You Might Also Like: The Oprah Podcast

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You Might Also Like: The Oprah Podcast" Released on February 13, 2025 by True Story Media

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Introduction

In the episode titled "You Might Also Like: The Oprah Podcast," renowned relationship therapist Esther Perel joins Oprah Winfrey to delve deep into the complexities of modern relationships. The conversation spans various topics, including the evolving nature of romance, communication challenges in marriages, and personal stories from guests navigating their unique relationship dynamics. Throughout the episode, both hosts emphasize the importance of understanding oneself and one's partner to foster healthier and more fulfilling connections.

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Valentine's Day and Relationship Dynamics

Oprah Winfrey opens the discussion by acknowledging the mixed feelings Valentine's Day can evoke—ranging from thoughts of romance to feelings of its absence. She introduces Esther Perel, highlighting her expertise as a relationship therapist and author.

• Oprah (00:00-02:05): Sets the stage by discussing Valentine's Day and introduces Esther Perel, praising her intuitive insights into human relationships.

• Esther Perel (01:00-02:00): Comments on how modern romance is undergoing significant changes, comparing it to the evolving perceptions of sex—from shame to expectation.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel (02:01): "Foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm."
(02:01)

This metaphor underscores the idea that intimacy is an ongoing process, not just confined to specific moments.

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Modern Romance and Expectations

Perel elaborates on the shifting landscape of romantic relationships in the contemporary world. She points out that individuals now seek partners to fulfill multiple roles—companion, confidant, intellectual equal, and passionate lover—all in one person. This consolidation of roles, traditionally distributed among a community, places immense pressure on modern relationships.

• Esther Perel (07:10-10:00): Discusses the unrealistic expectations placed on romantic partners today, highlighting the desire for a soulmate who fulfills every aspect of one's emotional and practical needs.

• Oprah Winfrey (08:50-09:18): Reflects on advice from Maya Angelou about viewing one's life as a whole pie, cautioning against expecting one person to represent the entirety of one's needs.

Key Insights:

• The overburdening of romantic relationships leads to disillusionment when partners inevitably fall short of fulfilling every expectation.
• Modern intimacy often becomes self-centered, focusing more on individual validation than mutual connection.

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Communication Challenges in Relationships

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding why couples frequently argue and how underlying issues of power, control, and unmet emotional needs drive these conflicts.

• Esther Perel (12:09-14:20): Breaks down the root causes of disputes in relationships into three main areas: power and control, closeness and care, and respect and recognition.

• Notable Example: A couple argues about a closet door, which symbolizes deeper battles over autonomy and respect rather than the door itself.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (13:09): "Power and control. People fight for closeness and care, trust. Do you have my back?"
(13:09)

Esther Perel (14:12): "It’s not about the closet... What they’re really fighting about is power and control."
(14:12)

These examples illustrate how seemingly trivial disagreements often mask more profound emotional struggles within relationships.

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Guest Sessions: Navigating Relationship Dynamics

The episode features multiple guest couples and individuals seeking advice on their relationship challenges. Each story offers unique insights into maintaining intimacy and communication amid life's complexities.

Christina and Stephan from Atlanta

Scenario:

• Married for nearly 10 years, raising three boys, one of whom has autism.
• Stephan feels exhausted from his wife's constant readiness for intimacy, while Christina struggles to find energy and desire after a long day.

Discussion Points:

• Esther Perel (18:07-24:40): Encourages Stephan to shift his perspective from seeking to make Christina ready for him to fostering mutual pleasure and understanding her needs.
• Suggests redefining sex as an experience rather than a performance, emphasizing desire as an autonomous act rather than a response.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (20:39): "Instead of thinking you are the norm and she's the problem, how do I get her to change?"
(20:39)

Esther Perel (22:17): "What do you want to experience there, what do you want to express there?"
(22:17)

Jen from Philadelphia

Scenario:

• Jen, a single mom, recently left a corporate job to take a year-long pause, leading to feelings of imbalance and reliance on her partner.

Discussion Points:

• Esther Perel (30:03-35:42): Advises Jen to embrace vulnerability and lean on her supportive partner instead of solely focusing on empowerment and independence.
• Highlights the opportunity for Jen to build trust and allow herself to receive support, overcoming her ingrained need for control.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (32:38): "You can lean back into it. You can lean into him and you can allow."
(32:38)

Oprah Winfrey (35:19): "I'm sure it's still there's still that little girl in there who wants to take charge."
(35:19)

Erica from Texas

Scenario:

• Married for 32 years with three adult children, Erica is grappling with doubts about her marriage following her mother's passing and her husband's retirement.

Discussion Points:

• Esther Perel (37:05-41:12): Encourages Erica to prioritize her own desires and pleasures, such as traveling and enjoying nature, rather than solely focusing on her responsibilities.
• Emphasizes the importance of self-care and reclaiming one's identity outside of caregiving roles.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (38:24): "Forget the 'we'. You have to go with a girlfriend, go with somebody else."
(38:24)

Esther Perel (40:38): "What do I wish for myself? What's one thing I could do that I would enjoy?"
(40:38)

Barbara from [Location Unspecified]

Scenario:

• Barbara, married for 20 years, describes her marriage as emotionally abusive and is dealing with trust issues and the aftermath of an affair.

Discussion Points:

• Esther Perel (43:35-46:17): Addresses Barbara's concerns about trusting herself and others after betrayal, advising her to reassess her trust-building approaches and the dynamics of modern dating.
• Suggests integrating new partners into her existing social circles to better gauge trustworthiness and compatibility.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (46:17): "Do things with people. You're gonna go whatever, bike, hike to a movie."
(46:17)

Esther Perel (46:44): "Don't make it contingent."
(46:44)

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The Importance of Trust and Connection

Throughout the episode, Perel emphasizes that trust is fundamental to any relationship. She discusses how modern dating practices can hinder the natural development of trust and suggests more integrated approaches to forming connections.

• Esther Perel (47:05-49:29): Reflects on her upbringing, highlighting the significance of community and shared experiences in rebuilding trust and fostering deep connections.
• Notable Insight: Trust is a "leap of faith" that develops through shared experiences and mutual understanding rather than isolated interactions.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel (49:29): "A well-lived life is the ability to reconcile our need for safety and security with our need for adventure and autonomy."
(49:29)

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Conclusion: Embracing the Erotic and Living Fully

In wrapping up, Perel shares her philosophy on living a fulfilling life, intertwining the necessity of safety and security with the desire for adventure and autonomy. She asserts that the "erotic" aspect of relationships—marked by curiosity, playfulness, and creativity—is essential for a vibrant and meaningful existence.

• Esther Perel (50:31-51:03): Defines a well-lived life as one that balances our fundamental needs and embraces the erotic to keep relationships alive and dynamic.
• Oprah Winfrey (50:48-51:03): Highlights the importance of viewing eroticism beyond just sexual activity, as a vital component of feeling alive and connected.

Notable Quotes:

Esther Perel (50:50): "A life well-lived is a life where you feel alive."
(50:50)

Oprah Winfrey (51:03): "That is why the importance of the erotic is so essential."
(51:03)

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Key Takeaways

1. Redefining Intimacy: Moving away from viewing sex as an act with an outcome to appreciating it as an ongoing, shared experience that fosters deeper connection.

2. Unrealistic Expectations: Understanding that expecting one person to fulfill all emotional and practical needs can strain relationships. It's essential to cultivate a broader support system.

3. Communication is Crucial: Effective communication addresses underlying issues of power, control, and unmet needs, preventing trivial conflicts from escalating.

4. Embracing Vulnerability: Allowing oneself to lean on a partner and embracing vulnerability can strengthen trust and deepen the relationship.

5. Balancing Needs: A fulfilling life involves balancing the need for safety and security with the desire for adventure and autonomy, with the erotic playing a pivotal role in maintaining vibrancy in relationships.

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Final Thoughts

"You Might Also Like: The Oprah Podcast" offers profound insights into the intricacies of modern relationships. Through candid conversations and personal stories, Oprah and Esther Perel illuminate the challenges couples face today and provide actionable advice to navigate them. The episode underscores the importance of evolving communication, redefining intimacy, and embracing vulnerability to foster healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Ulta Beauty. The possibilities are beautiful. It is a joy to be with you here on the Oprah Podcast and I know your time means a lot to you. So I think it's just so special for me that you all are listening or watching on YouTube. Lots of people have Valentine's Day on their minds this week, and I know that for some people that brings up thoughts of romance and lack of romance. But my guest is renowned, renowned as a relationship therapist and expert. She studies it, she knows it in her spirit, in her heart, in her brain. Esther Parel says all of our relationships with our family, with our friends, even our neighbors, have a real impact on our most intimate relationships. So welcome to the teahouse.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Relationships are changing rapidly. Modern romance is undergoing an extreme makeover.

Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and best selling author who's been counseling couples for over three decades.

You know, it's a little bit like sex. It used to be that you had to be ashamed if you had sex. Now you are ashamed if you don't.

I think her greatest gift is her intuitive insight into the human heart and mind. She really blows me away.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen?

[Jen]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

Her hit podcast, where Should We Begin? Is a must listen for anybody looking to better understand the complexities of relationships.

[Stephan]

One of the most challenging things about relationships and marriage in general has been communication.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, sexual candor is really difficult.

Esther sees beyond the stories we tell ourselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did you know that? You don't even know her.

[Esther Perel]

And she's here to offer her unflinching truths.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Say that again.

[Esther Perel]

Foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So, everybody, thanks for joining us on this podcast. I'm so happy you're one of the people who is speaking the truth to families and people in relationships. In a way, I think that resonates profoundly and is actually changing the way people see themselves in their lives and relationships. So power to you for doing that in the world.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. I try.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And may I tell you, I don't know how I discovered these cards. I actually don't even remember how, but I actually ordered these on Amazon for myself. I got them for myself and then I love them so much I sent them out to friends because this is what happens when people come for dinner or come over for an evening and not everybody knows everybody. What I found is that if you go through the cards and you pull out the cards, and you make sure that the sexy cards are not there, children are there. And then I have a thing where everybody pulls a card, and then I have them do another card and then another card. We do rounds of people pulling cards. So you have a whole stack of cards. So you don't just get one card. You get to choose from that card, the question that you want to answer. And we go around and around.

[Esther Perel]

And it is so storytelling nights.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's storytelling. It becomes storytelling, and it becomes an opportunity for people to express things and say things. I mean, I've learned things about my godchildren that I did not know. And so where should we begin? Which is. I know, based on your podcast, you've been doing that popular podcast for a few years now. Yes, yes. So. Which is just a perfect title. I love it. And so where.

[Esther Perel]

It's how I start many sessions. You know, it's like you sit with new people you've never met, and you just say, okay, where should we begin?

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I love this question. I just pulled these for us today. Something I wish I had been told as a child. What would that be for you? Something I wish I'd been told as a child.

[Esther Perel]

The first thing that just jumped into my head is this. My mother told me that I came from the stork. And what I wish I had been told as a child was that this was. There was no such a thing as a stork. As a stork. I was nine years old when I understood that this is not true. No. And that it says more about her discomfort with the subject.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Than anything else. Than anything else. And then I began to dig and try to find. So then where exactly did I come from? And when I told her, actually, I came from you, she said, we'll discuss this one day.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And did she ever.

[Esther Perel]

Never, never, never.

[Jen]

Oh.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That was the day where people were.

[Esther Perel]

So uncomfortable when people think. And you are a sexologist. And you must have had. No, no, no. I grew up in utter ignorance.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

I wish I had been told a lot of things in that domain.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Well, my answer to that, I would say, I wish I had been told that I was loved.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because I don't. I never, ever heard I love you or had the feeling of you. You are loved as a child. So I wish I'd been told.

[Esther Perel]

It's a very common answer.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is it?

[Esther Perel]

Yes. I wish I had been told I was loved. I am capable. I'm worthy of something. I miss you. I mean, many things that people want to Hear have to do with feeling, basically feeling seen, feeling acknowledged, feeling valued.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, I know so many people get so much out of your podcast. Why did you decide to do the podcast? And what was your hope and greatest intention for it?

[Esther Perel]

So I spent 35 years in my office seeing patients. I still do. And at one point, I started to wish that people would hear some of the powerful insights that occur in the conversations in my office. And not that many people can actually enter the kind of healing that takes place. And I just thought, I have to open the door to this office so that people can hear. Not everything takes place in a therapy office. How do I bring those stories to the world at large? How do I create what has become a public health campaign for relationships worldwide? And that was my invitation is first, I open the doors and I come to you. But then I want you to actually become a fly on the wall and. And listen in to the raw, intimate, anonymous conversations of others. And you will see yourself. If you listen intensely to others, you see yourself. Even if it's not your exact.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. Even if it's not your story, you can see yourself in the other story. So I hear that you now think that modern romance is going through some kind of change or makeover. What's going on out there? What's changed?

[Esther Perel]

So one of the things that changes is that we are today looking for a soulmate on an app. And the soulmate is the one and only, which basically has always meant God, and now it's your partner. And with this partner, you want to experience transcendence and wholeness and ecstasy and meaning. All the things that you actually used to look for in the realm of the divine, and now you want that with your partner. So people say, well, are we asking for too much? And I say, no, we don't. We can have a number of enormous expectations, but we are asking one person to give us what once an entire village used to provide. I want with you what everything traditional relationships are about. Companionship, economic support, family life, social status. But now I also want you to be my best friend and my trusted confidant and my intellectual equal and my fitness buddy and my professional coach, and last but not least, my passionate lover. And all of this for the long haul. And this long haul keeps on getting longer, right? And then we have taken love, commitment, intimacy away from our relationships with family, with friends, with neighbors. All these other relationships are weakening, and all of this is being brought into modern love. So modern intimacy today is me talking to you. You're validating me. You're reflecting on me. And I am momentarily going to transcend my existential aloneness and modern intimacy becomes into me, see?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, into me, see?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's where we are.

[Esther Perel]

That's modern romance, as I begin to say.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But when you were saying that, I remember early on in my relationship with Stedman, Maya Angelou, my advisor and friend, wise woman, was saying, do not. Your life is a whole pie. Your life is made up of a whole pie. Much of what you were just saying about a village. And so do not expect one person to represent everything that the pie is supposed to represent.

[Esther Perel]

Totally agree.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So is it is. So, based upon what you just said, everybody expects your partner now to really be what the realm of the divine used to be in people's lives. Isn't that too much?

[Esther Perel]

I think it is. I think we cannot have one person give us what a whole community should represent.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I think that we are actually overburdening our relationships, and then we get very disillusioned, and then we find someone.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you don't fulfill all of those things. I'm gonna eliminate you from my life because you are not perfect.

[Esther Perel]

And I'll find someone else who I think can actually meet all my needs.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then that person's not gonna be able to do it either. So what is your advice to someone who's listening, who may be feeling alone right now, especially this week? People get so hung up on what the Valentine experience means or doesn't mean. And I don't have, and I didn't get, and I wasn't acknowledged.

[Esther Perel]

And I think to actually continue directly from what we just said, love, intimacy, being valued, being cherished. Don't just imagine that it takes place in your romantic relationship. So Valentine us all. Make it about love. And it's the love that you share with all the people of your life. If you don't have a partner at this time, that doesn't mean you're excluded from the event.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Esther Perel]

And then how do you feel less lonely in general? We feel less lonely when we connect with others, and we feel that we are able to bring a smile to their face. And suddenly we realize that we matter and that something is happening. Yesterday I was literally thinking about these questions, and I'm walking here in Santa Barbara by the beach, and as I'm thinking this, a woman stops me, and she says, can you help me come down the steps? And so I help her walk down. She said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I said, no, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I just feel like I was able to do something for someone. And when I left, she had a smile, I had a smile, and we momentarily felt less lonely. And that happens in small, incremental things. You know, what happens today is modern loneliness masks us. Hyperconnectivity. I mean, you can have a thousand virtual friends and no one to feed your cat.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love that. You can have a thousand friends on social media and no one to feed.

[Esther Perel]

Your cat, let alone pick up a prescription at a pharmacy, let alone pick you up at the airport. Let alone. So many things. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, but they give you a parasocial relationship with a little, like. And it leaves you, you know, not really feeling fit. You're gonna rich.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You end up feeling emptier. Yeah, Emptier. And you teach a course on turning conflict into connection.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I've always wanted to know, why is it. Does it seem that couples fight over and over about the same thing?

[Esther Perel]

Because they're actually fighting. Not about certain things, but they're fighting for certain things. If you think you're fighting about, then you think that you're arguing about, you know, why did you put the straw in this glass? You know? And now we're going to have a whole argument about the straw.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not about the straw.

[Esther Perel]

No. What people typically fight for, I think, can be summarized in three basic things. It's based on the work of Howard Markman. But people fight over power and control. Whose decisions matter more? Who has the priorities? You know, you hear it in sentences on the podcast all the time. People say, you know, you don't value my contributions with the children. You constantly undermine me. We are doing everything on your terms. We have sex when you want. We live where you want. We travel where you want. You're the boss.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Power and control. People fight for closeness and care, trust. Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? Can I lean on you? And what we hear is, you know, I open myself, I share my anxiety, and instead of supporting me, you fly it back in my face.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, that you're not my soft place to fall.

[Esther Perel]

No. And when your mother says things about me, instead of protecting me, you ally with her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. That kind of stuff. And people fight for respect and recognition, Meaning, do you value me? You know, is my contribution recognized? Do I matter? And that is, you know, sentences like, I do so much, and I don't think you ever value me. When you want to go see people, you just go, you know, without even checking in with me. Like, you're unilaterally making your choices. And ultimately, you know, I had a thing in a podcast episode where they come in and they start to argue because he left the closet door open.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

And the cat could enter into the closet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And now follows a whole fight about the cat closet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did the cat enter the closet? Or could.

[Esther Perel]

No, I couldn't care less. I don't listen to the story. You know, all I hear is, now we are talking. They're talking about the closet, the door, the cat litter, the cat. And all I am thinking is, what is it that they're really fighting about? What is he saying? He's saying, you're not the boss of me. Then you're not the boss of me. Means, you know, he had a very dominant father who told constantly, and so that's what he's fighting for. He's fighting about the closet, but he's fighting for power and control.

Time for a break, y'all. Up next, Astaire's critical advice for busy couples looking to get that spark back in the bedroom. I know. That's so common. So you don't want to miss what she says. We'll be back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's that time of year when we celebrate love. Not just romantic love, but also the special connections we share with our best friends. And what I know for sure is that real friendships bring joy to your life. So now our friends at Ulta Beauty want to help you honor your bestie in a big way.

[Esther Perel]

Listen to this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let's start a ripple effect of joy Together post about your bestie. Tag them and Alta Beauty share why they're so special to you. And when you do, Ulta is going to pay the joy forward with a chance to receive a surprise and delight Ulta Beauty experience. The possibilities are beautiful.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you for taking the time to be with me here. We're back with Esther Perel, host of the hugely popular Where Should We Begin? Podcast. We're talking about love and relationships of all kinds. Let's get back to it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We have guests who are joining us on Zoom that I think a lot of you are gonna relate to. So let's jump in. Christina and Stephan are in Atlanta, and I hear that you two are very much in love, and you're raising three beautiful boys. Four, six, and nearly eight. Okay, where should we begin? What's going on? Hi, guys. Hey.

[Stephan]

How are you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi.

[Stephan]

Yeah, so. So things are incredible with us. I love my wife. We've been married nearly 10 years. It'll be 10 years in April, she's my best friend, as you mentioned, we're raising three amazing boys. We're in ministry together, so we're in the process of planting a church. So we do a lot of stuff together. And in our first year of marriage, we're talking about intimacy. So first year of marriage, when it comes to the frequency of it, it was very high. Going into year 10 is still very good. But when you look at all the things that we're doing, the energy that we're exerting, all of the things that we're doing, and one of our kids has autism, so that. That's a lot on her as well. I'm trying to figure out how to make sure she has a lot more in the tank when it comes down to time with. With me, because the boys take a lot. Right. At the end of the day, she's ready to park. I'm ready to go. Full speed, fast.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Stephan]

So that's. That's where we are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you got the best expert here to help you.

[Esther Perel]

And your question is, how do I get her to want more?

[Stephan]

Yeah. So, you know, I'm able to compartmentalize the work that we have to do during the day, and I can have some left in the reserve when we get to the end of the day. For her, she's a lot more exhausted. And I get it. There's more of an emotional toll on her being a mom, and the boys are pulling on her more so than me. But I want her to be able to compartmentalize like I can.

[Esther Perel]

Are you prepared to change tracks?

[Stephan]

Am I prepared to change dresses? Yes, I'm prepared to do whatever I need to do.

[Esther Perel]

Wonderful. Beautiful. Can I hear from you just a bit?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Christian?

[Christina]

Yeah. So, like he said, I am tired. Come 8 o'clock, I'm ready to tap out and retire. But I try to explain to him there's a biological connection I have with the children. I'm a light sleeper, so any little breath, it feels like I wake up. So I feel like I'm not getting adequate sleep, although, you know, I fall asleep early. But it's like I'm trying to explain to him the different ways that men and women approach sex. Like, he can go, and I need, like a. I need time to build it. And I love him and I'm attracted to him. That's. That's not the thing. But I'm very much aware our marriage is a movement. I really value that. So.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, maybe we first switch a little bit the way we think here. Right. And that is very Often when we think about sex, we think about an act and an outcome, something that we do. And instead of thinking of it like that, I would probably want to switch you to think more about an experience. Not what do you do in sex, but where do you go in sex, what parts of yourselves do you connect with? What do you want to experience there, what do you want to express there? And then you will notice that for some people, desire is autonomous. As you say, I come, I'm ready. Spontaneous erection, autonomous. I don't need any prep, I'm go. You know, the majority of other people are responsive. What we call responsive desire, meaning they don't come ready. They are maybe sometimes open or willing. That willingness, you know, I'm not always hungry. I see you eating, I'm sitting next to you. It looks like it's quite good. I taste, I'm open, I'm curious. I want to see where this takes me. Slowly. I find myself, I take out a plate, I'm actually eating a whole meal. I wasn't really hungry to begin with and I could have done without, but I'm happy I did it, you know, that switch for you. Instead of thinking, how do I get her to also be able to compartmentalize and be ready? I'm sorry to say it may not work and she's going to get frustrated. Rather than your understanding that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm, it's not a five minute before the real thing. And you give and you say that again. Foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm, not just, you know, five minutes before you get going.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

So instead of thinking you are the norm and she's the problem, how do I get her to change? You understand that for a lot of people it's willingness that gets us going. And that is a wonderful thing. I'm open, I'm willing to see. And then here's the piece. A lot of relationships, male, female relationships, you're going to tell me. Probably nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on. Yeah, yeah, love it. Now it is most likely that she will say, whatever happens to him is kind of irrelevant to me. Because what gets me going is what happens to her, not what happens to you. And that means that she needs to be able to enter into her own erotic self. And that means that she needs to be able to let go of the role of mother. Caretaking, responsible, making sure that everybody's fine, worrying about the well being of others. That is the essential liberation that any woman needs to feel. Especially when I hear what Cristina just said about that biological instant response that she has to the kids. It's how do I allow that to recede? And I trust that everybody's fine so that I can finally enter into myself and give myself the permission to think about me and experience my own pleasure. Give her the permission to be slightly more selfish in the moment. Because desire is that attention onto me that says I deserve, I can be, I can enjoy. And everything there is fine. And that's how I can let go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love what you said about where do you want to go? And I saw. I saw something in your eyes. Where do you want to go? And what do you want to experience in this sexual encounter that it's not just about the actual. Did that resonate with you, Christina?

[Christina]

Tremendously, because my first orgasm was with my husband.

[Stephan]

Hey.

[Christina]

And I have to get there mentally. I'm being honest. Everything before him was performative, you know, And I like that, as Stairs said, to make it an experience again. Like, remember, it's something that we share, that nothing, no one else, you know, something supernatural happens. And I feel it when we're there. But initially it's. I feel like it's a chore to get there. But if I can train my mind to think, where do I want to go with him right now? This is our secret place. And train myself there. I feel like I can like anything, work a muscle again, you know, and tap into the erotic side.

[Esther Perel]

But you need to be willing to ask for things. What starts to happen when you're in that kind of a dance is that he says yea, you say nay. And your emphasis is on all the nays. And his emphasis is on all the yeas. So it's about you asking, do I want to just relax? Do I want something more sensual? Do I want us to be naughty? Do I want to just have fun? Do I want to connect? Do I want to just be taken care of? All of these are places that we go in the erotic that have, you know, as you just said, you can do a lot in sex and feel absolutely nothing. Women have done that for centuries. You know, in the erotic, you can do very little and feel a lot, but for that, you need to ask for certain things and know that you have someone who really appreciates it and welcomes it. Because then, you know, he likes to give, he likes to make you feel good. And even if it's just, you know, small little things, it's about pleasure, not about performance or outcome.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This makes sense.

[Stephan]

It does. And what's Interesting is one of the most challenging things about relationships and marriage in general has been communication.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, sexual candor is really difficult. You know, and here's the thing. The majority of people often fall in a trap where they think that they will want more sex from talking about all the sex they don't want. Okay, you got it?

Yeah.

You know, it's like we talk about the problem, we talk about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's why women are reluctant. Like, if we have a conversation about it, we're going to talk about it. It's going to make you want more of it. And I'm just trying to have a conversation about it. That's what you're saying, Christina? Yes, yes, yes.

[Christina]

I just want to cuddle. And it's going to spark some. Let me go to sleep.

[Stephan]

Cuddle leads to other things.

[Christina]

Fall asleep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm just tired.

[Stephan]

But it's hard to just. It's hard to just cuddle. I try to explain that to her because I want her morning, noon, night, from dusk till dawn. And if she's like, let's just cuddle, There are things that happen to me biologically as a man that just don't allow me to sit there and cuddle.

[Barbara]

Okay.

[Stephan]

So, you know, you know, maybe if I communicate that better, like what actually happens in those moments when you want to cuddle and things are happening that can lead to pain. I, you know, we could again communicate better in those ways. That way she doesn't feel rejected when she says, can we cuddle? And I say, no, I actually need to go watch tv. It's not to distance her, is to, you know, protect my. My well being in that moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because, you know, cuddling is going to lead you to something else. But a lot of women feel this. A lot of women say this all the. I just wanted to cuddle. And you're reluctant to even initiate cuddling because you know it's going to lead to another whole thing.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, but you can turn that whole thing. You see what happens is that then you start to say, I don't even want to cuddle. Because then he's going to get turned on. He's going to get turned on, he's going to want more, he's going to want more. I'm going to frustrate him. He's going to get up, he's going to be all upset, he's going to pout, et cetera. Yeah, but so turn it around. You know, it's nice that you want her, but it's also a burden sometimes for her to Feel that she constantly is your one outlet with whom you need that basically in the end she's doing it for you to take care of you. That's not what sex is supposed to be. So on occasion that is. But not when it becomes. I just want to make sure he doesn't get upset. I want, you know, then the next day he's in a bad mood because he's. That whole thing. It's nice for you to say to him, I like the reaction that you have. Maybe sometimes you take care of him, maybe sometimes you take care of yourself. And you do it not in hiding, you do it next to her because it's okay. And then sometimes as she watches you, she may join you. There's a lot of possibilities if you don't fall into the trap of on or off and afraid to do the slightest move because my God, if he then reacts, then I'm going to have to service. That's the. Under the subtext from this dynamic that you, that you describe, you know, and then on occasion when you just call him and you, whatever it is, you take a bath together, shower together, you know, something where he experiences your invitation. But the pressure is what you want to watch because you're a high energy guy and you release a lot sexually and there's nothing wrong with it. But you also have three other boys in this house. And so yes, it's very different from 10 years ago. And it may come back after the boys are older as well. This is, you know, so how do you give yourself the permission to say, mom, time is off. I take off my apron, I take some time, I transition, I retrieve the woman from behind the mother. But it doesn't have to be the full operation each time. It doesn't have to be the whole production because otherwise you are going to get her shutting down just because she's afraid that you're going to want the whole thing. And that is where the women start to really deprive themselves as well. That's the other thing. It's like it deprives because she enjoys being with you. That is not the point. You enjoy being together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You desire her and she desires you.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I hope this has been helpful. Some things to talk about, think about. Thank you. Best microphones yet. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Next up is Jen, a married mom from Philadelphia. Jen wrote to us about what she called her past baggage. How is that impacting you? What did you want to say to Hello, Jen.

[Jen]

My story is a little bit different than the last brave couple. Although it certainly resonates, I think, as moms and married people. And I had written about past baggage, which I'm not sure really is relevant to where I am. But I had been through some sexual trauma as a child and through my teenage years, and I'd say in my 20s, probably spiraled a bit and had some commitment issues in my 20s and 30s. And so my story is I got married a little bit later in life, and I was a single mom. And recently I made a decision to leave a corporate job. And so I'm feeling very unsettled and unbalanced in my relationship. I guess it's kind of a long way to get there.

[Esther Perel]

And your question is.

[Jen]

The question really, Esther, is how to feel empowered in your relationship or feel when. When you're feeling unbalanced. You know, I was fiercely independent, and I was a single mom taking care of things. And now I have made a decision that I'm going to take a year of a pause, and it's changed the dynamic in my relationship.

[Esther Perel]

And you feel the vulnerability of the change of the balance. You feel that you are more reliant or dependent on your partner, and that is not the way that you've usually liked it because you've always made sure that you can stand on your own two feet.

[Jen]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And is that fear reinforced by him, or it's really something that you bring with you?

[Jen]

No, I think it's something that I bring. I think actually what you said in the beginning about feeling valued, and I do feel that, and I'm lucky that I think I waited so long to get married, because I finally found the right person who I think really, truly doesn't keep score. So it's purely in my head as somebody who has been very independent and trying to figure out how to.

[Esther Perel]

So this already is a big starting point, is your ability to say, look, from whatever happened to me in my life, I decided that nobody would ever have any power over me, that I was going to be in control. Nobody could take advantage. I can take care of myself. I don't depend on anybody beyond a certain level. And I have done this well. And then what happens when you leave work as that position, which was one of the symbols of your independence and all of that, is that you are in transition. And transition is by definition, not no longer here and not yet there. That's what transition means. So in transition, you are off balance. It is the nature of that change to be off balance. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just unknown to you, Unfamiliar and Here is your opportunity. You have a great guy that you know is valuing you that is not going to take advantage of what you call feeling a little bit more precarious, more unbalanced, more unsure of myself. And all of this is your opportunity to really do some repair from the dowry of your childhood and to actually allow yourself to lean on someone and to know that you can and to have someone show up for you. So instead of, how do I empower myself, I would actually invite you to say, how do I allow myself for the first time ever, to take advantage of this big transition and lean on someone and learn and experience the depth of trust, something I've yearned for my whole life and have never allowed myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen?

[Jen]

Absolutely. I heard that. Received it for sure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, my God, that was so good.

[Esther Perel]

Where does it land for you? Just because I don't know you. So I just took a leap.

[Jen]

It's very. It's truthful, for sure. And it has been hard for me to lean on someone because I haven't ever done that before. And so. And I'm. I feel like this is a gift of this transition that I'm able to take. And I'm trying to be open to the universe and all possibilities that come in front of me, like getting the opportunity to speak to both of you. And so I do need to receive it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought that was really powerful. How did you know that? You don't even know her.

[Esther Perel]

No, I don't. Because you said, I left a big job. I have always been independent. And you kind of said and implied was, how do I continue to feel as strong as I always did? And I thought, but this is not about staying strong. And then she said, I have a good guy. I waited and I have a good guy. And I thought, you haven't even given him the opportunity to show you how good he can be. And what would it be like for you instead of holding yourself up, to actually leaning on him and experiencing. I mean, you're going to sob. Maybe it's going to bring back this little girl who fought, you know, to make sure that she's in charge and nobody takes advantage.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you're holding onto that, still protecting yourself? Yes.

[Jen]

I think probably my whole life, even though I've done therapy in my 20s and 30s, and I think I've gotten through it, which is why I can talk about it so openly, but I'm sure it's still there's still that little girl in there who wants to take charge, I'm sure.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And it goes actually with what we talked before when you said, what is it that people fight for when they are in conflict?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

The people who fight for power and control are often people who did experience various forms of emotional, psychological or sexual abuse. Because then it is your adaptive style. You respond with the strategy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's how you stay in control. That's right. That's how you stay in control. That resonated with me.

[Jen]

I think the comfort now of feeling safe is getting the strength to be vulnerable.

[Esther Perel]

It's a gift for your life. It's the gift you've been waiting for, that therapy could only offer partially and that it looks like your partner may be able to offer you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And now you're the one who brought up the universe. And so the universe has put you in this position. So you can do exactly what Esther was just saying. You can lean back into it. You can lean into him and you can allow. I love those two terms that you used for her, lean and allow.

[Esther Perel]

They're very expensive, by the way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Scary at first, but very expensive.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Jen, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And for matching the walls in the house, for wearing the blouse that matches the chair that matches the wall. I mean, really, the decor is perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

[Jen]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Erica from Texas has been married for 32 years. She has three. Three adult children. And now she's starting to have some doubts. Are you about your marriage? Tell us why.

[Esther Perel]

Hello, Erica.

[Erica]

Oh, my goodness. Hello, Esther. Hello, Oprah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi.

[Erica]

Thank you all so much for this opportunity. It truly is an honor of mine. Well, like I said, I've been married 32 years. I have three adult grown children. My husband was retired military. He retired about 10 years ago. We have spent a lot of time together. We do a lot of things together. And then about eight years ago, my mom suddenly took you. And it was just when my husband retired and we were looking forward to moving away, enjoying our lives. And it's just been a lot. And I looked forward to these days. I look forward to being an empty nester. We have two adult girls who are now back in the home. I still have to check on my mom and see about her. I just got up a call from the caregivers a few minutes ago.

[Esther Perel]

What would you like? What would you like? I almost, instead of saying what is your question? I would like to ask what is your wish?

[Erica]

What is my wish for myself?

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Yeah. Because you carry a lot. You've been dutiful, loyal, responsible. And as you speak, I experience your ache for play, for fun, for aliveness, for exploration, for creativity, for things that are the opposite of. I'm taking care of my mom, My three children, my husband are busy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm enjoying it. I'm the only daughter. I'm the child. It's, you know, my responsibility, my duty. And you know what's so interesting when you watch this? Makes me want to tear up. When she asks you, what was your wish? What happened to your face? And what makes me want to tear up is I know nobody's asked you that. Nobody's asked you that. What do you really want?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Erica]

I don't know how you knew that, but that's exactly what I said in your eyes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I saw it. I saw it in your eyes, and I know Esther saw it in your eyes. By side. Yeah. You were like. Cause you said, me what?

[Esther Perel]

For myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For myself. Because nobody's asked you that. And you haven't asked you that. You haven't asked you that.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. You're so organized around what do they need from you? And you so just hope that they would stop asking, but you need to ask yourself a different question. And that is really. You've done it all. You know, if you worry about being the good daughter and the good mother and the good spouse, you got your A. Because otherwise, you know, sometimes we don't have another way that when we feel entrapped like that, sometimes we get sick just as a way of saying, I'm off duty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Don't ask me anything. I can't get up. You know, and sometimes we just think, okay, I leave the marriage. And then sometimes, you know, it's really. What would be even the smallest thing today that would connect you with your aliveness, with your joy, with your freedom. Small. What would it be?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have a thought about what? That thought. Have you even thought about that?

[Erica]

I love to travel. I want to travel the world. I love walking on the beach. We took a vacation to Mexico, and I just loved walking on the beach yesterday. Being with nature, just getting out. And we don't get to do that that often.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, forget the we. Forget the we.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Forget the we.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, forget the we. You know, you start. You have to go with a girlfriend, Go with somebody else, go with one of your children. If. No, but it's not. Don't make it contingent. You see, you kind of. When people take care of as much as you do, the fantasy is that One day everybody will be set. Everybody will be taken care of, and then I can go do my walk on the beach.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, not going to happen.

[Esther Perel]

You're going to go do your walk on the beach because that's what's going to help you to continue to make sure that everybody is set. Otherwise you're going to collapse. So what do I wish for myself? What's one thing I could do that I would enjoy? You know, how do I give myself pleasure?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I could see you get that, Erika. I could see you get that. So let's start there.

[Esther Perel]

You know what happens once you start this thing? It's irresistible.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Once you really claim and you don't feel that guilty and you don't want to constantly look back to make sure everybody's okay, and you begin to ask yourself, am I okay? Not in a selfish way, because it's amazing how the biggest givers are the ones who worry about being selfish.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. I can see that landed.

[Erica]

Yes. Yes, it did.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Erica, so much.

[Esther Perel]

After this break, a stair shares the one thing you can do today to feel more alive in all of your relationships. Don't you want to know what that is? Stay with us.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Our friends at Ulta Beauty want to help you honor your bestie in a big way. Share why they're so special in a post. Tag your bestie. And at Ulta Beauty on Alta is gonna pay the joy forward with a chance to receive a surprise and delight beauty experience.

[Esther Perel]

I so appreciate you taking the time to join us on the OPRAH podcast. We're back with more profound truths about love and relationships from Esther Perel.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Barbara was married for 20 years to a man she describes as emotionally abusive. Can you tell us briefly what happened? Hi, Barb.

[Esther Perel]

Hello.

[Barbara]

Hello, Esther And Oprah, it is an honor to listen to you and be part of this. So, yes, I married for 20 years, two beautiful boys. We met actually in law school. And I don't think I realized that I was in a relationship that was about power and control. I didn't fully appreciate that until things started going not well, probably the second half of our marriage. And then in therapy learned that I was very accustomed to power and control dynamics.

[Esther Perel]

You are no longer with your husband. Right. And if I understand what you may be grappling with is it took me a while to see a lot of things. Yes, the relationship ended, whatever the reasons that precipitated it. And so what often follows from a relationship like this is questions of trust. Yeah. There are betrayals. And then one wonders, how will I trust again? Is that. Is that part of what.

[Barbara]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Barbara]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

It's.

[Barbara]

It's. I'm. I'm scared of. About my ability to know what I can trust.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Barbara]

Because I've always trusted my instincts, and my instincts have always served me well. But when this happens in such a long relationship, you do question, what did I know, what didn't I know? And was there an affair involved with me?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was there an affair?

[Barbara]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. Okay. I think that you're highlighting something that is so important because betrayal creates a question of trust. Can I trust people? But it also puts into question, can I trust myself? How do I trust that my perception of reality is accurate? When all these things took place that I had no idea about, that happened behind my back, and I thought, I know what the hell is going on. And then I found out I was clueless. And I think that what happens when we start to meet new people, sometimes we would like to know that we can trust them before we start. But trust is, by definition, a leap of faith. I mean, trust is an active engagement with the unknown. So it's iterative. It's small little steps. You learn to trust by taking a risk and watching the response. Taking a risk and watching the response. But if it involves new dating, then I think one of the things that help a lot with trust is that there's something very weird that's happening around dating these days, that we are dating totally away from our lives, secluded from our lives, you know, on an app, in a dark bar. And then when all of this trust has been established, so to speak, then we do the big reveal, and we bring this person to our friends and our family. Which is strange, because the way you get to know a person is by watching them in interaction with other people. So you're going to. That kind of dating that is happening away from your life may not be the best model for you. You bring that person into your life, into your interactions, your friendships, and then you watch, and then you let other people give you data points. And look, if your instincts have served you well for a long time and you made a mistake with this person, then the ratio is quite good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Quite good.

[Barbara]

That's heartening to hear. And what you say, Esther, is the dating apps have just. It's not a fit for my personality because I'm wired to be live and in person, right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Do things with people. You're gonna go whatever, bike, hike to a movie, listen to live music, invite that person to Join you just hang. And then you'll feel, and then you'll, you'll have a better sense and you'll know even if you want to see them another time. And you'll hear what other people say. And it's much more integrated into your life than in this kind of sterile thing called, you know, the dating space.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Barbara. Thank you.

[Barbara]

Thank you so much to both of you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you very much.

[Esther Perel]

Appreciate it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

One of your most well known quotes I like so much is this one. That the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. Yes. When did you know this to be true?

[Esther Perel]

I think I completely grew up with that perspective because my parents, both of them had lost their entire families in the Holocaust and they were both the sole survivors of their entire family. And really they had nothing. I have nothing. Nothing, nothing, nobody, nothing. And they created families of choice before the world existed. They understood the rebuilding of community. They understood that you get your memory from meeting people who have experienced something like you. When your entire community is decimated, there's not a trace left of the life that existed. You need to share it through stories with other people. And so in multiple fashions, they created rituals, gatherings, people, people was the way that you rebuild life more than anything else. And that wasn't spoken. But there were people in my house all the time and I would hear the conversations and I understood that you do not survive alone. They didn't survive alone and they didn't revive and rebuild alone. You need people. We need intimacy and connection to survive from the moment we are born. And that's part of why your question about modern loneliness is so powerful. Because at this point we're not only lonely, we are also experiencing self imposed solitude. You don't have to leave your house to eat, to work, to shop, to, to exercise, to meet people. So you're not just having remote work, you have a complete form of remote living. And that disconnect affects how we feel about life while we wake up in the morning and our level of happiness and our level of joy and contentment and all of these things are interconnected. So people and the quality of your relationship, it's not just relationships. They have to be nurturing, good, thriving relationships determines the quality of your life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, you've counseled so many thousands of people throughout the world and heard their stories and challenges in relationships. And I'm wondering what you have concluded is the basis for a well lived life.

[Esther Perel]

A well lived life is a. Is a life where you are able to experience the two most important sets of human needs, our need for safety and security and our need for adventure, our need for togetherness and our need for autonomy. The good life is the ability to reconcile these two fundamental sets of human needs inside of you and hopefully inside of your relationships. A good lived life is a life that is erotic. That means it's not only useful and meaningful, but it is also alive. You know, everybody knows the difference between a relationship that is not dead and a relationship that is alive. That difference is the erotic. And the erotic means curiosity, imagination, playfulness, creativity, exploration, the embracing of serendipity and the unknown. And you can be in your 90s when you meet these people. And they're still.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why I thought the advice that you were giving to Christina and Stephane and to her, particularly about her own arousal and eroticism was so poignant because I think for so many people, they think eroticism is only about sex.

[Esther Perel]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So not so not.

[Esther Perel]

So not so not. You know, that is the. A life well lived is a life where you feel alive. That is why the importance of the erotic is so essential.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that. I love that you're able to do that for people. I so appreciate that you were able to come here to be a part. Pleasure of the Oprah Podcast. Estaire's podcast is called Where Should We Begin and Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories is available on her website, estairparel.com so thank you to my guests, all of you, for asking your thoughtful questions. To Erica and Jen and Christina and Stephan and Barbara, thank you all. A very special thanks to our friends at Ulta Beauty for sponsoring today's episode. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.