Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein

Summary

Nobody Should Believe Me - Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein

Released on April 10, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 15 of Nobody Should Believe Me, host Andrea Dunlop engages in a profound conversation with Rachel Bernstein, a therapist specializing in cults and coercive control behaviors. This episode delves into the intricate mechanisms of manipulation and the psychological underpinnings that cause individuals to maintain belief systems despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Drawing parallels between cult dynamics and Munchausen by Proxy (MBP) abuse, the discussion provides valuable insights for survivors, family members, and professionals alike.

Rachel Bernstein’s Background and Expertise

Rachel Bernstein begins by sharing her personal connection to the subject matter, recounting how a sibling's involvement in a cult during her upbringing sparked her interest in understanding coercive behaviors. She explains,

“I thought, what is that? I mean, are there people out in corners, like, trying to hypnotize people? Because you don't see that.” ([04:37])

This curiosity propelled her into pursuing a master’s degree and eventually specializing in therapies related to cults and narcissistic personality disorders. Rachel emphasizes the subtlety and insidious nature of cult-like behavior, noting that even professional environments can harbor such dynamics.

The Professor Cult Incident

A pivotal moment in Rachel’s career was her realization that a professor teaching group therapy at her master’s program was unintentionally fostering a cult-like environment. She describes:

“Just because someone’s wearing a lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them.” ([06:30])

Rachel conducts a social experiment by fabricating a traumatic story, which results in immediate favoritism and emotional support from the professor and peers. This experience underscored how easily trust and manipulation can be intertwined, even in professional settings.

Understanding Supporters and Family Dynamics

Andrea Dunlop relates Rachel’s experiences to her own struggles with her sister Megan’s MBP abuse, highlighting the similarities in how families become fractured and supportive networks either perpetuate or challenge the abusive behavior. Rachel explains the psychological barriers that prevent family members from seeing the truth:

“A lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they’re protecting themselves.” ([19:26])

She discusses the "sunk cost fallacy," where long-term involvement with a loved one makes it increasingly difficult to sever ties, especially when families invest emotionally and spiritually over years.

The Role of Medical Professionals

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the alarming tendency of some doctors to unwittingly support MBP abusers. Rachel attributes this to self-serving motivations and the need for professional validation, stating:

“They really are dangerous. Like, you have to rearrange your entire worldview if you think that someone who presents as a nice, sympathetic, loving mom can be the most terrifying person you’ve ever met.” ([25:09])

She underscores the necessity for medical professionals to adopt a more skeptical and evidence-based approach when dealing with suspected abuse cases to prevent further harm.

Supporting Survivors and Their Families

Rachel offers compassionate strategies for assisting survivors and their families in breaking free from abusive dynamics. She emphasizes the importance of community support and validating the survivors' experiences without letting empathy for the abuser interfere with protecting the child. Andrea adds:

“None of that compassion or empathy that you may feel for a perpetrator should ever interfere with protecting the child.” ([14:24])

Rachel advocates for creating safe environments where survivors can express their complex emotions and gradually build the courage to detach from the abuser while retaining cherished memories.

Helping Individuals Leave Cults

The conversation explores practical steps to aid individuals in leaving cults or abusive relationships. Rachel points out the significance of timing and personal readiness, noting:

“It’s never too late to have insight. It’s never too late to suddenly feel brave enough to really see.” ([52:18])

She advises creating a “glide path” for those ready to leave, ensuring they have access to resources and support systems to prevent isolation and facilitate healing.

Compassion and Boundaries with Perpetrators

Andrea and Rachel discuss the delicate balance between feeling compassion for perpetrators and maintaining strict boundaries to ensure safety. Rachel suggests:

“You can hold on to those pieces [good memories] while still keeping yourself distant and safe from the person and their disorder.” ([47:48])

This approach allows survivors to reconcile their love for the perpetrator with the need to protect themselves and their children, fostering emotional healing without compromising safety.

Final Thoughts and Resources

As the episode concludes, Rachel provides resources for those seeking help, including her therapy practice and her podcast Indoctrination. Andrea emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for individuals to come forward, even if they have previously been unsupportive or unwittingly complicit in the abuse.

Rachel affirms:

“It really is never too late to be able to have insight. It’s never too late to change your mind.” ([53:18])

Key Takeaways

• Subtle Manipulation: Cult-like behaviors can manifest in various settings, including professional environments, making them challenging to identify and address.

• Support System Dynamics: Families often struggle with internal conflicts when dealing with abusive members, influenced by psychological barriers and emotional investments.

• Role of Professionals: Medical and mental health professionals must remain vigilant and evidence-based to prevent unintentional support of abusers.

• Survivor Support: Creating supportive communities and validating survivors' experiences are crucial for healing and breaking free from abusive dynamics.

• Continuous Accessibility: Providing ongoing support opportunities ensures that individuals have avenues to seek help whenever they are ready to leave abusive relationships.

Notable Quotes

• Rachel Bernstein on professor cult incident:

  “Just because someone’s wearing a lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them.” ([06:30])

• Rachel on protecting perpetrators:

  “A lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they’re protecting themselves.” ([19:26])

• Andrea on compassion and safety:

  “None of that compassion or empathy that you may feel for a perpetrator should ever interfere with protecting the child.” ([14:24])

• Rachel on never being too late:

  “It really is never too late to be able to have insight. It’s never too late to suddenly feel brave enough to really see.” ([52:18])

Resources

• Rachel Bernstein Therapy: rachelbernsteintherapy.com
• Indoctrination Podcast: Available on all major podcast platforms
• Munchausen Support Nonprofit: Support groups for survivors and family members

Conclusion

Case Files 15 provides an enlightening exploration of the intersections between cult dynamics and Munchausen by Proxy abuse. Rachel Bernstein's expertise offers a nuanced understanding of the psychological and social factors that sustain abusive relationships, while Andrea Dunlop’s personal experiences add depth to the conversation. This episode serves as a vital resource for anyone seeking to comprehend and combat the devastating effects of such manipulative behaviors.

Transcript

[Andrea Dunlop]

Foreign hello, it's Andrea and I am so excited to share today's conversation with Rachel Bernstein, host of the Indoctrination podcast. Rachel is a therapist who specializes in cults and cult adjacent behaviors, and today we are digging into coercive control manipulation and tackling the question of why people go on believing things even when they've been presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary. Which is a question that feels pretty timely right about now. Our sixth season is coming in June and we've got lots of great stuff for you in the meantime, including our deep dive into the medical kidnapping lawsuit against ratty Children's in San Diego, a look at the Bill Gibson case, which was featured in the new Netflix show Apple Cider Vinegar, and some other fascinating tidbits. If you are a subscriber on Apple or Patreon, we're talking about the Peacock documentary the Anatomy of Lies, which is about the Elizabeth Finch case this month, as well as bringing you some updates on the ongoing Kowalski saga in Florida. And just as a reminder, as a subscriber, once again, you'll get all eight episodes of season six on the day they launch in June. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Rachel Bernstein. Just a quick reminder that my new book, the Mother Next Medicine, Deception and Munchausen by Proxy is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon Editor's pick for nonfiction and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into mvp. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, you should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and [e-mail] and we will bring my co author Detective Mike Weber on for a little book Q and A and post retirement. Tell all special thanks for your support.

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[Andrea Dunlop]

Welcome, Rachel Bernstein. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Oh, it is my pleasure. This is such an important discussion. It taps into so many different issues. And it was a pleasure to speak with you before, and I was really looking forward to what I think is going to feel like a continuation of our conversation today.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yes, absolutely. So we met when I was on your wonderful podcast, which I highly recommend. I think listeners of Nobody Should Believe Me would love this show. Indoctrination. So you are a therapist, and you have. You have an area of expertise and a specialization around cults and working with family members who are impacted by this cult survivors and other folks that just really have maybe cult y personalities in their families, folks with narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic traits. And so there is so much crossover with what we talk about on this show in terms of family dynamics, in terms of gaslighting, just so many things. And I remember that when I first read about the cult connection in the Munchausen by Proxy literature that's been written by some of my academic colleagues, it was like all the lights went on in my brain because I think it is so helpful to have language for things, right. And to have sort of those. Those dots to connect. So can you tell us just a little bit about your work and what you do, and then we can dive into how this all. All ties together?

[Rachel Bernstein]

Y. Yeah, it's interesting because when I was growing up, I had a sibling who got involved in a cult. So it was sort of dinner table conversation about that this can happen to someone and they can get kind of.

[Unknown Speaker]

Plucked out of their own life and out of their own sense of reality.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And not know what's real and have.

[Unknown Speaker]

A whole misdirection about whom to trust and whom not to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And that it can be so compelling and so immediate and that you can.

[Unknown Speaker]

See this personality shift.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And I thought, what?

[Unknown Speaker]

What is that?

[Rachel Bernstein]

I mean, are there people out in.

[Unknown Speaker]

Corners, like, trying to hypnotize people?

[Rachel Bernstein]

Because you don't see that.

[Unknown Speaker]

So where are these people and how do they get their talons in?

[Rachel Bernstein]

And why is it that it's so effective?

[Unknown Speaker]

I realized as I was graduating with.

[Rachel Bernstein]

My teaching credentials, which I loved doing, and I, again, still do. I really wanted to do this work.

[Unknown Speaker]

We couldn't find resources at the time for, you know, therapists, counselors, social workers, anyone who kind of really knew about.

[Rachel Bernstein]

This in the 70s, 80s. And I thought, well, why don't I do this too? So I went on for a master's and then just really found it fascinating in Fact, the professor who taught the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Group therapy course in my master's program actually ran it like a cult, which was very interesting.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And that I. I think she didn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do that on purpose to teach a lesson. I just noticed, and I went to the dean to say, the following things are happening.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And the dean was actually pretty alarmed. And it helped me realize, too, that this can happen in so many different.

[Unknown Speaker]

Places and kind of under people's noses.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And under the guise of, like, teaching and with the trappings of it being something professional and with a teacher who's teaching at a therapy at USC in the master's program and should be able to be trusted. And so just because someone's wearing a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So just because someone's sitting in the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Therapist chair doesn't mean you can trust them.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Just even though someone has taken on.

[Unknown Speaker]

The role of parent doesn't mean you can trust them. And so how do you discern? So that sort of became my thing.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And that's why I decided, after 30 some odd years of doing this, that.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was listening to so many people's stories in my office and then on.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Zoom, and I thought, you know, I.

[Unknown Speaker]

Want other people to hear this because these are kind of cautionary tales.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And hearing how people also broke free, just how do you champion your own rights when it's hard to figure out.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who to lean on? Where does that power come from inside of yourself? And also who is out there who can help? And so understanding.

[Rachel Bernstein]

What is true about our natures as human beings like you.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I can say we know a.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Lot about manipulation and control and coercion.

[Unknown Speaker]

But we have this internal locus of.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Control that would stop us from using it against someone.

[Unknown Speaker]

Instead, we use it to teach and.

[Rachel Bernstein]

To prevent, which is a very different trajectory.

[Unknown Speaker]

And other people would say, oh, look, I have this knowledge, I have this skill, let me use it for my.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Own gain, which is a very different.

[Unknown Speaker]

Kind of personality and very scary.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Can you say, can you say more about that, your professor in your master's program? Because I think that's really interesting and I think it's an example of like, you know, we tend to think of cults as like the Netflix document, you know, like, compound. And it's a religious cult, and it's like this very sort of like, Hollywood depiction of it, right? And I think it exists in sort of cult like, dynamics, exists in a lot of other places. And so you tell us in what way that program started to feel like a cult to you.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So it Was a class instructing people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who were studying to become therapists about ways to run support groups.

[Rachel Bernstein]

You walk into a room, the professor is there and there is a circle.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of chairs as though it's a support group.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And we all sat down and we.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were told to share about ourselves.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So people started sharing, and it was fascinating. In the first class, there was already a hierarchy.

[Unknown Speaker]

There was already the more liked group, the people who had shared more, the people who had more tragedy, the people.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Who had more trauma, the people who revealed more about themselves, they were more liked.

[Unknown Speaker]

And that came through with smiles. And the teacher actually got up and.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Hugged a few people after they shared Two of the people, she said she.

[Unknown Speaker]

Couldn'T hear them speaking all that clearly. Could they move closer so they got a seat next to her? Then you could see the next class people who needed that, who needed to be like, at the cool kids table, or who just needed that affirmation or.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Needed her to be this parent because.

[Unknown Speaker]

She was older than other people in.

[Rachel Bernstein]

The room, by and large, she started.

[Unknown Speaker]

Taking people out for coffee. But only the people who had shared. Only the people who had something that.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Really was a trauma of some sort. And there were people who were.

[Unknown Speaker]

I could see their eyes trailing off as they were telling a story. And then their eyes would come back into the room and they would look to see if she was engaged in what they were saying. And if she seemed to not be.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So engaged, they would kind of turn.

[Unknown Speaker]

Up the volume on their story.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so there were people who would.

[Unknown Speaker]

Tell a story and then say, I.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Really, you know what?

[Unknown Speaker]

I want to add more to my story.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And when people say that, it could.

[Unknown Speaker]

Be that now they feel comfortable. It could be that they realize it.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Wasn'T compelling enough to get them a front row seat. So there was so much happening in that space. And I remember talking to a friend.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of the family, friend of my mom's actually, who was a psychologist for many years.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I was telling her about this and I said, you know, there's also this language of withholding and resistance. So if you don't share, you're withholding.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you're not being kind to the other people in the room who have shared.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So there was this guilt and a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sense of responsibility you then had to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Other people to share because after all, they did. So why do you feel like you can hide out and be selfish with your information?

[Unknown Speaker]

And then also, why are you being so resistant? What is it about your past that makes you so resistant to sharing? So the psychologist who I love, who is a Professor, she said, why don't.

[Rachel Bernstein]

You do a social experiment? This woman's not your therapist.

[Unknown Speaker]

These are not your friends. This is a class.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Make up a story.

[Unknown Speaker]

So I just went.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And the next time there was a class, I just made up a story, which was very uncomfortable for me because I'm a straight shooter. And I thought, but it's worth it for this experiment, because I was already planning to talk to the dean. I thought, let me have my material that I need to use to bring to him. So I just said, you know, that time that I talked about having that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Illness when I was young and I.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Almost died, and you know what?

[Unknown Speaker]

It made me fearful for the rest of my life.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Um, and it is true. I was very sensitive.

[Unknown Speaker]

I had Stevens Johnson syndrome when I was a year and a half, and it can be fatal if it's not treated and it leaves you. It left me with very sensitive skin and different physical issues.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But I got past it. And I just said, I have never gotten past it.

[Unknown Speaker]

The amount of attention paid to me.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Suddenly people got up.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was surrounded.

[Rachel Bernstein]

They hugged me.

[Unknown Speaker]

The teacher invited me to join for coffee later. I was seated closer to her.

[Rachel Bernstein]

If I needed that, I would have been in. And I would have thought, this is how I get what I need. And here I go, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

It was so dangerous.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I mean, Rachel, I'm sure you can probably guess where my mind is going hearing this story, that you've just completely pinpointed the reward that perpetrators of this abuse and folks that engage in Munchausen behaviors, where they're doing it to themselves, like, that is what you get, right? Like, that is the emotional reward, and it is very real, right? I mean, I think, like, that sort of sense of being taken care of. And if you. If you were, you know, because we always talk about how these behaviors are maladaptive coping mechanisms, right? And so, like, you can see how if someone who was wired that way had a little bit of that experience, that that might. And then was also a person that, you know, had these other sort of constellation of things that makes them engage in deception, how that could just get, like, ratcheted. Ratcheted. Ratcheted up. And I always. I always do, you know, try to bring this down to earth for people, because I think, especially at the extremes, you know, in the cases that we talk about where someone's harming a child, it seems such, like, such a baffling behavior. But I actually think that there is a pretty, like, basic human thing at the core of it, which is that, you know, people People do need love and care and belonging. And having a crisis is one way. It's not a good way, especially if you're manufacturing the crisis. But, like, having a crisis is one way to get that right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. Absolutely right.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it's interesting because even with Munchausen by Proxy, I could see.

[Unknown Speaker]

I could see feeling sorry for the person who engages in this, but it.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Feels to me, and I don't want.

[Unknown Speaker]

To say this in such a harsh.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Way, but it gets to, like, all.

[Unknown Speaker]

Bets are off when a child is harmed, when a child gets in the.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Way of this and is then inextricably tied. If someone were just out there needing a lot of attention, needing a lot because they felt very empty, I would offer help. I would feel compassion. You know, a lot of these things.

[Unknown Speaker]

That we hear about when people have their own issues or their own trauma.

[Rachel Bernstein]

History, you know, it is. It's an explanation, but it's not an excuse.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so that kind of distinction for me is where it shifts emotionally for.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Me, you know, it's hard.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's hard to have compassion after a while.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think however far your personal sense of compassion and empathy can extend to people who do horrible things, that. That's okay, right? Like, it's okay to feel like they're a human being. We don't need to, you know, like, it's. If you don't feel any compassion or empathy for a person who does that, if that's the extent that you can, then that's also fine, also very understandable. But none of that compassion or empathy that you may feel for a perpetrator should ever interfere with protecting the child. And, like, that is the important thing. And we cannot let those things be commingled. This is not. Yeah, it's like, this is not an excuse. It's not a reason. It's not by, you know, by all intents and purposes, is not a thing that can be treated or remedied. So. Because it's so such a compulsive behavior. Right? So, yeah, I mean, I think it's a. It's a fascinating question, but, yeah, I think we do have to, like. I think it is really important to draw lines in society and that there are certain things where if you do that to a child or if you do that to another person, you know, especially with children, like, okay, well, then you are not a safe adult. You should never be around children again unsupervised, ever. You know, you just. Like, I would like to see us seeing this in the same way that we do with, you know, with, with people who are sex offenders, right? Where it's like, okay, you can't go near a school anymore. You can't go in, you know, you can't, you can't be with your own children or any children unsupervised. And I just think we're very, unfortunately we're very far away from drawing that line as a society with these particular perpetrators. And I honestly think that part of the, that the cultiness is part of it. Right. I think they really are. Like this cult connection resonated so much for me when I first read it because not just looking for language to describe my sister Megan, but language to describe the people who had continued to support her despite so much evidence that this abuse was taking place and over a period of. And so much evidence of deception. Right. But yeah, I think I was really looking for like an explanation for, okay, I have watched her husband and you know her like his family, just watch this whole thing unfold over a period of years. And she's been investing. Investigated twice by like different, you know, there were reports that came from different hospitals. There's been four hospitals that have reported her. There was a child that died in between her two children. And you just think like, okay, how could you just watch this and still think there is nothing wrong? And you know, in the police, second, in the police investigation that happened with her second child, you know her, there was in the police report her father in law saying to the police, this is a witch hunt, just like last time. And I'm like, that is very like conspiracy language. Right. And so can you help us understand what is going on with the long term supporters? And I think there's like two kind of groups that I want to talk about separately. Like one is like the family members or people that are close to that person because of personal connections. And then I think there's like a whole other separate thing that goes on with the doctors who buy it. But yeah, for like the family members, like how can we understand what seems so baffling from the outside when you're sort of looking at the evidence that this person's been presented with.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So I think about the people who have cult leaders, let's say malignant narcissistic partners, people who engaged in abuse of.

[Unknown Speaker]

A variety of sorts who, let's say are in jail.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And then they still have the people outside the jail, outside the courthouse, chanting, showing their allegiance, setting up websites and support, raising money for their appeals.

[Unknown Speaker]

There is a part of people I.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Think that wants to not see. And when you decide that you don't.

[Unknown Speaker]

Want to see something, you can be.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Very good at keeping blinders on.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it's an important thing to look at.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Why some people do that. I see it as for some people.

[Unknown Speaker]

It would shake their foundation so much.

[Rachel Bernstein]

That they resist wanting to see. Other people are going to be worried about what it's going to make them aware of. Like, once you start to see, then.

[Unknown Speaker]

Will it have a domino effect that will be so devastating? Like all the times that you let.

[Rachel Bernstein]

That person be with your child and you didn't intervene.

[Unknown Speaker]

Now do you have to look at all of those times and all of the symptoms your child might have started to have and all the times you.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Didn'T jump in to protect them and.

[Unknown Speaker]

All the times maybe you had a sense or an inkling and your conscience was telling you something and you ignored it. That's also very hard to look at. So I think a lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they're protecting themselves.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And then you have the people, I.

[Unknown Speaker]

Think who are concerned, and rightfully so, that the system is going to be.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Against women and against mothers because it's by and large women who are engaging.

[Unknown Speaker]

In this, and not all, but most.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And then, yes, women are not believed.

[Unknown Speaker]

Women are not believed when they bring.

[Rachel Bernstein]

A story of rape to the courts.

[Unknown Speaker]

They're not believed when they go to the doctor about having certain symptoms and things are overlooked and they're told they're hysterical.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so I think there are people who get tangled in this in a way that gets messy because they're there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Championing the rights of women. And then there are other people who.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Just have a mistrust of the legal.

[Unknown Speaker]

System, have a mistrust of the medical system who are also involved in this.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But I do think that people who.

[Unknown Speaker]

Are close, like a father in law.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I think he might feel like he's.

[Unknown Speaker]

Being a really good person and he might feel like he is able to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Be the superhero here when everyone else.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is against someone and he just hasn't.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Seen it or he doesn't want to see it. So it's kind of for a lot of reasons, it winds up being something that at the end of the day.

[Unknown Speaker]

Leaves the child totally unprotected.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, I mean, that really resonates with me because I am just as we're talking about this, like thinking back to, you know, the last time that I saw any of these people face to face, which was this meeting that we had with the social worker, organized this family Meeting and it was complete debacle because my sister brought with her like her husband, her in laws, three of her husband's aunts, their friends. It was just like this entire entourage and it was just me and my mom and. And I just remember like we were trying to like, and this is so early. I mean this is 14 years ago. This is when, you know, this is with the first investigation. And I just remember like looking at my brother in law's mother, Ruth and just looking at her and being like, come on, Ruth, like, come on. Like just. She was the only one whose face just sort of seemed somewhat sympathetic when my mom and I were talking like the rest of emerg. Ugh. Ugh. These evil people, you know, are trying to. Trying to separate their, you know, daughter from her child because reasons, because that benefits them somehow. And it just like, you know, kind of this thing of like we're just really pleading, like why would we be doing this? Like, why would we be telling you that? Like, we know her entire history and we're scared and we're worried about her and we're worried about her son. And just I remember just thinking like, come on, like, you have to know there's something wrong here. And. And then like subsequently, you know, after the investigation wrapped to like nothing. They like told my sister get therapy and then her husband had discovered that some other deceptions. And he kind of came back around briefly and was like asking, you know, my dad for help and all this stuff. And we're like, okay, okay. He's seen it with his own eyes. She can't blame us for this. Like, okay, he's gonna like see that there's a problem. And then he just like went right back underwater. And I really think back so much on that, those kind of two moments, because I think those were like the last off ramps. Like, I remember you're talking in an interview about this sunk cost fallacy that like the longer people are in it, I mean, is that true? Like, how does someone get out? Like, how do people not just get deeper and deeper and deeper in.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So, right.

[Unknown Speaker]

So yes, there is the sunk cost fallacy.

[Rachel Bernstein]

It's also. It gets ramped up when it's not just that you're like putting your money into multilevel marketing. These are the people you love. These are the people who you're trying to protect or that you might have to look at having not protected. So I do think that it is very hard for people to be open to seeing some people are able and.

[Unknown Speaker]

They have more wherewithal they have more personal strength, they have more ability emotionally to take things on.

[Rachel Bernstein]

You're one of those people, and not everyone is like that. And there are a lot of people who would much rather just go back into the dark and do the la.

[Unknown Speaker]

La la la la.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Mary had a little. Because that's just where they need to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Live their life, because they think that's the only way for them to survive.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it could be that they just.

[Unknown Speaker]

Don'T have the emotional ability to have the courage or the strength to really.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Look what's also true.

[Unknown Speaker]

And this is actually why a lot.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Of cults and even narcissistic partners will.

[Unknown Speaker]

Often have the person they're controlling speak.

[Rachel Bernstein]

On behalf of them and speak on.

[Unknown Speaker]

Behalf of the cult or do recruiting.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And kind of share the party line.

[Unknown Speaker]

About how wonderful it is and how wonderful this person is. Because once you say something out loud, there is the part of our social psychology and human psychology that makes us.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Feel like we have to back that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Up and we have to stick with.

[Rachel Bernstein]

The messaging because then who are we?

[Unknown Speaker]

Did we just lie about all of that? We have to save face. So that adds another layer, I think.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Of the worry of. Of social shame.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so what are the concerns that.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Are keeping you not seeing and not.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wanting to see what you probably have already seen, even in little bits. And so to get into that discussion, I think is where you can actually make the most inroads.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Helping people talk about their fears and also that they have to start their.

[Unknown Speaker]

Life all over again. Maybe they're worried about being single again. Maybe they're worried about losing their whole community. Maybe they're worried about losing their own parents, because if the in laws are.

[Rachel Bernstein]

In support, then, you know, will they.

[Unknown Speaker]

Lose their own parents? So what is, what's the cost here.

[Rachel Bernstein]

For them and what's the worry about that? And then I think once people get.

[Unknown Speaker]

The courage to leave, when they feel their feelings are understood, when they feel.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Supported in their abject panic over doing it or really looking, then they can make those decisions in an, I think a bit of an easier way to leave.

[Unknown Speaker]

But they need to know they're not leaving into an abyss, leaving everything and everyone behind. But they'll be supported. They'll have community.

[Rachel Bernstein]

That actually helps quite a bit. But yeah, it takes a lot. Takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing, even though it might not feel that way for you because it feels more natural for you. It would probably feel wrong of you to not do it.

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[Andrea Dunlop]

That's encouraging that you say the piece about community and support because, you know, one of the things that we've done with Munchausen Support, the nonprofit that I founded and now my wonderful colleague Bea Yorker is the president of, is these support groups, right? For survivors, but also for family members. When this happened in my family, for my parents and I like it did feel very clear what we had to do. It just didn't. So I mean, do you think when people are sort of like having that like internal battle, do people just like compartmentalize that other fear? And it just seems like that would be so like psychically exhausting to do over a period of years. Like, does that take a huge toll on people when they're, when they're, are they like sort of hiding from themselves? I mean, that seems very stressful, right?

[Rachel Bernstein]

Yes, it is stressful for a lot of people and they do sometimes reach their limit with it at some point. And you don't always know what it's going to be, that's going to be their tipping point, but there's going to be something.

[Unknown Speaker]

And sometimes it's just a surprising thing.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And unexpected, but they might get there. It sometimes takes them a lot longer and they need something that's even more disturbing to really kind of hit them over the head. So they really get it. But I think it would be very.

[Unknown Speaker]

Uncomfortable for me to sit on my.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Hands for a lot of things. And that's why I don't. And at the same time I've even seen with myself there are some, like.

[Unknown Speaker]

There'S some cases that I've chosen To.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Not take on because it is. I don't know if I have the capacity because it's something that is going to be so disturbing to me. But I also will only say no to a case if I know there's someone else who I can hand it over to. Like I need to do something.

[Unknown Speaker]

I need to at least offer a referral, a resource, so I know they're still, they're going to be in good.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Hands, even if it's not mine.

[Unknown Speaker]

We sometimes have our.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Have our limit still to do self protection.

[Unknown Speaker]

So sometimes people are just more avoidant.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so they know how to jump.

[Unknown Speaker]

In again and be the superhero. They know how to jump in in.

[Rachel Bernstein]

A positive way, like coming to someone's.

[Unknown Speaker]

Defense, but really looking, really acknowledging, really.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Feeling is overwhelming for their system.

[Unknown Speaker]

And they're probably intuiting that about themselves or assuming that about themselves. A lot of people assume it to a greater degree than it's actually true.

[Rachel Bernstein]

People will jump in, they'll say, actually, I realized that wasn't as hard as I thought. In fact, it felt a lot better.

[Unknown Speaker]

Once I was there.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But people will assume it.

[Unknown Speaker]

The other thing that happens though is.

[Rachel Bernstein]

That, you know, I've never met your.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sister, so I don't know how she operates.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But there are people who will come across as the victim, but who give off signs of being terrifying and intimidating. And you can pick it up sometimes in a look, you can see. Right. How much they work something. And you know that because you've seen it, you know that's going to be turned on you and then some. And so you then go into avoiding all of it because you can see what's going to happen if you kind of cross this person and you go into, without even realizing it, you are already dealing with behavior modification just because you'll get the look or something. And I think people might not even be consciously aware that they're being behaviorally modified. But people who are aware of watching that happen can see it happening.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, that really. That tracks for me. I, you know, and I think there's. There was a period of my life where I was doing that. Right. Like, because there were many things that happened before, before this abuse situation started that were where I look back and I'm like, that's pretty weird that we just all moved on from that. You know, the biggest incidents I think being, you know, the faked pregnancy. Right. That's a very disturbing thing to do. I don't know actually that when she was in my life, I really appreciated at all how scary she actually is. But maybe as what you're saying, maybe I sort of, like, there was a part of me that did know kind of this person is really capable of anything. And I think, like, that is the thing with. When someone is, you know, especially on the extreme end of a perpetrator, like, if you are capable of doing that to your child, what are you not capable of? I mean, there is no. Like, that is a boundary that even, like, many people that would do many harmful, scary things to other people would never do it to their own children, right? So if that boundary doesn't exist, then, like, no boundary exists. And so I think they are. They are terrifying. And I think there's, like, that's a piece of what makes people not look at it, because I think, like, you have to sort of rearrange your entire worldview if you think that someone who presents as a nice, sympathetic, loving mom can be the most terrifying person you've ever met. Like, that's an entire thing that I think people are just often maybe not willing to look at. And I wonder specifically, something that has really come to the fore for me in some of the cases we've looked at, and especially this last one that we featured on the show, the Sophie Hartman case, is the role that doctors play in this abuse. And I think, you know, initially, when I was, you know, when I was covering these cases and certainly actually in. In my own, you know, in my own situation in the family, like, the. I really thought the doctors at Children's that reported my sister, the doctor at Marybridge that intervened, who. I believe she saved my niece's life. Like, I am very used to looking at doctors as either unwitting participants, right? Where. Okay, it's not a doctor. Because we get this, you know, question all the time of, like, why don't they charge the doctors and who put the G tube or whatever else? Well, if that doctor was doing that based on lies, well, that doctor's not culpable for that, Right? And it's very traumatizing for the doctor to have been used in that way. But I think I've really become clued in to how susceptible some doctors are to this in a way that you would think, like, a doctor of all people should understand this abuse, right? Like, they should have the framework for being able to understand this abuse. And what you see is, like, you know, again, like, I think one of the very culty things about these perpetrators is they really engage in this, like, splitting behavior, right? So it's like every doctor who won't go along with what they want to do is the enemy and they're out to get them. Every family member who doubts them is like, you're, you're. It's a very us and them dynamic. And so what they tend to do in this, like, doctor shopping pattern is like what I sort of now believe is like, they're looking for a mark, right? They're looking for someone who will go along with their version of reality. And then in some cases, and then of course, that doctor is the hero. So it's really become like, I've really seen where the healthcare system from, like actually championing these perpetrators, you know, on down to just like their unwillingness to report, which is again, a behavior that I think under. It makes sense out of self interest, but is still not acceptable. So, like, what do you think in that sort of, like, professional context, like, what's going on with those doctors? Why would they do that?

[Rachel Bernstein]

So I think it is like a lot of these things multilayered, I do think, and this is not to make light of it, but it's like the Obi Wan Kenobi defense. You know, you're our last hope. And there is this, I think, need when some people go into the helping professions, therapists too, you know, and. And nurses who don't, you know, they. They're not doing things for nefarious reasons, by and large, but they actually are.

[Unknown Speaker]

Often thanked even more than doctors. Thank you so much for being there.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And you really got this. And you helped me, you know, really.

[Unknown Speaker]

Get a message to the doctor.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And you were on, on top of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you can see them smiling and.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Feeling really good about being that person.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think doctors, to a certain degree, some of them have that same need.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it feels really nice. And it also feels really good if.

[Unknown Speaker]

They believe the story, and it sounds.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Like some of them do, that other.

[Unknown Speaker]

People were just not as skilled as them, were just not as insightful as them were just not as sensitive as them, were not willing to take the.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Risk to do the right thing as them. Whatever angle works to feed either the ego or affirming that they were the one when there was no one else. It feels so good, and it can.

[Unknown Speaker]

Be its own dopamine hit. It can feel almost addictive.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And they also want to take the risk of again being their champion and fighting off everyone for them. I think there is also something that is hard to look at, but we need to look at it, which is.

[Unknown Speaker]

There is sociopathy everywhere. And within the medical profession, you see it too. And I know There are people.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I mean it. You know, I. I hear about people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who really are these malignant narcissists, people who are sociopaths and go into the.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Medical profession, which is chilling. And so it's a tiny percentage, luckily, but they're there. And so if you're going to be.

[Unknown Speaker]

Doctor shopping, you're going to find the person who does not at all seem.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Upset by how many drugs they need.

[Unknown Speaker]

To give this person. In fact, they kind of see people.

[Rachel Bernstein]

As guinea pigs, and they like being.

[Unknown Speaker]

Able to use them as a means of experimentation, which is horrific.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it reminds me of Nazism.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't mean to go to an extreme, but they talk about the Nazi.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Party, you know, being able to, like.

[Unknown Speaker]

Gas people, kill people, maim people, and.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Then come home and hug their children. There is this disconnection.

[Unknown Speaker]

So they can still be good people in the community. They can have their name on the.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Side of a building of a university and be lauded, but really not be.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well inside and not handle themselves in.

[Rachel Bernstein]

A way that's aligned with anything that.

[Unknown Speaker]

We would see as conscience.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So they're there too, and they're going to be loved by people who really want them to say yes to everything without any pushback.

[Unknown Speaker]

You also have people who are trying.

[Rachel Bernstein]

To help with their own careers.

[Unknown Speaker]

They might feel like, if they're getting.

[Rachel Bernstein]

There are doctors I know who I've talked to.

[Unknown Speaker]

As they get older, they feel like they're getting pushed out, and sometimes they.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Want to make their mark before they retire. So some of them are doing it for their own needs. And so it really is all over the place. And I think then you go into the net when it's found out, they realize that they've engaged in something and participated in something that went really against the Hippocratic oath and the do no harm. Then some people then go into avoidance and do that whole human nature thing of la la, la. And I don't actually want to look.

[Unknown Speaker]

At what I was involved in.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so I am gonna go down with the ship. I'm gonna still say that, you know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Everything that I did was fine and legitimate and everything that the mom was concerned about was fine and legitimate because.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I can't afford to do anything other than that.

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[Andrea Dunlop]

See for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com something I certainly think about a lot. And I think, you know, a lot of our listeners are family members or, you know, otherwise sort of connected to children that may be emerging from this cult at some point or not. And it's really heartbreaking because, you know, survivors, it's, it's very tricky. Like you definitely see and sometimes the split happens within families. But there are survivors that emerge into the world and get a little bit of distance from their parents and, you know, go off to college or get, get in a relationship with someone else who helps them sort of unpack it. And then they go on this whole journey of discovery and they get their medical records and they really, it is a horrible, a horrible and difficult process to like recognize that this has happened to you. And then there are survivors that just will never break free and they will go on to defend that parent and they will say, I have no way. All of this was my mom would never hurt me. And you can understand, like emotionally why that would be so hard. So for those of us who are on the outside hoping that that person emerges someday from that dynamic, what should we know about how to approach those people, how to help those people? Like, how do we help get people out of the cult?

[Rachel Bernstein]

Okay, so It's a great question. And sometimes it has to do with.

[Unknown Speaker]

The person, sometimes it has to do.

[Rachel Bernstein]

With their own psychological and physiological makeup.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just to see how much they can.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Withstand, how much they can resist the urge to still be with that person.

[Unknown Speaker]

How much they're able to hold on.

[Rachel Bernstein]

To the truth and that that is going to guide them and keep them.

[Unknown Speaker]

Safe and keep them distant. And it's different for everyone.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Also, timing plays a role in this.

[Unknown Speaker]

The age of the person.

[Rachel Bernstein]

If they are still in their lives.

[Unknown Speaker]

Feeling isolated and they don't have a.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Lot of other people and.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so they're going to go to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

The people who they know. Like better the devil you know than the devil you don't. One of the things that can happen.

[Unknown Speaker]

Too is if you have been made to feel so vulnerable in your life.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And you see this, people who were.

[Unknown Speaker]

Raised in cults, people who are told and taught that left to their own devices, their life is going to fall apart. They need someone to guide them, they need someone to tell them. They need someone to be the decision maker for them. So they give that over. And that's a whole other form of gaslighting that can be very handicapping for people. If someone has gotten that message that.

[Rachel Bernstein]

They really are fragile people and that they are not able to function without someone at the helm and kind of taking the reins in their life, then.

[Unknown Speaker]

They'Re going to feel more prone to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Staying connected with this person who had.

[Unknown Speaker]

A very strong will over them and called the shots.

[Rachel Bernstein]

It's also true that there are a lot of people who, even after they've.

[Unknown Speaker]

Been tremendously abused, have so much compassion for the person who abused them that they may have wound up in the hospital many times. But if somebody says something negative about the person who abused them, they'll come to their defense. That has to do with that person's conscience. But I think also how much self concept they have, like how much they.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Feel that they have the right to be angry and to hold on to that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because also with a parent, if you.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Just stay angry with them, then you're.

[Unknown Speaker]

Also saying, I'm willing to lose them.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I'm willing to not have them in my life because if I don't love them, then I don't have them in my life. So that means that you're also needing a child to be ready for abject loss at a young age, which they may or may not be ready for. Because who is going to fill that space?

[Unknown Speaker]

What's also true is that sometimes the hope of a parent changing doesn't go away.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so when you see that your.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mother or father has engaged in something like this, you hope that once they see what they've done and it's been.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Made clear that they're going to apologize, they're going to say something to you that helps affirm for you that they really feel bad. And then you can move on and have a relationship.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I think the hope of that for a lot of people doesn't ever go away. And it keeps them linked to this.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Other person in the hope that they get it. So there are a lot of reasons why people will stay connected. What I think helps people is when.

[Unknown Speaker]

They develop a sense, I think, of real courage. It often comes from a sense of confidence.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I feel able to be in the.

[Unknown Speaker]

World without this person. In fact, I'm going to be more.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Able now without this person. This person may have loved me in her or his own way, but it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Was that their love turned out to be a poison to me. So I can't accept it and I can't have them in my life. But I can still maybe appreciate the.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Time that they made me lunch and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Appreciate the time that they did whatever they did for me.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Because I don't want to throw it.

[Unknown Speaker]

All away so I can hold on to parts like people also who leave cults.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Like I had a whole community there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Or I learned this skill, or I had a relationship with God or whatever you felt.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And I don't want to have to throw that away.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you don't. You don't have to throw it away. You can hold on to those pieces while still keeping yourself distant and safe from the person and their disorder.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And if you can also see that you can really detest the disorder and.

[Unknown Speaker]

You don't have to detest the person so that you don't have to ask.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Of them to be these hateful people in order to break free, that it can be both. And that they can love this person but really know that they need to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Keep themselves very far away from the disorder.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But that person is wrapped up in their disorder so that they really physically, and I think just in terms of.

[Unknown Speaker]

Being able to be accessible even by phone, they have to keep themselves separate.

[Rachel Bernstein]

But that they don't have to be.

[Unknown Speaker]

They don't have to feel hatred for their parent almost to give them that.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Allowance, that they can have complicated feelings.

[Unknown Speaker]

At the same time. And that would be expected. But I think surrounding that person with.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Community, with parental figures, with family is really, really important.

[Unknown Speaker]

And yeah, giving them permission to have.

[Rachel Bernstein]

The gamut of feelings that might be happening simultaneously, like the anger and the guilt and saying goodbye, et cetera and the I'm so glad I'm free, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm also experiencing loss at the same time.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I think people don't know that they.

[Unknown Speaker]

Can feel all that at once and it's okay.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, I love that advice and I think it resonates for me too because I think that's kind of the place that I've come to, right, with my sister. Like, I do have a lot of good memories with her. We had a really nice, from my perspective, we had a really nice childhood together. You know, we were, we were close. Increasingly less so as we got into our 20s. But like, I don't want to, like, I think that is one of the hardest things and I. So much harder, especially for survivors, right? For like the people who are children and that's their parent. Like, you don't want this new information that you have to go back and infect your entire life with that person and every single memory you have with that person. And so I do think like being able to hold both things is really helpful and yeah, and I think like that, that is part of the reason, you know, and again, I understand why people feel the way they feel about these perpetrators and angry and all of that stuff. And it's certainly like the other people who've been hurt by that person and then had to watch them do this to children. There's a lot of reason to feel angry and hateful and, you know, all those things. But I think like, I do, I do think, you know, I see where it's much more helpful to just like let the person have whatever complicated feelings they have. As long as they understand that they need to be safe in that relationship, then like, you know, watch a lot of survivors dealing with this of like, how do I have any relationship with this person? Like, do I. Is it okay to like have some communication with them or none or you know, it's really, really complicated. So I love the idea of just really like honoring that. And I think like, I don't know too, like in terms of people who maybe have been like adults who were around and came to the realization at some point. I think it's really, I think it's really important that we make it safe for people to come forward, even if they have been in the past, not helpful to the situation. You know, like, I like, listen, the reality will never happen, but the reality is if like Andy, you know, my brother in law called me tomorrow, I'd Be grateful to him. I'd still help him, you know, do whatever we could. Again, not gonna happen. But, like, how do we make it safe for people who may have been collaborators unwittingly or like maybe long past the point when they should have known? How do we make it so that they can still come forward? Because you don't want to cut that. You don't want to cut that as a strategy off. Like, coming to later is better than never coming to at all. Right. Like, how do we create an environment where people feel like they can take that risk?

[Rachel Bernstein]

Yeah, I think it's a really lovely thought that they need that they need kind of what we kind of call a glide path, something that will make it easy for them to come back in. Because one of the things that sometimes keeps people aligned with the abuser is that they don't feel like they have.

[Unknown Speaker]

Anywhere else to go. They do have the sense that they've.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Burned their bridges outside of this relationship.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so they might stay there for.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Longer because of that. So if you then let them know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Or the word gets out, even through.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Podcasts like this and other times that you might talk about it, that it really is never too late to be able to have insight. It's never too late to suddenly feel brave enough to really see. And it's never too late, I think.

[Unknown Speaker]

To change your mind.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Because it could be that like with.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, with your brother in law and anyone else involved in these situations, they weren't ready to see it. They didn't have all the information. And the reason they didn't have all the information was because they weren't willing to look at a lot of the information and really take it in and really absorb it as truth.

[Rachel Bernstein]

So even if it was presented, still it wasn't really presented to them because they deflected it. And then they can at some point.

[Unknown Speaker]

Say, now I'm willing to look as torturous as that is, but I need.

[Rachel Bernstein]

To do that and I need to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do that for my child. Then, yeah, they can really, I think, reach out.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it would be such a shame.

[Unknown Speaker]

In that moment if when they're reaching.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Out, a family member says, too little, too late, sorry. But instead to have them really understand.

[Unknown Speaker]

That they were in a torturous situation.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Too, they were put in a torturous situation too.

[Unknown Speaker]

And now they have to deal with.

[Rachel Bernstein]

The sense of responsibility and guilt of.

[Unknown Speaker]

Allowing things to happen to their loved one. So they have a lot of healing to do. And what they need is not anger.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Directed at them, but they need someone to really make them feel welcome and to be patient and to get them.

[Unknown Speaker]

On the road so that they can.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Heal, because they're gonna need a lot of help.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think, you know, some people may be listening and just thinking, like, well, this is like, why should you ever forgive someone who did that? And, like, why should you? How could you not be angry? And I think, like, it's okay to be angry, but maybe don't be angry at them. Like, go be angry on your own time. Cause I think, like, what this all is in service of, like, the thing that we always need to keep is, like, what is best for the children. And, like, it will be better for the children if their parent comes around, even if they're, like, of age. You know, I know for, like, survivors that where there was a father figure that did not behave in a protective way, that even as adults, if that father were. Which they often are not able to, if that father were able to acknowledge what happened and give them a full accounting and stop defending their mother and really, like, you know, reckon with that, with that, that would be so much better for those children, that that could be part of their healing anytime. So it's like, yes, like, personally, you can have whatever feelings you want about, like, that person and what they did, but I think it's like, you'll never be completely separate from your parents. Right. Like, you. Regardless of whether it was an abuse situation or not, like, we're all just, like, entwined. We're always going to, like, be affected by what's happening with those parents. And so, like, the more people you can sort of get onto the side of the children, the better. And I feel like that's sort of, like, incumbent on you, if you can, to sort of get over whatever your personal feelings are about that person, knowing that it will be better for that child if family members do come around, whenever they come around.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Right. It's also, I think, an incredibly powerful message to send a child that someone.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who was so sure of something before.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Has now changed their mind based on.

[Unknown Speaker]

New information or based on just being.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Willing to look at it. And when kids see adults actually turning around and saying, I'm so sorry, it is transformative. It is so hopeful that there are people in this world who were colluding, who were letting them be harmed, who.

[Unknown Speaker]

May have even been fostering it to a certain degree in ways that they're not even aware, but just emboldening the person to feel they could get away with it because they felt supported and believed in doing it. Then they get to see their parent being willing to do something very uncomfortable for them.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And that is actually very healing because.

[Unknown Speaker]

They were put through so much that was uncomfortable for themselves, for their parent.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And so then it's a way, I.

[Unknown Speaker]

Think, to really align with the fact that they were both victimized by the same disorder. And that can be very unifying.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And it's important to make that relationship happen and not make that person too.

[Unknown Speaker]

Scared to come forward, too scared to.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Connect, because what, you know, why do that to them if they really are saying, oh, my goodness, I now see.

[Unknown Speaker]

That should be welcomed.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Really?

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. I could talk to you all day and. Yeah, can you tell everybody where they can find more Rachel in their ears in their life? Where can folks find you?

[Rachel Bernstein]

You can find more Rachel in my practice.

[Unknown Speaker]

You can go to my website, rachelbernsteintherapy.com I'm based in Los Angeles, but I.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Work with people all over the world.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I have support groups for people who've been involved in cults or who.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Have been abused by their cult leader.

[Unknown Speaker]

And for families and friends also have loved ones in cults. And I have the weekly podcast called.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Indoctrination, and you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts, and so.

[Unknown Speaker]

Certainly be in touch if you feel.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Like there's a situation you need some.

[Unknown Speaker]

Help with or you want to figure out what's happening or how to talk to your loved one about something that you're noticing.

[Rachel Bernstein]

I do a lot of talking about talking.

[Unknown Speaker]

How do we have these conversations that.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Are difficult to have and can be really instructive.

[Unknown Speaker]

There are also some videos on my.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Website about how to have those kinds.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of conversations and also how to find.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Safer therapy, because I'm contacted by people who got involved in therapeutic relationships that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were not at all healthy.

[Rachel Bernstein]

And that makes me so frustrated, I can't tell you. So I thought it's my time to do some education about that, and then on podcasts like these. And I'm so glad that you're covering this. I know it's not an easy subject at all.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Well, thank you. I really appreciate your time, and we'll. We'll stay in touch.

[Rachel Bernstein]

Thank you. I'd love that.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Nobody should believe me. Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Carmouche SA.