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- [00:01]
A
For today's episode, you're going to hear an interview that I conducted with Gavin Newsom in Boston, Massachusetts at the JFK Library. It was a wide ranging conversation. We spoke about what Democrats need to do to fight back brand issues. Also got into some weird territory. Asked some questions about his relationship with Kimberly Guilfoyle. So without further ado, here is that conversation with Governor Gavin Newsom. So I want to start off with Prop 50, California. You took decisive action first governor of the country to push back on the power grab that took place at the hands of this administration, which I think you deserve a ton of credit for right off the bat.
- [00:42]
B
I appreciate it.
- [00:47]
A
This was in response to Texas drawing four districts at the behest of Donald Trump. The demand of Donald Trump. Five districts. Sorry, five districts that he felt he was entitled to. This past Tuesday in Texas's primary elections, four of those districts had higher Democratic turnout than Republican turnout.
- [01:08]
B
Amazing. Yeah, yeah.
- [01:13]
A
Did this whole effort backfire by Republicans? Was this a fool's errand by Republicans to have engaged in the first place?
- [01:19]
B
It's still to be determined. But, you know, let's back up a little bit on this. You use the word entitled because that's exactly the word that Donald Trump used when he called Greg Abbott. He said, I'm entitled to five seats. Which is remarkable and chilling just on its own. Then again, it's hardly surprising. This is a guy after January 6th, that day of love tried to light democracy on fire, tried to steal the election. Democracy is for suckers, kind of the attitude. Then went down there talking about finding 11, 12,000 votes down in. Georg knows, and I was with the speaker to be Jeffries an hour or two ago. He knows he's going to get shellacked in this election. He knows he's going to lose the midterm elections. It's the one thing we can all agree on if we do our job. And that's why he went out and made that phone call to Greg Abbott to try to rig the election before one vote was cast. What typically is the case, and I say this with love and reverence to my party, our party, Democratic Party. So often our response to something like that would be to try to win an argument, you know, to maybe go out, Brian, and we, you know, work to maybe get an op ed in the New York Times. I say, gosh darn it, you know, just, this is so wrong.
- [02:42]
A
Or maybe, maybe even a strongly worded letter.
- [02:44]
B
Or maybe a strongly worded letter.
- [02:46]
A
I don't want to get ahead of ourselves.
- [02:48]
B
But and I'll be candid with you, that was kind of our inclination. I started with a tweet. I was very satisfied with myself. They said we had 500 likes. I said, that's amazing. But it occurred to pretty much all of us and Ryan, you were a real vocal leader on this, holding us to a higher level of expectation, accountability. Because this time last year, not many of us were sure. I mean, we were hand wringing, you know, we were struggling in every way, shape or form as a party to figure it out. We were still in this. Are we really going to do a forensic. What the hell just happened? And there was a sense that we're just truly weak and ineffective and weren't able to get anything done. And I think it was in that stew that we decided to do something a little bit differently. But of course that required a few phone calls. And the first and most important was to former speaker Nancy Pelosi, who did the impossible. She had just a matter of days. We had to do a special election in response to draw these new lines. And she went to the largest delegation in the country and remarkably got back a few hours later, said, let's do this. Of course we didn't necessarily know how to do this. And we went through a process over a course, quite literally of about 10 days in total and put this on the ballot with a 90 day sprint, raised $118 million. And we not only drew the line, but we held the line and we pushed back and we fought fire with fire and we punched back at what happened in Texas. And Brian, the thing for me, it just, you know, once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. And it was what was remarkable about it and again, you were such a big part of it was how, you know, in the spirit of Obama, who we were just with a moment ago as well, it was all these self organizing communities coming together. It wasn't a top down campaign. It was Prop 50 after all, 50 states. And our state of mind was about losing this Republic. You know, 250th anniversary the best of the Roman Republic, Best of Greek democracy co equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law, not the rule of dawn. And it's increasingly, I think dawning on all of us that for things to change, we have to change. And as a consequence of what we did, we're doing everything differently now with a recognition how precious and profound this moment is, we can lose this republic. This guy is not screwing around. Let me highlight that Brian, on the day we kicked off the campaign for Prop 50. It was at the Democracy center in Little Tokyo. It's a sacred site in Los Angeles where we were interning, busing the Japanese. It's a sacred site. I underscore that because we had about a thousand people at a rally, two US Senators, we had a dozen members of Congress, clergy, civil rights leaders to kick it off. And we looked outside. People, we're having a difficult time getting in. We're like, what's going on? They said, well, there's a bunch of masked men outside. We rolled our eyes. There's not masked men. There was one exception. A guy I dressed up, I kid you not, as if he just came off the Burbank lot. Warner Brothers in 1930s garb, including the haircut guy named Bovino. Gregory Bovino was out there with his private police force. Appeared to be private. No markings, no reference to who they're working for. An intimidation tactic to keep people from walking in. Poor guy selling true story strawberries across the street. Disappeared that day. We finally tracked him back. He finally came back a few weeks later. Collateral damage, we said at that time. That is a preview of things to come. What more evidence do you need than what happened in Minnesota? Those guys clearly took an oath on office to Donald Trump, not the Constitution of the United States of America on election day. Again, if you think I'm overstating things, on election day, Bovino, Kristi Noem, Stephen Miller, the dark heart of the operation, sent out BORTAC teams. These are the border patrol tactical units with. These are the folks with the Apache helicopters on election morning, sent them to the highest profile location you can find, particularly after the Dodgers win the World Series, to Dodger Stadium to get all the morning news, to send a message to our diverse communities already on edge because we had 4,000 National Guard federalized, 700 active duty Marines not sent overseas, but the second largest city in the United States of America to send a message. Don't bother to turn out the vote. We said at the time, that is a preview of things to come. Of course, that came after Donald Trump sent out a true social even earlier that morning, saying the election in California is rigged. He also sent out the Department of Justice, Pam Bond. He sent out his teams, election washers and observers the next day, tweeted out, we have the evidence. And they went to the Supreme Court. A preview of things to come. I kicked off this book tour in the south in Tennessee. We were down in Fulton county, met with the commissioners, head of the commission. Trump is not only did he take with all that team of folks, Tulsi Gabbard and everything else he's now trying to impose to take over that commission for the election this year, a preview of things to come to nationalize the election or at least in 15 blue states. What's the SAVE act all about? It's not about voter ID, it's about who gets to vote. It's about voter registration. This guy is not screwing around and nor can we. And forgive the long windedness you opened up with Prop 50. That's what it represents. We have got to fight fire with fire. I wish it weren't the case. The idea that we were advocating for gerrymandering, the fact that we were advocating for literally politicizing and choosing voters, shows you how precious again and profound and consequential this moment is in our republic.
- [09:28]
A
So you mentioned that that was a preview of things to come and you repeated that line. And I think that that line is important to have repeated. Do you think that that's gotten through to everybody else in the Democratic Party? Because you know, you also mentioned at the top that it is very of the Democratic Party to write an op ed in the New York Times. I said to write a strongly worded letter and that feels like the Democratic Party that I've always known this idea that, you know, as long as we just kind of expect democracy to work or, or confer some degree of goodwill to the other side that maybe it'll be reciprocated. Do you think that the gravity of this moment has gotten through to the rest of the party? Because not every governor in this country is gonna be you or Maura Healey. You know, we should be so lucky. But they're not. And so do you think it's gotten through?
- [10:19]
B
It's getting through. Look, these guys are ruthless. We're trying again, win arguments. They're consolidating power enough. And the asymmetry is real. These propaganda networks, the primetime lineup at Fox, I'll just remind you, you know this, that Laura Ingraham herself is a partner in a business deal with Donald Trump Jr. I mean, it's Pravda. What's happening in Sinclair? One American News Newsmax. The asymmetry in terms of their ability to flood the zone and communicate is extraordinary. And so again, for things to change, I'll keep saying it, we have to change. It's not what happens to us, it's how we respond to what happens to it. And so we need to change our tactics. And you're seeing it we saw jb. I mean, he did a remarkable job. We were just with him in Chicago in response to what happened again in the preview of what was to come in Chicago after what happened in D.C. and of course, you saw the same with Governor Waltz. And I never thought, I'll tell you again, never thought I'd get a call like this. Just a few months ago, I get a call from Waltz and I'm like, how you doing, pal? He's like, hey, I thought it would be you. First he tells me, but it's me. I could use a little help. I said, whatever you need. He goes for my legal defense fund. A sitting governor calling another governor, quite literally to raise money because he's under criminal indictment by Donald Trump isn't the mayor. We forgot about that. These guys are not screwing around. You think for a second that's not likely to happen out on the West Coast. This is different. He's an invasive species. And so, you know, if nothing else, Brian, it's waking up our immune system. And it's so often the case, isn't it? I mean, it's, you know, how many extraordinary moments you've had up here with historians and authors. It's always the case. It's the people first. You know, Justice Brandeis. And the most important office is the office of citizen. It's not president, governor, mayor, office active, not inert citizenship. And you're seeing that. The no Kings rallies, you saw it in that second one, people. What? You saw it in the steel spines of the folks in Minnesota. That's why Trump's in retreat. That's why Kristi Noem was just fired. Was those folks. It was you. All of you, stand up. Meeting this moment. So, yes, I think we're getting the message. And there are a lot more messengers, and I think there's a lot more activity and action and passion in the spirit of Oliver Wendell Holmes that is being shared all across this country.
- [13:05]
A
To what extent do you think that the fact Trump and his acolytes feel so emboldened to act the way that they are, that that's born out of an unwillingness to hold them to account the first time?
- [13:19]
B
Look, you know, I think about, you know, Trump is Trump, but, you know, Speaker Johnson, you know, Lindsey Graham. I thought the two most effective anti Trump surrogates was a guy named J.D. vance and Marco Rubio. But, you know, this, and we've talked about this. I've gotten so frustrated that, you know, I even put up a Patriot site. You can go online and on my Patriot site. I sell knee pads. And the good news, Brian, is we have new Trump signature series knee pads. The old ones sold out. Just like our law firms are selling out, just like our universities are sold out, just like corporate leaders are sold out, just like members of the media have sold out. And they've got to be called out. I'm sorry, we'll lose this country. The complicity at this moment trying to make a deal with Donald Trump or those that are also complicit, they're putting their head down and hoping it just all goes away. I mean, I just left Jesse Jackson's memorial talking about this notion. We have agency, we can shape the future. We're not bystanders of the future. The future's not in front of us, it's inside of us. It's decisions, not conditions that deter our fate and future. That's the spirit, the vernacular, that's the spirit of Kennedy, spirit of the 60s, you know, how you solve for ignorance and poverty and disease. And so I think it's the spirit that defines this moment. So that complicity of also needs to be called out, much more aggressive. Because at the end of the day, my summation of Trump is it's really not complicated. It's a corruption story. Everything connects to that. Just like the tariffs he had to come face to face with a co equal branch of government. It was a bit of a shock, wasn't it? You saw that press conference last Friday or the Friday before, and it wasn't about our country as much as it was about his personal portfolio. And you think, again, I'm overstating it. Just consider the tariffs dropped 26% in Vietnam right after the Vietnamese approved the $1.5 billion golf course in development. That's what the IEE Paya meant to Trump. It's about his personal portfolio. And you say, well, hold on, that's not fair. Well, let's go to the UAE. Let's talk about the $2 billion there. World Liberty Financial. Let's talk about the high value chips that were sent in return for the $2 billion. This is a grift the likes of which we've never experienced in history of this country at a scale unprecedented. And all these guys want to get in on it every one of these foreign trips. Who is the first envoys out there? Members of the family, people in business. What's this Board of Peace? It's about getting a piece of the Middle East. Come, you gotta call this out. It's not complicated. It's in plain sight. And There's a timidity, Bobby's language, you know, the world needs are the qualities of youth. Not a time of life, a state of mind, a quality of imagination. Predominance of courage over love, of ease. This notion of courage over love of ease at this moment. And so again, forgive. You know, my mom, I wrote about her in this book, has passed away 20 years ago. She'd probably be washing my mouth out with soap and forgive me, mom, but I just feel like this moment requires us to radically shift. Conventional politics no longer applies.
- [17:28]
A
To that end, I want to read an excerpt. And you and I have spoken about this particular excerpt before. And this was right in the lead up to the first same sex marriage that you would be responsible for. And this is what one of your campaign consultants said to you, quote, speaking while we're talking about cleaning your mouth out with soap, quote, what the fuck are you doing here? Why did we work so hard to win if you can't do something bold? He asked. This is a short life, Gavin. Your time as a politician to get things done is just a blip. And so while we're talking about doing something bold, what does that look like in 2026? In very much the same way that, you know, when this took place decades ago, that was the bold movement.
- [18:11]
B
Look, I mean, it's all about 2026. It's exhausting. This guy or gal on the white horse that's going to come save the day in 2028. It's all about 2026. There may not be a 2028 as we know it. There may not be. And again, I mean, there'll be an election. You know, competitive authoritarians love elections. Like Putin. You may google this. I think it was 83 point or 87.3% I think is what he did. Yeah, someone got 4.3 or something below. That's the kind of election that we may have if we don't take back the House of Representatives and dare I say now take back the United States Senate this November, which is in play in a big, big way. And so it's look the biggest and it goes to the, you know, and I get the friction of what happened in 2004. And you know, we were barely even debating civil unions back then. And I kind of took a leap of faith and you know, Massachusetts was a big part of that as well. You did as well. I think we share that in so many ways in common. And it, you know, it was an audacious move and there was a lot of critique and Criticism and a lot of punditry. And it was a lot of soul searching for me. And I talk a lot about that. It was universally condemned by members of my party, you know, my family. My dad tried to talk me out. I write about it in the book. There's a scene with he and my uncle, and they had an intervention the night before, trying to talk me out of it. Old Irish Catholic family, West side, San Francisco. Dad used to go and grew up down in the Marina district. And you know, his mom and dad, every morning got all six brothers and sisters dressed up to go to church every single day. This is not even the black and white movie days. It feels like yesterday. That was my father. And here was his son pursuing the dreams he never achieved after trying to run for county supervisor and losing, turning around in 1968 and running for state senate and losing with the help then of Bobby Kennedy. We have these campaigns, photos from that time. And he lost both races and was broke and broken and took off, leaving my mom 19 when she had me 2 years later with 2 kids on her own. Came back eventually, but wasn't there in the beginning. I was pursuing his unfinished work. And so I get elected as the youngest mayor in 100 years. And you know, he's doing the, you know, Jimmy Gleason thing. How sweet it is. And I'm like, dad, we should start marrying same size couples. Didn't go over very well, as you can imagine. And, you know, there's a scene where I was debating it with him and this fierce advocate for justice, one of the nation's great trial attorneys, Joe Kachette, his best friend. And Joe was trying to debate me as he does with everybody. And I said, joe, I give up. I don't know what else to say except, you know, I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do. And that's literally when he turned to my dad and uncle, he said, boys, he'll be doing this tomorrow because it's the right thing to do. And we moved forward and married 4,036 couples from 46 states and six countries in that winter, not summer, of love in San Francisco. And it was glorious and extraordinary, but it was also extraordinary the self doubt that came with that afterwards. And sort of the reflection of my own complicity in sort of the mega political moment, sort of the beginner's mind, the naivete perhaps I had of it. If I knew what I knew, I probably wouldn't have done it. There's something about the beginner's mind, the Roger Bannister, theory of life, the guy who broke the four minute mile. Cause he didn't know he couldn't. Everyone else was an expert. They knew that the human body didn't move that fast. And so, you know, I think what it represented though was conviction. To your question, I'm coming back to that. Whether you agreed or disagreed. And this notion of conviction is also a strength. And I think for our party the last year few to sense our party back again. I said a moment ago, is weak. I was just with Bill Clinton and Hillary. And you remember what Clinton said years ago when we got slacked at one of those midterms many moons ago. He said, given the choice, the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. And there is something about just strength and conviction. Yes, we want to be strong and right. That's the sweet spot. But having the courage of your convictions, being able to get out there and sell them, be out there selling it every day to flood the zone to make the case, but to have the courage of your convictions, to share that and in finding that equal weight, I think is how not only we get back though I'm confident in 2026, but we get back that mojo, you know, I think that sense, you know, and forgive me, I'm just. You guys, some of you know this, my staff certainly know this is like you don't even know what. But I'm serious, like what being here for a guy like me, you know, and I write about not, you know, I don't read speeches because I can't read speeches, but I read. But I can't deliver speeches that I read. And just, you know, how Sars Shriver and Bobby jfk, like, I'm here, it's reflected in my father. And you know, so the fact that I'm here having this conversation is extraordinary. But I say all that to make this what's so evocative. This is the thing that's the hardest thing. And I've tried this as mayor, as a county supervisor, as lieutenant governor, Governor. You can't legislate spirit. You can't legislate pride in sort of the vernacular defines this hollow ground and this notion of going on a journey together. And I just think that's the language we need again, this notion of going on a journey together, a journey where everyone sees themselves and they're part of it. And I think that's the spirit. That's strength and that's not power, dominance and aggression. That's not Trump's version of strength. That's the strength defined by the people that all the preachers we're talking about today, King and Gandhi and Mandela and Havel, you know, Cesar Chavez, that shared their moral authority. It's about moral authority. And if we can use our moral authority, we'll gain back the formal authority. And I'm confident in not only 2026, but also 2028.
- [25:30]
A
So you spoke about this idea of redefining what the Democrats stand for. Right now we're in a moment where it's kind of uncertain what the Republicans stand for other than blind devotion to Trump. But, I mean, this is a guy who himself had campaigned on this idea that he wanted to enter no new wars. Here we are in a new war every week. A guy who campaigned on bringing costs down thanks to his trade war costs are surging. How do you think about what the Republican Party stands for moving forward, given the fact that they've been perfectly content to shed every purported ideal they've had in the lead up to this moment?
- [26:04]
B
Well, they're supine. There's no Republican Party back to this invasive species construct. They don't exist. And it's remarkable. I mean, you have Ronald Reagan. I walk into Ronald Reagan's old office every day when I'm at work. Governor Ronald Reagan, I mean, he's looking down literally, not just figuratively. His painting on Donald Trump in the Oval Office, it has nothing in common with this. This is a guy Trump who said he was going to make us wealthier and healthier. We're quite literally sicker and poorer. You saw the jobs numbers today, down 92,000. We lost over 100,000 manufacturing jobs in the last 12 months. 1.4% GDP contract now starting to slow down. We saw one of the worst jobs growth years that we've had since recession, roughly 2013. Speaking of 13, I mean, not even 13 cents today. I saw it was 37 cents overall. Gas prices have increased week over week. And if you're In Indiana, it's 47 cents. West Virginia, 47 cents in just one week. There was the energy minister in Qatar. They had their largest LNG facility that was just taken out. The second largest LNG exporter in the world. Their largest LNG facility was just taken out by an Iranian drone. And he talked about his words in the FT this morning. $150 a barrel of oil. You talk about wrecking ball presidency. I mean, certainly reflected symbolically and substantially in the Imperial palace that he's trying or the Kremlin West Wing that he's trying to Recreate. And that's all this has. Donald Trump is, you know, it's all about destruction, and destruction is not strength. He's not a builder. You know, Sam Ryburn, I remember years ago, I was like, who's this Ryburn guy? Well, he had a great quote. I always remember the quote when I was a kid. He goes, you know, any jackass, any jackass can knock down Barn. It takes a skilled carpenter to build one. Forgive me, but Donald Trump is a jackass. I believe that. And it's the only thing it has in common. Institutions, truth, trust. I don't even get to Kennedy stuff. But let's go down the list. These guys are rewriting history, censoring historical facts. They want to bring us back to a pre1960s world. America in reverse. LGBTQ rights, women's rights. We've seen it on civil rights and now voting rights across the board. It's happening in real time. That's why states matter. And I want to just thank your state governor for. I guess she must have written a book, because I think you must have learned, or she could have in the time that you spent together talking about that, but more how important she is and how important governors are, states on the front lines of all of these battles. But we all are now in this consequential moment. And so, no, I don't know. I do not know what Donald Trump stands for right now. He stands for Donald Trump, and that's at the essence of almost everything. And we've talked about the Epstein files. We don't want to go down that dark hole. But that's also reflected in what that's all about as well. It's about him. Something about those files and him. You don't care about laying anybody out. So who is he protecting? We know he's protecting himself.
- [29:40]
A
There was a really interesting part of the book where you discussed your meeting with Donald Trump, going on a plane with him, having phone calls with him. What struck me about that part of the book is it didn't feel like. It felt like there was two distinct Personas between the public one and the private one. And so can you speak a little bit about.
- [30:00]
B
About who he.
- [30:01]
A
Who he pretends to be in public, whether you think that there is some legitimacy behind that and who he is in private.
- [30:10]
B
I'll talk to you about who he tried to call on Air Force One. Oh, thank God. She didn't answer. That would not have gone well. I'd have been kicked off the plane. I got a call. This would this is a more contemporary call and I'll go back briefly to what's in the book and this book, by the way, if you were coming to get a book about 10 point plan to restore America's soul and future come back, that is definitely, you're at the wrong venue. That is not this book. If you came to read a book that was some sanitized version of a political life, this is not that book either. This is the Opry. This is. If you don't like me, you should buy this in bulk. With the one exception. I wrote a book that went up to when my father, God bless him, he lasted long enough to see his son get elected governor. He was in a wheelchair an election night, passed away a few weeks later, didn't see me get sworn in, but boy, he was there. And what a night that was for me. And that's where the book was going to end. But the fires last year, I was going to release this last year in Los Angeles required an extension of the book because I met Donald Trump as governor elect after the most devastating and deadly wildfire in American history, Paradise, California, right before I got sworn in as governor, when Jerry Brown was governor of California. And I described that trip in detail and it marks our relationship, which is an interesting one. And let me highlight that the night before he federalized 4,000 National Guard, remember, that all happened in California first. So much of this is happening in California first. His efforts to try to get, get and purge the voting rolls happened in our state first. Even before Pam Bondi demanded them as an extraction payment to get the National Guard, or rather get ICE out of Minnesota. They had already demanded that of us and a number of other states. Many, many months ago, Donald Trump demanded my attention on a night that I'll never forget. At 10:30, 11:00 clock, I'm getting this strange phone call, missed call, missed call, missed call from someplace in Florida. And I, it just couldn't be right. It's 10:30, I'm doing the math. I'm, you know, I may have dyslexia, but I can still count, which I love to get into. Not the counting part, the dyslexia. And I texted Susie Wiles and she goes, yes, call him. So I call. And this was when there was, we had a modest incident in Southern. They colored it in. It was, it was an incident legit, but they really covered it on, you know, Hannity and Fox in Los Angeles. And Trump called me, presumably to talk about la. I jump right into la. He cuts me off, goes what do you think of New Scum? His nickname for me. I'm like, new Scum. He go. And then I'm about to say. He says, pretty original, right? Pretty original. I said, original? I said, not original. I just wrote. I literally told him. I said, I just wrote a book. There's an 8th grade bully that called me New Scum. It's in the book. And he goes, oh, no. You know, he goes, well, what about Mega? What about Mega? I said, what about it? I said, are you. Are we seriously having this conversation? Literally, this is how it went. He goes, pretty good, right? I said, well, no. Reagan kind of had that, too. And it's not original. He goes, well, how many hats you think I sold last month? It is 1:30 in the morning, Mar a Lago time. I don't know how many true socials he was in at that hour, but apparently he sold about 211,000 hats. I was like, well, that's actually impressive. And the whole conversation got even more curious. He said. He starts talking about how he won the debate against Kamala. I'm like, no, you didn't. And he said, it was four against one. I said, I thought there was just only two hosts. He goes, well, the cameraman. The cameraman. So anyway, 17 minutes later, and by the way, if you think I'm making this up, there was an oversight committee that demanded my notes on this conversation. I literally am not making any of that up. About 18 hours later, the next day, there's a truth social saying, I read Newsom the Riot act, and I am federalizing 4,000 National Guard. It was 2,000. Then eventually 2,000. I'm like, what the hell is this? That's Donald Trump. That's the Trump in the book. That's the guy slapping me on the leg, saying in front of Jared Kushner, Kushner. You were not my first choice. Tom Brady was right in front of Kushner. Gives a whole long story. I thought it was kind of a joke. And then I'm like, oh, God, he's serious. Literally. You should read for nothing else. You know, know your audience. You may want to read that. But he was trying to read me, and I was trying to read him sizing each other up. You know, we're then. And we land on Marine One, and Marines are walking up like this, and Trump hits me. He goes, right there. Marines are about to open the door. He goes, swartzman. Swartzman doesn't get this. Some of you know, Swartzman is guy. He's always competed with to be as wealthy as Swartzman. We get on Air Force One. He starts petting the side of the plane, goes, isn't this amazing? I said, it's amazing, sir. You're amazing, sir, is what he was looking for. You know, we walk in the bedroom and I'm like, no other president would ever do this. I don't know that I want to go in the bedroom with any other president. And it was really incredible. And then we went back and did a press conference, and I didn't know he could do press conference. And now you see it all the time. It was. It was amazing. Called me the next day. You know, I describe after I took a little shot on my inaugural, and he calls me and he. Honestly, it's in the book. He expressed being almost hurt. I'm like, whoa. And I was ready to apologize. And I didn't. It was just a oblique, you know. Yeah. And he goes, well, we're all good. We're all good. We're good. And then he said. And then he starts talking about my family and my kids and said something you shouldn't say about someone's wife. That's Donald Trump. And every foreign leader knows this. You can spin them on your finger. The most easily manipulated. I mean, it's alarming. It's alarming. And so it's all about that transaction. It's all about that relationship. He's a broken man to try to break this country. It's not complicated. And that's why, again, we have to remain vigilant, because this is a guy who's. It's. He's been exposed. Weakness masquerading as strength, you know, with respect and forgive, you know, forgive me. But, you know, between he and beset, it's dumb and dumber right now. These guys. I mean, this has been. This thing is collapsing all around us. You know, I live in the Mag 7 West Coast. That's kind of holding up this whole market, all the capex. You know, I'm out there in a state where his state of mind is to take 10% tithing from Intel. I thought I remembered Ronald Reagan out there with, you know, Thatcher talking about, you know, free enterprise is a healthy horse pulling a sturdy wagon. Now it's state capitalism. 25% AMD, 25% Nvidia MP Materials golden shares or golden iPhone to avoid a drop in your shares by getting a tariff exemption. This is different. And so that relationship that was formed then allowed me to navigate during COVID in a way where we actually got along remarkably and allowed me to navigate up into that phone call. But when he drew that line and it felt like he declared war on an American city in Los Angeles last June, that's when I recognized I had to radically change. And you saw it. And forgive me, back to, you know, soap in the mouth, washing it out. My social media shifted as well. And if you haven't noticed, you know, yeah, not many people are apologizing, applauding then, but I just thought I'd put a mirror up to this. How has this been allowed to be normalized, this normalization of deviancy? How are we not calling this all cap out? How can he cosplay literally dress up as the pope? Like, dressed up as a pope dressed up as Superman. He put his picture up there on Mount Rushmore. So I decided to start doing it as well. And so offended. So offended was the primetime lineup at Fox. So offended was the five. How could a governor do this? It's so unbecoming. Jesse, what do you say? So situationally unaware of how complicit they all have been at this moment. We don't want to be in peril being judged not to have lived in this moment. And so all of us, we need to put that mirror up. We need, you know, otherwise we put a mask on and our face is going to grow into it. We don't even recognize ourselves, not just our country. And we can do it with a little sense of humor. And I think with Trump, going to your point, again, forgive the long windedness. There is a. There's a sort of, you know, back and forth. He's got a sense of humor, remarkably personable. I spent 90 minutes with him in the Oval Office. After I uninvited, though, I finally got invited. I kind of pushed myself onto the tarmac in la, where he was very gracious. And I invited myself to the Oval Office a month later. And it was 90 minutes of sort of banter back and forth. But I realized, and you know, and we all do, you don't work with Donald Trump. You can only work for him. And I have no interest in working for Donald Trump. That's the red line that will never be crossed.
- [41:35]
A
While we're on the subject of weird relationships, Kimberly Guilfoyle.
- [41:43]
B
Look, y' all seem to know a lot more about that than most things. That's interesting.
- [41:48]
A
I have spent the last week trying to figure out what the question would be here. I know that I wanted to ask.
- [41:54]
B
You must have had something to drink. That took some courage to bring this up.
- [41:58]
A
Well, I didn't see Jen, so I
- [42:00]
B
figured, yeah, I figured my wife's not here, by the way, just on that, so I can try to distract him and he may forget the question he was about to ask. So we're on Air Force One. I get the royal tour. It was amazing. He was incredibly gracious. He really was. And he was treating everyone rather graciously as well. It was sort of a mark of interesting character trait that I never seen and haven't seen since in terms of how he treated, you know, the pilots and everybody and how gracious he seemed to be with the staff. But he really wanted me to call my wife and I don't know any, you know, some of you maybe had the privilege. I had never been on Air Force One. And I figured you just pick up the phone and dial. That doesn't work. There's some operator back like some old day movies and he's like. And I'm like, oh gosh, not Jen, not my wife. She was not happy. I was with Trump. And he's standing right above me waiting for the operators to say, sir, we have Jen Siebel Newsom on the phone. And we waited. I'm like, okay, we're watching Fox News. And he's, you know, and I'm like, sir, she's not available. Like, oh, that's really too bad. And luckily I ended up having a call. He said, call someone else. I ended up calling my sister and he got bored with me and, and walked away. I said, hillary, thank you. Just, you're good, Good, thanks, bye. Just forgive me, but you were saying about Kimberly.
- [43:27]
A
So on the topic of unfortunate relationships, how like was she always, Is this an act? How did this happen? I mean, the gulf between you and her.
- [43:45]
B
Well, you know, I'm young man in a hurry. She was a young woman in a hurry. She pretty fierce prosecutor, was in la, made her way to San Francisco. A lot of cross currents with Kamala and da's office. I mean, it's interesting. And you know, I was sworn in as mayor the same day Kamala was sworn in. Da. We walked across the street for her swearing in. And you know, we were all in this sort of friends group and frenemies group, not with Kamala, but with Kimberly and Kamala. And she was a very effective prosecutor. And there's a famous dog mauling case where Court TV was starting to assert itself. And she was on there a number of times because she was prosecuting that case with a co prosecutor, deputy da. And it was a very high profile Case was getting a lot of national attention and she started getting a lot of national attention and she seemed quite gifted on tv. So much so that Roger Ailes eventually called her after she went to work part time for Core TV and then part time full time at Fox. We just got, I just got elected mayor. She just gets the job from Ailes. That's not a relationship that's going to last. But she always had that prosecutorial energy. She had an amazing father. Mom died very young in Puerto Rico, dad from Ireland and he was just this, you know, just blue collar. Worked for PG&E, just hard work, contractor part time and just raised his two kids after his wife died. Very young to be tough. That's who she is. But talking about a mask, you don't get to go on FOX for very long without putting that mask on. And that face grows into it pretty quickly. And that's what happened from my perspective. And then she, you know, presumably, I guess they must have fallen in love. Donald Trump Jr. Where they were engaged. And you just can't make that up, you know, from our first lady of San Francisco. Engaged, you know, and as we're going back and forth. So it's been a hell of a, you know, it's not easy to talk about these things. And it was a hell of a thing trying to edit what I wanted to say about this in the book knowing that my wife was likely to read it. So it's. But it's, you know, but I write about it and I try to be honest about it. And I also, you know, you know, got married in the church, you know, you know, you feel like a failure. And this book is about failure. It's about setbacks. It's not about triumphs. It's about mistakes. It's about, you know, it's hardly about, you know, perfection. I think if there's anything, maybe it's about perseverance. It's about discovery. A young man in a hurry, you know, became a memoir of discovery. The sub headline. Because I wrote a book that I couldn't go back and talk about my life to my mom and dad because they were no longer here. And so I had to go back and I had to start to learn about things I never knew about them, secrets they never shared, including why they got divorced. I found out about that in the process of writing the book. They never told me why they got divorced. I never understood why my father left. I never understood my mom's relationship to her father who took his life, was a prisoner of war. Corregidor who put a gun to her head when she was very young, threatening to kill her in a fit of rage of alcoholism again, eventually taking his own life. I never understood that connection. I never understood how that shaped her and how that shaped me and who I am today. Single mom, working two, three, sometimes four jobs. And by the way, I describe them in detail, that none of that is exaggerated. Who we had in our house our entire life, there was always a stranger there because we were renting out rooms. We were a foster family growing up. Just hard work. Single moms. Just single moms. Oh, my single moms. All the single moms out here. And so in many ways, this became a love letter to her. The things I can never say to her because she's not around. She never met my kids. You know, I talk about the day Trump called me. There was a moment. Oh, God, you think about your mom. Those moments. The inaugural. As a kid that struggled and still does with dyslexia. And again, back to my inability to look down and read speeches and how I felt like I was dumb. And there was plenty of evidence to back that up. And how my mom struggled with a son who's struggling. And, you know, she told me some piercing words that I write about in the book where she said it's okay to be average. And that did not sit well with me. And in the process of writing, I realized she was just saying it's okay. And in the process of writing this, I forgave her and I keep forgiving. And so it's a journey. But it came to just intense terms the day of the inaugural. And I'm reading the only thing I can read, which is a teleprompter speech. And it's, you know, they're not. These are not speech. These are not memorable speeches. My teleprompter speeches. I'm sort of fixed on the words, but I noticed the audience was not fixated on anything I was saying, because in the corner, I'm seeing this shadow running around my 3 year old who was sitting in the front row with his pacifier and his blanket. Dutch. Dutchy. And the crowd is kind of laughing a little bit. And he's running away from my wife. My wife's in a panic. People all paying attention. And he runs right up on stage as I'm speaking and bolts right to my leg. And I'm looking at the teleprompter. And with our first hundred days, we will. And people are like. And I look down, I'm like. And I, of Course, pick him up. And then what does he do? He puts his head right. A man, you can look this up. And I have to give the speech with my son. And I swear to you, to this day, there's never been a speech. People like, I want that speech again, because they don't remember a damn thing that I said. It was just the way everyone felt and the way I felt at that moment. I was like a true. Oh, if mom could see this. That's all she wanted for her son, that connection, you know? And so this book is about opportunity to make up for that. You know, my dad never had that. My dad was amazing. I love my dad. And I've never, ever doubted he loved me. Came back to my life much later, was a huge part of my life, but he never had that. Was here maybe, but is never here. The baritone of your life. And that kind of love is, to me, the most important. That's what this book is about. All the mistakes I made and how I'm trying to make up for them. I'm trying to be a better person. This young man in a hurry was too focused on himself. It was all about me, me, me. And one of the most profound moments where that just came crashing was when my mom and I write about this in the book where I get a voice message, and it's my mother. Hi, it's your mother. You may want to see me before next Thursday, because that will be my last day. Of course. I immediately then call my sister, what. What's going on? And she says, well, what's going on is you're not paying attention to anything. You're out there running around. You've got this little small business. You think you're all that as a county supervisor, and you haven't been paying attention to, mom, breast cancer's come back. I said, I know that. She goes, no, it's come back. I said, but she's going to be fine. She got this passed a year ago. She came over it. She goes, no, she's doing an assisted suicide next Thursday. And by the way, it was illegal in California at the time. And I know this is an issue. Trust me, I know the audience. I get it. And I didn't understand it. And so I had to come to grips with kind of jerk. I've been running around all about me, me, me, me, me. And to spend those last precious days with her. But I had to spend the last precious minutes and seconds with her. Courageous doctors willing to lose his license. And everybody said their goodbyes. They're in the living room, my sister and I are just with our mom, and she's looking through all the old photos, those sort of 70s patina photos. And the medicine's starting to doctor left. Medicine starting. And my sister's crying. I'm crying, and my sister looks at me. I'm like, go. It's okay. And she bolts out, and I'm stuck there. I'm like, I don't know that I can do this much longer. But she's still with us, and I'm holding her hand in those last breaths. Nothing romantic about this. I mean, talk about scars. Like, scars. That last breath. And then I just put my head down on her stomach for 20 minutes, and I said all the things I didn't even have the courage to say 20 minutes before. Just feeling the shame of that. And it was just this, wake up. Like, who the hell am I becoming? This is not why she lived and died for this. This guy. And so this is what this book's about. I'm scrutinizing my life. All the mistakes, all the insecurities, all the anxieties I have sitting up here with you today, that mark who I am. And I'm just trying to be a better person throughout all this. And by the way, just something that may or may not resonate with you, what a gift it was, you know, my first year as governor, to sign a bill in her memory allowing it to be legal in the state of California to at least allow the grace of that journey that is unique for everybody. And I, trust me, grew up in the church. I get it, how raw that is. So that's a little bit of the journey I've been on. And Kimberly was part of that journey. Sincerely, Donald Trump's a big part of that journey. You know, trials and triumphs. It's just, you know, it's who we are. It's being human. Let it go. Let it go.
- [54:32]
A
You know, I think so much of the book was about those fits and starts, and there was so much awkwardness. You were really awkward for a lot of it. But I think the one part of the book that felt different was when you were describing your relationship with Jen. And in that part, it was the only part I noticed. And I sat up while I was reading this part because that part flowed so effortlessly in a way that the rest of the book didn't. And I think that's inherently because that part is the part that worked. And so I think that that. That stuck out. And I think it's worth saying that
- [55:08]
B
because I love that because I did. Like, because when you see Jen, she's gonna, you know. Yeah.
- [55:14]
A
So let the record show.
- [55:17]
B
Blind date. When you give up, you're like, I'm never. You know, it's like. It's. It's like, such a cliche. There's a reason cliches are cliches. And it was a blind date. She's two hours late. I'm like, it's like, what it was tonight. And I'm like, it's not gonna work. And I was like, okay, hold on. And we spend plutonic time together, and everything's perfect. See her a couple days later, and then she says, I'm a Republican. I'm like, oh, come on. Everything about you is perfect. And she goes, well, it's just because my father is a Republican and he still is. And she starts talking to me about her life and her story and her journey and how she lost her older sister to an accident, how it shaped her and her journey, which I write about. And she was sexually assaulted by Harvey Weinstein and then assaulted again by a lawyer defending him. Disgraceful. Lawyer tried to intimidate and shame her. Disgraceful. No amount of money. The devil's advocate. I'll never forgive him for that. The courage of young women that do that. And she's a fierce warrior for women and girls. She's a feminist, and she's been out there. She did a documentary called Misrepresentation that Oprah bought about the Miss and underrepresentation of women and girls decades ago. I'm so proud of her. But there's a spirit in her because of what she went through. And I describe it, and I love that you bring this up. I describe watching her dance the first time I saw her dance. Oh, and this freedom. I mean, you see something. It's like we talk about love, all my west coast friends, love and light. And you're like, I don't understand that. And then I see it. I'm like, oh, love and light. And she's just a bright light. And, you know, she set me straight. She didn't know. She's like, I love your dad. She got to know my dad, but she's like, are you going to be like your father was? As a husband, she had to go through the Kimberly stuff. She had to deal with a lot of that afterwards. And we established that. Then she wondered, well, are you going to be your father again when it comes to our children? And so she took a leap of faith with me. And so if I didn't Describe her well, that's an injustice. And she is the rock and she's the constant. And I'm so in love and I'm so lucky. And she gave me the most precious things in the world. That are the four that are. I dedicate this to Brooklyn, Dutch Hunter and Montana. And as I dedicate to them, may they continue this story.
- [58:19]
A
I want to finish off with. The question I get asked the most when I see people, and I'm sure a question that you have to face a lot when you talk to people, and that is, are we going to be okay? And so I want to take this opportunity. While I'm sure there's a lot of people in this audience, a lot of people who are going to be watching online, who watch what we're contending with right now, see the ways in which our democracy is failing, our justice system is failing us, and obviously the apathy that we contend with among our voter base as well. And what do you say to folks who ask, are we going to be okay?
- [58:57]
B
What a perfect question, because it was expressed all day today at the memorial. We were talking about Ayers, we're talking about Malcolm X, we were talking about King, we're talking about Kennedy, we're Talking about the 60s, how we were torn asunder in so many ways, shapes or form. Even the early 70s. And, you know, I come from a city, San Francisco, 1906. Earthquake and fire. And our flag is the Phoenix. The Phoenix rising from the ashes. Ah, that's the resilience we have as a nation. Our capacity for renewal, rebirth. It's alive in all of us. I mean, it's alive in all of you. You haven't gotten a memo that you shouldn't be here for yourself or each other. You haven't dialed into the cynicism, the fear and the anxiety. You've had all this stacking of stress that grace. You haven't even given yourself this original book, by the way. This was not supposed to be a memoir. I submitted this to Penguin Pet Press, and the great Ann got off and she rejected my book. And I thought she was going to reject it because I had one chapter about my childhood and the rest of it was about COVID and social unrest, supply chain issues, and my first two years with Trump and two years with Biden, she goes. She goes, I want the memoir. And so I had to rewrite a brand new book. But in the old book, I talk about our resiliency and I talk about how we haven't given ourselves the grace to really reflect on Everything you guys have been through and gotten through just in the last five or six years, I would say since the escalator with Trump. But what many of you have lived through, going back decades and decades, what our grandparents lived through, my grandfather lived through as a prisoner of war, you know, but my great, great grandfather lived through, you know, during the Red Scare. And I write about his relationship to Oppenheimer and Linus, Pauline. He was his doctor. And, and all of that and all the FBI files. It's so, it echoes today. And we're here. We've had triumphs, not just tragedies, you know, since then. And so I'm, you know, I'm deeply optimistic. But again, it's in that spirit of, you know, the spirit of today that moved me. It's, you know, as we pray, move our feet, right? It's faith and works, you know, we just can't. I love the candlelight visuals, but not right now. You know, I'm sorry. We got to fight fire with fire. We've got to be as ruthless but lovingly as they are. They're not screwing around. They're trying to break this country. They're trying to break us. Shock and awe flooding the zone, dominating the nerve. That's Trump's great strength, is sussing up your weakness, exploiting it 24 7. He loves our indignation, he loves our outrage. All sort of folks on the dictatorial spectrum love that, but they don't like the mockery. They don't do well with humor. Trump struggled a little bit with our social media. It's gotten under their skin as we put that mirror up to their face. And so I, you know, you've all inspired us. You know, this imperial presidency that's having a birthday party with a military parade, that's putting his beautiful photograph on the side of the doj, Bobby's building, you know, putting his name and gold everywhere. Again, that's weakness masquerading as strength. And you are showing up, and you keep showing up over and over and over and over and over again. And we're going to show up just like they did in Texas, in record numbers this week. We're going to show up in record numbers this November, and we're going to celebrate Speaker Jeffries with the gavel, and we're going to celebrate the beginning of the renewal and rebirth of our country.
- [63:23]
A
Governor Gavin Newsom, thank you guys so much.
- [63:26]
B
Thank you for taking the time and still being here this late.
- [63:30]
A
Thanks again to Gavin Newsom. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Sunday. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesley and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me Ryan Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.
- [64:01]
C
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- [64:27]
B
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