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Brian Tyler Cohen
Going to talk about how Democrats dig themselves out of the hole that they've created.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
And I have three interviews this week. I interview Congressman Jamie Raskin about how he legally outsmarted Elon Musk, Attorney Norm Eisen about his big court win against.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Trump and being called out by Trump.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
During his DOJ press conference, and Senator Mark Kelly about Elon Musk calling him a traitor. I'm Brian Taylor Cohen, and you're listening to no Lie.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Let's get right into it.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Bad week for Democrats. We have a fundamental problem on the left with being prepared to fight. When we're in the majority, we are not willing to fully exercise our power. And when we're in the minority, even in the instances where we have leverage, we're not willing to use it there either.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
The simple question here becomes why should.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
People vote to give you power if you're not going to wield it once you have it?
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Like the problem with last week's continuing.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Resolution, the cross is that we were.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Led to believe that we would use.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
It to extract concessions from the right if ever Democrats were gonna come on board. After all, it required 60 votes in the Senate. Republicans only have 53. They would need our buy in and so use it to neuter Doge's overreach. Use it to prevent federal firings. Use it to ice out Elon Musk. Use it to guarantee protections for Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. Use it in some way to garner concessions. That didn't happen to the CR passed and it included major cuts to federal programs. And the Democrats have nothing to show for it other than the government being open. Look, there were some arguments that were persuasive to me in terms of why it was important to keep the government open. First and foremost. For me, the courts essentially stopped functioning. The courts are our best bulwark against Trump. They are why his attacks on birthright citizenship aren't working. The courts are why the fired probationary employees have to be reinstated. The courts are why Doge is being blocked from accessing personal identifying information from Americans. I host two legal shows on YouTube where I speak about the courts every single day. We need the courts to keep functioning because they're our best weapon right now. If the government shuts down, they stop functioning. That's persuasive for me. But the problem is that this case wasn't made beforehand. Beforehand. We were told that we were going to fight this, that we weren't going to cave, that the Republicans need us.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
And we're going to use what little.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Leverage we have and we're going to stand up and show some spine. And none of that happened. And for a Democratic base that is desperate to stand up and fight back against this administration, an administration that is waging unprecedented war on this country, this felt like betrayal. Again, at least for me. It's not necessarily about forcing the government to stay open versus shut down. That's not the principal issue here. The principal issue is that we are coming to the realization that Democrats are simply not willing to fight on the same playing field as Republicans.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
It's that the Democrats are forever going.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
To be this party that will allow the parliamentarian to shut down our entire agenda, while the Republicans won't even let the US Constitution shut down theirs. We are desperate for fighters, for brawlers, for killers.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
I think that Mitch McConnell is going.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
To live out eternity in the depths of hell for the ways that he has fundamentally broken our democracy. But you won't find anyone on the left who won't acknowledge how effective he's been at fighting and at winning and at getting what he wants. The thing is that we've already been through the part where we admonish Republicans for being hypocrites and liars, right? We've spent the last decade saying how dare you, how dare you give a.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Seat to Amy Coney Barrett but not Merrick Garland.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
How dare you say that you're gonna protect, earn benefits, but then you pass a budget cutting them? We've already done the thing where we call out their hypocrisy and their lies. It doesn't matter anymore. We are in a post hypocrisy and post truth world. It doesn't get us anywhere to call it out.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
They know.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
They don't care. So at this point, our options are that we can keep bitching and complaining.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
About it and wallowing in self pity.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
And despair that this asymmetry exists, or we can fight back. I'm tired of option one. I am desperate for option two. And I know I'm not the only one. I keep waiting for the moment where our elected officials recognize that we're clearly not there yet. The amazing thing is that normally our problem is apathy. Normally no one's paying attention, and that's our biggest problem. We've got the opposite problem right now. People are paying attention and they're agitating and they are looking to take to the streets and to town halls and they want to fight back. And most importantly, they want the people who represent us in office, who we elected, who can fight back, to use every lever at their disposal to do it. And if this crop of elected officials won't, then then people are gonna elect new ones who will. And I'm not talking progressive versus Moderate. I am talking fighters versus non fighters. Mark my words. As we head toward midterms, that's gonna be the whole ballgame. Because frankly, the future of the Democratic Party depends on it. Next up are my interviews with Jamie Raskin, Norm Eisen, and Mark Kelly.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
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Brian Tyler Cohen
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Brian Tyler Cohen
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
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Brian Tyler Cohen
By Congressman Jamie Raskin. Thanks so much for joining.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
The pleasure is mine, Brian.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
So we have seen numerous efforts by Elon Musk to try and kind of circumvent the law and tell the courts and tell the government two different things. That effort has kind of backfired at this point. Can you explain the move that you just made.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, they were trying to squeeze out of any kind of responsibility or accountability by saying that they just reported directly to the President and they weren't actually a federal agency, but they were a federal entity. The courts ruled that they were indeed a federal agency because they read their own statements and professions, that they had all kinds of power over the budget to be targeting different entities and so on. So in any event, we've got district court rulings now that they are a federal agency. Well, one of the implications of being a federal agency is you're subject to foia, and all federal agencies and departments have got to give us, the American people, we own the government, the data about us. Now, most departments and agencies have been vigilant about protecting the security and the privacy of people's information, but everybody's freaking out about Elon Musk and DOGE having control over their data because he, of course, is trying to train his whole artificial intelligence system Grok. He's trying to create, or he's trying to turn X into a financial payment system. I mean, you know, like everybody else in the Trump administration, in the Cabinet, he is trying to be both a government leader and official and employee and also run of a private corporations that get money from the government. So, you know, there's a bundle of conflicts. But in any event, the courts have said that this is a federal, federal agency. And given that it's a federal agency, we have the right to know what data they've got on us. And we have a right to know whether they've shared that with any third party, whether a private corporation or another public entity. And we got the right to, to get them to correct any inaccuracies that may have been added to our data.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
So, okay, so FOIA is Freedom of Information act, meaning when you make a request of the government, they have to tell you they have to reveal what they've been doing. And so, in theory, now, because Elon Musk. Now, because it's been ruled to be a government agency, they're subject to the same FOIA rules as every other government agency. And so my question here becomes, how do we know that they're gonna comply with these requests and that they're gonna comply accurately? Because even within, you know, I don't know how much we can trust DOGE itself to be the ones to police whether DOGE is accurately complying with the request that the government is making of it.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, and you're totally right. As far as I can tell from the DOGE website, they don't even have a FOIA unit as part of their operation.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
And the website itself shows is rife with inaccuracies. I mean, the whole point of Doge is to eliminate fraud and abuse. They have $8 million. They have $8 million cuts that are being billed as $8 billion cuts. They have things that were cut during the Biden administration or even before the Biden administration being presented as if it's happening right now. And so, just to your point, I mean, the DOGE itself is not exactly some trustworthy arbiter of what they're doing here.
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Senator Mark Kelly
No.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
And they're not in pursuit of corruption. They're not trying to ferret out waste, fraud and abuse. On the contrary, they have sacked 18 inspectors general who are the real anti corruption fighters. The people who really get rid of waste and fraud and kickbacks and corruption and abuse taking place in the departments. But those were the first people they targeted to get rid of them, clearing the way for corruption. And of course, they've dismantled enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. They're trying to clean house at the Department of Justice to essentially get rid of the Public Integrity Unit, totally demolishing the top leadership of it and so on. And we know that Elon Musk gets tens of billions of dollars in government contracts, and they're seizing control over the payment systems and over everybody's data. So look, the Privacy act of 1974 established that we all have control over our own data. I mean, that's really one of the critical differences between living in a democracy and living in a dictatorship. The government and the state doesn't own the data in us. We get to possess our own information. And so they got to turn it over. Now, DOGE doesn't seem to have an apparatus for doing that. But here's the thing, and Elon Musk is going to have to learn this quickly. Taking governmental office and power involves not just benefits of being able to control the action, but burdens, too. There are responsibilities that go along with that. So pretending to be a government leader means you've got to live up to the law. And so I sent in my privacy app FOIA request yesterday. I'm hoping to hear back shortly. But I don't have any right that 340 million other Americans don't have. I mean, I don't know that, you know, the proud boys and oath keepers are necessarily going to be sending in their requests and other people who support the billionaire cabinet. But everywhere I go, people are asking, what's the story with our data? Is it safe? There. And so we, we deserve an accounting.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
And so do you have confidence that the information that we do get back from Doge, if we get information back from Doge, I know that you mentioned that there's no apparatus to do that right now, but presumably if they want to remain in compliance with the law, they'll have to figure that out, that the information we do get back from Doge is gonna be accurate. If they say, for example, that they don't have private sensitive data from Americans, if they don't have Social Security information or tax information, whatever it may be, that if they say that, that that's.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Trustworthy, well, it's a very serious thing for them to misrepresent the status of the data that we've got. But look, I'm going into it with, with good faith and with the hope that they are going to comply with the law promptly as they must under FOIA. It's generally a 30 day period that they got, depending on, you know, what, what it is you're looking for. They've got to get back to us. And that is a for real obligation on their part. And there are opportunities for people to bring a legal action to compel production of the information if they don't produce it. And there are attorneys fees and other kinds of financial penalties that go along with the government not complying with this critical law for government accountability.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
To that point, and you had alluded to this before, the fact that Elon is really there to bolster his, his, his private businesses. What did you make of the fact that as of this recording, we're recording this on Wednesday. On Tuesday, Trump spent the day not focused on abiding by his promise to the American people during the campaign, not focused on lowering costs for Americans for rent or hous groceries or eggs, but instead basically doing an infomercial on the White House lawn for Elon's private company, Tesla.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, here's the thing that really freaked me out about that. You know, back if you can remember to the days before Donald Trump, no president ever would have had a commercial extravaganza auto showroom on the front lawn of the White House. Everybody would understand the, that violates all the rules of ethics and the basic precept also codified into law, that you can't use public property like that for the purposes of private money making. And yet we're dealing with such massive structural corruption and lawlessness that people even barely remarked upon the oddity of having this infomercial take place in the, on the front lawn of the White House. But you can view it at least emblematic of the far deeper structural corruption that's going on. And of course, like, that's the essential relationship between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. Elon Musk has put hundreds of millions of dollars into Trump's political election campaign in 2024. Trump has given him basically carte blanche over the federal government, over access to our information, over the computer systems. And to put him in a position to be looking at all of the information related to his rivals, related to his own government contracts, related to other countries, is very dangerous situation. And it gets even more serious when you look at what Elon Musk and his compatriots like Peter Thiel and Curtis Yarden believe in. I mean, these are people who believe that democracy is defunct. They believe we live in a post constitutional world. They don't believe in our Constitution. And they envision the rise of an autocratic techno state where the people who are the CEOs of the major corporations will choose the CEO of the government. Curtis Yarvin told the New York Times about a month ago that the American people have to get over their fear of dictatorship and dictators. He said that the CEOs of the major corporations are just dictators and we need a dictator to make the government work for them. And that's their vision of where we're going. And by the way, the reason why they want to pull the plug on Ukraine and give all power to Vladimir Putin to take over Europe, if that's what he wants, and Xi and China. And of course, Elon Musk is deeply implicated with the Chinese government and half of all of his business investments are in China is because they also view an autocratic new state arising in North America. That's why they keep talking about Canada and Greenland and Panama. They want a fundamental regime change. They don't believe in the United States of America, in our Constitution, as the rest of us conceivable it.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, you know, there are going to be people who say, who kind of cast off the idea that, that Donald Trump is being serious about his efforts to annex Canada as the 51st state. There are gonna be people who cast off what he says as just this, like, you know, errant synapses fire in Trump's brain. And so he acts on them until something else garners his attention. And really, he's just trying to own the news cycle. What do you say about this? Because this is a situation where now the rubbers met the road and we have tariffs that have been imposed. We have a trade war that's broken out. We have a stock market that is collapsing and entered correction territory. We a broader economy that's right now on the verge of recession. And he still is parroting, not just from the campaign trail, but from the White House briefing room and from his interviews, this idea that the only way.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
To alleviate any of this is to.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Move forward with this insane, lunatic idea that Canada has to become that has to relinquish its sovereignty and become the 51st state. And so what do you make of this? Because, again, there will be these competing factions of folks who say, like, this is just something Trump says versus the fact that, like, we are seeing market value erased by the trillions in the market right now. And the only steadfast principle that he's holding onto is this idea that he wants to annex Canada.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, I'm sure it makes Vladimir Putin very happy because all of these completely bizarre overtures towards Canada and threats against Canada and trade war moves against Canada, one of our greatest allies in the world that have been with us, you know, every step of the way through World War II and everything else, all of that ends up justifying, either deliberately or inadvertently, I would tend to think deliberately. But it either way, it ends up justifying Putin's moves against Ukraine and his bloodthirsty imperialist invasion of Ukraine and his contention that Ukraine does not exist as a independent, sovereign country and his attempts to take it over. This is a basically imperialist notion, and it's a rejection of everything that we fought for in World War II. When we got out of World War II, the whole world settled on the proposition that nations could not invade other nations and that people have sovereignty in their own countries. And we needed to organize ourselves around the principles of international law and human rights. And they have thrown all of that into a complete quagmire by validating the Russian invasion of Ukraine, by inviting China to regard Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet as their property, and now by having the United States of America make these hostile takeover maneuvers towards Canada and Greenland and Panama. I mean, again, it's been quasi normalized, but 10 years ago, people would have thought you were absolutely a raving lunatic if you said that the United States was going to try to take over Canada and turn it into a state.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, I still think we have plenty of people in this country who think you're a raving lunatic if you're saying that we should take over Canada from the United States.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
I should say, however, that if Canada were to choose to do that, we would probably add around 40 progressive Democrats to the House and progressive senators. It would do a lot for us. I don't know what it would do for them.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, first of all, yeah, it's like it's shoving them into a family that they probably the crazy family. But, yeah, I mean, this is a country that has become accustomed to universal healthcare, gun control, and environmental protection. So I'm not exactly sure the political benefit for the Republicans. But, you know, look, if Canada wants to take one for the team, we're happy to have you. Finally, Congressman, let's finish off with this. We have some pretty cataclysmic news on the economic front, and that is, for the very first time in CNN's polling history, even including his first term, Donald Trump is now underwater on the economy. So for the first time ever, not just a majority of Americans, but 56% of American disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy. That's 56 to 44. The closest he ever was to those numbers was back in 2017. December of 2017, he got to 49%. So this is a pretty massive swing, obviously, in response to the war he's waged on our own economy by virtue of these tariffs and the trade war and watching the stock market crumble. So can I have your response to this swing among the majority of Americans with regard to how Trump is handling the economy?
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, one month before the election In October of 2024, the Economist magazine had a cover story called the Envy of the World. The American Economy, the roaring American economy. And Joe Biden gave us an economy that for more than 40 straight months was 4% or less. Unemployment, the manufacturing sector came roaring back. The record, stock market, everything, you name it. The envy of the world, said the Economist magazine. And now Donald Trump is in the process of crashing it, and everybody can see it. He picked out one thing where he thought Joe Biden was weak, which was inflation. He hammered it over and over again, talked about the price of eggs. Now, the price of eggs is the highest it's ever been in American history, and the price of eggs Benedict is even much higher than that because he's betraying every value we've got in our society and our government. So I think it was always fraudulent that Donald Trump was some kind of great businessman or great economist, but they did a hell of a sell job on that. And all of it is pr, but it's a house of cards that's come crashing down. And everybody understands that there's nothing there now. And this is just within the first two months of his administration. We got to get through four years of this. He has turned our closest allies in the world into enemies. He's turned our worst enemies in the world into his personal friends and bosom buddies. He's crashed the stock market. He has fired tens of thousands of people from essential jobs like air traffic controller and food and drug and safety inspectors, Forest service, firefighters. He's undermining the government that we need to keep it all together. So all I can say is, if Vladimir Putin himself had invaded America and come up with a plan to try to destroy our economy and wreck the cohesion of our society, he could not have done better than Donald Trump has done on his own with the help of Elon Musk.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Perfectly put. We'll leave it there. Congressman, thank you as always for the work that you're doing and for taking the time today.
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Congressman Jamie Raskin
Thank you, Brian. Hang tough man.
- [25:15]
Brian Tyler Cohen
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- [26:59]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Guy named Norm Eisen. I don't even know what he looks like. His name is Norm Eisen of crew. He's been after me for nine years.
- [27:07]
Brian Tyler Cohen
I'm joined now by Norm Eisen. Norm, that clip right there that we just watched was Donald Trump name checking you during a speech that, of course, was watched by the entire nation, to say nothing of the fact that it was delivered in front of the Department of Justice. Can I have your reaction, first and foremost, to Donald Trump dragging your name into this speech?
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Attorney Norm Eisen
Brian I take the fact that the president lashed out in that way as an acknowledgment that he doesn't like losing in court. Myself and my colleagues at the State Democracy Defenders Fund have been winning a lot in stopping his unconstitutional and illegal conduct. Whenever we have a truly big win, it stimulates this kind of lash out from the president. It happened when I secured a court order protecting 6,000 people who are associated with the Department of Justice FBI agents that he was targeting simply for doing their job. We protected them from Donald Trump's targeting of them. And then this week, of course, you and I talked about it all week long. We had our big success with our partners or wonderful colleagues and clients in a San Francisco federal courtroom where we protected tens of thousands of wrongly fired government employees from illegal firing, got an order reinstating them, declaring that the of course, there's no basis to fire them. So if Donald Trump thinks that these kinds of attacks are going to slow me down or stop me, he's got another thing coming. On the contrary, it's a backhanded compliment that is only going to spur me and my colleagues at the State Democracy Defenders Fund and all of the people we work with to go even harder. Harder to defend the Constitution, to defend the laws of the country, and to push back on Donald Trump who's violating, violating those standards every day and making us all more dangerous. We're gonna continue working for the American people.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, Norm, I can say first and foremost on behalf of literally everybody who's watching this right now that that is the exact degree of fight that we have been so desperate for on the left. So thank you on behalf of everybody watching, not just for what you're doing in the courts, but also for doing it with this mentality of, like, you know, eye on the ball, let's keep going forward. Forget what Trump says to try to offer some type of a chilling effect. We have a job to do.
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Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Let's do it.
- [30:02]
Brian Tyler Cohen
I am curious, in the aftermath of the person with the biggest megaphone on the face of the earth offering up your name, specifically during a speech, what does the immediate aftermath of that look like for you personally?
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Attorney Norm Eisen
Brian, it's so emblematic of this moment in our democracy these past couple months since Donald Trump took power. Because, yes, there are threats that come in and hassles, harassment, social media and otherwise, but for every one of those, there's two or more people who are providing support and love and encouragement and go get them. And so it makes me think of this period since January 20th, where we've been in court almost every day. We filed or worked on dozens of cases, literally helped tens of thousands of people. Every time Donald Trump thinks he's going to flood the zone with his illegal conduct, we and the other great lawyers and organizations that do this work are meeting flood the zone with rule of law, shock and awe. Two for one. And he's losing again and again in court because his behavior is so illegal, it does violate the constitutional laws. So there is a silver lining to these dark times. And I believe that the public opposition is growing. The courts are pushing back on him, and the ultimate safeguard is the American people. And they now see what he's doing and they're not happy about it. And if the past hour or so is any judge, they're very supportive of those who are defending the rule of law, because I've gotten a lot of.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Attaboys, and you've got one more here. So I just want to make that clear, norm. You know, I know that what Trump relies on mostly is the fact that when he issues his edicts, when he sends down his clarion call and mobilizes his army of followers, that the goal for him is really to have a chilling effect on folks, not to push back against him. You've made it abundantly clear what your goal is in. In pushing back and not being distracted by any of his tactics here, including name checking you during his speech. But what's your message more broadly to folks who are inevitably gonna get caught up in his web, who are gonna get name checked by him, and that includes Prosecutors. That includes judges, it includes lawyers, anybody who he perceives as a threat to his unchecked power. What do you say to those people.
- [32:52]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Brian? I say to them, I got you. I have your back. And so do the thousands of wonderful attorneys, organizations, plaintiffs, clients, supporters, members of your and my social media communities. We've got you. And we're not. We are strong if we are together. That's part of the reason Brian called me right away. His first question was, are you okay? I said, yes, I'm more motivated than ever. Second question was, will you come on the show? And we're doing this together. And so they should know that they will not be alone when the spotlight turns to them. And I think if we stand together, we are stronger than the bully in chief, whose, by the way, poll numbers are plummeting. They are now deeply underwater and sinking fast.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Norm, I think one instance to your exact point, and you alluded to this before, as to why Trump is so upset to the point where he needed to name check you, is because you won a huge case just a few days ago that really pushes back on one of his biggest hopes, which was to be able to fire en masse all of these probationary employees. So can you speak about that, about that big court win just a few days back?
- [34:17]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Donald Trump has unfairly and wrongly targeted our hardworking government employees. Federal government employees, Brian. They're the ones who keep our nuclear materials safe at the Department of Energy, keep the planes in the air at the faa, deal with bird flu at the usda. There are people who are helping us all. They answer the phones when we pick up the call with a Social Security question. They fight our fires. He fired them all. Tens of thousands of people across the government called probationary employees. These are people who are in their first year of employment, first or second year, or who have just been promoted and are new.
- [35:07]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Right. So to that point, just as a quick aside, these are people who are promoted to a new position. So it's not even that. Those. Which is to say nothing of the fact that just because you're in your first or second year of government does not mean that you're unqualified.
- [35:17]
Attorney Norm Eisen
It's both.
- [35:19]
Brian Tyler Cohen
But just having these people who are promoted inherently, that means that there was a reason to promote them in the first place.
- [35:24]
Attorney Norm Eisen
They were successful.
- [35:25]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Correct. They're getting punished now because they were successful enough to have earned a promotion.
- [35:30]
Attorney Norm Eisen
And this is what keeps our government alive, because there's the ones who are promoted and there's also the new employees. These are the next generations helping us all. But we've seen Donald Trump's wrecking ball swing across the government, Brian. The planes are supposed to be staying up and bird flu is supposed to be coming down, not the opposite. Okay? And Donald Trump, and it's very unpopular with the American people. They can see that. You know, it's taking Trump, Musk and Doge. They're taking a chainsaw to the government willy nilly. So we went to court to protect these people who help all Americans, keep all Americans safe. Tens of thousands of probationary employees. And on Thursday, in a federal courtroom in San Francisco, the judge ruled that the firings were illegal at major agencies across the government, that they must stop, and that those who have been fired need to be reinstated. No wonder Donald Trump was angry. And that wasn't the only win we've had. Just the day before that, he fired the head. Another thing he's doing is going after the labor movement. He fired the head of the flra, the Federal Labor Relations Authority. Again, totally illegal, no basis for it, unconstitutionally claimed. He has absolute power. Well, he's not a king. And we won that case. We got an order saying, no, she has to be reinstated. And, you know, we've been in court with him constantly. We've been winning. We in the coalition, some big coalition, wonderful groups who've been doing this, labor movement, aclu, public citizen democracy groups. And so Donald Trump doesn't like that he's targeting me. You know what? It's the finest backhanded compliment you could ask for, and it's only a motivator. And I know my colleagues, they've been calling me from across the movement, offering me encouragement, and they feel the same way that this shows what we're doing is working. We're stopping the autocracy in its tracks.
- [37:43]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Norm, a lot of what Trump relies on as he continues to try and gut all of these career civil servants from the federal government is that he can wreak all his havoc. And then knowing full well that even if this stuff gets overturned and he'll still see a certain degree of attrition. Right? Some of these folks have already gotten different jobs. Some of these folks are so disillusioned with the process that they're probably not going to come back. And so knowing that you're winning these cases, is there a way for, to prevent Trump to continue gutting other federal agencies in advance of it happening? Or do you need it to happen before you have standing to bring the next lawsuit?
- [38:25]
Attorney Norm Eisen
You do need it to happen, but here's the beneficial effect that we've seen, Brian, because he's, you know, there's been well over 100 lawsuits and he's. And he's lost again and again and again. The net effect of it is to puncture his bubble of impunity. The impression that he can do this stuff to make courts extremely skeptical. It has a cumulative effect. And then, you know, in my case, on Thursday, the judge cut off future illegality so he can't do this same thing again and again. You need that hook of some actual harm, but then you're able to go to court and push back on it. And that's what we've been able to do. And I really, I'm one of thousands of people. So happened. Donald Trump singled me out today, but really what he's doing is saying, I'm losing in court. They're stopping me, they're frustrating me, and I'm upset about it. But for us, it's the flip side. We're winning and we're going to keep going. And so that has some of that preventative effect.
- [39:38]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Norm to that point, look, I think it's especially important to focus on what you and State Democracy Defenders are actually doing. The fact that you're putting yourselves out there, that you are actually joining this fight. You're not just talking, you're doing. I know that there are gonna be folks who want to help you, who are looking for fighters out there. And so how can folks who are watching right now help your efforts?
- [40:00]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Come to the State Democracy Defenders Fund website. There's a link you can click to contribute, but you can also.
- [40:09]
Brian Tyler Cohen
I'm gonna put that link. I'm gonna put that link right here on the screen embedded. And I'm also gonna put it in the post description of this video. Video. So anybody watching, you'll have no problem finding it.
- [40:18]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Thank you, Brian. And by supporting our work, whether you make a financial contribution or you just learn about all the cases, I'll warn you in advance is a long list of cases that we've brought and won on the website. You can be part of this peaceful, lawful, but vigorous effort to push back on the autocracy in our country. And you know the best thing about it, Brian, is the lawsuits stop Trump. But they also give people hope. I have found that there is a hunger out in the country and much more. I know you cover this. The mainstream media doesn't always the energy out there to object to authoritarianism, to work for the restoration of our American democracy and to make it even better is so strong. And we're seeing that spontaneously all over the country. Tens of thousands of people protesting in various ways. God bless you for doing that and of course for supporting State Democracy Defenders Fund and me.
- [41:28]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, Norm, again, look, everyone is looking for the fighters right now. That is going to be what protects this democracy from the worst impulses of this administration and you are chief among them. So thanks for the work you're doing. Again, for everybody watching right now, if you want to support Norm and his team, check out the link in the post description of this video for State Democracy Defenders. Norm Eisen, appreciate you taking the time.
- [41:50]
Attorney Norm Eisen
Thanks as always, Brian.
- [41:55]
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- [42:53]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Now by the US Senator from Arizona, Mark Kelly.
- [42:55]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Thank you so much for taking the time.
- [42:57]
Senator Mark Kelly
Brian, thank you for having me on.
- [42:59]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So a lot to talk about. Obviously the big issue right now is the continuing resolution, the CR which will determine whether or not the government stays open. But first just wanted to dive into a topic that had been circulating between you and Elon Musk, and that is that you had reiterated your support online for Ukraine, which to remind everybody is a functioning democracy in their battle against Russia, which is was not a democracy.
- [43:23]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
And Elon Musk had come out and.
- [43:25]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Called you a traitor for expressing your support for that democracy.
- [43:29]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Can I have your reaction to that?
- [43:31]
Senator Mark Kelly
Well, he's not a serious guy. I've sort of known him a little bit over a decade. I used to do some stuff with SpaceX and crew safety and I used to take him seriously, especially in his role at SpaceX, role as the CEO and the chief engineer. And I don't know what happened to him. You know, that he, he suddenly decides it's a good idea to spend a quarter of a billion dollars to make sure Donald Trump's the next president. For what? To what end? Right. You always got to be suspicious of a billionaire who's trying to get people elected to office and then shows up in the administration as some special. I don't know what that means, special government employee, and then brings a wrecking ball immediately to the federal government, ruining people's lives, including the lives of. So I go to Ukraine. Part of my job. We are our own branch of government. Right. I don't work for the President of the United States, and I certainly do not work for Elon Musk. I work for the people of Arizona, and I'm on the Armed Services Committee. I'm on the Intelligence Committee. My job is to get out there in these spots where we've got to make some tough decisions in Congress. The President, he has his decisions to make. I've got my decisions to make. So in that role, I'm there, I'm speaking to the head of intelligence of the Ukrainian military, the people in the Defense Department, government leaders visiting with veterans in a military hospital, meeting with F16 pilots, one that I met in Arizona, trying to figure out how things are going for them and what do they need from the US Government. And then I come back and I write about my trip. And then this guy called me a traitor.
- [45:19]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Senator Mark Kelly
I'll tell you, Brian, when I was flying combat missions over Iraq in 1991, I didn't, I didn't think there was like some snotty nosed teenager in South Africa that one day was going to call me a traitor, you know, So I was kind of shocked. But in, in the regard to, like, the world on Twitter, it's his platform. He can call me whatever he wants. I don't take him very seriously with, with that, with the, with, with the names he's going to throw at me. What I really care about is the stuff he's doing. Yeah, he, he and Donald Trump are doing significant damage to our country.
- [46:00]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, you know, to you. You had asked to what end? And I think that's an important question because we have seen instances where, where really the access that he's been given has paid off for him, literally and figuratively. There were a number of investigations or regulatory actions or fines that had been levied against Elon or his companies in almost every agency across the government. Agencies which Elon has now taken an axe to himself. Everything from the NLRB to usaid, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau would have had jurisdiction over turning Twitter into a payment processing platform, the Department of Labor, and on and on. And so those are gone by virtue of either firing the inspectors general or being able to just take people off of the boards, for example. And also we've seen how the federal government has moved to give contracts that had previously been allocated to other companies, like Verizon, for example, over to Elon's companies. And so I think the to what end Question answered itself quicker than I thought even we had anticipated when he came into government, only to watch a few weeks later him really derive these major benefits himself and his finances.
- [47:12]
Senator Mark Kelly
Yeah, he's benefiting, clearly. And they're doing this in public. They're not trying to hide it. So I think at this point, we've got to really push back and stand up for the American people. Who's going to benefit from Elon's policies? Elon, he's trying to create. He's firing all these people. Part of it is what you say, Brian. Right. He's got regulatory agencies that regulate his businesses, whether it's SpaceX or Tesla. He gets rid of those folks. It makes those businesses easier to operate, maybe financially more successful, but at the expense of the American people. Might be environmental, it might be safety. If you can get your rocket approved, the plan to launch, there might be some safety problems that come with that if you try to speed it up without the correct reviews. And in some cases, you know, I think we need to have regulatory reform, but it can't be one guy just firing the people who are regulating his businesses.
- [48:14]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Right.
- [48:14]
Senator Mark Kelly
There's that side of it. The other side is getting rid of a lot of employees. They're trying to create some. Some room in the budget so they can pass this big giant tax cut for rich people. That's part of the reason. But that what he can do is not going to be enough. So then what they're going to do, it's common. They're going to cut health care for poor people and seniors, either through Medicaid or Medicare. That is on the horizon. That's the next thing that's going to be talked about here when they get to what's called, and I hate to use the term we use here in Congress, but budget reconciliation in the Senate is their vehicle to do that.
- [48:53]
Brian Tyler Cohen
So I want to dig into that a little bit, because now we're getting into the budget stuff. Right now there is a cr. A continuing resolution on the table that would. Would determine whether or not the government either stays open or shuts down and so you've come out and opted to vote against the continuing resolution.
- [49:09]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Why did you decide to do that?
- [49:11]
Senator Mark Kelly
Well, Brian, this thing's a shit sandwich. I mean, it really is. It gives this president and Elon Musk more power to continue to wreck these government agencies and hurt people. He is ruining people's lives. I had veterans in my office about a week and a half ago that had recently received glowing performance reports.
- [49:37]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah.
- [49:37]
Senator Mark Kelly
Then this guy Elon Musk fires them for poor performance. Like three weeks later, they lose their jobs. One of these guys was, was working at a government agency. He was 100% disabled veteran. And now he's going to start a minimum wage, minimum wage job in a kitchen. He's got three kids.
- [49:56]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah.
- [49:57]
Senator Mark Kelly
This is like, this is like hitting this guy in the head with a sledgehammer. It has ruined his life and there's no reason for it. Elon thinks he's a smart guy. He's. He's pretty good at some things. He's a pretty good physicist, you know, rocket designer. He's done a pretty good job. He makes an okay car, by the way. I just got rid of mine today. I thought about driving it into the Potomac or light on fire. I did neither of those. But he's not good at this. And I hope he realizes it pretty soon that this is damaging the US Economy. It's hurting real people. It's also hurting him in some ways. By the way, if you see the stock price of Tesla.
- [50:45]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah. Down between 46 and 48% in the last three months. Not exactly a huge win.
- [50:52]
Senator Mark Kelly
It's also hurting his. It's also hurting his brand and his reputation. Yeah, I don't know if he cares about that, but he should.
- [50:59]
Brian Tyler Cohen
You know, your position is the one that's shared by everybody in the House and the vast majority of your colleagues in the Senate. And yet as of this recording, there are three senators, Chuck Schumer, Senator Cortez Masto, and Senator Fetterman, who have come out in favor of this continuing resolution to keep the government open, kind of in deference to the plan that Republicans want. And so where do you. Why is there a disconnect here and why wasn't there a line drawn sooner that basically says that if the government is gonna stay open, then we need to extract concessions from Republicans?
- [51:33]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
That didn't happen.
- [51:34]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And so really this is Republicans putting. Being able to dictate what they want to happen without any buy in from a party that they need buy in from. They need seven votes from Democrats.
- [51:44]
Senator Mark Kelly
Yeah, well, it's it's a, it's a tough call. Either decision, you can make a case for either one. Ultimately, for me, it, it really came down to we got to stand up to Donald Trump. And by the way, Republicans did not negotiate with us in good faith. So, yeah, maybe you can make an argument we should have been harder on them earlier, but that they did this, they decided to go it alone on this. It was the our way or the highway approach to keeping the government open. And that's not the way this is usually done. It's not the way it was done previously, you know, under Chuck Schumer or Mitch McConnell in the Senate or other members of the House on either side. It's usually Democrats and Republicans working together. That is not this. Having said that, I made my decision based on all the information I had, and those other folks did the same thing.
- [52:46]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And so what's your message to folks in the broader Democratic base who are seeing the kind of the disarray, not to use the Dems in disarray term, but the disarray that we're engaged in right now as we try to figure out a path forward. And our are, you know, upset about the fact that, that there isn't unanimity within the Democratic caucus in the Senate right now in, in a moment where I think what a lot of people are looking for is a sense of fight.
- [53:12]
Senator Mark Kelly
Yeah, well, we're all fighting in one way or the other. Right. And it might look like we're in disarray, like the Democrats are in disarray, but democracy messy. And this is unprecedented what these guys are doing to our democracy and our federal government. Donald Trump, as we all know, the Republicans even know this, he is a very unique figure. Whether you like them or you hate him, he is rather stands out as an individual in the world we live in. As when you consider the presidents over the last, you know, 100 years. Right.
- [53:47]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah.
- [53:47]
Senator Mark Kelly
He's doing significant damage. And what I would tell people is it's not going to be like this forever. And if we fight back, we can win elections. And we have to, we've got to push back against this president who has taken unprecedented steps that is really hurting the American people, it's hurting the economy. I mean, his tariff policy is insane. And what I think is really crazy is he's able to get members of his cabinet and members of the Republican Party in Congress to parrot these ridiculous talking points about tariffs. I don't know when these guys are going to get off the sideline and say, and look Just look at the market. The markets basically tell the truth about things, right? If you want the truth meter, watch what the markets do. And I'm usually not in favor of pointing at the stock market and saying whether president's successful or not. But in this case, when you see him announcing tariffs and then flipping back and forth kind of randomly between one amount and another, and I'm going after this country now and this thing, and I'm going to tariff champagne. So our champagne industry in the United States, which does not exist, by the way, is going to be more successful. I mean, when he's doing this crazy stuff and then you see how the stock market reacts, it's because of him. And that's the truth meter in this chaotic, dynamic time period with this kind of president.
- [55:20]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And I think what's especially ironic in all of that, to put a fine point on your point, is that the same people who just a few months back were claiming that we were in the throes of one of the worst economies in modern American history are now seeing a stock market and an economy that is aggressively worse than where we were by a marked degree. And yet they're claiming that this is an economy that's fundamentally strong, even though, again, we're in correction territory and we're seeing an overall economic downturn across the entire economy right now.
- [55:53]
Senator Mark Kelly
And Donald Trump, and then he says, well, the boom is coming. Yeah, the boom is coming. Well, it's not coming. Not if the policies stay the same. I think Goldman Sachs just put out a thing that, that somebody told me. I haven't checked it yet, but like a 1% tariff turns into like a 0.1% decrease in GDP.
- [56:14]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah. And he's talking about 200% tariffs right now.
- [56:17]
Senator Mark Kelly
Yes, exactly. When you talk about those numbers, those are big numbers. And it's going to hurt. Going to hurt people that are buying stuff and it's going to hurt workers. People will lose their jobs over. The economy will contract. We could wind up in a recession, could be a significant one. And if he keeps it up, if he keeps doubling down on stupid, it'll just continue to get worse.
- [56:44]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Perfectly put.
- [56:45]
Brian Tyler Cohen
We'll leave it there. Senator Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time today.
- [56:48]
Senator Mark Kelly
All right, Brian, thank you. Appreciate it.
- [56:51]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Thanks again to Jamie Raskin, Norm Eisen and Mark Kelly. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.
- [56:58]
Brian Tyler Cohen
You've been listening to no Lie with.
- [56:59]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber.
- [57:02]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for.
- [57:04]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
YouTube by Nicholas Nicoterra.
- [57:05]
Brian Tyler Cohen
If you want to support the show.
- [57:07]
Brian Tyler Cohen (Co-host or secondary voice)
Please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me at brianteller Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.
- [57:22]
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