S05 Ep03: Constant Crisis

Summary

Nobody Should Believe Me: Season 5, Episode 3 - "Constant Crisis"

Introduction

In the third episode of Season 5, titled "Constant Crisis," Andrea Dunlop delves deep into the tumultuous life of Sophie Hartman, a single mother whose relentless series of crises raises red flags about potential Munchausen by Proxy abuse. This episode unpacks the intricate dynamics of Sophie's family life, her daughters' challenges, and the community's growing suspicions.

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Sophie's Arrival in the Pacific Northwest

Sophie Hartman's move to the Pacific Northwest in 2015 marked the beginning of a series of escalating crises for her family. After finalizing the adoption of her two daughters, C and M, Sophie relocated from Zambia to Seattle, ostensibly to provide better medical care for C at the renowned Seattle Children's Hospital.

Andrea Dunlop [07:05]: "After See's adoption was finalized, she told church friends she'd been called there by God to others... in this part of her police interview, she offered a more secular explanation."

Despite choosing a top-tier medical facility, Sophie relocated far from her familial support system, raising questions about her motivations and the sustainability of such a move.

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C's Health Struggles and Medical Odyssey

From the moment they arrived in the U.S., C's health was a central concern. Sophie reported severe withdrawal symptoms due to in utero drug exposure, which necessitated constant medical attention. Over the years, C underwent multiple treatments and faced a rare neurological condition, alternating hemiplegia of childhood (AHC).

Sophie Hartman [11:22]: "The neurologist had said... So we decided to do genetic testing at that time."

C's condition required numerous doctor visits, therapies, and surgeries, placing immense strain on the family's finances and Sophie's ability to manage daily life.

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Em's Intensive Gymnastics Program

While C battled health issues, Sophie's older daughter, Em, was immersed in an elite gymnastics program aimed at qualifying for the National Olympic team for juniors. The Metropolitan Gym in Kent, Washington, became the family's focal point, demanding rigorous training schedules.

Michelle [15:07]: "They were working towards a Tops program, which is working towards the National Olympic team for juniors."

The demanding nature of Em's training meant long hours, extensive travel, and significant financial investment, further complicating the family's already strained resources.

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Financial Support and Fundraising Efforts

Sophie managed the financial burdens through relentless fundraising efforts, leveraging her church community and social media platforms. Fundraisers included GoFundMe campaigns and church-sponsored events, which raised substantial funds for medical equipment and specialized vehicles.

Andrea Dunlop [38:15]: "From a police interview with a friend from Pursuit Northwest, the church that Sophie joined after moving to Seattle... 'The church helped raise over $30,000 to help Sophie purchase a wheelchair accessible vehicle.'"

Despite these efforts, questions lingered about the sustainability and sufficiency of these funds to cover ongoing expenses related to C's medical care and Em's gymnastics training.

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Community Observations and Growing Suspicion

Fellow parents at the Metropolitan Gym began to notice inconsistencies in Sophie's story and the logistical impossibilities of her lifestyle as a single, unemployed mother. The daily two-hour commute with two children, including a medically fragile toddler, seemed implausible without a stable income.

Unnamed Gym Parent [18:38]: "It's at least two hours. Well, it's an. Yeah, it's two hours. And when I heard that, I was like, what? Like that's crazy to do with two kids in the car."

Additionally, Sophie's frequent emphasis on her daughters' race and her behavior during gym meets raised further suspicions about her intentions and the authenticity of her narratives.

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Sophie’s Use of Race for Attention

Sophie often highlighted her daughters' racial identities, asserting that they were the only black children at the gym, which many perceived as a tactic to garner sympathy and attention rather than genuine advocacy.

Unnamed Gym Parent [47:11]: "She would make them feel bad. So she would, like, scold a kid for, like, don't clap near my daughter's hair..."

Andrea enlisted the expertise of Chad Goler, a transracial adoption consultant, who commented on how such behavior can be performative and more about the mother's image than the children's well-being.

Chad Goler: "Sometimes that... it becomes more performative. Something is... interesting because... [Sophie's actions] give her a kind of upper hand in a given situation."

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Financial Discrepancies and Unexplained Expenses

The episode meticulously examines the financial gaps in Sophie's story. Despite her claims of being unemployed, the substantial costs associated with C's medical treatments and Em's gymnastics were hard to reconcile with her income sources.

Andrea Dunlop [36:26]: "I have to break in here as an author who has worked in and around book publishing for 20 years to let you know that Sophie's book was not a source of income."

The self-published memoir, although professionally produced, unlikely covered the extensive financial needs, leading to questions about unaccounted income sources.

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Expert Insights and Unraveling the Truth

Andrea consults experts to understand Sophie's behavior patterns, drawing parallels with Munchausen by Proxy tendencies, where a caregiver fabricates or induces illness in a child to gain attention and sympathy.

The cumulative evidence—from constant crises, financial inconsistencies, to manipulative behavior—paints a distressing picture of a mother potentially abusing her children's vulnerabilities for personal gain.

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Conclusion

"Constant Crisis" offers a compelling exploration of Sophie Hartman's complex family dynamics, raising important questions about the blurred lines between genuine parental concern and manipulative behavior. Through meticulous research, expert interviews, and firsthand accounts, Andrea Dunlop unearthed unsettling truths that challenge listeners to reconsider what they believe about those closest to them.

Andrea Dunlop: "Nobody Should Believe Me... unravels these complex and terrifying stories, shedding light on an unspeakable crime."

As the episode concludes, the audience is left contemplating the profound impacts of Munchausen by Proxy and the lengths to which perpetrators may go to maintain their facade of perpetual crisis.

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Notable Quotes

• Andrea Dunlop [00:04]: "True Story Media before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners."

• Sophie Hartman [07:05]: "We had friends out here from Kirkland and I had come out to visit when I moved back from Zambia."

• Michelle [15:07]: "They were working towards a Tops program, which is working towards the National Olympic team for juniors."

• Unnamed Gym Parent [18:38]: "It's at least two hours. Well, it's an. Yeah, it's two hours. And when I heard that, I was like, what?"

• Andrea Dunlop [36:26]: "None of this looks DIY. This could easily have been a $10,000 investment on Sophie's part."

• Chad Goler: "Sometimes that something is... interesting because even in spaces where they want to celebrate blackness, they still have to be the main person."

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Final Thoughts

"Constant Crisis" serves as a chilling reminder of the complexities surrounding Munchausen by Proxy abuse. By dissecting Sophie's actions and the subsequent impact on her children, Andrea Dunlop not only tells a harrowing true story but also educates listeners on recognizing and understanding the signs of this insidious form of abuse.

Transcript

[Andrea Dunlop]

True Story Media before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, Please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help with the elements of evangelical missionary work and transracial adoption. In this season's case, I've gone into some unfamiliar territory, but one thing about this story that feels very familiar is the way that Sophie Hartman appears to forever be in some kind of crisis. She seemed to move from one big drama to the next. This was one of the primary things we heard from the numerous folks we spoke to on background for this story. Whether it was people who knew Sophie in high school or over the last few years here in Seattle, they told us there always seemed to be something. Whether it was Sophie's own health issues or dramas, this big adoption saga or something having to do with one of her daughters, Sophie was constantly mired in some kind of battle. And this is something I remember so vividly with my sister Megan, her constant dramas and our attempts to explain them away. So, yes, okay, Megan shaved off her hair in high school and pretended to be losing it. But you know, teenage girls go through stuff. Okay, so she cashed all those bad checks, but she was really embarrassed about it, and she probably learned her lesson, right? Nobody's perfect. Okay, so she did fake a whole pregnancy. But, you know, we didn't like that boyfriend she was with. Maybe this is his fault somehow. And now she's got this new boyfriend and he seems so nice, and maybe he'll help even her out. Maybe this is all behind us now. But it was never behind us. And what was coming was always worse than the last thing. It wasn't until I started talking to experts that I understood how compulsive Megan's behavior had really. She had this need to keep upping the ante, like she was an addict whose tolerance was increasing and it seemed to destroy everything in her path. So we kept waiting for the crisis to be over. But the truth was, we could patch the holes. My parents could bail her out one more time, we could make excuses for her once again, but it would never, ever be over. We have plenty of evidence, both from Sophie's own journals and from the recollections of folks we spoke to on background, that Sophie's pattern of constant crisis began long before Zambia, but certainly it escalated once she went abroad. In her memoir, Sophie tells this heroic story of emerging victorious after an agonizing battle to adopt her daughters. So, okay, the battle is won. Smooth sailing now, right? But in a pattern that would ratchet up dramatically over the next several years. For Sophie and her girls, the minute one crisis faded, the next was just beginning. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop and this is Nobody Should Believe. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be. Well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, the Mother Next Door is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon. I co authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I am very excited to share with you. The audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Be Honest When's the last time you had a homemade meal? We get it. Between meetings, workout classes, and the kids after school sports, who's got time to cook? That's where HelloFresh comes in. No matter how busy you get, HelloFresh has everything you need to get an easy home cooked meal on the table with flavor packed recipes like Parmesan Herb Crusted Salmon. You'll be filling your kitchen with the cozy aromas of a homemade meal in no time. So go ahead, try HelloFresh. It's homemade made easy. Learn [e-mail] if you'd like to support the show. The best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right, you can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For even more, you can also find us on YouTube where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. There are conflicting accounts of what brought Sophie to the Pacific Northwest in 2015. After See's adoption was finalized, she told church friends she'd been called there by God to others, as in this part of her police interview, she offered a more secular explanation.

[Sophie Hartman]

Where Can I ask where your family is? Like where? My family's in Michigan. What brought you out to Washington? We had friends out here from Kirkland and I had come out to visit when I moved back from Zambia. I knew I didn't really want to live in Michigan because it's freezing. And after living in Zambia, like also you're like, but I loved it out here. I knew that Seattle Children's was like this renowned hospital.

[Andrea Dunlop]

She's right, by the way. Seattle Children's is a renowned pediatric hospital. They are consistently ranked one of the best children's hospitals in the U.S. news & World Report and have never been off that list since they started it 30 years ago. I can tell you from growing up here and spending most of my adult life here that Seattle Children's is a singularly beloved institution. However, it's worth noting that luckily there are many great pediatric hospitals around the country, including places like Mott Hospital in Michigan or Lurie Children's in Chicago or or any number of other places that would have been closer to where Sophie grew up and where her family was. So again, while the Pacific Northwest is a lovely place to live, it just seems strange to move so far away from your family when you've just become a very young single mom of two. Even this explanation about the cold just feels weird. It's true that Seattle doesn't get extreme weather in the winters, but our winters are not warm. In fact, they're pretty notoriously dreary. As a reminder, we are referring to Sophie's youngest daughter as C and her eldest daughter as M. Sophie recounts serious concerns about C's health going back to her birth in June of 2014. In one of C's first doctor visits in the US a checkup at the University of Washington's center for Adoptive Medicine, Sophie tells them that Cee suffered from such severe withdrawal symptoms due to in utero drug exposure that the orphanage didn't know if she'd survive. It's impossible to know for sure what kind of shape C and M were really in when they moved to the States. Sophie describes the conditions in Zambia as dire, though photos of the girls from this time show them looking happy and healthy and I have to say, very adorable. It's important to say, of course, that you can never judge someone's health by looking at them, but given Sophie's account of the orphanage, the absence of outward signs of distress or malnourishment are notable. And it was nice in these photos, honestly, to just see the girls as little humans. You know, the more we dug into this case and talked to people who'd known them, the more C and M started to come into focus. People remembered Em as being this very quiet, self sufficient, talented, disciplined kid, while C was really more on the bubbly side and very outgoing and fun to be around. As Sophie and her daughters settle into life in the Pacific Northwest after their move in 2015, their lives become dominated by two things. The first is C's medical appointments. Almost immediately upon arriving, C is going to the doctor constantly for myriad issues. C's health appears to dominate much of Sophie's Time right from the jump. From the records we have, we know that when Sophie originally brought C to the States, she was treated for giardia. This is a very common parasitic infection that is fortunately easily treatable. In the first few years of her life, Sophie reported C having a variety of vomiting spells, constipation, and other gastrointestinal issues. This ultimately resulted in the placement of a G tube. This is a surgically placed feeding tube in 2017 and a sarcostomy tube, which is used to flush a Child's bowels in 2018. Sofie also reported frequent seizures and episodes of full body paralysis. C used a number of different mobility aids during this time, including leg braces and a wheelchair. And three days after her third birthday, Cee was given a devastating diagnosis of a rare neurological condition called ahc, alternating hemiplegia of childhood that causes paralysis and weakness on one or both sides of the body. The instance of this disease, one in a million. Over the next five years, Cee was seen at various hospitals as Sophie tried to get answers about her daughter's complex health issues. During her 2021 interview with Renton PD's Detective Adele O'Rourke and Detective Jason Rangley, Sophie describes this medical odyssey.

[Sophie Hartman]

We moved back to the States basically because I knew. Because I was living overseas in India. Oh, wow. And I knew that there was something medical going on, and we just don't have access to care. We immediately were seen at Seattle Children's. So basically, we started at Seattle Children's, and kind of the first diagnostic that they did was a brain mri. And that indicated some brain damage that they likened thinking it's, like, due to drug and alcohol exposures. Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. So that was initial. Like, okay. Then I was still noticing a very, like, episodic, like, she's not herself. Like, she's still so young, but she's not herself. She's not okay.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Sophie Hartman]

But then the next day she's okay. The next day she's kind of not. So we started going through, like, EEG tests. I'm sorry, I don't know anything medical. EEG is where they, like, put up, like, stickers on your head, and it kind of reads your brain activity level for, like, epilepsy or, like, an episodic disorder. Okay, that makes sense. So we went through a few of those. Nothing really came of it, but I just kind of kept pushing. I'm like, no, something's going on here. I don't know what this is, but it's like, one day she's paralyzed. One day oh, my God. What is. What is the paralyzed look like? That's so scary to me. So she will be like, paralyzed. Oh, my God. Like, I don't know, out of nowhere. Like a slow progression. Yeah. Or it'll be like one side and then it kind of goes to the other side. Oh, my God. Anyways, how does.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Is it something like she's kind of playing, like walking and then it hits her or something?

[Sophie Hartman]

Trigger. It's usually like a trigger. So like sometimes like cold weather or exposure to water or high emotions. So like, if she's super excited, like Christmas morning. Yeah. Almost always she goes into episode because she's so excited. Yeah. And then it's like, you know, so I have to like, okay, let's put the presents out all through the month of December so you can see so it's not this, like, explosive excitement.

[Andrea Dunlop]

C did have an abnormal MRI when she first arrived in the US which could, as Sophie alludes to here, indicate some damage that was done in utero. This piece about the MRI at least, is verifiable, and we'll come back to it as we dig more into the medical history. Based on the list of visits and procedures we've been able to put together, which is by no means a complete list, as well as so Sophie's own description of the care that Z required. It's hard to imagine that the family had time for much else. And yet it's during this time that Sophie jumps into one of the most demanding roles imaginable, being the mom of a young gymnast on the Olympic track. Sophie's older daughter Em, started gymnastics when the family moved to Washington when em was about 6. So my daughter Fiona is 6 right now, and already many of my fellow kindergarten parents are getting pulled into aggressive sports scheduling. I myself was a serious athlete growing up, and I went on to play tennis in college. But honestly, it was nothing like these kids have going on today. And I could go on a whole tangent here about this relentless drive to optimize our children, but needless to say, I see a lot of my fellow parents basically taking on their kids sports lives as a whole second job. So I have pretty immediate context for this. This made me very curious about these two sides of Sophie's life, where one daughter is in a constant state of crisis with her health, and the other one is pursuing elite gymnastics. So we spoke to someone who knew the family during this time.

[Michelle]

I know Sophie through a gym that we both attended for our children, and she was a parent there. Obviously we did all of our meets Together. All parents, usually from gym to gym, hang out together. So I know her just through communications and interactions at Metropolitan.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Michelle was a fellow gymnastics parent at the gym in Kent, Washington, located about an hour south of Seattle. And this gym wasn't little kids bopping around doing cartwheels. It was serious business in the program.

[Michelle]

That our daughters were in. They were working towards a Tops. Tops program, which is working towards the National Olympic team for juniors. So they were doing online school, homeschooling, and so they were there when the gym was empty every day. So it's a lot more interaction when you're dropping kids off and picking kids up, because you're not dealing with a lot of other parents that are doing rec, gym or evening practices. So a little more intense in general.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Michelle said the parents got along. So it sounds like when you first met Sophie, she seemed nice, she seemed sweet. Kind of sounds like she wanted to be, like, really involved and was, like, kind of looking to connect with the other families. Yep. What were your impressions of her daughters? Because I assume, like, I assume the youngest was there with her quite a.

[Michelle]

Bit as well, everywhere she went. Yeah. Never, Never alone, ever. Always had the youngest daughter with. With her. The oldest daughter, it was.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Is.

[Michelle]

Was. Could still be a fantastic gymnast. Very naturally talented, very great at it. Had the drive, had the strength, had the right attitude, honestly, like, really just all around. Everybody loved watching at meets and every. Like, the judges were always looking for her and which is great. That's what you want. Judges are waiting to see your kids perform. And really fantastic athlete all around. And having the youngest daughter with her always, sometimes in a wheelchair, walking around, sometimes with leg braces on, walking around. Always had a clothing bag on her, always was wearing a diaper. Said she wasn't potty trained. Would have, like, good days where, like I said, she was walking around and was able to get into the gym and stuff. And then really bad days where, you know, she's been hospitalized for the last week and then in a wheelchair for the next month and all those things. But everybody just kind of learned to go with those ebb and flows of that. And it was always something going on there. There was always like some. Some thing going on. Always a story to talk, always about, like, how the youngest always had an issue and how we had to mispractice because of this or. Or some reason or whatever for. For not being able to attend a meet or to be at practice or always something with the youngest child throughout.

[Andrea Dunlop]

The first six years of her life. Cee is at the Doctor all the time for testing evaluations, ER visits, and those gastrointestinal surgeries. And this is all happening while Sophie is keeping up with her older daughter Em's demanding gymnastics schedule. And it doesn't appear that Sophie had much help, if any, on the childcare front. So she took C along with her. Another mom from the gym who asked not to be identified by name, recalled the little girl's constant presence.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

So the younger daughter was often there all the time.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Okay.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Because when she started, she was living in Bellingham.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Okay.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

So she was driving to Kent every day long. Every day.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I mean, how long would you say that drive is like?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

It's at least two hours. Well, it's an. Yeah, it's two hours. And when I heard that, I was like, what? Like that's crazy to do with two kids in the car.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I couldn't even.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

To me I'm like, there's so many gyms along anyways. That was just like why. I did not understand why somebody would do that. Because practice is four to five hours. There's no time for school, there's no time for anything. No social life, no home life, no anything. And practice didn't get over till 8:30 at night. So they were often like staying in hotels or like random. I don't know where they were staying, but they would stay overnight because we'd have practice Friday night and then we'd have practice Saturday morning. So to go home and then come back made no sense. So they, a lot of times Friday nights they would stay in a hotel.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That's intense.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

And then. Yeah, besides the cost of it, the gas, the. I mean and all of that. So that's how I knew. I knew of her that way. Like, oh, she's the person that drives down from Bellingham literally every day.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And is there something special about. So this is that Metro, right? Like, is there something special about Metro where like this is the only gym that has that level of program? No. We've all seen the interview clips with parents that they trot out in the feel good stories during the Olympics about all the sacrifices that the athletes families made so that they could pursue their Olympic dreams. But while every person we spoke to said that Em was indeed a talented gymnast and was in a serious gymnastics program, this gym isn't some one of a kind Olympian factory. In fact, there's a different gym incidentally, about an hour closer to where Sophie lived at the time. That is a U.S. national training center. And again, Em was 6 when they started this program. And kids that age don't Decide to drive 4 hours round trip to do gymnastics all day, every day. That's on the parents. And as you can probably hear in this audio, I am absolutely baffled by this detail. I have two young kids and long car trips with them are generally not a good time. You basically pack snacks, charge up the tablets and pray. I just truly cannot wrap my head around this commute. Especially for a single mom with a medically fragile child who needs the level of care that Sophie said she needed. Also interestingly, Sophie isn't working throughout this time. From what we could gather, she appeared to be living on a combination of state benefits and likely some financial assistance from her family. So while I understand wanting to support your kids hobbies, this is just so extreme. And the moms we spoke to remember Sophie constantly talking about the hardships of caring for C. She would, she would.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Show everybody her braces and then Sophie would talk about, you know, where they went to get them and what they had to do to get them and the person who they had made them specially for, for her. Because I remember she talked about how they had ponies on them. Pink, purple ponies I think, but. And there was somebody, there was a guy there that was a really tall big guy and she would always like jump up on him. Like jump up, like play like, you know, like jump on him. Like she loved to do that, like jump up on him all the time when she was like running around and happy and like playing. But then some days she'd come in and she would just be like covered in a blanket and you know, she'd have like band aids on her hand, you know, and Sophie would tell us, oh, she's had a really bad night. Really bad night. Just a really bad night. But then she wouldn't say anything. Okay, so she wanted you to like what happened?

[Andrea Dunlop]

It was sort of a bid for what happened.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Yeah. But she would tell anybody what, like she wouldn't embellish on what the bad night was.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What were your impressions of the older daughter? Just obviously she's a super talented gymnast.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Yes, very. Yeah, yeah. She seemed very, I mean very self sufficient, very, you know, she took care of herself basically. I mean she did everything herself. She, you know, there's. She was nice, she was quiet, she was just, you know, she didn't really talk about much. I mean I wasn't around her a ton but when I was, she was just very quiet and you know, well mannered and calm.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Kind of reserved one about her business.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Yeah. Okay, when you say she took care.

[Sophie Hartman]

Of like everything herself. Do you mean like, I mean, you.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Said like self sufficient, but did you.

[Sophie Hartman]

See the older daughter having to be.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Kind of like caretakery in a way of like her mom and younger sibling?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Well, she would, I mean, you know, they would have, they always had like the gymnasts, they have all of their stuff in a backpack. They have their grips, they have, you know, all of their stuff. And a lot of the moms would have, because they were there for so long, they would have snacks, they would have, you know, all this stuff. And a lot of the moms would make sure that, you know, do you have this? Do you have this? You don't want to leave that stuff at the gym because it gets expensive if you lose it every time. And you know, she never asked her if she had any of that. She, I think, you know, she knew she had to have it with her. I mean, obviously they're going back to Bellingham, definitely leave it there. But she always made sure, you know, she, if the younger one was starting to run out into the gym, she grabbed her. She didn't, you know, it was never Sophie who went after her, it was always her. So, you know, on the mats, because you can't. There's a spot where it's like, you know, no, only gymnasts pass this point.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And what would Sophie be doing when that happened?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

She wouldn't do anything. She was just standing there.

[Andrea Dunlop]

These small details of the family's dynamic are really striking to me. Partly because I have kids almost the exact ages of M, who is around 6 at this time, and C, who was a toddler during this period. I'm just thinking about the struggle of getting my two out the door to kindergarten and preschool each day. And this is just that times a million. And listen, I'm not saying that Em didn't enjoy gymnastics, but with kids this age, the parents are the drivers. Especially with a training program so intense that the girls participating can't even attend normal school. Since she began her motherhood journey in Zambia, Sophie just seems to make choice after choice that pile on this self imposed hardship. Beginning with the decision to push through a transracial foreign adoption as a single woman with no job, whose own frontal lobe was barely fully developed, then choosing to move, move many states away from her entire support system, then putting her daughter in an all consuming sports program, a two hour drive from home while caring with a younger child with a debilitating condition and setting aside the piece about C's medical issues. And we'll get into all of that. None of these circumstances befell Sophie. She chose all of this. I just can't square it. Foreign I genuinely could not be more excited to tell you about our next sponsor because I am obsessed with this brand. I had already done some holiday shopping for other people on quints because I had heard so much about their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I got one for my husband and I got a Quint gift card for my daughter's teacher. So I was thrilled when they came on as a sponsor and I got to shop for myself. 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Head to thrivemarket.com nobody and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com nobody thrivemarket.com nobody and remember that shopping our sponsors helps support the show. As Cee got older, her condition appeared to worsen and as part of her treatment, she enrolled in various therapies to help with her challenges with cognition and movement. From her speech pathologist to her occupational therapist to the instructor at her horse riding school. Everyone seemed charmed by Cee, who is constantly smiling in pictures and videos from this time and is just generally pretty darn cute. She was more able to kind of get jokes and engage.

[Sophie Hartman]

She was always very, very polite.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Always. Thank you please. Super sweet. I really enjoyed her. You know, she could read stories with me and was understanding them well enough, could retell them pretty well, you know, with some visual support. But she's also five and you know, five year olds need that kind of stuff. She's a sweet little girl. A lot of the time she was talkative and excited to do the activities that I had sent home and put together. Yeah, yeah, she was really into horses and so a lot of the activities that I sent home were, you know, about that and she was lovely to work with.

[Sophie Hartman]

She talks about her dog, ponies, her sister and donuts mainly. She talks about food all the time. Yeah, it's one of her favorite subjects. She's like, oh, we're going to go and get donuts after this.

[Andrea Dunlop]

So eventually Sophie moves to the south end of Seattle. We couldn't confirm the reason for this move, but the family landed in Renton, putting them within five miles of the gym where Em was still training for hours each day. While the move makes their daily Commute. Less cumbersome. C's condition, according to Sophie, continues to baffle doctors.

[Sophie Hartman]

It would be like, you could watch it on one side of her body, be, like, all the way limp. And then if she could crawl, she would be, like, crawling with that one side and then dragging the other side. Oh, my God. And then it would switch, you know, go to the other side. And I'm like, I'm a crazy person. Like, what is happening? And every time I go in, like, to the doctor, she wouldn't be exhibiting those symptoms. I'm like, I know this sounds crazy, but I'm not making this up. This is not. This is not.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, well, you're the mom.

[Sophie Hartman]

Yeah. So, anyways, we decided. We started with the neurologist at Seattle Children's to pursue genetic testing because we're like. And the. The neurologist had said, seen. So we decided to do genetic testing at that time. Then the neurologist, like, right before she was putting in the order or she put in the order, she went on emergency maternity leave. So when a provider has put in the order, if they're not there, then you have to either get approval from someone else on their team. We have to wait until they're back. Well, I think she went into labor really early or something because it was an emergency. It wasn't planned. Like, we. I knew she was pregnant or whatever.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Yeah.

[Sophie Hartman]

But so then once she went on emergency maternity leave, I was like, okay, we can't wait, like, the three, four months. Yeah. What other provider can we? You know, I'm like, these are the things that are going on. I don't want to wait. There's more GI Stuff. Nothing that they're doing is working. We're just trying medicine, medicine, medicine, and it's not working. So can we have a referral to go to Mary Bridge Children's for a second opinion? So we got that. And. And is that Mary Bridge in Tacoma? Okay. So we got that, and I got on the phone with them, and I was like, hey, I'm not super happy with our care at Seattle Children's. We are struggling because I just don't feel like they take things seriously. Also, because my daughter appears to have a pretty severe but episodic condition. And the problem is that if I can't get her in that day, then they don't see what I'm talking about. And I'm taking videos. I'm sending them videos, and they're like, oh, this. You know, what did they say about the videos? They were just like, oh, that's odd. Or, oh, that does look like dystonia. But then nothing would ever happen like abnormal positioning. So that's another type of episode which is like. So you see, like, kids who have really severe, like, cerebral palsy. Their body position gets locked. That's from, like, high muscle tone.

[Andrea Dunlop]

As you heard, Sophie seems to move from doctor to doctor, seeking answers. And you also may be thinking, with all this caretaking of C and M's gymnastics stuff, this must be getting expensive. And again, no one we spoke to or who the police spoke to had any recollection of Sophie having a job. This quandary of how she was participating in one of the most expensive youth sports also confused her fellow gymnastics moms.

[Michelle]

There was. There was one mom who really helped a lot with them, and this mom, like, picked up, dropped off. They traveled with wind. Sophie couldn't travel because of her youngest daughter. They took her on travel meets. They. I don't honestly know how gymnastics was paid for. It must have been a scholarship situation. I mean, gymnastics is expensive sport. Just tuition and assessment fees alone, you're like almost 12 grand a year. That's. That's outside of airfare, hotels, food, all the things that it takes place to travel for gymnastics. I mean, I don't know. Like, I know that Metropolitan has a huge booster club and, like, people donate to it and businesses donate to it, and you have to volunteer in order to. You have to be a part of the booster club. You have to register and you have to do so many volunteer hours in order to get, like, things paid for.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Unclear whether Sophie did any volunteer work at the gym, but hard to see where she would have found the time. But this whole situation just felt off to many of the parents at the gym.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

I remember talking about it with another mom. I just thought it was. I just thought it was the whole. I thought the whole situation was strange in that she has a very sick kid. You know, when I. When we knew how sick she was and she has to go to all of these doctor's appointments, she would start to talk about money and how, you know, she doesn't have any money and she needs fundraisers and all this stuff. And then she picks that. Not picks, but her daughter is in the most. One of the most expensive sports. I would also think, like, where does she get her money from? Like, she does not seem to have a job. So because she's here all the time, she's with, you know, and money is always going out, so where is the money coming in from? I mean, I know she Wrote a book, but that could not be that much, that can't bring in that much profit. I figured that she was getting money from her church and I was guessing, but I don't know.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I have to break in here as an author who has worked in and around book publishing for 20 years to let you know that Sophie's book was not a source of income. Book advances can vary wide, widely, but for a first time author, a typical advance is somewhere between $5,000 and $50,000, and that's if you sell your book to a publisher. Now, Sophie's memoir is self published, meaning she had to front all of the costs for production. And I will say this book looks pretty professionally produced, as does the sweeping cinematic book trailer she made to market it. None of this looks DIY. This could easily have been a $10,000 investment on Sophie's part. So frankly, I'd be shocked if Sophie came anywhere near to breaking even on this project. And I'm not saying this to be mean about Sophie's author career. This book is just another thing that begs the question, where did all this money come from? The money for the adoptions, the money to go to Zambia in the first place, the money for gymnastics and all of C's treatments and therapies, Hell, their daily living expenses. Who is paying for all of this?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

So the fundraiser that your church did.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Were you a part of that? My husband's a senior pastor.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

We planted six years ago. Oh, okay.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And so I was there, yes.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

And he just felt like he was supposed to take like a love off.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Thing, you know, and invited the church.

[Michelle]

To, you know, give whatever they wanted.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Towards the vehicle that Sophie needed for wheelchair.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

It's like a wheelchair accessible suv, something.

[Michelle]

Like that, with like a ramp.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And I believe the church raised about.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Around $30,000, something like that.

[Andrea Dunlop]

This is from a police interview with a friend from Pursuit Northwest, the church that Sophie joined after moving to Seattle. As she says, the church helped raise over $30,000 to help Sophie purchase a wheelchair accessible vehicle. This brings us back to that feel good story we heard at the top of episode one about fundraising for the special van for C. So family friends are banding together.

[Sophie Hartman]

They're trying to raise money, and this is something that is, you know, no little ask.

[Andrea Dunlop]

The fundraiser came about a year after Sophie started taking C to Duke University Medical center in North Carolina to visit their renowned AHC clinic. Ahc, or alternating hemiplegia of childhood, is a rare and potentially debilitating neurological condition. We're going to bring in an expert in an upcoming episode to help us better understand ahc. But this was the diagnosis Sophie reported to friends, family and the news media during this time. By the time she was fundraising for C's van, Sophie was well versed in asking for money. From m's adoption in 2014 onward, there were frequent asks for money. These came from GoFundMes marathon beneficiaries, and even a Catholic school that raised money for children with disabilities. Sophie, a single, unemployed mother of two, was always raising money. And there was often a particular emphasis on leaning on her community's sense of Christian charity. You mentioned that you thought she was getting some money from the church. Is that something that she talked about? Or like, is that on social media? Like, how did you get that impression?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Just she talked about. She was very into her church. And the fundamentals fundraisers seem to go through the church. From what I noticed from, like, they were posted on her church, the church sites a lot.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I think she had sort of a social media account that was dedicated to her younger daughter and that was about raising money or raising awareness or following her journey or all that, everything.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

So she had a huge fundraiser at one point point to raise money to get a, like a handicap accessible, like, car vehicle, like a pilot. I think it was a Honda pilot that she got. I mean, that's expensive. Those are not cheap cars. And she got it. So she raised enough money. And I mean, she sold sweatshirts. I don't know how that much could go to selling sweatshirts from sweatshirts to get a car.

[Andrea Dunlop]

But yeah, sounds like maybe there was a couple of different.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

I'm sure that were probably. Yeah, I'm sure. So. And that I'm pretty sure. I mean, again, I'm not positive, but I think that was sponsored by the church. It went through the church and then the dealership did something with it too. So because the younger one was getting a new wheelchair that was going to. That had like, that was bigger because she was getting bigger and she couldn't lift her anymore.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And did you, did you see the younger one in her wheelchair?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

I never saw her in a wheelchair. I saw her in a stroller, but never a wheelchair.

[Andrea Dunlop]

The fundraisers, which we heard about earlier in this series for this wheelchair accessible car, went on to raise just over $45,000, which got them the car, along with a discount from the dealership. And from the schedule she was keeping with the girls alone, which included homeschooling, gymnastics, equine therapy, and all the doctor's appointments, there seemed to be no time for a job. And another thing that stands out to me, no partner. We've talked quite a bit about dads in these cases in previous seasons, and they really run the gamut from dads like George Honeycutt and Ryan Crawford who move heaven and earth to protect their kids, to dads like Lou Pelletier and Jack Kowalski, who not only enable this abuse, but take a pretty active role in it. But in this case, there were no partners in Sophie's life at all. This is not a group that loves to go to work. With the exception of Hope Yubara, building a career is just not the central focus of most of these women's lives. And there's often confusion in these cases about the difference between munch housing behaviors and what are known as malingering behaviors, where someone engages in medical deception for a tangible benefit like money or in order to evade something like military service or going to work. And while Sophie was raising a lot of money during this time, it seemingly wasn't the only motivator. These fundraisers were incredibly public, with Sophie and the girls appearing in commercials, Sophie speaking at benefit galas and lots and lots of social media activity in addition to coverage on the local news. Here again is that news report we heard at the top of the series.

[Sophie Hartman]

We just wanted to put their positive energy out there. And I can't tell you how fun to be around her smile. It's just so and so and just amazing. So I hope that, you know, they get the help that they need.

[Andrea Dunlop]

So while the spotlight was on Sophie for her heroic mothering, when the cameras were gone, Sophie's behavior around the girls seemed off. Here's a neighbor who spent a lot of time with the family. She's just an all powerful, very powerful force over there. Very mistrustful of, you know, she keeps the kids away from school. She keeps the kids away from other kids. I'm really kind of against home schooling. And she just couldn't imagine sending the kids to school. And I think the gymnastics for just kind of a way to keep her controlled. What was clear from all of the interviews is that C and M were rarely alone with other adults. Their world was very narrow, and Sophie was omnipresent. What was that from the director of the Invisible Man. What's wrong with Daddy? He got infected. And Blumhouse, producers of the Black Phone.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Something's happening to him. Can you hear me?

[Andrea Dunlop]

I can't understand you. Mommy.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

He's changing. Blake. Daddy, is that you?

[Andrea Dunlop]

Wolfman Attracted by Lebonnell rated R. Under 17. Out of middle without parent Only in theaters Friday. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Those painful parts of getting better with things like 24. 7 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful. Between recorded interviews with people who knew her and the folks we spoke to, a clearer picture of Sophie was really starting to emerge. Everyone spoke about how fixated she seemed on Cee's health issues. And another thing that she brought up a lot was her daughter's race. Here we are again with one of the gymnastics moms.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

I remember specifically we were on at a team at a meet in, like. I don't remember where we were. I want to say, like, Arizona or somewhere, but we were at the table, and we were getting up. I can't remember what we were doing. We were at a separate table, and the kids were all sitting at one table. And we were trying to tell the server, like, who our kids were, you know, and so I was pointing out, you know, oh, those are mine. And she's like, oh, it's really easy to find mine. Mine's the black one over there. It's kind of uncomfortable for anybody for a kid. For all of us, like, we're just like, okay. But that's basically how she. She was very, you know, or she would make, you know, a big deal about chalk getting in her hair or, you know, if somebody, you know, because, I mean, chalk is everywhere in the gym. Everywhere. You cannot, you know, if somebody happened to walk by and, you know, clap their hands near her hair, it was a huge deal because, no, nobody understood how hard it was to do her hair. I don't. I know. I understand that, but it didn't need to be, like, you didn't need to make kids feel bad about being near her. You're in a gym with chalk. It's gonna happen. So don't make them feel bad about it.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Would she kind of, like, get on other kids case?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Oh, yeah, Absolutely. Yes.

[Andrea Dunlop]

So, like, she would make them feel bad. So she would, like, scold a kid for, like, don't clap near my daughter's hair, because My daughter's hair. You don't understand because. And how would her daughter react in these moments?

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

I feel like she was embarrassed. You know.

[Andrea Dunlop]

We heard of other incidents from parents at the same gym about how Sophie would often make a point to bring up the girl's race.

[Michelle]

And like, at every meet, it was like, oh, look, I have the only black daughter out there on the gym in the meet. And, oh, look, she's the only black. Like, I can remember being at a meet specifically with another family at Metro. And she walked up and she's like, yet again, the only black athlete that's out there. And it's like, okay, well, not really. Maybe in this session, yes. But, like, in general, not the only one.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Now, a big note that I want to make here is that the moms we spoke to about these incidents at the gym are white. And I say this as a fellow white mom of white children. There might be dynamics here that we, as white moms of white children are not especially attuned to. And lack of diversity in sports, like gymnastics, is a very real thing. It's also true that the mention of the existence of race can make people extremely reactive. I am in the same basic demographic as these moms, and I was raised in the Pacific northwest in the 80s and 90s. The vibe around this was very much, we don't see color, so there's that. And while any individual anecdote about how Sophie discussed the race of her girls might be brushed off, as a mom doing her best with the tools she has, this came up again and again with people we spoke to. And many folks had the distinct impression that Sophie was using her daughter's race as a way to get attention for herself and also to give her a kind of upper hand in a given situation. Now, I don't feel entirely equipped to handle this discussion, so we asked Chad Goler, Sojourner artist, educator, and transracial adoption consultant, for his take on all of this. Whether good or bad, you're drawing attention, I'm sure. I can't imagine a world where her daughter appreciates that happening. So, I mean, I think your daughter wouldn't appreciate it happening. And I think that's when it becomes more performative. Sometimes that something is. Is interesting because even in spaces where they want to celebrate blackness, they still have to be the main person. So that wasn't really about the kid. First of all, you're in a gym. Don't take your kid to a gym. That's gymnastics. That's what they do. They chalk their hands. You're telling other kids, first of all.

[Unnamed Gym Parent]

Why are you rebuking other people's children?

[Andrea Dunlop]

I mean, there's so much. Yeah, there's a lot of layers. Stan your lane chat. But, yeah, I just think that based on what you just said, I think I call that unnecessary. And it'd be when we put over there, it doesn't really do anything. It seems like it's one of those false like, oh, look, I'm, you know, I'm being a sensitive, good mother or something like that. And there it is. This is the through line. Sophie forever at the center of the story. Her daughter's challenges. The harrowing situation in their homeland that Sophie describes herself rescuing them from her plight to snatch them from the jaws of the corrupt adoption system. C's interminable health troubles, the racism they encounter as black children. It's all about Sophie. But Sophie's carefully crafted narrative of her heroism in the face of suffering was about to start coming undone. Next time. But my observation, I've never seen a more normal kid in my life. You know I have. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Carmouche. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of mix medical child abuse, Please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.