Noble Blood — “An Earl, a Priest, and Martha Ray”
iHeartPodcasts & Grim & Mild
Host: Dana Schwartz
Guest: Dr. Peter Weller
Original Release: September 9, 2025

Overview

This episode dives deep into the life, legacy, and contradictions of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II (1194–1250), with Dr. Peter Weller — renowned actor, director, and scholar of Renaissance art — joining host Dana Schwartz. The conversation explores how Frederick II navigated fierce papal opposition, fostered unprecedented tolerance and innovation, and embodied qualities sometimes called “Renaissance” centuries before the movement began. Weller also weaves in his own journey from actor to art historian, revealing personal mentorship by figures such as Ali MacGraw and Vittorio Storaro.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Peter Weller's Unlikely Path to Renaissance Studies

Artistic Awakening

• Weller credits his pivot to Renaissance art to being "shamed" into it by friends like Ali MacGraw and Vittorio Storaro.
• MacGraw introduced him to Picasso, and a transformative visit to MoMA convinced him of art’s significance.
• Storaro chastised Weller for ignorance of Giotto—“the one piece...solidified as a cornerstone” for Western art—and inspired him to study deeper.
• Weller’s initial ignorance:

  “I was the ugly American...I was the guy who went to Italy and hung out on the piazza, smoking a cigar...but never did a deep dive into it.” (06:04)

Renaissance Scholarship

• Studied at Syracuse University’s competitive program.
• Fascinated by the Franciscan movement, contemporary to Frederick II, as a spiritually radical (and soon co-opted) force.

Italy in the Middle Ages: Geo-Political Turmoil and the Rise of Frederick II

• Italy’s desirable geography explained:

  “It’s a finger that sticks into the med. And the med is the only systemic of trade in the world.” (09:16)

• Post-Roman collapse, Italy is a prize contested by Charlemagne, the Normans, Lombards, Muslims, and upstart city-states like Venice.
• Tolerant, polyglot Norman rulers in Sicily established a unique enclave of coexistence that enabled Frederick II’s cosmopolitan upbringing.

Quote:

“Roger II is a guy who’s tolerant of Jews, he’s tolerant of Muslims...This Norman guy, right, is swinging, okay?” (13:10)

Frederick II: The “Stupor Mundi” (“Wonder of the World”)

Personal Background & Traits

• Born to the union of the Holy Roman Emperor (Henry VI) and Constance of Sicily; raised amid chaos and invasions.
• Early legends cite his ferocity and independence, e.g., attacking a usurper as a child (15:20).
• Uncommonly multi-lingual and highly educated, thanks to his mother’s influence.

Quote:

“You gotta learn languages, you gotta learn Hebrew, you gotta learn Arabic, you gotta learn Greek...Because you can’t just win by domination.” (15:05)

Rule, Policies, and Contradictions (12th–13th centuries)

• Supported by multiple Italian towns, Frederick oscillated between papal alliances and antagonism, navigating a fractured Italy divided by Guelphs (papal) and Ghibellines (imperial).
• Intellectual patronage: founded the University of Naples, fostered science, wrote on falconry, promoted literature and the arts; showed “deference to human rights in many ways.” (20:01)
• Diplomatic prowess:

  “Taking 3,000 people into Germany against an army of almost 80,000...diplomatically winning that whole thing back and doing the same thing in Sicily. This is gifted stuff. This is the art of rap.” (24:44)

• Controversial acts: could be ruthless, killed friends and even imprisoned his own son for rebellion (26:50–27:02).
• Religious conflict: excommunicated by the Pope four times, but “they bring him back...because he's diplomatic.” (20:44–20:56)
• Maintained tolerance in Sicily, giving Muslims land instead of slaughtering or expelling them.

Frederick II’s Legacy

• Weller stresses the need to balance mystical legend with historical realities:

  “He did kill people. He did kill his best friend, you know, for treason...But he did also give people right to civil courts over land distributions.” (24:17–24:32)

• Seen as a forerunner of the Renaissance, Renaissance humanism, and enlightened rule.
• His death led to a succession crisis (“the great interregnum”) since his heirs lacked his talents.

  “I don't think they had the talent...his jam, which is speaking and coming to terms...is unique to him.” (25:46–27:02)

• Frederick’s inability to transmit his diplomatic and intellectual gifts resulted in the Holy Roman Empire’s fragmentation.

Memorable Anecdotes & Quotes

• On learning from next generations:
  Peter recounts being shown Pompeii’s sewage pipes by his son, who found them on TikTok:

  “My kid on TikTok found out where the sewage systems were in Pompeii...It just stopped us dead, Dana.” (27:10–28:30)

• Lead/plumbing trivia:
  Dana: “The elemental symbol for lead is Pb and that comes from the Latin word for plumbing, plumbum...their pipes were lead, their plumbing was lead.”

• On the Renaissance’s real roots:
  Weller is skeptical of Florence’s monopoly on the Renaissance mythos:

  “Florence is the apex of all things Renaissance, but it’s not the seed of all things Renaissance.” (31:56)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “You cannot divorce Frederick from...the guy who was in a clash with Catholicism, as almost all emperors were...But...so deferential to human rights in many ways.” (20:01–20:44, Peter Weller)

• “Once in a while there’s a dude or a woman who goes...the freedom of people is better than the domination of people. Like, allowing people liberties. The way to control your sheep is given a large pasture.” (18:57, Peter Weller)

• “I think that is essentially what Frederick is famous for. And Frederick, by the way, goes on a crusade, and he wins territory by diplomacy. And it pisses off the Pope.” (19:04, Peter Weller)

Suggested Resources

• David Abulafia, Frederick II — “really the book to read...takes you, walks you through the good and the bad news about Frederick II.” (32:46, Peter Weller)
• Peter Weller’s own book: Leon Battista Alberti in Exile: Tracing the Path to the First Modern Book on Painting — explores a Renaissance polymath as a kind of spiritual descendant of Frederick II.

  “[Alberti] is like the fallout of Frederick II. He’s everything that Frederick II wanted to be.” (29:41, Peter Weller)

Final Thoughts

Peter Weller and Dana Schwartz paint Frederick II as a truly singular figure — polyglot, scientist, tolerant ruler, but ruthless when needed; a “Renaissance man” before the Renaissance, remarkable in an age of brutality and chaos. Weller’s personal academic journey, entwined with star-studded anecdotes, makes the episode as much about the process of historical curiosity as about the facts themselves. The episode offers both a rich character study and a tour of Italian medieval/early Renaissance power dynamics, perfect for listeners who enjoy history told through passionate, human voices.

Timestamped Highlights

| Time | Topic/Quote | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:36–06:03| Weller’s journey from actor to art scholar; Giotto and the embarrassment of ignorance | | 09:10–13:15| Medieval Italy—the scramble for power, Norman tolerance, and the importance of Sicily | | 15:05–16:00| Frederick’s unusual education and cosmopolitan worldview | | 18:57–20:44| Frederick’s approach to rule: tolerance, diplomacy, and papal conflict | | 24:17–25:32| Weller and Schwartz discuss Frederick’s legacy: positive and negative | | 27:10–28:30| Weller’s son discovers Pompeii’s sewers via TikTok | | 29:28–32:16| Discussion of Weller’s new book and Renaissance mythmaking | | 32:46 | “Frederick II by David Abulafia is really the book to read...” |

Overall Tone: Engaged, storytelling, erudite, sometimes irreverent, and deeply personal.

For listeners, this episode is rich with insight on Frederick II and the roots of the modern West — and you’ll leave with reading recommendations, new Renaissance trivia, and an irrepressible urge to visit Italy with Dr. Weller as your guide.