A
Do you have any update in terms of the likelihood of Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton's testimony being a deposition behind closed doors versus congressional hearing out in the public?
- [21:09]
B
It should be a congressional hearing out in the public. But the President Clinton and Secretary Clinton are agreeing to whatever terms Comer wants. And really, that should be a standard that Lutnick agrees to, that Bill Gates agrees to, that Donald Trump agrees to. I mean, there's such focus on President Clinton and Secretary Clinton, and Secretary Clinton was, you know, from all I've seen, barely involved. And there's not enough focus at the people who actually are in the emails having visited the island or no information about girls being raped. And so my hope is that them setting that standard is going to be something that other people are withheld to in the Epstein class.
- [21:50]
A
And that's my last question here. Is there some recognition by even your Republican colleagues that if the precedent they want to establish is that you can haul in former presidents and their families, if they have any involvement whatsoever with Epstein to answer questions under oath, that there will come a point when Donald Trump is not in office anymore and that those people have to abide by the precedent that they're setting right now? Has that dawned on these people? Or do you think that they're, that they're just saying it now because it's convenient to drag Bill Clinton in and then they'll pull a Mitch McConnell and change their mind once it's no longer politically convenient for them to have to do so?
- [22:24]
B
Certainly, Don Donald Trump, that's why he doesn't want Bill Clinton to be testifying. That's why he's out there saying, I don't like what I'm seeing.
- [22:31]
A
So if he's saying that, I mean, it's, it's, it's a serious enough possibility for him to be considering it.
- [22:36]
B
Well, he knows, he knows that he's going to be out of power, and he knows that likelihood that Robert Garcia is going to be chairman of Oversight. And what's, what's he going to do? The first thing, we're going to subpoena Trump. So the reality is that Trump has far more at stake on this. He's the one who actually has to answer a lot of the questions. And I, I actually think Homer has set a trap, because now when you have Bill Clinton willing to testify and Hillary Clinton willing to testify, any rich and powerful person in America can evade testimony. And that is, in my view, actually a good thing. I mean, we need a clearing of this elite class, the Epstein class, that was callow, immature, reckless, that basically went to an island with a convicted pedophile, did business ventures with a convicted pedophile because they were so interested in being part of this elite because they thought they were above the law. And until there is a moral reckoning and a clearing of this class, I don't care if they're Democrats, Republicans, until there's a clearing of this class and a new moral beginning, we aren't going to restore the Democratic project. Fortunately, this is the one thing that seems to unite Americans left and right to take on this corrupt class.
- [23:47]
A
Well, look, this will be. This will be one precedent, thanks to James Comer that I'm happy to see everybody abide by. So when we get to that point where Robert Garcia is in charge of oversight and we have to invoke the Comer precedent, you know, we'll see what he's saying then. Congressman, I say this every week and I will continue to say it every week. But thank you for the work you're doing. This would not happen. We would not be here without the work that you and Thomas Massey are doing. So I appreciate it. I know that the survivors appreciate it. My audience appreciates it. And thanks for taking the time today.
- [24:18]
B
Thank you, Brian. And thank you for your work on this issue.
- [24:23]
A
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- [25:37]
C
Hey Brian, great to talk to you again. Thank you.
- [25:39]
A
So, Ari, you are one of the premier reporters in the country when it comes to voting rights. You do excellent work as we see all of these threats continue to bear down at the hands of Trump, whether it's sending the FBI to an election office in Fulton county to grab all of the 2020 ballots, whether it's Pam Bondi sending a letter to Minnesota at the peak of the violence at the hands of ICE and saying we can pull back, but it's gonna cost you your voting rolls. As all of this is happening, what do you think is the most pronounced threat that we're contending with, and what do you think the impact is gonna be on 2026?
- [26:15]
C
I think all of these tactics by the Trump administration have a common theme, which is using the full force of the federal government, whether it's the FBI, DOJ, ICE, to try to interfere in the 2026 election. And it's funny to me, Brian, this is thought of as a hypothetical. I keep seeing all these stories, will Trump interfere in the 2026 election? And I would argue he's already interfering in the 2026 election. When you have ICE terrorizing blue states and blue cities, when you have the FBI racing, raiding, and getting 600, 700 boxes of ballots in a key swing county, when you have the DOJ demanding people's personal information to get masked agents out of a place, I mean, I think this is already something that could lead people to choose not to vote for fear that they will be harassed at the polls or their information will be turned over to the federal government, or their secret ballot will no longer be secret. And so this is all part of a concerted strategy by Trump to interfere in the midterms. And that's how we should think about it. Not as one thing here or one thing here, but as it all being connected.
- [27:31]
A
What do you think needs to be done on the state level or the federal level? Although presumably there's not much that can be done because Trump is in charge. But what needs to be done to kind of erect barriers to what's being attempted by Trump right now?
- [27:45]
C
Democrats, in the places they have power, particularly at the state and local level, need to do everything they can to try to Trump proof the system so we don't see more things like the ballots being taken out of Fulton County. We don't see more things like Trump issuing an executive order to seize voting machines and people being caught off guard. People need to think through the kind of things Trump might do. And this is not to be alarmist. It's not to be a doomer, but Trump takes things to the very edge. We saw him do it in 2020. And so people need to be prepared, for example, for him to invoke the Insurrection act, to claim a national emergency, to say that voting is so crooked, we have to take the machines and the ballots and other things like that. He can't unilaterally do it on his own. But I think we need to be prepared for Trump to push the system as far as it'll go. If he feels like he's losing power, and every day it looks more likely like he will lose power, at least his party will lose power. And that's going to make the administration become more and more extreme.
- [28:48]
A
Do you have concerns, even as we head toward midterms right now, that, that we may not have a free and fair election?
- [28:55]
C
I have concerns about how free and fair it will be. I know a lot of people just think that Trump's going to cancel the midterms altogether.
- [29:01]
A
And I don't think.
- [29:02]
C
I don't have that fear. Yeah, I don't have that fear. The President can't unilaterally do this, but the actions he's taking are very intimidating to people. And when he does things like take 700 boxes of ballots, to me, that's as much forward looking as it is backwards looking. They want these ballots in Georgia so they can say, finally, we found the evidence of fraud, however flimsy that argument will be. Therefore, that's a predicate for us being more aggressive in terms of our actions, whether, as I said, it's trying to seize ballots in future elections or take voting machines or deploy ICE or the National Guard or something else at the polls, things that we haven't seen in any previous elections. These are the kind of things that Trump is now contemplating for 2026.
- [29:50]
A
I have a theory with regard to Tulsi Gabbard, because obviously she was, you know, she caught a lot of attention because she was at the execution of that FBI search warrant in Fulton County, Georgia, and she shouldn't be there in theory. Well, nobody should be there in theory because that shouldn't have happened. But she, she in particular shouldn't have been there because her job as Director of National Intelligence is to make sure that there wouldn't be foreign interference in the election. And so I have a theory as to why she might have been there. And we've seen Trump repost, you know, crazy truth social conspiracy theories about how the Italians and the Swiss and the Chinese are all, you know, part of some grand conspiracy with Joe Biden's CIA and FBI to meddle in, you know, meddle in our elections. And so we've seen that cuff, that kind of stuff get. Get propped up by, by Trump's movement. Do you think that, that Tulsi Gabbard is there to try and kind of legitimize some crazy conspiracy theory like this so that he then has some justification to be able to say, look, Tulsi Gabber just told me that, that, you know, Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelans and the Chinese and the Italians and the Swiss all conspired with Joe Biden to rig our elections. And so now we have no choice choice but to allow me full oversight, full nationalized oversight of our elections so that I can make sure that this, this miscarriage of justice doesn't happen again. And then, you know, obviously do whatever he's trying to do which would ultimately benefit him and his party in the end. Do you think that there's some legitimacy to that theory?
- [31:16]
C
Yes, I think that's very plausible because as you said, the Director of National Intelligence is prohibited by law from taking part in domestic law enforcement operations, and her only portfolio with regards to elections is stopping foreign interference in elections. Now, we'll leave a fly the fact that the Trump administration has completely gutted protections against foreigner domestic interference in elections. But after the raid in Fulton county, there was a very revealing Reuters story that said that Gabbard's people had been in Puerto Rico looking for evidence that Venezuela interfered in Puerto Rican elections. Suddenly they're interested in what happens in Puerto Rico, I guess. But the point is, is that that.
- [31:57]
A
Was a good, that could have been a great, a great moment for the whole country to come together yesterday at the super bowl when we have like, finally the administration cares, sees Puerto Rico for something that's important.
- [32:09]
C
But finally we see why the administration cares about Puerto Rico.
- [32:12]
A
That's right.
- [32:13]
C
They didn't find the evidence, of course, of Venezuelan interference in the election. But that was a tell that Gabbard is preparing some kind of report for Trump about interference in the 2020 election. I think it's very plausible they're going to have concoct some wild theory about Venezuela interfering in the election. You've already seen people like Mike Flynn, Mike Lindell talk about this. It's in far right election denial circles. They could lean on Maduro himself to, to admit that he colluded in the 2020 election as a result of a plea deal. I mean, these things sound crazy, but once she's there trying to access the ballots. Look at the FBI raid. It raises a lot of unsettling questions about where this is all heading. And I absolutely think that Trump is going to seize on any kind of accusations to try to interfere in the midterms. And that's why the presence of Gabbard and the raid in Fulton county was so disturbing, because it's clearly a predicate for more extreme action by the administration.
- [33:14]
A
And the reality is he has these people lined up I mean, we know Maria Corina Machado, the opposition leader in Venezuela, is, you know, wrapped around Trump's finger to the point where she even gifted him her Nobel Peace Prize. Obviously, Maduro's regime, his. His vice president, who's currently in power, is only there expressly because she's willing to participate in any way that Trump wants her to participate, whether that means gifting American oil companies oil or, you know, laundering, whatever bullshit, you know, conspiracy theory gives him some justification to engage in some election interference moving forward. He's collected all of these different people around the world who need something from him, need something from the United States, and so will be perfectly willing to do what Trump already tried to do once, which is to use Zelensky, for example, to serve as a way to launder some dirt on Joe Biden. This isn't even theoretical to your point. We've seen this happen. Trump got impeached over this exact thing where he's perfectly willing to use foreign leaders to give some information that he can use to weaponize against his political opponents and benefit himself.
- [34:25]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think what we know from Trump is that he's 100% transactional, and he'll use whatever kind of leverage we have. And that's true on the foreign front, and it's also true on the domestic front. And what really makes me nervous is that all the people that might have stood up to Trump in 2020 have been replaced. I mean, there's. You can't imagine anyone in the White House today standing up to Trump and saying, don't seize the voting machines. Don't invoke the Insurrection Act. All of the crazy things he wanted to do. He was somehow talked off the ledge. And not by a bunch of moderates, but people like Attorney General Barr. Right. Or Mark Milley or whoever it may be. And Pam Bondi is not going to stand up to Trump. Tulsi Gabbard is not going to stand up to Trump. Pete Hegseth isn't going to stand up to Trump. They were put in there specifically because they wouldn't stand up to Trump. And that's why I think the possibility of Trump interfering in the midterms in a more dramatic way than he tried to do in 2020 is very much on the table because there's no one to restrain him right now. And he knows that sooner or later, he's going to have to leave. And so the last thing he wants is to spend his last two years in office being investigated over and over by a Democratic senator, a Democratic House.
- [35:45]
A
You know, Ari, we have heard Steve Bannon, for example, come out and say, damn right ICE is gonna be at the polls. And my concern with these, these troop deployments across the country is not just that, you know, that they are dangerous and unconstitutional, but also that Americans become normalized to this idea of, you know, boots on the ground. And we know that if Trump had boots on the ground in 2020, for example, when he wanted to seize the voting machines and he had moderating forces like Bill Barr, which is a crazy thing to say, but, you know, Bill Barr wasn't going to participate in this whole, you know, bogus conspiracy theory about there being fraud in the election. He himself called it bullshit. But, you know, Trump has replaced Bill Barr with Pam Bondi, and now he has boots on the ground all over the country with these ICE agents who are a low, a lawless rogue police force that's answerable to him, and they act with impunity. And so do you have any reaction here to what we've heard from Steve Bannon in terms of using these ICE agents, who, again, answerable to Trump, don't feel like the law applies to them, are ill trained, ill equipped to deal with any domestic disputes that those people are gonna be the ones that Trump decides to deploy to the polls?
- [36:57]
C
Yeah, and my concern is that ICE doesn't even need to be at the polls for it to have a suppressive effect. If ICE is doing operations in blue states and blue cities, basically making them occupied territory in the run up to the election, that's going to scare some people away from turning out. And so having them at the polls would be a dramatic escalation and one that I think would be very questionable legally in terms of their ability to be there. But even just having them around now, but certainly in the run up to the election is something that's very concerning. And I believe that that's something that Democrats should add to their list of demands in terms of agreeing to any kind of DHS funding deal. They should say, make clear that ICE has no role with regards to elections. But also, we can't have ICE operations in the run up to elections. There's things on the books, for example, like in the National Voter Registration act, you can't remove people from the rolls 90 days before the election. They should have the same kind of thing with ICE to say that we don't want any ICE activity in the run up to the election, because we've already seen how Trump's going to deploy this. He's going to specifically deploy it in Democratic areas and in swing districts to try to suppress people from voting. And it's going to be really hard to quantify how many people don't show up because they don't want to deal with that level of harassment.
- [38:18]
A
Last question here, Ari. What does success look like for this midterm cycle, and what does a lack of success look like in this midterm cycle? What are you looking at to determine whether. Whether we've had free and fair elections?
- [38:31]
C
I mean, success looks like people being willing to come out and vote a process by which they can vote and a process by which their votes count. Now, that's how things have been throughout our history. But, I mean, there's a real question about whether that's going to happen this amount of time. And I think it's very, very clear that there needs to be an extremely high level of turnout and mobilization to make those kind of things happen. That if it is a very tight election or it comes down to one state or one district or something like that, it's going to be a lot easier for Trump to interfere than if it's an overwhelming victory. The way it wouldn't look like a free and fair election is people are afraid of turning out in the first place. There's all sorts of barriers put before them to cast a ballot. And then ultimately, once they cast a ballot, those results are challenged in if Democrats win and either the result is somehow overturned or we see a replay of 2020 where the results hold. But an extreme amount of stress is put on the system. And honestly, I don't think the American system, given where we're at, can handle another 2020 right now.
- [39:44]
A
Ari, where can folks who are watching and listening see and hear more from you?
- [39:48]
C
They can read me@motherjones.com they can buy my books, Minority Rule and give us the ballot wherever books are sold. And they can find me on bluesky.
- [40:01]
A
R.I. berman well, I would highly recommend all three of those things. I do all three of those things. I've been following Ari for the entirety of my own career in digital political media, and I could not recommend highly enough. Ari, you do amazing work. Thanks for all the work you're doing and I appreciate you taking the time today.
- [40:18]
C
Thanks so much, Brian. Always great to talk to you. Keep up the good work as well.
- [40:24]
A
I'm joined now by politics reporter at the Texas Tribune, Alejandro Serrano. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [40:28]
D
Thank you for having me.
- [40:30]
A
You put together a great article that talks about the Latino situation right now in this country. We saw a realignment in 2024. We're seeing something of a new realignment right now. So I want to talk about that, especially when I talk about it in the context of, you know, how this kind of came to a head, culturally speaking, with this bad bunny super bowl show and how that kind of became a place, politicized event unto itself. But. But before we dive into all that stuff, can you talk about what the lay of the land is right now in terms of where the vast majority of Latino voters are in, you know, as part of this political coalition?
- [41:03]
D
Yeah. So I think. Thank you for having me. I think one of the big reasons that this special election for the Texas senatecy has gotten so much attention is because people are kind of pining for a measurement of what you just described. You know, how would you. How will voters react to the president's policies? And it's difficult to assess that specifically with Latinos because it's a big group, not a monolith, as we often like to say. And any number of Latinos will do any number of different things. But I think what was remarkable here in this election is that some of the biggest shifts and the swings occurred in precincts that are majority Hispanic. And there were big swings. By one estimate, Mr. Taylor remnant captured 79% of the Hispanic vote in this district. And why that might be, there's again, any number of reasons, but some of the reasons that people have pointed to is the president's immigration policies. Perhaps the economy sold this idea of the economy stuff. I'll fix it. Some folks may not be feeling that. I have not read much, I guess, analysis of specifically Texas related. But nationally there has been some surveys that Hispanics are souring on the president, so to speak, as people sometimes put it.
- [42:14]
A
So would you say that. That the, that the realignment we saw in 2024 has snapped all the way back to where it was in pre 2024 levels in terms of support for, you know, Democrats versus Republicans.
- [42:29]
D
You know, it's. It's tricky. I don't know. And I think it's. It's difficult because, you know, if it's a realignment because of how remarkable it was in 2024 for the president. But, you know, at least speaking for Texas or like analyzing Texas, the Texas GOP had made inroads across the state. And last year, the, the border got a lot of attention, rightfully so, because the president nearly swept border counties. You know, in Texas, he won 14 of 18 that are closest to the US Mexico border. But we also know that the GOP here has been making a lot of inroads in urban areas, like in the suburbs or some of these precincts that have been, you know, Democratic bastions and slowly made progress in courting those voters. So I think it's going to be probably one of the biggest questions this year going into November, like, is it going to hold? And if not, what does it mean? You know, one person kind of described it to me as Latinos who make up the majority of the population in Texas are kind of like the power brokers who don't know it yet. And I think this election is definitely going to demonstrate how that is.
- [43:31]
A
In your reporting, have you heard from any Republican officials who have expressed some degree of alarm over the situation unfolding right now?
- [43:38]
D
Yeah, there's been all sorts of takes, I think, from both sides of the aisle in response to this election. But I think one thing that has become kind of clear from it seems like Republican leaders is that it can't be ignored. Right. Like, special elections are unique, and especially this one was on a Saturday following very cold weather in Texas. We were kind of like, locked in because everything was frozen for a few days. So that affected campaigning, that affected early voting, but it was just such a big swing that a lot of people are sort of recognizing that it can't be dismissed.
- [44:13]
A
Can you speak about the prospect to that end of the new map in Texas potentially turning into a dummy mander? Because if, you know, if we. If we see the same margins that we saw in SD9, for example, kind of replicate themselves across the state, then we may be in a world where not only did Republicans not net the five seats that the map was redrawn to net, but Democrats might actually see a net gain of seats because the districts were drawn too thin.
- [44:41]
D
Well, yeah, I'll tell you that the Democrats are definitely feeling. Feeling good about the prospect that it's a dummy mander. You know, the state party had a press call last week to kind of go over this, and they see all those seats, you know, being competitive, especially even one sling in the Houston area. There's one, and there's another one free in the city. But they. Their approach right now is kind of like we're going to fight and see what happens. So I think that there is a possibility, but I think, you know, there's any number of variables that go into each election, and it's going to. I don't want to be predictive, but I think the party's definitely feeling good about, I think the prospect of that.
- [45:19]
A
Happening as it relates to Latino voters. I think that a lot of us had thought wrongly in the beginning that the only issues that Latino voters care about were issues like immigration. That was like, 10 years ago. Cut to last year. You know, Latinos kind of fell into the same bucket as everybody else where it was like the principal issue was the economy. And so I think that the administration, you know, if I had to guess, I would think that they have. Would have thought that they had more leeway to engage in what are pretty brutal immigration tactics, because it wouldn't have any impact on these Latino voters who have a lot of strength in the election, because Latino voters, much in the same way as, you know, white voters and black voters, looked at the economy and economic issue as the principal driver of where they put their votes. Do you think that was a misstep? Because now we're seeing that, in fact, it does have some impact on Latino voters, how the immigration situation is handled in this country. Very much so. In the same way that it has some impact on how. On how white people and brown people perceive this administration and perceive the overreach of this administration, but that they weren't going to be given a free pass by Latino voters just because Latino voters might have ranked the economy above immigration.
- [46:33]
D
You know, it's curious because I think again, in Texas how it's different. There's any number of things that make Texas unique. But. But the border was curious when it came to what you're describing, because I think immigration people were kind of voters, some voters were fed up with immigration. You kind of had a situation where it's their backyard. You look at cities like Eagle Pass, which became this sort of epicenter between Texas instigations with the Biden administration and its immigration policies and states rights to implement any number of immigration measures or to try to combat it. You know, and I think people, I remember I lived in Eagle Pass for half, half of the year, reporting on immigration, whatnot. And, you know, people of all political beliefs did feel kind of neglected and how that the Biden administration had not taken the issue seriously. And I think that kind of also contributed to those swings we saw in 24. But I think to your point, like that, the administration, the Trump administration, assumed that would give them a free pass. I don't know. I think it's also a combination of things because it's also the economy and the two are intertwined, especially in Texas. I mean, you look at the workforce and you look at, especially down in the border, like big industries like construction are Starting to have impacts from raids and fear, just general fear in the community. My colleagues had a story a few weeks ago how, you know, some, some companies can't even get folks to show up to work out of concern. So I think that all this is going to lead to more clarity maybe in November to see how people do vote and if there is a response to that. And obviously, you know, it's hard to measure kind of everything else that's going on, not just, you know, kind of like, like in Minnesota or in Los Angeles or in Chicago. Like, there's been, I think, a lot of action on top of the first year, which was kind of like a remarkable, like, blitz of policy changes that changed immigration in ways that are still being revealed, you know, through, through time. So I think, I hope we have more clarity on that question in the coming months and especially in November.
- [48:42]
A
Have you heard anything from Republican officials right now or Republican leadership in terms of how their strategy might change to be able to grab back some of what very much looks like a rapidly departing contingent of their coalition?
- [48:59]
D
Yeah, there's been mixed signals. I mean, one thing that we're starting to see here on the ground covering Texas politics is sort of affordability and labor. Like, it's something that both parties are talking about, which is kind of new. You know, like the governor just rolled out some endorsements from unions and is celebrating them. And in, in some instances when just looking at the GOP side, there has been some doubling down on the like sort of MAGA messaging, which is also interesting. I mean, it's primary season, you know, so kind of makes sense. But also some criticism some people had of the SD9RA case was that, you know, the GOP candidate ran it sort of like a primary, even though it was supposed, you know, it was more of a general election type of situation, meaning, you know, socially conservative issues and whatnot. So that doubling down has been curious. And I don't, I don't know if there's a bigger strategy shift, but it does seem like this, this election at the very least changed the conversation.
- [50:04]
A
So we watched as the whole super bowl situation, the halftime show with Bad Bunny. Republicans basically tried to negatively polarize the halftime show and obviously they held counter programming with Kid Rock. There was a very obvious race based component to all of this. Megyn Kelly is on her crusade saying that, you know, you gotta speak English and we don't want to see any other flags and it's America First. Rah, rah, rah. So do you think that's going to complicate Republicans plans in Texas, for example, where instead of making inroads, you know, they're taking one of the biggest Latino superstars in the world, but certainly among, you know, the Spanish speaking community which also exists in Texas, and turning him into the enemy.
- [50:49]
D
Yeah, I don't know if it's going to affect election results, so to speak, but it does appear like everywhere Bad Bunny is really popular here. Just, you know, having lived here, whenever he comes through, he sells out concert. And I think it also kind of gets to the nuance of voters. Right. Like, I don't know if that's going to be the issue that changes anyone's mind, but I do think it is kind of almost another example of all the tensions going on right now because especially our state leaders, some of them were communicating, posting on social media for people to turn into the counter programming and whatnot. So, yeah, we'll see on that.
- [51:25]
A
I mean, one might think from a political perspective that if you are seeing swings as high as, you know, 50 points from voters who had previously voted for you now are defecting to the other party and they're becoming one of the largest voting blocs in the entire state, that taking like the biggest musical artist in that community of that community and vilifying him doesn't seem like a very sound political strategy in an election year, no less.
- [51:53]
D
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens if there's any shakeout. And also, I mean, it's a long way till November.
- [51:58]
A
Yeah. And finally, let's finish off with this. Are there any races that you're keeping an eye on that might also offer some insight into these shifts in very much the same way that this Senate District 9 race did with Taylor Remitt winning prior to midterms. So that we just have a little bit more data points than we had before?
- [52:17]
D
I mean, I think writ large is all the statewide Texas races no Democrat has won one in since 1994. And the last time they came close was in 2018, which was also the midterm year response to the first Trump administration when Bethel Rourke came real close to unseating Senator Ted Cruz. So I think that there's numerous. There's obviously the top of the ticket with the senatorial race, the Senate race, but there's also other contested elections to lead state agencies that are kind of coveted roles here. Some elected officials win those and then stay in those positions for a long time. And Democrats are hoping that this might be the year.
- [52:56]
A
All right, well, we will leave it there. Alejandro for folks who are looking to read your work. Where can they go?
- [53:01]
D
Sexisttribune.org Great.
- [53:04]
A
Well, I'll put that link on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Thank you so much for the work you do and for taking the time today.
- [53:10]
D
Hey, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
- [53:13]
A
Thanks again to Ro Khanna, Ari Berman and Alejandro Serrano. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Sunday. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me Rienteller Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.