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- [00:00]
Andrea Dunlop
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Mike Dunlop
Just a quick reminder that my new book, the Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
- [00:17]
Andrea Dunlop
The book was an Amazon editor's pick.
- [00:19]
Mike Dunlop
For nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called.
- [00:21]
Andrea Dunlop
It a riveting deep dive into mvp. And if you are an audiobook lover.
- [00:26]
Mike Dunlop
And you like hearing my voice, which.
- [00:28]
Andrea Dunlop
I'm assuming you do, since you're listening here, you should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you.
- [00:36]
Mike Dunlop
Have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions@helloandnobodyshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co author, Detective Mike Weber on for a little book Q and A and post retirement tell all special thanks for your support.
- [00:51]
Andrea Dunlop
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [01:25]
Mike Dunlop
So if we could just start by getting a slate from you. So I'm Mike and I'm Andrea's dad.
- [01:32]
Andrea's Father
So I talk to you or talk to the camera?
- [01:34]
Andrea Dunlop
No, you talk to me.
- [01:35]
Andrea's Father
I talk to you. Okay.
- [01:37]
Andrea Dunlop
Four years ago, I set out on the journey of making this show. I came here because I had a story to tell. And I'd recently realized that my family's bizarre and horrifying saga wasn't actually a one in a million story. Instead, it sounded nearly identical to all of these other stories of families experiencing Munchausen by proxy. And it's this powerful shared experience that fuels the show to this day. I've talked about my sister Megan Carter's case periodically throughout the show, namely in the first and second seasons episodes that I'll link to in the show notes. But my history follows me on this road, and it takes a new shape with each new case I learn about. As my understanding of Munchausen by Proxy deepens, so does my understanding of my past, of myself, and especially of my family.
- [02:29]
Andrea's Father
I'm Andrea Dunlop's father. Been her father for a long time, in fact, ever since she was born. And so that's who I am. That's who I'm here today to discuss with my daughter some topics that relate to the challenge we had in our family with Munchausens and also to help compliment my daughter on the wonderful work she's done in bringing this very difficult subject matter to a wider audience with the objective of helping people who have suffered from this and revealing some of the difficulties we went through as a family. And it's very difficult to discuss and I'd much prefer not to do it, but the value of doing it, I think to explain to other parents who can see signs of this happening at an early age will, I think, make a big difference.
- [03:31]
Andrea Dunlop
Aw, dad. Season five brought me back to my sister's case because if you don't know, she was a part of Sophie Hartman's legal team. So Megan plays a role in this story, but I also wanted to explore the parallels between the two families, the Hartmans and the Dunlops, and the divergence ultimately in our two paths. Both were upper middle class families who grew up in idyllic suburban settings. Megan and Sophie were both gifted children of long married parents, given every material advantage one could hope for in this world and yet somehow managed to portray themselves as constant victims. I've always been close with my parents and I've always admired how they handled the situation with Megan. But it's only as I've encountered all of these other stories, Sophie's in particular, that I've really understood their emotional courage. My parents and I have talked about what happened with Megan in depth many times over the years, but this is the first time either of them have ever talked about my sister publicly. My dad is in all ways a big man. He's a successful entrepreneur and a 6 foot 3 former rugby player. And in case you can't tell, he's British. And if you think he gets a lot of mileage out of that accent, you'd be right. He's an indefatigable optimist and irrepressibly outgoing. He collects friends everywhere he goes. Airplanes, restaurants, his UPS delivery guy. My dad is chatting them up. But even though my dad loves to talk, now you know where I get it. I didn't think he'd ever want to talk about this. Through the years, especially as I've become a parent myself, I've come to a deeper appreciation of what it must have cost my parents to accept accept who my sister is. And this potent mix of shame, fear and grief, I believe holds people like the Hartmans back from ever facing the truth. You heard a bit from my folks in Season five. But today I wanted to share more of my conversation with them because, particularly after meeting Chalice last season, I've come to believe that courage is contagious. And my parents are two of the most courageous people I know. We've all spent years wondering where things went wrong with Megan. Was there a moment we could have helped her before this all escalated? For me, those disquieting memories go back to high school, but for my parents, they go back much earlier.
- [05:56]
Mike Dunlop
We've certainly gone back through our own history with Megan many, many times. And you know, I think one of the things that's most complicated for me is that I have like many really nice memories of her from when we were growing up. And I wonder if you could just sort of talk about, like, what was Megan like when. When we were kids? Like, what are some of your memories of her?
- [06:15]
Andrea's Father
When we were kids, she was relatively just a normal kid. But very early on we started to see symptoms of becoming a hypochondriac. How she wanted the attention of illness very early on. And the earliest example was when she needed glasses or she said she needed glasses. And so we took her to an eye specialist and an optometrist and he said, she doesn't need glasses at all. She's not telling the truth. I think I'm fairly observant and I thought there's something strange about this. And then when Megan went to the alternative school, she became absolutely obsessed with one of the students who was severely handicapped and sort of started saying that she was the only one who could understand what he was trying to say and spent a lot of time with him and wheeled him around. And every time we went to the school, she was with him. And I thought, this is either someone incredibly compassionate or someone who just wants to be the center of medical attention. So I started to see things very early on. I didn't say anything, but I just felt that something was not right.
- [07:42]
Andrea Dunlop
Just to clarify what my dad is talking about here, my sister and I went to this hippy, dippy alternative elementary school. Kind of unconventional for my straight laced parents, honestly, but this place was awesome. There were always a ton of parents in the classroom. We went on a million field trips and did wacky art projects and for some reason called our teachers by their first names. We also had a special needs sister school next door whose students we spent a lot of time with. Again, this was awesome. And I remember this boy that my dad's talking about. I just thought, oh, my sister has such a big heart. It's one of a million little details that looks different in the rear view.
- [08:19]
Mike Dunlop
But it sounds like maybe there was like some unease about Megan even when she was little. Is that kind of what you're saying?
- [08:26]
Andrea's Father
And not only that, but as she grew up, you know, one of these incidents would have been fine, you just sort of brushed aside. But I have a very good memory of detail and I started piecing a lot of these pieces together that there was something. There was definitely something wrong. The next one, the next incident was the knee and there's this wonderful doctor. We went to see Dr. Holland and Megan was complaining of terrible pain in her knee and she did an arthroscopic surgery, said there's absolutely nothing here, everything is perfect. So that was the first. And then.
- [09:08]
Mike Dunlop
And that was when she was in high school, right?
- [09:11]
Andrea's Father
Yes, I think she was about 12 or 13. And then in a gym class she said she hurt her back. And that was. She claimed she fell and hurt her back. And that was the series of just a number of just very traumatic situations. One where she had a back operation and the doctor turned out to be a complete flake anyway. So that didn't exactly help the situation. And then she got all this attention with everybody coming to the hospital and asking how she was. She went home and then she had an infection and we think it was self induced because it was just. It was something that was so unusual. And then she went back in, had another operation. And I can picture exactly now looking at her in the bed and her being kind of pleased that everybody was looking at her and concerned about her and not concerned about what happened, but concerned about that we were concerned. And I started piecing pieces together and it was this medical attention getting that. We had a number of incidences. One where she claimed she couldn't walk and almost had to be in a wheelchair and eventually got her to walk. Took her to a doctor at University of Washington and he was a very strange doctor, had a long ponytail, but was a very good doctor and asked her to walk down the passageway. And he said, we deal with cases like this. There's nothing wrong with her back, it's in her mind. And that was when I decided I was either going to pay $30,000 for this course that he had where he would make them swim and run and you sort of.
- [11:10]
Mike Dunlop
It was like a sort of physical therapy, occupational therapy.
- [11:13]
Andrea's Father
Well, he asked her to walk and hop down the passageway. And then he took me aside and said, there's absolutely nothing physically wrong. You can't do that if you have what? She claimed that she had this serious back problem.
- [11:29]
Mike Dunlop
Right, right. And was this, this was probably around the time that she was wearing a back brace for on and off. Yeah.
- [11:35]
Andrea's Father
And that, again, drew attention to it. And then I decided, well, do I spend X thousand dollars on this course or do we head off to Club Med in Huatulco in Mexico? And I decided, better option.
- [11:49]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah, I mean, I remember that trip as well because I, I. And I remember specifically that piece of it of like, oh, Megan's been having.
- [11:55]
Andrea Dunlop
All this trouble with her back, and.
- [11:57]
Mike Dunlop
Then now she's like, having fun and doing the, you know, doing all this stuff. And I remember her going on runs with you. Yeah. I mean, for you and mom at the time, like, do you remember having conversations about your concerns about Megan and like, what were those just. Or were those just sort of like some things off?
- [12:15]
Andrea's Father
Well, that she was, you know, incredible hypochondriac and that she got. Appeared to get pleasure for being involved in medical intervention.
- [12:29]
Mike Dunlop
So at the time, your framing of it was she's convincing herself she's sick. Not this is deliberate deception. She knows she's not sick because of course, we would not have had any of that framing at the time.
- [12:43]
Andrea's Father
I think it was. I had the feeling it was deliberate, that it was a prescription in order for her to get attention. And it just became so obvious. And it was the next thing, then the next thing, then the next thing.
- [12:58]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah. Was it just sort of not clear what to do or like, let's just try and redirect her as much as possible.
- [13:04]
Andrea's Father
We had no idea what to do. We thought it would be resolved when she eventually went to university and went up to Western State.
- [13:14]
Mike Dunlop
Is it Western?
- [13:15]
Andrea's Father
Yeah, Western. And started studying to become a nurse. And we thought, finally, this is an avenue where she can be involved in medical stuff but not have to, you know, that's what she does. And so all the attention related to medical. And she has had an incredible memory. I mean, she's kind of like me. She has this detailed memory. So she remembered drugs and dosages and things that the average person can maybe do two or three, but not a whole pharmacy full of drugs.
- [13:52]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah, yeah. She's really smart.
- [13:54]
Andrea's Father
Yeah. Remember the names and everything. And so I thought finally, that was the diversion.
- [14:03]
Andrea Dunlop
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- [16:31]
Andrea's Father
She was always running out of money and always, always seemed to just have no connection between what she should have done in terms so she collected the rent in the apartment she had in Kirtland, but she didn't pay the landlord and so all these sort of this strange sort of behavior tied in and it was she would get so far and then there'd be this sort of breakdown, and she would, you know, not connect the dots.
- [17:03]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah. So, yeah, if you can talk a little bit more about kind of the financial piece of it, because, you know, she wasn't as. At least as I remember it. And I remember the incident with her because I was.
- [17:14]
Andrea Dunlop
When she was roommates with quite a close friend of hers.
- [17:16]
Mike Dunlop
And so that was a sort of big betrayal of that friend. And they got in trouble for not paying the rent, and she had been giving her her rent money every month. And I mean, it always seemed. That always seemed so strange to me because, you know, Megan and I were really lucky in that we always had everything we needed.
- [17:34]
Andrea Dunlop
Right.
- [17:34]
Mike Dunlop
I mean, you guys paid for school for both of us.
- [17:38]
Andrea Dunlop
You.
- [17:38]
Mike Dunlop
You know, we always had that safety net.
- [17:41]
Andrea Dunlop
Right.
- [17:41]
Mike Dunlop
We weren't like trust fund kids where we were just got given a pile of money. But it was like, you know, if. If one of us needed help with rent or something like that, like, you guys were always able to provide that and willing to provide that. So I remember it seeming, you know, because by this time we're in both in our twenties. I remember it seeming so strange of like, why would you get yourself in, like, with her? Like, why would you get yourself into credit card debt?
- [18:05]
Andrea Dunlop
Why would you.
- [18:05]
Mike Dunlop
Like there was an incident where she was writing bad checks. Like, why would you do that when, like, I know you could just ask mom and dad. It wasn't like she was doing, like. She was like, living some crazy high life and driving. So it was. It wasn't anything like, super obvious. It was just these, like, weird things that would happen.
- [18:20]
Andrea's Father
Then when she forged the checks, that was. It was bizarre. It was so easy to find out.
- [18:27]
Andrea Dunlop
Right?
- [18:27]
Mike Dunlop
I mean, not a mastermind.
- [18:29]
Andrea's Father
Not exactly. Not a mastermind. And that was when that. The boy. That boyfriend appeared?
- [18:35]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah, her.
- [18:35]
Andrea Dunlop
Her boyfriend.
- [18:36]
Mike Dunlop
That was when she was with him.
- [18:37]
Andrea Dunlop
Yes.
- [18:38]
Mike Dunlop
With Scott.
- [18:39]
Andrea Dunlop
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Mike Dunlop
And I mean, I remember that like, so there was. And again, I. You know, it's like there's all these incidents, but that one where she was writing the bad checks and then got in trouble. And, I mean, she got in, like, legal trouble for that. That was a bigger deal than just.
- [18:51]
Andrea's Father
Like, oh, well, I managed to. I managed to paste over that.
- [18:55]
Mike Dunlop
Right. You bailed her out. But I remember that she was in that instance. So she was with this boyfriend that, you know, was. I think we had questions about. And she got in trouble for writing fake checks. And then I remember that, like, that was kind of the first time, like, she stopped talking to all of us for, like, Three months. Because she was mad. She was mad that I didn't defend her against you guys. And then she was so furious at me that she didn't talk to me for, like, three months.
- [19:30]
Andrea Dunlop
This was another thing that struck me as a parallel between Sophie and Megan. Not to say that you can't suffer just because you come from a place of economic privilege. Of course you can. But with both of them, there was this insistence on seeking out opportunities to position themselves as the victim that seemed pathological in and of itself. Like Sophie choosing to become a single mom of two. Or my sister fabricating and then pretending to lose a twin pregnancy after her fiance left her. I've covered this story in depth in previous episodes. But when my sister was in her twenties, she pretended very convincingly to be pregnant with twin girls and then called my parents and me while we were all out of town, a theme that would repeat itself over the years to tell us that she'd lost the babies six months in. I was living in New York at the time, and I can picture exactly where I was in my first tiny apartment with the ceiling that leaked prodigiously in heavy rains when my dad called me to tell me that Megan's story about the babies had unraveled, that she'd never been pregnant at all. But even as the evidence mounted that my sister was capable of very serious deception, my dad second guessed himself.
- [20:42]
Andrea's Father
I always felt in the back of my mind, have I made a dreadful mistake? Is this my daughter who's just having all these terrible things happen to her? And am I being unsympathetic? And then I look at the probability of two or three of them, let alone 15. And then that formed a pattern. And I remember at the wedding, and I definitely remember, I had some inkling of fear that if she had children, they might be at risk. I suppressed it a number of times, but I felt, because I'd seen the entire history, you know, right from when she was a child, and it made me very nervous and of how she would care for a child. And so when she got really pregnant, got actually pregnant, pregnant for real, I was concerned. And it's actually very similar to the Elisabeth Kubler Ross, the Swiss psychiatrist on her thesis on dying. When people know they're going to die, the first thing is denial. Then it's anger, and then it's prayer, and then it's acceptance. And I think that's a very natural human trait. And I think for parents of children that have Munchausen's disease, you keep on replaying it and replaying it. And it's more comfortable to be in a state of denial. It's. It's absolutely horrifying when you confront it and you realize that it's not and it is the real thing.
- [22:27]
Andrea Dunlop
My mom also remembers Megan's early forays into medical deception. And she remembers this pattern of Megan being in proximity to someone having a medical issue and then suddenly co opting it.
- [22:38]
Andrea's Mother
She was a kid and I just thought they were anomalies. So I think she was very susceptible to suggestion about medical things like going for an eye exam because somebody that she knew got glasses. And the eye doctor saying, you know, I can't prescribe anything because your answers, he basically said, your answers aren't consistent. So she was just making it up. And then, you know, any medical thing. The only thing I can think of that was truly, you know, a problem was her tonsils. And she had a tonsillectomy and I don't remember what age. She was pretty young and she really did have infected tonsils. But I just think anything then she had. People on swim team had asthma. So she had asthma and somehow she managed to get prescriptions for things. And there were, just looking back, there were many instances of that sort of thing. Any medical thing turned into a big deal, and we didn't really put that all together until her son started having trouble right off the bat. Starting with being born prematurely and then having various medical problems.
- [24:00]
Andrea Dunlop
My mom and I have always had an easy relationship and we've always been close. My mom is tall and slim with salt and pepper hair. She's kind of the opposite of my dad, reserved and self contained. She loves gardens, books, and most of all, she loves dogs. Her gorgeous German shepherd, Jenna in particular. My mom stayed home with my sister and I growing up, doing the unglamorous but important work of taking care of everyone in the family's needs. My dad is an entrepreneur and he worked a lot while we were growing up. So it was my mom who was there for everything, driving me to tennis after school and taking my sister to swimming at the other ungodly hour of 5am she is the emotional rock of our family, and she's honestly just the best mom ever. Even as the troubling incidents with Megan piled up, my mom remained hopeful for her daughter.
- [24:49]
Andrea's Mother
And I think what we have to remember is sometimes I look back and I think, why did we not realize there was a real problem earlier? But it was incidents, and then there would be a long period of seeming normalcy, you know, where everything was Great. And she was this intelligent, vibrant girl. And, you know, I. And I think the other part of it is when she met her husband, I. I thought, oh, he's a nice, normal guy. And she's going to settle down now. She's going to settle down and. And live a good life. Which was really stupid in retrospect, to think that she would just suddenly turn a corner. But I guess that was. That's what I hoped. Your dad and I used to walk up in the trails across the street, walk the dogs. And we started talking about it and putting all these pieces together, and that's when we decided that.
- [25:47]
Mike Dunlop
And this is when. This is when her son was about a year old?
- [25:52]
Andrea's Mother
No, it was earlier than that. So sometime in the summer or fall after he was born, we started to worry about this. And then I contacted a couple of the doctors, and I went to a doctor's appointment with her and her son. And what she heard and what I heard was completely different. She was really pushing for a G tube at that time. And I think I only babysit him, babysat him once when he was very young, and he just screamed the entire time. And looking back on it, I realized it was because he was hungry. I contacted a pediatrician that she was seeing and a GI doctor that she was seeing and started to sort of say that something's wrong. And in that process, of course, we all went to see our family doctor and talk to her, because there was no information out there, really. I'd heard about Munchausen's by Proxy in some TV movie or something, and that's about it. There was no real research to look into. So then ultimately, the pediatrician that I talked to said, do you think it's time for an intervention? And I said, yes. In my head, I thought, okay, we'll all sit down at a conference table and confront the issue and we'll solve it. Well, that's not what she meant. She meant that she was going to call cps, and, of course, the rest is history.
- [27:27]
Andrea Dunlop
I remember this moment really well, and having no idea that this was the beginning of the end of my family, I remember thinking, well, okay, now we're finally going to do something. But it was my mom who took action, My mom who had the courage to make the call.
- [27:46]
Mike Dunlop
I was living with you guys at the time because I just moved back from New York. And, you know, you said, like, you and Daddy were going on a walk, and then you had this meeting with Dr. Druckmann. And, like, I remember you guys walking in and Telling me about your conversation with Dr. Druckmann. What do you remember about that conversation?
- [28:06]
Andrea's Mother
Well, she was very helpful. And, you know, we were absolutely convinced at that point that Megan was causing harm to her son.
- [28:18]
Mike Dunlop
And that was kind of the framing. We had it. Right. Like a bad feeling.
- [28:22]
Andrea's Mother
Right.
- [28:23]
Mike Dunlop
And that she was the cause of it. Not necessarily specifically Munchausen by proxy, which we didn't know that much about. Like Dr. Druckmann kind of helped give us that framing.
- [28:30]
Andrea's Mother
But when we put. Yes, she put a name to it. When we put all the pieces together that, you know, from her childhood on up, all of a sudden the puzzle came together. And Dr. Druckmann was very helpful, believed us, and she gave us the name of somebody at children's who was on. There's a committee, a scan team. Yeah, probably a scan team. And I contacted that person. So we were doing everything we could, could to raise the alarm. And so at least she gave us a framework to work with.
- [29:11]
Mike Dunlop
But it's like a next step to take.
- [29:13]
Andrea's Mother
Right. And it's just, it's really difficult.
- [29:17]
Andrea Dunlop
Spring is in full bloom at the Home Depot.
- [29:20]
Andrea's Father
So what are you working on?
- [29:22]
Andrea Dunlop
How about a quick and stylish patio furniture update?
- [29:25]
Andrea's Father
Check out a variety of on trend.
- [29:26]
Andrea Dunlop
Dining sets with plenty of space for entertaining. And what's outdoor dining without a shiny new grill? Find a wide selection of grills under $300 like the next grill 4 burner.
- [29:36]
Andrea's Father
Gas grill for only $229.
- [29:40]
Andrea Dunlop
Then add a little ambiance with string lights.
- [29:42]
Andrea's Father
Transform your space this spring with everything you need from the Home Depot.
- [29:47]
Andrea's Mother
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- [30:18]
Andrea Dunlop
In the Hartman case, we saw a family of privilege make the opposite choice to defend their daughter's indefensible actions and pour millions of dollars into her legal case. The result was that two vulnerable children remain at home with an unsafe parent and Sophie was free to pursue an opportunistic lawsuit. In my family, though, I know how hard this was on my parents, once they had the information in front of them, once they realized what was at stake, the priority was protecting Megan's son. I think on Some level, we all knew that this could cost us our relationship with Megan, even if there was some part of us that was hoping it could go another way, as my mom and I discuss here with my wonderful lead producer, Mariah Gossett.
- [31:02]
Mike Dunlop
So, you know, we get this call, and we were down in the desert, and actually Megan and her son were supposed to join us. And then we get this call from Andy, and he's hysterical. And, you know, they've taken cps, came and did an emergency removal, which we did not know was gonna happen. We did not. You had said you had thought when an intervention was brought up that it would. Like, that's sitting around the conference table.
- [31:22]
Andrea's Mother
How naive is that?
- [31:24]
Mike Dunlop
I mean, that's what they show us on TV when they say it's an intervention, Right. I think it's like, what we think it is. But I think I would love to know, in a world where, like, what would have that solution look, like, what would have been the idealistic version of this, where it was the sit down.
- [31:41]
Andrea's Mother
At the table, what would have happened? Well, the idealistic concept would have been that we all sit around and Megan suddenly said, oh, yeah, I do need help. Which, looking back at it, of course, is incredibly naive and naive to think that that would have been an intervention that they were talking about. But, you know, I guess at that point, you know, she's my daughter, and we were hoping we could turn this around, but obviously it wouldn't have been successful if it had been done. It wasn't even successful when CPS came and took her son, you know, so. And nothing was ultimately done. So it's. It's. Would have been very unlikely for that to have had any good effect.
- [32:28]
Mike Dunlop
But I think we were like. And I think we all sort of fell on different places of how realistic we thought this was even at the time. And certainly now we all see it in a different lens. But, like, we were thinking of Megan as sick. We were thinking of her as she has. And this is something we've talked about at great length on the show of, like, do you classify this as a mental illness or not? And we were thinking of her as, like, oh, she needs help. Like, she needs help and support to be able to parent safely. Like, that's how we were looking at her, Right? And we needed her husband and her family to recognize that she needed that help so that they could be a part of that support system. Right. And so in the very beginning, like, we were having these conversations. I mean. I mean, I remember, like, this was our first Lucky the lives we led until then, I guess. But, like, this was. This was our first interaction with, like, the state and cps, and that's a very. Like, I wouldn't be scared of them now, but, like, that's a very scary thing, right? You're like, oh, my God. The child is like. And it was very brief. He was given over to the grandparents very fast. But the idea of a child being in state custody in your family is terrifying.
- [33:39]
Andrea's Mother
It's terrifying when you know something about foster care and how that turns out. So many times, I think to go back to when daddy decided to pay fees to the lawyers originally, you know, we were trying to help. And looking back on it, you know, I wish we hadn't, but that was that. You know, our family's always been eager to help and support our kids. And so that's what we were trying to do. And then it ended up not going so well.
- [34:16]
Andrea Dunlop
This is definitely a top shelf problem, but for families with resources, the line between helping and enabling isn't always crystal clear. And my dad is a man who is used to being able to fix things, to take charge of a situation. And in this moment of crisis, it makes sense that he thought he might be able to fix this one.
- [34:35]
Andrea's Father
Well, what I told the attorney, I told Shapiro, this is what I want, you know, I want Megan to get treatment. There's no doubt in my mind. She's seriously ill and his job is to make sure that she gets treatment. And unfortunately, he went completely against my wishes and he sort of claimed that he's representing Megan even though I was paying the bills.
- [35:03]
Andrea Dunlop
Right.
- [35:03]
Mike Dunlop
I think they have to do that. If he gave you the impression in your first conversations with him that he could do that, that he could, like, because you were paying the bills, sort of act on your behalf, I mean, I don't think that would be legal or ethical.
- [35:15]
Andrea's Father
Well, it's not. It wasn't. It was what I wanted him to create as an outcome and to first, this was an incident that we could utilize to help Megan. And that was.
- [35:29]
Mike Dunlop
Right. Sort of things have come to a head now.
- [35:31]
Andrea's Father
Yes. And, you know, she needs legal representation because, you know, it's in the hands of the state. And he. One of the things I've compartmentalized is the horror that this man, in my opinion, could, you know, not only not represent her best interests, in my opinion, but actually take, you know, defend her against something that she did and then has now tried to make a career out of it, and now is probably behind a lot of these Lawsuits. Because the one way that lawyers make a lot of money is they take a percentage of the lawsuit. And I don't know how many of these are going to be successful, although in your podcast some have. And this is now seems to be almost a modus operandi for shaking down hospitals.
- [36:30]
Andrea Dunlop
This was what really drew me to the Hartman case. The way that my sister and her lawyer, Adam Shapiro set a blueprint for how to attack a hospital who reports abuse. And the way they took what they learned in Megan's case and directly put it to use in Sofie's. The deeper I get into the cases I cover on this show, the more I am both intrigued and dismayed by their interconnectedness. The way the same lawyers and experts and groups keep showing up in these cases. There is a playbook for perpetrators with means or the ability to procure means. Hire experts and lawyers to attack the hospital and exploit the judiciary's lack of knowledge on these cases. Then in a classic bit of Darvo, turn it around so that the abuser is now the victim, suing the hospital for whatever they can throw at the wall. And funding this lawsuit Megan and her husband proposed was how my parents could have their daughter and their grandson back. That was the price.
- [37:27]
Andrea's Father
Yeah. He wanted to meet at this restaurant and I can't remember all the details of the conversation. The restaurant in Takwala. And their whole motivation was how can we sue the hospital?
- [37:41]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah. I mean, were you surprised at the gall of that? I mean it was like they, they were in a. It's. It's not surprising in the context of Megan and her behavior, but like it's a.
- [37:58]
Andrea's Father
It's shocking. I think Andy sort it as a ticket out of their financial problems.
- [38:06]
Mike Dunlop
So they wanted you to fund their legal pursuit of suing Children's Hospital for falsely accusing her?
- [38:13]
Andrea Dunlop
Yes.
- [38:13]
Mike Dunlop
And what did you have to say to that?
- [38:15]
Andrea's Father
I said no, I believe that what they said is correct and I have no intention of doing that. And I think that is. That's extortion. That's not just. That's suing, that's extortion. You're trying to get money out of them when you have no rationale for it whatsoever.
- [38:34]
Mike Dunlop
And so I believe. But I mean, was that your last conversation with Megan?
- [38:40]
Andrea's Father
Yep. I said goodbye and I, to be honest, I didn't expect to see her again.
- [38:44]
Andrea Dunlop
My mom and dad faced this situation with unusual clarity and courage, but sadly, Megan's in laws did not.
- [38:52]
Mike Dunlop
And I mean, I remember looking at Andy's mom and I felt sort of instinctively like she might be the one who would listen. That's not how it turned out.
- [39:01]
Andrea's Mother
But I agree, though. I think she had some sympathy at that point. But by the time Megan had indoctrinated the whole family, they just either couldn't see it or they refused to see it.
- [39:15]
Andrea Dunlop
Right.
- [39:15]
Mike Dunlop
Well, they just. It felt. I mean, it felt like we were up against a cult even then, I think. And it's like that. No, I mean, it was like, like. But Megan. And Megan always kind of, like, she always kind of had that.
- [39:25]
Andrea Dunlop
Right.
- [39:25]
Mike Dunlop
Like she was very good at convincing you of things and she's very good at like sort of presenting her and version and manipulating. And manipulating people.
- [39:36]
Andrea Dunlop
Yeah.
- [39:36]
Andrea's Mother
I mean, I think you've probably mentioned this in the podcast, but I think it's notable that many times big things happen when we were out of town.
- [39:47]
Andrea Dunlop
Always.
- [39:47]
Andrea's Mother
You know, her son was born on New Year's Eve, she lost the twins, the false pregnancy on New Year's Eve, and we were out of town both times. Which, you know, sort of involved flying back and scrambling around to get back. I just think that is not a coincidence.
- [40:08]
Mike Dunlop
It was always sort of maximum drama.
- [40:10]
Andrea's Mother
Absolutely.
- [40:11]
Mike Dunlop
And like, this was something that I actually don't have memory of, but she had a big health crisis.
- [40:15]
Andrea's Father
Right.
- [40:15]
Mike Dunlop
When you guys were coming down from my college graduation. Right.
- [40:19]
Andrea Dunlop
During the first investigation into Megan, she was evaluated by a psychologist who also interviewed my parents and me to get a family history.
- [40:27]
Andrea's Mother
So she went and saw the psychologist.
- [40:29]
Mike Dunlop
I do remember talking to him and really having the impression that he thought something was wrong. I mean, I believe he mentioned that he felt she had borderline traits. I think that was the first time I heard of that.
- [40:39]
Andrea's Mother
She said that she had a very narcissistic.
- [40:42]
Mike Dunlop
Narcissistic personality.
- [40:43]
Andrea's Mother
Personality. And that's what I recall.
- [40:45]
Mike Dunlop
Yeah. And I remember feeling reassured by that because I was like, like, oh, they see it like, they see that something is wrong here. But it just came to nothing. And I. I got the sense that they sort of like sent her off with like, ma'am, you need to go to some therapy.
- [41:00]
Andrea's Mother
Yeah. And I think it was very clear from our talking to the CASA representative that she kind of intellectually ran rings around Andy's family and had everybody under her influence.
- [41:14]
Andrea Dunlop
We have limited information about what went on during the first investigation because we were on the outs with my sister and the records for the case are sealed. We got some insights from the social worker and the casa, or court appointed special advocate who was representing my nephew. We don't know what the results of the psychological evaluation showed other than what the psychologist shared with us during our conversation with him. What I now know after studying many of these cases is that a psych eval is of limited use in a medical child abuse case, particularly if that psychologist has not reviewed the medical records. This is not a diagnosis that can be made from conversations with the perpetrator and their family. It's a crime for which there either is or is not evidence. But we knew none of this at the time. All we knew was that we were now the enemy.
- [42:02]
Mike Dunlop
When was your last conversation with Megan? Do you remember?
- [42:06]
Andrea's Mother
I don't specifically remember because I don't even think I talked to her after the CPS thing, like after the removal. Right. And because my name was in the.
- [42:18]
Mike Dunlop
So she would talk to dad and she would talk. She talked to me for a little bit and then.
- [42:22]
Andrea's Mother
Right, yeah. And I don't believe I ever talked to her.
- [42:25]
Andrea Dunlop
She just wouldn't even speak to you?
- [42:26]
Andrea's Mother
And I of course saw her at the meeting after the case.
- [42:31]
Mike Dunlop
That was the last time, but that was.
- [42:32]
Andrea's Mother
That was it. And we haven't had any contact since then.
- [42:36]
Andrea Dunlop
The state's dependency petition for my nephew was dismissed. The social worker tried to reassure my mother afterwards that they had nonetheless, quote, implemented a safeguard to protect my nephew and get Megan the help she needs, whatever that means. Over the next few years, my sister gave birth to two more babies, both very premature. One of them died, the other, my niece, survived. And five years later, my sister was back in court after reports of her abusing my niece. This time there was a police investigation that included an expert review of my then 5 year old niece's 73,000 pages of medical records. They also had video evidence of my sister disposing of an anticoagulant medication meant for my niece. Following this incident, my niece had developed a life threatening blood clot that hospital staff reported would not have been possible if she'd received the intended dose. This led to yet another lengthy stay in the picu. The detective reached out to my family and even after the previous disaster, we thought this time would be different.
- [43:46]
Andrea's Mother
And we talked to the detective and gave him all the background we could. Yeah, I was really hopeful. I just was listening to a book in the car and one of the comments was the danger of having getting your hopes up is that they could be dashed. And I thought that very much applies to this because I was very hopeful in that case. But it didn't go anywhere.
- [44:15]
Andrea Dunlop
Throughout all of this, through the death of one baby and yet another investigation, At a different hospital than the first one. Megan's husband and in laws stood by her. During the second investigation, Megan's father in law even told the police this is a witch hunt just like last time. Their commitment to remaining in denial and their financial support of Megan has cost the kids any hope they had of a safe childhood.
- [44:42]
Mike Dunlop
No one person could have stopped her, but all of us together could have.
- [44:47]
Andrea's Mother
We could have originally. But I can understand their being reluctant. I don't know if they were ever inclined to do that, but I could understand they're being reluctant because they saw first investigation, nothing happened. Second investigation, nothing happened.
- [45:03]
Mike Dunlop
Right. And as grandparents, they don't have any rights, you know, so it's like if they, if their son turns on them.
- [45:09]
Andrea's Mother
So if they decided to take the kids away, then they would. I'm sure at, on some level they love the kids.
- [45:17]
Mike Dunlop
I think so.
- [45:17]
Andrea's Mother
I think so.
- [45:18]
Mike Dunlop
I don't question, I don't question whether they love the kids. And on some level it's like, I mean, I have such complicated feelings about them because I want those kids to have people that love them. I don't want them to be alone, isolated with Megan. And I think the person I have the strongest feelings about is Andy because I'm like, you are a collaborator now. You're not just an enabler. You are the person that could have stopped this. You're the person who has legal rights and you didn't. And you had a duty to protect your children.
- [45:54]
Andrea's Mother
You have one job and that's to protect your kids.
- [45:57]
Mike Dunlop
To protect your kids. And you didn't do it. And you abdicated that 100%. You've been presented with so much evidence about the abuse, so much evidence about the, about her deception and you have chosen to disregard all of that.
- [46:14]
Andrea Dunlop
I always wonder what story Megan and Andy tell their children about where the rest of their family is. I know we're the villains in that house that we, in addition to all of those scheming doctors who keep reporting her, are the scapegoats. And sometimes it's hard not to think about what might have been.
- [46:35]
Mike Dunlop
I know what good parents you were and grew up in the same house. And like I know how much we would have loved to be in those kids lives.
- [46:43]
Andrea's Mother
Oh, we would have.
- [46:44]
Mike Dunlop
And they missed out on so much.
- [46:47]
Andrea's Mother
Yeah. I feel like we had so much love to give and didn't have the opportunity, so. And I think about how much we love your kids now and how much we enjoy spending time with them and it's such a special relationship and, you know, and it's. It's just a shame that Megan's children have missed out on that, and we've missed out on that.
- [47:13]
Andrea's Father
The interesting thing in the future is going to be as the children get older and older, you know, they are obviously going to be exposed to a lot of, you know, what happened to me when I was younger. And in the daughter's case, that was. Her entire early life was spent in hospitals. So I think it's going to be interesting to watch. And I, you know, hope springs eternal, and I think that I don't think we'll be reunited with Megan, but I look forward to the possibility of being reunited with the children and. But I think they're, you know, time is a great healer because once they're outside a certain age group, they're protected by themselves. I mean, you know, why are you giving me this? Why are you doing this to me? Why I don't feel ill, et cetera, et cetera. And you've done some really interesting interviews with the recognition, and I think part of the great work that you're doing and part of the resources that we're very happy to provide are for the surviving children, because talk about a crisis and a catharsis when they realize that all the stuff they've been through was created. And, you know, I think they come from strong genes. I think they'll be strong children.
- [48:47]
Andrea Dunlop
As I said in the finale of our last season, this show has always been a sort of love letter to my niece and nephew, strange though that may be to say about a true crime podcast. And for this reason especially, it was important to me to capture my parents voices here in this time capsule of the Dunlop family saga. My parents are fortunately still in good health, but they're in their 70s. There is time still, but it's not infinite. So to my niece and nephew, just know the door is open and that we're holding out hope. I hope you get to meet your grandparents someday. They're wonderful people. You deserved to have them in your lives, and I'm sorry you didn't. And I'll let them have the final word.
- [49:34]
Mike Dunlop
What would you want to tell them now and then?
- [49:37]
Andrea's Mother
What do you hope for them in the future? I hope for good health, mental and physical, and I hope they are able to see the situation at some point for what it really is and was. Maybe they'll listen to your podcast and realize that people. People did see, people did care, and we did all we could do. So I hope that they. I hope that someday they realize that.
- [50:11]
Andrea's Father
That we're still here. And we'll always welcome them and we'll always tell them the truth. And it's not that we hate Megan. It's not that we dispute anything adversarial against your mother is that we know the truth. And when you look at people, when people tell you something, you have to look at what the motivation is. And as they get older, having to explain to them that what possibly could have been our motive other than to protect them. I mean, what other possible motive? Financial? Their publicity? So what did we gain from trying to protect them? And that will be my sort of rationale explanation. And hopefully I live long enough to. To see them. But that is the message I want to pass. From a pure, logical standpoint, why would we have ever done this? And we did it not for Megan. We did it for you. We were protecting you.
- [51:26]
Mike Dunlop
No.
- [51:27]
Andrea Dunlop
Nobody should believe me. Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.
- [51:32]
Mike Dunlop
Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Carmouche.