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- [00:01]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Today we're going to talk about the one way for Democrats to beat Trump and Elon. And I have two interviews this week. I sit down with Pod Save America's Jon Favreau to discuss Musk's overreach. And I interview Jen Psaki to talk about Trump's lagging polling. I'm Brian Teller Cohen, and you're listening to no Lie. Okay, so we've been in the wilderness for a while now. Trump is following the Steve Bannon model of flooding the zone because he knows that he can send the media and the democrats scrambling in 10 different directions. And, and frankly, he's largely right. But we've just accidentally stumbled upon a strategy to fight back. And unlike most of what Democrats have been trying to do, this one can actually work. So here's the background. This past week, the House was out of session, which means a bunch of lawmakers held town halls in their districts. To give you a small sampling of what that looked like, this is Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman's town hall in Wisconsin's 6 congressional district. That district's been solidly Republican since 1967. More than half a century of Republican rule. Like, I'm sorry, but there are no district wide BLM protests here. And yet this is what the town hall sounded like.
- [01:07]
Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman
President Trump has issued a lot of executive orders. I think by and large this is moving very quickly compared to other administrations. And I think across the board he's done some very good things. I think.
- [01:23]
Jon Favreau
Come on.
- [01:28]
Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman
He's gotten rid of Earth Rights Citizenship.
- [01:37]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Quite a bit.
- [01:38]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Agitated. And we've seen the same thing in districts across the country, Republican districts with Republican voters who are lashing out at their elected officials because of Trump and Elon's overreach. And that's bearing itself out in the polling, too. Trump had enjoyed net positive support for the first month of his presidency. That number has flipped to net negative based on new polling from the Washington Post, from Reuters, from Quinnipiac, and from cnn. He's underwater on ending DEI programs in the government, on banning trans military members from serving, on pardoning January 6th insurrectionists, on doing mass firings of federal employees, on shutting down usaid, which provides humanitarian assistance to low income countries, and to blocking health agencies from communicating with the American public. But he's most underwater on having deputized Elon Musk. According to the Washington Post, Musk, having a prominent role in the administration is viewed as a bad thing. 54 to 28 by a nearly 2 to 1 ratio. The post Ipsos poll showed Americans Disapproved by a similarly wide margin, 52 to 26, of Musk shutting down federal government programs that he decides are unnecessary. And Americans said 63 to 34 that they are concerned about Musk's team getting access to their data, which is the subject of high profile legal fights. Even 37% of Republican leaning voters said that they are at least somewhat concerned about Musk getting their data. So clearly what Elon is doing is unpopular. Trump allowing him to do it is unpopular. And these Republican lawmakers and senators allowing Trump and Elon to usurp all of their power is also unpopular. And look, I get the gamble that these Republican officials made. They don't want to do anything to earn the scorn of Trump because he's threatened a primary challenge against them and Elon's gonna fund it, and so they just do whatever he wants.
- [03:21]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Trump.
- [03:22]
Brian Tyler Cohen
But what they didn't take into account was that if the voters themselves are lashing out, then that is a more immediate problem than the prospect of a primary challenge. And mark my words, they will be responsive to their own voters, certainly more than they're gonna be responsive to some threat by Trump. And so the answer here is to put pressure on these Republican officials because.
- [03:41]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
If they start to see that they're.
- [03:42]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Losing support from the very people who are responsible for voting them into office, then that becomes existential for them in a way that Trump's idle threats can't be. If you live in these districts, show up at these town halls, call these people, go to their field offices, go to their DC Offices, these are the.
- [04:00]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
People we need to lean on. And I know that a lot of.
- [04:02]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Our focus has been on Democrats because.
- [04:04]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Well, because they've been something of a.
- [04:06]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Disaster lately and too many of them are too old and they don't retire. But the reality is that even if we have 100% consensus among Democrats, even if Democrats are perfect, we still don't have the power to do anything. But when we start chipping away at Republicans, that's a different story. And if one Republican steps up, that then gives a permission structure for other Republicans to do the same. And remember, they've only got a three seat majority in the House, which means it doesn't take much to block Trump's agenda. But it starts by doing exactly what these constituents are doing right now, which is showing up, getting loud and voicing their dissatisfaction with what is going on in D.C. and let's be clear, doing that does not make you some radical Marxist if you're a conservative. I beg you put Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton in the shoes of Donald Trump right now. Using Elon, using the richest man in the world, using a multi billionaire donor as his personal wrecking ball for programs that people need, that conservatives need, is different from eliminating government waste. Cancer research is not government waste. Air traffic controllers are not government waste. Medicaid is not government waste. Social Security is not government waste. I get that Elon doesn't care about these things because he doesn't rely on these programs, doesn't rely on that funding.
- [05:20]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
But a hell of a lot of.
- [05:22]
Brian Tyler Cohen
People in this country do. And the only way we get to keep these programs is if Republican voters do what we're seeing the beginnings of right now, which is to speak out. Your elected officials are accountable to you, not to Donald Trump and not to Elon Musk.
- [05:36]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
The good news is that you get.
- [05:38]
Brian Tyler Cohen
To remind them of that, and the better news is that they have a vested interest in listening. Next up are my interviews with Jon Favreau and Jen Psaki. No Lie is sponsored by Acorns. What stopped you from investing in the past?
- [05:52]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
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- [05:53]
Brian Tyler Cohen
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- [06:08]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
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- [06:09]
Brian Tyler Cohen
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- [06:59]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Now by Pod Save America's Jon Favreau. Thanks for joining me.
- [07:02]
Jon Favreau
What's up, man?
- [07:03]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
So right now we're watching as Elon Musk has just taken kind of an ax to the entirety of the federal government. He's going from agency to agency. We're also seeing how all of these agencies that he's taking an axe to are agencies, agencies that were investigating him, agencies that were providing oversight against him, regulatory action against him. The inspector generals were looking into him. And so it's not just, you know, while he'll present this as like some attack against waste, fraud and abuse, in fact, Elon has derived some benefit every single step of the way. So to what extent do you think that Trump has political exposure by really offering a handout to the richest guy in the world, given that Elon is really the one that's benefiting the most from all of this?
- [07:44]
Jon Favreau
I think, and there's a bunch of polls out today, and they're consistent with polls from the last week or so that Elon is unpopular. The idea of Elon having too much power in the federal government is something people believe to be true or majority of voters believe to be true, majority of independents believe to be true. And they also, you know, I think an Echelon poll gave people two statements. You know, is Elon and Doge cutting waste, fraud and abuse the right thing to do? Or are you worried that they're gonna cut programs that people really depend on? And more people said they're worried about them cutting programs that they depend on. So I think that the most exposure that Trump and Elon both have and Republicans in general, because don't forget, not a single Republican in Congress has really spoken up in any real way against.
- [08:36]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
This is how could they have nestled in the protective warmth of Trump's colon, you know?
- [08:41]
Jon Favreau
Exactly, exactly. And if people see services cut, if people hear that safety is at risk, whether it's the people who are supposed to secure our nukes or the people who are working at the FAA to.
- [08:57]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Keep our planes in the sky, keep.
- [08:59]
Jon Favreau
Our planes in the sky, which is something I'm a one issue voter on, that, you know, if they see that, if they see a whole bunch of people fired for no reason, veterans who are manning a veterans crisis line, all this kind of stuff, then I think there's a lot of political exposure. And look, I don't, I don't know Elon's motivations, Trump motivations. It's hard to get in their head. But one thing that seems clear about the two of them, and I think why they're getting along and what's going on here is they both have authoritarian personalities, right? They don't like to be told what to do. They don't like criticism. When they want something done, they want to get it done. And so I think, you know, we saw them on Hannity's show together. Like, I really see Elon as like Trump's enforcer here, and Trump wants things done. And Elon's like, if I have to, you know, break the law, then we'll let the court sort it out. If I have to fire the wrong people, whatever. If I have to, you know, put some services at risk, benefits at risk, whatever, we'll figure it out later. It's just, it's like, move fast, break things, but it's the government. And he also doesn't know a lot about the federal government. Right. Like a smart guy can, you know, build some rockets and cars. But when it comes to the federal government, he clearly hasn't taken the time to learn anything, nor has his team. So they keep screwing up. They are showing signs of incompetence already all over the place, firing the people who working for, working on bird flu stuff to hire them back. So it's not like any of this is some grand plan. And I think the more people see chaos, incompetence, and they see a risk to themselves, then, yeah, there's gonna be political exposure for the Republican Party.
- [10:43]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Well, obviously, loss aversion is a big thing, and we're already seeing the effects of that. I mean, from Medicaid people getting blocked out of, out of these Medicaid portals. We're seeing planes crashing, colliding, falling out of the sky on a daily basis at the same time that we're seeing the FAA firing hundreds of employees. And of course they're coming out and trying to do whatever damage control can and saying that these are non essential personnel, but not great optics. When planes can't stop crashing on a daily basis and you keep gutting the agency that's responsible for aviation security. And so I'm wondering whether you think that we are already at the point where we are seeing what would be enough to really be the logical conclusion of what they're trying to do. I mean, like, how much worse can you get than slashing Medicaid? How much worse can you get than. Than cutting cancer research? How much worse can you get than cutting education funding? I mean, now you're getting into the stuff that is gonna transcend just the regular red meat for the base. Right. Like now it's stuff that actually impacts people. Republicans have family members who deal with cancer. Republicans have family members who rely on education funding. Republicans have family members who need Medicaid. And so all of these issues are now gonna touch the very people who, who, who they rely on, who compose their base. And so.
- [12:06]
Jon Favreau
Well, I mean, and Republicans and the ones who are up for election again.
- [12:11]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [12:11]
Jon Favreau
Which is not Donald Trump, but all the Republicans in Congress, they're heading into this budget fight now with this backdrop of Doge, incompetency, cuts, all the things you were just talking about affecting people. Now they're heading into this budget fight where their proposal is just a $4.5 trillion tax cut that mostly is going to benefit people like Elon and Trump. And they're going to try to find all these cuts where Trump says, we're not going to touch Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security. I don't know where else you're going to find the money. The Defense Department. But they said they also want to add funding to the Defense Department too. So I don't know what they're planning on doing here. And if the other, only other option is to cut all other spending, which is like now we're talking food, safety, transportation, all the things people count on. So I think that what Trump and Elon are doing, they're setting up the Republicans in Congress to be extremely unpopular because they're about to pass a bill that even if there was no Doge, would probably be unpopular with people because it's a huge tax cut for the rich and cuts to health care and education that people count on.
- [13:21]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And so in an environment where, where Republicans enjoy the benefit of a huge megaphone of unlimited money to really push any messages through any campaign they want to put money behind, Elon himself can fund the whole thing just out of his own on the interest that he made on his investments that day. And so in an environment like this where they are doing the most unpopular things, where they're passing a tax cut where the vast majority of the benefits are gonna be conferred to millionaires and billionaires, where they're cutting education, cutting health care, cutting earned benefits, cutting social all so that they can fund basically a gift to Elon and his donors, how would you message that? I mean, your whole background is in speechwriting. And so in an environment where we have the deck stacked against us with the size and scope of the right wing media machine, how do you get our message to break through?
- [14:15]
Jon Favreau
I think that we have so many stories right now of people who are. Have been hurt, who've lost their jobs, who are scared. And I think we need to tell those stories, and I think we need to be fighting for those people and fighting for everyone. And I don't. I don't actually think it's. I mean, we. I know we have been dissecting messaging and strategizing over it for the last several years. This, to me, is just like, be a human.
- [14:43]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [14:44]
Jon Favreau
Like you are. You know, there's a veteran who served 20 years, four tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, disabled, works at the Bronx VA Hospital, goes into his job and logs onto his computer and finds out he's fired, he's got four kids at home. Like, what. What are we doing?
- [15:02]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right? This is supposed to be, like, the big evil, diabolical, like, government waste. And like, these are regular people who are, by the way, also Republicans who just work regular jobs. Jobs that aren't just important so that people can feed their families, but that are beneficial to the country, that keep us safe, that make sure that our nukes, for example, are watched over, that make sure our food supply is safe.
- [15:22]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. Like, I don't know. I mean, we're the Democrats. We think that our job is to fight for people who are paying taxes into the government so that they can have safe roads and safe skies and that they can get government services when they need them, that there's gonna be schools for their kids, that they're gonna be retire and get their Social Security, and that they're gonna be able to get healthcare when they need it. Just basic stuff that they're gonna be able to, like, when they work really hard, that they're gonna be able to, like, not live in poverty, put food on the table. And we wanna have a government that is on the side of those people and not a government that is hollowed out so that people who don't need a tax cut, and some of them weren't even asking for it, can get more money from the government.
- [16:11]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
I'm really glad that you said the point that we can just talk to regular people who this is all impacting, because I think we fall into this trap of wanting to talk about these issues in, like, a theoretical sense. And it's hard for people to really connect with that stuff because it's just part of the political banter in the zeitgeist. Right. But to your exact point, and this is what was especially effective during the campaign, is, like, people don't have trust in politicians. They. They they trust even the commentators who are on their side. They'll trust those people more than they would the politicians. But. But you're going to have, you know, partisan affiliations clouding how people perceive even the political commentators. But when you have regular people, and this is something that Sarah Longwell has. Has talked about at Republican voters against Trump, those are the people who kind of garner the most trust among the vast majority of Americans. Those people who aren't overtly political, who just have a story to share. And by the way, that was a strategy that Democrats leaned ahead of 2018, those midterms, when really it was a referendum on trying to undo the aca. And when you can hear about the regular people across the country who that would impact, that's what really resonated. And, of course, that election was. Was, you know, a huge backlash against Trump and Republicans who are trying to strip Obamacare funding away and trying to do that repeal and replace, even though there's nothing to replace it with. But really, the benefits by virtue of making those people front and center really presented themselves in a way that we hadn't seen before. Yeah.
- [17:38]
Jon Favreau
And again, I really think at this point, I've seen a lot of Democrats and strategists and everyone else and pundits. Everyone's just overthinking everything. What I would say to a Democratic politician is just go to the Washington Post. New York Times are doing some great reporting on this. Go read some of the stories from these people and then walk away. Don't look at your phone. Don't talk to your advisors. How does it make you feel? How did reading about that story make you feel? And then go talk to people about that and go tell people what you want to do about that. Now we don't have a lot of options right now. We can make a lot of noise. We can start organizing in advance of elections. We can sue and fight in court, which Democrats are doing. They can talk about some of those.
- [18:22]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And they're being largely successful at temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions can slow.
- [18:27]
Jon Favreau
Things down in Congress as much as possible. Don't have a ton of power to do that, but, you know, we can be creative there. Creative and trying to communicate to people and get out in the country. I do think that, like, you know, I saw better o' Rourke tweet this today, but he was like, you know, everyone should say they're gonna go have town halls and. And maybe you don't have the. All the answers for when you go to the town halls and people are like, what are you gonna do about it? But I just think, like, going out there, meeting people, listening to people, trying to get their ideas. We just need to start rebuilding the muscle of organizing. And yes, no one's perfect. And some of the Democratic politicians are too old for all of this and their stuff's not landing. I get that. Right. But at some point, we all got to come together and fight this. And some people are going to be good, Some people aren't going to be good. Some people are going to emerge as new leaders. Hopefully some people aren't. But the most important thing right now is to start making these connections for people who are in an information environment where everything's just hitting them at once and be like, no, no, no, let's focus on the actual people who are getting hurt by this and forget about the. Like, we're trying to drive a wedge between Trump and Elon. Like, all this stuff. There's just like, Pfeiffer said this. Dan Pfeiffer said this the other. A couple weeks ago. And it's like, stuck with me ever since. Is that Democrats are. We're like, reading the stage directions a lot.
- [19:51]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [19:52]
Jon Favreau
You know, and you can hear that in some of the messaging. It's like, he's not. He's just. He's using the Gulf of Mexico to distract you from. He wants to give his billionaire buddies a tax break.
- [20:01]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And it's like, yeah, it's a lot of talking about what we should be talking about. Instead of just talking about it.
- [20:07]
Jon Favreau
Just talk about it. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I do think that we just need to, like, you know, get in touch with your own feelings about this.
- [20:14]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Just.
- [20:16]
Jon Favreau
And go from there.
- [20:17]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
I've noticed that too. Is that there is a lot of, like, the. And even I was. I'm guilty of this. Where I'll say, like, why isn't the media talking about this? And like, look at the asymmetry in the media. If this was happening, you know, if we saw planes falling out of the sky under Peter, you know, right wing media would be talking about this on an endless loop. And they would. But in a way, it kind of actually exacerbates our weakness because it shows that these people are gonna be like, yeah, you're right, and we don't fucking care. That's our superpower. We are past the point of shame. And so you can say this. And we know full well that if the shoe was on the other foot, we would throw a stink about this for 72 straight hours. And with you we're not gonna say a word. Cause we don't fucking care and deal with it. And so instead of talking about how that asymmetry is frustrating, just instead, like the way I've thought about it is like be the change you want to see and instead talk about it and flood the zone with the fact that they would be saying if planes were falling out of the air under Pete Buttigieg, they would be talking about it over and over. So we talk about it over and.
- [21:23]
Jon Favreau
Over, less complaining about the situation in which we find ourselves and more yelling at the people who are causing the problems.
- [21:30]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right. And so I do wanna talk about that for a minute because I think you had a front row seat unlike any other by virtue of working with Broc Obama and seeing how the right wing media ecosystem was like trained against him, was propped up in order to destroy everything that he did. And so with the Sean Duffy of it all, I mean, look, Trump came out and did all of these big actions with regard to aviation. He disbanded the aviation's Security council, he fired the FAA administrator, he even released a statement on his website saying, Donald J. Trump restore, you know, ends DEI madness and restores excellence and safety in federal aviation. And so that was him basically, basically taking full ownership of everything that would happen henceforth in aviation, only to then watch as we've, you know, seen planes collide and crash and fall out of the sky on a daily basis, that now you have Sean Duffy who's trying his level best to deflect blame any which way. And so how do you think about this where they've put their stamp of ownership on everything, only to then say, actually now that this bad stuff is happening even after we've ended dei, we're just going to go back and blame everything on Buttigieg and the Democrats and it's always their fault. We can only take acceptance for successes and we shoulder none of the blame.
- [22:52]
Jon Favreau
So on this one, I think that we have to offer people an alternative and we have to be the alternative. Right? And so our accusation is that Donald Trump and Elon Musk are like playing politics with air safety. Right? And so if we want to be the opposition, then I think what we need to do is look at the actual facts and demand answers. Right? And by that I mean there's an air traffic controller shortage and there has been for some time. What are they going to do about it? They said that they didn't lay off anyone that was critical of to air safety. Okay, fine, what does Critical mean because you laid off maintenance people, technicians. Story of a guy who. Another veteran who've been working for years and years and years as part of a group that was also understaffed to help planes avoid new hazards like cranes and buildings. Like, why did you lay those people off? Elon Musk says he's going to send in his SpaceX engineers. Great. I'm sure they can build rocket ships, but now they're just gonna run into the faa, like, what are you doing? And I think it's not even necessarily', cause, like, look, is it Trump's fault that the planes were falling out of the sky? We have no idea. Probably not in most cases. But what is true is that our safety is at risk and has been at risk for some time because the FAA is understaffed and air traffic control, in particular is understaffed. And now we have an administration who doesn't give a shit about government oversight or safety and wants everything to be as efficient and businesslike as possible, where it's like, well, that's great if you're running a company where the goal is to make a bunch of profit. But we're not trying to make a bunch of profit and run the FAA as slim and efficient as possible. We want redundancy in the faa.
- [24:44]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Fatten up the faa, because we want safety.
- [24:46]
Jon Favreau
Right. Which is why we want redundancy at the group that looks at our nukes. Right. You want extra people there. You want extra people in food safety. Right. There's some functions where, yeah, we do want a little bit bigger government because our safety is at risk, and the goal is not to just turn a profit. And I do think, like, making that argument, which is grounded in truth and facts. Ben tells people, okay, these fuckers are talking about DEI and then this plane crash, and then they're cutting that fa. What is going on? And I think we have to be like, no, there is a problem with aviation, that Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden identified that problem, working on it, and then these guys came in and they're just trying to break everything. And that's gonna put people at risk. It's gonna put people at risk.
- [25:30]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
You know, how does it make you feel, given your. Given your already strong disdain for flying, that this is the issue overtaking the country right now?
- [25:40]
Jon Favreau
Just. I mean, I'm getting just my Xanax filled up.
- [25:44]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [25:44]
Jon Favreau
For next flight.
- [25:46]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
When is the next travel?
- [25:47]
Jon Favreau
Honestly, I think I'm not flying until mid March.
- [25:49]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [25:50]
Jon Favreau
But, yeah, I'm getting on that plane and I. I'M going to have to be comose.
- [25:55]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [25:55]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Have you considered travel by boat?
- [25:58]
Jon Favreau
I get like a John Madden style bus.
- [26:00]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
It should be cheap enough because now that we own the Panama Canal, I don't think there's any fees to go through.
- [26:05]
Jon Favreau
That's. Yeah, that's.
- [26:06]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Well, thank you for joining. For everybody watching right now, please go ahead and subscribe to Positive America's YouTube channel. I'll put the link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video Favs. Thanks so much for joining.
- [26:16]
Jon Favreau
Thanks for having me.
- [26:20]
Brian Tyler Cohen
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Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
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Brian Tyler Cohen
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- [27:30]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
I'm joined now by Jen Psaki. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [27:33]
Jen Psaki
Hi Brian, Tyler Cohen, I love to see you. How are you?
- [27:36]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
I'm doing okay. It seems that I'm doing a little better than Trump this morning because we're looking at a new raft of polls that are just out. It shows his approval rating dropping into the mid-40s. Now obviously polling and the American people have a contentious relationship to say the least, but I'm wondering from your vantage after serving in a White House where the Approval rating of a president, even though a lot of us like to cast it aside, was a pretty good indicator of where he stood and how the American people viewed him. And so I'm wondering how much of a five alarm fire is the fact that already, in what should be his honeymoon period, Trump's approval is dropping even below the point that Biden's was at in this point in his presidency.
- [28:22]
Jen Psaki
Well, first of all, every White House denies they look at polls and they all pour over every poll and get updated internal polling every week. So don't let anyone tell you otherwise. And I'm sure they're looking at that within the Trump White House. Now, the numbers this morning were startling, if you're working in a White House, because it showed a dramatic drop, as you just said, and it does show that the impact of his policies, it matters. People are seeing it and they're like, wait, did I, is this what I voted for? Is this what I, you know, pulled the lever for? And I think that's what you're seeing. I don't know if I'd call it a five alarm fire. And I don't think Democrats or people who are opposing the Trump administration should see it as, we've won. It's over. It's just an indication that activism matters, that people speaking out and calling out and explaining the impact on communities of his policies matters. And that all of these things, I mean, there were moments after the election, I don't know about you, actually, I know because we talked about this. It felt like, is anything we're saying mattering? Does it matter? And I think the answer is it does. And that's one of the things that these numbers tell you.
- [29:35]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Well, look, you'd mentioned that this is startling, and it will be startling for the folks in the White House who of course are gonna look at this stuff. But I guess to build on the exact point that you were bringing up, in the sense that does it matter? I mean, this is a president and a cabinet that doesn't seem to really care about delivering on the things like, look, he ran a campaign that was wholly predicated on bringing down the cost of rent, bringing down the cost of housing, bringing down the cost of food, bringing down the cost of eggs. And since that time, he's been engaged in trade wars, levying tariffs on foreign countries, alienating our allies, releasing January 6th insurrectionists. So it seems like there's a massive disconnect between the guy he was when he was running for votes and the guy who he is as president of the United States. And so do you think that, I mean, I know that we just came off the topic of whether it matters, but for him, does his approval rating matter in the sense that he's a lame duck president who really seems not to care at all about adhering to any of the things that he promised during the campaign?
- [30:38]
Jen Psaki
Well, first of all, I think he's always been the same guy he just knew. He just would say things that he thought would be effective to win.
- [30:47]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right. And by the way, not to cut you off, but like in the, in his first term, he ran his campaign predicated on bringing, getting a jobs boom, getting a manufacturing renaissance, an infrastructure law that became a joke of that administration, a health care plan that was cheaper and more comprehensive. And all he did was pass a tax cut for millionaires and billionaires when he actually got into office.
- [31:07]
Jen Psaki
Correct. And if you think Donald Trump cares about the cost of eggs or even knows what the cost of eggs is currently and how much has gone up, I have a bridge to sell you.
- [31:16]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Right?
- [31:17]
Jen Psaki
I mean, that is not what he cares about as a person. He does care about being popular and he cares about having political support. So there's lots of ways to define that. And blissfully, neither you nor I are in his head. But what does that mean if maga, his MAGA base is still with him, including people who are, who are having a hard time paying for groceries. Maybe he doesn't care that the cost of eggs hasn't come down, but if he sees dramatic drops in approval that are continuous and consistent on things like the economy, then he may care. We'll see. But he does care about that. I don't think he cares about human beings. The other thing I would just add to your list, which I think is hugely impactful, and we're going to see more and more impacts of are these budgetary cuts that they said they didn't make, that a court ordered them to undo, then they didn't undo. And now the impact of those are significant on communities. We're seeing them in rural communities, farmers, red states, doesn't matter. But it is interesting politically. We're seeing them in terms of people being even, even resources being cut from the VA veterans trying to get help and assistance. We're seeing them in terms of early child care centers. These are things that impact people in their communities. And they may have voted for Trump just cuz who knows why, but these are things that it's like, wait, is government, is this working for me? Is this change working for me? It's not Working for a lot of people.
- [32:51]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Well, look, if they're successful in passing the budget that they've laid out thus far, we're gonna see. We're gonna see a reduction in Medicaid, we're gonna see a reduction in funding for student loans, we're gonna see a reduction in funding for food stamps, all so that really they can fund tax cuts, which, at the end of the day, are not gonna even out. It's gonna still lead to a massive explosion in the deficit. And so all of this is not gonna give Republican. Is gonna take away popular programs, and it's not gonna give Republicans the thing they purport to care about, which is being fiscally responsible. So they get neither. And really, the game is given up in the sense that for the second time in a row during a Trump administration, we're gonna see everything. Caution thrown to the wind completely in deference to a tax cut from. For millionaires and billionaires. But the reason that I bring that up is, like, is you have so many programs that are popular. You have, like, Republicans use Medicaid, Republicans use food stamps. Republicans. Republican voters are contending with predatory student loans. Republicans care about the deficit. Republicans recognize that the interest on the debt is a massive line item that we all have to pay for with our tax dollars. And so do you think that there will come a point where. Where kind of popular pressure is gonna bear down on them? Because the way that they're acting right now, and I'm not talking about Trump, I'm talking about everybody else in the party that kind of is perfectly content to cast everything aside and grovel at his feet? Do you think there's gonna come a point where that is gonna have an impact on those people who are running? Or is it just a situation where it's so important to just kowtow to Trump that even if it means casting aside every single piece of their political ideology in deference to him, that's what they're gonna do.
- [34:36]
Jen Psaki
I think it's. We're gonna see the same thing until they're feeling political pain.
- [34:40]
Yeah.
- [34:41]
And that's disappointing and it's kind of gross. And it's not what people were elected to do. You're elected to represent the people in your state or your district or whatever it may be. All the domestic examples are great examples and also hugely impactful examples on communities. The other example, I would say, where it shows in a very crystal clear way their unwillingness, far too many of them, to stand by their principles, is Russia. Right. It was not that long ago, 10 years, but even two years or a year ago, when a number of these same Republican senators and Republican members of Congress and some people were even in the current administration, including Marco Rubio, who were saying Putin is a major threat.
- [35:26]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right.
- [35:27]
Jen Psaki
It is immoral not to support the Ukrainians, provide them with arms, ensure that we are defending them and standing up for them. And now the same people seem okay with the Trump administration's approach, which is let Russia have all of the land, all of the leverage.
- [35:44]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Not even. Not even being willing to say that Russia was the aggressor in this war.
- [35:48]
Jen Psaki
Correct. And that is not an example that people may feel like impacts them in their everyday lives. And it probably doesn't for most people, but it does tell you the willingness to bend themselves into pretzels and to give up their spines in order to please Trump. And that's the political calculation they've made.
- [36:11]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Jen, from your vantage, having worked in the White House, how cataclysmic of a move is what's happening between the US And Russia right now, seemingly coddling up or not seemingly, I mean, clearly coddling up to Putin and at the same time, not only abandoning Ukraine, but abandoning our allies in Europe. I mean, like, this looks like a massive reordering of the post World War II peace structure that's led to decades and decades and decades of peace among the world.
- [36:42]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, look, I never thought I'd be quoting the former national security adviser for Trump, John Bolton, but there's a moment, and we're in 2025, and he basically said last week, the Russians are drinking vodka straight from the bottle right now. Because for a range of reasons, yes, it is Ukraine and the territory that they've long wanted and fought for. But, yes, it's also that the Trump administration is giving them all of the leverage in advance of negotiations by saying, you can have the land.
- [37:15]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right.
- [37:15]
Jen Psaki
It's also giving them a version of a green light to Eastern Europe and other places that they may have, because some of these countries were former parts of the USSR back in those days, they may want. They have aspirations for additional land and space as well. So it is a reordering and it is sending a message to the world. The United States is not going to stand up against big countries illegally invading smaller countries, which, by the way, is kind of a global order type of value. So it is something that I think has the potential to have cataclysmic impacts on the global order. How our allies see us around the world, are we a reliable partner anymore? And also what license it's giving to countries like Russia to take additional actions like this.
- [38:13]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
So we're seeing instances where, for example, Pete Hegseth came forward and preempted the White House or preempted Trump by saying that Ukraine getting membership into NATO was off the table, was a nonstarter. And then, of course, the White House walked it back. But I think the message was already sent. In any case, it's being framed as a gaffe. You have somebody like Sean, not a gaffe. You have somebody like Sean Duffy, the transfer transportation secretary, of course, presiding over a daily deluge of collisions and crashes and planes falling out of the sky. Meanwhile, he's posting pictures of himself going on joyrides on Air Force One to the Daytona 500. From your vantage, having worked in the White House for years and seeing the scrutiny that was placed on Biden administration officials for what were seemingly nothing gaffes. But I mean, we've seen the extent to which right wing media will blow up nothing burgers into major problems. I mean, back to the days of like Obama wearing a tan suit. How do you perceive the asymmetry right now that there is just overall crickets from right wing media for things that you and I both know they would get fucking obliterated on if Pete Buttigieg was overseeing the Department of Transportation where planes could not stay airborne?
- [39:31]
Jen Psaki
I mean, well, first of all, here's the thing. I'm again, I'm just quoting John Bolton. I'm defending Pete Hegseth. We're in opposite worlds. I think Pete Hegseth was like unqualified and immorally corrupt to be in this job. I don't think that was a gaffe. I think that he was stating the position of the administration. Yeah, so, and I understand there were some senators who were like, he's new, he's a newbie. It's like, yes, but I don't think that was a mistake on his part. I think he was stating what Trump had probably said to him in the sit room. Duffy, again, not to be a defender of his, but the biggest problem here, one of them appears to be the unelected unchosen Elon Musk and the Doge crew going in and taking a random wrecking ball to agencies in government, including the faa, including a number that have regulatory authority over some of Elon Musk's. Musk's companies, by the way, which I'm sure is not a coincidence. And cutting positions that are essential that Sean Duffy is defending that. So that should be critiqued. But it's like these. These figures in the Cabinet are almost just, like, powerless puppets. And Trump and Musk are running the whole thing.
- [40:46]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Yeah, they're just building on what you were saying. These agencies that have regulatory oversight over Elon. I mean, we know that there were investigations or. Or action being taken against Elon at, like, the epa, at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, at the Department of Labor, the National Labor Relations Board, usaid. I mean, all of these agencies that he had. That he had gone into and gutted or that Trump had fired the inspector general of, these are all agencies that had levied fines, for example, that were investigating Elon's companies. And so I think that's the most shocking part of all of this, is the way in which they're able to be successful in framing all this of. Of this as him. Like rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. If you wanted to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, think about the one agency that has failed more audits than all of these other agencies combined. You have the Department of Defense right there in front of you. But you start with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which has returned $21 billion to over 200 million consumers in this country. You start with USAID, which is half of 1% of the budget and delivers HIV prevention and clean water to communities around the world, while also giving us software power for like, a fraction of the price that it would cost to send the military into these places. Those are the places you start with.
- [42:00]
Jen Psaki
So you also wouldn't fire the IGs. I mean, inspectors general. I will tell you, from working for two Democratic presidents, they're a headache for everyone. You know why? Because they're investigating every agency and they find stuff including waste and fraud and abuse. They wouldn't be firing them if they actually cared about waste, fraud, and abuse. They'd be taking their reports, they'd be looking at them and figuring out what to use to root out and to address.
- [42:28]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Let's switch gears here and talk about the blueprints. That's a new show that you started. What is it and why. Why did you want to start it at this point in time?
- [42:35]
Jen Psaki
Well, it's a. It's a podcast. We do video as well, but it. One of you were one of the people I talked to about this and talked to in the week, days and weeks after the election, just about what just happened and what does it mean from here. And it doesn't mean that everything needs to be ripped up. I'm a believer, and I think you are, too, that a lot of the things that Democrats stand for, and I don't just mean, of course, the obvious rule of law, defense of democracy, those are hugely important. I also mean standing up for working men and women. Also making education something that people can be accessible to people, ensuring that we're setting our kids up for a better future. Those are all things that are good bases. It didn't connect with the working people. And so to me, there's lots of reasons here. There's a messaging question, but maybe there's a policy question too. It's not always a comms problem. It's worth discussing. There's disinformation, misinformation. How do you address that? There's a risk aversion. There's a crazy level of risk aversion among Democrats which at this point, throw out the window, say fuck when appropriate. Yes. Not in random moments, but just free yourself a little bit here. You know, there's that. And so I, I really thought about who were the people who I knew would be candid, who could really assess without knowing the full answers and have a discussion about it. And it became a podcast.
- [43:57]
Yeah.
- [43:58]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And so how, how do you think about that, like, differently from the show that you're currently doing with msnbc Inside with Jen Psaki?
- [44:03]
Jen Psaki
Oh, my God, it's so different. I don't know what it is about a podcast or a video. People just become more relaxed. I think I even become more relaxed because you're not trying to jam everything into six minutes.
- [44:15]
Yeah.
- [44:16]
And the thing is, you know, when you're hosting a show is people will say, okay, three minutes in, you have two minutes left, and you got to go to commercial. And you got to go because you got to get to the next guest. So often I find you feel rushed.
- [44:30]
Yeah.
- [44:31]
And you don't have the time to have these conversations. And also there's so much going on with Trump right now. I don't wanna live a Trump dominated television life. But he is the current President of the United States who is wreaking havoc on our country. And we have to explain and explore it and hold him accountable. So a lot of what we're talking about is that, and this is an opportunity to talk about the other side of things in a broader way.
- [44:53]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Just to give people who are watching and listening right now an idea. You'll have a producer in your ear counting down or like telling you how much time you have left. In the middle of like, of a rant, you have somebody saying like 30 seconds or 10 seconds, wrap it up.
- [45:08]
Jen Psaki
And you're like, listen, Brian. And on Monday is first of all, Rachel Maddows, a national treasurer. And she goes, she, her show is after mine on Mondays. And I like, live in fear. Like, this is one of the things I get nervous about about like 10 seconds over into her show, you know, and so you have to keep on time and. Yeah, but you know, there's also one of the things. And you and I have listened to a lot of podcasts and other things that are from like, people who are in the right wing, people who aren't even in the right wing. They're just like doing things that are in a different way.
- [45:40]
Yeah.
- [45:41]
And they're a lot more casual, they're a lot more conversational. And I think that's important. It doesn't mean you have to have the answer. It just means let's explore it together.
- [45:51]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Yeah. I think there's something to be said for just unlearning a lot of how to communicate in media, which is, which has largely been focused on communicating on linear tv. When you get more comfortable with just being able to sit down on a couch and have a long conversation with somebody, that will then kind of inform how you operate in other arenas too. In the same way that if you're only talking on tv, that informs how you speak to regular people. And so I think kind of like unlearning habits that it's not that they're bad habits, it's just that habits that aren't really in vogue right now aren't resonating right now. I mean, this is like an era of authenticity. I mean, this was dubbed the podcast election. And so I think being able to speak to people in a way that they're more inclined to listen to you, I think that kind of has benefits throughout everything you do.
- [46:44]
Jen Psaki
Yeah. And I'm genuinely interested in people I talk to on TV too. But there's something that's different about having a 40 minute conversation with somebody.
- [46:52]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And so who have you spoken?
- [46:55]
Jen Psaki
So so far we've done, we've had Governor Wes Moore, Jack Schlossberg, who's JFK's grandson, Rahm Emanuel, Don Lemon, and then next week we have Jamel Hill, who is a former ESPN anchor, and also JB Pritzker.
- [47:14]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Okay.
- [47:14]
Jen Psaki
So, yeah, it's people who are just gonna speak their mind as kind of the list of people I really wanted to talk to.
- [47:22]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
I'm curious whether you are seeing a difference in like how electeds are speaking to you, because usually I find that when it's electeds versus commentators or hosts, it's much easier to get them to speak freely and not have to rely on, like, rote talking points. But especially as we get toward, you know, the election time, then it's just. Then it's just talking point city. But I'm curious if you've already seen some move, whether it's with. Even in your conversation with Wes Moore, whether there's more of an embrace of kind of not relying on. Not sounding like a politician in the way that people have in the past.
- [47:57]
Jen Psaki
Yeah. And it's also kind of a test of whether people can do that. Right. I mean, Wes Moore's a great example. You know, there are things that. He's the governor of Maryland. He has millions of federal workers in his state. We actually sat down and did an interview, a tape TV interview, right before we did the podcast. Two for one around here.
- [48:14]
Yeah.
- [48:14]
And. And he was still quite effective and good. But we were talking about really, you know, the gutting of the FBI and things like that. The thing about the podcast is you can have a conversation that's much more broad. Right. About Republicans taking over the mantle of patriotism. I mean, he's a veteran. He had some really interesting things to say about that. He talked, he told me about how he used to run the Robin Hood foundation, which is focused on poverty in New York. How when he was first running for governor, pollsters told him not to use the word poverty, which is like, you know, so you. It unearths things that are just much more telling about people. Everybody can't do it, but everybody needs to learn how to do it, which is speak like a human being in kind of jeans and a sweatshirt or a sweater or whatever you're wearing. Cause that's what every. That's how everybody is. Nobody's sitting, as Don Lemon said to me, actually, nobody's sitting on their couch in a situation, suit and tie, waiting to hear an update on politics from you. And I'm like, does that mean I know I have to wear a suit? Cause I'll burn him in a fire. That's my. But it's been really eye opening in a good way because I think it helps you explore in this moment, where does everybody go from here? Because that didn't exactly work.
- [49:30]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Right. Well, I'm glad at least that, like, look, I'm grateful for you being able to get into these new spaces. I think that the more people on the left who are able to embrace, like, changing things and recognizing that what we did in the past isn't, you know, isn't going to isn't going to be effective moving forward and so I think being able to iterate is especially important. So grateful for you doing it. Where can we, where can we get the blueprint?
- [49:55]
Jen Psaki
Anywhere you get podcasts, Spotify, Apple podcasts. Anywhere you get them, we are there.
- [50:02]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
Excellent. Well, I'll put the link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Jen, thanks so much for taking the time.
- [50:07]
Jen Psaki
Thank you. Great seeing you.
- [50:09]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Thanks again to John and Jen.
- [50:11]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
That's it for this episode.
- [50:12]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Talk to you next week.
- [50:15]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for.
- [50:20]
Brian Tyler Cohen
YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app.
- [50:25]
Interviewer (likely Brian Tyler Cohen)
And leave a five star rating and a review.
- [50:28]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And as always, you can find me ryanteller Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantellercohen.com to learn more.
- [50:39]
Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman
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