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- [00:01]
A
Trump heads into 2026 the weakest he's ever been. And he put that on full display with his final statements during the holiday break. And I've got three interviews. Ro Khanna and Robert Garcia discuss major updates with the Epstein files. And Norm Eisen discusses a surprise Trump loss at the U.S. supreme Court. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen and you're listening to no Lie. The last few weeks of this year have shown us something that we've not seen at any point in Trump's term, and that is an increasingly weak, isolated, desperate lame duck president. The Epstein files have exposed themselves as Trump's Achilles heel, ironically enough, because it was his administration, his right wing media, his allies, who groomed their supporters into recognizing that any involvement with Epstein's pedophile ring is a red line. JD Vance, Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, Pam Bonty all ran on this idea that they would expose the wealthy, powerful individuals who conspired with Epstein to cover up his heinous crimes. Turns out the individual who would do the most to cover up those crimes was the guy that they're working for this week. Trump took to True Social on Christmas night when he was supposed to be celebrating Republicans hard fought victory in the war on Christmas, where we can now go into department stores and hear the clerks finally unafraid to say Merry Christmas, went online on Christmas and tried to distance himself from Epstein by attacking, quote, sleazebags who attended his parties. Which is quite the statement for a guy who very famously is seen in footage with Epstein at his parties. But it got worse. The day after Christmas, Trump took to True Social again to write, quote, now a million more pages on Epstein are found. DOJ is being forced to spend all of its time on this Democrat inspired hoax. When do they say no more and work on election fraud, et cetera. The Dems are the ones who worked with Epstein, not the Republicans. Release all of their names, embarrass them, and get back to helping our country. The radical left doesn't want people to talk about Trump and Republican success only a long ago dead Jeffrey Epstein just another witch hunt. So I don't know how much more on the nose it gets than Trump literally just demanding that nothing else incriminating come out about Republicans. Like, I wonder who that's intended to protect. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that a note, for example, purportedly sent from Jeffrey Epstein to Larry Nassar, the former Women's National Gymnastics Team coach who also abused young girls, mentioned Trump or the fact that it was revealed Trump Rode with Epstein on his jet, along with a girl whose name was redacted. It even became clear the DOJ was trying to turn the attention away from Trump and onto Bill Clinton by including a raft of photos of him in the first tranche that was released with Trump coming out and pretending to like, play good cop by saying that he doesn't like the photos of Bill Clinton. And then of course, letting his own guilty conscience speak by saying you probably have pictures being exposed of other people that innocently met Jeffrey Epstein. Again, I wonder who he might be referring to. The problem for Trump though, is that he's obviously not winning any Democrats over with his protests and now he's alienating Republicans because the COVID up is so obvious. Even his sycophants don't know how to defend him. And frankly, they're not defending him. We've seen a pretty shocking number of prominent right wingers abandon Trump or call him out over this issue. And that was before he suddenly demanded that the DOJ just refused to comply with the law that he himself signed merely because it was becoming apparent that his own associations with a notorious pedophile were hurting him politically. Surprise. Surpr. And that pain isn't just manifesting itself with his approval ratings, which I should note are at the lowest point of his presidency, about 36%. They're also manifesting in how much power he's able to wield over his fellow Republicans, which, you know, used to be total control. For the first time. Republicans in Indiana rebuked him when he tried to pressure them into redrawing their state's maps from 7:2 to 9 to nothing. More Republicans voted against that effort than voted for it. We're seeing a record number of discharge petitions pass where Democrats are able to force votes on the House floor by going around Mike Johnson if they can get 218 signatures. And that includes one just last week, which forced a vote on the ACA subsidy extension that passed, which means it comes up for a full vote first week of January. And that was despite Trump's best efforts to kill those subsidies and to kill Obamacare. In other words, he's clearly losing some of his power and is looking more and more like a lame duck. And frankly, it comes at a good time for Democrats because what's become clear on the left is, is that the same tired, status quo politics that Democrats have relied on for decades isn't going to work anymore. And we're seeing candidates who are younger, who are more dynamic, more tech savvy, unapologetically progressive. And most importantly, recognize the need to fight back against the Republican Party that has run roughshod over the left for my entire lifetime. Those two things together, a weaker GOP and a stronger Democratic Party, give me some hope for 2026 and beyond. Next up are my interviews with Ro Khanna, Robert Garcia and Norm Eisen. But first, just want to say Happy Holidays, Happy New Year to everybody who tuned in this year. Thank you so much for staying engaged and involved and thanks for giving me and this show a little bit of your time each week. Bit of an announcement here. I'm going to be doing two shows per week starting in January of 2026, so check out the midweek show in the same feed. And finally, a big thank you to my producer Sam on today's episode because it is our 300th episode. He's been here since day one and this is just in time to wrap up 2025. Okay, onto the interviews. No lies Brought to you by Everyday Dose the holidays are kind of weird because I know that we're supposed to relax, but also they're definitely not relaxing. So at this point I've just kind of embraced the chaos of it all. But part of being constantly on the go is making sure that I have the energy to keep going. 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Everyday Dose is also available at your local target. I'm joined now by the author of the Epstein Transparency Act, Congressman Ro Khanna. Congressman, thanks for joining me.
- [06:31]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [06:33]
A
So first and foremost, your reaction to the fact that While today was supposed to be the deadline for the full release of the Epstein files, what we got instead, some partial release. And even the files that were released were heavily, heavily redacted.
- [06:46]
B
Disappointment. It's sadness. You know, to me this is not a game. It's not about politics. It's about survivors that I've come to know and I had talked to them over the past few weeks. They were so looking forward to this day of finally having being seen, having some closure. And in the morning when we heard the deputy Attorney general say there are going to be hundreds of thousands of documents, Thomas Massie and I said, well look, it's probably not a full release, but at least there's some effort at compliance. But then when we saw those documents, we were just shocked. Documents totally redacted. None of the key things actually released. The draft indictment, the prosecution memo, those documents that would show who were the other rich and powerful men who abused these young girls or covered it up. None of the files on the computers of Epstein released that would actually implicate the other people. And you know, the country's asking, why are you protecting these folks? What are you hiding? Massie and I are ready. We're drafting articles of impeachment as we speak about Pam Bondi and Blanchard. We're not going to drop them right away. They're saying they're going to keep producing things until the end of the year, but we're ready to use them. And we're talking to survivors about showing up against again at the Capitol. We're going to continue the fight.
- [08:11]
A
Well, that's some news that you are drafting articles of impeachment for Pam Bondi. And so what is the threshold for actually introducing those articles? What does Pam Bondi have to do or not do for those articles to actually be introduced into the House?
- [08:26]
B
She needs to comply at least with the spirit of the law. Look, the letter of the law they've obviously violated. They had to get all the unclassified documents out today. They haven't. But to be redacting the entire grand jury when a federal judge has said release them. To not have the names of other government officials and business leaders who are implicated be part of the public release, to not release the draft indictment and prosecution memo which get to the heart of why there was injustice in this case and why there was a cover up. They are not trying to be transparent. They are protecting someone. They are protecting rich and influential people who were friends with the president or know the president or have some hold on our government. You know what it's not even about Trump. Okay? There were not many mentions of Trump. They're protecting other people here. There are dozens of people who were involved in this cover up and who abused these girls. Think about it. 1200 victims. You don't have one person have 1200 victims. Of that 1200 number is from the DOJ. So why are these people being protected? That's what, that's what the country's asking.
- [09:35]
A
And that's exactly the part I want to dig into. There was a note from Fox Digital and I'm going to put that up on the screen. It says the Justice Department redacted the names and identifiers of the victims. Fox News Digital has learned that the same redaction standards were applied to politically exposed individuals and government officials. Now I'm also going to put on this screen the actual text of the Epstein Transparency act itself, which says that no record shall be withheld, delayed or redacted on the basis of embarrassment, reputational harm or political sensitivity, including to any government official, public figure or foreign dignitary. And so how can they make up this brand new standard that already unto itself violates the spirit of this thing, but also violates the direct letter of this law?
- [10:20]
B
Well, that was the whole purpose of the law, right? I mean, the doj, the Department of Justice was not releasing this information because they did not want to cause embarrassment to powerful people. And their rationale was, well, we don't release things if we don't charge people. That was their whole rationale. And that's why it took a literal act of Congress to say, no, we want you to release these things even if it's going to cause embarrassment to people who were in charge. Because justice wasn't done, because there was never a real prosecution of these individuals. And three federal judges looked at the act and said, yeah, you know what? We didn't order the release before because of reputational harm and the idea that you don't release things with people who are not charged. But Congress now has spoken, so we're going to reverse ourselves and we're going to mandate that you release this. At that point I thought, okay, certainly they're going to release it with three federal judges saying that, and some of it they did release, but they redacted the whole thing and they covered up the names. So this can only lead one to believe that they want to distract with pictures of Bill Clinton. Everyone knows Bill Clinton doesn't have good judgment. I mean, we didn't need the Epstein release to know that they want to distract with that. And they don't want any of the other rich and powerful men who are part of this cover up to be exposed. And why does it matter? People say, well, he was dead years ago. Well, it matters because people are sick of two tiers of justice in this country. They're sick of a elite that gets away with even things like raping young girls or watching young girls be raped and not saying anything. They are sick of elite impunity. And they think that there's something rotten about these interests that have a hold on our government and they want it exposed. And that's why this story is not going away.
- [12:01]
A
And the ultimate irony of all of that is that is exactly the message that the Trump administration ran on. That is what Cash Patel built his brand on. That's what Dan Bongino built his brand on. That's what we heard from Pam Bondi and Alina Haba and all of these Trump acolytes. J.D. vance himself said, we have to release these files for that exact reason. And now not only are they doing the thing that they promised, but they're perpetuating the exact criminal behavior that they once condemned. There's a feeling of helplessness because when you have a violation of this, of this law, the people who would in theory be there to enforce the law are the very people that are violating the law in the first place. And so, and so what recourse is there when you've got the DOJ again, whose job it is to enforce the law? That's actually the one violating it. That's, that's the one deciding to create new standards by fiat, where they say, okay, not only are we gonna not release the full files as was required by this law, but we're also gonna create this new standard where if you're involved in government, even though this was a government aligned pedophile ring, if you're involved in government, we've now given ourselves license to just redact your name from this thing. What recourse is there when the police are the one who are crooked?
- [13:13]
B
Well, the first recourse is public opinion. That is what moved the bill in the first place. The reality is that Donald Trump thought he would get away with this. He didn't expect that his MAGA base would literally unravel. This is what unraveled Trump. This is why you have 50 discharge petitions. This is what split his base. And the reason it happened is because of these survivors. They came to the Capitol two times and people said, this is outrageous and they're going to Come again? So this idea that justice thinks, okay, this is the end of it, they're just wrong. Watch the outrage when survivors are back and saying that they violated the law and they have not complied. More broadly, people are subjecting themselves to the risk of prosecution. They are obstructing justice. And this is not just about these three remaining years. A new administration could prosecute these individuals. The statute of limitations would not have run out. And I'm one of those. These people. I don't know about you, Brian. My view is, yes, I want healing and reconciliation after Trump's gone, but I want accountability, too, right? I'm going to have reconciliation without accountability. And if you violated the Epstein Transparency act, if you bombed innocent people off the coasts of the Caribbean, if you ripped people off out of their families as ice, there is going to be criminal accountability, and that is in a new administration. And then Massey and I were talking about articles of impeachment and inherent contempt. The difference here is you've got Republicans, MAGA Republicans who may go for this. In fact, someone had shared my video on the maga, prominent MAGA influencer saying Roe impeach, impeach Bondi, un Massey should impeach Bondi. So this is not some Democratic issue. I mean, think about if you've got 5, 10, 15 Republicans actually leading the call for an impeachment, it's worth asking.
- [15:09]
A
Here because I think you're absolutely right. This idea that, that, you know, taking the Merrick Garland approach of, okay, let's just sing Kumbaya now and we'll just, you know, achieve, achieve peace after that. You need some deterrent effect. People don't just change overnight if there's, if there's no reason not to do so. I mean, we saw the extent to which, you know, the people that were involved in January 6th were not held accountable for their actions and began immediately engaging in the same type of behavior because they were given that free pass by Trump. But it's worth asking here, to what degree do you have some concern that even though Trump can plainly see that these people are engaged in criminal activity by violating this law, that he can just hand out pardons and just, you know, basically absolve everybody of their wrongdoing here? Is there any other avenue. Can you talk about civil proceedings or just some other way to counteract what may be the inevitable, you know, get out of jail free card handed out by Trump?
- [16:07]
B
This is why I'm for a constitutional amendment to abolish the pardon power. I believe it's been most abused by Trump, but it's been abused by too many presidents. Yeah, but the reality is that we can have groups, including survivors, sue the federal government for release. Congress can support that, and we're prepared to do that. They certainly have standing under the law to bring those suits. And if you're a person at justice, and you're a lawyer, you're an honorable lawyer, many of the career folks are, or you're a political appointee, not a Trump acolyte, but you're a Republican, you're serving in the justice administration. I mean, that's an awful risk to take to. To be having your whole career rest on the whims of whether Donald Trump will pardon you. And even if he does pardon you, it doesn't strike me as that's a great way to build a legal future. To be the person at the Justice Department who skirted the law because they didn't want justice for survivors to protect rich and powerful men and have a Trump pardon at the end of their name. I don't think that that is the way to build your legal reputation. So, look, this has been a disappointing day, Brian. I've got to be honest with you, because this meant so much, not just to those Epstein survivors, but the survivors around the country. They finally felt heard, seen by Congress, and this is a slap in their face. But we've been fighting this for six months. We've been building public support. We defeated the president. We passed a law that no one thought we could. So I would just say don't underestimate Massey or my resolve. Don't underestimate the resolve of these survivors. This fight will continue until those files are released and justice is done.
- [17:47]
A
Well, look, I just want to take a moment here to say. To say thank you for the hard work that you and Thomas Massie have been doing, doing on this issue. I know that there are a million reasons not to have done it, especially because, you know, I think it's. It's becoming more commonplace that you'll even have Republicans rebuke the president. We saw that in Indiana. We saw that just a few days ago with this latest discharge petition in the House getting 218 signatures. But. But your discharge petition in the House was the first instance of. Of even Republicans defying this president. And that wouldn't have happened without, you know, this whole campaign that you drove forward here, you know, against a president who had, at that point, had basically total control. So I think you deserve a lot of credit. I know that, you know, my audience is appreciative of it. And it's important, too, to get some accountability for the survivors here who I know that you've been in close contact with. So, again, thank you for all the work that you've been doing. And I know this isn't the last we're gonna see of this whole saga, but appreciate your leadership on all of this.
- [18:49]
B
Thank you, Brian. Thank you for your voice. And you're right, the presidency is unraveling. And that's because of the courage people like you have shown Republicans are showing. Finally, people are seeing the emperor has no clothes. You can stand up to this president and you can stand up for American values.
- [19:06]
A
Ro Khanna, thanks so much for your time.
- [19:07]
B
Thank you.
- [19:11]
A
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- [20:30]
B
Sure thing.
- [20:31]
A
So we've watched as the Trump administration yet again has failed to meet the deadline that was imposed by the law that Trump himself signed to release these files on time. You've spoken about legal action against this administration. What does that entail and how is that process looking?
- [20:47]
C
Yeah, We've actually been anticipating this action for many weeks now. I mean, it's been clear that they've been trying to lead a cover up at the Trump administration at the DOJ now for months. And I think, look, we weren't surprised. We anticipated that they were either going to do a partial release or not meet the actual law. And so we've been talking with Congressman Raskin, as you know, one of the best constitutional lawyers in the country, and Ro Khanna and others about legal approach. And that is all been worked on over the last few weeks. What you're going to see in the next few days is some action likely led by Tom Massie, which is really important for us that a Republican hopefully leads this effort. But you're going to see efforts to hold Pam Bondi accountable in the Congress. And then you're also going to see legal recourse that will be coming to the courts. And so all of that is moving its way through. And every day that the DOJ doesn't release the full files makes our case even more stronger. And so that is all happening. And on the Senate side, you can also see similar actions being taken. So the American public can now see for themselves that they were never going to release the full files. They're overly redacting materials. They're posting stuff about Trump, then removing it immediately after we call it out. This is a White House cover up. And so there has to be a legal recourse here.
- [22:02]
A
In terms of the second plank of what you were talking about, if the Justice Department is the entity that would normally be there to enforce the laws, how do you basically hold a rogue Justice Department accountable when there's nobody above them to enforce the laws against them?
- [22:21]
C
So I think one is going to the court. The courts have on numerous occasions now really pushed the administration and forced them to take action. Now, in some cases, the DOJ has defied the courts, but in a lot of instances, the DOJ has actually had to comply with, with what the courts have said. And so we have to use the courts as best we can. Then we've got to use public pressure, which has been happening both in the Congress and outside the Congress. That's a very important piece of this. And then is holding actual members of the DOJ in contempt. I mean, the reality is, is there can be action taken against Pam Bondi directly, against other people in the FBI and DOJ leadership directly. All these folks need to understand that we're going to push hard to hold them accountable, even in the minority. But you better Believe that once we get to the majority and we have subpoena power and the power to actually have the majority to actually push not just laws, but accountability in the right way, they better do the right thing now. Because if they don't do the right thing now, that accountability will lock in place once we take the majority.
- [23:26]
A
As it relates to holding Pam Bondi or members of the FBI or DOJ accountable, isn't there always looming above all of this the prospect of a Trump pardon? And is there some way to circumvent that? Like, for example, holding folks accountable civilly but not necessarily criminally? Right.
- [23:43]
C
I think we are looking at every single option on the table right now as it relates to legal strategy. We have some of the best lawyers, not just that are in Congress that work for, for us, but outside lawyers and attorneys that are looking at every single possibility and seeing how the DOJ tries to skirt the line, get around these issues. The Trump pardons are a real thing. We now know that Trump is willing, of course, to pardon anyone, criminals, January Sixers, folks that have essentially caused massive harm to the American public, stolen from the American public. So he'll pardon just about anybody we know, including, I'm sure, his own administration, which is involved right now in massive corruption. So that is a part of the consideration. And what we're doing also right now is working with the survivors. The survivors have enormous power in what they're doing. They are in themselves pushing the doj. They came out with a very powerful letter to the DOJ here in just the last day. And so that's all going to continue. We need to get all the files. We got to continue to push, we got to take legal action, and then we've got to hold those DOJ officials accountable.
- [24:46]
A
Looking at this from a 30,000 foot view, you know, it would seem, it would seem so outside the realm of, of, of logic that Donald Trump would want to voluntarily engage in all of this. Like this guy knows media, this guy knows entertainment. He understands narrative. If nothing else, that is the part of all of this that he understands. And so he understands the damage that it's doing by subjecting himself to this narrative on a daily basis. This drip, drip, drip of more files coming out, whether it's from the Oversight committee, whether it's from the Epstein estate, or whether it's some files coming out from, you know, from the DOJ itself. But it would, it doesn't make sense on the outside that Donald Trump would voluntarily engage in all of this unless what was actually in the files was Worse. Otherwise why would you want the whole country to assume the worst? Unless what you're actually hiding, what you're actually covering up is indeed as bad as everybody would think it was. So can you just talk on, on that for a moment? This idea that what may be in the files that he's trying so hard to hide, that he's engaged in this 11 month law cover up might actually be worse than, than, than, you know, just, just subjecting himself to the daily barrage of this news cycle.
- [25:59]
C
Look, I think there's no first, no question that, that Trump and the DOJ have completely botched this release. I mean they're regardless of the right thing that they should be doing politically. They're damaging themselves. Their MAGA base is turning on them. I'm talking to Republicans all over here in my back, in my back door, here in my district, here, back home in California and folks think this is bizarre. If you have nothing to hide, then release all the files. What the issue right now is the COVID up. They're clearly involved in illegal activity as it relates to this moment. When they're not releasing the files, they continue to cover things up. We don't know exactly everything that's in the files. We suspect some of the things that could be in there. And what we're trying to get to is just the truth. All we want is justice for the survivors and we don't care who the powerful men are that cause harm. What Donald Trump should want is he should join us in every going after every single powerful man that hurt, trafficked, abused women. That is the goal here, is we want truth and transparency for the survivors and we're going to continue to fight till we get it.
- [27:06]
A
Trump's deputy Attorney general and somebody who I should also add was his former personal criminal defense attorney, Todd Blanche was on Face the Nation or some Sunday show this weekend and was asked point blank why Ghislaine Maxwell was moved to a different prison, basically Club Fed, a low security prison in Texas from where she was in Florida. And he basically answered that, that, that she had to be moved. They're not going to release any information, but she had to be removed for her own safety. Do you buy that story?
- [27:36]
C
Insane. This is, this is crazy what's happening with Ghislaine Maxwell. And so Donald Trump's former personal lawyer has this meeting with her, as we know, at secretive meeting that we know nothing about and then soon after that she gets moved to another facility and just, just, just what? This interview just happened a day or two ago and now in this interview, he finally says that somehow she is moved and he had nothing really to do with it, that it was for her own security. So for her own security she's being moved to a less secure facility and that it was a Bureau of Prisons that made the decision and that Susie Wiles, and nobody at the White House has any idea what's going on when she is one of the most high profile felons in the custody of the government. Give me a break. We're not idiots and the American public is not stupid. They clearly, clearly there's a motive here. And what we don't understand is Ghislaine Maxwell today, a monstrous person, human, who's done horrible harm and an abuser herself, is now having, hanging out with puppies and walking around a less secure facility and having secret meetings with we don't know anything about. We're not idiots. There is a cover up happening. Why was Ghislaine Maxwell moved? What was she told? Was she promised anything? These are the questions that we have. And another thing, James Comer promised us that we would get Ghislaine Maxwell to testify in front of the Oversight Committee. Now that she's refusing to do so, he seems to like forgotten about that request. There's. Where's the pressure from the Republicans to get Ghislaine Maxwell in for a deposition? He wants everyone else in but her, when we know she knows more about this than anybody else.
- [29:13]
A
Would it be up to James Comer then to be able to bring in Todd Blanche to get some answers in terms of what actually happened with Glenn Maxwell? I'm presuming the only way there's going to be any answers is if he's asked these questions, you know, under oath in front of Congress. But I also presume that unless James Comer and the Republicans on that committee actually move forward to subpoenaing him, then it's not going to happen.
- [29:36]
C
That's exactly right. I mean, we are, you know, we don't have the majority, right? So we don't have the power of subpoena unless we somehow force the Republicans to join us. And we've done that a few times. But we can't get Todd Blanche in front of us, we can't force Pam Bondi in front of us unless we get the Republican majority to actually move with us. And so James Comer, if he really wants transparency, we should be demanding answers from Todd Blanche, the head of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Ghislaine Maxwell should be in. We should be asking questions of Pam Bondi the former FBI directors, we wanted to have some of the former FBI directors come in and they, James Comer dismissed it. I mean, he just, you know, he doesn't think it's important. And so that, that work's got to continue. And when, when we win that majority, the Oversight Committee on day one is going to get answers and get very aggressive on bringing these folks in.
- [30:26]
A
And that's exactly the point that I wanted to discuss. What, what can you commit to in the event that Democrats are able to win the majority and you become chairman of the House Oversight Committee?
- [30:36]
C
Well, I can tell you on the Epstein, on the Epstein investigation, what all, all of the folks that we need to talk to, former members at the FBI, rank and file folks that are, that are critical, certainly most importantly, Pam Bondi, Cash Patel folks have been involved in putting the files together, the banks, all of the folks involved. On day one, we'll put out a substantial list and a subpoena, the appropriate people and institutions so that we get all the answers and that we can bring justice for the survivors. That'll happen day one.
- [31:06]
A
Last question here. To what extent do you think that Dan Bongino's departure from the FBI has something to do with the botched response to the release of these Epstein files?
- [31:14]
C
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, Dan Bongino is someone that spent a lot of time podcasting and talking about, as you know, releasing the files and transparency and he sees probably this botched response. All those influencers invited to the White House when they released the files a few, a few months ago. It's a joke. This administration is involved in a cover up. It's time to bring justice in.
- [31:38]
A
The truth.
- [31:39]
C
We just want the truth. All we want. And Republicans keep saying, oh, you know, aren't you nervous that all these Democrats. I said, I've said before, we could care less.
- [31:47]
A
They keep putting Bill Clinton as if our red line is Bill Clinton. It's like nobody cares about Bill Clinton. Anybody in the files, left, right or center, if they've done something wrong, they should be held accountable to the fullest.
- [31:58]
C
Extent of the law, 100%. Anyone that's in the files, anyone that knows anything about Jeffrey Epstein or his activities, we want to talk to believe it there.
- [32:07]
A
Congressman, thanks for staying on top of this and for fighting so hard.
- [32:10]
C
Thank you.
- [32:14]
A
No lies brought to you by Shopify. You know when it's midnight and you're lying in bed scrolling through this new website that you found, hitting the add to cart button on the item that you've been looking for. After 15 minutes, you decide that you've done enough damage to your wallet and you decide to finally check out. You remember that your wallet or credit card is in the living room and you don't want to get out of bed to get it. Just as you're getting ready to abandon your cart, that's when you see it. That purple shop button. That shop button that has all of your payment and shipping information saved, saving you time while you stay warm in your bed. That's Shopify. And there's a reason that so many businesses sell with it. Because Shopify makes everything easier from checking out to creating your own storefront. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like my website briantylercohen.com to brands just getting started. Shopify gives you that leg up from day one with high hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates to express your brand style. Tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. Spread your brand's word with built in marketing and email tools to find and keep new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see fewer carts getting abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling at shopify.com BTC shopify.com BTC shopify dot com BTC I'm joined now by the co founder of Democracy Defenders Action, Norm Eisen. Norm, thanks for joining me, Brian.
- [33:46]
D
Thanks for having me.
- [33:47]
A
So Norm, we all watched as Donald Trump engaged in yet more illegal activity by renaming the Kennedy center, despite the fact that the statute prevents Donald Trump from being able to vote himself into, you know, onto the sign at the Kennedy Center. You've taken action against him. Can you explain what just happened?
- [34:04]
D
We at Democracy Defenders Action have just sued Donald Trump and the cronies that he's put on the board of the Kennedy center, plus the Kennedy center itself to reverse this illegal action through federal law is very clear. The Kennedy center is supposed to be named for John F. Kennedy as a memorial to that president who was tragically assassinated. And you can't have other memorials or material changes to that, including changing the signs. And Brian, we represent one of the trustees of the Kennedy center board, Congresswoman Joyce Beatty. And the congresswoman was at the meeting and she tried to speak and they muted her. They would not let her object to this. The process was a sham. It's illegal, and it matters. It's actually a very important case for.
- [35:19]
A
The rule of law. Norm, can you talk about why you're going to win this case, specifically as it relates to what the board did versus what the statute actually says?
- [35:28]
D
The statute is very specific, Brian, that this memorial is to be known as the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts. And it's no small thing for Donald Trump, yet again, to disregard the will of Congress, to disregard the Constitution, which says that those statutes, the expression of Congress will, must be listened to, and to put his own name on there. It feels very similar to the destruction of the East Wing of the White House. It's an act of desecration. It's an act of self aggrandizement, and it's wrong. That's why the congresswoman came to us at Democracy Defenders Action, and we also had the Washington Litigation Group. We said we were willing to do it, and she's entrusted us with pushing back on this wrongful attack on the rule of law. Brian, as is so often the case, like all of your viewers, I felt so angry.
- [36:47]
A
Yeah.
- [36:47]
D
That when this happened. But unlike all of your viewers, I have over 237 legal cases and matters against the Trump administration, including many of the big wins, landmark wins over the past year that have stopped him. So the good friends at the Washington Litigation Group, my colleagues and I at Democracy Defenders Action, we called the congresswoman, we said, reporting for duty, and she accepted that offer. And now here we are.
- [37:23]
A
How confident are you that when you win this case, he's actually going to comply? And the reason that I asked that is because he obviously knew that this move unto itself from the very beginning was illegal. He knew that the board doesn't have the ability to rename the Kennedy center because it's written in statute that it would be named the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts, that the board wasn't granted the right or the authority to be able to change the name. And so he did it anyway. He was perfectly content to flout the law. Then why do you have confidence that even when he loses this case, that he'll abide by the law?
- [37:56]
D
Because we have made him follow the law again and again and again in our cases, even when he doesn't want to. When he said he was going to change birthright citizenship, he put out an executive order that some babies born here are citizens and some are not. No, that's not what the Constitution says. He tried to wriggle away. We went to court. He went to the Supreme Court. We went, we got, went and got a second order to comply with the Supreme Court, and he's been complying with it. So same thing. He tried to seize control of our elections. We stopped him there. Here's how I know. Because we sued on his phony US Attorneys. We started with Alina Haba in New Jersey and the court knocked her out. She tried to keep going, but eventually she was forced to leave. That same theory was used to dismiss the James and Comey cases. We filed a brief there supporting their lawyers. That was successful. So time and time again, when he tried to close down the Voice of America, we went to court again and again to stop him from evading following those orders. We've had many cases like that. In every case, we finally are able to get compliance. We're going to do the same thing here, but I am planning on him cheating if we secure that order. So we've built that into the plan.
- [39:32]
A
What did it say to you that he would engage in such egregiously unlawful behavior? Like, clearly, he doesn't have the ability to do this. And does it not feel very Third World esque to not only be able to say, oh, yeah, we have the authority as the board of the Kennedy center to change the name, which they don't, but then to go so far as to say we got unanimous support while they were muting people that were trying to oppose this move and then coming out and offering a very like Vladimir Putin esque, oh, we got 100% offering up this illegal compliance on this illegal edict that we can change the name to Honor me, dear Leader Donald Trump.
- [40:14]
D
Well, I think Donald Trump still has not learned his lesson litigating over the Epstein files and were the first to file FOIA requests, for example, when the shameful deal was cut with Ghislaine Maxwell. Look at the mess that those Epstein files constitute. We're prepared to go back to court to force their turnover. If the administration continues to defy the Epstein transparency system statute, they never learn their lesson.
- [40:51]
A
This.
- [40:52]
D
Every American knows about President Kennedy. Every American has respect for his legacy. And to desecrate that legacy is going to be extremely unpopular. Maybe they thought nobody would figure out a way to sue him to litigate this or that. Nobody would be brave enough. The congresswoman is brave enough. And we have brought our lawsuit to enforce the statutes that very clearly say this building cannot be called the Donald Trump and the John F Kennedy Performing Arts Center.
- [41:30]
A
So I'm sure there were a lot of people looking to sue as the result of this because it's so clearly illegal on its face. Why did you decide that this case was the best one in terms of standing to be able to, to win?
- [41:42]
D
Well, the Congress said that the Kennedy center is to be protected, looked out for, administered by its trustees. This case is by one of those congressional trustees. Congress has given the trustees the power.
- [42:09]
A
Can I ask real quick, can I interject here? How did she remain on the board of trustees after Trump kind of, you know, just basically put all of his lackeys and sycophants and mouthpieces into those positions?
- [42:21]
D
Even Trump is not so brazen as to disregard the statute which says these members of Congress are ex officio trustees. And so he did not attempt to remove the congresswoman. Just the same, she's a woman who refuses to be silenced. She won't be shut up. They thought they did that by muting her in the board meeting. Now she is being heard loud and clear with this lawsuit.
- [43:01]
A
How quickly do you expect this to move through the court system?
- [43:05]
D
We've now got the thing on file. And you know, Brian, because you and I have talked about litigation a lot this year. We're, we're not shy about moving at a brisk pace. Let's, let's see who, which judge gets assigned here. We'll look at their standing order. Perhaps the individuals that we have filed suit against will think better of what they've done. I tend to doubt that. And then we'll figure out an appropriate schedule to move this forward. These are issues of first impression. No president has ever thought to put their name on the Kennedy center before. What's next? The Donald Trump and Lincoln Memorial?
- [43:55]
A
I mean, Donald Trump, you say that as a joke. You say all these things.
- [43:59]
D
Washington Monument.
- [44:01]
A
You say all of this tongue in cheek, but you say all of this tongue in cheek, but I would not in a million years put it, put it, put it in front of him to do exactly that. Last question here. What will it mean to you to watch workers get up on those ladders and use crowbars to pry the letters the Donald J. Trump and off of the Kennedy Center.
- [44:26]
D
It will mean that has so, as has so often been the case in the democracy movement and coalitions, litigation, that the rule of law is being upheld again, that the Constitution and the statutes enacted under it are being protected by the courts, and that authoritarianism has been rebuffed as the courts have done in hundreds of other cases. Brian, We've never seen anything like Donald Trump's illegality, but we've also never seen anything like the democracy movement's pushback. And of course, you, your viewers, your show, independent media, such an important part of that. Look, we're just on the heels of this shameful 60 minute scandal where they killed a perfectly legitimate story. That's why we need you and the rest of independent media and it's why I'm always quick to let you know when we have a new legal action.
- [45:41]
A
Norm, for those who are looking to learn more about all of the lawsuits that you've brought against Donald Trump and his administration and the overreach of this federal government, where can they go?
- [45:49]
D
Democracy defendersaction.org, you can read all about our work, our wonderful partners who do these cases with us and can support our work there. We welcome everybody to check out Democracy Defenders Action. And Brian, thanks for having me back.
- [46:11]
A
Of course, I'm going to put that link right here on the screen and also in the post description if anybody wants to check it out. Norm, as always, thanks for your time and thanks for even during the holidays, always finding time to fight against the overreach by this White House.
- [46:23]
D
Happy holidays to you and to all your viewers and I'll see you very soon.
- [46:30]
A
Thanks again to Ro Khanna, Robert Garcia and Norm Eisen. Happy New Year, everybody. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graeber, music by Wellesley and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me Ryan Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.