No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen — "Trump Floods the Zone -- by Design"

Date: January 26, 2025
Host: Brian Tyler Cohen
Guests: Rep. Daniel Goldman, Tommy Vitor, Norm Eisen

Episode Overview

This episode tackles Donald Trump’s aggressive and chaotic strategy early in his (second) term, described as “flooding the zone”—rapidly enacting extreme, norm-shattering policies and executive actions to overwhelm opposition and normalize authoritarianism. Brian Tyler Cohen examines Trump’s moves (from mass pardoning Jan 6 insurrectionists to reversing decades of civil rights progress), and how Democrats can effectively counter these tactics. The episode includes extended interviews with Rep. Daniel Goldman, Pod Save America’s Tommy Vitor, and former Obama ethics czar Norm Eisen, each bringing unique insights into the legal, political, and messaging battles ahead.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s ‘Flood the Zone’ Strategy

• Purposeful Overload: Trump, following Project 2025’s playbook, executes a blitz of executive actions (withdrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement, WHO, rescinding civil rights orders, firing inspectors general, etc.).
• Psychological Warfare: Brian emphasizes the goal is not just policy—it’s to demoralize and numb the opposition so abuses become normalized.
  • Quote: “If all of that feels like an insurmountable amount of shit being thrown at us, that is by design. That is the point.” (03:04)
• Expert Analysis – Mark Elias: Trump acts illegally to assert he can “get away with anything,” knowing Republicans won’t oppose him.
  • Quote: “He wants to force illegal and compromised processes from the get go because he wants to set that precedent that he can show that he can get away with anything…” (02:38)

2. How Democrats Should Respond

• Messaging is Key: In the minority, Democrats must focus their power into cohesive, resonant messaging.
  • Quote: "Pressure works even when we don’t have power." (04:33)
• Target What Resonates: Bryan argues that the best counter-messaging is exposing Trump's failure to deliver on kitchen table promises (like lowering costs), rather than amplifying every outrageous move.
  • Quote: “How is eliminating DEI going to lower your grocery costs? ... It's not.” (05:07)
• Learning from ACA Fight: Past victories (defending ACA) show pressure works—even from the minority.

3. Interview: Rep. Daniel Goldman on Trump’s Pardons (08:32–21:16)

• Immediate Aftermath: Trump instantly pardons all Jan 6th rioters—over 1,000 people.
  • Goldman: “This is a horrific and absolutely unbelievable decision ... [choosing] insurrectionist rioters and far right extremists over our brave men and women in law enforcement. That says everything...” (09:20)
• Empowering Extremism: Pardoning leaders of the Proud Boys/Oath Keepers emboldens violent, anti-democratic actors.
• Legitimizing Mob Tactics: Goldman recounts how this chills democracy by making politicians fear for their safety.
  • Quote: “If you have elected officials who are influenced in doing their job because of concerns for their own personal safety, that fundamentally degrades our democracy. And Donald Trump knows exactly what he's doing.” (14:07)
• No Remorse, Only Validation: Pardoned insurrectionists, like the “QAnon Shaman,” boast about buying guns—proving Trump’s actions breed more danger.
  • Goldman: “Perhaps the most authoritarian action, separate from January 6th, our country has really ever seen.” (16:51)
• Pattern Recurring: Goldman and Brian both note the similarity to 2016-2020: Trump makes big working-class promises and only delivers for elites.

4. Interview: Tommy Vitor on Media, Messaging, and Immigration (23:31–37:40)

• On Fox News Appearance: Vitor explains why, in today's fractured information landscape, it’s vital for Democrats to show up on hostile platforms, not just among allies.
  • Quote: "It's time to go into some unfriendly places, answer tough questions, push back a little bit." (23:49)
• How Right-Wing Media Spins: Vitor points out how quickly Fox changed its line on "backing the blue" after Jan 6 pardons—now justifying violence against police.
• Unpopular Moves: Pardoning J6 is seen as an egregious use of political capital, with little public appetite for legitimizing cop-beaters.
• Immigration as a Weapon: Trump will pick fights with blue-state "sanctuary cities" to create media boogeymen while imposing sweeping, cruel policies.
  • Quote: “He needs a boogeyman in all of this. Always needs an enemy.” (29:05)
• Democratic Messaging: Urges a common sense, pro-humanity approach—secure borders, fair and orderly processes, protection for Dreamers.
• Dangers Ahead: Vitor and Brian express concern that Trump’s team (esp. Stephen Miller) is ideologically committed to mass deportation—with real economic and humanitarian costs.
  • Quote: “These are not people who are just going to be happy with trying to get some PR victory. ... They are going to want to actually carry out the plans that they believe they have a mandate for.” (34:47)
• Trump’s Contradictory Economics: 25% tariffs on Mexico/Canada will hurt ordinary Americans, contradicting Trump’s promises to lower costs.
  • Brian: “The adverse impact that that's gonna have on our economy seems so counterintuitive and so harmful to the very thing that he cares about most.” (36:46)

5. Interview: Norm Eisen on Legal Pushback and Media Initiatives (37:40–53:09)

• Legal Action Day One:
  • First Lawsuit: Challenging the doge (Department of Government Efficiency) for lack of transparency and partisan hiring, setting a standard for accountability.
    • Quote: "You can't pick and choose, say, 'Oh, I'm going to exclude Democrats from government service.' And there's a lot of secrecy..." (38:14)
  • Second Lawsuit: (With ACLU, LULAC, NAACP, others) Suing Trump for his executive order to end birthright citizenship—what Eisen slams as “dictatorial decrees”—arguing it’s blatantly unconstitutional.
    • Quote: “He’s rewriting the Constitution with one of his dictatorial decrees. Don’t call them executive orders. It’s a dictatorship decree. My word is greater than the Constitution.” (41:20)
• Broader Resistance Vision:
  • Eisen describes the “Day one dictatorship and day one democracy,” urging the courts, states, and civil society to fight for the rule of law, pluralism, and push back against scapegoating.
  • Cites his “Marshall Plan for American Democracy”—a playbook for coordinated resistance.
• Launching ‘The Contrarian’:
  • Eisen and Jen Rubin leave mainstream media, founding a pro-democracy, “no false equivalence” publication filling the vacuum left as legacy outlets cave to authoritarian pressure.
    • Quote: “We pride ourselves on being fast and first… extremely pro-democracy. For your reported opinion on The Contrarian.” (52:20)
  • Critiques legacy media (Washington Post, ABC, CBS, social platforms) for anticipatory obedience, gaslighting, and downplaying existential threats to democracy.
    • Quote: “We need to do much better and that's what we do at The Contrarian. And that's why we've had this enormous explosion of popularity.” (49:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Trump’s Strategy:

  "If all of that feels like an insurmountable amount of shit being thrown at us, that is by design. That is the point."
  — Brian Tyler Cohen (03:04)

• On Lawlessness:

  “Donald Trump is a lawless president … he wants to set that precedent that he can show that he can get away with anything and that Republicans won't back him down.”
  — Mark Elias (02:38)

• On Pardons & Police:

  "Don't tell me that you backed the blue because what you did is back the coup and that is what happened on January 6th."
  — Rep. Daniel Goldman (12:17)

• On Threats to Democracy:

  “If you have elected officials who are influenced in doing their job because of concerns for their own personal safety, that fundamentally degrades our democracy.”
  — Rep. Goldman (14:07)

• On Motivating Extremists:

  “We've been validated by Trump ... Perhaps the most authoritarian action, separate from January 6th, our country has really ever seen.”
  — Rep. Goldman (16:51)

• On Talking to Fox News:

  "It's time to go into some unfriendly places, answer tough questions, push back a little bit."
  — Tommy Vitor (23:49)

• On Trump’s Need for Enemies:

  “He needs a boogeyman in all of this. Always needs an enemy.”
  — Tommy Vitor (29:05)

• On Immigration’s Human Costs:

  “Once it's being implemented and you are seeing family separation at an industrial scale, do people still support that? I hope not.”
  — Tommy Vitor (33:43)

• On Legal Pushback:

  “You can't pick and choose, say, 'Oh, I'm going to exclude Democrats from government service.' ... There's a lot of secrecy surrounding the doge.”
  — Norm Eisen (38:14)

• On Dictatorial Decrees:

  “He’s rewriting the Constitution with one of his dictatorial decrees. Don’t call them executive orders. It’s a dictatorship decree.”
  — Norm Eisen (41:20)

• On Media Failure:

  “We pride ourselves on being fast and first… extremely pro-democracy. For your reported opinion on The Contrarian.”
  — Norm Eisen (52:20)

Key Segment Timestamps

• Trump’s “Flood the Zone” Discussion: 00:29–07:29
• Rep. Daniel Goldman Interview (Jan 6 pardons and the chilling effect): 08:32–21:16
• Tommy Vitor on media, messaging, immigration: 23:31–37:40
• Norm Eisen on lawsuits, legal resistance, The Contrarian: 37:40–53:09

Takeaways for Listeners

• Trump’s chaos is intentional and strategic—the goal is to disorient and numb the public while normalizing extreme abuses.
• Democratic messaging must cut through the noise—focus on Trump’s broken promises, not get lost in every outrage.
• The mass pardoning of Jan 6 insurrectionists emboldens anti-democracy forces and fundamentally threatens rule of law and the safety of public officials.
• Media outreach on all platforms—including Fox News—matters more than ever. Retreating to friendly audiences isn’t enough.
• Legal pushback and new media ventures (e.g. The Contrarian) are emerging as vital tools against authoritarian drift and systemic disinformation.
• Legacy institutions and media are often failing to meet the urgency of the moment, making independent, pro-democracy outlets crucial.

This summary brings together all of the episode’s major insights, recommendations, and warnings—serving as a comprehensive digest for those who missed the show or want to revisit the key takeaways.