Very Special Episodes: When Big Bird Went to China

Summary

Podcast Summary: Noble Blood – "Very Special Episodes: When Big Bird Went to China"

Podcast: Noble Blood
Host(s): Dana Schwartz, Saren Burnett, Jason English
Episode: Very Special Episodes: When Big Bird Went to China
Date: September 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Noble Blood ventures off the usual historical royal path to explore a surprising piece of cultural diplomacy: how American television icon Big Bird—and legendary comedian Bob Hope—helped bridge deep divides between China and the United States in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The hosts trace the creation, impact, and lasting cross-cultural legacy of Bob Hope on the Road to China and the Emmy-winning special Big Bird in China, illustrating how a Muppet could become an unexpected ambassador during a pivotal era in international relations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Tension and Opportunity of US–China Relations Post-1970s

• Historical Context: The episode starts (02:29) by situating us in 1979—the US had just reopened relations with China after decades of Cold War estrangement. A group of Americans, notably not diplomats but entertainers, arrive in Beijing.

  • “A lot was riding on this plane and the Americans on it.” (02:40, Dana)

• Atmosphere of Suspicion: American visitors were heavily surveilled.

  • “From the moment we arrived there, we were under such suspicion and surveillance.” (03:39, Bob Mills, Hope’s writer)

2. Bob Hope’s Diplomatic-Cultural Mission

• Who Was Bob Hope: An American comedy icon, largely unknown in China (05:04)

  • “Bob Hope was a household name...hosted the Oscars 19 times, performed for thousands of American troops.” (05:07, Dana)

• TV as Cultural Bridge: Hope aimed for television ratings, but also inadvertently became a goodwill ambassador.

  • “Ratings. The whole country is wondering. China... just pure ratings. That’s what he lived for.” (11:50, Bob Mills)

• Firsts and Roadblocks:

  • “For Hope to get to China, he had to get letters…from two former Presidents and a former Secretary of State. Nothing like getting Henry Kissinger’s blessing before you can go tell some jokes.” (12:41, Dana)

• Filming in China:

  • Performances included disco duo Peaches and Herb, ballet star Mikhail Baryshnikov, and—crucially—Big Bird (15:27).
  • “He knew he had to bring people who could defy the language barrier. And that's why Big Bird was there.” (15:44, Dana)

3. Big Bird: More Than a Muppet

• Origins and Puppet Tech:

  • Carol Spinney’s dedication as the original Big Bird highlighted (16:06–18:45). Operating the costume was physically demanding:
    • “Spinney would step into orange pants and three toed slippers...hold his right arm straight up and use his hand to move Big Bird’s mouth…” (17:40, Dana)

• Children’s Universal Response:

  • “As soon as the kids saw what this was, language went out the window...kids are going to love.” (19:44, Bob Mills)

• Crowd Control Issues: Massive crowds of children followed Big Bird in Beijing, to the anxiety of authorities.

  • “They would just appear out of nowhere...we almost fill that [Tiananmen Square] up with kids because kids come out of the woodwork, you know, to see what this Big Bird was.” (20:15, Bob Mills)

• Authorities Remain Sensitive:

  • Chinese police demanded the erasure of footage they deemed too politically charged—even relatively innocuous jokes at landmarks like Democracy Wall (21:04–21:55).

4. Spinning Off: Big Bird’s Own China Special

• Transforming Motivation: After Hope’s special, Spinney wanted to return for more than ratings; he wanted real connection (24:33–26:00).

• Plot of “Big Bird in China” (1983):

  • Big Bird and Barkley the dog travel across China, helped by a Chinese girl, Shufu, in search of the legendary Phoenix (27:02–31:59).
  • The adventure leads to cultural discovery and friendship—culminating in a heartfelt message:
    • “The Phoenix tells Big Bird that, in fact, she had planned it that way all along…he’s learned about China by seeing it himself. By meeting a new friend.” (31:20, Dana)

• Production Challenges: The team faced censorship, harsh conditions, food issues, and physical demands of the costumes (28:53–29:53).

  • “Carol had to carry a suitcase full of peanut butter and crackers to eat instead.” (28:56, Dana)
  • “I knew that if I fell out of that boat in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like a stone.” (29:45, Brian Muehl)

• Enduring Magic: The special received an Emmy and drew audiences in both countries—despite broadcast limitations in China (32:33).

5. Impact on Children and Cross-Cultural Perception

• Personal Testimony: Shanghai native Zhu Ming recalls watching Big Bird in China:

  • “When we saw it for the first time, all our attention was really, really drawn to the big bird. My cousin and I, we constantly argued about if the Big Bird was for real or like someone was performing it.” (34:40, Zhu Ming)

• Big Bird as Cultural Ambassador:

  • "Some of the Chinese may think Big Bird is President of the United States, or at least a semi-official State Department emissary. A Muppet without portfolio." (32:20, quoting Tom Shales)

6. The Next Step: Creating China's “Sesame Street” – Jímàjiē

• Rise of Localized TV: By the late 1990s, China was ready for its own Sesame Street (38:18–49:10).

  • Concerns about cultural imperialism were mitigated by an authentic partnership and a locally tailored show.

• Involving Big Bird: Chinese kids “considered Big Bird to be…the best.” (45:08, Cooper Wright)

  • Big Bird, or Dà Niǎo (大鸟), became a regular on Jímàjiē.

• Casting Big Bird:

  • Carol Spinney coached hundreds of Chinese actors for the role.
  • In a poetic twist, Zhu Ming—the boy who had been transfixed by Big Bird as a child—was chosen to perform Dà Niǎo (46:27–51:55).

7. Reflections and Legacy

• The Power of Gentle Diplomacy:

  • “To reduce Big Bird to a non-threatening bundle of yellow feathers would be to underestimate him. When he walked down the street, he drew crowds...Big Bird had the power to bring people together. And he still does...” (51:13, Dana)

• Global Citizenship Through Shared Values:

  • “It is about sharing something that we think is really wonderful invention...that highlights the best of America but...allowing another country to take it and make it theirs.” (51:29, Cooper Wright)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Big Bird’s Universal Appeal:
  • “It doesn’t matter what the bird is called...you look at Big Bird and kids are going to love.” (19:44, Bob Mills, 19:44)
• On the Artistry of Puppeteering:
  • “He’d roller skate in [the costume]. It was definitely a good workout for his arm. He always did a beautiful job.” (18:45, Brian Muehl)
• Production Peril:
  • “If I fell out of that boat in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like a stone.” (29:45, Brian Muehl)
• Childhood Wonder:
  • “…we constantly argued about if the Big Bird was for real or like someone was performing it. In our impression, America was like a developed country with high techniques. So we were even talking about if the Big Bird was performed by robots.” (34:40, Zhu Ming)
• Diplomacy, Muppet-style:
  • “When kids meet Muppets ...they see this huge range welcoming something that’s completely different from themselves, and that ability to embrace and enjoy those differences, that’s probably the ultimate diplomacy of Muppets.” (30:41, Brian Muehl)
• Reflection:
  • “It warms your heart. I mean, that’s what heartwarming means.” (51:57, Dana Schwartz)

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Noteworthy Segments and Timestamps

• 02:29 – Arrival of Bob Hope and crew in Beijing
• 03:39–04:25 – Americans under surveillance, the comedic mission
• 05:04–05:52 – Who was Bob Hope in the US and why China was a challenge
• 11:50–12:06 – Why Hope wanted to go to China
• 13:55–16:06 – Bob Hope’s “ambassador” role and Big Bird’s introduction
• 17:14–18:45 – Big Bird’s operation and Carol Spinney’s artistry
• 19:44–21:04 – The effect of Big Bird in China and authorities’ nervousness
• 24:33–26:38 – Spinney’s motivation for “Big Bird in China”
• 27:02–31:59 – Plot summary and hardships filming “Big Bird in China”
• 32:33–34:40 – Reception of Big Bird in China; child’s firsthand account
• 38:18–51:55 – The genesis and making of China’s Sesame Street (Jímàjiē), Big Bird’s casting, and legacy
• 51:57–54:05 – Reflections on the lasting value of cultural exchange through children’s television

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Conclusion

The story of Big Bird Goes to China is a vibrant testament to the soft power of children’s television, the tenacity of creators like Carol Spinney, and the delight of cross-cultural connection. Across closed borders and mistrust, a yellow Muppet—steered by dedicated hands—became a bridge for understanding, empathy, and enduring childhood wonder. As Dana Schwartz sums up:

“People aren’t so different. We can all connect across the world.” (52:10, Dana)

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For further suggestions or story ideas, the hosts welcome listener emails at veryspecialepisodesmail.com.

Transcript

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[A]

1979, a plane touched down in Beijing carrying a group of Americans. This was kind of a big deal at the time. Just three months earlier, a US Embassy had opened in mainland China, the first since diplomatic relations between the countries had come to a screeching halt in the 1940s, America and China were trying to become cordial again. Maybe not besties, but you know, the kind of acquaintances who can spot each other at the same party without finding some excuse to leave. A lot was riding on this plane and the Americans on it. After they landed, the group got their passports stuck, stamped, and a Chinese chauffeur drove them to their hotel. They settled in and got to see the sights nearby. Tiananmen Square, the Forbidden City. So few Americans had this kind of access to the heart of China. They took it all in, but they noticed something felt off.

[B]

From the moment we arrived there, we were under such suspicion and surveillance.

[A]

That's Bob, one of the Americans on the trip.

[B]

After we were there for a week, we're in the limo, our Chinese limo they had assigned us.

[A]

Bob says one of his colleagues in the limo felt that chilling sensation, too, that everywhere they went, someone was watching them bleeds over.

[B]

And he says, we have to be careful what we say. And I said, what do you mean? He said, I think this car is bugged. He's whispering, you know. He says, be very careful, and anything important will be outside when we talk and not in the car or in our rooms.

[A]

It was uncomfortable, sure, but not entirely unexpected. They were Americans, after all, in a country that was still under authoritarian rule and had a long legacy as a violent police state. But what made it all especially odd was that these American visitors weren't esteemed diplomats. They weren't politicians or CIA operatives. They didn't even work for the government. They were comedians.

[B]

We, of course, are in the laughter business. It's pure and simple. We find humor in things.

[A]

Bob's full name is Bob Mills. He was a TV writer there with an American crew to film a comedy special with that colleague of his who'd warned him about surveillance in the limo. And that colleague was the legendary comedian Bob Hope. In the US, Bob Hope was a household name. Over the course of his career, he starred in almost 300 TV specials, hosted the Oscars 19 times, and performed for thousands of American troupes.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Bob Hope. I want to tell you, I hope you all saved your ticket stubs, because we're awarding the Oscars by number tonight.

[A]

But in China, he was unknown, and filming a comedy special where he'd have to integrate himself into the culture, meet the locals, and share what he saw with Americans back home under a famously secretive regime was no small task. But he wasn't doing it alone, because there was another American traveling around China with our Bobs. Their piece de resistance, a Cultural ambassador like no other. 8ft, 2 inches. Home address, 123.5 Sesame Street, Sing Pra La la la Me, me, me, me, me, me. That's right. At one of the most delicate times for international relations, the United States sent Bob Hope to China with the ultimate wingman, Big Bird. And the two would play a surprisingly influential role in bridging a massive cultural divide. Welcome to very special episodes, an I Heart original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this is Big Bird Goes to China.

[B]

Welcome back. She's Dana Schwartz. He's Aaron Burnett. I am Jason English. I have to say, I'm a former season pass holder at Testame Place, the theme park in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

[A]

Are you really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Really. It's lapsed. It's lapsed. But for a time, that was the most impressive thing about me.

[A]

This is embarrassing. Cause I didn't even know that existed.

[B]

Well, we gotta get the word out more because Langhorne, it's not exactly Orlando or Anaheim, but could be a theme park hub in the Northeast.

[A]

Well, any one of these days.

[B]

Could I give you a few Sesame street facts that only an insider like myself, Please. I love insiders information. Okay. Oscar the Grouch. Famously green.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Originally orange.

[A]

What?

[B]

Really? It's like the Muppet Multiverse.

[A]

Is he green because of all the goo in the trash? Is that the whole thing?

[B]

He started orange. Jim Henson decided after the first year he should be green. They wrote it into the show that he went to some swamp and came back green. So he has a transformation.

[A]

So he's canonically he's still orange. He's just orange underneath. Green swamp.

[B]

Big Bird's friend, Snuffleupagus. We all know and love Snuffy. How's the first name? Any guesses?

[A]

Edward Barnaby.

[B]

They're oddly pretty close. Aloysius. Aloysius. Snuffleupagus. Aloysius. I love the name Aloysius. I used to tell people that was my name.

[A]

Wow. Aloysius. I feel like I missed out. I didn't get this before I named my baby. That should have been on the list.

[B]

That's a great one. Classical name. Good nickname. At Mental Floss, we used to have a pop culture spelling bee at our live events. And Snuffleupagus used to get a lot of people out, so. Oh, yeah. I don't think I could get close.

[A]

Don't think I could nail it at all. Spelling was my worst thing in school.

[B]

Yeah. S, N, U, F, F, L, E. Snuffle. U, P A G, U S, maybe. Is it. Is it snuffle up ugus? Yeah, there's. There's an up in there. Okay. That's how I'm going to remember it now. One more. I think we should do a whole episode about this story. I got this on Snopes. In 1991, not long after Jim Henson had died, a student convinced graduating seniors at Pinkerton Academy in New Hampshire that they should all write Save Ernie on their hats. And a newspaper took the photo and ran with it. And it became a story that the Sesame Workshop was going to kill off Ernie to talk about the death of Jim Henson. People were outraged. You know, talk radio calls. And so they had to put out a statement saying, we have no plans to kill Ernie.

[A]

We never planned to kill Ernie.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

What a prank. Let me take you back to 1949, 30 years before Bob Hope goes to China with his film crew, his writers, and his secret weapon. After a bitter civil war, the Chinese Communist Party, led by Mao Zedong, took control of mainland China. The US didn't love it. The Cold War was underway, and the spread of communism was seen as a threat. Threat. The US soon removed their embassy and had no ties with Mao's government. International conflict raged on. There was the arms race, the space race, the Red scare, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. Through all this, relations between the US and China were icy. But things started to thaw when Richard Nixon came into office. Nixon wanted to drive a wedge between China and the Soviets, so he basically slid into China's DMs. In 1972, he made his historic trip to the country. Very important documents get signed, very important hands get shaken, and a very important step is taken toward diplomacy. It takes some time, but seven years later, in 1979, the US reopens an embassy on the mainland. Bob Hope sees an opportunity with relations between the US and China. GRID official again. He knows he has to go. Why?

[B]

Ratings. Television ratings. The whole country is wondering. China, we know something about it, but not much. So just pure ratings. That's what he lived for.

[A]

That's Bob Mills again, Hope's writer, tasked with helping to show Americans a piece of China and bring a slice of American comedy to China. In turn, this was a chance for television gold with China.

[B]

Nobody knew what was going on there ever. I mean, it was so secretive. And we were the first to show them up close what these things looked like and how the Chinese spoke and what they sounded like and what they laughed at.

[A]

This trip wasn't Hope's first stab at bringing the world to Americans TV screens. In 1958, he went on a State Department sponsored trip to Moscow. He made a special that one critic credited with penetrating the Iron Curtain. He gave viewers glimpses of American troops at an air base in Vietnam and on a remote island in the Indian Ocean. Hope was once called America's most prized ambassador of goodwill throughout the world. But for Hope to get to China, he had to get letters of support from two former presidents and a former Secretary of State. Nothing like getting Henry Kissinger's blessing before you can go tell some jokes. The situation was delicate, but In June of 1979, Chinese officials crossed the T's and dotted the I's on Hope's contract. Within 72 hours of the trip getting approved, the Hope touched down and started work on Bob Hope on the Road to China.

[B]

Hey, this is it. Peking, China. Amazing, isn't it? Just 10 years ago, who would have dreamt an American comedian would be standing here in Tiananmen Square saying whatever he pleased and photographing anything he pleased. In this fast moving world, radical changes can occur overnight. I guess that's what this trip is all about. Getting to know each other, talking and laughing and singing and dancing together the way good friends should.

[A]

Hope plays the part of tour guide, a singing, dancing, wisecracking American navigating a new place. He performs his own musical number on the Great Wall, challenges some kids to ping pong and shows us some Tai Chi. It's charming, but not all of it lands. Critics pointed out how it tended to rely on cliches of Chinese culture and how it felt deeply American. For better and for worse, every street corner was the setup for a potential every historical site an unwitting stage.

[B]

Our first stop is the Temple of Heaven, which was built in 1420. It was used by the emperors as an altar on which to seek heaven's blessings for events be to to come. One event they never anticipated was the appearance one day of a harmonious pair who will bring the blessings of disco to these beautiful surroundings. Here are peaches and herbs.

[A]

Hope pulled out all the stops. He rolled out the red carpet for celebrities like disco duo Peaches and Herb, country star Crystal Gale and ballet performer Mikhail Baryshnikov. And of course, Big Bird.

[B]

Hope knew that he had to bring people who could defy the language barrier. And that's why Big Bird was there. Look, we still have this audience. Maybe I could do a show for him right now myself. Here I am with Big Bird, leaving the Peking Hotel for a stroll down the Main drag, Xiang Road.

[A]

By the time Hope made his trip to China, Big Bird was already a fixture in US households. Sesame street had been on the air for a decade and it represented a radical shift in children's programming. Big Bird and his Muppet friends lived on a fictional block in New York that took after working class neighborhoods like Harlem. He was part of the Sesame street gang from day one, thanks to a puppeteer named Carol Spinney. Spinney was Big Bird. He invented the character, giving Big Bird the personality of a gregarious six year old kid. And he'd perform as Big Bird for almost half a century.

[B]

I just feel that I'm one of the luckiest birds in the world now. I'm an old bird myself. But am I thinking of retiring? I don't think I want to. As long as I can hold my.

[A]

Head up this high, I want to continue.

[B]

Carol was just this very effusive, friendly. Of course, he was a great artist.

[A]

That's Brian Meal. He's a puppeteer who worked alongside Spinny for a number of years. If you're a hardcore Sesame fan, you might know Mehle as the lively orange and white sheepdog Barkley.

[B]

His only speaking voice was and he had to express everything the way a dog would. He and Big Bird were really good buddies.

[A]

Like Barkley, Big Bird is a body puppet, not a hand puppet. To become Barkley, Meal would get on all fours with his arms on stage stilts. To become Big Bird, Spinny would step into orange pants and three toed slippers. Then a helper would hoist the puppet's body, covered in 4,000 yellow feathers over his head. Spinny's human head reached Big Bird's chest. So to operate the bird head, he had to hold his right arm straight up and use his hand to move Big Bird's mouth as he spoke. All while keeping his pinky finger pointed so it could maneuver the puppet's eyelids. The best way to gauge his own movements was by looking at a monitor inside the puppet. It showed the director's view of the scene. Spinny would read from a script pinned inside the costume. Being Big Bird was an art, but it also might as well have been an Olympic sport.

[B]

Carol was incredible in that costume. I mean, he'd roller skate in it. He did all sorts of things in that costume. It was definite good workout for his arm. He always did a beautiful job for many, many, many years.

[A]

Any joy or wonder that Big Bird inspired through TV screens was absolutely earned. He was a towering, warm, awe inspiring presence. A puppet with the heart of a kid and the movements of a trained professional. So just imagine it. You're a kid going about your day in Beijing. You've never seen this character on tv, and then all of a sudden, there he is, thousands of yellow feathers, expressive, childlike, inviting, and walking down the street with a film crew and a random white dude. Here's Bob Mills again.

[B]

As soon as the kids saw what this was, language went out the window, because it doesn't matter what the bird is called, or you look at Big Bird, and kids are going to love.

[A]

That character with his beak reaching far above any crowd. Big Bird was easy to spot as Hope, Spinney and the rest of the team filmed in popular locations across the city, kids and their parents following along.

[B]

They would just appear out of nowhere. The word would spread in Tiananmen Square, where they had that big riot. You know, it's a huge square. I mean, it's like eight football fields all connected together. And we almost fill that thing up with kids because kids come out of the woodwork, you know, to see. See what this big bird was.

[A]

Spinney got a kick out of these crowds. The Chinese police, not so much.

[B]

You could see all kinds of guys in suits watching. You know, it's like Secret service everywhere. The authorities are very aware of control and where people go and how they move around and stuff. And once something like that happens, they get very nervous.

[A]

Spinney had agreed not to walk around in his costume unless they were rolling cameras. Chinese authorities also kept tabs on what Hope's team filmed. They ordered Hope to hand over the reels of a performance at the Democracy Wall, a relatively new landmark where Chinese people could freely pin up posters sharing their ideas and political beliefs. The wall would stay up for about a year before the government shut it down. Hope's bit in front of the wall riffed on a man who was complaining about the city's traffic and pollution.

[B]

And Hope says, boy, Peking sounds terrible. He says, oh, I'm not from Peking. I'm from Passaic, New Jersey. That was the joke, right?

[A]

It's not the most clever joke in the world, and it's innocent enough. But Chinese authorities said the clip had to go when it was all said and done. Hope and his team had filmed in China for a month before packing up and heading back home. The special generated a huge amount of hype before even airing. On July 5, 1979, a photo of Big Bird, Bob Hope, and a crowd in Beijing was splashed on the front page of the New York times. And on September 16, three months after touching down on that plane in Beijing, Bob Hope on the Road to China aired on NBC.

[B]

Our table set with China.

[A]

So let's all Hope's journey to China may have ended, but Big Birds was just beginning. Well, come on.

[B]

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[C]

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[A]

Around the time of Bob Hope's Special, China was entering a new era of foreign policy. Mao Zedong's decades long rule ended with his death in 1976. New leadership took up the reins and sought to jumpstart the country's economy, encourage foreign trade and open UP Society. Before 1978, you could characterize television in China as pure state propaganda. You had a few hours of government broadcasts in the evenings, some images of Chairman Mao over the national anthem, the occasional state sanctioned communist opera. But new laws passed in 78 ended the communist Party's monopoly over the media. All of a sudden TV stations could develop new programs and appeal to broader audiences. More people at home were watching dramas and love stories, but politicians still heavily censored non state tv. The vast majority of people lived below the poverty line and in rural areas where it's uncommon to have a tv. Despite all this, there was something pulling Carrol Spinney back when he got home to New York, he had an idea. Big Bird should return to China and star in a second TV special.

[B]

Now where have you been?

[A]

Spinny's desire to go back to China was pretty different from Hope's original mission. Spinney fell in love with China and its people on his first trip, and he wanted to feel that magic again. Big Bird seemed like his best bet for booking a return floor flight. So he pitched the idea to Sesame street brass who ran with took three years. But in 1982, another flight with American entertainers landed in Beijing. And this time Big Bird was calling the shots.

[B]

I have a copy of the original pre shooting scripts. It's courier font and I think the draft is April 14, 1982.

[A]

That's Brian Meal again. He's the puppeteer who played Big Bird's canine friend, Barkley.

[B]

I was all in just about anything related to Muppets at that point. So it was a great opportunity and I just jumped at it.

[A]

Instead of starting in the streets of Beijing, this new special begins in Big Bird's hometown, New York City. Alongside Barkley, he visits Chinatown to see a scroll in a shopkeeper's storefront with a drawing of a beautiful bird, the Chinese Phoenix. It's a legendary bird known as the Empress of the Southern Skies. Big Bird can't stop thinking about the phoenix. But the only way to track her down is to follow the instructions on the scroll.

[B]

And I guess that scroll is very old and valuable, right?

[A]

Yes, it is. And there isn't much chance you'd lend.

[B]

It to a bird, is there?

[A]

There not much chance.

[B]

Even a bird who promised to take extra good care of it and not get it dirty or anything. A bird who only wants to find.

[A]

The phoenix bird so that he can tell her that American birds think that Chinese birds are just swell.

[B]

A bird who would guard it with his very life and whose mission to.

[A]

Find the Phoenix just might be the.

[B]

Biggest step forward in the friendship between China and America that the world.

[A]

Take it already. It's pretty on the nose. Big Bird and Barkley pack their bags, head to China and go on a sightseeing tour. Eventually, they end up at a school where they befriend Shufu, a six year old girl played by Uyang Linzi, who helps Big Bird and Barkley on their quest.

[B]

Maybe I could help you. Could I speak English?

[A]

Well, then you could help us, but not until after school. Yes, it is pretty adorable. But behind the Scenes making this new friendship between Big Bird, Barkley and Shofu look seamless wasn't always so smooth.

[B]

It was pretty stressful at times. You know, some days are really tough.

[A]

Brian says their translators doubled as informed performance and tried to control where and what they could film. The country was so poor at the time that the food was usually unspiced and totally bland. The cast and crew got worn out and struggled to recharge. Carol Spinney carried a suitcase around full of peanut butter and crackers to eat instead. One windy day, grains of sand and dust from the Gobi Desert got into the tape.

[B]

We lost an entire day of shooting.

[A]

Another time, Brian and Carol had to take a tiny boat down a flooded river, all while in their Muppet costumes. Brian had to stuff his costume with kid floaties.

[B]

I knew that if I fell out of that boat in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like a stone.

[A]

All of this happened over the span of three weeks. Miel talks about it like a war vet in the trenches with his crew in arms.

[B]

I think Carol and I, you know, we've been in combat together, brother.

[A]

But talking to him, you get the sense that there was something really special at the heart of this mill. Smini and Ouyang were a group of unlikely friends on a journey to find something familiar. That feeling drove the whole production. It was the feeling that motivated Spinny to pitch it to begin with. And the experience had echoes of Bob Hope's time with Big Bird in Beijing. Wherever Big Bird went, people followed. They connected with him.

[B]

We always had a huge group of people that just saw it was going on on and came and watched. They just were laughing and having a great time. And there's a universal message there. When kids meet Muppets and they see different species, different colors, different attitudes, they see this huge range welcoming something that's completely different from themselves, and that ability to embrace and enjoy those kind of differences, that's probably the ultimate diplomacy of Muppets.

[A]

Barkley, Big Bird and Shufu eventually do find the Phoenix. But when they stand in front of her, Big Bird realizes he doesn't have so many questions for her anymore. He's learned about China by seeing it himself. By meeting a new friend, the Phoenix tells Big Bird that, in fact, she had planned it that way all along. In the final scene, the trio walks along the Great Wall as the camera pans out to show them as small specks against a breathtaking landscape. The last words before the credits are from Shou Fu.

[B]

I love you, big.

[A]

But in a 1983 article in the Washington Post, Pulitzer Prize winning film critic Tom Shales wrote, ronald Reagan has never.

[B]

Been to China, but Big Bird has been there twice. By now some of the Chinese may think Big Bird is President of the United States, or at least a semi official State Department emissary. A muppet without portfolio.

[A]

The special was celebrated for building a bridge across cultures from filming with a Chinese co star to collaborating with a Chinese production crew and engaging local children. It won the 1983 Emmy for Outstanding Children's Program. Across the U.S. viewers got another glimpse of China in their homes and in China. A dubbed version aired on the national broadcaster. It didn't reach as many kids as it did in the us but one still remembers it to this day. That's Zhu Ming. He said, hi everyone, my name is Zhu Ming and I call from Shanghai, China today. And that's Yixiao Ren, our translator. That time when I watched the Big Bird in China, it brought me an extraordinary, beautiful childhood memory. Zhuming says he saw the special in Shanghai when He was about 13 years old. He's almost 50 now and he's lived in Shanghai his whole life. If you ask him about how the city was then compared to now, he'll point out little things. He says the streets were much narrower, that people mostly biked instead of drove, that there were markets to shop at. But not every block was lined with stores like they are now. Life was simple. One day after school, Xiuming and his cousin turned on the TV in his parents living room. But instead of the regular children's programming, everybody, this is the Great Wall of China. I did not know that a bird could be this big. And I thought it was real. Like I thought it was a real bird. And we were talking like it was so amazing. They were actually watching a rerun of Big Bird in China. It wasn't dubbed in Chinese either. It was the original English language version. And no yellow feathers on our main character. Their TV was in black and white. He dragged his uncle into the living room at one point to help translate the English. But even in grayscale and in a foreign language, Xiuming was hooked. When we saw it for the first time, all our attention was really, really drawn to the big part. My cousin and I, we constantly argued about if the Big Bird was for real or like someone was performing it. In our impression, America was like a developed country with high techniques. So we were even talking about if the Big Bird was performed by robots. But I just could not explain how it could be performed. Performed. How would a human character perform this Big Bird. If Carol Spinney, the quote human character performing this Big Bird, had one goal. It was to connect with young people in China through his character, the same way he did with viewers in America. Young people like Xiuming, a kid who grew up in Shanghai who happened to turn on the TV and see a new exciting character in his family's living room. It was this cool domino effect. Comedian goes to China for the ratings. Big hearted puppeteer goes back for the kids. But the dominoes don't stop there. If Big Bird really wanted to make an impact, he'd have to relocate.

[B]

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[A]

You could learn a little Chinese.

[B]

I could?

[A]

Sure. Listen.

[B]

That means hello and goodbye.

[A]

Sesame street has long been the gold standard for children's programming. According to a study by the American Economic association. The program has had a sizable impact on preparing kids for elementary school since it was created in 1969. By the late 1990s, Sesame street had expanded to 20 different countries. Canada, Germany, Brazil, the Philippines, the United Arab Emirates. This was the longest street in the world and it kept getting longer. An American led Sesame street special in China every few years was fine, but it was time to level Up. It was time for China to have a Sesame street of its own. Recognize that tune? Maybe you'll be a little more familiar with the original.

[B]

Rubber Ducky, you're the one.

[A]

You make bath time lots of fun. It's Rubber Ducky. The Chinese dubbed version you heard would air on Jimmajay. Jimmajay means Sesame Street. Jimmajay was a Chinese co production of Sesame street that ran from 1998 to 2001. It was written and produced by a Chinese team, featured Chinese actors, and was tailored to the lives of Chinese children. My name's Cooper Wright. I worked at Sesame street for about 25 years. So on China, I was the executive producer in charge of the Chinese co production. When the groundwork for the series was first laid in 1994, some Chinese officials were worried that the show would assert too strong an American influence. We were so concerned about cultural imperialism. That's something that Sesame Workshop has, you know, going way, way from the very beginning, been concerned about with co productions. But the show had a champion on the inside. At the network, Sesame street was collaborating with in Shanghai, Ye Qiao, the director of the children's department. He was convinced a Chinese co production was a smart move, that it would be good for the country. We wanted to use it for the Chinese children for educational purpose. And so it was very appealing to me because of this. It took four years to develop the idea and get through red tape. But a deal was struck between Shanghai tv, Sesame street and the show's sponsor, General Electric. The hybrid Chinese American leadership found a studio and set the show's educational agenda. For example, between 1980 and 2016, the Chinese government imposed a policy that restricted most families to having one child as a means, means of population control. So the Jim and Jay team prioritized lessons like sharing and social skills for only children. A team was hired to work on handwritten scripts that got translated and faxed back and forth between Shanghai and New York for edits. We broke two fax machines throughout the production process. A lot of the show's material came from the archives of American Sesame street, dubbed in Chinese. Cooper says a third of the show was made locally and was totally original. The team invented new Muppet characters like a blue furry pig named Huhuzu and Shu Metzi, a three year old monster with pigtails who takes after Elmo. She's the same color red as Elmo, but they wanted a strong female character and there was space for a third Muppet in the Chinese cast. The first one we thought about was Pandas because that was the most popular figures in China. Jim and J's team ran focus groups with kids and showed them photos to see who they liked. Pandas, monkey kings and another more institutional character in the mix, Big Bird. We weren't sure if they would think that was too American and we said what do you want? The kids response told a different story. They wanted Big Bird because they considered Big Bird to be, as they called it, the best. They loved Big Bird. While other co productions had large avian characters, none had their own Big Bird. And adding a new one to Jimma Jay would mean getting special permission from Sesame street brass. But it worked out. And the last resident to move onto China's Sesame street would be an 8 foot tall yellow feathered friend named Daniao. The big for Daniel is actually the same age as them and Danielle is like very cute, very childlike. It's like very relatable for children. Spinny couldn't be in two countries at once though. The team needed to find someone who could fill his large orange three toed slippers. Carol Spinney was Big Bird and Kevin Clash, who is Elmo. They came over to China to audition to help them audition those puppets. And that was incredible. And we auditioned hundreds of people. About 400 Chinese actors showed up to audition. Eventually that number got whittled down and a smaller group of actors tried to follow Spinny's movements, put their own spin on them and embody the essence of Big Bird in front of the man who invented him. There'd never been another Big Bird before and he hadn't done international casting. So he was really excited to be in China. He loved being there. But he said, well what do I do? And I said, well you have to. You've got to tell them who Big Bird is. You've got to explain Big Bird. When the auditions first started, the actors did some puppeteering 101. They used their hands to mimic talking. They put ping pong balls on their fingers to imitate eyes. But as they got farther into the audition process, they also had to try to capture something else. Something that went beyond hand movements and arm placements. Cooper remembers how Spinny opened up to the group, sharing what he believed made Big Bird Big Bird. There was an intense level of specificity and care. While Spinny spoke, the room went silent. He talked about Big Bird's sweetness and generosity, his soft high voice, how he's naive but also curious and gentle, how he moves slowly but doesn't lumber. I looked around, my jaw dropped. I looked around and everyone else was just including Kevin. We were like mesmerized, like oh wow. So I mean we all knew Big Bird. Of course we know Big Bird, but we had never heard Carol describing Big Bird. And it translated beautifully because you could see the puppeteers understood it. One puppeteer nailed it. A 21 year old man who was working in Shanghai as a mechanic while going to acting school at night. And I still remember Carol spinning at the time. I remember when he talked to me, he said, I really like you because I knew that you were a mechanic. I used to be a mechanic as well. That's right, the little boy who watched Big Bird in China as a kid in Shanghai, Xu Ming. When he first showed up to audition with that group of 400 actors, Xiuming didn't know that this was an audition for the character he watched in black and white in his family living room years before. It was just an open casting call. He was an aspiring performer trying to get his face and his name out there. But when he met Spinny face to face and saw him doing the movements that brought the character to life, he knew he wanted the job. I was really, really, really excited to see him. And when he was performing, I remember thinking to myself that I am going to be the Big Bird. I must be the Big Bird. The last day they announced that I got the role, I was in shock. And I still remember because the translator at that time was a famous female director from a famous show in China. And I remember she like ran to me and she forgot to speak Chinese with me because she was just so excited and she just like throw at me a bunch of of English words but she was crying and I figured that I probably got the role. It was in all a very, very unforgettable memory and experience for me. Zhuming got fitted for his own yellow feathered costume and worked on strengthening his arm. At last he began to play the role that changed his life trajectory and defined his career. Just like Carol Spendley. I would love to perform Big Bird for the rest of my life. Big Bird first touched down in China at a tense time just months after the US embassy reopened in 1979 after decades of isolation. Maybe things were so touchy that the moment called for an ambassador so harmless that nothing could go wrong. But to reduce Big Bird to a non threatening bundle of yellow feathers would be to underestimate him. When he walked down the street, he drew crowds. When he sang with kids, they smiled. And when he showed up on TV screens, he inspired awe. Big Bird had the power to bring people together. And he still does just take a visit to his home at 123-½ Sesame Street. You'll see that two friends don't have to be the same to get along. Some friends are furry, others are feathered. Some are tall and some are tiny. Their colors span the rainbow. They thrive in their differences and find common ground in community. It is about sharing something that we think is really wonderful invention and that highlights the best of America. At the same time, being generous and allowing another country to take it and make it theirs rather than shoving it down their throat. As an American thing, it is a lot more about sharing than anything else. Cooper never expected that her work in church would lead to the creation of another Big Bird. But when it did, she also couldn't confine Daniao to live in Big Bird's shadow. He was always going to find his own light for the workshop. It does fulfill their mission. I'm not there now, obviously, but, you know, they're working in refugee camps now. They're doing all kinds of work with a national rescue committee. And before I left, we were working in Pakistan, we were working in Afghanistan. That's not for monetary reward. That's to expand the mission. But you know, when you say that, you have to be careful because it's not pushing out an American mission. It's more sharing with the world what we all value, what everybody values, helping children reach their highest potential. This story is everything I love about Sesame street because it's curious, it's heartwarming. And at the end of the day, it's just like, it warms your heart. I mean, that's what heartwarming means.

[B]

But also, I agree with you. It's the whole sharing of human values. It really does. I felt better after listening to this episode. It did literally warm the heart.

[A]

I read this episode and I was just like, people aren't so different. We can all connect across the world.

[B]

We need it now. Bring it back. Speaking of, Zarin, did you do any casting in case we wanted to redo this one? Revisit? Yes, I did, actually. And this one had a lot of Bobs. There was Bob Mills, the writer for Bob Hope. There was Bob Hope. There was Bob Meal for Barclay. I was just like, so many Bobs. But okay, I got it down to the. For Bob Hope, I thought you could either do one of two directions. Either shrink down Vince Vaughn because he's got the right energy, or you go with Bill Murray, who's more size accurate.

[A]

I had a pitch for Bob Hope, which is, oh, do you let's have a career resurgence for Zach Galifianakis.

[B]

Oh, wait a minute. Let's see if he could do sort.

[A]

Of a serious role, because who knows? Who knows what he's capable of?

[B]

I think he's got the range and he's got the right energy also. Once again, he likes people the way Bob Hope likes people.

[A]

I like that you can sort of turn it on, but there's sort of a darkness underneath it where you're like, what's going on?

[B]

Exactly. A little aggression almost in his comedy. As for Big Bird, obviously Carol Spinney is Big Bird, but I thought, okay, for this, we need someone who can do it. And I turn to forgetting Sarah Marshall's puppet show master, Jason Seagal. He's got the bona fides. I mean, boom, good one.

[A]

Jason Segel loves the Muppets famously.

[B]

Also. Exactly right. I mean, like, how do we skip over him for this role? So, boom, he's got it. And that's pretty much for the Bob Mills writer for Bob Hope. I kept trying to think about this. I couldn't get somebody who felt like the writer. I was like, I don't know, man. You may have to play yourself. So that's all I got for the casting. But I really enjoyed this one because it had all of my interests. Bob Hope, Nixon, Chairman Mao, disco, and Big Bird. I mean, like, it's a grab bag. Nixon, I think, sneaks his way into most of our episodes, so in the same capacity. That guy's everywhere. How about very special characters, Jason?

[A]

Don't be ridiculous. There truly is only one very special character in this episode, and it is Big Bird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It would be a disservice to anyone to try to compare them to Big Bird.

[B]

Totally. And the effort that it takes. I had no idea that he was holding his hand up the whole time. That blew me away. Having to work out arm strength to play Big Bird.

[A]

I mean, that's a fun lie that they tell us that someone is inside holding Big Bird's head. Because obviously it's just Big Bird doing it. But that's like a cute cover story.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Way to pull that one. I like that. Sesame Street Workshop. I'm going to end with a call to action here. We've covered some good children's books and programming. We had a Nancy Drew last year. We've got a Goodnight Moon episode coming up. Sesame street today, et. If there's some beloved book or show or movie from your childhood you want us to cover, shoot us an email. Very special episodesmail.com and you know we're always looking for story ideas. Yeah, hit us up. Our ears are open. Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. Today's episode was written by Dylan Hoyer. It's good to have Dylan back in the mix. Last year she wrote the Joyride about the time Amelia Earhart and Eleanor Roosevelt snuck out of the White House for an impromptu flight. And very special thanks to our translator, E Xiao Ren. Couldn't have done this without her. Our show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Saren Burnett and Jennifer Jason English. Our producer is Josh Fisher. Story editor is Aaron Edwards. Editing and sound design by Chris Childs Mixing and mastering by Behead Frazier Additional editing by Mary Dew Original Music by Elise McCoy show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Our executive producer is Jason English. Like I mentioned during our banter, if you ever want to email the show, hit us up at Very Special episodesmail.com Very Special episodes is a production of I Heart Podcasts.

[A]

Check out the new season of Reasonable Doubt, now Streaming on Hulu, L.A. s most successful attorney Jack Stewart defends a young actor accused of murder. Follow Emma Yahtzee, Coronaldi, Morris Chestnut, Joseph Sakura, and guest stars Kash Doll and Lori Harvey as they fight their personal battles in the spotlight. Spotlight of the year's most sensational trial in the pursuit of justice. Every move counts. Reasonable Doubt Season 3, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo plus curated movies, new series and sports highlights. No credit card, no login, just TV that gets straight to the good stuff. Grab the remote, press play and start watching TiVo plus free binge worthy always on. Check us [e-mail] this is an iHeart podcast.