B (5:37)

I feel like I'm in a dream because I love you so much and also just listening to that because I have your book and I also have it on tape. So I have listened to your voice for such a long time. I just can't believe that I'm talking to you. It makes me emotional because you're so wonderful.

A (6:01)

Oh, hon. Okay, well, I feel that way about you. And now I get to talk to you. Not just I feel it will. The fact that I will. Super fan. This entire conversation. I do apologize. Since it is the Christmas season, I was wondering if we could start backwards in your life from now. Backwards. And if we could start with Hallmark Christmas. Do you mind?

B (6:23)

I. I think there's no better place to start than Hallmark Christmas.

A (6:26)

They're kind of like a. A genre like. So if you see one, you begin to understand the rules. So I wondered if we could play a quick game and give people a sense of what we're talking about.

B (6:37)

Okay. Perfect. Okay.

A (6:38)

Super. Okay, so for this game, I'm going to ask you about a couple movies that you are not starring in because obviously you know those other ones inside out and that would be cheating.

B (6:46)

Okay.

A (6:47)

Every Christmas movie leading lady has a dream. So for instance, in the movie I saw last night, Christmas wishes and mistletoe kisses. Abby is a 30 something single mom who works at an old folks home called Shady Grove where she loves the kindly and wise cracking residents. But Nikki, her real dream is to be. What does she want to be? A, an aspiring real estate agent, B, an aspiring Christmas tree selector for a major television network. These are all true professions in Christmas Hallmark movies. C, would you like to be an aspiring seasonal hat shop owner? D, an aspiring Christmas interior decorator Or E, an aspiring Christmas pageant director? Wow.

B (7:30)

Can I say all of the above?

A (7:33)

Those have all been plot points.

B (7:38)

Christmas pageant director.

A (7:40)

Unfortunately, her impossible dream is to be an interior decorator. Wow. That.

B (7:46)

By the way, the Christmas tree director for a network.

A (7:51)

She needs to go in that one to rural Maine to select the perfect Christmas tree. Oh, that's, That's. I think her nickname is Miss Christmas and she has to go find the perfect tree and she knows that tree will speak to the nation.

B (8:03)

I'm so upset that I didn't get to do that. I think I'm gonna call Hallmark and say next time.

A (8:11)

Actually, I think that one was starring. I think that might have been the Dean Cain one. I think I might be right about it.

B (8:17)

Oh, I love it. I love it. I love a good Dean Cain.

A (8:20)

There's never enough Dean Cain. This one. In Christmas Wishes and Mistletoe Kisses, there's always a gala or Christmas festival. And this one she needs to deck the halls of a nearby undecorated mansion owned by a handsome millionaire who may or may not have lost the Christmas.

B (8:38)

Spirit and played by Dean Cain.

A (8:41)

This one was played by the Legally Blonde guy whose name I forget.

B (8:46)

Oh, yes. But it should be played by Dean Cain.

A (8:49)

Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. Also, these movies are very romantic, so I thought maybe we could name things that people may not understand are both Christmassy and very, very romantic. Things like finding Christmas ornaments in an attic. Romantic.

B (9:05)

Romantic. Especially if it has a story attached to it.

A (9:09)

You're right. There's always a story associated with, like, the ornament one about, like, one of those, like, Shaky Shake where the snow comes down. Like snow globes.

B (9:20)

Yes, the snow globes that I've had one with a snow globe. It was called from Christmas Reunited. And so this was an idea I'd taken to Hallmark because I wanted to tell the story. You know, there's a lot of people that are also divorced. And so I wanted to storyline of a mother and father who had gone through a divorce, a family who had gone through that, and they were coming together to spend one last Christmas together. I really had to fight for this story. But there was a snow globe involved in it. And in the snow globe, like, an absolute replica of the house of my grandmother's house inside of it that I was given as a gift for my love interest in the movie. But by the way, trying to get the snow globe made was an absolute nightmare snow globe. And we were supposed to shoot the scene that day and props comes up to give it to me, and I'm like, this looks nothing like the house. It didn't even have a house in it. We couldn't even shoot it. And so then we ended up having to shoot the insert of the snow globe on the last day of production because we finally got the right snow globe. So, yeah, there's a lot of props involved.

A (10:31)

There's always, like, a lot of. Maybe kind of accidental violence around a Christmas tree. Like. Like, you. You can fall off one or you can be injured by one. Like, you've. You're a whole. You had amnesia, I think, falling off a Christmas tree.

B (10:45)

I did. So we. We. We. This was one of my favorite movies I've actually done for Hallmark. I have a Christmas tree, and I wake up in essentially this world that I thought I wanted. I was a very successful business person. I had clothes, I had the money. I was power. I had the hair. And. And I. What I realized along the way is I didn't. I didn't want that life. I wanted my life. And I loved the message of that movie so much. I think we all think that we want what we don't have. And just to be able to reflect back on. On the incredible things that we do have in our life. I remember CR. Hard in the all is lost moment of that movie. And in Hallmark, they don't like you to cry too much.

A (11:35)

Oh, sweetie. Yeah.

B (11:38)

And I am a big crier. Like, I don't. If you know me, you know, like, I will cry anywhere. I will cry at the dry. I will cry everywhere. And I ugly cry like Claire Danes in Homeland. So it's like the moment where, you know, I can't take my wish back. And my husband moved on with another woman. And I'm standing outside amongst these Christmas trees in the snow and I have to say goodbye to him because I'm not going to back. And I am sobbing. And the director comes up and he's like, sweetie, you're doing great. It's beautiful. It's really beautiful work. I can't use any of. And I'm like, why. Why do I have mascara? He's like, it's the mascara. It's the. It's just the. All of it. Like, I just need one single solitude to just like, delicately run down one of your eyes, preferably the left one, because that's where camera is. And you know what, Kate? I did it. I did here. But I will never forget. He's like, I can't use any of this. And it was my first lesson in, like, learning how to cry on camera for homework while still making it authentic.

A (13:14)

Absolutely. Yeah. The real. But not too real. I totally get it.

B (13:20)

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

A (13:24)

It's funny, you know, it's. It's. It's. We all have to give up on, like, the version of the life we thought we'd have. And I. I think that's. And I think maybe people who might see your life on the outside might imagine, like, we might imagine that. That even the actors are living their own Hallmark plotline. But life is really never as neat as. As we hope it will be. And learning more about your story. We talk a lot about kind of befores and afters in these conversations. And I was so struck that your before and after is also a story of you being a mom. And that after the birth of your first child, you experience something that's so common, but it's not often talked about, which is postpartum depression.

B (14:12)

I was so unaware of postpartum depression that I didn't even realize I was in it till I got. I was. Became suicidal.

A (14:21)

Oh.

B (14:22)

I went back to work about four months after having Hudson. He had Colic, which actually, it just ended up being that my milk wasn't producing enough fat, so he was hungry all the time. It was, you know, the hormones, all of that. And I kept sinking deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into this thing. And then I went back to work. I was filming. I was on a show called Awkward at the time. And I thought, well, maybe this is just what it's like for a mom and for a working mom, and maybe this is just what it. What it feels like. Then I started slipping deeper into it. The mania started. The suicidal tendencies started. All of that started to happen. And I woke up to the fact that I was really not okay. And I was at my best friend's house, Jen Dee Dee, who I started what We Are with, and I just broke down in her kitchen crying. And I was like, I'm not okay. Something. Something's really wrong. And she held me, and she was like, I know. I've been so worried about you. And she's like, did you ever think that it might be postpartum depression? And honestly, until she said it, because nobody ever talks about it, I didn't even think about it. So here I was inside of this body and this brain that I felt like was betraying me so deeply, and I. And I was so angry because I just worked so hard. I just carried this baby for 10 months, worked so hard to push it out. And all I want to do is just feel the love and the glory and the. All I. All I want to do. And I couldn't touch upon it, and I just thought I was going to die. And that was the only way out. And luckily I got help. It's a person being from the south and being told every day, don't put your dirty laundry on the street. You know, don't tell the neighbors. You don't want anybody to see you sweat. Just, like, smile and act like everything is okay. It was like I took a baseball bat to this glass house of perfection that had built around me, and I was like, bam. No more. Because so many women are going through this, and I want them to know you are not alone and you are not crazy, and you should not carry the shame of this.

A (17:07)

Yeah. So much of what we end up facing in our lives are. Are. Are impossible to avoid, because they are. They are part of the cost of love. And. And you've talked, I mean, really beautifully about how parenthood has been. Has ushered you into this great and terrible and wonderful roller coaster of being both desperately in love and being helpless to actually Solve most of the pain that shapes our kids lives. If you don't mind taking me back to a story that I'm sure is really difficult. During what should have been a totally routine ultrasound with your second child, you discovered that your new little baby was already fighting for his life.

B (17:53)

I couldn't wait to see him. And the technician was taking a really long time in a certain area and I knew something was going wrong. And she exited the room and she said, okay, I'll bring the doctor in. And I literally just like stood up from the, from the, you know, the little bed, the hospital or the bed that you lay on, started pacing the room. And the doctor came in and told us that he didn't just have one congenital heart defect, he had three. And then we learned later that he ended up having a fourth one. He had what's called transposition of the great arteries where both of the main arteries that go into the two chambers of the heart, they were in the wrong chambers. His aorta was virtually closed and, and he had a hole in his heart, a vst. And the specific, unique ways in which his heart was messed up. Made the surgery and our, you know, journey with this even more difficult. We met with so many different doctors who didn't have a lot of, you know, hope for us until we ended up meeting with Dr. Von Starnes at Children's Hospital of L. A. And it's, it's beyond, it's beyond just, oh my gosh, this is going to be hard. It is. I don't like, wait, are you telling me that like, my, like my son may not live? Like there's a really, really large chance, a large percentage that he, like, even if he survives birth, there's really only like one or two surgeons in the whole entire world that could possibly do this surgery.

A (19:52)

And then you'd have to wait until, until you knew. I mean, that much anticipation must have been completely exhausting and surreal.

B (20:02)

It was so surreal. As you know, as, you know, like, it's so surreal, the unknown being inside of that. I've never, it's. I've never been more present in my life. It's crazy how present you get because you actually cannot think even five minutes ahead. You can't think five minutes behind. No, you. Because it's so big and it's so heavy, the pain and the. What's at stake. It's so large that all you can do, it takes everything you have just to continue breathing in the place in which you are sitting.

A (20:50)

Yeah. And then to live there. I know I know the pandemic was like an introduction to that feeling for some people where they have to live on the edge of the cliff. But when you realize, like, the. The thing in front of you is impossible, I just. That must have been. I mean, you. You. You had so many difficult choices then to make so quickly. It sounds like there were sort of dangerous surgeries then that would have to be faced down existentially in. In rapid succession.

B (21:24)

And my mentor told me at the. Like, she told me in the beginning as she held my hand, and she said, this is going to be the hardest thing that you will ever do, but if you allow it to break you open, if you can pry yourself open and experience the magic and experience the miracles, because there will be many. Imagine who are you, who you will become on the other side of this. Imagine what your family is going to become, the people you will step into. That's what I just kept trying to do. Just like, when I would want to panic or run or hide, I would just pry myself and be like, all right, I'm gonna stand still inside of this thing.

A (22:20)

Yeah, that's right. And let my. And let my heart be able to handle the bandwidth of all that this is gonna bring in. Yeah, that's such a good prayer, too, because, like, the temptation is to be like, no, I'm going to reduce it to the level of reality that, like, I can manage. Because that first, for. For almost all of us, almost all the time, it's. It's just. It's so overwhelming that it's. It's hard to take in most of it. So I imagine just, like, staying there in that. In that, like, ongoing medical journey with him was really. Was like, a deliberate act of. Of constantly keeping yourself open.

B (23:00)

Oh, man. So much so. I mean, in each surgery, because there have been three of them in each surgery, there are. There's the moment before. There's the moment you say goodbye. There's the waiting, and then there's the return and the healing. Each moment of that, you have to just keep prying yourself open and breathing into your body and trusting that you are going to be able to be carried, that you are. And it helped me to stand next to his bedside when he was second surgery, when he was thrashing for two days in pain. It helped me to be able to, you know, sit in that waiting room for each one of us and each one of them and just keep breathing into my feet, because my heart. I had to find a place in my body.

A (24:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. It was Jason Green, it was. He's a beautiful author. He wrote this gorgeous book about the, the death of his daughter. His daughter had been killed by a brick that just like fell off a building when she was just a toddler. And, and he talked about like what he learned from fear and, and that so much of that was that he could learn that it was also part, partly a language of, of love. That it, it taught him what he, what he was scared that he couldn't live without, what his deepest hopes might be. Like what happens in the space between when your miracle comes true and when it doesn't and like what might still be there. So I, I think you are absolutely right because sometimes we get our man. Sometimes we, we are surprised by what turns out. Sometimes we're just. I love that you said carried. Sometimes we are just like carried the rest of the way by, by God's love and, and, and by each other.

B (25:11)

It's so true. He's so right. I call her my sister, wife, Lucy. But she was really someone who came into my life for three years to help me with Bennett, the first three years of Benny's life. She went through all three heart surgeries with us. And we would do this motto where like on the days where it was really hard, we would be like, everybody's okay, Everybody's fine. Everybody's okay. Everybody's fine. Everybody's okay. Everybody's fine. Everybody's okay. Everybody's fine. And we would just say it until we were either like laughing or crying or dancing or. And we would just say it around the house together, you know, and so now it's thing or it's everybody's okay, Everybody's fine. Everybody okay. Everyone. Everybody's okay.

A (25:52)

That's so good. It's like Little Engine that Could. And then eventually you're just like, okay, we're there, everything's okay, Everything's fine. I love that so much. I'm totally gonna do that. That's genius. That same year, your 62 year old dad was diagnosed with Pick's disease, a rare form of dementia. People normally imagine that dementia causes the people we love to be forgetful or simply to fade. But they don't just fade. You noticed huge changes. Within six months. He'd forgotten your kids names, he'd forgotten that he was your basketball coach. That must have been so painful.

B (26:37)

Yeah, it is. It's a very rare and aggressive form of dementia. And so what? So there, you know, there's four different types of dementia. There's regular Alzheimer's that most people Fall under that umbrella. There's vascular dementia, there's Lewy Body, and then there's. The fourth category is frontotemporal dementia, which are usually very rare and aggressive forms of dementia. And my dad falls into that category, and he was diagnosed with Pick's disease. And I found out about my dad and Bennett's condition. In the same week? Yeah, in the same week, I found out that I was definitely losing my dad, and there was nothing we could do about that. And I could potentially also lose my son. The thing I will have to say that, you know, I'm still trying to wrap my love around that I'm still trying to wrap my understanding and my heart around. And this is the thing that in your book, everything happens for a reason and other lies I've loved. I can't for the life of me, Kate, wrap my understanding around a scenario where, you know, because I have to be on the ground with my baby. And it's one surgery after another after another. And also after the first one, he came home on oxygen, and he was on oxygen for a very long time. And there was all of that that I couldn't get home to my dad. I couldn't actually get to him. And Ben's immune system was so compromised, he couldn't travel. We finally got to a place with Bennett where we have him not. Ugh, knock on wood and everything, please, Lord Jesus. To where his heart was stable. We got two good echocardiograms in a row.

A (28:35)

Oh, congrats. That's wonderful.

B (28:38)

I was planning, and this was at the top of the year. I said, okay, now that Bennett is in a good place, I am going to start going home every six weeks, and I'm going to spend a week in Georgia with my dad. And then Covid. Happens. Happens.

A (28:51)

Oh, sweetie.

B (28:53)

And I can't travel again.

A (28:58)

And that love is so messy because it's such a. It's such a messy illness. Like, it's not. It's not a clean grief.

B (29:07)

No, it is long. It is arduous. Even this morning, I was on the phone with the doctors, trying to talk to them what meds they're trying to get him on or get him off, and he's not sleeping, and all of this stuff is happening, and I am great at advocating now.

A (29:25)

Yeah.

B (29:26)

I know how to do this. I know how to do this. I know how to ask the questions. I know how to. You know, I know how to stand in that room. I know how to. Like, I know how to do this. And all I want to do is get to him, and I can't get to him. And so, yeah, I just. I'm trying. Yeah, I'm trying so hard just to go back to the place of, like, just open. Just open. Just keep opening. Because this is what's happening, and this is the reality of what's happening. And I don't have to like it. I don't have to even accept it right now.

A (30:10)

Yes, totally. Yeah, I know. And our hearts, like, they skip forward because. Because just, like, love is an arrow, right? And it just, like, goes right to them, and then we're constantly skipping forward.

B (30:22)

Yeah. Don't skip to the end. Saying to my mom, like, this morning when she called me, just crying and I said, mom, we cannot think about what's going to happen next week. We cannot think about what's going to happen in three weeks or. Or two months. Right now, today. This is what we're dealing with. And this we're at. And then we're going to go to bed tonight, and tomorrow we're going to wake up and we're going to see what we have on our plates tomorrow, and then we're going to tackle that. Okay.

A (30:55)

That's so wise.

B (30:57)

It's the only thing that we can do.

A (31:01)

I know I'm always stuck on that because, like, the part of me that always wants to save myself future pain is always trying to anticipate the terrible thing and fold it into what I know now. And I'm like, oh, no, that's realism. That's realism. Kate, you're doing hard work. Good for you two. AM Kate. Just working hard, just like. But the truth is, because we don't know. Just holding, like, holding your ground on the. On the, like, on the possibility that, yes, it might be terrible, but, yes, it might also be beautiful. And, like, that is a hard place to live. And it sounds like you are, like, policing the boundaries of it with a lot of ferocity, which I love you.

B (31:40)

Talked about this year and how so many people are now touching upon this place, the unknown and that fear that rolls in. And I think for you and me, man, does my heart, the compassion, the empathy that I have because you and I walked that road and we got a little bit ahead of everyone on that because of what we've been through.

A (32:07)

Living with chronic uncertainty, it gives. It does give you, like, a horrible and wonderful skill set that, like, does really come in handy in a moment like this.

B (32:18)

My friend Jen says you're very good in a crisis, and I believe that. And it's not a skill Set that I ever wanted to. No, no. In fact, sometimes I'm like, is that a. Is that bad? Is it bad? But, like, it's just what it is.

A (32:35)

I know. Have I gotten too good at this? Does everyone not need rope and duct tape right now? Yeah.

B (32:42)

So true. Like, how am I okay inside of all of this? I don't know. You know, weeks ago, he was like, I'm feeling depressed. How are you okay? And I'm like, listen.

A (32:57)

I already like that sentence. I already like where that sentence is going.

B (33:00)

Listen, where do you want me to begin?

A (33:05)

I'm just thinking of all the people who. Whom we talk about, like, hope and the. And the. And the. And the might be. You know, that place of might be maybe where when they're going through something really awful, that something they do right now is like, is they take out the Christmas lights now or. Or they. Or they pull out the tree early or they. You know, and. And I. I mean this in no trite way. Like, that is part of what, like, Hallmark movies and the. And the. The beauty of small joys. Like, if you watch a Hallmark movie, like the. There's always like, a montage or someone just, like, bakes something beautiful or shares a memory or, like, takes the boxes down from the attic, and like, that is. That is, like, the discipline of. Of. Of memory and then of, like, just reveling in what. What might be if we make, like, a tiny little space for a little bit more joy.

B (34:07)

I got into this whole thing when I was a kid because I watched a movie or I watched a TV show or I read a book or I listened to my grandfather tell a story, and I felt connected. I didn't feel alone. I didn't. I. It. There's something about the art and the act of storytelling. It's what you do on this podcast. It is what you see on Hallmark movies that allows us to feel connected to something, and we don't feel alone in our lives.

A (34:41)

And.

B (34:41)

And it reminds us, especially in the world of Hallmark, what matters and what's important is the little joys, and it's little things that bring you happiness, and it's the people in your life. And I knew that I wanted to be a part of that. I was like, I want to make people feel like that.

A (35:03)

Well, mission accomplished. And you inspired by, obviously you and Hallmark. I actually do have an annual gingerbread competition every year. I make little. Little baby mega churches, Tiny little gingerbread mega churches.

B (35:22)

Oh, I love it. I love it.

A (35:24)

There's always, like, a little Lego pastor Usually it's a woman, because I like to shake things up.

B (35:29)

Oh, I love that. I love it so much. We did. We started doing that as well. I mean, Hallmark has actually inspired me to dig so much deeper. I was like, I'm not doing enough for Christmas.

A (35:40)

Garlands, deforestation. I love it.

B (35:43)

We need gingerbread house competitions. We need, you know, to make all the cookies. We need to decorate. Every. Every room needs a tree.

A (35:54)

Every room needs a tree.

B (35:57)

I can't believe I'm so lucky that I get to make movies that make people happy. And. And there's. It's just such a gift. It's such a blessing. It really is. I mean, if I have to fall off 10 Christmas trees and. And get amnesia, I'll do it over and over again.

A (36:20)

Well, and I will be watching. And you, you've called these the. The best, worst years of your life, and I just thank you for sharing the beauty of that with me every Christmas and especially today. Thank you, Nikki.

B (36:35)

Thank you so much, Kate. I really appreciate this conversation.

A (36:49)

Oh, dear one. This year, we have lost so much jobs, the illusion of health, financial success, security, people we love, even hope has been in short supply. We are lonely and tired and afraid, and we don't know when it will be over. Even when it's tempting to close up shop to punt celebration and joy for another time in the distant future when things feel lighter, May this be a permission slip for you to find small pockets of joy and celebrate. Still, just like Nikki reminded her mom, tomorrow holds its own problems. So let's make decisions with the information we have today. Maybe it's in a few extra minutes by the fire or indulging in a silly Christmas movie or challenging your friends to a gingerbread house building competition on Zoom. No, the holidays will not feel the same, but there is still a little room to celebrate the small joys. To know that right now, there can still be magic. This podcast wouldn't be possible without the generosity of the Lilly Endowment. Huge thank you to my team, Jessica Richie, Keith Weston, Harriet Putman, and J.J. dickinson. Okay, so it's the season of adventure. It's the season of almost. Almost Christmas. Almost a vaccine. Still the night, but we need the light. And I have an idea for how we can spend this together. We need gentle ways right now to find hope and beauty and love. So join me on Instagram and Facebook to find out more. See you. This is Everything happens with me, Kate Bowler. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada premium on Apple podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

B (40:28)

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

A (40:31)

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.