Featuring: Julia Gets Wise with Ruth Reichl

Summary

Podcast Summary: "No One Is Coming to Save Us" Featuring Julia Gets Wise with Ruth Reichl

Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus (Wiser Than Me, via Lemonada Media)
Guest: Ruth Reichl
Date: November 27, 2025

---

Main Theme

This intimate and lively conversation between Julia Louis-Dreyfus and food icon Ruth Reichl dives deep into the intersection of food, memory, personal growth, and overcoming challenges—both in the kitchen and in life. Ruth shares her wisdom on embracing life’s pleasures, the unique role of food in family and healing, confronting perfectionism, career transitions that seem daunting, and the transformative power of collaboration. Both women also reflect openly on their families, bodies, and the evolving relationship one has with themselves over the years.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Food as Comfort, Tradition, and Meaning

• Food as a Source of Healing and Connection:
  Julia recounts a difficult period—losing a pregnancy and being bedridden after an infection—and recalls her mother cooking chili and cornbread. Although she wasn’t allowed to eat, the cooking filled the house with warmth and love.

  • “The making of it was so comforting. It was so embracing. Food is central to the traditions of my family.” (Julia, 02:53)

• Family Recipes and Rituals:
  The conversation touches on gratitude for food and the tradition of giving thanks to everyone involved in bringing a meal to the table.

  • “We’d like to give thanks to everyone who had a hand in bringing this nutritious, delicious food to our T. Isn’t that a lovely prayer?” (Julia, 03:30)

2. Ruth Reichl’s Approach to Food Writing

• Describing the Indescribable:
  Ruth explains her process in making food writing not just about taste, but about evoking emotion and memory—transcending flavor.
  • “Food is my music. The kind of pleasure that other people get out of music, I get out of food...and I have always wanted other people to understand that here is this simple pleasure.” (Ruth, 07:53)
  • “If you say, ‘When I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush,’...then you’re telling people what the experience of it is rather than the flavor.” (Ruth, 10:04)

3. Wisdom from a Life in Food and Writing

• Perfection is Not the Goal:
  Ruth describes how advice from legendary food writer MFK Fisher pushed her to challenge perfectionism, embrace speed, and recognize the finite impact of any one piece.

  • “You need that experience. You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect...because nothing will ever be perfect.” (Ruth, 14:34)

• Advice on Fear and Opportunity:
  When offered the editor-in-chief job at Gourmet magazine, Ruth initially hesitated out of self-doubt and fear, but mentors urged her to take chances.

  • “It’s the things that frighten you that are the things you have to do.” (Ruth, 45:07)

• The Secret to Staying Young:
  Ruth emphasizes growth through new experiences:

  • “The only thing that really keeps you young is constantly doing things you don’t know how to do.” (Ruth, 49:11)

4. Family, Mental Health, and Resilience

• Navigating a Difficult Mother-Daughter Relationship:
  Ruth reflects on the impact of her mother’s severe bipolar disorder and how coming to terms with her own separate identity was essential for happiness.

  • “If you have a really crazy parent, one of two things happens. They either destroy you or make you strong.” (Ruth, 21:09)
  • The process of “exorcising” her mother’s influence was unplanned but life-changing, allowing her to become fully herself. (23:11)

• Supporting Family Through Cooking:
  Both Julia and her mother discuss how, during challenging moments (9/11, birthdays during crises), cooking served as an anchor and a way to assert continuity and hope. (57:14-59:59)

5. Criticism, Ethics, and Integrity in Restaurant Reviewing

• Responsibility to Readers:
  Ruth discusses the obligations and ethical dilemmas of being a food critic, sharing that she kept a photo of a young couple to remind herself to be honest for their sake.

  • “Every time I was tempted to hedge my bets...I would look at them and think, they’re going to go there because you said that, and they kept me honest.” (Ruth, 26:09)

• Navigating Power and Influence:
  Ruth recounts memorable moments involving disguises as a food critic (sometimes even as her own mother!), the evolution of dining culture, and dealing with personalities at Conde Nast.

• Directness vs. Complaining:
  Ruth notes she’s straightforward but not a complainer, sharing:

  • “If someone says to me, how was it? I will say, well, it really wasn’t very good.” (Ruth, 30:42)

6. Body Image, Food, and Acceptance

• Letting Go of Obsession:
  Ruth and Julia both reflect on struggles with body image and how, for Ruth, marrying someone who genuinely appreciated her as she was helped her drop the cycle of self-denial.
  • “That little voice, it seems to me, makes you just eat more...I woke up one morning and I had lost 35 pounds, and it was just because I had stopped obsessing about it.” (Ruth, 41:57)
  • On food, weight, and being “pretty”: Ruth recounts her mother encouraging her to smoke to lose weight as a youth. (43:15)

7. Collaboration, Creativity, and Professional Growth

• Joy of Collaboration:
  In a bonus segment, Ruth shares about learning the joy of working with others at Gourmet and how that changed her approach to writing her cookbook "My Kitchen Year."
  • “You end up with something better than you started with.” (Ruth, 70:47)
  • Julia and Ruth agree this creative energy is the best form of work life. (71:04-72:33)

8. Dealing with Change, Endings, and Moving Forward

• Cooking as Meditation:
  Ruth deals with hard endings by cooking, describing it as meditative and grounding.

  • “When I’m really in a bad place, I just start cooking. And it focuses me.” (Ruth, 50:07)

• No Major Regrets:
  When reflecting on her life, Ruth expresses very few regrets, highlighting contentment and acceptance.

  • “I’m sorry to say this, but I don’t have a lot of regrets.” (Ruth, 54:16)

• Learning to Find Joy in New Challenges:
  Ruth’s recent ease and joy in writing a second novel are contrasted with an earlier lifelong struggle, illuminating the surprise of finding new pleasure late in a career. (54:54-55:08)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(with timestamps)

• “When I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush...as good as that shower you take when you come in from a run.” – Ruth Reichl, 10:04
• “The idea of being wise just...it’s daunting.” – Ruth Reichl, 05:25
• “You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect...because nothing will ever be perfect.” – Ruth Reichl, 14:34
• “It’s the things that frighten you that are the things that you have to do.” – Ruth Reichl, 45:07
• “You end up with something better than you started with.” – Ruth Reichl, 70:47 (bonus clip)
• “I don’t think I’ve ever turned down anything that I wish I hadn’t.” – Ruth Reichl, 54:05

Memorable anecdote:
Julia’s shocked reaction to Ruth hating honey and Ruth’s poetic description:

• “I would describe it as like, leaping into a mud puddle, which turns out to be deeper than you thought it was.” – Ruth Reichl, 12:40

On the power dynamic at Conde Nast:

• “I better not get used to being a princess. I’m not gonna be a princess my whole life. So why, why do it now?” – Ruth Reichl, 32:27

Anna Wintour and the goat carcass in the elevator:

• (On Anna Wintour seeing staff with a dead goat in the elevator:) “They said she was just so horrified, she backed into the corner. You know, nobody was supposed to even get in the elevator with her if she was in the elevator. ...But nobody said anything about a goat carcass coming into the elevator.” – Ruth Reichl, 33:51-34:15

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Food and family memory: 01:08–03:30
• Introduction to Ruth and her legacy: 04:15–05:23
• Ruth on aging and the fear of endings: 05:39–07:21
• Writing about food and describing experience: 07:53–11:12
• Perfectionism and the importance of ‘good enough’: 14:34
• Ruth on her mother's mental illness: 21:02–23:42
• Responsibility as a critic: 26:09–28:42
• Navigating entitlement at Conde Nast: 31:22–34:15
• Body image and letting go: 41:22–43:45
• Taking risks and trying new things: 45:07–49:11
• Dealing with endings through cooking: 50:07–50:59
• Collaboration and cookbook creation (Bonus): 67:33–72:33

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, warm, and often humorous, with both Julia and Ruth trading stories of vulnerability, growth, and joy. There’s a deep sense of camaraderie as they reflect not just on challenges in their professions and personal lives, but also the daily rituals—especially cooking—that root and propel them forward.

---

Conclusion

Listeners are treated to a masterclass in living fully: embracing pleasure, shedding perfectionism, taking risks, and staying young through new challenges. Ruth Reichl exemplifies wisdom, directness, and warmth in every story, while Julia’s genuine curiosity and humor make this conversation both insightful and deeply comforting—a feast for anyone who savors both food and the stories around it.

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything.

[Ruth Reichl]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, everyone. Julia here. Since it's Thanksgiving, I thought it would be the perfect time to revisit one of my favorite conversations from season one with the amazing Ruth Reichl. She's a food writer, magazine editor, author, and an all around culinary icon. Ruth and I have a warm and funny conversation about the way food shows up in moments of joy and grief and how doing things that scare you can sometimes lead to the most meaningful parts of life. And as a special treat, we're sharing a bonus clip at the end of this episode, something that only Lemonada Premium listeners have heard before. Whether you're cooking, traveling, or just taking a break today, I hope this feels like sitting down at a really great thanks for being here. And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

[Oha]

When I was about 28, I got pregnant for the first time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I was crazy happy.

[Oha]

I got pregnant easily.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I felt very fertile, very womanly. And then quite late in the pregnancy, my husband Brad and I discovered that.

[Oha]

This little fetus was not going to live. So that was emotionally devastating, as you can imagine. But it got worse because I developed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

An infection that landed me in the hospital.

[Oha]

And I mean, this whole thing was just a complete nightmare. Of course, my mom flew out to be with me and before she left, she told her best friend Ellie that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She was coming out to be with me.

[Oha]

And naturally, the first thing that Ellie said to her was, so what are you gonna cook? After a couple of days, I finally got out of the hospital and I.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Came home to recuperate.

[Oha]

But I wasn't allowed to get up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Out of bed yet.

[Oha]

I was, as they say, bedridden.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But my mom cooked.

[Oha]

She made this incredible cozy chili in a cast iron skillet with cornbread on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Top in the pan. And she and my husband Brad set.

[Oha]

Up a little card table at the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Foot of the bed. And the smell of cornbread and the.

[Oha]

Chili was so wonderful. It just filled the room and the whole house and my heart, really. Because here's the thing, I couldn't eat. I wasn't yet allowed to have solid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Food, but it didn't matter.

[Oha]

It was the best meal ever and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I didn't even eat it.

[Oha]

The making of it was so comforting. It was so embracing. Food is central to the traditions of my family. I would think that to most families that's the case. I relate food especially to my mom. She's a great cook.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This is one of my greatest memories.

[Oha]

Around food, even though it has sort of an odd kicker, really. Like my sweet niece Fia says before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A meal, we'd like to give thanks to everyone who had a hand in.

[Oha]

Bringing this nutritious, delicious food to our.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

T. Isn't that a lovely prayer?

[Oha]

I am so thankful to have food. God knows plenty of people don't. And I'm also so thankful that today I'm talking with food writer Ruth Reichl.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, a show where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

[Oha]

Oh, man, are we in for a tasty treat.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Today I am talking to Ruth Reichl.

[Oha]

Who does so much that's impossible to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Describe her as any one thing.

[Oha]

She is an actual fucking polymath. A celebrated chef, a restaurateur, an early.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mover and shaker, and what I guess.

[Oha]

You'D call the farm to table kind of food movement. She can correct me on that when we get going.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She reinvented the role of food critic.

[Oha]

At the LA Times and the New York Times. And as editor, she reinvented Gourmet magazine, which is where I first fell in love with her. Deeply in love with her. I was obsessed with Gourmet. That's where she published actual food literature by people like David Foster Wallace, which is no surprise because she's also a fancy ass writer herself, writing nearly a.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Dozen books, amazing cookbooks, revelatory memoirs like Tender at the Bone and a novel. She's won seven James Beard Awards, which.

[Oha]

Is like the Oscars for food. And she's earned a reputation as a totally subversive, democratizing force, an activist in the world of food. She's also a daughter, a wife and a mother. And she's obviously wiser than me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Holy shit, Ruth.

[Ruth Reichl]

The idea of being wise just. It's daunting.

[Oha]

It is daunting. So pretend we're just having a conversation.

[Julia's Mom]

Okay.

[Oha]

So first of all, are you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Comfortable saying your age?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yes. You can't think of yourself as young anymore when you're 75. And that's a very strange idea to me because I don't feel like an old person.

[Oha]

Yeah, you don't look like one either, if you don't mind my saying.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, thank you. My biggest problem with getting older is, you know, there are things that you think of, like, when my cats die, will I get more cats? Because they would outlive me.

[Oha]

It's funny, I've had the same thought about my dog George, because I figure he'll live, like, 14 years, and then I'll be into my 70s, or I'll be 75. Let's say he kicks it. Then. Do we get another animal?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah. So you think about things like that. I mean, you actually think, will I be around when X happens?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

I mean, that's the big thing I mind because I hate the idea of not being here. You know, I never want to miss a party. You know, I'm having so much fun in this life. I just. I'm not ready to give it up.

[Oha]

Yeah, I hear that. There's a lot of joy to be had. I mean, it's funny, because, no, I don't want to get morbid, but, you know, I had breast cancer a few years back, and when I got the diagnosis, which was so terrifying, but one of my first thoughts was, I don't want to go. I don't want to leave. I do not want to leave. And it was sort of what you're talking about. I want to. I'm. I. I am not ready for an exit in any sense, you know?

[Ruth Reichl]

Exactly. But you've survived it, right?

[Oha]

Oh, yes.

[Ruth Reichl]

You're fine.

[Oha]

Yes, I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Touchwood. Yes.

[Oha]

Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm five years out now, so that's a good thing. First of all, the way you write about food and your food memories. I was talking about this with my husband, Brad, whom you know, and he was saying that it reminded him of writing about music. What is your process to write about food in such a way so that people feel it, taste it, experience it? What is that process for you, if you can break it down? I don't know if you can.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, I can try. I mean, in many ways, food is my music, you know? I mean, the kind of pleasure that other people get out of music, I get out of food, and it just gives me endless joy. And I have always wanted other people to understand that here is this simple pleasure, you know, it's there, it's available to all of us all of the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

And I really believe that it's important to be open to the little pleasures of life. I mean, I think that's probably the secret to living, is to be aware when you taste a strawberry that you know, it's a moment of grace, that you're in the world, or if you're out walking in the rain and just that feel. I mean, all of those things are a way that we can experience joy. And I grew up in an America that didn't care about food, didn't appreciate food. You know, American food was a joke in the 50s. And, you know, I lived in New York, and I was surrounded by all this really wonderful food. And I kept sort of like, wanting to say to people, here, here it is.

[Oha]

Just, you know.

[Ruth Reichl]

So I spent a lot of time thinking about, how do you describe the intangible? And, you know, the more you think about it, the more you understand that I have no idea if you taste what I taste.

[Oha]

Right, of course. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

It's such a personal. You know, it's going on in your mouth, and who knows if anybody else in the whole world tastes what you taste? So I always tried to write about food in ways that transcended flavor. I mean, saying that something tastes like lemon isn't very useful if you hate lemon or lemon doesn't taste. I mean, I love lemon. Me too.

[Oha]

Me too.

[Ruth Reichl]

But if lemon doesn't taste the same way to you as it does to me, how is that useful? But if you say, when I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush, or it's as good as that shower you take when you come in from a run. And then you're sort of telling people what the experience of it is rather than the flavor.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

I spent a lot of time trying to think about how would I describe this flavor in a way that would make sense to someone who had. Who basically didn't. Wasn't able to taste.

[Oha]

So you're sort of connecting it to experience and to memory, and you're getting in the inside of it in a way? In that sense, yes.

[Ruth Reichl]

And you're trying to take experiences that we all know. What is it like on the first day that it snows and you go outside and you haven't seen snow for a year?

[Oha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

What is it like to catch a snowflake on your tongue? That's a useful way of describing eating a souffle. You know, the way it just evaporates.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh, you're so right.

[Oha]

That's amazing. Have your taste buds changed as you've gotten older?

[Ruth Reichl]

Probably, but I'm not aware of it, really. It's like being the frog in the pot of boiling water. It happens so gradually that you haven't noticed it got hot.

[Oha]

But, like, when you were younger, were there foods that you loved or hated that you feel differently about now, or is it sort of remain.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, you know, I've only really ever hated one food and the truth is that I don't hate it as much as I used to.

[Oha]

Ah.

[Ruth Reichl]

I have always loathed honey.

[Oha]

What in the living fuck are you talking about?

[Ruth Reichl]

I can't stand honey. I just hate it.

[Julia's Mom]

Really.

[Ruth Reichl]

It makes it. It's like it makes my whole body quiver. I just can't stand that taste. But I can tolerate it now. And I. You know, when I was a kid, I really couldn't.

[Oha]

I used to hate honey when I was little, but as I've gotten older, I've grown to like it a lot.

[Ruth Reichl]

Incomprehensible to me that someone could like honey. I know most people do.

[Oha]

God. I mean, like, if you could describe honey, your experience with honey, how would you describe it?

[Ruth Reichl]

I would describe it as like, leaping into a mud puddle, which turns out to be deeper than you thought it was.

[Oha]

Oh, the bees now hate you.

[Ruth Reichl]

No, they're happy because I'm not stealing their honey.

[Oha]

Yeah, it's too.

[Ruth Reichl]

They don't want you to steal their honey.

[Oha]

No, they don't.

[Ruth Reichl]

They like me a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Oha]

That's amazing. God. So what's the best? Since we're dancing around the ideas of experience and wisdom and so on, what's the best advice you've ever gotten?

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, let me see. When I was. I had been a freelance writer. I was living in Berkeley in a commune, and I was asked to become the restaurant critic of the LA Times.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

And I was very reluctant to move to Los Angeles to take a job. I mean, I was 35, and I'd never had a real job. I'd always been freelance. I had become very good friends with MFK Fisher. And I told her that I had gotten this job offer and I was going to turn it down. And she said, you take that job, you are polishing every word. You write as if it were a gem. And you need the experience of going to a newspaper where an editor says to you, I need 15 inches, and I need it in an hour. And you do it. And it's not the best thing you ever wrote, but it's good enough. And tomorrow it's going to be lining someone's birdcage. And you just need. You need that experience. You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect.

[Oha]

Not to be precious about it.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yes. And I took the job. And I think it was a piece of advice that transcended, you know, take that job. It was about perfection in some ways, I see. You know, as an editor, I have known so many writers who can't turn the work in because it's not perfect yet. And you can waste your whole life looking for perfection because nothing will ever be perfect. No book is ever really finished. You know, you could keep making those sentences better. So I mean, the advice that she gave me essentially was don't ever think that perfection is your goal, because it's not. It can't be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's more with Ruth Reichl in just a few moments. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why people love a good podcast or save voicemails from loved ones, because there's nothing like the comforting sound of a familiar voice. Who do you call when you need to recharge? Maybe it's your mom? Your sister, your best friend from college? AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, Call someone because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me Ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. Black Friday at Macy's is officially on. It's the best time to get ahead on your holiday shopping so you can eliminate any possibility of last minute scrambling. Macy's has cashmere sweaters starting at $49.99 for the someone in your life who loves wrapping themselves in softness, sipping tea and leaning into the finer comforts of life. Take 50% off, select beauty products from Tarte Kiehl's and more for the playful Glam Enthusiastic or the self Care Ritual Keeper.

[Oha]

And for the kids on your list.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Macy's has Lego for up to 40% off. And the best part is when you buy your holiday gifts at Macy's. You can make the season even brighter by rounding up for Big brothers, big sisters. 100% of the funds go directly to supporting these one to one mentoring relationships. Macy's has already raised over $13 million, creating more than 280,000 mentoring moments so your holiday shopping can make a real difference in a Macy's Black Friday is the perfect time to save Big on top gifts for everyone on your list, including you. Get a head start and finish your holiday shopping early. The Macy's Black Friday sale is happening November 10th through November 29th in stores and online at Macy's.com the air's crisp, the holidays are creeping closer, and before the to do lists really take over, it's nice to slow down, go for that long walk, hit the pumpkin patch. Savor the calm before the chaos. Chaos. Quince has you covered with cozy layers that look timeless, feel luxurious and make holiday dressing and gifting a low lift. They have these incredibly soft $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim silhouettes that never go out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Oh, and their Italian wool coats. The cuts feel designer and the quality rivals high end brands, but without the high end markup, every single thing on their website feels curated and so thoughtful. They really are such a special brand. By working directly with ethical top tier factories, Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last. From Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser it's fall, which means your skin's about to start acting differently. The air gets colder, the wind picks up and suddenly your dewy summer skin feels dry and dull. Updating your makeup for fall isn't just about new shades. It's about switching to hydrating found cream blushes, products that actually protect your skin while you wear them. Whether you're opting for a simple just enough routine or full festive fall glam. Thrive Cosmetics is your go to for bringing the look to life. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free and made with clean skin loving ingredients. They've got this brilliant eye brightener that's basically your antidote to seasonal dullness. The sun's setting by 5pm, your serotonin dropping but your eyes still bright. It's one of those swipe it on and instantly look alive products. And it's waterproof too. Plus, every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're doing more than enhancing your glow. You're helping others shine too. Thrive has given over $150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners, so your purchase directly fuels real impact. Complete your fall look. Go to thrivecosmetics.com wiser for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com wiser.

[Oha]

So complicated women so your mother was A very complicated person.

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh my God.

[Oha]

Oh my God.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yes. Yes. Yeah, she really was. And you know, she was bipolar.

[Oha]

Yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

You know, as one of her shrinks said to me about the worst bipolar case he had ever encountered. I mean, she was really. I mean the highs were really high where she didn't sleep for weeks. And the lows were she would go to bed for six months and read the same book over and over and over again for six months. But you know, if you have a really crazy parent, one of two things happens. They either destroy you or they make you strong. And you know, I literally still I wake up every morning grateful that I'm not my mother, you know, and I'm very aware of my good fortune in being sane. And that's a piece of great good fortune. And if you recognize your fortune early in your life, and I knew it from the time that I was about or nine, that my mother was deeply unhappy and I wasn't, there's a real measure of happiness. I mean, I feel like I am basically a happy person and that that happiness comes from knowing that I don't have the same burdens that my mother did.

[Oha]

Was your dad a happy man?

[Ruth Reichl]

He wasn't unhappy.

[Oha]

Uh huh.

[Ruth Reichl]

My dad was a sort of classic European intellectual and I don't think happiness even figured into his idea of what life is.

[Oha]

I didn't and don't have parents with as bad a mental health issue as your mother, but my father, who's since passed has. Oh God. He was a true narcissist in the clinical sense. So I can understand what you're talking about sort of recognizing it. And I've spent a lot of time in my own life trying to somehow fix that with him. But there was something nice when I realized that's him and that's not me. And away from that is where I live, you know, separate.

[Lemonada Premium Producer]

Yes.

[Oha]

Yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yes. And that's a very big step. And I think there was a point in my life where my mother was inside my head and I can't even tell you. I wish if I knew how I exercised her, you know, I could change the world. I don't know how it happened, but there was a point when suddenly she just didn't have that power over me anymore. And I was an adult at the time that that happened, where she and I were just truly separate.

[Oha]

So does that mean you didn't talk to her as you got older?

[Ruth Reichl]

No, no, not at all. It just meant that when I did talk to her, she didn't have that power over me anymore. I mean, my first husband and I moved back to New York after college and my parents were so in our lot. I mean, my mother was so in our life that we finally just realized we had to leave. I knew I couldn't live in the same city I see as she did. But my feeling, my sense, when I would go home, I would go home to New York and as I was knocking on the door, I would have this feeling that when the door opened, I would turn back into 8 year old little Ruthie again, you know, and that I would be right back where I was. And it's why I had to keep her out of my life.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

And then there was a time when I could open that door and walk in as me and stay you and stay me and be the competent grown up person that I was.

[Oha]

And when did your mom pass?

[Ruth Reichl]

I was in my mid-40s when she passed.

[Oha]

And then your dad after that?

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh, no, he. He died earlier.

[Oha]

Oh, he died earlier. Were you in charge of taking care of her?

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was at the LA Times, my mother would call me like 12 times a day.

[Oha]

Okay.

[Ruth Reichl]

And she would say things like, there's no food in the house. You have to come to New York and go buy me food. And I would say, mom, the Jefferson Market delivers. Call them up.

[Oha]

So she was battling her mental health illness even to the very end, Right. Or was she a little more stable?

[Ruth Reichl]

No, she had a period of stability. And I could tell you how that ended, but it's so tragic. I won't. But she did have a few wonderful years.

[Oha]

Oh, that's nice.

[Ruth Reichl]

As an old person. Really wonderful years. Where she was, you know, where we would all like to be, which is like halfway into the first martini, she was just a little bit high and she could stay there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Stay right there.

[Ruth Reichl]

She stayed right there.

[Oha]

Oh, wow. Since I've been somebody who's been on the receiving end of criticism, Negative and. Yeah. And positive, how did you reconcile your power as a critic? How do you come to terms with that yourself?

[Ruth Reichl]

I kept a photograph of a young couple on my bulletin board, which I, you know, looked at it every day when I was writing reviews and I imagined that they were people who didn't have very much money and they saved up all year to go out for one great meal on their anniversary. And I imagine every time I was tempted to hedge my bets and say something nicer than I really felt about a restaurant, I would look at them and think, they're going to go there because you said that, and they kept me honest.

[Oha]

So you felt an obligation to the consumers out there?

[Ruth Reichl]

I did. I mean, I felt like, you know, that's who I'm writing for. That's who's paying me. And, you know, I'm sorry if, you know, my reviews hurt people. On the other hand, you know, most restaurants want to be reviewed, and I have to tell the truth. And if I can't do that, I shouldn't be doing this job. Those reviews really. They have an impact.

[Oha]

Oh, yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

And, you know, I mean, it's unfortunate because people love bad reviews. I mean, people really. The consumers love to read those, you know, these really nasty reviews. And it's easier to write nasty reviews than it is good ones. I mean, you can be very funny writing mean reviews, but the real obligation is to the consumer. And the other obligation is to the people who are really talented and who run restaurants and work really hard, and it's not fair to them. If you're saying that someone who's only doing a mediocre job is better than they really are.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

You know, I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore. I'm really glad.

[Oha]

That's a lot of. That's a different hat, isn't it?

[Ruth Reichl]

It's a different hat, and it's, I don't think, a particularly fun one. And I should say that, you know, when I started writing reviews, it was a very different time. You know, I mean, chefs didn't have PR people.

[Oha]

Yeah. They weren't celebrities. For the most part.

[Ruth Reichl]

They weren't celebrities. And it was a much easier time. And then sort of halfway through my career, that all shifted. And then I started wearing the disguises. And, you know, I mean, when I got to New York, I really was the enemy. I mean.

[Oha]

Did you wear a wig?

[Ruth Reichl]

I wore many wigs.

[Oha]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I.

[Oha]

Did you take pictures of yourself?

[Ruth Reichl]

There are a few pictures. I mean, mostly I didn't because I didn't want them floating around out there. Yeah. The best disguise I ever had was as my mother. Yeah. Because I had her clothes and I had all her jewelry, and I got this. My mother had short gray hair.

[Oha]

Yeah.

[Ruth Reichl]

And I got this short gray wig, and I took a picture and sent it to my brother. And I had never thought I looked like my mother, but Bob's response was, I've never seen that picture of mom before.

[Oha]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah. And I really looked like her, and then I behaved like her, and it was weird. Really? Yeah. It was very. I mean, my mother was. I mean, like, I am a person who, in my real life, I have never sent anything back in my life. I mean, I just don't do that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait a minute.

[Oha]

You mean you don't send food back if it comes and there's like.

[Ruth Reichl]

I don't.

[Oha]

Lots of hair and things in it?

[Ruth Reichl]

No, I've never gotten lots of hair.

[Oha]

Well, I'm trying to think of the worst case scenario, you know, or bugs or something. You just won't.

[Ruth Reichl]

I don't. You know, I am not a squeaky wheel in real life. I'm just not. My mother, on the other hand, sent everything back. The drink wasn't cold enough, the soup wasn't hot enough. Whatever it was, it went back.

[Oha]

And you were dying and I was dying.

[Ruth Reichl]

My father and I were both dying while mom was sending this stuff back. And so there I was, being my mother and, you know, imperiously sending everything back. It was kind of fun.

[Oha]

You're very direct, though, Ruth. You may not be a squeaky wheel, but what impresses me about you is how direct you are.

[Ruth Reichl]

I know it's odd. I mean, I don't think of myself as direct, but I know I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you are.

[Ruth Reichl]

I am?

[Oha]

Yeah. In a way I like very much.

[Ruth Reichl]

I am not a complainer.

[Oha]

I see.

[Ruth Reichl]

I'm just. You know, if someone says to me, how was it? I will say, well, it really wasn't very good.

[Oha]

Yeah, there was a lot of hair and bugs in it.

[Ruth Reichl]

There were bugs. What about this big piece of glass?

[Oha]

I had to go to the ER afterwards.

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh, God.

[Oha]

In your business, I mean, you've worked in a world where people can be incredibly misbehaved and entitled. How have you managed to navigate these.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

These douchebags?

[Oha]

And by the way, I work in a world that's similar to that, too. And I'm wondering, how do you think you've done that?

[Ruth Reichl]

I don't know. You know, I mean, being at Conde Nast was really something because you and I talk about entitled people. Oh, my God. I mean, the stories that the drivers would tell you about, you know, what happened in their cars, what people did to their cars, really. I think I was probably the only editor at Conde Nast who took the subway. And I once had the great joy of making my publisher come on the subway with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Who?

[Oha]

Cy Newhouse.

[Ruth Reichl]

That's. I know. His. His nephew's wife was my. My first publisher. We were somewhere and there was, like, traffic, and I said, oh, come on, let's just take the subway, you know? And she was like, oh, my God. You expect me to take the subway?

[Oha]

And you made her do it.

[Ruth Reichl]

I made her do it. I said, you know, okay, you know, we can take this. I wait. It'll take 10 minutes. Or we can like, wait for your stupid car to come and it'll be an hour, right? I don't want to waste an hour. So she very reluctantly came down into the subway with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But.

[Ruth Reichl]

They were just, to me, a real object lesson. I mean, because when I got to Conde Nast one, I thought, this is not the rest of my life. At some point I'm going to get fired, as everybody at Conde Nast gets fired eventually. And so I better not get used to being a princess. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna be a princess my whole life. So why, why do it now? Why even get used to it?

[Oha]

Uh huh.

[Ruth Reichl]

And so I was very aware of the fact that this was not real life. It was not my life. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be that person. I didn't want to be any of those people. They made me sick. They really did.

[Oha]

So that's how you navigated them?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah.

[Oha]

You paid no attention to them?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, yeah.

[Oha]

In that sense, yeah. I like that.

[Ruth Reichl]

You know, I mean, one of my favorite moments at Gourmet was I sent two of my people off to do a story about this halal butcher where you chose your own goat. And then they blessed the goat and killed it in front of you. And they come back to the magazine carrying this warm goat in a big plastic bag. And they. They run into the office and there's an elevator door that's just closing. And they rush in with this bag of Rican goat. And Anna Wintour is in there. I was just gonna say, please tell.

[Oha]

Me Anna Wintour was in there.

[Ruth Reichl]

Anna Wintour was in there. And they said she was just so horrified, she backed into the corner. You know, nobody was supposed to even get in the elevator with her if she was in the elevator. You were supposed to wait for the next one. That's hilarious.

[Oha]

But nobody said anything about a goat carcass coming into the elevator.

[Ruth Reichl]

Exactly.

[Oha]

They said other people, but not a goat carcass.

[Ruth Reichl]

Not a goat carcass.

[Oha]

That is a great story. I love that. God damn it. I wish we had a. Like my dad used to say, I wish he had an oil painting of that moment. I know. Oh, shit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We'll get more wisdom from Ruth Reichl.

[Oha]

After this super quick break. Stay tuned.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get it. The power of hearing someone speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something, you know? Who do you call when you need a little one on one holiday boost? Maybe it's your best friend who lives across the country, or your aunt who always seems to have the exact advice you need to hear. Or how about when you need to get hyped up for something big? Perhaps you call up your work bestie who's known for giving a pep talks. AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you called someone who matters, now's the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they'll hear forever. So spread a little love with the call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. So last Christmas might not have gone exactly as you planned. Maybe someone gave you socks from the gas station or a cheap candle that smelled like old buttered popcorn. Maybe you even re gifted something once and you got caught. But that's the thing about Christmas. Every year is a new chance to get it right. This time can be different. So give a gift that people really want. Aura Frames Aura frames are the world's smartest digital picture frames. You get all of the photos from your phone, beautifully displayed at home. Invite all your loved ones to add photos from anywhere, anytime. It's personal, meaningful and a gift that keeps everyone connected long after the holidays are over. They are incredibly quick and easy to set up. It only takes a couple of minutes. You can play live photos or 30 second videos with audio and even react with cues emojis to show you love a photo, send congratulations and more. You can preload the frame before it even ships, add personalized messages and keep adding photos and videos straight from your phone. With unlimited free photos and videos, all you need is the Aura app and a WI FI connection. Share memories effortlessly, whether it's big events or everyday moments, and watch them appear instantly on the frame. Every Aura frame comes in a premium gift box ready to give with no price tag. It's thoughtful, simple and keeps your loved ones close no matter the distance. For a limited time, visit Oraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames Name Number One by Wirecutter by using promo code Wiser at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code wiser this exclusive black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now. Before it ends, support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Here's a hard, cold fact. In sub Saharan Africa, 4 million teenage girls drop out of school every year because they get pregnant. Teenagers everywhere are full of restless curiosity about sex and big feelings. But for most of these girls, there's no access to birth control. And when they get pregnant, school ends. Some even risk their lives trying to end the pregnancy. Too many die. Now here's the good news. There's an organization called MSI Reproductive Choices. These people go to the ends of the earth to give girls contraception and control over their futures. They've got top ratings from Charity Navigator and Candid evaluators of nonprofits. And for just 26 bucks, you can give a girl contraception for four years. That's four years to finish school, four years to dream a little bigger. Go to MSIUnitedStates.org that's M for modern, S for safe. I for informed. Modern safe informed MSI United States.org or even easier, just text the word wiser to 511-511-text wiser to 511511 MSI United States.org give a girl a chance. Text fees may apply. The holidays are chaos, especially when you're trying to find the perfect gift. Everyone's got an opinion. Magazines are publishing their 75 must have creams, social media is telling you to slather on something without an ingredient list, and every brand claims to be clean and green. It's a wild west of skincare wrecks and honestly, who has time to sort through it all? That's why osea's Ocean Body Glow set is such a gift giving no brainer. It's the rare combo of luxury and integrity. Genuinely clean, sustainably sourced and clinically proven to make skin glow. Every product feels like a mini spa moment. This three piece limited edition gift set is so so so lovely. It includes three undaria algae products, body wash, body oil and body butter. This is a gift you can feel great about giving because OSEA is vegan and cruelty free, certified and prioritizes recyclable packaging like glass. Plus, they were the very first company to sign the Compact for Global Production of Safe Health and Beauty Products, an initiative from the Environmental Working Group. Chances are you'll want to grab one for yourself too. But hurry before this luxurious limited limited edition set sells out. Save $40 on the set at oseamalibu.com and get an additional 10% off with code wiser. Give the gift of Glow this holiday with our listener discount on Osea's clean, clinically tested skin care. Just use code wiser for 10 off your first order [e-mail] that's 10% off your first order with code wiser and at o s e a malibu.com.

[Oha]

You wrote that piece for. I think it was for Allure about your body and being heavy as a kid, or you called yourself fat and that getting fat took up a lot of energy in your life. How do you push past that voice in your head to seize the opportunities of being a food critic or whatever?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did you relax?

[Oha]

Have you been able to relax about your body and the idea of gaining or losing weight, or is that still very present in your life?

[Ruth Reichl]

I would say a little bit of both. You know, I did have this remarkable experience of meeting a man who I then married who, like, likes big women. And so, for the first time in my life, that little voice that said, don't eat that, don't eat that. And that little voice, it seems to me, makes you just eat more. You know, the more you look at something and think, I shouldn't eat that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Ruth Reichl]

We started living together and that voice went away. And my experience of this, I don't know if it's true, but my experience of it was that I woke up one morning and I had lost 35 pounds, and it was just because I had stopped obsessing about it.

[Oha]

The relationship between food and women in particular is so fraught and in a way that is completely unjust. And I certainly battled my weight when I was younger, and I always felt sort of like this dumpy person as a youth. I felt kind of, you know, once I became a teenager and I was uncomfortable with weight and I overate. I was an overeater to a certain extent, but as I've gotten older, and maybe there's something about having kids, too. I don't know. The relationship that I have had with food has changed dramatically in a way that I'm relieved by. You know? Really relieved.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah. I mean, the thing about weight is it's also about, are you pretty?

[Oha]

I know.

[Ruth Reichl]

Which is so important when you're young. And, you know, I just kept hearing over and over again, you just. You'd be so pretty if you just lose some weight. Weight.

[Oha]

Right.

[Ruth Reichl]

And my mother, you know, got me to smoke when I was 12, because, you know, if you smoke, you won't eat.

[Oha]

Oh, Lord Jesus.

[Ruth Reichl]

You know, for me, the big Lesson was, don't say no. And, you know, if. If I feel like I can always eat anything that the no isn't there, then I don't have a problem.

[Oha]

Oh, my God, do I agree with that. That's why in this very drawer of the desk that I'm talking to you on, it's my chocolate drawer. I love chocolate, and I have a piece of chocolate every single day. And that's a game changer.

[Ruth Reichl]

Exactly.

[Oha]

Let's talk about that transition for you, becoming the editor at Gourmet. You had never edited a magazine before, and a pretty. I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What can we say?

[Oha]

It was at the time, Tony?

[Ruth Reichl]

It was a Bible. It was like, you know, it was like the American food Bible.

[Oha]

How did you make that kind of leap? Because I think you were a little fearful of it.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, no, I was very fearful of it. I mean, because I didn't think I knew how to do it. How I made the leap was two ways. One was an older woman, a friend of mine, and I said, you know, Paula, I would love to do this, but I'm not quite ready yet. You know, maybe in a year or so it would be the right job. And Paula said, ruth, it's never the right time. You have to take the opportunities when they come along. If you don't take it, it won't come again. So just do it. The other piece of it was. And this is probably the best advice I have to give anyone.

[Oha]

Oh, goody.

[Ruth Reichl]

It's the things that frighten you that are the things that you have to do.

[Oha]

Oh, God.

[Ruth Reichl]

When something really scares you, you know you have to do it. And, you know, it's like every. Every scary thing. I mean, running the David Foster Wallace piece was terrifying, which was why I knew that there was no way I could walk away from it. The first major review, the review I'm known for, which is the one of Le Cirque, where I wrote it in two takes. One is myself, and one is a person in disguise. I thought I was gonna get fired for writing that piece. I mean, I didn't sleep for two nights before that piece was printed. Really, I was so frightened that I was convinced that I hadn't ever been to the restaurant. I mean, I made myself so crazy that I thought I had made the whole thing up.

[Oha]

But wait a minute. For those who are listening, can you describe. So it was two different pieces that ra.

[Ruth Reichl]

Outside, it was one piece, But I said, lecirca is two different restaurants depending on who you are. So I went many times in disguise. And they treated me like dirt. And then the last time that I went, I didn't go in dis. I didn't make the reservation. My own name, but I didn't go in disguise. And I knew he had a picture of me. And sure enough, the owner sees me. And I went with my nephew who was working on Wall street, and I got him to make the reservation. And he said, well, I could only get a 9:30. And I said, okay, let's go at 8 and see what happens. And we walk in at 8 and there's this huge group of people waiting for a table. And the owner, Serio, sees me and he parts them like the Red Sea, takes my hand, pulls me forward, and says, the King of Spain is waiting in the bar, but your table is ready.

[Oha]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Ruth Reichl]

And I said to my nephew, oh, yeah, the King of Spain is waiting in the bar. And he turns around, he goes, he is waiting in the bar. I saw him on TV last night.

[Oha]

Oh, my God, I can't get over this. Okay.

[Ruth Reichl]

And so then he says, you know, can we make you a menu? And there's, you know, white truffles and black truffles and champagne. And, you know, they give us a table for. For four for the two of us. And so I write, this is what happens if you're the restaurant critic of the New York Times. But if you're just an ordinary person going there, don't think they're gonna be very nice to you, because they aren't.

[Oha]

You're looking at that picture of the couple.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, exactly.

[Oha]

Exactly. Yeah. So go ahead. So nobody had ever done anything like that.

[Ruth Reichl]

Nobody at the New York Times had ever done anything like that. And I knew that my editors were really nervous. And I wasn't quite sure why they were so nervous, but I could feel it. And I knew that it had gone all the way up, that the editor in chief had read, and he didn't read Restaurant. They'd vetted it with him. And the next day, I found out that it was the publisher, Punch, Zolzberger's favorite restaurant, and that they really were terrified. Wow. My editor later called me, and I was so nervous, I couldn't even pick up my messages. The next day. I waited, like, until, like, 4 o' clock in the afternoon to actually listen to my messages because I knew I didn't go into the office. I was just. And the first message of the day was from my editor, who said, well, everything is fine. Because the first phone call that Punch got This morning was from Walter Annenberg, a very big deal. Walter Annenberg, who called Punch and said, that's the best review the Times has ever run, because apparently he had once gone there and not been recognized and been treated my dirt. That's incredible.

[Oha]

So what did this experience teach you?

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, again, when something frightens you, you have to do it. It's worth doing. And you know that you always have to push the envelope, that it's really important to have new experiences. And the other part of that is, and this is the other big piece of advice I have to give people is the only thing that really keeps you young is constantly doing things you don't know how to do. If you spend your whole life doing things you already know how to do, you get old fast.

[Oha]

The one thing that I've realized, you know, doing this crazy ass podcast, talking to older women, is the subject of endings. That subject comes up a lot in conversation. And how do you deal with endings in your life? You know, be it jobs, which I know you've had multiple endings on, and marriage and losing people that are close to you. I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it. How have you gotten through big shifting endings if you have?

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, you know, I go into the kitchen. You know, I mean that's, that's sort of where when I'm really in a bad place, I just start cooking. And it focuses me.

[Oha]

It's a meditation.

[Ruth Reichl]

It's a meditation and you know, it reminds me that I'm lucky to still be alive. And I think the only way to honor the memory of the people you love is to just live your life to the fullest, you know, and going into the kitchen sort of reminds me of that. It's like being around all the aromas and, you know, the wonderful tactile sense and slicing and it sort of brings me back to into the world.

[Oha]

Can I ask you a really selfish question? Because when I was reading your My Kitchen Year, you know, your recipe for pound cake?

[Ruth Reichl]

Uh huh.

[Oha]

So I'm gonna make that one as soon as I get home, but I was thinking I might add orange to it.

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh yes.

[Oha]

You like that?

[Ruth Reichl]

I do. I love that.

[Oha]

And so would you add like a tablespoon of orange zest? I was thinking maybe like a tablespoon of orange zest and maybe half a cup of orange juice because we have orange trees, so I could use our oranges.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, I would certainly add, you know, the zest of one large orange. I'M not. I have to look at that recipe because I'm not sure what orange juice would do to it. The acid may change the balance.

[Oha]

Uh huh.

[Ruth Reichl]

I would start by just using zest.

[Oha]

Okay.

[Ruth Reichl]

And not, not juice.

[Oha]

Okay. I'm pulling out the book for those who are listening because. Oh, and I have to make those eggs and the potato. Oh, Jesus, you're making me hungry, woman. This is so much fun. I can't tell you how much fun I'm having talking to you.

[Ruth Reichl]

And I'm gonna be in LA for three months this year, so.

[Oha]

Oh yeah. So speaking of which. So I was hoping maybe I could get you guys to come up to Santa Barbara. You could come up and she's about to say, I'll cook for you, but maybe.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, we could cook together.

[Oha]

We'll cook together.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah.

[Oha]

You want to?

[Ruth Reichl]

Sure, I would love to. I would love to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, great.

[Oha]

All right. Now I'm already freaking out thinking about what we're going to have.

[Ruth Reichl]

Don't freak out.

[Oha]

Hey, can I ask you something? Do you remember when we were at. We were at our mutual friend's house having dinner and I brought a key lime pie? Did you hate it?

[Ruth Reichl]

No, I love key lime pie. It was a great key lime pie. Why would I hate it?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I don't know.

[Oha]

I was worried, I wasn't sure.

[Ruth Reichl]

I am not a big sweets person.

[Oha]

That may be it.

[Ruth Reichl]

So I don't, I mean, I never eat a lot of sweet things. Although I have to say, I've pretty much devoured your really wonderful marmalade.

[Oha]

Oh, well, guess what? You are getting so much more of it.

[Ruth Reichl]

It is so delicious.

[Oha]

We can make it when you come. If we've got oranges in season. That would be fun to do too.

[Ruth Reichl]

That would be great. But can I just. I am not a chef. I mean, I'm not a trench. I'm just a person who likes to cook.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Ruth Reichl]

I mean, you know, I hear you, I hear you. And I did, you know, I was part. I had a restaurant, but it was a collective. We all did everything. So sometimes I was the chef and sometimes I was dishwasher.

[Oha]

Okay, got it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you're a dishwasher.

[Oha]

I could use a dishwasher.

[Ruth Reichl]

I'm a good dishwasher. And I even like washing dishes.

[Oha]

Do you really?

[Ruth Reichl]

I, I do.

[Oha]

Well, if you're good at it, I will, I, I. You are employed. But if you're not, I'm gonna 100% fire you. Okay, so now there's just. I'm gonna ask you a couple More little, really quick questions. Tell me something that you would go back and tell yourself at the age of 21 if you could.

[Ruth Reichl]

You will be happy.

[Oha]

Oh, that's a good one. Is there something you go back and say yes to?

[Ruth Reichl]

I don't think I've ever turned down anything that I wish I hadn't. No.

[Oha]

Oh, how nice. Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on?

[Ruth Reichl]

Not really. I mean, I'm sorry to say this, but I don't have a lot of regrets.

[Oha]

I was just gonna say you're not a regretful person. And so what are you learning now?

[Ruth Reichl]

What am I learning now? I've actually been trying to do a whole bunch of new things now. I mean, right after I left Gourmet, I wrote a novel. Mostly because I thought, I don't know how to do this, so let me see if I can. And I've just turned in a new one. And let me say it, it gets easier the second time and much more fun. I mean, one of the things I've learned with that is I find writing very difficult.

[Oha]

It is difficult.

[Ruth Reichl]

I like having written, but writing itself is often awful. I did not find writing this novel difficult. I found it pure pleasure. Just a joy.

[Lemonada Premium Producer]

Huh.

[Oha]

What do you attribute that to?

[Ruth Reichl]

I don't know. But my agent said you're never allowed to write anything that. That isn't fun. Again, interesting to have been writing professionally for what, 50 some years and suddenly find out that even the act of writing can be fun. Wow. Amazing.

[Oha]

Thank you, Ruth.

[Ruth Reichl]

This was so much fun. I feel like, you know, I could just sit here all afternoon.

[Oha]

I know. I feel the same. I feel like this is a conversation to be continued, which you and I can do between us. But this has been very kind of you to be so honest and open. And you're just an inspiration on so many different levels to me and I know to others, of course.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, thanks. Really fun for me. And I'll see you. I'll see you in la.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, please.

[Oha]

Love it.

[Ruth Reichl]

Okay, thank you. Okay, bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye.

[Oha]

Oh, my God. I just agreed to cook for Ruth Reichel. Why the did I do that? Oh, my God. I need to ask my mom what to make. I gotta call my mom.

[Julia's Mom]

Hi, honey.

[Oha]

Hi, Mommy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How are you?

[Julia's Mom]

All is well. All is well. And. And how about with you?

[Oha]

Everything is great. I mean, tons to catch up on. I want to tell you about my call with Ruth Reichel because, Mom, I wish you could have been in the conversation with us. You would have been so delighted to talk to her, you're cut from the same cloth in many ways. It was incredible.

[Julia's Mom]

Well, first of all, I'm glad you know how to pronounce her name, because I've always called her Ruth Reichel.

[Oha]

I know.

[Julia's Mom]

So it's Rachel.

[Oha]

I know it's Rachel. Exactly.

[Julia's Mom]

But the same cloth. Can you put that on my tombstone?

[Oha]

Yes, exactly.

[Julia's Mom]

No, no, that's. That makes me feel better about how I boil eggs and everything.

[Oha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia's Mom]

Every time I boil an egg now, I'm going to say, this is exactly what. The way that Ruth would have done it.

[Oha]

Right. Exactly. God, there so much. I have so much to tell you. So, first of all, she was talking about growing up in the 50s, and. And she said American food was a complete joke in the 50s. And so I was remembering what you said about Dee Dee, my grandma Dee Dee and her mom, because great Grandma Bessie grew her food and canned her food. And your mom's reaction to that. She thought that was appalling.

[Julia's Mom]

Well, it's true. And also. So I think it's a reaction against, you know, in other words, I think my mom's reaction was she saw her mother in the kitchen all the time doing all this stuff all about meals and mother's generation, who was. There were more flappers and they wanted to have some fun. So frozen foods and canned foods and. And dresses that weren't homemade.

[Oha]

Got it.

[Julia's Mom]

And I do think that the generation that. My mother. That was my mother's thing of the frozen foods and the canned foods was terrible. And my mother used to make baked beans, but what she did was just. She opened the can and dumped it. And then it was just. She put a lot of brown sugar in it, and that was our baked beans. And then there were our gelatin molds also, which, by the way, have been underrated because I have to say it's a great thing to make.

[Oha]

Perhaps when you come to visit next, we'll make it. I will say I find the notion of it repulsive, but I'm happy to try it. So this is another thing that she was talking about. She talks about food and the making of food as a meditation. When she is sort of at her lowest, she goes into the kitchen, and that's been a sort of a savior to her. And it's an interesting thing because certainly in our lives together, when there have been challenges and we've had a few, we often talk about what we're going to make.

[Julia's Mom]

Absolutely. And I remember at 911 that we sat watching that picture over and over again, and I Remember feeling that the bottom had dropped out of everything. And then I thought, oh, my gosh, it's Matt Sartman's birthday. And so I called Ellie and I said, what are you doing for Maddie's birthday? And she said, well, we were going to go go out for dinner, but of course, we're not now. I said, oh, Ellie, please, please, please come over here. And she said, great. So I made a meatloaf and mashed potatoes and applesauce and angel food cake. I mean, I was there cooking, and I was like, there is a tomorrow. There is something to live for.

[Oha]

Yeah. Very important. Well, speaking of that, mom, so she and her husband Michael are coming to la. They're going to be there for a couple of months. And so I said, oh, my God, I have to have you up to Santa Barbara. And I said, we can. And then immediately I'm thinking, oh, shit, what am I going to cook? And I said, well, we can. I said, I can cook. And she said, we can cook together. And I said, yes. Okay, okay.

[Julia's Mom]

Oh, my. Oh, my God.

[Oha]

I know.

[Julia's Mom]

Yeah.

[Oha]

So you have to start thinking, mom, what can I make? Put your thinking cap on and report back to me. We have to think about that.

[Julia's Mom]

Oh, gosh. I know. Julia, that is going to be priceless. That's going to be absolutely priceless.

[Oha]

Yeah, I know. I'm excited.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And she.

[Oha]

I did give her orange marmalade last year because we had dinner with Jim and Carlene, and I gave her orange marmalade, and she remembered and was saying how much she loved it. So needless to say, she's gonna get a case of that marmalade when I see her next.

[Julia's Mom]

Well, no, no, no. Not a case. Half a case.

[Oha]

All right, half a case. I know. You get the other half, Mommy.

[Ruth Reichl]

You get the other.

[Julia's Mom]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Oh, yeah, by the way, making the marmalade. How about that? That is such a precious thing to do. You have the oranges right there, and they grow out of your actual soil.

[Oha]

Yeah.

[Julia's Mom]

And then you get them, and then you do them, and it's the best marmalade in the world.

[Oha]

It's pretty good. But, you know. Know Grandma Dee Dee would not approve. But that's fine. We brought it back around to the real thing.

[Julia's Mom]

That's right, that's right. That's right. It wasn't frozen. It wasn't. Wasn't bird's eye, but.

[Oha]

It wasn't bird's eye, but we'll get over it. Oh, shit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Love you, Mommy.

[Julia's Mom]

I love you.

[Oha]

Talk to you later.

[Julia's Mom]

Okay, Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. Stick around. After the break, we're sharing a bonus clip with Ruth that only Lemonada Preview Premium listeners have heard before.

[Oha]

Don't go anywhere.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sometimes you think, wow, people once got to learn from Frida Kahlo herself or study under Florence Nightingale. Well, now you're getting to live in the age of Amy Tan and Alice Waters, both wiser than me guests. By the way, that's really something.

[Oha]

Something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There are some people you just want to keep learning directly from that you're so grateful to exist at the same time as them. With Masterclass, you can learn from remarkable thinkers like this. Take Diane von Furstenberg's class, for example, which has 17 video lessons walking you through everything from finding design inspiration in nature to staying true to yourself. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month, and that gives you unlimited access to over 200 classes. They're taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Learn to cook with Soul and Purpose from Madhur Jafre. Explore Storytelling and truth with Roxane Gay or find your voice with Jodie Foster. These are bite sized lessons with big impact, the kind that fit into even the busiest schedules and really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] wiser that's 15% [e-mail] wiser masterclass.com wiser.

[Oha]

So you're.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All packed for your trip to LA Lake Atitlan, ready to explore volcano frame villages, witness Mayan ceremonies, and maybe join one of the largest ecstatic dance gatherings in the world. Your base Casa Arbo in Hybelito, an incredibly serene sanctuary perched above the lake, nurtured with over 20 years of reforestation. Step into Hibalito, a quiet lakeside town accessible only by boat. It's perfect for total solitude and no neighbor. But while you're off exploring one of the most beautiful countries in the world, your home doesn't have to sit idle. It can help make the journey possible. By hosting your home on Airbnb, you can earn a little extra income to help fund your next adventure. So next time you pack your bags, consider sharing your corner of the world with someone else by hosting your home on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host this show is sponsored by MIDI Health. Looking at how your mother and grandmother experience menopause can offer clues about your own journey. Opening up those conversations with the women in your family not only helps them feel seen, it deepens your understanding of where you come from and what might lie ahead. Modern medicine still doesn't fully grasp what's happening in women's health, but by noticing patterns, being in tune with your own body and taking charge, you can figure out what's going on and get the support you need. If you are in midlife feeling dismissed, unheard or just plain exhausted by a healthcare system that doesn't seem to get you, you're not alone. For too long, women's serious midlife health concerns, from perimenopause to menopause, have been brushed aside. In fact, 75% of women seeking help for these issues go entirely untreated. It's time for a change. It's time for midi. MIDI is a women's telehealth clinic clinic founded and supported by world class leaders in women's health. And MIDI is the only women's telehealth brand covered by major insurance companies, which means they can make high quality expert care accessible and affordable for all women everywhere. Their clinicians offer one on one consultations, listening to your unique needs and providing holistic, tailored solutions. MIDI combines expert data driven care with guidance to help you tune into your own body, understand what's happening and take charge of your health. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit joinmidi.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitty.com MIDI the Care Women Deserve all right, as promised, here's a bonus moment from my chat with Ruth where she talks about learning to collaborate as the editor of Gourmet and later when writing My Kitchen Year. If you like this little extra bit, you can get more by subscribing to Lemonada Premium for ad free listening and bonus episodes of Wiser Than Me. Just tap subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any app. That's lemonadapremium.com.

[Lemonada Premium Producer]

Welcome to another premium episode of Wiser Than Me. Hi, I'm Oha, one of the producers of the show. This week we're bringing you a little bit more from Julia's conversation with legendary food journalist Ruth Reichl. In this exclusive clip, Ruth tells Julia about her love of collaboration and how it completely transformed her 2015 cookbook, My Kitchen Year.

[Ruth Reichl]

Writing that cookbook is another example of do we have time? Can I keep talking, please?

[Oha]

I'm loving this so much.

[Ruth Reichl]

I mean, it's an example of sort of what I learned being the editor of Gourmet, which is that, you know, when you're a writer, you write alone most of the time, right? And what I learned at Gourmet was. Was the joy of collaboration. And so when I wrote that cookbook, my idea was it was gonna be a little tiny, like a book of hours, you know? And so when I sold it, I said to my editor, I don't want photographs or anything. I just want it to be like a little book that people can take to bed and read at night, you know, with the recipes in it, right? And she said, yes. And then I turned the manuscript in, and she said, no. Oh, no. We need photographs. And I was like, well, first of all, it's going to put it off a year because it's a seasonal book, so we're going to have to take a whole year to shoot it. And she said, that doesn't bother me. And then she said, but you just have to find a photographer you want to work with. So I called my design director from Gourmet, who I love dearly, and said, who should I get as a photographer? And he said, you should get Annie Leibowitz. No, you should get Mickle Fung. And I said, why? And he said, because he's really easy to work with. You'll work well together. And he does. He won't. He won't bring a lot of lights and stuff. So I called Nicol and said, would you do this? And he said, oh, I'm done with cookbooks. I really don't want to do cookbooks anymore, but send me your manuscript. So he called me the next day and said, okay, I've read your manuscript, and I'd like to do it, but here are the rules. Rules. It's just you and me. I'm not bringing an assistant. You're not having any help. We're not having prop people. We're not having anybody fussing around with the food. It's just you and me, and you'll just. You'll cook the food. I'll come up for three days in each season. You'll cook the food. We'll put it on a plate. If it doesn't look good, it doesn't look good, but it's just going to be the real thing. And I said, great. And we made a contract with him that he would do 20 shots for each season. But when he got here, he Just started taking pictures, wandering around the landscape, and he took hundreds of great photographs.

[Oha]

Wow.

[Ruth Reichl]

And when we went to design the book, the wonderful designer just started using all of these photographs, and it totally changed the book.

[Oha]

Oh, it's like a scrapbook. It feels like a personal scrapbook.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, exactly. And between Mickle's photographs and, you know, this really talented designer, you know, they came up with something that was so much better than I come up with on my own. And. And, you know, that's the real joy of working, is when each person adds their piece to it, and you end up with something better than you started with.

[Oha]

Oh, I'll say. Hallelujah. I couldn't agree with that more. And that's in evidence in the book. And I've had that experience. Not, of course I don't. I'm not a food writer, but I've had that experience as an actress, and I can tell you that it doesn't get better than that.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah.

[Oha]

Joyful collaboration. Working towards something, and look what comes out of nothing. And then all of a sudden, it's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This glorious thing, and you're working in tandem with people.

[Oha]

It's incredible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I think in the book, too.

[Oha]

What I also love about the book.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Not just how the food is photographed.

[Oha]

It all looks beautiful. But how he photographs your hands and you from behind, and it feels the focus. It's unbelievably artful. I love it.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, he was wonderful. But also, that's what we did at Gourmet, you know, I mean, it's like. It wasn't like I went in there and changed it. I just went in and said to this group of people, what are we gonna do? You know, and we very much did it. And that was why giving it up was so difficult, because, oh, my God, I bet, you know, we became so. Such an amazing team.

[Oha]

Yes.

[Ruth Reichl]

And, you know, I would. I would go in and I would go into a meeting, and I would say, what if we did a Paris issue? Right? And then everybody would start juggling the balls. And I. I remember leaving every meeting and thinking, I wonder what we're going to end up with? You know, and it was just the joy of finding what the issue really was going to be. And it just kept changing. I mean, it was wonderful. It was just so much fun. And I really miss that, working with.

[Oha]

People, you know, Are you in touch with those. All your people from.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Not.

[Ruth Reichl]

Well, not everybody, but there's a big group of us that's, you know, I mean, I am in touch with someone from at Least one person from Gourmet every day, you know, I mean, for all of us, it was.

[Oha]

Well, not.

[Ruth Reichl]

I mean, I think there were some people who. It was not such a great experience, but for most of us, it was really, you know, as good as it can get in a job.

[Oha]

It was such a spectacular magazine, and what you did with it was so, I would imagine, leaving. It was gutting.

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah.

[Oha]

Every show in my life that has ended, you know, Old Christine, Seinfeld, and particularly Veep, it was gutting, even though it was the right thing to do and the time and et cetera. But it was a similar experience of everybody working towards a common goal and everybody bringing their best selves. And a team, it's like a team. It's like a sports team even, you know?

[Ruth Reichl]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And, I mean, you had had that with Seinfeld, and I sort of. I mean, I don't know much about acting. Anything about acting, but, you know, I sort of imagine that in a good place, it's like that where you're all sort of, you know, have each other's backs and, you know, and it's like when we. We on the other side of the camera, see, you know, the laugh reels where you're all laughing, and I am particularly bad. You have this sense of how much fun everyone's having. And, you know, I mean, as a writer, you just. You don't normally have that experience, so when you have it and then you have to give it up, it's like.

[Oha]

Work has been a savior to you in your life.

[Ruth Reichl]

Oh, I do not understand how people don't work. I really, for me, the greatest privilege is working and doing work that you like. I mean, I think every job I've ever had, I would have done for free. I mean.

[Oha]

I feel the same. It's like it was an extracurricular activity when I was in high school, and now what, you make a living doing this? I feel the same. Don't tell my agent that. I feel the same. It's true.

[Lemonada Premium Producer]

That does it for another premium episode of Wiser Than Me. Thank you so much for listening and subscribing to Lemonada Premium. We'll be back next week with another episode of Wiser Than Me. And as Julia says, if there's an old lady in your life, remember to listen up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you're all packed for your trip to Lake Atitlan, ready to explore volcano frame villages, witness Mayan ceremonies, and maybe join one of the largest ecstatic dance gatherings in the world. Your base casa Arbo in Jaibalito, an incredibly serene sanctuary perched above the lake, nurtured with over 20 years of reforestation. Step into Hybalito, a quiet lakeside town accessible only by boat. It's perfect for total solitude and no neighbors. But while you're off exploring one of the most beautiful countries in the world, your home doesn't have to sit idle. It can help make the journey possible. By hosting your home on Airbnb, you can earn a little extra income to help fund your next adventure. So next time you pack your bags, consider sharing your corner of the world with someone else. By hosting your home on Airbnb, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.