Jason English (10:08)

Welcome back to very special episodes. I am Jason English. She is Dana Schwartz. Hey. Hey. He is Zarin Burnett.

Zarin Burnett (10:15)

Yo.

Jason English (10:16)

Usually on this show, we tell one incredible story, but today we're gonna do something a little different. And we're gonna talk about one incredible location and several stories that are hiding in plain sight. Dana, tell us about your trip to New York City.

Dana Schwartz (10:31)

I'm very excited for this episode. I love New York City. It's, you know, let me be the first to say, it's one of the greatest cities in the world. And I love secret history and stories. And so on this trip to New York City, I made it my mission to try to find locations that just seem ordinary, that a normal person might just walk on by but have full stories behind them. And so that was what was very exciting to me, is to find the places in the city where you might not even know important, fascinating, interesting history happened right there.

Jason English (11:05)

Well, I think since I read your first draft of this, it's made my walking around New York more interesting. And I don't even know. I'm just imagining the history that's happening at places. There might not even have been any. But the idea that look deeper into these mundane places and you might have a whole other world opened up.

Dana Schwartz (11:23)

Yeah, that's it. So should we go to New York?

Dana Schwartz (11:28)

There are more than 100 sculptures in New York's Central Park. Some are fictional characters, like Alice in Wonderland. Some, like the sculpture of Balto, the heroic sled dog, aren't even human. But plenty of the sculptures are honoring real living people, including a sculpture by John Quincy Adams, ward of William Shakespeare. Shakespeare. It's a statue Mid park at the southern end of the Mall, the head of an area known as the Literary Walk because of the number of statues of notable writers.

Greg Young (12:05)

In fact, there is this area called the Artist and Writers Walk. It's actually one of the most beautiful areas of Central park, especially in the fall with all the leaves. It's like a canopy of trees. And again, there were no statues in Central park before this one. And today, this gorgeous walk, which used to be a carriage path, you know, people in the Gilded Age would ride their carriage.

Dana Schwartz (12:30)

That's Greg Young. Greg is a historian and half of the duo behind the wildly successful Bowery Boys podcast, which explores hidden New York City history. Nothing about the Shakespeare sculpture in Central park seems particularly out of the ordinary. It's a nice bronze sculpture, a perfect backdrop for your picnic or Frisbee game. Its plinth is very tall. It's impossible to get at eye level. Maybe that's fitting. After all, William Shakespeare is arguably the greatest playwright in world history. He should be looking down at all the passersby, swirling the clinking ice in their matchas and arguing about whether they should try to get a reservation at Balthazar. Like I said, it's a nice statue, but there's something astonishing about it that you won't learn from its engraving or from the little information board nearby. That statue of William Shakespeare still standing today in Central park has a connection to one of the most notorious ones, murderers, in American history. Back in 1864, when the idea came about for a statue of William Shakespeare for the 300th anniversary of his birth, a committee put together a plan for raising the funds. Now, a statue in Central park obviously doesn't seem like a big deal, but as Greg explains, back then, it was actually a pretty big decision.

Greg Young (14:08)

Let me explain how, like, kind of shocking or just how stunning that even is as a story, because Central park isn't even completed yet, okay? And the original design of Central park was that it was not supposed to have any kind of ornamentation, whether it wasn't going to have statues. It was going to be a place where you could, like, sort of take your horse, ride around in your carriage, or walk around. And it wasn't supposed to have a lot of memorials to culture in it.

Dana Schwartz (14:36)

The fact that this statue got the go ahead just goes to show how prominent and powerful the committee of men advocating for it was. The committee was made of, well, the type of people you expect for this kind of thing. People who love public art and theater. Actors, directors, wealthy people, the literati. One of the men on that committee was a man named Edwin Booth, almost universally celebrated as the preeminent Shakespearean actor of his day. And Edwin had quite the theatrical pedigree. His father, Junius Brutus Booth, was the most famous Shakespearean actor of his day, who had moved from England to the United States and spent decades touring with his portrayals of Shakespeare's most famous characters. As a young man, Edwin had traveled alongside his father, absorbing the words of the Bard's poetry by osmosis before he eventually set out on his own, becoming a prominent and celebrated actor in his own right. Known for his signature role, Hamlet. The Booth Theater in New York City is still named for him today. And Edwin had become not only a critically acclaimed actor, but also a man of society with famous and connected friends. The type of person who serves on a committee to erect a statue of William Shakespeare in Central Park.

Greg Young (16:12)

William Shakespeare was actually really popular in the mid 19th century with all different classes. And in fact, I would even say that like the working class, a lot of immigrant communities, especially out in the west, really understood and connected to Shakespeare, which I find really heartening in a way because I think a lot of times it's seen as like highfalutin and hard to understand.

Dana Schwartz (16:38)

To raise money for the statue, there would be a one night only benefit performance of what else? A Shakespeare play. And to really bolster up interest, they would do something really special that night. For the first and only time, Edwin Booth would be performing alongside two of his brothers. His older brother Junius Brutus Jr. And his younger brother, John Wilkes. Yes, that John Wilkes Booth.

Greg Young (17:12)

You have to remember. I mean, you probably know this from American history, but John Wilkes Booth is an actor, right? He was a part of the crew of the American Cousin, you know, on that night where Lincoln was assassinated. But not only was he an actor, he was like one of the most famous actors. He and his brother and his father, Junius.

Dana Schwartz (17:35)

The play they decided to put on was Julius Caesar. I know what you're thinking, but no, John Wilkes did not play the role of the man who assassinates a tyrant. Brutus was actually played by Edwin, who it really should be noted, was the far better actor compared to John Wilkes. Although John was notably handsome. John Wilkes played Mark Antony. The show was a rousing success.

Greg Young (18:08)

They were such a prominent family and this statue was actually seen as something very civic that they were really going to be a part of building this aspect of New York. No one's thinking of Central park at this time as being what it is today. So the fact that they're responsible for this is very significant. And so they end up, it's like a fundraiser. They appear, they do Julius Caesar. It's the three brothers, John Wilkes, Edwin and Junius. And they perform on the stage of Edwin's theater to raise money for this particular statue. And it is one of the biggest shows, like New York has some big shows, you know, whatever. You've got like Lady Gaga, five nights at whatever Barkley center. You've got the Beatles, you've got Simon and Garfunkel. This is really like a top 10 type of sellout show. And it's like Julius Caesar, right? We've all seen this. It would not be the show I would have selected as being one of the greatest of all time, but it drew so many people. They were able to immediately raise money for the construction of the statue.

Dana Schwartz (19:15)

The three brothers, for the price of one performance ended up raising $4,000, or about $80,000 today. But there was a brief hiccup during the second act. Shakespeare's dialogue was drowned out by the sound of clanging fire bells. Outside on the street, the show paused, and Edwin quietly spoke with the theater manager before returning to stage and breaking the fourth wall to address the audience. He informed them that a small fire had broken out nearby at the La Farge Hotel, but it was put out. The show could continue. At that time, neither the audience nor the actors on stage had a full understanding of. Of what had actually occurred that night. The year is 1864, and the performance might have been entertaining enough to put the Civil War out of mind. But the war was still going on. A group known as the Confederate army of Manhattan had infiltrated the city, and they were attempting to burn the city down.

Greg Young (20:24)

At the time that this happened, this was in November. It was like around Thanksgiving, in fact, of 1864. And the Confederacy, they were losing by this time. They were losing very, very badly. And it was almost a set done by this time. But there were a collection of Confederates who came to New York City in disguise. You know, they met in New York City, and they thought that one great way to turn the tide, or just a real sudden, like, shock and awe type of situation, was to go through New York and to set all of these fires all over the place. And they use what was called Greek fire today. It's almost like a Molotov cocktail.

Dana Schwartz (21:05)

They lit fires in a Theater, in P.T. barnum's New York City Museum, and in 19 hotels, including the La Farge.

Greg Young (21:14)

And so a group of these men went out into the city one particular night, and they were to some degree, successful. Some of them. I mean, overall, they were a bit incompetent, thank goodness. This was really before even, like you go out and do the circus properly. This was like a major venue, kind of like freak show meets zoo meets sort of like an anything goes type of place. They attempted to burn that down. Someone ran in and they threw the flames onto the stairs and it caught fire. But again, like, they didn't do a very good job of it. Most of these fires were put out

Dana Schwartz (21:51)

very quickly, Though there was momentary panic. The fires were effectively put out and the plot was foiled. The next morning, the Booth brothers all met for breakfast at Edwin's home on East 19th Street. Of course, the news of the day came up. How Confederate radicals had tried to burn the city to the ground. To Edwin's shock and surprise, John Wilkes defended the plot. Those Men were trying to get retribution for all of the atrocities the Union had committed. Can you blame them? Well, yes. Yes you can. Edwin, who had just voted for Lincoln's re election, was aghast. He kicked John Wilkes out of his house then and there.

Greg Young (22:41)

So John Wilkes Booth actually, yeah, was very Southern sympathizing, which would set him askance from his brother Edwin, who was more for the Union. He didn't have anything to do with these fires. But as we know, as the Confederacy decided to do more and more things that were more desperate in nature, he ended up getting pulled into the conflict eventually himself.

Dana Schwartz (23:03)

In April of the following year, John Wilkes Booth would assassinate President Abraham Lincoln fewer than five months after he had starred in a famous play about a political assassination.

Greg Young (23:18)

Oh yeah, exactly. Julius Caesar. Right. In fact, I believe John played Marc Anthony and Edwin played Brutus. And then Cassius was the brother Junius. So. But I wonder, I mean, certainly things were already clicking in John Wilkes mind by this point.

Dana Schwartz (23:35)

I assume Lincoln's assassination occurred at the Ford's theater in Washington D.C. during a production of Our American Cousin. Booth knew the play well. He supposedly tried to time his gunshot with a moment in the play where he knew the line always got a laugh to help muffle the sound. After the killing, John Wilkes Booth leapt from the box with Abraham Lincoln's bloody body and his shocked wife onto the stage. It was a feat of athleticism that had actually become something of a signature stunt for John Wilkes. When he was performing and with the diction of a trained actor, he shouted out the phrase sic semper tyrannus, thus always to tyrants. It's a line that's attributed most often to Lucius Junius Brutus or to his descendant Marcus Junius Brutus, who took part in the assassination of Julius Caesar. As I mentioned earlier, there's a Broadway theater still named after Edwin Booth. I've seen a few shows there actually. Next to normal, the Glass Menagerie. More recently they put up the Tony Award winning musical Kimberly Akimbo. And the crowd favorite, John Proctor is the villain. But its history goes back much further than that. The Booth Theater has been around for more than 100 years. It opened in 1913, named for the famous Shakespearean actor who had died 20 years earlier. The first show they ever put up was an import from London called the Great Adventure. I've never heard of it and I'm guessing you haven't either. But I did recognize the name of the second play they ever produced at the Booth Theater. It's a three act play by Tom Taylor that today isn't really known for its many merits. The next play they put up at the Booth Theater in 1915, a revival of Our American Cousin.

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Dana Schwartz (27:58)

You could spend a lovely afternoon in New York shopping in soho. The streets are dense with designer clothing and jewelry stores, but even if you're not in the market for $4,000 jackets, there are plenty of options. Next door to the Burberry on Spring street is a store called kaas, where you can get minimalist fashion for, well, a slightly more reasonable price. But if you happen to be in the neighborhood, the best find at COS wouldn't be its corduroy barrel leg pants or gallery tote bag with Croc Effect leather. No, the most interesting thing in the store isn't for sale at all. If you go into the store and turn left, you'll find a staircase leading down to the menswear department. You'll have to keep keep walking past the racks of funnel necked wool jackets and wool blend straight leg pants. In the back near the register there's well a well a circular brick well that looks extremely old and extremely incongruous among the Scandinavian style minimalism of Koss's clean lines. It looks extremely old because it is the now sealed well at 129 Spring street is what's left of the Manhattan well, the site of a grisly and tragic death. On January 2nd in 1800, the body of a young woman named Elma Sands was found inside the well, igniting a media firestorm. It would become one of the earliest murder trials in the still new United States. You might not know the name Elma Sands, but here's a name I'm betting you do know. Hamilton. Even if you're not a musical theater nerd to the degree that I am. Unless you've been living under a rock or down in a well. You know the ten dollar founding father whom Lin Manuel Miranda set to rap on Broadway back in 2015. There's a song right before the second act where Hamilton sings during his tenure as a lawyer. He's addressing an invisible jury with pomp and bravado. This is the first murder trial of our brand new nation and continues on a bit before he's interrupted by his co counsel Aaron Burr, stepping in with a little less bravado declaring our client Levy Weeks is innocent. Those lines are referencing something that did actually happen. Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton, future assassin and victim, did work together in 1800 on the legal defense of Levy Weeks. It wasn't actually the first murder trial in the new United States, but it is the first one we have full transcripts of, so close enough. Julielma Sands, known as Elma, lived at a boarding house in Manhattan owned by a relative, Catherine Ring and her husband. Now when I say Manhattan, that word probably connotes some degree of glamour or big city bustle in your mind. You're going to want to put that aside.

Greg Young (31:28)

We need to go back to the year 1799. You know, New York City is certainly not developed in any way, shape or form. We don't really even have like the old famous grid plan of avenues and streets. Most of New York was below today's Canal street, so this is right just slightly above Canal street. So completely undeveloped it would be small shacks again like a boarding house.

Dana Schwartz (31:55)

On December 22, 1799, Elma went missing for almost two weeks. Nobody had any idea where she could be, if she was even alive. And then her muff hand warmer was found in the well in the wildland known as Lispennards Meadow. Soho wasn't soho then. There were no designer stores or cute, overpriced coffee shops. It was a green space where hunting parties could occupy themselves and where a well stood to provide fresh water to the local area.

Greg Young (32:37)

This is an era before New York had a water system. In fact, it's a very fraught time between now and the 18th 40s when we finally get this proper Croton aqueduct, which brings in clean, clear water. So we didn't have that. You got your water from wells and you got them from cisterns. And so what happened is these sort of community wells became the center of activity because it's where everyone's going.

Dana Schwartz (33:05)

But on January 2nd, they weren't pulling water up from the well. Half a dozen men strained with a net to pull the body of a dead woman up from the depths below. There she was, dark hair strewn across her face, her pale skin bruised and waxy. It was Elma Sands, and she was long dead. Eventually, word spread and the constables heard the name Levy Weeks. Weeks was another boarder at the house where Elma lived. People said the two were romantically involved. There were rumors of a secret engagement. If anyone had murdered Alma Sands, and according to the verdict of the city coroner who examined her body, someone almost certainly had, it seemed likely it would have been Weeks. The public outcry came fast and intense. A beautiful young woman, only 22 years old, was found dead in the wintry cold water of a well. How could the city not fall into frenzy? Fortunately for Levy Weeks, arrested and awaiting trial in Bridewell Jail, he had a powerful brother, Ezra.

Greg Young (34:26)

So Ezra Weeks is one of New York's great builders, a very well connected man. In fact, he helped build Gracie Mansion back when that was an actual mansion, which today is the mayor's house. But it was a mansion up on the Upper east side. He also assisted in the construction later, well, not to spoil it, of Hamilton Grange, which is the house of Alexander Hamilton.

Dana Schwartz (34:53)

Ezra Weeks had also worked with Aaron Burr through Burr's association with something called the Manhattan Company. The Manhattan Company was really a tool for funding political candidates, but it ostensibly had the goal of establishing water infrastructure throughout the city. Ezra worked on laying wooden pipes to carry fresh water from wells dug in Lispennard's meadow, including, incidentally, the Manhattan well where Alma Sands was found.

Greg Young (35:25)

So a very well connected, a very wealthy man, his brother gets accused of murder, so what does he do?

Dana Schwartz (35:35)

He made sure to get his brother. The best legal minds in the city, Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton, the dream team.

Greg Young (35:45)

Of course, as we know, it will end in the infamous duel of 1804, where Burr murders Alexander Hamilton. But at this time, they're just like kind of frenemies. And they also just happen to both be very well respected lawyers.

Dana Schwartz (35:59)

There was also a third lawyer working on the case, H. Brockholst Livingston, who was known as a top lawyer, but who unfortunately wasn't famous or relevant enough to make it into the musical Hamilton, maybe. It was hard to find a rhyme with H. Brockholst Livingston. The trio of lawyers got Weeks out on bail and started working on his defense. During the trial, they methodically dismantled every seemingly damning piece of evidence against their client. He had an alibi that would have made actually pulling off the murder incredibly difficult. There was no evidence he and Alma actually were secret lovers. Maybe she was really involved in an affair with her relative's husband, her landlord, Mr. Ring. As a side note, there were plenty of the challenges to Alma's character that you might expect that a young unmarried woman might have been involved in the sort of salacious sexual activity that turns public sentiment against you. People speculated Alma might have been suicidal. She could have taken. Taken her own life. There was one other fairly damning piece of evidence against Levy Weeks. Immediately after Elma's body had been pulled from the water, the police went to arrest him. He worked as a carpenter, and when the constable approached him in his workshop, Weeks immediately knew they had come because of Elma Sands. Is it the Manhattan well she was found in? He asked. It was. How could he possibly have known that if he hadn't been the one to kill her and deposit her body there? Turns out there was a perfectly reasonable explanation. A neighbor testified that she had run in two weeks at the grocery store early in the afternoon on January 2nd and shared with him that apparently they had found Elma's muffins in a well near Byard's Lane, he told his brother Ezra, who said, oh, it was probably the Manhattan well. After all, Ezra had been working on the water project. And so when the police told Levy that they had found Elma's body, he was just making a reasonable guess as to where that probably was. Still, public opinion was vehemently against Weeks. Newspapers were calling for his execution. A beautiful young woman was found dead, her body pulled from a well. Somebody's head needed to roll. If you've learned anything from Watching true crime documentaries on various streaming services. You know, it's always the husband or in this case, the maybe, possibly secret fiance. But Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr, and the third guy who doesn't factor into the musical were excellent lawyers. And when the judge sent the jury off to deliberate, the judge made a frankly astonishing declaration informing the jurors that in the opinion of the court, the proof was insufficient to warrant a verdict against the prisoner. Maybe that's why it's not surprising to hear that the verdict came back less than five minutes later. The jury declared Weeks not guilty. Even still, the sting of public opinion and the damage to his reputation made it difficult for Weeks to remain in New York. He left the city a few years later and settled in Natchez, the capital of the Mississippi territory, where he was able to reinvent himself and begin a new life as a very successful architect, building a mansion that's now on the National Registry of Historic Places. And getting married and having four kids. We don't know how Alma sand died. We likely never will. One researcher and writer Paul Collins has put forward the theory that a man named Richard Croucher was actually to blame. Croucher was another resident at the boarding house where Weeks and Elma lived. And in the aftermath of Elma's disappearance, he had been one of the loudest voices against Weeks. As it turns out, Croucher had a pretty flimsy alibi and a notorious history of legal trouble and erratic violence, especially when he was drinking. Just three weeks after the Manhattan well trial, Croucher would brutally rape his 13 year old stepdaughter. He was eventually convicted and sentenced to hard labor, though he would get out after only three years on a pardon from the governor. But more crimes were to follow. He would break the terms of his parole and eventually be convicted of a crime that led to his hanging. All of this evidence is circumstantial, but it's pretty convincing circumstances in my personal opinion. Over the decades, Manhattan changed. Lisbenard's Meadow gave way to gridded streets and blocks with restaurants and artisanal coffee shops.

Greg Young (41:42)

That's the thing about soho in particular. It's always been associated with modernity. All the buildings are cast iron. You know, in the 70s and 80s and 90s it was super chic and today it's all boutiques.

Dana Schwartz (41:53)

But somehow the walls of the Manhattan well remained upright, preserved in soho even as the city around it became unrecognizable.

Greg Young (42:05)

It's since the 1970s that people who've owned that building have associated their well and their address. With this particular story, by which I mean they claim that it is haunted, and they've claimed that this building has been haunted for decades and decades. And so it makes for a great spooky time in a clothing store because we rarely get to see architecture like most people don't see wells. But to see something so old in a clothing store is really fascinating.

Dana Schwartz (42:38)

All of the parties involved in the notorious trial are long dead, and the truth is gone, known only to the ancient bricks of the Manhattan well still standing in the basement of a clothing store in soho, where shoppers can browse rack of trousers and jackets without knowing the tragic, dramatic history that had once unfolded right where they're standing. Wondering what a stone well is doing in the middle of a soho store.

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Coldwater Creek Advertiser (44:15)

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Dana Schwartz (45:17)

New York City is full of hidden history, centuries of stories stacked up like the floors of Downtown skyscrapers. But Greg brought my attention to another piece of New York City's past. I didn't know about history. That's quite literally underfoot, if you know where to look.

Greg Young (45:38)

All right, so head down to Lower Manhattan and to Pearl Street. So this is the financial district. It's like the oldest district. In fact, across the street is another very famous tavern named Franz's Tavern, which was a landmark to the Revolutionary War. Like George Washington from this tavern gave his farewell address.

Dana Schwartz (46:01)

I've actually eaten there. Not bad.

Greg Young (46:04)

However, across the street are the remains of a tavern that is almost 100 years older than that. So back in the 1660s, back when New York was in fact, a Dutch settlement called New Amsterdam, their city hall was actually a tavern because back then there weren't that many buildings. You needed a place where people could gather and was kind of sizable. So naturally it was a tavern. So that lasted then into, of course, the handover from the Dutch to the English. And it was, you know, it was a British stronghold for forever. And then the New York governor, a man named Lovelace, decided to expand it because it was getting a little rickety. By that time, it's already a couple decades old. He built what is called today the Lovelace Tavern right next to it. And they were connected. These were the official city buildings, but they were taverns. They were, in fact, places where you drank and, you know, you had a meal, but it was also a place where you conducted business. I believe that there was even like a jail in it. And they were courts were inside of this building.

Dana Schwartz (47:12)

It actually sounds like we could learn a lot about efficiency in architecture. A real one stop shop.

Greg Young (47:20)

So anyway, lasted for several decades in its own right. But then what's interesting about New York in general is it gets constantly built up, right, and never stops to kind of honor its past. When you find the past is even more amazing because so many things are gone. But with the city also, it starts expanding with landfill. So this used to be on the water. This faced, in fact into the water onto the East River. But then several decades later, they fill it up with landfill. So it's actually like a couple blocks away from the water. And the building is sort of useless by the start of the 18th century, and so kind of falls into like, uselessness. And then they go to pave it over because the streets are like, kind of rising as more and more people are coming to the city.

Dana Schwartz (48:11)

So now jump ahead to the 1960s. Businesses aren't exactly booming. A lot of offices have jumped away from the Financial district, moving to midtown, or even leaving New York City altogether.

Greg Young (48:28)

But there's this effort to try to revitalize Lower Manhattan. This will culminate, of course, in the construction of the World Trade center, which will bring business back to lower Manhattan. But sort of in this process, they're like redeveloping for new glass skyscrapers.

Dana Schwartz (48:47)

New building projects mean there's going to be digging a lot of it.

Greg Young (48:52)

And then while they're digging this one particular skyscraper, they look and they find the ruins of this tavern kind of intact with like tankards and plates, broken plates and everything.

Dana Schwartz (49:06)

The question then is, what do you do with the shockingly preserved historical tavern? The easy answer is, well, pave over it and make a parking lot. And unfortunately, that's exactly what they did. But that's not the end of the story. Because if you know Manhattan, you know that it's always changing. A meadow becomes a neighborhood, becomes a restaurant becomes a clothing store. A parking lot becomes, well, something else.

Greg Young (49:39)

A few years later, they're building something else. They rediscover it, or rather they knew that it was there. They pull that out and they're like, oh, let's actually preserve this. And this is in the 70s now. And so what they do, which is amazing, instead of taking the whole thing out or like bringing the sidewalk down so that people could see the walls, in fact, by that point, the street level is about at the top of the building. So they just put a glass sidewalk over the remains of this tavern.

Dana Schwartz (50:12)

An actual glass sidewalk. You can go see it. The quote portal down to old New York as it's identified on Google Maps, around 85 Broad St. A literal window into the the 17th century.

Greg Young (50:29)

That's a really cool secret. When you say things are literally hidden beneath your feet. This is the most literal answer I could possibly give you is this place.

Jason English (50:40)

Okay, first of all, how cool is it that Greg Young and the Bowery Boys agreed to do this? That's a Hall of Fame podcast. If there's a podcast hall of Fame. I don't know if there is, but there should be. Totally. Greg should be in it.

Zarin Burnett (50:52)

First ballot.

Dana Schwartz (50:53)

Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (50:53)

So, so grateful to Greg. It was so sweet of him to spend his time talking with me. So interesting. So smart.

Jason English (50:59)

Zarin. You know, this is a non typical one. This would be hard to get all this into one film, but did you have any fun putting on your casting hat here?

Zarin Burnett (51:07)

I actually, I did. This was an interesting one. I have like two actors to cast and then also I threw in Shakespeare just because he got mentioned so often. So for Marilyn, I went a couple different ways because she's been portrayed recently on the screen. And I was like, okay, I want to come up with someone fresh. So I went with Lea Seydoux, the French actress. I thought she would be really interesting. And then if she's unavailable, Florence Pugh, I thought she could also play it pretty well for Joe DiMaggio. I thought he may be a little bit tall, but I think he's got the right energy as Adrien Brody.

Dana Schwartz (51:38)

Yeah, he has the right energy. Maybe not the physique, but I think

Dana Schwartz (51:42)

he could do it.

Zarin Burnett (51:43)

Yes, exactly. And he's lean enough that I think he can get it. And then John Wilkes Booth, this was another difficult one. One of the actors I liked was too tall. And then the other one, I think he may be too escape associated with other things. But if he wears his brown hair and works on, like, a Van Dyke or some type of, like, 19th century appropriate facial hair, I think it could work. So Adam Driver and Orlando Bloom, those are my two options.

Dana Schwartz (52:07)

Ooh, right. Yeah.

Zarin Burnett (52:10)

Especially Orlando Bloom's a surprise one for me. And then Adam Driver's is a little bit big, but I think he's got the aggressiveness that I kind of picture from the ego of John Wilkes Booth.

Dana Schwartz (52:19)

Oh, yeah.

Dana Schwartz (52:20)

I'm reading Lena Dunham's memoir right now, and everything I'm learning about Adam Driver is he is definitely an actor's actor, so I think he could have that energy.

Lowe's Advertiser (52:29)

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Jason English (52:30)

He went to Juilliard, right?

Dana Schwartz (52:31)

Juilliard.

Jason English (52:32)

He's like a real actor, properly trained.

Zarin Burnett (52:34)

Oh, and for the last one, William Shakespeare, I thought this because I was imagining the images of a lot of the very famous paintings. Edward Norton.

Dana Schwartz (52:42)

Yeah, let's get him a statue, right?

Zarin Burnett (52:44)

Yeah, totally.

Jason English (52:46)

I like the part where it was kind of a twofer. It was not only history hiding in plain sight in the soho store, but also in Hamilton. This, like, this meticulous historical play also has this tossed off line that you used as a jumping off point. So kudos to you.

Dana Schwartz (53:05)

You know, kudos to Lin Manuel Miranda.

Zarin Burnett (53:08)

I loved all the musical theater references. I thought that was so much fun.

Dana Schwartz (53:11)

That's really the truth is that I go to New York City to squeeze in as many musicals as I can.

Zarin Burnett (53:17)

That's cool.

Jason English (53:18)

For very special character. I think we could easily give it to Greg for agreeing to do this. We could also easily give it to the iHeart accounts payable team for approving the travel expenses, hopefully approving them in the future. Zarin, can we get you to give this treatment to another city of your choice.

Zarin Burnett (53:34)

Oh yeah, I think San Francisco actually know a couple already. Fun like hidden history sites. People walk past them all the time. They're on Market Street, Union Square, and they are connected to the San Francisco of the mind in terms of like what we think of as being San Francisco. But also it's like, oh, this place has always been kind of counterculture. So yes, definitely.

Narrator/Producer (53:55)

Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. This show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarin Burnett and Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Bisher. Today's episode was written by Dana Schwartz. Editing and sound design by Jonathan Washington Additional editing by Mary Dew Mixing and mastering by Josh Fisher Original Music by Elise McCoy show logo by Lucy Quintanilla Social clips by Yarberry Media. Our executive producer is Jason English. Special thanks to Greg Young of the Bowery Boys Podcast. That was very cool. Go over and scroll through their archives. You'll get hooked on their show too. We just recorded a mailbag episode which is going to come out next Wednesday, but if you ever want to email the show, hit us up. Very Special Episodesmail.com Very Special Episodes is a place production of I Heart Podcasts

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Dana Schwartz (57:23)

this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.