Podcast Summary: Noble Blood – "Very Special Episodes: When Big Bird Went to China"

Podcast: Noble Blood
Host(s): Dana Schwartz, Saren Burnett, Jason English
Episode: Very Special Episodes: When Big Bird Went to China
Date: September 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Noble Blood ventures off the usual historical royal path to explore a surprising piece of cultural diplomacy: how American television icon Big Bird—and legendary comedian Bob Hope—helped bridge deep divides between China and the United States in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The hosts trace the creation, impact, and lasting cross-cultural legacy of Bob Hope on the Road to China and the Emmy-winning special Big Bird in China, illustrating how a Muppet could become an unexpected ambassador during a pivotal era in international relations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Tension and Opportunity of US–China Relations Post-1970s

• Historical Context: The episode starts (02:29) by situating us in 1979—the US had just reopened relations with China after decades of Cold War estrangement. A group of Americans, notably not diplomats but entertainers, arrive in Beijing.

  • “A lot was riding on this plane and the Americans on it.” (02:40, Dana)

• Atmosphere of Suspicion: American visitors were heavily surveilled.

  • “From the moment we arrived there, we were under such suspicion and surveillance.” (03:39, Bob Mills, Hope’s writer)

2. Bob Hope’s Diplomatic-Cultural Mission

• Who Was Bob Hope: An American comedy icon, largely unknown in China (05:04)

  • “Bob Hope was a household name...hosted the Oscars 19 times, performed for thousands of American troops.” (05:07, Dana)

• TV as Cultural Bridge: Hope aimed for television ratings, but also inadvertently became a goodwill ambassador.

  • “Ratings. The whole country is wondering. China... just pure ratings. That’s what he lived for.” (11:50, Bob Mills)

• Firsts and Roadblocks:

  • “For Hope to get to China, he had to get letters…from two former Presidents and a former Secretary of State. Nothing like getting Henry Kissinger’s blessing before you can go tell some jokes.” (12:41, Dana)

• Filming in China:

  • Performances included disco duo Peaches and Herb, ballet star Mikhail Baryshnikov, and—crucially—Big Bird (15:27).
  • “He knew he had to bring people who could defy the language barrier. And that's why Big Bird was there.” (15:44, Dana)

3. Big Bird: More Than a Muppet

• Origins and Puppet Tech:

  • Carol Spinney’s dedication as the original Big Bird highlighted (16:06–18:45). Operating the costume was physically demanding:
    • “Spinney would step into orange pants and three toed slippers...hold his right arm straight up and use his hand to move Big Bird’s mouth…” (17:40, Dana)

• Children’s Universal Response:

  • “As soon as the kids saw what this was, language went out the window...kids are going to love.” (19:44, Bob Mills)

• Crowd Control Issues: Massive crowds of children followed Big Bird in Beijing, to the anxiety of authorities.

  • “They would just appear out of nowhere...we almost fill that [Tiananmen Square] up with kids because kids come out of the woodwork, you know, to see what this Big Bird was.” (20:15, Bob Mills)

• Authorities Remain Sensitive:

  • Chinese police demanded the erasure of footage they deemed too politically charged—even relatively innocuous jokes at landmarks like Democracy Wall (21:04–21:55).

4. Spinning Off: Big Bird’s Own China Special

• Transforming Motivation: After Hope’s special, Spinney wanted to return for more than ratings; he wanted real connection (24:33–26:00).

• Plot of “Big Bird in China” (1983):

  • Big Bird and Barkley the dog travel across China, helped by a Chinese girl, Shufu, in search of the legendary Phoenix (27:02–31:59).
  • The adventure leads to cultural discovery and friendship—culminating in a heartfelt message:
    • “The Phoenix tells Big Bird that, in fact, she had planned it that way all along…he’s learned about China by seeing it himself. By meeting a new friend.” (31:20, Dana)

• Production Challenges: The team faced censorship, harsh conditions, food issues, and physical demands of the costumes (28:53–29:53).

  • “Carol had to carry a suitcase full of peanut butter and crackers to eat instead.” (28:56, Dana)
  • “I knew that if I fell out of that boat in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like a stone.” (29:45, Brian Muehl)

• Enduring Magic: The special received an Emmy and drew audiences in both countries—despite broadcast limitations in China (32:33).

5. Impact on Children and Cross-Cultural Perception

• Personal Testimony: Shanghai native Zhu Ming recalls watching Big Bird in China:

  • “When we saw it for the first time, all our attention was really, really drawn to the big bird. My cousin and I, we constantly argued about if the Big Bird was for real or like someone was performing it.” (34:40, Zhu Ming)

• Big Bird as Cultural Ambassador:

  • "Some of the Chinese may think Big Bird is President of the United States, or at least a semi-official State Department emissary. A Muppet without portfolio." (32:20, quoting Tom Shales)

6. The Next Step: Creating China's “Sesame Street” – Jímàjiē

• Rise of Localized TV: By the late 1990s, China was ready for its own Sesame Street (38:18–49:10).

  • Concerns about cultural imperialism were mitigated by an authentic partnership and a locally tailored show.

• Involving Big Bird: Chinese kids “considered Big Bird to be…the best.” (45:08, Cooper Wright)

  • Big Bird, or Dà Niǎo (大鸟), became a regular on Jímàjiē.

• Casting Big Bird:

  • Carol Spinney coached hundreds of Chinese actors for the role.
  • In a poetic twist, Zhu Ming—the boy who had been transfixed by Big Bird as a child—was chosen to perform Dà Niǎo (46:27–51:55).

7. Reflections and Legacy

• The Power of Gentle Diplomacy:

  • “To reduce Big Bird to a non-threatening bundle of yellow feathers would be to underestimate him. When he walked down the street, he drew crowds...Big Bird had the power to bring people together. And he still does...” (51:13, Dana)

• Global Citizenship Through Shared Values:

  • “It is about sharing something that we think is really wonderful invention...that highlights the best of America but...allowing another country to take it and make it theirs.” (51:29, Cooper Wright)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Big Bird’s Universal Appeal:
  • “It doesn’t matter what the bird is called...you look at Big Bird and kids are going to love.” (19:44, Bob Mills, 19:44)
• On the Artistry of Puppeteering:
  • “He’d roller skate in [the costume]. It was definitely a good workout for his arm. He always did a beautiful job.” (18:45, Brian Muehl)
• Production Peril:
  • “If I fell out of that boat in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like a stone.” (29:45, Brian Muehl)
• Childhood Wonder:
  • “…we constantly argued about if the Big Bird was for real or like someone was performing it. In our impression, America was like a developed country with high techniques. So we were even talking about if the Big Bird was performed by robots.” (34:40, Zhu Ming)
• Diplomacy, Muppet-style:
  • “When kids meet Muppets ...they see this huge range welcoming something that’s completely different from themselves, and that ability to embrace and enjoy those differences, that’s probably the ultimate diplomacy of Muppets.” (30:41, Brian Muehl)
• Reflection:
  • “It warms your heart. I mean, that’s what heartwarming means.” (51:57, Dana Schwartz)

Noteworthy Segments and Timestamps

• 02:29 – Arrival of Bob Hope and crew in Beijing
• 03:39–04:25 – Americans under surveillance, the comedic mission
• 05:04–05:52 – Who was Bob Hope in the US and why China was a challenge
• 11:50–12:06 – Why Hope wanted to go to China
• 13:55–16:06 – Bob Hope’s “ambassador” role and Big Bird’s introduction
• 17:14–18:45 – Big Bird’s operation and Carol Spinney’s artistry
• 19:44–21:04 – The effect of Big Bird in China and authorities’ nervousness
• 24:33–26:38 – Spinney’s motivation for “Big Bird in China”
• 27:02–31:59 – Plot summary and hardships filming “Big Bird in China”
• 32:33–34:40 – Reception of Big Bird in China; child’s firsthand account
• 38:18–51:55 – The genesis and making of China’s Sesame Street (Jímàjiē), Big Bird’s casting, and legacy
• 51:57–54:05 – Reflections on the lasting value of cultural exchange through children’s television

Conclusion

The story of Big Bird Goes to China is a vibrant testament to the soft power of children’s television, the tenacity of creators like Carol Spinney, and the delight of cross-cultural connection. Across closed borders and mistrust, a yellow Muppet—steered by dedicated hands—became a bridge for understanding, empathy, and enduring childhood wonder. As Dana Schwartz sums up:

“People aren’t so different. We can all connect across the world.” (52:10, Dana)

For further suggestions or story ideas, the hosts welcome listener emails at veryspecialepisodesmail.com.