← No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen
No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen
Kristi Noem impeachment picks up steam-- even among Republicans
00:56:14
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- [00:01]
A
Kristi Noem's impeachment prospects start to get real as Republican officials join in on the effort. And I've got four interviews. Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, and lawmakers Ro Khanna and Robert Garcia. I'm Brian Teller Cohen, and you're listening to no Lie. So it's almost impossible to be held accountable for anything if you're in the Trump administration, because when you violate the law and then people demand accountability, the Trump mantra of never admit fault, never take blame, never capitulate kicks in. And Trump rallies around his officials even harder. So, basically, the more deserving they are of facing accountability, the less likely it is to actually happen. Unless you screw up so royally that it becomes impossible for even Republicans to ignore. To that end, here's Lisa Murkowski and Thom Tillis, two Republican senators. Senator, do you have faith in Christy Noem as DHS Secretary? I've already made a statement on that. Oh, I wasn't there for it. Yeah, I said that. I've lost confidence in.
- [00:59]
B
Do you think that President Trump should.
- [01:01]
A
Remove her from the position? Do you think she should resign? It's obviously up to the president. I think we would be better served.
- [01:12]
C
With new leadership department.
- [01:14]
A
And if she doesn't leave on her own volition, or if the president doesn't fire her from the position, would you support something like impeachment? I have expressed my lack of confidence in her, and my voice is out there, and we'll see what happens.
- [01:34]
B
I think that what she's done in Minnesota should be disqualifying.
- [01:39]
C
She should be out of the job.
- [01:41]
B
And I mean, really, it's just. It's just amateurish.
- [01:45]
A
Now, Murkowski and Tillis are the first Republicans to join hundreds of Democrats in calling for Noem's impeachment. And the reason why isn't just the fact that she oversees ICE as the DHS secretary. And ICE can't see seem to manage not murdering people in the streets. It's also her sociopathic response to these killings. This individual showed up to impede a law enforcement operation and assaulted our officers. They responded according to their training and took action to defend the officer's life and those of the public around him. And I don't know of any peaceful protester that shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign. This is a violent riot. When you have someone showing up with weapons and are using them to assault law enforcement officers, I mean, it's just Orwellian. Like, virtually everything she says is a lie, and she Says it without an ounce of shame. Like she's like dead inside. That she could step up to a podium after an innocent VA nurse holding a phone gets murdered execution style by these ICE agents and she has the audacity to claim that he was a threat. Especially given the fact that we all saw the video. Like, if you believe what Kristi Noem is saying, you either do not have functional eyes or you're so steeped in partisan hackery that you've taken up residence inside of Trump's colon. And of course all of this has led to a massive backlash across the country. ICE is now a 7030 issue with 70% opposing it. I've seen a ton of non political people, people in sports and music and TV in the creator space, all having spoken out against ice, which is, you know, something that is increasingly rare, especially over the last few years. And of course, because politics is downstream of culture, that disgust is finally registering in the halls of Congress. And I think what was most striking is that as Thom Tillis said, this is on their best issue. Like immigration and border enforcement should be a gimme. If you are a Republican administration with full control of full Republican control of government, it is in part why Trump got elected. So to take that advantage and turn it into your biggest liability is almost impressive in terms of a bungled response. And I think part of it has to do with the fact that these ICE killings seem scientifically engineered to go against all of Republicans own principles. You've got a tyrannical secret police force unaccountable to anyone executing people in the streets. Like I seem to remember opposition to a big tyrannical government being a pretty dominant theme in Republican politics for literally my entire life. You've got these Trump officials claiming that having a legally concealed firearm holstered on your person is now a justification to be executed. Like I didn't have these people trying to erase the second amendment on my bingo card. And finally, it's just the blatant lying that puts on full display the extent to which this White House has utter contempt for their supporters. Like honestly, to to see a video where this nurse, Alex Preddy is holding a camera, gets pushed by an ICE agent, ultimately tackled by six men, his holstered gun taken away. And only after he's disarmed does an ICE agent unload a full clip into him at point blank range. And to then be told that the ICE agent is the victim and that Petty is an assassin is just a level of gaslighting that even the most die hard Trump supporters would be hard pressed to believe. And they're not. Which is why Christine Ohm is now facing a legitimate effort by Congress to be ousted. So will it work? Look, no one ever lost money betting on the cowardice of today's gop. I do know that if she was a Democrat, if Christine Owen was a Democrat, and this was during a Democratic administration, she'd have been criminally indicted by now. But what's clear is that the GOP is losing on this issue. And the fact that we're seeing a legitimate effort to impeach a Trump administration official in a White House where the number one rule is to never surrender is evidence of a pretty massive sea change here. Which is to say now isn't the time to be complacent. It is the time to double down. Kristi Noem should not be within 100 miles of the levers of power, and it's gonna take all of us putting pressure on every Democratic official to keep the heat up on this issue and every Republican official to join Murkowski and Tillis and hold her to account. Next up are my interviews with Tim Walls, Keith Ellison, Ro Khanna, and Robert Garcia. No LIE is brought to you by ZBiotics so what is the one small shift I've actually maintained this year? Reclaiming my mornings, I realized that a night of fun shouldn't cost me an entire day of productivity. 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- [07:34]
C
Thanks for having me, Brian. I appreciate it.
- [07:36]
A
So Governor Donald Trump just announced yesterday that he had had a conversation with you. Can you talk a little bit about what took place during that conversation?
- [07:45]
C
Certainly. And again, thanks for having us. Minnesotans have been through it, but I think the country has seen it more pretty resilient people. And I think it's pretty clear that the President was having that conversation because of the thousands of Minnesotans who are on the streets and because of the murder of Renee. And Alex started out with the President, you know, said that we got to, we can't go on like this, which he characterized it, that we're on the same wavelength. If we were, it's the agreement that this has got to stop. Now, I hope his end state is the same as my end state, which is removing these ICE agents and border patrol in this occupation of Minnesota, allowing us to investigate the folks who potentially I think a jury may find murdered two of my citizens and then do border enhancement according to law, border security according to law. This has nothing to do with that. So it was a, it was a conversation where I articulated what I needed. Look, I don't. I'd like to say that they got here because of the moral outrage that many of us felt on Saturday morning and then two weeks ago. But I don't know, maybe they got there because of politics, but I don't care, as long as they get there and get these folks out of here and, and quit this assault. So I, I would characterize it, I had to try and correct some facts that were incorrect. But at the end of the day, I think a commitment to. They want out of this, probably for the politics of it. I want out of it because of the moral outrage and the damage to being done.
- [09:12]
A
And that's a little bit of what I wanna dig into here. There is obviously speculation that because this has turned into a 70, 30 issue against Donald Trump where even, you know, forget independents, even Republicans are coming out and vocally oppos. What's happening in Minnesota? What's happening at the hands of ice. Do you think that Trump was just Looking for some off ramp to basically get out of there and just retain some shred of credibility on the issue of immigration.
- [09:41]
C
Yeah. And look, Brian, I think we all know that how you deal with this president is somewhat delicate. I don't know if that's the right word, that decisions are made on emotion. And in this moment, look, I don't. I don't see any change yet. I will just say I just met with Tom Holman and I would say that that did feel productive. You know, things that we need to see happen and things that need to change. Look, it is. It's untenable for them. The country has woke up and I think there's folks out there that we are heartbroken, we're outraged, we're sad. But I do think they're. What I felt going yesterday and this morning so far is a bit of optimism. And look, I have a deep sense of pride. That call happened yesterday because people stood on the streets in 40 below weather. That call stood on the streets because Alec Preddy's parents stood up and said, how dare you besmirch our son's name. And folks across the country did that too. So look, I think it's a combination that for them it is a big political problem. I would hope there's still a few people over there that see how outrageous this is. How it goes against the Constitution, goes against just basic dec. And that it's in both of our interests to get them out of here. And I hope that's the case. But look, until it happens, and that's what I told Tom Holman, I said it's just words until it happens. And there's a very narrow window here where people in Minnesota and across the country are gonna give them the benefit of the doubt to start course correcting this thing.
- [11:14]
A
You had mentioned Alex Preddy's family being rightfully upset at what the administration is saying about their son. Can I have your reaction to what hurt at the hands of Kristi Noem and J.D. vance and Stephen Miller and even Donald Trump. This idea that they would immediately come out and not just slander Alex Preddy, but pre clear the officer, the ICE agent who actually committed the crime of killing this guy while he had no. I mean, and I mean, it's the same thing with Renee Goode, but just this idea. Yeah. I mean, can I just have your general reaction to kind of the Orwellian rhetoric that's coming out of this administration?
- [11:52]
C
Yeah, and it is. And look, I. I'm trying to manage this, you know, and you Try and if the term is be a statesman or whatever, but I, I'm ready to bar fight on that because this is outrageous to besmirch these people's names and, and to talk to a set of parents or talk to a spouse who at simultaneously is receiving news within hours their loved one is brutally murdered in front of the world and then have the most powerful people in the world tell lies about someone in both cases who have tried to live exemplary lives as good neighbors. It is, it is this moral injury that is happening to this country that the minute they get out of here. But it's this type of thing. It's the little Liam in his little hat and his Spider man backpack. Every single person in Minnesota has now seen a car abandoned. It's like a hellscape of abandoned cars with their door open or the window broke and the, you know, their seatbelt cut. It's traumatizing on so many levels and it is accomplishing nothing. And again, I remind your folks who are out there listening, Minnesota ranks as one of the 10 states with the safest streets, the lowest numbers of violent crime. We are 28th in the number of undocumented folks that are living here. The vast majority of those folks are without criminal history. They simply have a civil case against immigration, many of them trying to go through the process. So look, we know what this is. This is about an intimidation. It's about an invasion. It's coupled with they're freezing our money. They're taking our money from our SNAP programs. Hell, they decided why they were at it. Why don't we just extort them for their voter files? They just threw it all at the wall. And I think for me, when it comes back to the human side of it, to listen to Michael and Susan, Alex's parents, in grief, but asking me, they said, whatever you get on an interview, can you tell the positive stories about Alex? I went and met with his co workers yesterday. ICU nurses at the VA might possibly be, as a group, the toughest people you will ever find and the most selfless people. That group is devastating. The idea that their co worker and somebody who is a leader in that office, like they said, and they said when they watched the video, they saw it. I mean, think of that horror. But they said the minute that that woman got pushed, they said Alex had no other choice but go to her. That was exactly what he was going to do. And so I just want to send out thanks to the rest of the country, but I don't know if I have words or the capacity in language to tell you just how traumatizing this is. This feels like. It feels like an invasion. And they came here all kitted up like they're in Afghanistan against US Citizens. And the minute that all these confrontations, you saw that this, the Whipple Federal Building here. One of the things we did is we took over the state of Minnesota, and I had the National Guard folks I served with when I was in the Guard. And instead of seeing tear gas and fighting and screaming, you saw National Guard folks with their name on their uniforms, no mask, handing out hot chocolate, coffee and donuts to people up there. And now we got a request from the protesters up there if they can bring food for the National Guard. This is the way it should be done. We have a job. We're going to protect their right to protest. If they throw anything or if they try and do anything that is, you know, against the law, of course we will enforce that. But standing there doing what Alex was doing, what Renee was doing, that's their right, and we'll protect it.
- [15:29]
A
You'd mentioned that extortion attempt by Pam Bondi, where. So you. You have all of these ICE agents come in, you have them incite all this violence, you have them murder American citizens and then try to hide their identities, and you have the administration doing their bidding by pre clearing all of these people. Is there some sense that we're seeing mob boss tactics at play here where, you know, the people who are responsible for the violence say, oh, we sure do wish this violence would go away. I think I have a way that we can do that. If only you're. You were to confer some political concessions onto me. I think we can. I think we can help each other out.
- [16:06]
C
Pretty hard for me to see it any other way. And the reason for being here has changed numerous times why they're here. And again, this false narrative on this. Minnesotans understand we need to have borders. Minnesotans need to understand that if you commit crimes here that you may need to be deported back. But Minnesotans also recognize there's folks that made arduous journeys to get here to try and put their children into school in little spider man backpacks while they're working their job. And that we understand that the reason that so many of these people are in this, you know, hellish state of limbo is because Republicans refuse to do comprehensive immigration reform and get more judges to adjudicate asylum claims that don't take seven years. They should take 90 days. So, yeah, I mean, coming down with that and and look, President, the one thing is, he usually tells you, I'll give him that. He says he won here three times and that the elections were rigged every time he ran. He did not. He lost here three times. And I have a hard time not thinking that maybe that's the actual real answer here. And he, he personally despises me, which, you know, I said, I'll take myself out of this. I won't run. Just leave us alone. But yeah, this is, this is what they're doing and, and people feel it. And here's the good news. I, I think there's a lot of folks in America who are losing faith. And I, you know, I get the Obi Wan speech that makes its way around as the Republic has fallen. And you know, the republic has not fallen and they've made their stand here in Minnesota and they're leaving. Greg Bavano is out of Minnesota. Minnesotans are still here standing firm. If they don't make further changes, we'll still be standing. And I made a note of this, Brian. It's special election here today, just couple of House districts or whatever. Minnesota is known for a lot of things. One of the things is, is our safe, secure elections. We are either in every election, either number one or number two with voter turnout. I'll go ahead and make a prediction right now you have not going to see anything like the number of people who vote in November. And I got tell you, there's, there's people around Donald Trump, at least a few of them must recognize and said we are going to get our asses handed to us in November. And so look, however you need to change course on this, I wish you were good human beings and change because of the moral outrage, but go ahead and change course based on the election, that's fine by me. Just get, get out of here and leave us to our work.
- [18:25]
A
So I, I understand, I understand the, the desire to want to like move past this, but I think also it's gonna be important to see some accountability for the people who have committed these crimes. And I use that term advisedly. I mean, when you have these ICE agents who've shot unarmed protesters like execution style in the streets, there's really no other way to cut it. Obviously, DHS is doing everything in its power to make sure that no investigation and certainly no prosecution takes place. And that includes withholding evidence from the BCA, from state investigators out there in Minnesota. And so can you talk about your commitment to making sure that even if Trump's Department of Justice doesn't move forward with any investigation or any legitimate investigation that state investigators are going to take this seriously and pick up where the DOJ is leaving off.
- [19:17]
C
Oh, we absolutely will. That is an absolute commitment to those families. It's a commitment to people Minnesota and people commitment to America. I mean, it's an outrage. And you described it pretty well, Brian. But keep in mind too, that after what they did with Renee Good and and took the evidence, didn't investigate, cut us out, never happened before, highly unusual. We were prepared this time and we were already the minute that this happened, we went to a court and we got a judicial warrant to be on that site. And they disregarded the judicial warrant. So look, I told Tom Holman today that there's several things he had to do. He has to reduce his force and he has to allow us to be part of this investigation. Look, I don't know. I don't know where the investigation will take it because unlike Kristi Noem, JD Bands, Donald Trump and the rest of them, I did not pass free our judgment. But if we do an investigation and an indictment is warranted, these ICE officers are coming back to Minnesota and stand trial for what they're held for. And that could range from many things, but I think a lot of people saw what they saw with their eyes and they know that that looked like murder to them. So, yes, and I would go one step further. That part is going to be critical. And like you said about this moving on, I don't want these ICE agents to move to Maine. I don't want them to move to Philly. They'll find out if they move to either one of those places that they'll find resistance they found here. But I don't want them to do that. I think there's a broader conversation here of the moral damage and the real damage that the administration has done in just one year when this thing is over, at whatever time that is, I think we're going to need nationwide, you know, truth and reconciliation on this because of them tearing us apart. They made us the enemies. They made us the enemies. They, they brought federal charges against me for having the audacity to tell people to express their First Amendment rights. They've done that to try and stifle people, for God's sakes. They tried to bring. They're, they're trying to do investigation on the wife of Renee Good. Yeah, it's a moral outrage. And just to leave here. It's not all going to get better. And that's what they need to know. And Look, I, I'll go ahead and make this prediction. The damage they've done to their political, you know, and to Republicans political future is already cast. I think Americans, every one of those people who stood in 40 degree weather, the tens of thousands who stood in minus 40 degree weather, you can be pretty sure they'll be in a warm voting booth come November, cast their ballot. So look, this is coming down on them. But I'm under no illusion that, that we are anywhere close to this being done, both for Minnesota and for the country. And so I just encourage people to stay, stay out there. We expect justice, we expect them to follow the rule of law. Those things are not happening right now.
- [21:54]
A
Perfect place to leave off. We'll leave it there. Governor Walls, I appreciate the time.
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C
Thank you.
- [22:02]
A
I'm joined now by the Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [22:06]
D
Thanks, Brian. Glad to be with you.
- [22:08]
A
So we've just witnessed two high profile killings now in Minneapolis. This is Renee Good and Alex Preddy. We've also seen that the Department of Homeland Security seems hell bent on making sure that state investigators don't get access to any of the evidence, any of the crime scenes, and on and on. How confident are you or can you offer some commitment here that state investigators will in fact be able to investigate what's gone on despite the best efforts of DHS to prevent that?
- [22:35]
D
We will do every single thing we can, and we are doing every single thing we can to do a full, complete investigation. That includes going to court last Saturday and yesterday to get a court order to preserve, protect and prohibit from alteration any evidence secured at the Preddy crime scene. We're also moving out, and I can't go into detail, Brian, but I can tell you that we are moving to obtain more evidence in the possession of the federal government and that they have no legitimate basis to state that they're not investigating the death of Renee Good and then refuse us access to the evidence. There's no legitimate position that could justify that, that behavior that speaks to cover up. And in the United States, when somebody is killed, use of force, death investigation, it's normal, natural and regular for there to be a joint investigation and for the federal government at the Department of Justice civil rights to do the investigation along with state authorities. They've refused to do that. Todd Blanche has said there will be no investigation. So how now can they say they're going to deny us access to that information? So I can assure you there is nothing that can deter us from getting to the bottom of this and getting to the truth.
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A
You know, there were a number of officials in the Department of justice at the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota who left the job in the aftermath of DHS's refusal to investigate Jonathan Ross, the ICE agent who killed Renee Goode. Is there any cooperation with these folks who are now out of the doj? Is there any effort to bring them in to the BCA or, or into, you know, any state office that's investigating this so that they can still use some of the knowledge that they have? And obviously these are folks who were looking to take a righteous of enough stand that they weren't willing to sit back while the DOJ was engaged in a cover up. So clearly they have some, some willingness to want to do good work. They just weren't going to be able to do it at the doj.
- [24:44]
D
Well, let me tell you, I mean, these are all very talented people. I mean, to get it to even work at the doj, you know, generally we expected folks who are there. It' it's a pretty prestigious place to work and so there's a lot of talent there. Whether or not they'll be integrated into what their next move is, I can't tell you right now. I can tell you that when Trump started, there was an exodus then and we ended up hiring four people from Department of Justice. And we're very pleased that they're with us right now. I've counted a number, about as many as 10 people who have quit in connection with the failure to act responsibly in the Renee Goode matter. Where these people land, I don't know. But I can tell you they're gifted, talented, and you and I can see they got some integrity in terms of.
- [25:36]
A
The ability for state investigators to continue with a potential prosecution even though they're not getting any access to any evidence. I mean, if you were to bring any information to a grand jury in the state of Minnesota, the bar, if I'm not mistaken, to secure a grand jury indictment is probable cause. Is that correct?
- [25:58]
D
That is right.
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A
I mean, you've already got that with the public videos that are available. So even if DHS isn't giving you access to any of the evidence at the crime scene, I mean, we've seen publicly available videos that are certainly, certainly exceed that threshold. And so is there gonna still be an effort to, even with the evidence that we have publicly available to secure, you know, to move forward with investigations and possible prosecutions, you know, given what we've got access to already?
- [26:28]
D
Well, Brian, I wouldn't agree that a videotape makes for a prosecution. I mean, I prosecuted the people who killed George Floyd. And I knew, based on my 36 years of being a lawyer that you couldn't just push play and win. It doesn't work like that. And if you're not a lawyer and you haven't ever tried a case, you may not quite understand all the tricks that the defense counsel can pull. And they're not tricks. They're due process. Okay. But I would say, I would not agree that it's just some easy thing, easily done. Push play button, you win. That's not true. And so I get a little nervous when I hear people say that, because it's like, oh, your job is nothing. And you don't really have to. This is enormously difficult work to do. And it's gonna. And if you really want to. If you want to do more than just get an indictment or a charge and you actually want to convict somebody, you got to give us the room to work and saying that, oh, this is easy. This is nothing. Just, you know, just. Just use the video. We're going to use the video. And I also want to correct one other thing, which is that we do have evidence other than. I mean, it's not like we don't have any evidence. We have a whole portal that the Hennepin county attorneys open and that the Attorney General is open, and we are getting critical evidence from the public every day, and the BCA is cataloging and documenting and storing evidence all the time. And we may yet get the cooperation from the feds that we need. We don't know. We're not going to foreclose the possibility. But what I don't want to. But I wanted to say is that one, this is not easy. Two, it is worth doing right the first time. Three, however happy you feel when there's an indictment or a charge, if we get there, and as a prosecutor, I have to put it like that. Okay. You will be much happier if we convict the person.
- [28:31]
A
Yeah.
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D
And so let's stay in the long game. I'm telling you, from the moment that George Floyd was killed till the time that we got, the conviction was not an overnight thing.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah, but it.
- [28:42]
B
But.
- [28:42]
D
But I think everybody in retrospect would say it was worth getting it right. So what I'm saying is that when it comes to pretty and good, no one has ever accused me of being afraid or reluctant to pursue justice. And I'm absolutely going to do that. And I'm going to do it with the Partnership of the Hennepin County Attorney's office, Mary Moriarty, and with the help of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, and I hope with the help one day of people in the FBI, should they change course.
- [29:15]
A
Have you had conversations with Kristi Noem or Pam Bondi or anybody in the DOJ or DHS or ice?
- [29:26]
D
No.
- [29:26]
A
You know, since this has taken place, since they've kind of stonewalled you, you.
- [29:31]
D
Know, well, let me tell you, one time I talked to J.D. vance one time. I've called Pam Bondi twice and didn't get a call back. And I've called the local U.S. attorney appointed by Trump and have received no return call. So that's about it.
- [29:49]
A
I'm joined now by Congressman Ro Khanna. Thanks for joining me.
- [29:52]
B
Thank you, Brian.
- [29:53]
A
So, Congressman, I wanted to have you on because you put together a really effective, in my opinion, list of things that we can do to hold ICE accountable, to push back against the overreach that we're seeing right now at the hands of this rogue lawless secret police agency. So can you talk a little bit about some of the things that we might be able to do right now to hold ICE to account, as you know, in the position that we're in right now, which is from the minority and then moving forward.
- [30:20]
B
Right. People are horrified by the state execution of an American, but they want more than tweets and Instagram videos and social media posts. They want a plan of action. So I'm going to be introducing a bill that I hope can unify Democrats. It'll have three core points to it. First, let's make sure that we are not funding ICE in terms of the shutdown bill. Second, let's repeal the $75 billion in multi year ICE funding. And third, let's end qualified immunity for these ICE agents and make sure that we're actually prosecuting ICE agents who break the law and hauling them in front of Congress. Now, it's gonna have 10 total, but those are the three core themes.
- [31:07]
A
So I wanna talk about the likelihood of any of these things passing given the fact that, look, right now Democrats are in the minority. But even if Democrats are in the majority, they still have to contend with the prospect of a veto by Trump. And so is there any way for Congress to actually get these things done given the fact that we can't go through regular course of order with Trump at the time of the food chain?
- [31:31]
B
First of all, we need to see Congress act right? I mean, the Republicans, when they were in the minority every day, would introduce or try to introduce legislation to repeal Obamacare. So the fact that we may not be in power doesn't mean that we go to sleep. We should be on the floor introducing what the legislation would be if we were in the majority. Second, there are Republicans who have emailed me, who I've worked with on the Epstein matter, who are concerned about government overreach. They're concerned, frankly, from a Second Amendment perspective, because the person was carrying a handgun, but which was legal. And, you know, they certainly don't want a precedent of the federal government overreaching and killing people with guns. So I do think, like we did with the Epstein files, we can find unique coalitions to move forward. But what I was saying with that agenda is let's get to work on it. Let's be introducing legislation every day, holding hearings every day, making sure that we are trying the discharge petitions, making sure we're trying coalitions showing up for field hearings like the Progressive Caucus did in Minnesota. Not just, oh, well, we're not in charge. Let's wait till 26 or 28. No.
- [32:38]
A
What are we doing now in terms of DHS funding? Obviously, the bill eked out of the House, but now in the Senate, Chuck Schumer came out and said that basically Senate Democrats are not going to be a party to passing any budget that includes this DHS funding. And so do you have any degree of confidence that there will be enough Republicans who see the abuses at the hands of these ICE agents and say, you know what? I think this is? This is a hill that we're not worth, that we're not willing to die on, so let's relent here.
- [33:06]
B
I think the baby. If the Democrats, of course, stay unified, then they can't pass it because this is not reconciliation. They need 60 votes. So I'm glad there's a line even for Schumer that seeing the state execution of Americans is too much and, you know, and that we're going to hold together. I mean, look, Bill Clinton, whose politics are much more centrist than mine, I mean, his statement saying he's concerned for this country, he doesn't know what's happening in this country, could not have imagined that you'd have state government officials shooting American citizens. It is horrifying.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, just literally executing them in the street. And then on top of that, to your point that you made before, to lean on this excuse that, oh, well, they were armed. This is Republicans saying that somebody being armed is a pretext to be able to just serve as judge, jury, and executioner and kill them in the street. Two of the other things that you had spoken about that I want to talk about here. One is the idea of impeaching Noem and Pam Bondi. Obviously, Kristi Noem continues, even in the face of all of this, to go out and just lie brazenly and claim that the. That the victim here was a domestic terrorist with no basis to do so, no evidence to claim that you have Pam Bondi doing the exact same thing. Is there an appetite among your Republican colleagues to actually move forward with some.
- [34:31]
B
Type of impeachment with Pam Bondi? Absolutely, yes. And that stems in part from the Epstein files. I mean, she has covered up with the Epstein files. There is a lot of Republican discontent. Massey and I have been talking about impeaching her or doing inherent contempt. And we will be moving forward in the next couple weeks as we're gathering more Republicans. And there's a through line here, right? The elite impunity between Epstein and the elite impunity between pardons for political contributions and the elite impunity allowing ICE agents to kill American citizens without investigating prosecuting them. It's just an administration that lies and doesn't have accountability with Noem, Again, more. Less support than maybe Pam Bondi, which has been in the culture for weeks. But now I'm starting to hear from some of the same Republicans are working with me on Epstein and on Bondi that she has engaged in government overreach, especially on this issue of the Second Amendment. They don't want a precedent of an Attorney General or a Department of Homeland Security giving instructions to shoot people just because they have arms. And I do think that this could be a dividing line where they see the ICE thing less from an immigration perspective and more from a government overreach perspective in a violation of freedom. So I think those are two realistic impeachments that we should pursue starting next week.
- [36:00]
A
One of the other things that I. That I had, that I thought was especially interesting in your list was the idea of investigating and prosecuting every ICE agent who broke the law. Obviously, we saw Jonathan Ross, who executed Renee Goode just about a week ago, and now we have this latest ICE agent who executed Alex Preddy, also in Minnesota. And yet the reality is that we already know DHS is not allowing the BCA state investigators in Minnesota to have access to the crime scene. They want to have retained full jurisdiction so that state investigators don't get to do any prosecution at the state level. And that's for the express purpose that. But Pam Bondi and The rest of the law enforcement officials at DOJ have already pre cleared any ICE agents and have decided that they can act with impunity so long as they're politically aligned with Trump. And so how much confidence do you have that we are gonna see some accountability given the fact that without even engaging in a modicum of investigation, we have Pam Bondi, JD Vance, Donald Trump, any other Trump administration official who's already decided by fiat that anything these ICE agents do is completely justified and in fact, the victims are somehow the perpetrators.
- [37:11]
B
Well, no confidence.
- [37:12]
E
First of all, J.D.
- [37:13]
B
Vance doesn't understand the law. He's talking about absolute immunity for ICE officers. ICE officers don't have absolute immunity. There's no immunity from criminal prosecution. They have qualified immunity, meaning Renee Good or Petri's families can't sue the ICE officer civilly. And I'm saying we should eliminate that qualified immunity. But they have no immunity from criminal prosecution. JD Vance just literally made that up. And he made that up because that's this administration's policy. You literally can have the government use force against an American citizen, use violence against an American citizen, and they believe there's no accountability. I mean, that is the definition of authoritarianism, that a citizen does not have rights against the state's use of force. It's such a horrific thing that Justice Department civil rights attorneys that I know are resigning, six of them resigned because there's no investigation into the killer of Renee Good. And my view is that we need to make it very clear that when we take back the Congress, these people will be hauled in front of the Oversight Committee. When we take back the White House, these people will be prosecuted. But we need to make a list, keep a list of everyone who's been violating the law under the Trump administration, whether those are people who are killing boatsmen and Venezuela, whether they're people who dismantle agencies that killed people in Africa, whether it's people who have engaged in illegal conduct in ice. And they all need to be held accountable and investigated and prosecuted, not out of retribution, but out of a sense of justice. Because without justice, you cannot have reconciliation. Without a sense of affirming the rule of law, this country cannot move forward. So I'm not one of those people who thinks, kumbaya, let's move forward, all is forgiven. But I think we need to make it clear that there's going to be consequences when we have the Congress and the White House. And one more point, Brian, on that. That's going to also provide a counter incentive in the next three years for them not to act with impunity because they know they would go to jail when the new administration comes into town.
- [39:15]
A
And I'm so glad that you said that because, you know, the last time that we were in kind of an analogous situation, which is Joe Biden takes over, Merrick Garland take over in the aftermath of Trump trying to overturn an election. And we have a DOJ that's so focused on preventing the optics of politicization that they don't touch Donald Trump for two years. Finally, they deign to appoint a special counsel two years in to Joe Biden's term, giving Trump enough time to basically, you know, delay his way out of these charges wins the presidency. And now the first thing Trump does is basically absolve anybody who committed crimes in his name and just, and legalize crime, so long as you do it on behalf of Donald Trump. But the only reason that he felt emboldened enough to do that, the only reason that we're seeing any of these people act in such a way that there's no, as if there's no consequences, is because when Democrats have had power in the past, they refuse to wield it. And when we have the opportunity to hold people to account for having committed crimes, we are so focused on not wanting to seem political that in effect we just allow them to run roughshod over democracy and relegate Democrats to like non existent status in the United States. And so it's just so self defeating on the Democrat side. And then just more broadly, as far as democracy is concerned, you can't have a functioning democracy if one side is allowed to, is allowed to, you know, just completely ignore the rules and for whom the law doesn't even apply.
- [40:43]
B
Well, that's very well said, Brian. I mean, we should never be exercising power for retribution or power in an unconstitutional way. But your point is we've been reluctant to exercise power for justice because of the political optics, because we're afraid of what people will think. Well, that's wrong. You can't just be so afraid about political perception that you're not willing to exercise power justly and make sure people have accountability. And this has been going on for decades. Remember when the people went who committed torture in Iraq and got us into a war in Iraq with lies? They were never held accountable. What about the bankers who created the Great Recession and hollowed out the savings of all Americans and homeowners? They were never helped. No prosecutions of the bankers. Right.
- [41:33]
A
You know, that's such an important point because that is in large part, the mentality that Trump exploited to win the presidency. I mean, this idea that there's two tiers of justice, that you have a cabal of, of people at the top who never get held accountable, who can commit crimes with impunity. And he basically leveraged the anger that Americans have with that exact thing and used it to propel himself into the White House. And now he's just basically exacerbating that exact phenomenon, except for his own friends and his own political allies. It's just the peak of hypocrisy.
- [42:06]
E
It is.
- [42:07]
B
That's what Epstein is all about. Right? I mean, Epstein said, I'm gonna go get Epstein. These people who raped underage girls from working class families. Now, no, I'm not going to go after my friends. And now he's partnering people who literally are giving him political contributions. And now he has allowed people to commit crimes in his behalf, in killing people. He's allowed people to dismantle agencies that are killing people. And if we just get in what we do and say, okay, all is forgiven, let's move on, then the next Republican, once it comes into power is going to think, okay, I'm just going to commit whatever crimes I want. I mean, the reality is that we need to learn that Merrick Garland's a decent human being. Maybe he would have been a fine justice. He was a terrible Attorney General. And, you know, we should have had someone in that position who is actually going to go after the crimes. I mean, you know, I know Vice President Harris was, you know, did well as Vice President, but she would have actually had the, the chops to go after people. As an Attorney General, you need someone who's aggressive and gonna actually fulfill the law.
- [43:14]
A
Right. And deter criminals from committing crimes in the future. And that's something that we don't have, which is why we have such an emboldened MAGA Republican Party right now. Because why wouldn't they? What Democrats have shown them that there's some deterrent value to doing anything that they're doing. I wanna finish off with this. We have seen the way in which ICE has comported itself. Should ICE continue to exist? Is it salvageable in any form? No.
- [43:40]
B
And that should be the answer across the Democratic Party. Absolutely not. It has been corrupted. It has been tainted. It is an agency that is rogue, that is killing American citizens. Tear it down. Start a new agency that has oversight. Look, you of course need immigration enforcement. No one would say you can't. You should not enforce immigration laws. Of course you need a secure border and have to enforce immigration laws. But, but we had the INS for decades before we had ice. And what has happened with ICE is beyond redemption. I mean, they have hired people who have no training, who are acting like goons and have militarized budgets and they have no oversight. And so the Democrats need to be clearly for tearing it down, replacing it with an agency that actually works under justice for Human Rights. And that's one of the points I have in this resolution, that we shouldn't be afraid of it. I think this is the moment for a realignment, for a bold agenda for the party. People are desperate for it.
- [44:44]
A
Perfectly put. We'll leave it there. Congressman, thank you so much as always for the time and for your leadership on these issues.
- [44:49]
B
Thank you, Brian.
- [44:52]
A
I'm joined now by the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia. Congressman, thanks for joining me.
- [44:56]
E
Sure thing.
- [44:57]
A
So we've seen a number of abuses play out as it relates to ice with Kristi Noem in charge of the Department of Homeland Security. What punishment, what consequences should she shoulder because she's in charge of this agency?
- [45:10]
E
Well, she should be impeached. I mean, look, if Kristi Noem doesn't resign or removed from office, that impeachment procedure should start immediately. I'm one of the co authors of the impeachment resolution that's now in front of, of the Congress. There is no question that she has gone above and beyond the crimes, what she's done to rip up our Constitution, due process for US Citizens, the way she's treating people, the way that she and her agents have now, of course, now are killing Americans and people on the streets of our country is not only shameful, every American should be so disturbed by the images they're seeing now. And to have her and others come out and say that everything that the agents are doing is correct or somehow that we shouldn't believe what we're seeing. Obviously we're all, all of us are outraged by it. And so she must be impeached. And those, those efforts are underway. And I know that Oversight, Judiciary, Homeland Security, those three committees are going to be very involved in that process.
- [46:16]
A
Can you talk a little bit about the appetite among your Republican colleagues? Because obviously they're going to play a major role in this if, you know they have a majority in the House and they're in charge of all these committees.
- [46:25]
E
Look, some of the Republicans are obviously starting to grow a little bit of a spine. You're starting to see some members of Congress actually ask for independent investigations. Talk about the shooting as it relates to needing additional information. So, look, there's, there's something there. At the end of the day, I think most Republicans in Congress, they are committed, they bend the knee to Donald Trump whenever he wants. But we have to push that. Their majority is so slim that we've got to push aggressively to get this impeachment moving. And hopefully we just need a couple Republicans to join us.
- [47:00]
A
We've seen Republican defections on issues that have become, you know, 70, 30 or 80, 20 issues before the Epstein file discharge petition happened because there was so much public pressure to the point where Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, Thomas Massie, all signed onto this effort and ultimately the law was passed out of the House and signed by Trump. Now we have another issue that's become a 70, 30 issue with the way that ICE is abusing their position. 70% of Americans, again, do not approve of what we're seeing right now at the hands of ICE and so does there still exist the possibility that if we saw this come up for a vote that the pressure would be great enough on even these few Republicans who would, who could defect and make a majority that we can actually see some movement on this issue?
- [47:43]
E
I mean, look, we're going to find out. I think there could be. There are a lot of Republicans that are running for reelection in some in districts that Kamala Harris won, many others that are trying to find their spine again and trying to do the right thing. And they're seeing Donald Trump and his complete erratic behavior. Donald Trump is losing his mind. I mean, he can't even put together coherent sentences. He can barely reach out to the American public and explain what he's trying to do on any given day. And now he's going to American cities and turning ICE into his own police force. And so there's a lot of work ahead for us to do. The impeachment proceedings need to start immediately.
- [48:22]
A
To what extent do you think, were you surprised to see organizations like the nra, Gun Owners of America, former Bush officials who were in charge of standing up the Department of Homeland security back in 2002, all of these people kind of coalescing into this one narrative that they are vehemently opposed to what the administration is saying right now, whether it's trying to vilify Alex Preddy for the crime of holding a gun for which he had a concealed carry permit and never even held cuz he was holding his phone all the way up to just again, to your exact point, these executions at the hands of These ice age. What does it say that all of these, even right wing voices are coming out in opposition to this?
- [49:07]
E
Yeah, it's been really great to actually see some of these right wing groups come out. I mean, the fact that the NRA said anything, yeah, I think it's a really important step forward. But as important as some of these right wing groups have been, a lot of these right wing voices and leaders online, I've seen folks that have essentially always supported Trump, beginning now to say, hey, this is wrong. What ICE is doing is wrong. These are US Citizens. Why is ICE attacking folks this way? Why are we losing our civil liberties? The fact that DHS said that he had a, had a gun, that has nothing to do with the fact that he wasn't using it. He's allowed to carry. People in this country are allowed to carry. And having a gun, that is not a reason to just murder someone because they are actually filming an incident, an ICE operation. And so. So I think a lot of folks right now are finally beginning to see the terror of this administration and the damage that Donald Trump is doing to this country. And so I hope those folks continue to be loud and continue to voice their opposition.
- [50:10]
A
You know, in the Aftermath of the 2024 election, there was a lot of talk about the damage that the Democratic brand had sustained. Cut to we're now in January of 2026. Today, the gubernatorial candidate for the Republican Party in Minnesota dropped out because the brand of the GOP is so toxic that he didn't even think it was worth it to run as a Republican in that state. And so can I have your reaction to kind of that, that switch that we're seeing right now at the hands of a party that had, you know, clear Runway, everything going for them to the point where just, you know, a year later, they can't even run as Republicans in certain states because. Because what Trump has done to that brand is so egregious.
- [50:55]
E
Well, absolutely. And let's look at the polling and the research. I mean, first, Trump is historically unpopular right now. He's never been this unpopular, not just with the American public, with his own base. Yeah, the MAGA brand is underwater completely. Really, I'm seeing these numbers. And what's really interesting is he's not just doing poorly in traditional areas like health care or even on the Epstein files issue, but now on immigration, he's underwater on what used to be his signature issue where the American public has turned on him on the one issue where he had a lot of strength. And so what you're also seeing is Republicans across the country trying to distance themselves. But more importantly, I think you're seeing energy on the Democratic side. We have a real shot not just of winning the House, but winning the Senate. If we can somehow win the Senate, which will be very hard, there's no question about it. But if we can win the Senate and the House, we are on our way to then winning the presidency in 28 and once and for all, putting Maga away as a horrific mark in our history, reversing all of the terror that Donald Trump has caused, and actually real agenda on day one that can be implemented with both houses of Congress. Because you're talking about Alaska, which is looking way better today than it did before. You're talking about states where Ohio is looking better than it did before. We're going to win states when we have to win states like Michigan, obviously, and New Hampshire. But look, there's an opportunity for us in places like Texas. And so we need to play in every single state, including Maine. And there is an actual shot here. It's an outside chance, but a real chance at the Senate as well.
- [52:44]
A
You know, I'm glad you spoke about what we can do moving forward if we have majorities. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the ways in which Trump kind of feels emboldened and empowered to do, you know, to commit these, these criminal acts with impunity. And I think that was in large part due to the fact that there was no determination, deterrent, effect for him back in 2024. I mean, he tried to overturn a free and fair election. Merrick Garland didn't even touch him for two years, and only then did he deign to appoint a special counsel. But so much time had elapsed that he was able to effectively run out the clock. And so I understand the Democrats have to be focused on delivering, but I think that there's also a lot of real damage and danger in kind of advancing with an agenda where we don't look to hold anybody to account for any of the wrongdoing that they've committed, because then they feel emboldened to do it again. That's what we're seeing right now. It's playing out in real time. And so can you talk a little bit about the accountability that these folks have to shoulder so that in the event Republicans win at some point in the future, they don't proceed with the abject lawlessness that we're seeing right now because nothing bad ever happens to them at the hands of feckless Democrats.
- [53:56]
E
That's where the Oversight Committee comes in. That's where a strong attorney general that the next president will hopefully be a Democrat will put in place. Look, I've said from day one that we cannot just move on. We cannot just pretend that this didn't happen. We can't just put together this forward looking agenda and not actually then hold those that cause harm accountable. Because we need to be able to tell the next generation that this period of time was led by, by a corrupt administration and an administration that harmed the American public. That should never happen again. And so holding folks, not just like, not just Donald Trump himself and the family that is causing corruption across the world, but folks like Pam Bondi and Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem. These folks have to be held accountable. They have to be. They have to be look at the American public and the courts and account for what they did. So that's why the investigations and subpoenas and holding folks in contempt and impeachment are gonna be really critical in the months and certainly when we have the majority.
- [55:04]
A
Last point, I wanna touch on here. Is ICE salvageable?
- [55:09]
E
No. You have to abolish ice. There's no question. Look, this is not an agency that can be reformed. It's not an agency that we can somehow retrain. ICE needs to be abolished and we need to begin to rebuild real federal law enforcement, which we had in this country before in decades ago. We actually had. There were functions that ICE performed that other agencies used to perform. And now we have a essentially paramilitary force that's only accountable to Donald Trump.
- [55:37]
C
Right.
- [55:38]
A
We'll leave it there. Congressman, thanks so much for the time. I appreciate it.
- [55:41]
E
Thank you.
- [55:43]
A
Thanks again to Tim Walls, Keith Ellison, Ro Khanna and Robert Garcia. That's it for this episode. Talk to you this weekend. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicoterra. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me ryanteller Cohen on all of my other channels. Or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more. Comfort is often the first thing we're willing to give up, like taking a long flight for a vacation or waking up early for a workout. But don't let style be the reason you aren't comfy. Mack Weldon's ace collection makes it effortless to look put together while feeling truly comfortable. No compromises needed. For over a decade, Mack Weldon has.
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