Very Special Episodes: A High School Brawl in the Panama Canal Zone

Summary

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Noble Blood: Very Special Episodes

Episode: A High School Brawl in the Panama Canal Zone
Date: October 25, 2025
Host: Dana Schwartz (iHeartPodcasts & Grim & Mild)
Guests/Contributors: Marisa Lasso, Wendy Tribaldos, Jim Jenkins, Rimsky Sucre, Jason English, Aaron Burnett

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Overview

This episode of Very Special Episodes (a Noble Blood collaboration) dives deeply into the story of how a high school flag dispute in the 1964 Panama Canal Zone erupted into riots that ultimately influenced Panama’s quest for sovereignty. Through a mix of historical context, first-person recollections, and analysis from Panamanian scholars, the show unpacks how this “brawl” between American and Panamanian teenagers turned into a catalyst for monumental geopolitical change, leading eventually to the end of the Canal Zone as a U.S. colony.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. The Canal Zone: An “American Town” in Panama

[01:40–05:37]

• Dana Schwartz sets the scene in 1960s Panama City, contrasting the bustling Latin American city with the manicured, almost surreal American suburb of the Canal Zone.
• The Canal Zone, a 10-mile wide strip controlled by the U.S. since 1903, was home to 36,000 Americans (military and civilians) — a “country within a country.”
• Panamanians were largely excluded, except as workers or domestic help; the Zone had its own police and American customs, schools, and football games.

Notable Quote:
"It's definitely a different country. We had our own police force… It was definitely a different country."
— Joe Bremer (16:49)

2. The Roots of Panamanian Resentment

[07:06–13:49]

• The strategic history of the Isthmus of Panama, its colonization, and the U.S. “big stick” diplomacy (Theodore Roosevelt).
• The 1903 Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty granted the U.S. expansive and, in hindsight, exploitative rights over the Canal Zone.
• Massive displacement: About 40,000 Panamanians were expelled, whole towns erased for American settlements.

Notable Quote:
"This treaty gave to the US control of the Panama Canal Zone… as if it were sovereign in eternity."
— Marisa Lasso (11:16)

Notable Quote:
"The US built the canal over a densely populated area... There were around 40,000 people expelled."
— Marisa Lasso (11:42)

3. Divide and Discontent: Life for "Zonians" vs. Panamanians

[13:49–20:26]

• The Canal Zone is described as a “tropical paradise” for Americans, with organized neighborhoods and a “Tropical District Differential” (extra salary for living in the tropics).
• Jim Jenkins and Joe Bremer recall a classic American adolescence, while Panamanian teens—like Rimsky Sucre—describe exclusion and surveillance.
• The sense of home and pride for Zonians contrasted starkly with Panamanians’ anger and humiliation.

Notable Quote:
"They were also Sonians. They were also different Americans. They were overseas Americans…"
— Wendy Tribaldos (19:50)

Notable Quote:
"There was a lot of resentment. We felt like... approaching the Canal Zone or having any relationship with the Canal Zone was almost like bullying."
— Rimsky Sucre (17:39)

4. The Flashpoint: The Flag Dispute at Balboa High School

[22:47–27:41]

• Presidential order: Both U.S. and Panamanian flags should fly at public buildings in the Canal Zone as a gesture of partnership.
• Zonians refused, seeing the Zone as American territory, causing outrage and protests when the American flag was omitted.
• Balboa High students, led by Jenkins, protested by raising the American flag in defiance.

Notable Quote:
"I got the group together to raise the flag. ...We weren't looking for trouble. We were looking for a resolution."
— Jim Jenkins (27:41)

5. From Student Protest to Political Explosion

[31:00–39:26]

• News spreads: Panamanian students perceive the Balboa protest as disrespect to Panamanian sovereignty.
• Inspired by prior flag protests, about 200 Panamanian students, with their historic school flag, marched peacefully into the Canal Zone.
• The planned demonstration—holding up the Panamanian flag at Balboa High—degenerated into chaos. Translation issues and crowd hostility led to pushing and shoving, culminating in the Panamanian flag being torn.

Notable Quote:
"It's one of the biggest mysteries... You have the Panamanians saying the Americans ripped it up. ...You had the very hostile crowd."
— Wendy Tribaldos (46:39)

6. Aftermath: Riots, Martyrs, and the Path to Sovereignty

[49:24–55:07]

• Radio and newspapers inflame the story, turning the torn-flag incident into days of riots, violence, and deaths (at least 21 Panamanians, 4 Americans).
• January 9th becomes “Day of the Martyrs” in Panama, marking the start of public unity and sustained protest against U.S. presence.
• The violence and outcry forced the U.S. to renegotiate, culminating in the handover of the Canal Zone in 1979 and full canal control to Panama in 1999.

Notable Quote:
"It came to this point... where people lost lives... this had to happen for the US to react and think, okay, we might need to do something in Panama and try to not be the colonial power that we are."
— Wendy Tribaldos (53:20)

Notable Quote:
"Every Panamanian family will have a different story of how they entered the canal zone in 1979, how they felt... finally we could anchor in the Canal Zone."
— Marisa Lasso (54:34)

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Memorable Moments & Reflections

Teen Agency and Historical Change

[56:48–57:37]

• Both Zonian and Panamanian students acted “very much into fighting for causes,” their youthful energy making them unlikely but pivotal agents of history.

Notable Quote:
"You can see the teenagerism in both sides in different ways... typical teenage behavior... two separate mind frames, two separate nationalities, two separate educational systems."
— Wendy Tribaldos (56:48)

Reflections on Flags & Identity

[57:37–61:03]

• Panelists share their favorite world flags and reflect on the symbolism and emotional weight carried by national icons, especially in moments of confrontation.

Recasting History

[60:46–61:35]

• Fun segment on hypothetical casting for a film adaptation, underscoring the episode’s narrative vividness and the dramatic arc spanning policy, adolescence, and nationhood.

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Setting the Scene – [01:40–05:37]
• Historical Origins & Panamanian Displacement – [07:06–13:49]
• Life in the Canal Zone & Exclusion – [13:49–20:26]
• Flag Dispute Emerges – [22:47–27:41]
• Protests Escalate & Flag Torn – [31:00–46:39]
• From Flag Incident to National Riots – [49:24–53:45]
• Return of the Canal Zone & Lasting Legacy – [54:34–56:48]
• Teenagers as Historic Agents – [56:48–57:37]
• Light Segment: Favorite Flags/Recapping – [57:37–61:03]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• "This treaty gave to the US control of the Panama Canal Zone… as if it were sovereign in eternity."
  — Marisa Lasso [11:16]

• "You have the Panamanians saying that the Americans ripped it up... and the very hostile crowd."
  — Wendy Tribaldos [46:39]

• "I actually have no idea. I'm sorry that anything like that happened because I respect the flag too much. I respect our flag. I respect their flag."
  — Jim Jenkins [47:47]

• "The Panamanian people united like never before."
  — Rimsky Sucre [52:37]

• "It came to this point... this had to happen, sadly, where people lost lives... so the US might need to do something in Panama and try not to be the colonial power that we are."
  — Wendy Tribaldos [53:20]

• "You can see the teenagerism in both sides... two separate mind frames, two separate nationalities."
  — Wendy Tribaldos [56:48]

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Tone and Language

The episode weaves personal remembrance with scholarly insight, maintaining a thoughtful yet accessible tone. The language is reflective, sometimes nostalgic, often evocative, especially in firsthand accounts and contemporary analyses. Dana Schwartz and her team skillfully balance narrative flair with historical clarity, offering both gripping storytelling and nuanced context.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode tells the little-known story of how a flag dispute at Balboa High School in the Panama Canal Zone escalated into deadly riots and, ultimately, a turning point in Panamanian history. Through the recollections of those who lived it and insights from historians, listeners see how a tense, segregated “American town” in Panama fostered decades of resentment. Teenagers on both sides became unexpected catalysts in a confrontation that forced the United States to relinquish its colonial grip, leading Panama to true sovereignty—and ensuring both nations and their peoples would never be the same.

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Transcript

[Jason English]

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[Jim Jenkins]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

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[Jim Jenkins]

Cut the camera.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

They see us.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

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[Jim Jenkins]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Once upon a time, there was a country within a country. If you visited Panama city in the 1960s, you'd find a bustling Latin American community. Downtown streets packed with department stores, fruit vendors hawking empanadas and shaved ice advertisements plastered on billboards and telephone poles, tourist bars playing salsa music late into the night. In other words, Panama city in the 1960s was a lively, messy, slightly chaotic place. In western Panama City was a street called Fourth of July Avenue. It was the first sign you were entering a different part of Panama. Realistically, it wasn't part of Panama at all. Crossing 4th of July Avenue, the noise and chaos of Panama City faded into the background. On the other side of the street was something completely different. A lush suburban paradise. Handsome single family homes and apartment buildings, manicured lawns and pristine streets. It looked like a mid century American town had been dropped into the Panamanian jungle, because that's exactly what it was when the United States struck a deal with Panama to build the Panama Canal in 1903. It also created something called the Canal Zone to build and operate the Canal The United States needed a place for the Canal Company workers to live. That was the canal zone, a 10 mile wide strip of land from running the full length of the Panama Canal. For the next 75 years, the canal Zone was a slice of America smack in the middle of Panama, a country within a country. By the early 1960s, there were 36,000Americans living in the Canal Zone, both civilians and military personnel. Life in the Canal Zone looked a lot like life in any 1960s American town. The teenage kids of the Canal Workers attended Balboa High School. They had Friday night football games, went to sock hops and watched midnight movies at the local theater. But not everyone was happy with this country in a country arrangement. From the very beginning, many Panamanians protested the Canal Zone's existence. They thought that giving the Americans control, control of the Panamanian territory was an affront to Panamanian sovereignty. Panamanians were restricted from entering the Canal Zone unless they worked for the Canal Company or were hired as maids or nannies for the American families. The Canal Zone had its own police force, armed, American, and quick to hassle anyone who didn't look like they belonged to. By 1964, Panamanian resentment of the Canal Zone was at an all time high. Over the world, colonialism was being dismantled. But here in the middle of Panama was a de facto American colony. What would it take to get the Americans to leave and for Panama to finally be its own country in charge of its own country Canal? The answer, it turned out, was a bunch of teenagers. Welcome to Very special episodes, an iHeart original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz and this is how a Panama Canal High school brawl changed history.

[Jason English]

We are so back. She's Dana Schwartz. He's Aaron Burnett. I'm Jason English. Josh Fisher's on the other side of the glass here. We're back for another season of very special Episodes. Welcome everybody.

[Aaron Burnett]

Glad to be back.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

I'm so excited to be back. I feel like I went up on that. I was. That's my excitement coming out.

[Aaron Burnett]

I felt it.

[Jason English]

Well, the bar is set high this season, I'm pleased to report. Very Special Episodes is now a two time winner in the Signal award podcast category. Best commute podcast.

[Aaron Burnett]

Heck yeah.

[Jason English]

So yeah, it's a lot of pressure.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That's also kind of of the best time to listen to a podcast. I don't want to brag, but like commute podcast is sort of a real category.

[Aaron Burnett]

Yeah, that is the window. I mean, you have undivided attention and the people are sitting there in traffic or on A subway waiting for like any good distraction. And there we are. You know, it's like the best.

[Jason English]

Yeah. If you've been returned to office recently and not thrilled about it, I feel for you. But at least you can go back and listen to the archives here. I know you guys don't do this for the awards. I do. So this meant a lot to me.

[Aaron Burnett]

I'm right there with you. I was very stoked we got back to back too. Not just like we won, but we're holding it down.

[Jason English]

Dynasty. Well, we've got a great whole season planned. We'll be here every Wednesday through the rest of the year. We'll be back in January. We've got some Olympics episodes planned, maybe a Super bowl episode, maybe something brewing in San Francisco. So thank you for coming back and let's get right into it.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Let's do it. In addition to being a country, Panama is an Istanbul Christmas. One of those words you learned in junior high and immediately forgot. If you look at a map of north and South America, Panama is the narrow strip of land connecting the two continents. On the northern coast of Panama is the Atlantic Ocean. On the southern coast is the Pacific Ocean. At Panama's narrowest point, the distance between the two oceans is just 30 miles. A geographic anomaly that wasn't lost on the first Spanish explorers to land on its shores.

[Marisa Lasso]

Panama has been connecting the Atlantic and Pacific oceans since the 16th century because since the Spanish Empire, goods had to travel from Europe to South America. Goods and people. So Panama was the route. And that's why Panama. We have to think about Panama as a 500 years old route that connected the oceans.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That's Marisa Lasso, a Panamanian historian. Marisa says that the Isthmus of Panama has always been a prized shortcut. For centuries, people and goods traveled across that narrow passage using a combination of rivers and mule trails. The Panama Railroad was built in the 1850s 50s to transport eager prospectors on their way to the California gold rush. But the dream was always to connect the Atlantic and Pacific oceans directly via a giant canal. The United States wasn't the first country to attempt it. The French gave the Panama Canal a shot in the 1880s. It was a fantastic failure. More than 22,000 thousand workers died during construction, mostly from tropical diseases like malaria and yellow fever. In eight years of digging, they only managed to carve out 11 miles of canal. Teddy Roosevelt wasn't scared off by the French fiasco. He really wanted the United States to build and own the Panama Canal. Owning the canal would give America economic Control of a vital new shipping lane, plus a strategic stronghold for the US military in Latin America. The story of how the US won the right to build the Panama Canal is a saga of its own. The short version is that Panama wasn't an independent country. For most of 1903, it was still part of Colombia. And Colombia had just emerged from a bloody civil war in which most Panamanians were on the losing side. Remember Teddy Roosevelt's famous adage, speak softly and carry a big stick? This is a perfect example. In 1903, Teddy Roosevelt softly approached the Columbian Congress with an offer to complete the canal. When Columbia rejected that offer, Roosevelt switched to his proverbial big stick. The Panamanians picked up that if they revolted against Colombia, America would help make sure the revolt was a success. From the American side, new Panama Canal negotiations would be able to take place with an independent country.

[Marisa Lasso]

It was the end of a bloody, bloody civil war that left many casualties in Panama. And in that moment of powerlessness, the construction of a Panama Canal was seen as a great hope and aspiration.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

On November 3, 1903, Panama declared its independence. Fifteen days later, the new nation signed the Hay Buno Varia Treaty, granting the United States full control of the Canal Zone. In retrospect, the treaty was a bad deal for Panama.

[Marisa Lasso]

This treaty was even worse than the one that the Colombian Congress rejected. This treaty gave to the US Control of the Panama Canal Zone five miles on each side, as if it were sovereign in eternity.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

So what happened to the tens of thousands of Panamanians already living there?

[Marisa Lasso]

One of the recurrent ideas about the Canal Zone and the canal is, is that the US built a canal on the jungle. No, no. It built the canal over a densely populated area filled with towns, people and fields. According to my calculation, there were around 40,000 people expelled and all the historic towns were dismantled to replace them with brand new towns where only canal employees would live.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Marisa wrote about this massive displacement of Panamanians in her book, the Untold Story of the Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is widely recognized as one of the greatest engineering achievements of the 20th century, and deservedly so. When the gargantuan project was finished in 1914, ships from both oceans could cross the 51 mile route through a series of gravity fed locks filled by two massive man made lakes. Operation of the canal was eventually handled by the Panama Canal Company. The Canal Company wasn't a traditional company in the sense that it wasn't a private business. It was an extension of the US Government. For example, the president of the Canal Company was also the governor of the Canal Zone. Kinda weird, right? But that's because everyone who lived in the Canal Zone worked in some capacity for the Canal Company or the US military. Basically, the Canal Zone was a government run company town inside another country, perhaps the only one of its kind in the world. The Canal Company provided everything for its workers. Comfortable housing for families, free high quality education for the kids, and American style groceries at the company commissary. In short, life in the Canal Zone was good.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

The Canal Zone was a tropical paradise for the Americans that used to live there during the 20th century. Most of them worked, the civil part worked for the Canal and all the businesses that surrounded it, like maintenance of the Canal Zone, which was a beautiful area, I mean, full of trees, very organized, very structured, very orderly. You wouldn't find a speck of garbage in the zone and everything was taken care for you by the US government. You also got a very nice salary. You got paid something called the Tropical District Differential for the sacrifice of living in the tropics.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That's Wendy Tribaldos, a Panamanian historian and writer. Wendy's written a great book about the history of the tensions between the American residents of the Canal Zone and the rest of Panama. Her description of the Canal Zone as a tropical paradise is echoed by the Americans who lived there in the 1950s and 60s.

[Jim Jenkins]

And it was a glorious place to grow up in. I felt free. We could go into the jungles and I would travel all over the area. I thought nothing of it. I loved fish, I loved hiking, I loved swimming, and all these activities we could do outdoors.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That's Jim Jenkins. His family moved to the Canal zone in the 1940s when he was was 2 years old. Jim's dad was in the Navy and his mom was a budget analyst for the Canal Company. Jim says that life in the Canal Zone was similar in many ways to small town life in the States. His high school, for example, Balboa High, sounds like it could have been flown in brick by brick from Iowa.

[Jim Jenkins]

We'd have our sock hops, we'd have our sporting events. During the sock hops. We'd have sodas and I'd help sell sodas for the student union during the football games. We'd be out there cheering, you know, I wasn't much of an athlete, but I sure did enjoy going.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

The fact that a high school in Panama fielded an American football team should be a sign of just how American this place was.

[Jim Jenkins]

It definitely felt like I was an American. He spoke English, we used American customs and you know, like high school. We played football. We didn't play soccer. You think, why not soccer? You're in Panama. No one else has football. Two high schools, one in the Atlantic side, one in the Pacific side. Both played football, but no soccer.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That's Joe Bremer, president of the Balboa High school class of 1964 and a classmate of Jim Jenkins. Joe's mother was Panamanian, and he had family in Panama City, which gave Joe a unique perspective on life in the Canal Zone.

[Jim Jenkins]

Absolutely. A different country. Yeah. I mean, we had our own police force, we had our own traffic laws, speed limits, et cetera. It's definitely a different country. When my relatives came to visit us in the Canal Zone, they were stopped there and they had to give the address and the person they were visiting. And sometimes they would call us and say, are you expecting so and so? And we'd say, yes, send them in.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Getting stopped by the Canal Zone police was a regular occurrence for Panamanians, especially young people. Rimsky Sucre was one of those young Panamanians. Rimsky attended high school at the prestigious Instituto Nacional, or National Institute, located right on the border with the Canal Zone.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Crossing the street, it was like entering a completely different territory. They had a surveillance system where every zonian was an informant, so if you dropped even the smallest piece of paper somewhere, it'd be reported. So there was a lot of resentment. We felt like even approaching the Canal Zone or having any relationship with the Canal Zone was almost like bullying. It's like they were saying, you're worthless here if you don't have special privileges, permission.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

The resentment that Rimsky felt wasn't just about him and his friends getting hassled by the Canal Zone police. It was a resentment shared by most Panamanians. Resentment over being treated like a foreigner in your own country, resentment over America's paternalistic attitude toward Panama, and resentment over the US Government's refusal to renegotiate the bad treaty that created the Canal Zone in the first place.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

It was very complex relationship between the Panamanians and the US because we understood the privilege of having the Canal within our territory. But we also felt that we did not get what we deserved. And in terms of sovereignty, it was a big issue for us.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Sovereignty means self rule. As long as the Canal Zone existed, Panama was not a sovereign nation. For Rimsky and his friends, sovereignty was the number one issue. It was a constant topic of debate in class at the Instituto Nacional.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Since 1903, when that agreement was signed. The most important Panamanian figures and the people immediately opposed it and we called it the Ignominious Agreement.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

When would Panama truly achieve independence? Only when the Americans finally left the Canal Zone. But for Americans like Jim and Joe, the Canal Zone was their home too. Some of their classmates were third generation Zonians. That's the name for Americans born and raised in the Canal Zone. As Wendy Trabaldos explains, Zonians were very proud of their place in Panama's history.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

They were very proud to be American and also very proud that the United States built the Canal. You must understand that it was a centuries long dream and it was only accomplished by the us so their grandfathers and their fathers were the ones involved in that construction and they were very aware of that fact. But they were also Sonians. They were also different Americans. They were overseas Americans, sort of those Americans that lived in U.S. bases throughout the world. But they lived in one particular place and it was their home and it was a very important place for them.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

To the Zonians, the Canal Zone was a symbol of American ingenuity. A slice of idyllic and orderly American life carved out of the Panamanian jungle. To Panamanians, the Canal Zone was a colonial outpost, a privileged enclave where they weren't welcome in Panama. Frustrations with the Canal Zone had been simmering for decades. But what would it take to change the status quo? Maybe a communist revolution or a military coup? Not exactly. The future of Panamanian independence would be determined by a fight over a flag.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

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[Jim Jenkins]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Jim Jenkins]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

January 2, 1964 was a Thursday. It was the first day of classes after Christmas break for the mostly American students of Balboa High School in the Canal Zone. There was the usual excitement of seeing friends after a long vacation and the start of a new semester. But something was different. Something was missing. Actually, the large flag pole in front of the school stood empty. Usually it flew the American flag like all other public buildings in the Canal Zone, but not that morning. The flag was gone. Over Christmas break, the governor of the Canal Zone found himself in a no win situation. An order had come down from the President of the United States to fly both the Panamanian and American flags at all Canal Zone public buildings. It was meant as a peace gesture to the Panamanian people who were increasingly frustrated with the US Presence in Panama. Flying both flags was supposed to be a symbol of the enduring partnership between America and Panama that created the Panama Canal. But the Americans living in the Canal Zone weren't having it. They picketed outside Governor Robert Fleming's house and protested the presidential order. The Canal Zone was American territory. Why should they have to fly a Panamanian flag? Governor Fleming was in a pickle. If he defied the President's order to fly both flags, he could lose his job. But if he flew the Panamanian flag at Canal Zone high schools, the students and parents might lose their minds. So the Governor came up with a temporary flag he thought would buy him time until a permanent solution was found. Instead of forcing the schools to raise both flags, he told them not to fly any flags at all.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

And you must understand the rituals that were behind that flag. I mean, it was very important for them. The ROTC group used to put it up and down every single day with high military honors, for example, besides having the flag flown inside of their classrooms and things like that. So for them was also a very important issue that tied them together to their American faraway country. So for them, not having their flag flown in there was a big shock.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Jim Jenkins, a senior at Balboa High, remembers first reading about the Governor's decision in an article in Stars and Stripes, the Armed Forces newspaper, right after Christmas.

[Jim Jenkins]

That the article was published saying that the Governor had decided that there would be no flags at the American courts or schools. So this is where I said, well, where does the governor get off telling us that we can't have our flag?

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

This was 1964, an era of civil rights demonstrations across the U.S. jim read newspapers and watched TV. He saw how young people were mobilizing and standing up for causes they believed in. Why couldn't they do the same thing in the Canal Zone?

[Jim Jenkins]

When I got back to school, I had circulated a petition to the governor to allow us to have our flag back. And the first two days of passing it around, it's okay. And then the school admin confiscated it. And that kind of ticked us off because, you know, we do have the right to petition.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

That weekend, Jim and his friends met at the Balboa Clubhouse, a popular Canal Zone hangout, complete with a soda fountain, a lunch counter and a swimming pool. Over a round of cherry Cokes and cream sodas, Jim and his friends formulated a plan.

[Jim Jenkins]

So a group of us got together and said, what can we do? They've taken away our right to petition. And they said, well, I don't know how we came up with the idea, but the idea was, we'll raise the flag as a demonstration of what we want. So that's what we did.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Early Tuesday morning, a small crowd of Balboa High School students assembled at the flagpole. Two Canal Zone police officers were there too. In case things got rowdy, Jim and his friends raised the American flag. They knew they were breaking the rules and disobeying the governor's orders. But that was kind of the point. Jim says that he was the ringleader of the operation.

[Jim Jenkins]

I got the group together to raise the flag. So what would you call that? Again, we weren't looking for trouble. We were looking for a resolution to not having our flag.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

After the students went to class, some school officials came out and quietly lowered the flag, hoping the protest had run its course. Not even close. Seeing the flagpole empty again, some students ran out and raised a smaller American flag. This time, about 150 Balboa High students gathered around the flagpole and spontaneously recited the Pledge of Allegiance. They ignored the principal's order to return to class. If the goal of the Balboa High flag protest was to get the Governor's attention, it worked. Worried about a confrontation, Governor Fleming told school officials and Canal's own police that not to break up the protest, let the teenagers have their moment. They could take down the flag later, after the students went home. But the students never went home. After the school bell rang at 3 o', clock, even more students joined the throng at the flagpole Some of their parents came too. At the Canal Zone commissaries, there was a rush on American flags. One store sold 144 large flags in six hours. American flags were hung from balconies and waved from car windows. At sundown that evening, the Zonian students and adults solemnly lowered the American flag outside the high school, as was custom. But the protest wasn't over. The governor hadn't changed his mind about flying the American flag, so they weren't going anywhere. About 25 students kept an all night vigil at the flagpole. Their parents and supporters brought blankets and warm food. They were prepared to stay as long as necessary to get the governor to change his mind. News of the flag protest at Balboa High School spread quickly into neighboring Panama City. But there, the motivation for the student protest wasn't understood as a patriotic desire to fly the American flag, but as a colonialist refusal to fly the Panamanian flag. Jim Jenkins swears that he and his classmates had no issue with the Panamanian flag. If there were two flagpoles in front of Balboa, Jim says they could have raised both flags. What ticked Jim and his classmates off was having no American flag at all.

[Jim Jenkins]

Well, we were strictly protesting the governor's decision not to allow an American flag at an American school. You know, if he had said that we're going to put in two flag poles at the schools, but until we do we can't fly the flag, we would have probably accepted that. None of this was anti Panama. It was all probably American school being proud of the Canal, proud of the school, proud of America and wanting to have our American black.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

But again, that's not the message that made it to Panama City. Radio stations railed against Canal Zone administrators who refused to follow an agreement reached a year earlier between the American and Panamanian presidents. Both flags were supposed to fly at all public buildings. Panamanian newspaper editorials called out the callous Zonian students who'd rather skip school than go to class under a Panamanian flag. Rimsky Sucher says that he and his classmates at the Instituto Nacional heard about the flag protests at Balboa High School the next day, Thursday, January 9th. It was all they could talk about at school.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The Instituto Nacional was a school that had a tradition of teachers really educating us about Panama's internal political situations and especially about the relationship between the US And Panama. There was a lot of emphasis on that relationship. So I was very involved in student political activities.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

This wasn't the first time that flags had been a political Flashpoint in Panama. In 1958, a group of Panamanian college students crossed into the Canal Zone and planted dozens of small Panamanian flags in the grass. The message was the Canal Zone should belong to Panama. The 1958 flag protest started peacefully but turned ugly when Panamanian National Guard troops clashed with the students. A year later, anti American riots broke out in Panama City when the US Authorities refused to fly the Panamanian flag alongside the American flag in the zone. The rioters tore down the American flag outside the US Embassy and marched toward the Canal Zone, intent on planting more Panamanian flags. But again they were repelled by armed troops, both American and Panamanian. The clash convinced President Eisenhower that something needed to be done. It was Eisenhower in 1960 who made the first pact with Panama to fly both flags in parts of the Canal Zone. President Kennedy expanded the order in 1963, but it still wasn't in place by 1964, two months after Kennedy's assassination.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The flag has always been something very important to Panamanians. For all six years of high school, the idea of going back to the Canal Zone and planting the flag was an ever present thought.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

As Rimski remembers it, the decision that day to march on the Canal Zone was completely spontaneous. No one at the Instituto Nacional organized it. No one planned it. One minute Rimsky was sitting in chemistry class, the next he and his friends were asking the teacher if they could leave. They weren't the only ones. Other Instituto Nacional students had already met with the school director to get his blessing for a counter protest. The plan was simple and direct. The students of the Instituto Nacional would carry a Panamanian flag into the Canal Zone and demand it be raised in front of Balboa High School. I mean, what could go wrong? If any of the Panamanian students or school administrators thought this was a wildly inflammatory move, no one objected. The director even gave the students the school's historic Panamanian flag kept inside a glass case.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

It was a silken flag, so more delicate than your regular cotton flag. And it also had the Panamanian seal in the middle of it and the words Instituto Nacional on top of it. It had been used at some US protests during the 1950s by the Instituto students. So it was in a very delicate state. But it was also a very important flag for those Instituto students because of what it meant.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

A little before 5pm on January 9, around 200 teenagers from the Instituto Nacional, including our friend Rimsky, crossed 4th of July Avenue and entered the Canal Zone. They carried hand painted signs reading Panama is sovereign in the Canal Zone and Only the Panamanian flag. Leading the pack was a group of students probably proudly displaying the school's historic Panamanian flag. The Canal Zone police were warned of the approaching students, but told not to engage with them. The police observed from a distance, ready to intervene if things got out of hand. The students didn't want to provoke the police either, so they took pains to remain calm and respectful as they marched deeper into the the Canal Zone.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

The way they marched towards the zone, it was so orderly, so calm, so peaceful. When they came close to Gorgas Hospital, they even stopped and kept a moment of silence for the people that were sick in the hospital. They sent the Panamanian national hymn in front of the Governor's mansion very quietly, very respectful, very respectful. Very much into knowing what they were doing and offering sound arguments on why they were doing it to the people that were involved there.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

In a celebratory moment, the Panamanian students walked up the steps of the Canal Zone administration building and posed for a group photo. In the black and white picture, they look like a bunch of kids on a field trip. Down the hill, just a short walk from the administration building was Balboa High School School. The Zonians had no idea the Panamanian students were coming. It would not be a pleasant surprise. The flag protest at Balboa High School began as an emotional response to the Governor's order. Students like Jim Jenkins just wanted the American flag to fly in front of his school. He says he had no gripe with Panama, but that's not how the Panamanian students read it to them. The Balboa High protest was the latest in a long line of insults against their country and their flag. And now the two groups of teenagers were headed towards a historic confrontation. Looking back more than 60 years later, Jim wishes things could have turned out differently.

[Jim Jenkins]

If I could go back to the first week in January, I probably would have thought a little bit more about how we handle it. It would have been great if we could have joined forces, come in and say, hey, let's fly both flags. We would not have objected. We would have had to figure out how to do it. If I could have figured a way to do it, I would have.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

But instead of finding a peaceful resolution, a schoolyard scuffle over a flag was about to trigger an international political incident.

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

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[Jim Jenkins]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Jim Jenkins]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

January 9, 1964 was day three of the flag protest at Balboa High School in the Canal Zone. After school, the crowd around the flagpole swelled to its largest size yet. There were between 400 and 500 Zonians of all ages, adults, teenagers, grade school kids. They held American flags and sang patriotic songs, giddy with their collective act of civil disobedience. The whole point of the protest was to convince the Canal Zone governor to let them fly the American flag in front of the high school. But as of Thursday afternoon, the governor wasn't budging. At 6:15pm Governor Fleming broadcast a statement. The flag agreement is a valid commitment of our government.

[Ryan Seacrest]

We Americans in the zone have an.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Obligation as citizens to support that commitment, regardless of our personal beliefs.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I hope that we Americans will conduct ourselves with reason and in an emotional.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Situation, successfully avoid emotionalism. Governor Fleming had no idea how emotional the situation was about to get. To the Zonians great surprise, they weren't the only ones protesting the that day, marching down the hill from the Canal administration building came a large group of Panamanian high school students carrying their protest signs. On a normal day, the Panamanian students would have been stopped immediately by Canal Zone police the second they stepped onto Zonian soil. But today, in hopes of avoiding a conflict, they were allowed to enter. And now the uniformed students from the Instituto Nacional were within sight of their Balboa High School. The mood around the flagpole shifted dramatically. The Zonians booed and shouted at the Panamanian students, and the Panamanian students hollered back, each in their own language, neither side truly understanding each other, each other each assuming the worst intentions. That's when the Canal Zone police finally stepped in.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

It was incredibly tense, and not only what you described, but also add to that mixture that the Panamanians did not speak English and the Sonians spoke little or no Spanish. So the communications between the police commander, Gareth Wall, and the institution students were done by an interpreter. And when you interpret, things kind of get lost in the mixture. Finally, the captain of the police decided to allow a small delegation of Instituto students close to where the American flag was flying in the staff of Balboa High School. So that meant escorting those students in the middle of a very aggressive, very tense crowd of adults and and also high school kids to get to the flag.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

As the rest of the Panamanian students stood back, five or six senior boys from the Instituto Nacional approached the circle of Zonians around the flagpole. They must have been terrified, but they wore stern looks of defiance as they gripped their school's historic Panamanian flag. Jim Jenkins was part of the delegation of Balboa High students and administrators who met with the Panamanians.

[Jim Jenkins]

They wanted to raise their flag. Obviously, with only one flagpole, that wasn't going to happen. And I explained it to them that that wouldn't happen. But they were more than welcome to stand on the steps with their flag, sing their national anthem. We had no objection to them stating their case that the country was Panama.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

The situation was volatile. The Zonians roared with disapproval as the Panamanians approached the base of the flagpole. The delegates from the Instituto Nacional later said that they were booed, pushed and insulted as they tried to make their way through the crowd. As Jim said, the hastily negotiated agreement was that the Panamanian students would hold up their flag, sing Panama's national anthem and go home. At least that's how the Americans understood it. Whether due to poor translation or not, the Panamanians decided to make a historic statement. Like the college students did back in 58. They wanted to raise the Panamanian flag alongside the American one. A heated discussion ensued between Captain Wall and the Panamanian students. Tensions ratcheted even higher. The crowd of Zonians squeezed in tightly around the Panamanian delegation and began to sing the American national anthem. Exactly what happened next is a matter of great contention. Fearing an Outbreak of violence. Captain Wall abruptly called off the ceremony and ordered the Panamanian delegation to leave. But they weren't having it. Instead, the Panamanian students tried to push forward toward the flagpole. That's when Captain Wall ordered his Canal Zone policemen, batons in hand, to, quote, escort the Panamanian student delegation back to their classmates. The police formed a. And with shouts of go. Go. They began to slowly push the Panamanian students backward. According to some reports, the police were joined by Balboa students and Zonian adults in the crowd who punched and shoved the Panamanian teens.

[Jim Jenkins]

I don't understand what was going on because as far as I could tell, there were no canals on students involved in that pushing and shoving. I know I wasn't.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

No one knows exactly what happened next. Every eyewitness has a different story. But in the chaos of the moment, as the Panamanian students were pushed backward through a row of bushes, two of them fell to the ground. And as they fell, the school's historic Panamanian flag was torn.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

It's one of the biggest mysteries that you can think of because you have the Panamanians saying that the Americans ripped it up. And then you have the Americans saying that the Panamanians fell as they were led away by the police from that area where tensions had been rising. And if you see the pictures, you can see the policemen that were putting the Panamanian inside students backwards, pulling them backwards with their batons, and they were not hitting them, but just pulling them back. And the students were moving backwards with the flag in front. And then you had the very hostile crowd also in the middle of the way.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

However it happened, the Panamanian students were stunned. They had promised the director of the instituto that they wouldn't even let the flag, fragile school flag, touched the ground. And now it was nearly ripped in half again. Jim Jenkins swears that it was never the intention of him or his Balboa classmates to desecrate the Panamanian flag.

[Jim Jenkins]

I have no idea. I actually have no idea. I'm sorry that anything like that happened because I respect the flag too much. I respect our flag. I respect their flag.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

The Panamanian students were enraged. They had tried to take a stand for Panamanian sovereignty, and they were attacked by the Zonians and their police. It wasn't enough to deny them the right to protest, but the Zonians had literally trampled on the Panamanian flag, the symbol of everything the students held sacred. Rimsky Sucre was right there. He wasn't part of the student delegation, but he remembers the explosion of emotions as word spread about what happened at the flagpole.

[Ryan Seacrest]

They said they tore our flag. They tore our flag. We were all angry, we were crying, and we stampeded towards Panama City from different places. The group I was in, the one very close to those carrying the flag, was planning to go to the Instituto Nacional to tell the rector and the teachers what had happened and to inform the media.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

News of the incident spread like wildfire. By the time Rimsky and his classmates made it back to the Instituto Nacional, there were already Panamanians in the streets. Panamanian radio stations reported the confrontation at Balboa High School, but the story got uglier and more violent with every retelling. Historian Wendy Tribaldos says that the media absolutely threw gasoline on the fire.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

Yes, they had a huge role, especially the radio at the time. The media people in Panama grossly exaggerated what was happening which contributed to the unrest that happened during that time. Especially during the 9th and 10th January, when things were really very intense in such a way that the US army intervened.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Triggered by the torn flag and stoked by the media, there was an unprecedented explosion of outrage in Panama City directed at the Americans and the Canal Zone. For three days, Panama City was engulfed in violence and chaos. Cars with Canal Zone plan were flipped over and burned. The Pan Am building was vandalized. Protesters hurled rocks and Molotov cocktails. Rooftop snipers took aim with hunting rifles. The U.S. army and Canal Zone police fired back with tear gas and live ammunition. Tragically, at least 21 Panamanians and four Americans died in the fighting. The first Panamanian casualty was a student named Ascanio Arosemena.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

He was a true leader in a youngster kind of way. He was a great dancer, and he was captain of the football team, and he was a volunteer for the Red Cross. And he was actually there helping his former Instituto friends during the riots that the bullet got to him. So, yes, he was a case of a true martyrdom for the country.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

In Panama, January 9th is observed every year as the day of the Martyrs. That's how Ascanio and the other Panamanians who died in the 1964 riots are remembered as martyrs for Panamanian sovereignty. That's the craziest part of this whole wild and tragic story. When Jim Jenkins and his friends met in the Balboa clubhouse and planned their patriotic flag protest, they never set out to change Panamanian history. But that's exactly what happened, because they didn't know that a few miles away, another group of impulsive teenagers was going to grab their own flag. And march into history. I'm looking at the COVID of Life magazine from that week. It's a photograph taken of 4th of July Avenue during the riots. It shows three young Panamanian men climbing a Canal Zone streetlight. Below them is a car in flames. The man at the top of the streetlight uses his belt to attach a little large Panamanian flag for Rimsky Sucre. That image brings back visceral memories, memories of three days of chaos that galvanized Panama like no other moment in its short history.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Every time someone climbed a fence with a flag, there was a cheer. Every time they climbed a pole, there was a cheer. The Panamanian people united like never before.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

In the wake of the flag riots, the President of Panama briefly severed diplomatic relations with the United States. A bold move for a small Latin American country. But a line had been crossed, and Panama refused to go back to the status quo. For decades, the US had ignored calls to renegotiate the Canal Treaty with Panama. The presidential order to fly both flags at Canal Zone buildings was supposed to smooth things over, but it backfired spectacularly. The riots were a wake up call.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

It came to this point, this had to happen, sadly, where people lost lives, both Panamanian lives and also American lives. And you also had all the physical destruction that accompanied the riots, that this had to happen for the US to react and think, okay, we might need to do something in Panama and try to not be the colonial power that we are.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

The US Government did come to the negotiating table. And through a long and arduous process, the Canal zone treaty of 1903 was replaced with a historic new agreement. In 1979, the US dissolved the canal Zone, returning the contentious strip of land to Panama. And on New Year's Eve in 1999, full control of the Panama Canal was finally handed over to Panama. Historian Marisa Lasso was 10 years old when the Canal Zone was finally opened to all Panamanians. She and her family went for a picnic to a hilltop park that Panamanians hadn't been able to access for 75 years.

[Marisa Lasso]

I remember vividly the happiness around me, my family happiness, everybody so happy that finally we could anchor in the Canal Zone. So this was a moment where people could go to places, parks to swim in, certain areas that you could not go before. Every Panamanian family will have a different story of how they entered the canal zone in 1979, how they fellow. We're going back to this important piece of our land.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

As Jim Jenkins said before, he wished things had gone differently in January 1960, 4. He wished there were two flagpoles outside the high school. He wished that his Balboa classmate and the Panamanian kids could have kept cooler heads and come to an agreement. When the Balboa High flag protest blew up into an international incident, Jim's name was all over the press. The situation became unbearable for him in the canal zone. A 17 year old kid being blamed for a political firestorm. Jim left the Canal Zone and went to live with a relative in Ohio. He didn't get to graduate with the rest of the Balboa high class of 1964. Jim later joined the military and has two master's degrees. Rimsky Sucher is now Dr. Sucher, a physician with a successful practice in Panama City. He's in his late 70s, but when he talks about politics, he still sounds like the teenage firebrand who marched into the Canal Zone with a hand painted sign and a crazy plan. Today, Panama is a sovereign nation. The Canal Zone is no longer a country within a country, just a park like neighborhood in Panama City. Under Panama's management, the Panama Canal has been humming along now for 25 years. For historian Wendy Tribaldos, it never ceases to amaze her that one of the most monumental geopolitical events in Panama's history was set in motion by teenagers.

[Wendy Tribaldos]

Being teenagers, and you must understand teenagers, they are very much into fighting for causes. And that's true yesterday and true today. They really believed in each other. Cause even if you do not agree with their position, with their Sonian position or with the Panamanian position, you can understand why they were thinking they were thinking and why they were behaving the way they were behaving. Yeah, you can see the teenagerism in both sides in different ways. But yes, you can see a typical teenage behavior, I guess into two. Two separate mind frames, two separate nationalities, two separate educational systems and way of looking at things. But yes, still teenagers.

[Aaron Burnett]

How about that episode, guys? And I wanted to ask you, do you have a favorite world flag?

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Ooh, that's a good question. Flags. Were you a flag kid? I was not a flag kid, but some kids love flags.

[Aaron Burnett]

No, but I had a neighbor who was, who you could show him a flag and he could tell you even the hardest ones. And he's the reason why I have my favorite flag which was the flag of Gibraltar. It has this castle on it and then it sits above this field of red. And then it has this golden key kind of dangling from the gates of the castle, which looks like almost like a zipper. You could unzip the castle it's one of the wildest flags there is, I think.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

I like the fun fact that Jamaica's the only flag without red, white or blue in it. Like, Jamaica's flag is just green, yellow and black.

[Jason English]

Yes.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

So that's like a fun flag fact.

[Aaron Burnett]

Yes, that is.

[Jason English]

I did not know that one. The Isle of Man flag.

[Aaron Burnett]

Oh, yes.

[Jason English]

Looks to me like three legs.

[Aaron Burnett]

Yeah. Like bent knee.

[Jason English]

Right?

[Aaron Burnett]

That's like, huh.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

I'm also from Chicago and I feel like in terms of a city with a flag, Chicago has a really good one that just makes a lot of appearances. Like, maybe it is like, I'm biased because I'm from Chicago, but it is the only city with a flag that. Personally, I know that is true.

[Aaron Burnett]

Same.

[Jason English]

So in the past, we've done very special characters. Everyone's always welcome to pick a very special character, but you can also pick a very special moment. This year we're amending the rules. This is a Zarin improvement for year three. So does anyone have either a very special character or a very special moment from this one?

[Aaron Burnett]

I would say for me, the very special moment, obviously, is that moment of peak conflict and drama. It's when the Panamanian high schoolers are marching to the Canal Zone with their silken Panamanian flag. Their eyes all filled with ardor and pride. I really love that. But then there's obviously the question of was their flag torn up? And I've watched 1960s civil rights flags, so I have to believe that there's a high likelihood that the Americans did seize that flag and rip it up. So that was my favorite.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

I know. That was kind of my instinct too, that people get heated. I was gonna say if you asked about very special characters, I was gonna say that original Panamanian flag, it sounds beautiful.

[Aaron Burnett]

Yeah, doesn't it?

[Jason English]

I could put this in either category. Special character or a special moment. If we're going special character, I wanna add historian Marisa Lasso, who. I like how we do this often here where we'll have an expert historian and then they become part of the story. They kind of crawl into the script and we get more of them in the third act. And so her talking about being 10 and being able to go into the Canal Zone for the first time, that was a very nice scene.

[Aaron Burnett]

Also, I'd never heard the term Zonians for people in the Canal Zone.

[Jason English]

I love that.

[Aaron Burnett]

It sounds like a sci fi name of off world people. It's like something from, like, Alien Earth, right?

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Yeah, it does. Zonians.

[Jason English]

Now, if you are new to this show, what we do here at the end, we have an in house casting director, Zarin, and we like to say these episodes often like, this should be a movie. And Zarin takes it one step further and says, who should be in that movie? Did you cast any of the key roles in this one?

[Aaron Burnett]

I did. And starting with the historic figure of Teddy Roosevelt who gives us the Panama Canal, I thought Andy Serkis, but with false teeth.

[Narrator (possibly Dave Roos or Chris Childs)]

Ooh, that's interesting because Andy Serkis is sort of like a small guy and I feel like people always think of Teddy Roosevelt as a big guy, but I'm like, he can rise to the channel.

[Jim Jenkins]

Totally.

[Aaron Burnett]

Thank you. Thank you for seeing it. And then for Jim Jenkins, the American who's on the side of the Zonians, Alex Lothar, who, if you don't know him, he's the principled rebel kid from the andor the series. He's the one who gives all the speeches about fascism. I thought he had just the right earnest energy because I did believe Jim Jenkins meant well when he was telling the story and recounting events. And then for Rimsky Sucre, I thought of there's this kid, Justice Smith. He's a Latin kid from Jurassic World, Fallen Kingdom. And I think he'd be perfect. He also has that same kind of like, earnestness. So there you go.

[Jason English]

Actual casting directors take note. Zarin's done the work for you.

[Aaron Burnett]

Yes, it's right there.

[Jason English]

Very special Episodes is made by some very special people. This show is hosted by Danishworth Saren Burnett and Jason English. Today's episode was written by Dave Roos. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Editing and sound design by Chris Childs. Additional editing by Mary Dew. Mixing and mastering by Chris Childs. Original Music by Elise McCoy. Research and fact checking by Dave Roos and Austin Thompson. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Special thanks to our voice act, Chris Childs and Josh Fisher. I am your executive producer. We'll see you back here next Wednesday. If you'd like to email the show, you can reach [e-mail] Very Special Episodes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this fall, take care of the little ones in the family with baby club Savings now through November 4, spend $25 on select Baby Club products and save $5. Shop for items like Pediasure bottles, Pedialyte powder packs, Huggies, baby wipes, Huggies diapers, Gerber puffs and Gerber pouches. And save $5 when you buy $25 or more on participating products. Offer ends November 4th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four no fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 12:31 see paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 get ready to power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2. Power up the visuals with 4K support and a bigger, more vivid screen. Power up the fun with exclusive new games like Mario Kart World and Donkey Kong bonanza.

[Jason English]

Nintendo Switch 2 all together, anytime, anywhere.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Games rated E to E10 games and systems sold separately. Compatible TV required for 4K display.

[Marisa Lasso]

Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just stop sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[Jason English]

This is an iHeart podcast.