Jamie Raskin (6:57)

Really psyched to be with you Brian.

Brian Tyler Cohen (6:59)

So there is an update here as far as the Epstein files are concerned. We have a new update from the House. Can you explain what that is?

Jamie Raskin (7:06)

We had a number of women survivors who came to us with information about how Epstein had promised them when they were minors, that he would arrange for them to be admitted into NYU or Columbia and would pay for their tuition. And he used that very much as part of his recruitment and grooming mechanism. And so I've written letters to NYU and to Columbia simply demanding that they give us all the information that they've got. And we know that these are not the only schools that he potentially used in this way. And he maintained very cozy relationships with a lot of colleges and universities. Everybody knows about Larry Summers and Harvard and mit, but, you know, these were not just places where he could kind of sanitize his image, but also places that he could use as part of his recruitment of young women and dangling admission as part of entree to his world.

Brian Tyler Cohen (8:21)

As far as you're aware, was anybody else involved in all of this? Were there other people that were. That were, you know, participants? I guess really what I'm getting at here is this idea that, you know, we had members of the DOJ or the FBI come out and say that nobody else was involved, that apparently Jeffrey Epstein just trafficked a thousand girls for himself. And so does this give any insight into somebody else's involvement, you know, in this scheme, possibly at nyu, at Columbia?

Jamie Raskin (8:51)

Well, we know that that is false. We know that there were many other people of necessity, involved in this situation. But several survivors told us that their college tuition, their bureaucratic paperwork, and their expenses were. Were personally arranged by Epstein associates Darren Indyke and Richard Kahn, who were a longtime Epstein lawyer and accountant and who are now the co executors of his estate. So Epstein was the schmoozer who maintained the relationships with all of the various dignitaries and deans and professors and so on. But of course, he had a bureaucracy to follow through on the various deals he was able to make for people.

Brian Tyler Cohen (9:45)

So why. I mean, this is, I guess. I guess an oversimplistic question. But if we know. If you know that there are already other people involved in this whole scheme, then how does Trump's DOJ come off by holding these press conferences and saying that. That they have no idea of anybody else who is involved. What do. How do you. How do you have information that Trump's own doj, with full access to the Epstein files, doesn't have?

Jamie Raskin (10:11)

Well, and this has been the problem from the beginning with Cash Patel and Pam Bondi, who've tried to assure us there's nothing to see here.

Brian Tyler Cohen (10:18)

And Dan Bongino did as well.

Jamie Raskin (10:22)

They said, we've been through all the documents and there are no other crimes indicated. Of course, later they said they didn't know what was in the documents. And remember, they just found an additional million documents that mysteriously appeared. And so, I mean, we can't take anything they're saying seriously. They are in full cover up mode. Trump, who campaigned saying that all of this should be made public, is now doing everything he can to prevent the information from going public into trying to sweep everything under the rug. So you're right. It's so obvious. You don't run a billion dollar plus global sex trafficking ring of young women, including procuring spots in college classes at some of the fanciest colleges and universities in America with one person. That's not a one person operation. I mean, it takes a whole bureaucracy of complicity to make something like that happen.

Brian Tyler Cohen (11:30)

Well, kind of to that point, there is some big news that Pam Bondi is scheduled to testify in front of the House Judiciary committee. That's on February 11th, is that correct?

Jamie Raskin (11:41)

Correct.

Brian Tyler Cohen (11:41)

And so. And so what do you hope to, to accomplish when she comes and testifies before the committee?

Jamie Raskin (11:49)

Well, of course, you know, we could have a week long hearing with Pam Bondi and each of us will be limited under the Republican rules to five minutes of questioning. We've got so much to ask about, not just in the field of the Epstein cover up of this global child sex trafficking ring, but also about, for example, January 6th, the 1600 pardon insurrectionists. And the DOJ has aggressively been taking the position in court that the pardons extend even beyond what these people did on January 6 to other crimes that they may have been picked up on at the same time that they were arrested for January 6th. So, you know, drug dealing is one of those weapons charges and so on. So we want to know where all that's coming from. It's of a special importance now that they have found at least a suspect in the pipe bombings of the Democratic National Committee and the Republican national committee on January 5 and 6. Because Donald Trump's mass pardon is written in such a way that that that suspect and his lawyer are saying that he's covered by, by the pardon. Anyway, anyway, Mr. Cole, who was a pro Trump election denying Stop the steel guy, is saying that he's covered by Trump's mass pardon for the events that took place on January 6th at or near the Capitol. And they're saying they're swept into that so we want to ask about all that. We also want to ask about the attack on the FBI agents and the federal prosecutors who worked on the January 6th case. And they worked with great honor and distinction to do it. But they're being punished simply because they did their job and are have either been fired, completely dismissed or demoted to, you know, relatively menial tasks as a way to punish them for having done their job. So those are just two of many, many things that we want to look at. So we're, we have our hands full in terms of getting ready for this hearing to make sure that she doesn't get off scot free on a lot of the outrageous things taking place.

Brian Tyler Cohen (14:17)

I mean, is there anything to stop her from just saying, oh, we don't comment on an ongoing investigation, we don't comment on an ongoing investigation and then just basically using that to filibuster and not have to answer for anything that she or the department are doing?

Jamie Raskin (14:31)

Well, yeah, we expect every form of rhetorical dodge and subterfuge in terms of.

Brian Tyler Cohen (14:37)

The Epstein situation itself and Pam Bondi coming to testify. Will there be some exploration of the fact that a year ago at this point she was talking about having the full breadth of the files on her desk, only for her now to not only have refused to release the files, but is but coming out and saying that she's finding files that supposedly didn't exist five minutes ago?

Jamie Raskin (15:02)

Yeah, I mean her record is just riddled with self contradiction and inaccuracy because they claim to have wanted sunshine, but actually they want absolute darkness in a closet. They want to hide everything. And so we will definitely try to hold her account, to account for the things that she said and for the things that she's done and then very specifically try to hold her to account for turning over the documents that it's now a federal legal requirement for her to do it. I mean, they're talking about holding Bill Clinton in contempt. The person who needs to be held in contempt is Pam Bondi, who's turned over, you know, at most, what, 2 or 3% of all of the material that she is compelled by law to be turning over with respect to the Epstein file. That's where our focus should be in seeing to it that she complies with the law that we got passed after, you know, really herculean political efforts to assemble that majority to dislodge the legislation with the discharge petition.

Brian Tyler Cohen (16:18)

Can I have your reaction to the fact that James Comer, on that point of, of Comer saying that he's going to take action against Bill and Hillary Clinton for defying subpoenas, that he actually made that announcement while he was flanked by a couple of Republican congressmen, including Andy Biggs, who themselves had defied congressional subpoenas from the January 6th committee. You've got Jim Jordan saying the same thing. He also defied subpoenas. And so can you talk about this hypocrisy where you've got these Republicans demanding accountability for the very thing that they themselves committed?

Jamie Raskin (16:54)

Well, we've got all kinds of subpoena scoff laws and delinquents out there, which obviously does undermine all of the poses of outrage they want to strike about the Clintons. But you know, we're way beyond the point of trying to correct their hypocrisy. That's a lost cause. But at least we must be able to get them to comply with what the law requires. The law requires the administration to turn over all these documents. And there are a number of these people who are J6 witnesses who were subpoenaed to testify before the January 6th select committee who never did, who owe an honest accounting to Congress and the people about what they were doing on January 6th and why their names have come up in various ways with respect to Donald Trump's plot to coerce Mike Pence to nullify Electoral College votes and just give the election to Donald Trump, an election which Biden had won by more than 7 million votes.

Brian Tyler Cohen (18:00)

We'll leave it there. Congressman, as always, I appreciate the time. Thanks so much.

Jamie Raskin (18:04)

Great to be with you, Brian.

Brian Tyler Cohen (18:08)

No lies. Brought to you by BetterHelp. The new year doesn't require a new you. Maybe just a less burdened you. Therapy can help more easily identify what weighs you down and holds you back by offering an unbiased perspective to better understand your relationships, motivations and emotions. A big lesson that I've been dealing with this year is pressure. Pressure that comes with work and relationships and even my politics. And being able to work through some of that with another human being has been immensely helpful, which is why I'm such an advocate for BetterHelp. BetterHelp has quality therapists. They work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US and there's the therapist match commitment. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their more than 12 years of experience and industry leading Match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. And if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million million client reviews. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Nolie that's betterhelp.com Nolie. I'm joined now by Congressman Jared Moskowice. Thanks for joining me.

Jared Moskowitz (19:30)

Going on. Brian, how you doing?

Brian Tyler Cohen (19:31)

I'm doing all right. So you have a big hearing coming up today. In fact, by the time folks are watching or listening to this, you will already be in that hearing. But the hearing is, is regarding the pipe bomber on January six or just January six more broadly. First and foremost, can I have your reaction to the fact that we've just found out, based on, you know, analysis from the DOJ or the FBI, that the pipe bomber had voted for Donald Trump twice.

Jared Moskowitz (19:57)

Why does that surprise anyone? Everyone who came into town that day who, you know, just didn't storm the Capitol, obviously decided to go lay pipe bombs. So the hearing that I'm about to go to, I was appointed by Hakeem Jeffries to this subcommittee is to investigate January 6th and the origins of January 6th and try to rewrite history that January 6th didn't happen. It was a regular day at the Capitol. Right. They were just coming to peaceably protest and they weren't there. And cited by the president, United States, that they didn't come in and riot. They didn't come and attack police officers. None of that happened. It was just a group of interns on a regular tour. Now, that was what they promised the president who was asking for this committee. This is the first time we're meeting after the committee was created over a month ago. And we're going to talk about the pipe bomber, which is great. Look, congrats to the FBI. Glad they got the pipe bomber. We should thank law enforcement for doing their job. But obviously, this is not what the Republicans said they were going to be doing with this hearing, which is to try to rewrite January 6th. Of course, we're going to remind everyone that a year and a half later, they still haven't hung up the plaque that was passed by Congress in memory to the law enforcement officers that died that day or as a result of their injuries from January 6th.

Brian Tyler Cohen (21:11)

So I wanna switch gears a little bit here. We just had folks from Greenland and Denmark come to the White House today. To what extent do you think that this is. You know, there are a couple of schools of thought that on one hand, you know, this is yet another distraction from all of the disastrous policies being enacted by this White House, whether it's the Epstein files, whether it's the lack of affordability, and on and on. On the other hand, you know, we ignore the inane lunatic ravings of this president at our own peril, because oftentimes he makes good on the crazy shit that he says. And so when you see representatives from Denmark, from Greenland go to the White House again, how worried do you think folks should be that this administration is gonna make good on its threats?

Jared Moskowitz (21:55)

So the answer is nobody knows. Right? That's part of the chaos that Trump creates and the guessing game. I mean, obviously, look, Greenland could become the 52nd state. You know, 51 is Canada. Of course, we acquired that naturally. That was the whole first year of the Trump administration. Now Canada is near the 51st state. So Greenland will be 52. North North Dakota, if you will. And so obviously, that's the joke of all of this. Now, there is a serious policy here in that we don't want Russia or China to be setting up basis of operation to be in the waters around Greenland. So talking to NATO about that is very important. Getting. Making sure Greenland becomes a base of our operation and not the Russian and the Chinese.

Brian Tyler Cohen (22:35)

But that's something we can. We can work in partnership with Greenland.

Jared Moskowitz (22:40)

Sometimes the president has a good idea. His execution is just batshit crazy. Okay? Like, it was a good idea for the president to get other NATO countries to pay more money. Right? That was a good idea that strengthened NATO. But the way he went about it is he said, we were pulling out of NATO, we weren't going to do Article 5. Right. He started doing all these crazy things. So a lot of times he has a policy that might have some. Some points, but. But then the execution is disastrous. You know, what the President, I think, is doing, talking about creating chaos so that we can stop talking about affordability and stuff. Domestically is the president has a lot of checks on his powers. Domestically, there's Congress, there's a Supreme Court, there's states, there's state attorney generals, there's local laws. But in foreign policy, the president is king. And so I think what you're seeing is the president realizing that he doesn't have a lot of obstructions in his way. He can do what he wants foreign policy wise and for a party, a Republican Party, that's leaning towards isolationism. I mean, this is going the opposite direction. I mean, Dick Cheney would be proud about what Donald Trump is doing. You know, it's funny, they raided the house of the former NSA director, but they clearly adopted his foreign policy. It's very, it's a fascinating thing that's happening on the Republican side on this issue.

Brian Tyler Cohen (23:58)

Well, you know, I'm gonna do what the Republicans in Congress won't do, and I'm gonna ask the million dollar question here. How do we pay for it? Especially in light of the fact that we don't have enough money to continue paying for Medicaid to the tune of $17 billion. We don't have enough money to continue paying $186 billion worth of food assistance. We don't have enough money to continue these ACA subsidies for 24 million Americans. And so again, millions upon millions upon millions of Americans are gonna be contending with higher prices because we have no money to pay for anything. And yet apparently we have enough money to pay to annex a foreign country.

Jared Moskowitz (24:35)

Well, look, again, you're dealing with the Republican Party, which is a party of personality. When you said, what are the policies of the Republican Party, I would say, well, whatever Donald Trump said this morning, this afternoon, this evening, and at three in the morning, those are the policies of the day, of the Republican Party. So they don't know what they stand for or which way the wind blows until they hear, hear from Donald Trump. They are not a party of any convictions or any policies. These are not the conservatives who care about the budget. It's just whatever Donald Trump says, whenever he says it, and they have no choice but to line up behind it. And so, of course, Brian, we don't have a trillion dollars to go buy Greenland. Okay? That would have to pass Congress. He doesn't have the votes to do that, of course, but again, that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate things we'd be talking about keeping the Chinese and the Russians away, but doing it the correct way, working with our allies, figuring that out, not we're gonna come. All options are on the table. All of a sudden Delta Force is gonna come in and take Greenland.

Brian Tyler Cohen (25:29)

Well, you had mentioned that he does have constraints on his power domestically, and one of those constraints, obviously, is to interfere with the independence of the Fed. Have you heard of any pushback from your Republican colleagues, I'm sure, privately, where they're uneasy about the fact that Donald Trump is trying to basically Coerce the Fed into doing whatever he wants by dangling the prospect of criminal prosecution against Jerome Powell.

Jared Moskowitz (25:56)

No, the President stepped in shit on this one, and you can just see it because the President is distancing himself from it. This is a guy who likes to take credit for everything, and now he's saying, oh, I didn't know. Well, the reason he didn't know is he heard from his treasury secretary or heard from the bondholders that this would be disastrous for monetary policy. We heard from Jamie Dimon, who we know the President respects that this actually would raise interest rates. We heard from every living Fed chair that this was an overreach by the President. We heard from former treasury secretaries that this was disastrous. We heard from a dozen nations and their monetary leaders who do business with the United States that this would undermine our credibility. And so, look, I know the President is interested in Venezuela, but we don't want Venezuelan monetary policy here in America. And so, yeah, there were a half a dozen Republican senators who came out against this. I know the majority of my colleagues, even if they're afraid to speak, are against this. It's what separates us from many nations, is that we have independent monetary policy that isn't weaponized based on the partisanship of the moment. Look, Jay Powell didn't know, okay, some facts about the building that the Fed was building. Thank God. Thank God Jay Powell's more focused on the monetary policy than what's going on in the building that the Fed is building. I know the President knows a lot about his ballroom, okay, and that Jake Powell didn't know the construction of his building. But Jake Powell is focused, obviously, on trying to lower interest rates, trying to make sure that we're creating jobs, trying to ease us still out of the pandemic and keep us competitive around the world. And by the way, whatever overruns are at that Fed building, I remind everybody that the ballroom right now is costing twice the amount of money the President said it was gonna cost. It'll be triple or quadruple by the time we're done with it. That's not a reason to do what they're doing here. This is all about intimidation. It's all about weaponization of the Justice Department. Jim Jordan should know all about that. He chaired a committee on that last Congress. And look, Jay Powell is not going to be deterred. I actually think this brings all of the other representatives from the Fed to Jay Powell's aid and does the exact opposite of what the President's really trying to accomplish here.

Brian Tyler Cohen (28:05)

The reality is, though, there are only a few months left in Jerome Powell's term. And so don't we end up in the same place where it becomes clear what the next Fed chair, what the next Fed chair's job is, in effect, which is just to basically to cow to Trump, to listen to whatever he says. And that's gonna be like, we know that Kristi Noem is there because she is a Trump supplicant. We know that Pete Hegseth is there for the same reason that Marco Rubio is there for the same reason. RFK Jr there for the same reason. And Trump is making it clear by virtue of these threats that even if he can have some impact on Jerome Powell, that the next guy is going to have to listen to him, to bend to his every whim. And so isn't the issue of coercion basically eliminating the independence of the Fed still very much on the table by virtue of what we're seeing right now?

Jared Moskowitz (28:55)

Well, of course. And since that the market has gone down several days since the President started this. Yeah. By the way, Jerome, even though he won't be the head of the Fed in a couple of months, he still has another year on his term. So if you're, if you're now investigating him and doing this, this stuff, one can make an argument that now Jerome's going to stay. Maybe he doesn't stay as the chair, but he stays as a member of the board. So I actually think that this, this is not. Was not in the President's best interest. Was not in the country's best interest. But that's the problem. Sometimes you got people in departments that read a tweet, hear something the President says, and they go and act on it and do it, and, you know, and then. And creates chaos. You know, whether this was, you know, Bill Pulte or Jeanine Pirro, you know, trying to, trying to cope with this. And the President actually didn't greenlight this. I think that's very plausible. But it's caused now, I think, tremendous angst among the business community and amongst our monetary allies about can the United States continue to still be the place in the world that the entire world's economy focuses on? Our dollar is dropping de dollarization is something that the Russians and the Chinese are working on. I mean, there are dramatic repercussions in the bond industry if people stop buying our bonds, if they stop buying our bonds, we can't continue to spend money and we go into a depression. I mean, period is what happens there.

Brian Tyler Cohen (30:17)

Last topic here. I want to talk about Dan Bongino, who has emerged as this white knight in the aftermath of what he very much feels like is some, like, victorious term as deputy FBI director, you know, in the aftermath of all of his work helping cover up the Epstein files, which is the principal issue that he staked his brand on before coming into government. And so can I just have your reaction to this idea that Dan Bongino is like, this crusade, is still trying to cling onto this branding as some crusader for accountability and transparency in the aftermath of probably the least transparent FBI director term that in living memory.

Jared Moskowitz (31:00)

Well, look, I appreciate Dan Bongino fighting Republican grifters online on anti Semitism and the stuff that you see coming out of Tucker and Candace Owens and the conspiracy theory. So I appreciate that at the moment, but let's not pretend like the last year didn't happen. I mean, this is a guy who got his job on the Epstein files, talking about Epstein, talking about getting them released, and then as soon as he got there and read that Trump's name is in it hundreds of times and he's on the flight logs, all of a sudden, Dan Bongino felt like, oh, I'm in an office with four walls and I'm uncomfortable. Let me go back to my podcast. Yeah. The whole reason he got hired was the Epstein files. And as it turned out, he had to leave because of the Epstein files.

Brian Tyler Cohen (31:45)

Do you think that. Do you think that his audience is going to. Is going to stick around while he pretends that he has some credibility still?

Jared Moskowitz (31:52)

Oh, who knows? I mean, look, the Republican online audience, you could do a mental health case study on it, on what's going on between the Candace Owens and the Dave Smiths and the Nick Fuentes and Joe Rogan who yesterday came out and called ICE the Gestapo. I mean, it's fascinating on what's going on in Republican podcasting. There's splits all within MAGA over all of it. And so it's a. It's a fascinating thing to watch. It's not healthy for the country or for the American people, but from a. From a.

Brian Tyler Cohen (32:26)

When has that ever stopped us before?

Jared Moskowitz (32:28)

Of course. Are you not entertained, Brian?

Brian Tyler Cohen (32:31)

Yeah. All right, we'll leave it there. Congressman, I appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

Jared Moskowitz (32:34)

Thanks, buddy.

Brian Tyler Cohen (32:38)

No lie is brought to you by Factor. A recurring theme in my life is that I desperately want to eat better, but there are literally not enough hours in the day. Factor doesn't ask you to meal prep or follow recipes. It just removes the entire problem. Two minutes. Real food. Done. So there was A time in my life where I actually cooked for myself. That time is long gone. I don't think I've touched the saucepan in 10 years. Not because I don't want to, but I simply don't have the time. The reality is that you're not failing at eating healthy. You're failing at having three extra hours every night. Factors already made by chefs, designed by dietitians and delivered right to your door. You heat it for two minutes and eat. So let's talk about what's inside. Lean proteins, colorful vegetables, whole food ingredients, healthy fats. The stuff that you would make if you had the time. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, no refined seed oils. I just ate the filet mignon and shrimp with potatoes. Legit restaurant quality. I don't know what else to say other than it was so good and so clean. Factor fits your life, not somebody else's plan. There are a hundred rotating meals every week. High protein, calorie, smart, Mediterranean, GLP1 support, ready to eat salads, A new muscle pro collection for strength and recovery. You pick what fits your goals. Healthier eating, calorie management, more protein, whatever you're actually trying to do. And what you get is always fresh, never frozen. Ready in two minutes. No prep, no cleanup, no mental load. This isn't motivation to eat better. This is the elimination of the reason that you don't. I'm super careful about what goes in my body. I could not recommend factor highly enough. I've eaten it every day this week. You absolutely should, too. Head to FactorMeals.com BTC50OFF and use code BTC50OFF to get 50% off your first Factor box. Plus free breakfast for a year offer only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with factor. I'm joined now by candidate for the U.S. senate in Michigan, Abdul El Sayed. Abdul, thanks for joining me.

Abdul El Sayed (34:37)

Thank you for having me. Like, in the flesh in the studio.

Brian Tyler Cohen (34:39)

That's right.

Abdul El Sayed (34:40)

I feel very honored. I mean, amazing to be with. Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Tyler Cohen (34:43)

So let's talk about the middle finger. This is Donald Trump went into a plant in Michigan, decided to give the finger to a worker there. Is that not just the most perfect microcosm for Trump's whole presidency that you've seen?

Abdul El Sayed (34:57)

I mean, the thing about it is, like, he's talking to him from above. Him? Yeah, he like flips him the bird and he drops the F bomb against him twice. This is how he feels about Working people. And that's the thing about, is like, he couldn't just be bigger and be like, I'm the most powerful person in the whole world. He had to, he had to tell him how he felt. I mean like, and this is, this is par for the course of Trump.

Brian Tyler Cohen (35:20)

I mean, what does it say that he also.

Abdul El Sayed (35:22)

That hero. Can we have a minute for that guy?

Jared Moskowitz (35:24)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (35:25)

Also there's a gofundme for him. Please do. I mean, and it's crazy that like, yeah, Ford, I mean, the idea that Ford suspended him to me is crazy. Right? That's his first amendment rights. He was practicing. They decided to bring the President United States stopped the line so he could walk and now that guy gets suspended. Crazy. Anyway.

Brian Tyler Cohen (35:42)

Well, what does it say that something as inconsequential as somebody just saying, you know, giving, calling him a pedophile potential, which by the way, not, not inconsequential. Yeah, yeah, but like, based on some very good evidence. But yeah, what does it say that the President of the United States can allow, can, can allow something like that to get under his skin? What are the implications of the fact that we have somebody so, so thin skinned, so impulsive that that's what bugs him to that degree, that he'll say fuck you as the President of the United States with all the cameras in the world on him to some guy working on the line at a car plant.

Abdul El Sayed (36:16)

I think we're seeing it play out live in living color. I mean, you look at the raid to depose Maduro, a lot of folks inside the White House say that the last straw was that Maduro did a dance that was similar to, to his dance. Yeah. Like this is the reason why you, you spend nearly a billion dollars of taxpayer money to depose a, a foreign leader. Okay. You're also seeing it in his choices. When it comes to Minneapolis, they can't admit that poorly trained officers shot a woman in the face and that it was wrong and that there should be an investigation about how they used the power of, of the United States government against a 37 year old mom. And now he's just sending more ICE agents to Minneapolis. You see it in the choice to probe a sitting US Senator from my state because she had the audacity to remind the troops what their responsibilities were based on international and American law. All of this goes back to the fact that he thinks that the most important thing he can do is to respond to spites against him personally. For him, the entire United States government is, is being used as, as a Tool for his own revenge. And I mean, the last point is the Fed chair, right?

Brian Tyler Cohen (37:41)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (37:42)

You see it every, every. All of the stories of 2026, which, by the way, is only like 14 days old. All of them go back to his own personal feelings.

Jared Moskowitz (37:50)

Right.

Brian Tyler Cohen (37:50)

I mean, not just the Fed chair. If you're talking about weaponizing the doj, you've got Letitia James, you've got James Comey, you've got Adam Schiff, which would be bad enough unto itself, but the fact that this guy came into office under this pretense that he was gonna end the weaponization of government that was apparently out of control under Merrick Garland. Merrick Garland, of all people. I wish that Merrick Garland was as rabid as Trump and Republicans have made him out to be. And yet. And yet, here we are now. You know, this is weaponization at every corner. But I'm glad you brought up ice, and I think this is a good opportunity to talk about this, not just given the fact that it's happening in Minneapolis and Minnesota, but because it's going to go everywhere. I mean, we're here in Los Angeles, and this was the first ICE deployment was here in LA, then it went to Portland, Chicago, Washington, D.C. of course it's in Minnesota. I have to ask, is ICE salvageable?

Abdul El Sayed (38:44)

No. And the way I want folks to understand it is this. Imagine you have a home that's got black bolt in it. At some point, there's nothing really you can do with that. The whole edifice has to be broken down, excised, Excised. And we need to start from scratch. Yeah. We can and should and must keep our southern border secure. We can and should be able to create a pathway to citizenship for folks. What ICE has been weaponized to do is to do two things. Number one, to attack the Constitution via the premise of immigration, and two, to normalize paramilitary forces demonstrating the raw power of the state on peaceful streets. The only. To me, the only historical precedent that we see with this is the Gestapo in Germany.

Brian Tyler Cohen (39:41)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (39:41)

And you could have seen it coming back in 2018. I said we should abolish ICE. And I said that because all you had to do was connect the dots around what this agency was being told to do, how it was being weaponized, how it was being held apart from the usual laws that protect citizens from the state, how he was attempting to normalize the violence it was doing. And then watching at the beginning of the second term as he put that on steroids. $185 billion budget, that is more than the budget of the FBI. That is more than the budget of the U.S. marines.

Brian Tyler Cohen (40:23)

Yeah. It would make it, I think, the sixth biggest military in the world. Yeah. Just ice. Just ice, yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (40:31)

And. And the premise that was sold to the American public was that somehow migrant crime was different than other crime. It's not like all of a sudden, there's not a police force that polices migrants. Right. Crime is crime. You police crime. But that idea was that ICE was going to keep you safe. Now ask yourself whether or not we are safer when they are shooting mothers in the face. And this is where we are now. And the response isn't to hold accountable the state against its people as the Constitution would require. The response is to double down when it's so obvious that this agency has run amok because of the incentives that it's created, because of the people that they've. They've recruited to do this. And I. The worry that I have is that we're not even in the first year yet. The first year is, is not even over of his tenure. He's got three more of these. Yeah.

Brian Tyler Cohen (41:20)

There was an iteration of the Republican Party way back just a few years ago that used to. That used to claim that the Second Amendment was so important expressly because of it being a way to defend against the tyrannical government. A big overreaching government. Exactly the kind of government that we're seeing right now. And I know that the Overton window shifts so much that it almost like for us to do this exercise where we say, oh, you used to, you used to say this. You're being hypocritical. It's like, yeah, that, that, you know, that ship has sailed years ago at this point. But in your travels, at least with the folks that you've spoken with, is there anybody in the center or the right that is viewing this through the prism of some, you know, traditional Republican or conservative mentality where, hey, maybe it's not great to have some like, rogue jackbooted thug agency fucking shooting people in the face and killing them with complete impunity. Like conservatives of yesteryear used to say.

Abdul El Sayed (42:20)

You know, I'm not a conservative, but I have respect for traditional conservative thought. At least it is coherent. You look at a guy like Thomas Massie, he and I are not going to agree on most things, but at least he's internally consistent. Right. And when you look at any public official, you should ask, do your principles build out to your policy? Can I predict based on what you say you value what you're going to do. And the hard part right now is that the modern Republican Party is no longer a conservative party. We don't have a conservative party in this country anymore. You have some conservatives who call themselves Republicans who operate with the Republican Party, but are finding themselves almost at war with the Republican Party or have been kicked out of the Republican Party because now you have a party that's enthralled to the narcissism of one man. Yeah. And he is literally sucking up all of the political power that used to sit in the traditional conservative party. And the worry that I have is when you have one man who is openly musing about not holding elections, who's basically said that the only check on his power is his own broken set of morals, where do you go from here? And what I would really like is for people who believe in conservative ideology to decide to grow a set and stand up to him. Meanwhile, we're going to have to be out here fighting like hell to beat him and them in an election. And here's the worry that I have. You cannot accommodate tyranny. That's not how this works. And you're already.

Brian Tyler Cohen (44:05)

So you're not of the Bari Weiss school of both sidesism.

Abdul El Sayed (44:10)

Barry Weiss is a whole different story at this point. I mean, like, this is a woman who came to power talking about freedom of speech, except for her whole political project was to shut down any freedom of speech that mentioned the violence.

Brian Tyler Cohen (44:23)

They're actually consistent with that hypocrisy because Elon Musk did the same thing. Elon Musk came out and said, I have to buy Twitter because I need to own the town square so that we can get some true freedom of speech and legalize comedy again. And if it cost me $44 billion, so be it. And now he's out here like an hour ago, suspended Amy Klobuchar's account because she was talking. Talking down about ice. I mean, just the rank hypocrisy that we're seeing, especially on the issue of freedom of speech, is just.

Abdul El Sayed (44:49)

Is mind blowing, is disgusting. And, you know, I just. I think the hard part I have right now is that you're seeing a lot of Democrats try to appease.

Jared Moskowitz (45:00)

Right.

Abdul El Sayed (45:00)

And I just think that the way that you win an election in the year of our Lord 2026 is to say what you're for and be more compelling about what you're for than they are. Because right now, that guy came to power talking about the pain that people were feeling and about how he was going to build an economy that got us past inflation and made your life affordable again. And when I talk to people up and down my state, across the 70 cities I've been to, they're not feeling any better about things. If anything, they're feeling worse. This chaotic system of tariffs that he has created so that he could bend corporations to his whim is about enriching him and his family. This weaponization of ice against the entire Constitution is about enriching and empowering him. And so we've got to be able to call a spade a spade. And you've got a lot of folks out here being like, well, maybe you shouldn't just call it what it is.

Brian Tyler Cohen (45:51)

And you're like, y', all.

Abdul El Sayed (45:52)

I think everybody's just been waiting for folks to just say the obvious thing and say it with some courage. And so, look, you know, a lot of folks are out here like, you shouldn't say, abolish ice. I'm like, really? When that agency shot a white lady in the face with the idea that somehow their whole purpose is to protect white ladies like her from brown people.

Brian Tyler Cohen (46:15)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (46:16)

Like, tell me why we shouldn't call this out in the starkest, most obvious, most direct, most specific and most passionate way. Like, tell me why that's not what we should do, except for that you all are afraid. And fear is exactly what a narcissist will weaponize against you. It's fear. Once you decide, you're like, I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid of you. I'm not afraid of what you're going to do. I'm going to keep saying what I say. You can do whatever the fuck you want to do. I am not afraid. Once you do that, that becomes contagious, you know? I mean, like, hats off to Jerome Powell, who knew that he was like the. The model come of courage that we had in Washington, D.C. he just went right up there and been like, here's what this is about.

Brian Tyler Cohen (46:54)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (46:55)

And all of a sudden, guess what happens? Everybody around Donald Trump folds.

Brian Tyler Cohen (46:58)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (46:59)

Because guess what the thing about narcissism is? It's fragile. Once people know they can get away with shit, they keep getting away with it.

Brian Tyler Cohen (47:07)

And we've seen that play out time and time again. In fact, when ABC News capitulated to Trump early on, they thought that that would buy them space. And in fact, all that did was tell Donald Trump that they're weak, that they can be owned. And so what did he do? He did it again and again and again. And when CBS comes out and says, look, we're weak, too. We're willing to capitulate, too. Continues to trash them over and over again. It doesn't buy you anything. Like, these people think that if they can confer some goodwill onto the other side, that Donald Trump will be a good transactional partner. Transactionality only goes one way with Trump. Loyalty only goes one way with Trump. And so when they engage in this whole process thinking that they've bought themselves time, thinking that they've bought themselves space, all they've done is shown him that they're just like, you know, that they're. That they're a bloody fish in the water at this point, and he's gonna come and kill him, and that's what he's done over and over again.

Abdul El Sayed (48:03)

It'd be like, there's a mosquito. You're like, listen, just bite me this one time, then go away. Yeah, that's not how it works.

Jared Moskowitz (48:07)

No.

Brian Tyler Cohen (48:07)

And he's. And that. And that he will never not be a mosquito.

Abdul El Sayed (48:11)

No. And he was going to suck the blood out of whatever he. He possibly can. And he's insatiable. That's the thing about it. He's insatiable. So, you know, this idea that somehow he'll just look past me. Now we've got to stop doing that. And as a party, if we're serious about the future, you've got to be able to stand up to him and look past him. Right. That's the thing, is you got to both be able to stand up to him and look past him and remind people that there is an after Trump. You got to make him small. And that's. You know, I think sometimes I. You know, obviously, I grew up with a name like mine, and I learned the hard way that if you let somebody take your lunch money, you're never gonna eat lunch.

Brian Tyler Cohen (48:49)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (48:49)

So I remember the first day of school, I let some kid take my lunch money. We moved, and the next time we moved, I told my dad, I was like, I'm gonna get sent home today. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, I'm just gonna get home. I just know how this is gonna play out. Right. First kid who stepped to me, I was like, I am going to beat you mercilessly. As a message to everybody else, I'm not here to fight, but if you want to step to me, I'm so sorry. Like, that's going to be the last fight you've ever had. And at that point, you're like, okay. Once you all figured out that, like, I'M going to, I'm going to fight back and if you pick on me, I'm going to pick on you harder. We've got to develop a, a sort of willingness to bully bullies. And the hard part about it is, as Democrats, it's like, you know, sometimes, sometimes high school drama is the best way to understand these political dynamics. Like, Democrats are like the cool kids, Right. And the cool kids, at the end of the day when the bully comes, they don't really know how to fight. And everybody else kind of looks at them and says, serves you right because you guys have been bullying by exclusion for a very long time. Yeah. And I think we've got to have a dynamic at this point that just says, nope, nope, nope, nope. Like we're not going to start the fight, but we're going to end it and we're going to stop excluding all of these folks. Right. Because I hate to say it, the top of the Democratic Party plays a similar game by different means. And I just think that system has got to end because there are too many people suffering on the wrong end of a system that is allowing Donald Trump and people who are sucking up to Donald Trump to take more and more away from everyday people. And that's what we see up and down our state. That's what we're seeing up and down the country.

Brian Tyler Cohen (50:20)

What happened to the kid?

Abdul El Sayed (50:21)

What'd you do to the kid?

Brian Tyler Cohen (50:22)

I'm trying to find out if an 11 year old got his ass beat.

Abdul El Sayed (50:25)

11 year old got his ass beat. I got sent home early. My dad asked me what happened. I was like the predictable situation of my name is Abdul and, and you know, at the end of the day, honestly, like, that kid never stepped to me again. In fact, he'd like cut a wide berth. And I didn't have to fight again for the rest of the year. And nobody else ever questioned me about my name. Not once. That's how it goes.

Brian Tyler Cohen (50:49)

So while I have you, I think it's important to talk about your background. You're an epidemiologist, you're a physician. What else am I forgetting here? Before we jump into the medicine stuff.

Abdul El Sayed (50:57)

You got stuff.

Jamie Raskin (50:57)

You got it.

Brian Tyler Cohen (50:58)

No, look, you're also a Rhodes scholar.

Abdul El Sayed (51:01)

Did a lot of school, spent way too much time in school.

Brian Tyler Cohen (51:04)

So I want to talk about Medicare for all for a moment. And I've spoken to Senator Sanders about this. I, I have been advocating for this for as long as I've been doing political media. But it always, I mean, except for a small moment in the 2020 primary where you had a few candidates who, you know, wanted it, a few who didn't. And it became like this lightning rod issue where, you know, the progressives were down for Medicare for all, universal health care, single payer health care, the moderates weren't. And if you've got, you know, half or a third of the Democratic Party that wants it and half or two thirds of the Democratic Party who don't, and then 100% of the Republican Party who doesn't, it's, you know, it's kind of doa. But I feel like we're in a different world now where we don't look at these issues through the same lens as we did before, where the, the sacrosanctity of the status quo and the system as it stands doesn't exist in the way that it used to. And we've seen that because they're not standing up to Trump. And so we don't have to think that these, that everything is immovable because Trump is tearing everything down. And so there will come a world where we have to build it back up. But do we build it back up in the exact same way that we did, or do we build it up in a way that is more just and brings more people into the process? And so, first and foremost, I understand that when people think about Medicare for All, it still feels like it's sorted into the very progressive camp. But from the folks that you've spoken with who are not necessarily super far left, does it feel like this is a moment where there's actually an embrace of something like Medicare for all?

Abdul El Sayed (52:37)

You know, once you get past the left, right, framing that all of us try to put our politics into, and you actually go out into communities across the country, and I've been doing this up and down my state, you realize that most folks don't really ask whether or not this is too progressive for me. They're asking, does this actually solve a problem I really have? And even when you go back to the passing of the aca, which was a really important moment in expanding healthcare for people, I don't want to take that away from the history of our country. President Obama called it a starter home.

Brian Tyler Cohen (53:15)

Yep.

Abdul El Sayed (53:15)

And we have since outgrown the starter home. And to me, the big failure, right, that we kind of knew existed inside the starter home, the reason we were going to outgrow it someday, is that it relied on a profit motivated health insurance industry to provide the bulk of the American public health care. And when you have profit motivated insurance and profit motivated healthcare providers. At some point, all that profit comes from somewhere, which is your and my back pocket. And we've now come to a place where that has become unsustainable. And we consistently have to patch with subsidy after subsidy to make the system sustainable and to work. And so, to your point, in an era where Donald Trump has now stripped that edifice back because he could care less about whether or not people in this country can actually afford their health care, we're now in a moment where we have to ask, okay, if the starter home wasn't working and they're breaking it down, what do we really need to build?

Brian Tyler Cohen (54:12)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (54:13)

Medicare for all is not government health care. Medicare for all is guaranteed baseline government health insurance. If you like your insurance from your employer or from your union, that can still be there for you. But if you lose your job or your factory shuts down, you shouldn't be destitute without health care. You should be able to get the health care you need and deserve without having to worry about a premium, a copay or deductible. That's not a crazy idea. And it would solve some of the biggest problems in health care. Number one, you could guarantee every single person the health care they need and deserve. Number two, our health care costs are growing at an unsustainable rate. And when you have Medicare providing the bulk of health care for the public, it can start to negotiate down prices or at least keep them from growing at the speed that they've been growing.

Brian Tyler Cohen (55:04)

And that's why it's called single payer, because instead of individuals negotiating on their own behalfs, which of course you have no economies of scale, you're not able to negotiate anything. Well, now you've got the government negotiating on behalf of 350 million people, bring the price down, just like every other industrialized country in the world is able to do. I mean, this is not some novel thing theory. Like, this is what Canada does, this is what France does, this is what Western Europe does.

Abdul El Sayed (55:28)

And we all have this like, Stockholm syndrome that we think we have the best healthcare in the world because the health insurance companies, who don't want us to touch a thing keep telling us we have the best health insurance in the world. And here's the problem with it, right? Like in Stockholm, they actually have good health care. But like our Stockholm syndrome, like, to get the average wait time to see a cardiologist, which, by the way, nobody is told to see sometime in the future, like when you need to see a cardiologist, you need to Say a cardiologist.

Brian Tyler Cohen (55:54)

Right. You're not sitting here in January and saying, like, hey, I'd love to see.

Abdul El Sayed (55:57)

Maybe I'll see one in October. Exactly. Two and a half months. That's the wait time in our country. Like, my wife and I are both doctors. Okay. And when we need to use our healthcare, you know, we do, we always just call up friends. I literally, like, I had this issue. I thought I had a stress fracture in my foot, and I was like, okay, well, how would I actually manage this? I guess I'd have to go to my portal, send a message to my doctor, and then tell them what I was feeling and then wait until they booked me for a visit to tell me that I needed an X ray and MRI to then tell me that. So I was just like, I just texted my friend, I was like, hey. But I have the privilege of having doctor friends. That's not a thing most people have.

Brian Tyler Cohen (56:39)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (56:39)

And this is the challenge in this country. Like, when everyone's trying to figure out how to end around the healthcare system, you know, it's freaking broken. Yeah. All of that goes back to health insurance. So even. Even on the doctor front.

Rob Bonta (56:50)

Right.

Abdul El Sayed (56:50)

A lot of folks are like, well, doctors are making good money. No, what's happened is you have health insurers and hospitals and clinics who have been able to use each other to consolidate in the system. Hospitals buying up hospitals, health insurance buying up health insurance. And all of the money in the system gets sucked up at the top. So if you actually look at the increase in physician or nurse pay, it's only gone up like 25% over the last 20 some years.

Brian Tyler Cohen (57:15)

Both my parents are registered nurses, so I've seen it and I've heard every complaint in the world about how the hospitals are run, about how the system is run, about. Like, you have never seen a more disillusioned perspective about healthcare than when you've spoken to nurses.

Abdul El Sayed (57:34)

I've had to walk picket lines with nurses at three hospitals in Michigan in the last year alone. And you know why? Because what'll happen is a different hospital system will buy up the local hospital. And then, because they basically all own all the local hospitals in the area, they suppress contracts for nurses because they know the nurses can't go anywhere else.

Jared Moskowitz (57:55)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (57:57)

And so they're able to suppress their wages and worse, give them unsafe staffing ratios. So you've got far too few nurses managing far too many patients, which becomes a risk to the patient.

Brian Tyler Cohen (58:09)

Right.

Abdul El Sayed (58:09)

And that's the thing people don't get. Like, when you have this kind of scenario. You yourself as a patient, assume that the hospital is operating in your best interest. But when they're not hiring enough nurses to take care of you, guess what happens?

Brian Tyler Cohen (58:22)

They're not, they're not operating in your best interest and all.

Abdul El Sayed (58:25)

Why? So they can make more money. Right. And it happens in this collusion, this evil collusion between health insurance and hospitals. So what I'm saying is, instead of having a profit motive on the health insurance and the hospital side, maybe we can just guarantee everybody health care via the federal government, which, by the way, we do for people when they get sicker anyway, after they turn 65 through Medicare.

Brian Tyler Cohen (58:45)

And that's the most popular program we have in this country. It's got 80% support in this country.

Abdul El Sayed (58:50)

Yep. And here's the crazy thing. If you actually look at where the money for healthcare comes from, 60% of medical billing comes from the federal government anyway, either through Medicaid or Medicare. So we already have a government health system. We've just created a system where private health insurance can profit off of providing insurance to people when they're their healthiest and they don't want to do it. You know, when they get sicker. They've created these advantage programs where they'll take Medicare dollars, pocket them, and then use prior authorization to gatekeep seniors from their healthcare. They do that, but the whole thing's a money grab. Right. And so we don't need private health insurance. If people want private health insurance, great. But you shouldn't have to rely on it because it's fundamentally unstable and it's created this tiered system that creates challenges for people when they actually just want to get the care that they need.

Brian Tyler Cohen (59:44)

Yeah. And by the way, I lived in France for a couple years after college and they have socialized healthcare, but then they also have a private offering. They call it a mutuelle. But it would be the same thing. I mean, you can, you can buy extra health coverage if you want it, but otherwise everybody's covered. I remember I have two herniated discs in my spine. It's a long, long time wrestling injury. And so I needed, I did like electric stim and like deep tissue massage and whatever just to like keep me in one piece. But I remember finding a doctor in France who did that for, you know, sports medicine and whatnot. And I remember going and asking how much, how much it would cost. And they, and everything gets, gets reimbursed if you lay money out. They said it would cost like, would cost like €2. And 80 cents. And I was like, €2 and 80 cents. And they were like, but you'll get it back. And she thought I was upset that I was gonna have to lay out the money. She thought I was upset that I was gonna have to like pay €2 and 80 cents. And not that I was expecting her to say that it was gonna cost like $275, you know, so we don't.

Abdul El Sayed (60:47)

Have to live this way.

Rob Bonta (60:47)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (60:48)

You know, and then the funny thing about it, right, is that the idea that you would want to do something similar to somebody in a different country is somehow so terrible. But here's the thing about it, right? It's crazy to me, right? Every country in the world has a military. Some militaries run better than other militaries, but nobody's like, well, that country has a poor run military, so our military is going to be trash too. You never hear that argument. So my point is, look, we're the United States of America. We have never settled for less than the best. Except for when it comes to health care. We're okay with middling to, I mean, complete shit infant mortality rates. There are communities in America where I worked in the city of Detroit, where infant mortality rates are similar to where my family immigrated from in Egypt. And we seem to be okay with this.

Brian Tyler Cohen (61:44)

Yeah, we don't have to live like this. We don't have to live like this.

Abdul El Sayed (61:47)

There is no reason why we cannot build the best healthcare system in the world. And right now, if you have money, you can have some of the best healthcare in the world. But if your middle income, if you're middle class in this country, you are getting healthcare that is way too expensive for far less care. That smacks you on the back end. It's the reason we have $225 billion of medical debt in this country, which is higher than the GDP of half of the United States. And like, we seem to be okay with this. We don't have to live this way.

Brian Tyler Cohen (62:20)

I would add too, the rest of the world imitates the United States at every opportunity they can. Like, again, I lived overseas. I know the extent to which our culture, our culture is exported and everybody else imports it. Everybody wants to see what's happening in our movies, our TV shows, our music, our clothing, all of it. Our dancing. Like, everything gets exported from the United States, imported into foreign countries. There is a reason that give. Even despite that mentality, nobody wants to touch our healthcare system, that nobody goes near the American healthcare system. We are the envy of no country in the world when it comes to healthcare. And but for a world so groomed into adopting American culture, the fact that nobody wants to touch our healthcare system is a testament to the fact that it is so broken and doesn't work for anybody.

Abdul El Sayed (63:10)

No. And Brian, like, here's a crazy thing. Like, we are sending billions of our dollars abroad to fund genocide and war abroad. We just spent a billion dollars to depose a foreign head of state. $185 billion ICE budget, which just to understand this, you could eliminate the medical debt in this country for somewhere between $3 billion to like $10 billion. It would be a drop in the bucket relative to the ICE budget. And we are not doing it.

Jared Moskowitz (63:38)

Yeah.

Abdul El Sayed (63:39)

That is our money. That's taxpayer dollars that we pay to the federal government so that we can weaponize a bunch of folks who are like sitting in their mom's basement playing Grand Theft Auto like five weeks ago.

Brian Tyler Cohen (63:51)

Right now they want to cosplay as soldiers by terrorizing people on the streets.

Abdul El Sayed (63:55)

Spending our money when you got people who are wallowing away in medical debt going without the health care that they need and deserve in the richest, most powerful country in the world. All of it, almost all of it goes back to decisions that get made because corporations get to buy and sell our politicians rather than being accountable to everyday people. And we don't have to live this way anymore. We really don't have to. We could make different choices. And I'm just saying that it's time for us to have an honest, direct conversation with the American public about what it looks like to actually start making different decisions.

Brian Tyler Cohen (64:29)

Perfect place to leave off for folks who are watching this right now or listening right now who want to help your campaign. Where can they go?

Abdul El Sayed (64:34)

Abdul4senate.com, follow us on socials. Abdul El Sayed E L-S A Y E D Frankly, if you just look up Abdul and Senate. I'm the only Abdul runner for Senate kind of anywhere. So I hope folks will check us out. Brian, thank you so much for having us. This was awesome. It's great to just have this conversation face to face.

Brian Tyler Cohen (64:50)

Well, thanks for coming and thank you.

Abdul El Sayed (64:51)

For the work you do.

Brian Tyler Cohen (64:54)

I'm joined now by the Attorney General of California, Rob Bonta. Thanks for joining me again.

Rob Bonta (64:58)

Great to be with you again.

Brian Tyler Cohen (65:00)

So you have a major announcement here as far as a new lawsuit against one of Elon Musk's companies is concerned. Can you explain what that lawsuit is?

Rob Bonta (65:08)

Absolutely, Brian. Today we announced the launch of an investigation into XAI for allowing GROK to generate non consensual sexually explicit images of women and children. And it is shocking. This has happened in full view of the public on the X platform over the last few weeks and it is disgusting and very possibly illegal. So we are launching an investigation to get our army around the facts. There are multiple laws in the state of California that restrict and limit the ability of platforms and entities to create sexually explicit, non consensual images just like this. And we will go where the facts and the law take us. But we are, I am very concerned, we are very disturbed about what we've seen. And so we wanted to let the public know that we are on the case, we are investigating, and if appropriate and necessary, we will take action to hold Elon Musk and Xai accountable.

Brian Tyler Cohen (66:13)

So I presume that there's going to be some defense as far as Elon Musk is concerned, that, you know, all of this is kind of an emerging technology and that you can't really, that you can't really predict what's going to happen, you know, what this technology could do until it actually does it. But what might undermine that is if this stuff was happening and it wasn't taken care of after it's already been revealed that it was happening. And so has that been the case or is this all just kind of new?

Rob Bonta (66:41)

This if, if Elon Musk and X, I say that they'd be wrong. This is not a bug. This is not a failure of existing safeguards. This is the feature. This is a design. This is intentional, deliberate, a purposeful provision of the ability of GROK to create these images. And other AI companies have put guardrails in to prevent exactly this from happening. It can be done. It should be done. And Xai has not done it. And even after the public outrage, the outcry that has occurred, the GROK continues to allow the creation of these images. It's been put behind a paywall with something called Spicy Mode. Now you have to pay to create these sexually explicit, non consensual images, but you can still create it. And that's by design as well. So Elon Musk and Xai have made their choice and they are allowing this to happen despite what the law says. And we're going to dig deep and look close, and if we find that they're breaking the law, whether it be civil laws or criminal laws, we're going to take action.

Brian Tyler Cohen (68:00)

I know that there are some laws regarding revenge porn, for example. Are there any existing laws or I guess what is this lawsuit going to be predicated on. Is there some existing law that, that you're going to lean on in your lawsuit against XAI for creating these explicit or non consensual sexual images?

Rob Bonta (68:16)

There are multiple laws that exist in the state of California, three in particular that have been created by the California legislature just recently as AI has begun to proliferate. And we have seen what is possible in terms of what AI can create with deep fakes and images like this that quote unquote undress children and women and put them in different sexually explicit situations. And so AI generated images like these are prohibited in California by at least three laws that we, that our research has revealed prohibit these types of images. And there's always been and continue to be criminal laws on the books that prohibit child pornography and certain types of child sexually abusive material. Csam. So there are laws already in place and we will be measuring the behavior against those laws to see if they violate what those laws prohibit.

Brian Tyler Cohen (69:15)

I know that it's not really your job to try and get into Elon Musk's head, but why do you presume that Elon Musk seems so, seems so reticent to actually comply with this law and to take the same precautions that other AI companies have taken? You know, far from that to your exact point, he's actually monetizing it, putting spicy mode behind a paywall so that he can continue this abusive practice but now make money from it.

Rob Bonta (69:43)

Hard to get into that head. He's always sort of exhibited an irreverence. He has claimed a commitment to sort of pure free speech as he calls it, First Amendment. Although speech can certainly be and should be regulated with appropriate time, place and manner restrictions as, as has the US.

Brian Tyler Cohen (70:06)

Supreme Court has said it, I think that it's safe to say that limits on free speech are roughly where child pornography comes into play.

Rob Bonta (70:16)

That's right. I mean, and this is just like if you use your common sense here and apply it, no matter what you claim you are, this should be nonpartisan, this should be bipartisan. This should be everybody saying we shouldn't have non consensual sexually explicit images of children in the public domain. That should be an easy one, or of women that allow women and children to be abused, harassed, mistreated. And you know, this is a no brainer. It's common sense. So hard to know what's in his head. But what should be in his head is that we should not have these images and they should not be on xai generated by grok.

Brian Tyler Cohen (70:52)

And last question on this point. What kind of damages are you seeking? What would be the consequences for Xai if you're successful in this lawsuit?

Rob Bonta (71:01)

There's a set of different remedies that we might be able to secure here. One would be what we call injunctive relief, a court order stopping the behavior going forward, stopping Grok from generating these non consensual sexually explicit images of women and children. You know, ending the practice, ending the conduct. That. That would be one. There's also civil penalties that we could secure. $25,000 per violation. And just to get a sense of how many potential violations there might be, between Christmas and New year's, there were 20,000, it's estimated, images of this type generated on X. So a lot of potential violations. And then finally, there could be criminal liability, in which case the corporation would be held accountable. We'd have to see if any individuals would as well. But usually when a corporation is held accountable, there are criminal fines and criminal penalties.

Brian Tyler Cohen (71:54)

All right, I want to switch gears here for just a quick moment because we had a judge hand down a ruling in federal court in California regarding their effort at the hands of the doj, at Trump's doj, to undermine the maps that are gonna be on the ballot for Prop 50. Can you explain a little bit of your reaction to that court ruling?

Rob Bonta (72:17)

Yes, we're very, very gratified with the court's ruling. Today, a three judge federal panel upheld the maps that the people of California created by voting overwhelmingly for Proposition 50. This is exactly what was expected. No surprise. I saw the complaint come in. I closely monitored the evidentiary hearing, multi day evidentiary hearing on the plaintiff's motion for plenary injunction. And I always thought we'd win. And we've won. The plaintiffs have argued that the maps are based on racial gerrymandering. They're wrong. They are based on. They are partisan, redistricted maps. And that is completely lawful, completely illegal. They were created in response to Texas's redistricting. And that's exactly what the proposition said that was put before the voters, that this is a partisan redistricting of maps. And that's what the court found as well, appropriately so. So we're gratified by the win. It's no surprise, but gratifying nonetheless.

Brian Tyler Cohen (73:18)

If I'm not mistaken, this is the Republicans sixth attempt to try and undermine these maps, two of which went to a judge in Cal, in Texas, that was Judge Matthew Kaczmarek, who's like one of the most pro Trump judges in the entire state of Texas. Even he not Only said no, but then threatened sanctions because the lawsuit was so frivolous. And so do you presume that we've seen the last of the litigation at the hands of these Republicans to try and undermine these matters maps?

Rob Bonta (73:47)

I don't think it'd be wise to presume that. I mean, they're working overtime, they're stretching, they're reaching. You know, the.

Jamie Raskin (73:53)

The.

Rob Bonta (73:53)

Seems like the more baseless and meritless, the better for them. Yeah, you know, I'm sure they're willing to lose a seventh time, an eighth time, and they will. You know, we've beat them back six separate times, and every time they think they've found something or have some argument and they claim they're on the verge of victory and striking down these maps. It's ridiculous. You know, this is about facts and law. Going into a court showing the receipts, showing your case, and they got nothing. And we continue to reveal that they have nothing, and we continue to beat them in court. So based on their past behavior, I'm not certain that this is over, but so be it. We'll beat them again if necessary.

Brian Tyler Cohen (74:31)

Presumably, they would always start with their best lawsuit, their strongest lawsuit. And so does the fact that we're now six lawsuits in, does that suggest that if we were to see a seventh, that it would be weaker than all of the prior lawsuits that have not only been brought, but that have been struck down in court?

Rob Bonta (74:49)

I think that's fair. Although I will say, you know, they were just kind of throwing everything against the wall. I think they were all, you know, very weak. So it's just kind of different shades of weakness and meritlessness and baselessness. And maybe they come up with some other cockamamie theory that's baseless and meritless as well. Wouldn't put it past them. It's not beyond them. I think it's an irresponsible use of the court system in a lawsuit. But if they wish to do it, they may, and we will beat them.

Brian Tyler Cohen (75:21)

You know, this lawsuit happened at the hands of the DoJ, which claimed that there shouldn't be any racial gerrymandering. Is there no irony in the fact that they've just gotten done asking the state of Texas to gerrymander racially so that they could get five seats for themselves? Like, Trump came out, said, I'm entitled to five seats. They obviously racially gerrymandered those five seats. So, you know, they're kind of speaking out of both sides of their mouth here, where they claim that it's good when it benefits them in Texas, but bad when it doesn't redound to their advantage in California.

Rob Bonta (75:51)

Yeah, ironic, hypocritical, you know, unprincipled. You can use a bunch of other words, whatever you want to call it. But they start with the outcome that they want based on their desire to seize power and have whatever power that they seek, and then they back into some cockamany theory or logic and they'll say one thing one day and something else the next day, depending on if it suits them and suits their desire for power. And you've pointed out a really key hypocrisy. Not the only one, unfortunately, but I think you really make the case there.

Brian Tyler Cohen (76:31)

Well, look, I think maybe, maybe they're hoping they'll have more luck when they carve up the maps in Venezuela or Greenland or whatever other territory they're seeking to. They're seeking to usurp and annex. With that said, thank you. Thank you, Attorney General Bonta. I appreciate your time today.

Rob Bonta (76:47)

Really great to see you again, Brian. Always a pleasure to be with you. Thank you.

Brian Tyler Cohen (76:51)

Thanks again to Jamie Raskin, Jared Moskowitz, Abdul El Sayed, and Rob Bonta. That's it for this episode. Talk to you Wednesday. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me Ryan Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.