← No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups
No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups
Jared Kushner: BrainCo, Affinity Partners, and the Geopolitics of AI
00:58:24
Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:00]
Sarah Goa
Foreigners. Welcome back to no Priors. I'm Sarah Goa and Elad and I are here today with Jared Kushner at the Miami headquarters of his investing firm, Affinity Partners. We're here to talk about Affinity, the new co they're launching BrainCo and his career in government, business and investing. Welcome, Jared. Jared, thanks so much for doing this with us.
- [00:28]
Jared Kushner
Oh, it's good to be with you guys.
- [00:30]
Sarah Goa
So you have a couple interesting new and newish projects. Let's start with Affinity. You were an investor before and you started a firm after your time as a public servant. What did you do differently?
- [00:42]
Jared Kushner
When I left government, I was thinking, what could I do to apply the different learnings that I'd had to my next version of a business career? And as I was studying all the different firms out there, I realized the world didn't need another, you know, a couple billion dollar private equity firm. But I tried to focus as I would speak to my friends who were investors on what they needed, what value we could provide. And what we saw was that we had the ability to be complex problem solvers. That's what did in government. That's what we were good at. And we thought we could do that in partnership with a lot of other firms. So the aspiration with Affinity is to be the most value add and outcome determinative partner to the best entrepreneurs and the best companies in the world. And so we focused on finding the best companies, thinking through what are biggest challenges, what are their biggest opportunities, and thinking through how we can partner with them, putting skin in the game by investing with them versus a consultant and being in a position where we can then help them achieve their aspirations. And a lot of, you know, we have a very unique large network and are very trusted by the people we deal with. And so they open up to us about their challenges and opportunities and then we're able to scope and look for different solutions, and then we validate them through investment, and then we're able to add value to the companies we're investing in by helping them find new customers and new opportunities.
- [01:59]
Sarah Goa
In what ways do you think companies are not as globally ambitious as they should be? Like if they knew what you knew or had the network you did?
- [02:09]
Jared Kushner
I think for most people to be very successful at something, they usually are very focused on an industry or on a geography. And to be exceptional, you have to be fairly obsessive about whichever of the fields you are trying to be exceptional in. And so what happens is they usually have a lot of perspective in their field or in their geography, but they don't have the time or the knowledge or the network in order to see how people like them are doing similar things throughout the world. And so by having a real global perspective, I was able to see that in most places, if you're successful, you have a fairly positive and local centric view of yourself. But, but when you can look at a global view, I would say, wow, these guys in India or these guys in the Middle east or these guys in Europe, they're doing the same business but in a different way. And so by giving those suggestions, sometimes connecting them together, you can help people who are very good at something accelerate or modify their business in order to do something hopefully better than they would have done without your perspective.
- [03:09]
Elad
My sense is your Milner kind of did that when he showed up for Facebook and did a famous investment there. It's because he'd been involved with a core or he started a Russian network, a Russian social network. And so he realized that Facebook could monetize in all these ways that it wasn't doing it. And so that's how he did valuation. And I think at the time everybody thought his valuation was crazy. And how could you invest in Facebook at $5 billion or whatever it was. And of course now it's like a trillion dollar ish company. And so I think it's really notable when people kind of bring these cross border things over. I think you've mentioned in the past that you all are involved in businesses in Israel, in Europe and Latin America. Could you give some specific examples of some of the things that you've done through affinity and how that is pulled together from a global perspective?
- [03:46]
Jared Kushner
Sure. So I agree very much with what you're saying about being a generalist. Sometimes you can miss things, but also sometimes you can see things that other people don't see. And the cool thing about investing is you don't have to be right about everything. You have to be very focused on finding the things that you think. You have a differentiated perspective on where you can have high conviction and then you place your bets on those high conviction bets that you want to take. And so by being global, we've done things a lot in the technology space, we've done a lot here in the US in technology and AI and the data layer and some of the models and some of the different applications that we've worked on. You've helped us source and introduce us some incredible companies in that space. Then we also have made investments throughout the world. We've done some in insurance, we've had four insurance investments, which we like. I mean, those fit into more of our bucket of conventional businesses that have some form of differentiation, great leadership and can be long term compounders. Another one of those businesses we did was we bought into the food sector in Brazil. We bought a lot of the Burger Kings there, and then we just bought the Starbucks and the Subway out of bankruptcy. We did that in partnership with Mubadala, which has been great so far. And I think that'll be a great long term investment. And so we just look for different types of companies. And then now obviously with AI, we're thinking how can we apply AI to these businesses? Which is helping us understand what the limitations and what the capabilities are of AI and how will impact the future of both conventional businesses, but also technology businesses.
- [05:14]
Sarah Goa
You talked about how your time in government changed how you think about how you can help these businesses and who to do business with. Has it changed your underwriting at all, like how you evaluate?
- [05:27]
Jared Kushner
I'm not going to say we're going to be right all the time, but I think where we have some form of specialization is that we're able to understand what are the macro trends of a country and do we think that the governance in place and the leadership in place is pushing the country in a direction that is compatible with private sector investment. And my general framework of what I came away from government with is that government has limitations and that government at their best can set the right policy. And if you have great leaders who can do that, you still need the private sector to come and be your partner in order to bring expertise, technical expertise, you need them to bring project management capability, you need them to bring capital. And then they also need to have local navigation skill. If you have three out of those four things, it's a recipe for disaster. So the private sector isn't always organized in a way that governments need them to be in order to effectuate their ambitions. But if you can put that cocktail together in a good way, there's amazing potential for what can be achieved. And one example is we're doing a big investment in Albania. Now that's a market that. When I started looking at it three years ago, a lot of my friends were saying I was crazy. But what I saw there was a country that had a ton of potential. You looked at where it was located in Europe. The place was incredible. Very, very good leadership for a while. They have a prime minister, Eddie Rama, who's actually, I think a socialist technically, but he's socialist that he's for the people. But he's pro private sector, pro business, and he's created an environment with the rules and regulations that's encouraging capital investment in the country. And he also is an artist by training, so he actually has amazing taste and he really wants to make his country dynamic in that regard. And so what we helped there is we saw the right elements as a government that was and the raw material for a country to be successful. But what we're bringing is capital, expertise, great designers, great brands, and I think we'll be able to help each other do incredible in that scenario. And I have a friend actually was there this summer and he called me after and he said, Jared, when you told me you were going to Albania, I said, how is somebody of the world like you investing in someplace that's so outside of the world like Albania? And he called me after to say, can I buy a house there and I want to invest with you. And I'm going to be doing several projects there because I think it's going to be an unbelievable place. But, but understanding governance and the structure allowed us to see it for what it was, not for what it reputationally was perceived to be. And again, we obviously did a lot of diligence and spent a lot of time trying to validate those things. And so far our experience has been very, very positive there.
- [07:56]
Sarah Goa
It's interesting to think that there are like entire countries that are underpriced or mispriced right now.
- [08:01]
Jared Kushner
Yeah, well, if you think about it, there's, there's tens of thousands of companies, if not more, and you could buy or sell them every day on the market. And those, by and large, are fairly efficient. I mean, there's obviously inefficiencies as well in public markets, but it's pretty efficient. But there's roughly 200 plus countries and they're all very inefficient. And so there's always opportunities to optimize and that's why they need the private sector. And if you can understand the countries that you think have upside in it, the number one thing I've looked at is what are the big macro trends? And I think that that's, I wouldn't call it our number one criteria. It's just a criteria, right? If you don't have the right tailwinds behind you, you shouldn't be investing. It's just much easier to be with tailwinds than headwinds. You know, I liken it to surfing. If you're a mediocre surfer and you surf, you know, terrible waves, it's going to be bad. If you surf a great wave, you'll look okay, right? The goal is to obviously find amazing waves and also to be an amazing surfer. But if you're a great surfer, you have to make sure you're going to the places where you have the potential for a great wave. So those are the macro trends we look at. And then obviously we have our criteria beneath that for what we look at in order to make something qualify as an investment that we would look to partake in.
- [09:09]
Elad
If you look at countries that are, it looks like they're going to really participate in the future. There's sort of the pre existing stalwarts, you know, there's the US and Israel and in some ways China, et cetera. And then there's at least in Silicon Valley some perception that some areas are increasingly really engaging with sort of being protech or pro progress. An example would be Singapore. It'd be uae. What do you view as sort of the most either underpriced or underappreciated countries in the world, either from a technology perspective or more broadly from just a general investment progress, you know, forward looking perspective.
- [09:40]
Jared Kushner
So, so Singapore is like blue chip. When I was in, when I was in government, anytime I was given a new problem I had the desk where like all the really bad problems. When people were like, we don't know what to do with this. You know, let's, let's give it to Jared. My first question was always, okay, what do they do in Singapore? Right. Because you know, in government what I learned is nothing. Even though every problem seemed crazy. Like I started reading a lot of history and then studying other countries because nothing was actually new under the sun. Every problem I was dealing with, somebody had dealt with it either at some time or in some form or in some. And I wanted to pull whatever learnings I could from that in order to inform the approach I was going to take. In some ways my lack of experience was actually a benefit because I approached every problem by saying how could I learn from the people who have done well and the people who have failed in order to effectuate that? So Singapore has just been a very, very steady example of a country that's done a lot of the right policies in the right ways for a long time. When I left government, one of my strong instincts was that the Middle east, whether it was Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE were places that were very, very much on the. And I really had to kind of go back and question myself because I wanted to make sure I didn't have a recency bias from having spent so much time there and having built such strong relationships there. But a lot of the time when I was helping them think through how do we solve intractable political problems like ISIS and Iran funding proxies in different areas, a lot of the efforts were around how do we build strong economic ties with America, how do we build strong economic ties with Israel potentially? And what are the win win scenarios that economic cooperation can bring to lift societ. And so I saw a lot of ambition in those places. And then obviously they're probably more middle market countries, but they have big tools available to them from an economic perspective. And so when you put a country's toolkit together with kind of industry and capital, there's a lot that they can do to really accelerate innovation. And obviously they all have different forms of leadership, but all committed in different ways to big advancements. That's part of the world very excited about. And then Latin America, I think that there's a lot of opportunity there. I think after Covid, there's a lot more hesitancy from US Corporations to be dependent on Asia for their supply chain. So I think Mexico has been and will continue to be a big beneficiary of that. I think obviously under President Trump, he's trying to work out some issues, particularly with the cartels and illegal immigration, and then to make sure we have kind of a fair and balanced relationship. But the reality is that if we set that relationship right, Mexico should be a massive beneficiary from a rising US And I think so far the policies that have been set forth of lowering taxes, lowering regulation, it appears that interest rates will probably come down next year. If we can get some of these global conflicts resolved, I think Mexico will be a big beneficiary along with the rest of Latin America, of a rising America.
- [12:32]
Sarah Goa
Speaking of just being focused on the biggest macro trends, I'm biased here in thinking that AI is probably the biggest macro technology wave we're going to see in our lifetimes. You and a lot and Eric and Luis started a company together around this. What can you tell us about Brainco and how it came about?
- [12:49]
Jared Kushner
Sure. So AI definitely, as far as I'm concerned, is the biggest technology shift that I've seen in my lifetime. And as an investor, when something's changing, we felt it was very important to kind of take a step back and say, okay, you can't just assume that tomorrow is going to be like yesterday. So how do you go and get a deep understanding of what this change is? Going to be. And how can it either affect every investment you've either made or will make in both a positive way where it could add extra margin or extra growth or extra value, or in a negative way where it creates vulnerabilities for a business that you maybe didn't anticipate before the inevitability of AI became so pronounced. And so it really forced us to kind of take a moment and stop. We looked at our portfolio, we started dealing even deeper with our partners to understand kind of what their ambitions were, what their needs were. And what we saw was that there were very few places where you can actually apply AI in a thoughtful way that didn't feel like either they were ineffective or rip offs or more happy talk solutions. And so we were looking for real, tangible solutions for our portfolio and for our partners. And so obviously a lot, as somebody who is incredibly well respected in the US investing community, but particularly in AI with the way he's been so far ahead of a lot of these companies and seeing and investing in and seeing the trends, understanding them, seeding some of the best entrepreneurs in America. And so we were having a conversation, I shared with Elad some of the frustration that we felt at not finding great solution providers for our portfolio. Also my partner Luis had been in the Middle east the week earlier dealing with some of our partners going through their AI aspirations and roadmaps and they were having a very similar frustration. And so we were sharing the learnings with a lot and a lot in the way he does says, well, let's start a company to do it. And we said that sounds great. And so that we really got to work, we pulled in our friend Eric Wu as well. And the four of us really set out to try and build something and define what it could be. And the goal was really how do you create almost a frontier AI implementation company where you can work with top clients in the most impactful institutions and companies in the world, help them identify what the best use cases can be, where they can apply AI either to make their companies more efficient, or where they can use AI to create more productivity and growth out of their revenue generating opportunities. And then what we do is we work on scoping what the capabilities are, we can build the technical solutions, we can implement the technical solutions, and then we can keep updating those technical solutions as the base models change as well. So much with AI right now is what we're seeing is that the change that's happening is so rapid that if you don't have a dynamic product and you're not constantly up to date on what's possible, then it's very, very possible. You'll either do something that will be obsolete very, very quickly and you have to understand both the trends and the capabilities and have the right team available to do that. So what we saw in Silicon Valley is that they're amazing at solving problems. They're not always the best at identifying which problems to solve. And we thought that Brainco could be a great, a great way to build the bridge between some of the top problems that can be solved in AI and a great team that can provide solutions.
- [16:06]
Elad
Yeah, and Branco has a sort of common platform underlying it where there's a common set of things that are provided to every customer and really is a piece of infrastructure that's used. And then there are some incremental things that can be built on top to help with specific use cases that can then be cross sold into different verticals. And so the idea is to basically do both the platform side and then a subset of apps that are resold over and over to the world's biggest institutions. The company I feel actually had a few almost like founding moments. There was sort of the four of us helping to get it up and running initially. And then a really key moment was Dan and Mercia joined and really became part of the founding team. And then later Clemens has come on as the CEO of the company. And so there have been multiple key parties really involved in terms of setting this up and driving it and making it what it is so far.
- [16:50]
Sarah Goa
What do you think created the gap? Given there's this much business motivation to increase margins or drive growth and even belief that AI is going to be part of the solution. And there's lots of existing vendors out there that will do involved implementation projects with large companies. Why didn't get filled?
- [17:13]
Elad
It's really just foundation thing. It really is a platform company that and then it builds stuff on top of it. So I think that's an important piece of sort of both differentiation, but also the ability for one organization to benefit across multiple different aspects of that organization.
- [17:28]
Sarah Goa
And how did you pick a set of use cases or what informed the platform itself?
- [17:33]
Jared Kushner
But I'll say Sarah, to your last question, and we'll get to that, is that what I saw working with Thrive was that there was some of the best technologists often are building things. But it takes a while for big corporations to want to take risks on emerging technologies. And what I saw when I was in government, I would deal with the top CEOs or leaders in the world. And most of them spend a lot of their time just keeping their job or managing their very complex large businesses. And so a lot of them are hearing about AI and a lot of the things that AI is capable of, but they don't necessarily have the right people around them or access to top technologies in order to implement it into their business. So that was really kind of the problem we were trying to solve, is that a lot of the people who have the best sandboxes to deploy AI often don't have access to the best talent. And that was really where we thought we could create differentiation. And so far I've proven that. But some of the use cases. Do you want to start with some of these cases? Sure. So we have a wide range of use cases that have come either through our portfolio or some of our partnerships to date. And quite frankly, the more other of our partners see the capabilities we have, the more they're now starting to use it for their portfolio. So we're constrained really by the talent we can hire and the time we have in healthcare. We're working on how to improve patient experience and throughput time and data to lower cost and also give better experience. We've been working in the hospitality space to figure out how to work through some of the clusters that come through reservations to make sure that people are able to do bookings in a much more efficient way. We're doing it in the insurance space where we have some very, very good use cases to help claims management go much faster and be more efficient in that regard. And one that I'm actually really quite excited about, having had a background in real estate, as you're working on something in construction permitting, which is we found a government that has incredibly digitized records and was willing to, after some time and trust, willing to kind of really let our team go to work in there. And what we saw was they had a process that was over 40 steps. And we thought in the beginning when we were doing it, that if we could get the AI to be able to determine to create with over 90% efficiency on one of the steps, we thought that would be a big success. And what we saw is like, you take a construction permit, you make this big application, you submit it, usually you have to pay big consultants, then it takes three, four months to get your approval with AI to take three minutes. And so we really attacked this problem. We didn't necessarily realize at the time we were doing a little more of a research project than we anticipated, but now we've been able to accomplish two things. Number one, the client is now going to reduce the amount of steps that they have in their process to get the permit right. Because by building all of the processes to deploy the AI, they realized that the process that had been designed by humans was not necessarily efficient. They could reduce over 10 steps in the process through that time. The second thing was, is that as the different updates came through the models, one of the issues we had was how do you convert the spatial plans that were being submitted into the right ways for the AI to then read it and score it? And that actually changed when one of the updates came in one of the models. So as we've been able to evolve the product, we found that we're now over on, I think it's over, like 35 steps, over 90% accuracy on all 35 steps, which has become really, really satisfying for us. And so I think this will save, obviously, the government and their customers a ton of time and money. It gets rid of a lot of the consultants who are just charging fees to do busy work. And quite frankly, it's the type of task that can be automated, which I think will create a lot of economic value and also allow the developers to build faster. It means they pay taxes faster. And from the government's perspective, it also gets rid of graft and corruption, because it is one of these things where you're relying on a lot of human judgment in a very opaque way that quite frankly, shouldn't be that way. If this technology can do what we're seeing that it has the ability to.
- [21:28]
Sarah Goa
Do, that's such a great use case. And it sounds like you're serving businesses, you're serving governments. And also assuming it's not. Well, I won't assume, but if it's not the US Government, then you're also serving globally.
- [21:38]
Jared Kushner
Yes, yes.
- [21:40]
Elad
Some of these customers are some of the world's largest and most important institutions. And so one of the things I was struck by in terms of working with this company on Brainco is there was a very strong prove it to us sort of mentality going to end a lot of these, A lot of these customers. And the team really had to show up, show technical excellence, show value, et cetera, before really converting them into a customer. And so initially we were doing a lot of things at risk just to be able to prove that, yes, we have the technical tops and capabilities. And it really is some of the world's best engineers from all the top institutions that we know in Silicon Valley helping to implement and facilitate these really important, valuable use cases for them. So I think that was a really key part of it is just these were kind of tough deals because to your point earlier, normally with a startup you start with SMB and then you go mid market and then eventually seven years later you have enterprises. And this was, let's just jump seven years ahead and go to the world's biggest enterprises. But then it became a very strong, okay, show us you can really do this well.
- [22:32]
Jared Kushner
And one thing I give a lot of credit for a lot of things in structuring the business and helping us keep refining kind of what the optimal products were to build and how to go forward with it. But we were able to get some very large institutions to give us a chance initially to try and scope out and see if we can create solutions for them. But Elon's ability to recruit top talent and what him, Eric, Luis, Dan, Mircea and the team have been able to do has been really incredible. So now it's over 40 people growing very rapidly and we find that it's just there's so many real life cases where you can apply AI. And quite frankly, from my perspective in Affinity, we're usually writing much larger checks in later stage companies. But was appealing to me about this, was that with this technology transformation, if you have the ability to work with top talent and really be on the cutting edge of seeing how the AI is advancing, how it's being applied, understanding real use cases, I felt like that was a critical perspective to develop for being an investor today in this changing world.
- [23:32]
Sarah Goa
That resonates. And then especially if you actually think it can change the growth or margin profile of a business, what is, I.
- [23:39]
Jared Kushner
Mean, we're seeing it, you know, real ways in different companies that we're implementing.
- [23:43]
Sarah Goa
In that it is then should be, you know, also a, a weapon for, you know, the portfolio at least the expertise.
- [23:49]
Jared Kushner
Yeah.
- [23:49]
Sarah Goa
What do you think the biggest challenge for the company going forward is?
- [23:52]
Jared Kushner
It's very early. I think it's right now it's just continuing to keep up with the demand of projects that we have, make sure that we're focused on the right projects and not the wrong projects and make sure we can continue to attract the right amount of talent to not dilute ourselves, to keep up with the fast paced of demand that we have. So I think the team's done a great job of keeping a high bar on talent and making sure we just continue to work with great customers. So far in some of our early customers, they've been really expanding the scope that they've been asking the team to do because they're realizing what a great capability it is. And so that's been very gratifying to see. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity to go much bigger with some of our existing customers because they have multiple companies or multiple divisions and word's starting to get out as they achieve success that these are the guys who can apply AI in a very, very thoughtful and cost beneficial way.
- [24:47]
Sarah Goa
What makes somebody a good customer? Like the right type of early customer for you?
- [24:51]
Jared Kushner
I would start with do they have a complex problem that we think there's a lot of efficiency to be created by applying AI? Number two is do they have the right data that we can use in order to create the solution? Number three is, do they have the right command and control structure in the company where people are willing to buy into it? Because you could have one or two, but if you have a lot of resistance in the ranks or in leadership and they're not willing to kind of force people to try, there can be a lot of resistance because people are afraid of change. Change is like heaven. Everyone wants to go there, but nobody wants to die. And what we found is that some of the people who were our most are most resistant initially. Once they see what this can do for them and how much better it's making them at their job, they're actually becoming our biggest champions. And so that's been very gratifying to see in some of the customers so far.
- [25:43]
Elad
Yeah. The biggest obstacle to AI implementation in enterprises tends to be people, processes, organizational redesign. It has less to do with the technology sometimes than rejiggering things. So the technology can actually be placed into the workflow or placed into the organization. But I agree with Jared that it seems like there's a lot of interest and a lot of demand for people wanting to work with us. We want to make sure that the platform side of it actually fits in terms of what we're doing. And then the focus has really been can we work with the world's biggest and most important institutions versus every smaller company that's kind of interested in doing something? So it's trying to select for sort of the giants who are driving the world forward in different ways.
- [26:20]
Jared Kushner
We started this in January of 24, and so it's been amazing to see since then. You know, obviously it took some time to get going and to really, you know, finalize the idea, but it's been amazing since then to see how much even the underlying technology has changed. And. But I think our central premise has remained pretty, pretty consistent since then.
- [26:39]
Sarah Goa
One of the ways you got involved in AI even earlier was, you know, from like a policy lens. Right. I guess what has been most interesting to you on that front or in sort of the geopolitical perspective of how, let's say like energy and our relations with Middle Eastern countries play into like the future of AI?
- [26:59]
Jared Kushner
Yeah, so. So from a policy perspective, when we were, when I was in the White House the first time under President Trump, this was part of the efforts that, that he was saying he wanted to focus on. And at his direction, actually, I reached out to TSM and was in touch with them then to push them to try and start doing some production of their fabs in the US and we pushed them to Arizona, which I think is now the foundation of what hopefully will be a much bigger deployment. That's obviously a very critical element. I think from a policy perspective, the way that President Trump has put out his policy so far, I think David Sacks done a fabulous job. I think their plan is the right plan. We need to do two main things, which is one is make sure we have all the tools to compete, which is really accelerate our ability to build energy in the U.S. i think that'll be really, really bad if we're constrained on that. And I think they've taken a lot of steps to do that. It's not like a switch you can flick, so it takes time, but you need to obviously make the permitting process a lot better. And I think in America, our private sector is so dynamic that the capital formation will occur to help us build all the energy in the data centers that we need. I think the government could help do that. So we need to create the environment.
- [28:10]
Sarah Goa
We need the seven year cycle for nuclear to get 90% more efficient.
- [28:14]
Elad
Do you think it's nuclear? Do you think it's something else? What do you think from an energy perspective are the areas that need to move fastest? And I'm guessing it's a mix of everything. But are there things that stand out the most? That.
- [28:22]
Jared Kushner
So the thing I saw actually, and this was in one of the investments I was looking at about two years ago, we ended up not doing it. It was a battery company here in the US but there was one graph that my team showed me that actually made me quite optimistic, which was that in the US we have about 1.1 300 gigawatts of energy. But what they showed me is that there's about 2,000 gigawatts of energy. That was waiting for permits from the FERC which was quite actually optimistic because it shows that the US has a lot of private sector interest. We just need the government to get out of the way and to allow us to do what we want to do. And so it's complex. But I think that what we saw under the last four years under the Biden administration was that it was just kind of a way war on business, an over regulated environment. And they said some of the right things, but there was no effort towards trying to kind of relieve that bottleneck. And so now I know there's a very intense effort to relieve that bottleneck and to try to stimulate the growth of energy. I think the second part, which also is on the AI roadmap that President Trump put out, was really to figure out how can you just stimulate as much innovation as possible. And you see the regulation they put on in Europe and that's why there's really not a whole lot happening in Europe on the AI front right now, which isn't necessarily bad for America. But I think the goal is to not over regulate before we kind of know what to regulate. I think if you're a regulator or if you're a politician, you see this coming, you want to focus on what are the worst case scenarios and then think about how you regulate because that's kind of all you do. I think right now we can stimulate trying to bring the best talent to the US in order to have them focusing on this problem here where I think everyone does want to be innovating and number two is creating the most dynamic environments that we can do the most amount of innovation in AI as possible so that we can be the global leader and usher this technology into the world under the guise of US values.
- [30:03]
Sarah Goa
It's been a surprise to me how much of an emergent player certain Middle Eastern countries have been within AI as both an energy and potential energy and capital provider. What's your take on this?
- [30:14]
Jared Kushner
So they've been focused on this for a while. I remember I was over in UAE in 2018, we were working on the Abraham Accords and trying to make progress. And Sheikh Taknun, who's a good friend of mine, said I won't meet you on this topic unless you stay in after and see what I'm doing AI And I said look, I don't really have time with this, but he made me see after and I was quite impressed. I mean I didn't think much of it after. And I know in Saudi MBS been very focused and uae, his brother mdz also very focused and In Qatar, also the emir and the Prime Minister, Sheikh Mohammed, incredibly, incredibly focused on AI. And they all have different styles.
- [30:50]
Elad
Why is that, by the way? Like, why do they all get interested in it, especially in that era?
- [30:53]
Jared Kushner
I think they all talk to each other a lot and I think that there's definitely competition, but I think they all have their unique advantages and different ways that they could play it. Like, Saudi has a much bigger domestic market. I think UAE obviously wants to be a big investor in it and I think they want to implement it in their country as well. All three want to implement it in their country. But what we've been doing is understanding what their different ambitions are and we've been connecting them to a lot of the leading USAI companies, obviously hoping that they do partnerships and invest in and create with US Companies over Asian companies, which we think would be much better for the US and where we have, I think, you know, great capabilities. But what they also have is tremendous sandbox in the sense that they have companies, they have governments, they have data, and they're able to really be a great partner to a lot of these AI companies in order to create tools, applications and even companies that you can build off of what they're capable of doing. So I actually think they're going to become a very significant, not just investor, but also partner in creating AI tools and capabilities that can then go from there to the rest of the world.
- [31:59]
Sarah Goa
You have an amazing set of relationships, but I think it comes from an even more impressive stint in diplomacy without prior experience. Well, I'll say that you described it as like a, you know, intense PhD, both the region and also geopolitics. Tell us about the experience of learning. Well, first of all, maybe the ambition of what you were tasked with doing in the Middle east and then the learning experience of trying to be effective and eventually the Abraham Accords and such.
- [32:27]
Jared Kushner
Sure. So I got tasked with the Middle East, I think almost by accident. And the way it kind of came about was I'd worked very hard on my father in law's campaign in 2016. He had almost a family campaign because people were told that if you worked for Donald Trump, you would never get a job in politics again. So the campaign was going. He said, try this work on this, work on this. Next thing I knew, I was running a lot of the aspects of his campaign and my wife and I were in New Jersey for a weekend after he won. He said, would you like to join us? Please come join me in Washington. I think his first night that he ever slept in Washington was in the White House. So he wasn't a governor, he wasn't a mayor. He. He didn't really have experience there. But my wife worked with him in his company, so I'd run a family business, and I obviously worked him closely on the campaign. And so he wanted people with him who he could trust. So we were thinking about it. It would have been a big life change for us. And I got a call that weekend from the PR person for my family's real estate company who said, I got a call from the New York Times. They said, you're going to Washington and you're going to be working on Middle east peace. And I said, well, that's not true. I said, we haven't made a decision yet. And I said, well, I called back, said, well, their source is Donald Trump, and he was doing an interview with them. And he said, of course, Jared's coming to Washington and he's going to work on Middle east peace. So that was kind of how I got the job, working on Middle East. And the next day, on the front page of the New York Times, there were stories, who's Jared Kushner? What does he know about Middle East? And the answer was, nothing. Nobody knew me there. But if that's what my father in law asked me to do, I went about it trying to figure out what was possible. So I really spent probably the first six months to a year asking questions and asking people some version of, what would you do if you were us? What do you think are the solutions? I've always learned in business, it's sometimes better to study all the things that have failed and understand why they failed. And you learn a lot from that versus listening to the professionals and the experts. I found in Washington. It was amusing that only in Washington you could fail at something for a decade or two and then be considered an expert on what to do about it. So I started working on it. The goal was really to figure out, how do you get through some of the conflicts and bring people together. At the time, we had isis, had a caliphate the size of Ohio. They were beheading journalists. They were overruling about 8 million people. So that was a big problem. Obama had just done the Iran deal, signed the jcpoa, and in the Gulf felt very betrayed because they said Obama went behind our back and went to Persia. And they were very surprised by that. So they actually told me they were starting to learn Chinese and push their alliance towards China because they thought the US Was no longer a reliable partner. That was basically what we inherited. And so perhaps my father in law thought it couldn't get any worse, which is why he told me to work on it. But what I basically did was I went around, asked questions and I just thought I built a lot of trust by trying to build collaborative ideas. And what was interesting about my diplomacy was that I really tried to get everyone focused on what are the defined end states. And if we could agree on the end state, we're not sitting across from the table, from each other, we're actually sitting on the same side of the table trying to accomplish a shared goal. And then we would keep iterating on how to get there. And I always joke with the Abraham Accords that we were successful on Plan C, but only because we went through the Alphabet three times and failed at every letter along the way. But every time we failed, we just never gave up. We were very determined. We knew the goal was virtuous, we knew it was important when you had.
- [35:54]
Sarah Goa
A velocity of improvement that wasn't 10 years of doing the same thing repeatedly and failing.
- [35:58]
Jared Kushner
Yeah, you know what? It was interesting too. I see this in politics, where people are afraid to take on hard things. Right? You guys are in Silicon Valley where everyone who comes into your office every day is saying, we are going to take on this impossible task. And that's celebrated. And if you fail doing it, then you start another company. That's a culture that's celebrated in politics. Everyone's afraid to take on hard things because they know that there's a high probability of failure. And so as a result, they don't try. And so it was interesting. I mean, you look at all the articles, if you go back at how much I was criticized by everyone for trying to take on these hard problems, all the experts were saying I was doing it not in the way that they did. I said, why would I do it the way you did it? You failed. If I'm going to fail at a hard problem, at least let me fail in an original way.
- [36:42]
Sarah Goa
New data.
- [36:43]
Jared Kushner
And so that was kind of. It was almost bringing like a first principles approach to diplomacy. And a lot of it had to do with just building relationships and building trust.
- [36:52]
Elad
Where was the conventional wisdom most strong about the Middle least?
- [36:54]
Jared Kushner
I mean, it started by saying that you cannot get the Arabs together with Israel until you solve the Palestinian issue. And I had an assessment of that issue which felt like it was a riddle designed not to be solved. And I felt like what we can do is instead of getting people to look backwards, we can get them to look forwards, and that joint interests are very, very critical. So the joint interests at the time were, number one, security people were very afraid of Iran. So Iran in some ways drove people together, and I think they continue to drive people together by being a menace to all sides. And then, number two was, what are the benefits you can get? We talk about AI and technology. I think that the match of Israel's burgeoning AI and technology scene and the aspirations and the AI burgeoning scene in the Gulf, there's a lot of desire to be together. And I think that those aspirations actually have driven a lot of the shift that we've seen.
- [37:50]
Elad
I think a lot of people aren't aware of how many different treaties or peace treaties came out of this. Do you mind just quickly kind of enumerating those? Because I think it's quite striking.
- [37:56]
Jared Kushner
So the first one was Israel, uae, which was. It took me three and a half years to do it, which was really incredible. And obviously, you know, I give President Trump a ton of credit because, number one, he believed in it the whole time, and he was the one. Even when I was getting criticized and he was getting criticized for having me there, he'd always call me and say, hey, they're saying this. What do you think? And I would say, no, this is why I'm doing it. And he'd say, well, that makes sense. Sense to me, so keep going. And so he really believed in the vision and pushed forward with it, which was critical. And you've seen even now. But that's really who trained me. Right. His whole view was we should go to the pragmatic form as to what people are actually fighting about, and let's come up with the best solution. And a lot of these outcomes are arbitrary because they're negotiated in that regard. So you have to find ways for people to move forward and be together. And so we got UAE and Israel came together for the first one. Then after that, we were able to get Bahrain to join the Abraham Accords. Then we got Sudan, which now, unfortunately, has gone backwards, but they're still technically a signatory to the Abraham Accords. And then we got Morocco to join as well. We also got a deal with Serbia and Kosovo, where Kosovo wanted to join the Abraham Accords as well. And then at the end, the final agreement we were able to get, and this is all from August 2020 up until the last deal was January 6, 2021, we got the GCC dispute solved, which was between Qatar with Saudi, UAE, Egypt and Bahrain. And that was a real tough one. We Got that one resolved, which I thought would have paved the way for Saudi to then join the Abraham Accords, which would have led to Indonesia and Pakistan, all the others. So we still have a long list. And right now, President Trump is very focused on the next phase of getting more countries to join the Abraham Accords. And Ambassador Steve Wyckoff is doing an amazing job leading that effort. And I think that there's a long list of people who will want to join that once the current issues with Gaza are resolved, which hopefully will be very soon.
- [39:55]
Elad
So one analysis that I saw the claim was that one of the reasons that Hamas attacked Israel on October 7 was in part due to the fact that Israel and Saudi were getting increasingly close to a peace deal. And it was a way to kind of disrupt that process. And in general, Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, are to some extent proxies for Iran in terms of funding and arms and other things. How do you think that all evolves or what do you think happens from Middle Eastern peace process going forward? What do you think happens in Gaza? Is there anything you can talk about there?
- [40:23]
Jared Kushner
Yeah. So when President Trump left in 2021, a deal with Saudi could have been done in three to six months. And that was basically what I passed over to the previous administration during the transition. They chose to go 180 from all the different policies that President Trump had simply because they were his policies. But I think that we basically inherited a Middle east that was a disaster and left it pretty stable and with a lot of momentum. It took them two years to then say, wait, maybe we should focus on the Saudi thing. And what got them to focus on it was that China ended up getting involved to negotiate a deal between Saudi Arabia and the Houthis to stop some of that issue in Yemen. And so when Saudi got involved, when China got involved, the US Said, oh, we don't want to be outdone. So then they ran over and finally started focusing on this issue, which I think would be a historic issue, to really resolve this tension between Israel and Saudi and then get full normalization, which I think is much better for lifting the region. So they were doing that very publicly. And I think that there definitely was a desire on their part to stop it. But what's happened since October, by that.
- [41:28]
Elad
Part you mean Hamas or Iran?
- [41:31]
Jared Kushner
Both, I think, from Iran and Hamas's desire to stop that normalization, because that normalization means that the division that Iran has used in order to justify their existence no longer is justified. Right. So what does Iran use? Their. They Call their army the Quds Force. Quds is Jerusalem. They have the Al Aqsa Brigade for the Al Aqsa Mosque. And they use this notion that Israel is trying to destroy the mosque or that they're fighting to liberate Jerusalem. Jerusalem. When the reality is is Israel will let any Muslim or Arab who wants to come there come as long as they want to come peacefully. So they almost need this cause to stay out there in order to justify their existence as a revolutionary government. So when you look at where we are now after October 7, Israel's now had again. It's been at huge cost, you know, in all regards. But Hezbollah is basically decapitated. Iran is now weaker than they've ever been. Right. With their nuclear program set back a long way. The Houthis in Yemen have been having a great month, and Hamas and Gaza is basically destroyed. And so now they have an opportunity to convert those military victories into political victories. But what you have to do is find a resolution in Gaza, if you're able to find a satisfactory resolution there. I mean, Israel obviously would love to get their hostages back. I think that's a critical, critical element. And then once you do that, and you want to find a humanitarian way to make sure the population there of civilians is not negatively impacted by the horrific leadership that Hamas has brought on and the conflict that's ensued, then I think you can get to a place where the full normalization happens. With Saudi and Israel, I think you really are able to then just get everyone doing business, getting to know each other. If you look at what's happening now in Syria and Lebanon, both have new leadership. Hezbollah is destroyed. By Hezbollah being destroyed, that meant that Syria is looking to be much more stable, Lebanon is looking to much more stable. And with the Iranian influence out of there, it looks like Israel's a real chance to make stability there as well. I know Ambassador Barrack has been working very hard on that, Under Secretary Rubio and President Trump's direction. So I actually think the board could be amazingly positive. But we need to get the Gaza issue resolved. And I know President Trump and Steve Wyckoff are working incredibly hard on that, and I do believe that they will be successful, and then big progress will be made soon thereafter.
- [43:52]
Sarah Goa
Some of the companies that you are invested in now have very surprising business relationships and backers. And I feel like through brokering some of these relationships between Arabs and Israelis, for example, you're really proving the point that people can build, you know, normal relations and effective business relations in ways people wouldn't have believed before. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [44:16]
Jared Kushner
That was one of the things that I've actually been most excited about, but also most cautious about in pursuing the investment. So a lot of my investment investors come from the Middle east, from the Gulf countries, but I really wanted to show them the good experiences that they could have investing in Israel. And the criteria we've used for that is number one to only be be with the blues chip partners. And our two investments in Israel have both performed very well, but have also been with top tier firms. One of the ones we got the most scrutiny on was we invested in a company called Phoenix holdings, which is the number one financial institution in Israel. They're a monster company. They manage about 160 billion. We became their largest shareholder, but we invested in July of last year, which is right before the war in the north with Hezbollah basically started. And I remember at the time we made the decision, we had very intense discussions in our investment committee because they said, look, there's about to be a war in the country, which is what we kind of thought was going to happen and said, how do we explain this to the investors if it goes wrong? And I said, well, number one, it's not a bad thing to have them more vested in the economy of Israel now. But I feel like the pricing that we were able to get at the time was very, very advantageous given what was possible. So we invested then at about $37 a share. Today the stock's almost $120 a share because we needed a approval from the regulator. We bought 4.9% then and then another 4.9% later. So we're able to use better leverage because the shares went up quite a bit. And so it's been almost a nine times return on the investment in just over a year so far, which has been quite strong. So obviously my investors from the Middle east are now looking at Israel and they're saying, wait a minute, maybe there's a benefit to having the these wars done. And they're seeing a good example there. And so that's been very, very satisfying to be able to explain to them the benefits of being together and the positive results that can come from being invested together. The next phase of that is Phoenix, which is a monster company, is now looking at investments in Saudi Arabia, investments in UAE and basically thinking how can they start deploying their huge amounts of capital into infrastructure projects in the region next to it, which again is just further going to bring people together. They have a great retirement savings program. How can they take that retirement savings program over to some of the Gulf countries as well? So it's been very interesting to foster some of these connections together. And then when you get an Arab and Israeli together and they start talking about a business opportunity, they forget about everything else. And then they realize that there's a lot of similarities. And you go in the Middle east, right before the 1940s, for a thousand years, the Jews and the Muslims lived basically side by side in the region. And I think through business and through building these relationships, you find ways to bring people back together. So again, that's one of the positive things when in my business I try to work with founders I love, on companies I'm excited about and on missions that I think could be productive. And I find with deals like this, it's just extra rewarding to be able to work with great people and then to help build relationships and perspective and knowledge for both sides that probably wouldn't have existed otherwise.
- [47:14]
Sarah Goa
It's been a wide ranging conversation. Can I ask a really micro question? Sure. You and Ivanka have built this incredible partnership across business and politics and also raising a family together. I look at this with great interest given I, you know, I feel I am part of two partnerships, mine at conviction professionally, and then also me and my husband Pat. How have you done that? Like, what's the framework for it?
- [47:35]
Jared Kushner
So it's funny, a lot of people always try to give advice on marriage, but the, the one that I always felt was the most important is marry the right person. And so I'm very, very blessed that I married an incredible person. Ivanka has been a great partner to me in all the different phases of our life. We obviously had our New York phase, which we were building our businesses, we were starting our family, and then we had the Washington phase, which was a lot more, you know, just survival every day. And she was supporting me with my efforts, I was supporting her with her efforts. But constantly under attack, investors, investigations. I mean, now you're seeing all this stuff about how these Russian investigations were totally made up. Well, I spent 33 hours doing congressional subpoenas, testimony, special counsel, grand jury testimony. I mean, those were very intense times. And Ivanka was an amazing partner and support to me in my weakest times there. When we left Washington, the focus for me was now to start a new business. We moved down to Florida and Ivanka said that. But after so many years of being public and so many years of either building a business or doing her policy work, which helped a lot of people through her different efforts. She wanted to focus on being a mother and really raising our family. And she's done an incredible job doing that over the last years. I think our kids are all thriving, really, thanks to her amazing job as a mother and then my business. She's been a great partner and so she's been making investments. She's been helping us, us a lot on some of our early stage investments that we make in AI and other areas. And she has a very good track record of doing those investments and a lot's helped her with some connections and they've worked together on some great things. But yeah, she's just been an amazing partner, Very, very special person and I'm very, very lucky to have her as my wife.
- [49:18]
Elad
So you made that transition from the private sector to the public sector. Obviously had a really big impact while you were there. Right now, there's a lot of different people that I know in Silicon Valley who are moving out to help with different aspects of government in a way that I haven't seen people show up before. And these are really exceptional people who I think have accomplished a lot in their careers over time in tech, and now they're coming in and helping out in government. What should a private sector person expect when they get to D.C. it's a.
- [49:40]
Jared Kushner
Completely different world and I think you have to understand that it's a different system design. But if you spend the time to understand the system, there's tremendous amounts of positive things that could be accomplished from doing it. And when I left government, I'd say the primary reason why I wrote my book was because. Because I wanted to encourage people from the private sector to then go and serve in government. And one of the things I've been so satisfied by seeing in Trump's second term is that with the work that Elon started with Doge, and with the great work of the PPO group, the people that they're hiring now at third and fourth levels into the government are better than the people who are willing to come work for us at the top levels in the first administration. So President Trump has an amazing cabinet, amazing, amazing team, incredible bench of talent. And what we're seeing with Doge and how it still persisted is that there's a great group of people from the private sector who are there every day renegotiating contracts. I speak to them, they say, honestly, they've never had such easy negotiations in their life and they're saving a billion here, a billion there, and there's so much low hanging fruit there. It's just a Place where either hasn't had a president who's willing to empower people to go and make deals and let them loose to try and change things. And I think the more that people from the private sector go in, number one, they'll learn how the government works. And the government obviously is a massive organization that has big impact on all of our lives in so many different ways. But I think people are finding that the differences that they can have will be quite, quite, quite huge. I mean, Joe Gabbia just got announced as the chief design officer for the US I know Antonio Gracias has done amazing work helping figure out how to get make sure we're only paying Social Security. I think he saved over 10 billion a year so far from that. And I think that all these guys are coming away with the experience where they're feeling enriched from the contributions they've been able to make to a country that's done so much for them that enables these platforms that they want to build. But I think it's just a great place and I think it's a great opportunity for people to go in, especially during this administration, because they'll be allowed to do things and make big change. And I think the more we do that, I hope that we have more people do it. Like the founding fathers kind of design, where you leave your farm, you go do your service and you go back to your farm. I think here maybe it's you leave your office, you do your service, you go back to your office. But I think that it's very, very important to have private sector people going into government doing tours of duty versus just having a permanent political class, which I think is not necessarily great for the long term interests of America.
- [52:07]
Elad
Yeah, it used to be an embedded part of the business community to say that there's enormous both patriotism in value in terms of going in and sort of doing a term in a government or sort of helping out in different ways along those lines. I guess often people are motivated by those altruistic reasons and then there's almost like the selfish reasons to do it. What do you think are some of the selfish reasons? You're a 25 year old engineer and you have a great offer from an OpenAI or another major sort of tech company. Why should you go into government instead right now?
- [52:34]
Jared Kushner
So I think there's like a quote that's attributed to Einstein. He gets a lot of quotes. I don't know if he said them all or not. Which is, is once your mind expands, it never returns to its original Size. And I think that it goes to what we were saying initially about how when you're in business and you're looking at things with a different lens, sometimes you see different opportunities or different solutions. I think going into government, number one, if you go there, you'll definitely make a contribution and you'll feel good about the fact that things are different in the world because of you. You'll know that whether you get recognition or not for that doesn't matter. But I think that I look at my experience, right? Again, it was four very, very hard years. I mean, it cost me millions of dollars in legal fees. It was stressful. I dealt with some unbelievably.
- [53:17]
Elad
It was actually one of the things that shocked me as I got to know you and Ivanka was a degree to which you were vilified in the press, and then you'd meet both of you in person. And when I've asked, because before we started working on Branco together, I actually asked around different people. I was like, just in case, is there anything there? Is it? Because there was so much negativity, and everybody basically said, you're a mensch. You know, good person, tries to help whenever he can, et cetera. Same with Ivanka. And as I got to know you, I'm like, oh, my God. These people are super smart. They're clear thinkers. They're always trying to do the right thing, and yet they got completely vilified. And so I always thought that was almost like a travesty in terms of how those things can happen.
- [53:52]
Jared Kushner
We were very, very fortunate to have the opportunity to make the impact. And the way I would say to Ivanka at the time is that every opportunity in life has a cost. And if this is the cost of what we have to bear, it's a small cost relative to the opportunity we have to make an impact. Now, I kind of just accepted that that was the deal. And I think now the fact that people recognize the work a lot more is obviously an extra benefit, because I think that we can use it to hopefully inspire more people to come in and do the work. But, yeah, it was a very interesting time in our country and a very interesting time to serve. But I think that in some ways, like I was talking with my brother about this, how almost because it was so unpopular to be in the government at that time, we weren't spending time doing things other than working. So we just put our heads down. We just got the work done. We weren't being invited to the party. So our view was like, well, let's just spend our time working. And then I think that's ultimately what led to a lot of the successes we had was just the maniacal focus on the task at hand. We never took for granted how lucky we were to have the opportunity to serve and to make an impact and, and we relished it every day and every day we woke up. I think one of the things that made us successful there was every day we viewed it and said, it's sand through an hourglass. At some point it's going to be over. And how can we use every minute to make as much impact as possible? And I would say the benefits we got from it was we made some incredible, incredible friends. We learned a lot about our country, we learned a lot about the world, we made incredible contacts around the world and I think we have have a much more refined understanding for how the world actually works. And then it's been fun for me to apply that to the business world, which has only brought me closer with the relationships I've built through that process and allowed me to kind of find ways to create almost the private sector solution that I wish that I had when I was in government in order to hopefully effectuate a lot of the positive missions that I thought were important doing from the government side.
- [55:44]
Elad
So I guess to finish off the 25 year old engineer point is there's obviously the altruistic impact on the world. I guess there are certain things they can learn along the way or how else do you think about the benefits of going into government?
- [55:54]
Jared Kushner
Right now you'll learn a ton. You'll meet a lot of interesting people from different backgrounds and you will definitely leave with a different perspective on appreciation for our country, appreciation for what's possible. And I think you'll learn a lot along the way. So I view it almost like it's a two year business school sprint stint where you go in, you're obviously leaving behind a lucrative career, but you're going to leave hopefully in a better place than where you found and you'll feel good about the fact that you're doing it as well. So. And you can make a big impact.
- [56:25]
Elad
So one of the ways that you've described to me, the kind of role that you like to play is almost like a chairman style role in terms of businesses you get involved with, in terms of things you help build, in terms of different dynamics of what you do in general. Could you extrapolate or explain what that means and how you've been doing that?
- [56:39]
Jared Kushner
I been CEO before and I like operating things. But what I'm enjoying about this phase of being an investor in other companies is the ability to really spend your time on just the most critical things. Anyone who's been a CEO knows that there's mission critical things and then there's minutiae and there's things you have to do to kind of run a business. And a lot of this phase of my life I'm trying to design, how do you kind of spend your time with the people you want to be spending your time with on the best problems and doing the things that, that utilize your best skill sets in the best way? So I've really been enjoying that with different companies because I get to sit with incredible CEOs and I get to work with them on what are their big aspirations and how do I work through those problems. One example is we made a big investment in QXO with a guy, Brad Jacobs, and seeing the way that he's pursued his M and A strategy and then his changed transformation strategy, I mean, I'm learning a lot being a board member there and watching him and his incredible operating team do change management. Take a company that's operated one way for a while and then convince them to operate a different way to integrate technology, to integrate a different mindset. And so I find that by being in this role with a lot of different CEOs, I'm able to learn from the things that they do well and then take those learnings and bring them across and help other CEOs achieve at a higher level. And so right now I'm really enjoying that. And that's been been fun to do.
- [58:01]
Sarah Goa
Thanks for an amazing conversation, Jared.
- [58:03]
Jared Kushner
Thank you guys.
- [58:06]
Sarah Goa
Find us on Twitter nopriorspod. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you want to see our faces, follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. That way you get a new episode every week and sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode@no-priors.com.