Cindy Wagman (4:18)

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Rob Harder (4:20)

Well, we're going to talk all about fractional leadership, among other things, but that's kind of the specialty that you really have focused your at least the last few years on. And you've got quite a following when it comes to this whole concept of fractional executives. So let's just jump right into this issue because I know post Covid, I feel like I'm hearing about this more and more where people are getting fractional executives hiring consultants. Right. And just changing the paradigm of how they fill their spots for various nonprofit roles. So what is a fractional executive and then how does a role of a fractional executive difference in the nonprofit sector say compared to other sectors.

Cindy Wagman (4:59)

Great question. So I think it might be helpful to start with a little bit of how I got to this, because I think it explains the model quite well. So I've always been a fundraiser. I'm probably almost 25 years now in the sector. And when I started consulting in 2015, I knew the one thing I wanted to do was to work with small organizations. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna. I took a contract running a capital campaign, which technically probably at the time was considered fractional work, but no one was using that term then. But that was like my sort of big client, or call it like an anchor client. I was working for them. It was a two year contract, about three days a week. And then I started doing what I thought consultants do, which is I started creating fundraising plans for small organizations, helping them hire staff. I was coaching executive directors on fundraising and all those things were missing something. So when I was doing a fundraising plan, I'd hand it over. It was a great plan, but these small organizations had no implementation capacity. Okay. So there was no one there to do that to actually do the work. When I would hire someone, they wouldn't last because the budget meant that they had. They could only afford someone junior. And that junior person, at the time, I was focused on fundraising. So the junior fundraiser was in this organization where no one around them knew how to fundraise. So they had no guidance or leadership. And quite the opposite. Oftentimes boards tell you all the wrong things and you end up spending a lot of time on things that doesn't. That don't work. And so I saw this cycle where the person would leave and then the organization would be wary of hiring again. And so they'd lose all this momentum or with coaching again. I work with some amazing executive directors and I'd say, okay, do this, do that, let's talk about this. And two weeks later, when I would meet with them again, they would have made zero progress.

Dr. Rob Harder (7:11)

Oh, wow.

Cindy Wagman (7:12)

So I was like, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel like the right fit for these small organizations. They need hands on support. And the traditional model of staffing within their budgets wasn't working. So at the time, around 2017, I said to my sort of self, I guess I had a very small team, I think of like fundraising interns in my business. And I said, what if we tried to do the work and we called it done for you fundraising. And so we said, okay, let's try. I'm gonna provide the strategic oversight. And I. My team is gonna do the day to day implementation. And let's see how that goes. It went gangbusters. Like organizations loved it. We were seeing really great success and it took off. So that's how I kind of got into this. And I think it's frames the problem that fractional is there to solve.

Dr. Rob Harder (8:15)

Right.

Cindy Wagman (8:16)

Which is for organizations that have some budget. Right. They're looking at hiring, but they're small enough that traditional staffing models end up being more like a burden than a help. And the executive director needs someone who can straddle the sort of extremes of being really strategic and really hands on.

Dr. Rob Harder (8:41)

Right. Trying to find that middle ground sounds like of we need to be able to not just provide the strategy, but actually the boots on the ground to get it done.

Cindy Wagman (8:49)

Exactly. And so that's essentially what fractional is. And as the name suggests, you get a fraction of that person's time. So if you are a small organization, it allows you to hire someone or to bring someone in who's much more experienced than you would traditionally get. And because of that experience, they're better at their work and they're more efficient. Right. And you can still afford them. So, and the best part is like, you don't have to manage them. They're there to do the work, so you don't have to think about doing the work.

Dr. Rob Harder (9:24)

Right. Okay, well, what types of nonprofit organizations do you feel like are most set up for this fractional executive opportunity?

Cindy Wagman (9:32)

So I'd say like small, ish and growing.

Dr. Rob Harder (9:36)

So if you, for my listeners, define what you would.

Cindy Wagman (9:41)

If you are an organization that you're like, you have no staff at all and you can't afford any staff, like probably start with an in house ed or something like that. Right. Usually I'd say these are organizations that have a function that's grown enough that they can justify staffing. So my background is in fundraising, but now I teach all kinds of fractionals. And so if you are looking at fractional hr, like you kind of, it's grown big enough that it doesn't fit on the side of your desk anymore.

Dr. Rob Harder (10:20)

Right?

Cindy Wagman (10:20)

Right. So you, you need help, you're starting to budget for help, but you're feeling disillusioned with the options that are available at your budget. So sometimes it will also work for organizations where they have more junior people. Like a small team that's lacking strategic leadership. You can bring someone in to kind of oversee. But traditionally fractionals are not managing big teams. Right. They're kind of working with smaller groups. So those are the two Scenarios that I know work really well for Fractional. If you're a big organization. I'm sorry, it's really not designed for that. Fractional, I like to think of as a bit of a ladder to get the organization leveling up so that eventually they can hire someone senior in house to do the work full time.

Dr. Rob Harder (11:12)

Yeah, got it. No, that makes sense. And I think by, based on statistics, most nonprofits are small. Right. And so most nonprofits can really benefit from something like this because they're considered small. Maybe you could go into what are the key indicators that suggest a nonprofit organization is really ready to benefit from, from a fractional executive? What are those key indicators that you found?

Cindy Wagman (11:33)

Yeah, so again, they have a function that they need someone to do. Right. So fundraising. And they're not starting from scratch from that, with that function. So operations like, we have a few systems, we have a few things in place, but it's getting. We're adding new tools and we, like, there's no rhyme or reason to it. Or we have, like, I always call it, like, shadow systems. So let's say we use Microsoft Office, but half our team is using Google Docs. Like, when you are big enough that, like, you have this function in your organization that's been there off the side of your desk, and it just, like I said, it kind of doesn't fit there anymore. It's too big for that. That's the first key indicator. If you're just like, I don't think a fractional. In some situations, you could use a fractional from the start. But let's be honest, like in the nonprofit sector, most organizations are not, starting from the very beginning saying, we're going to bring in the professional to do this. No, you're like, I wear a million hats and I'm going to figure all the things out. So that's the first thing. And the other key indicator, I would say, is that the executive director wants someone who has expertise that they don't have. So most EDs in my experience come from the programming side of the work. Not all, but a lot of them do. And so they're really knowledgeable and experts on their area of expertise, like on that.

Dr. Rob Harder (13:19)

But.

Cindy Wagman (13:19)

But they don't know HR or they don't know finance, or they don't know fundraising. And so you're not looking to have someone you can just delegate to. Like, if you're an ED who also happens to be like a fundraiser, you can probably supervise a junior fundraiser. But if you don't know fundraising, you can't It's a bit of a disaster. So if you're looking for someone who brings the expertise that you maybe don't have from your own experience. So I'd say that's the other thing. Like you're not looking for someone to just delegate to, you're looking for someone who can be a leader that's helpful.

Dr. Rob Harder (14:00)

And when it comes to organizations that aren't ready or just not a good fit for a fractional executive role, what were those indicators or what? Typically, what kind of organization would not be a good fit for this?

Cindy Wagman (14:12)

So again, like super small, I'd say we all know, like, do what you can with what you got, but fractional is a commitment, it's a long term strategy. And that doesn't always work for really small organizations. I would say again, like, if you feel like you can, you, you're looking for someone to just delegate to find someone junior who you can train if you have the budget, listen, if you have the budget to hire a senior in house person for the function and it makes sense for your organization, please do that and please pay your people well. I think we all want the sector to do a better job of creating better in house environments for everyone. And I think that like, if you want someone on location, if you want someone who's coming into the office on a regular basis, some workplace cultures are more aligned to that or you know, if the rest of the team is there in person, you know, you might feel like you want someone there in person, depending on the culture. So again, that would be a consideration. Most fractionals are going to work remotely.

Dr. Rob Harder (15:23)

And so again, as I'm thinking about listeners hearing this, when we think of the nuances between say a consultant and a fractional executive, and of course a full time, I think it makes sense you bring out a full time, like you say, if you have a budget, but bring on somebody who's going to be a staff member. That's one thing. Consultant versus fractional. What I'm hearing from you is a consultant would be much more. Here's the ideas, here's the plan, you implement it. The fractional executive is like, oh no, I'm actually again, you're going to be the one that actually comes up with the strategy and implements it. So between those two options, what would lean for you? If you were to coach a nonprofit organization or consult with them, what would you recommend to them? And why would you recommend say a fractional executive versus a consultant?

Cindy Wagman (16:07)

So there are definitely different kinds of consultants. And I would say fractional is like One model of consulting. And so this is how I would sort of break them down. So there's consultants who are experts who are going to come in and who are going to probably give you advice, practical tactical advice on the area of their expertise. Right. So a capital campaign or a something like that, Right. Where they are coming in, they're advising on that specific thing and then you go out and do it. There are also consultants who are great coaches who will come in and support you as a leader and how you show up. That is completely different and also incredibly valuable in our sector. But that's if you need someone who's going to help you step into your role as a leader and manage the like leadership challenges that you have. Then there's more project based consulting, which there's so many great consultants who specialize in direct appeal or like HR policies. Things that are kind of one off things and sometimes they can be like longer term. But there's a very defined beginning and a very defined end and or deliverable. And fractional is more the like. It's almost a little closer to having someone in house where they're going to do a little bit more like there's going to be a little more flexibility. Again, they're more focused on the implementation. So I always say a fractional should come in. Their first deliverable should be a comprehensive plan for that function, a fundraising plan, an HR audit, like a operational CEO would do, like an operations or a systems audit review. The plan is like a scope of work and it gives you as an organization a really clear picture of what the fractional as the expert is saying they're going to do for you over the next 12 months. Now that's the other thing, fractionals long term. So I always say start with 12 months. But many times it goes beyond that because here's my experience has been there's three key things that lead to success in anything. Having the right strategy, having a clear plan and being really consistent with implementation.

Dr. Rob Harder (18:39)

Yeah, okay.

Cindy Wagman (18:41)

And so fractional kind of combines those three. Three, if you lack the strategic plan, you can bring in someone to bring, but you have the implementation in house. Bring in a consultant to do a plan. But if you're lacking all three, a fractional kind of uniquely addresses them.

Dr. Rob Harder (18:58)

How many hours? I mean, I'm sure it probably depends on the organization, but do you have like a typical, hey, we're going to give 20 hours a week, 30 hours a week or is it monthly or it's just a flat fee. This is a fractional executive and this is what it costs.

Cindy Wagman (19:10)

I talk about monthly retainers. So there's a flat fee per month and the fractional will again their first big deliverable is the scope of work. So it tells you timelines and outputs and all that kind of stuff and when and how they do it. Not important. So there's a few things that I've noticed. So I've trained over 75 nonprofit fractionals so I can tell you that if they're, if you are their first client, you they're going to over deliver. They're going to spend more time if you're the first client and then they build efficiency and so then they get better at managing their time and all of that. I'd say like three to four clients is about capacity. Anywhere from two to four for most people. But that doesn't mean you're getting like a third of someone's week. Right. There's going to be times when you get an hour a week and there's going to be times when you get 20 hours a week and at the end of the day you actually don't know because they're not reporting on that. Exactly. Yeah. The most important thing is is the work getting done and are they getting the results and the rest falls into place.

Dr. Rob Harder (20:22)

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Cindy Wagman (21:40)

Yeah, so my experience it will 100% skew my answer because I'm a fundraiser. For a long time my focus was only on fundraising. Now I work with all kinds of fractionals. So but I can tell you commonly, and I've seen lots across the board, I think fundraising has picked up quickly and so I do think that people just are more comfortable with that. But fractional COO for sure. For sure. Fractional marketing, big.

Dr. Rob Harder (22:15)

Okay.

Cindy Wagman (22:16)

Hr. I work with a number of people in hr. Some of the smaller ones that I think will get there. Volunteer management. Volunteer management I think is a great fit for that and other specialized functions, ones that I don't see. Like I've had conversations with and I haven't seen work that well. But I'm always open to be proven wrong. So programming in house, I would say I've talked to someone who specializes in accreditation for organizations and I couldn't figure out, I was like, I can't see how this stretches out throughout the year because it usually is in cycles. So that doesn't make sense for fractional. And then there is a difference between interim leadership and fractional work. So interim is very much defined in terms of there's a start and end that's very clear. And it is to hold a position during a period of transition, whereas fractional is more long term to grow a position. But a lot of people group them together, which is fine because they have have a lot of similarities. But I do see like interim executive directors or other interim leadership. I would also say that interim can work better for larger organizations. And I don't think fractional does.

Dr. Rob Harder (23:39)

Is that right? Okay, that's good to know too. Yeah. Then sounds like you need for larger organizations an interim is a better fit.

Cindy Wagman (23:45)

Yeah.

Dr. Rob Harder (23:45)

Just by the size of the organization. Okay. Okay. So say this is kind of a little switching a bit from the organization to the person. There may be some of my listeners hearing this, like I may be interested in being a fractional executive. What are some of the next steps that someone should move towards and take if they want to be involved with what you're doing?

Cindy Wagman (24:05)

I love that question. I was just thinking about this because I'm so. I have a program where I teach people that like literally right from the beginning how to set up your business, how to find clients and how to manage clients. So if you go to nonprofit fractionals.com or connect with me on LinkedIn, but I was actually breaking it down. Literally. I was walking earlier today because I will be creating sort of like a smaller program for people who are in house and they're like, I'm curious what do I need to do before I'm ready to take that bigger next step. So I Can outline what I think you need to do. So the first thing is you need, I'm going to call it, I think your exit strategy. I wanted to call it your escape plan. The first thing is know your contract, right? So know and understand. Can you do some work on the side while you're still in house? A lot of fractionals will actually get their first client while they're in house before they give notice and they'll do a little bit of balancing. So know what your contract allows for. The second thing is I would start to look at my budget. The beautiful thing about fractional work is it is retainer. And typically, like I always say, it's around 4,000amonth per client to start depending on where you live. It could be more like in big cities and the like. But if you can start to plan, okay, if I have like 4,000amonth coming in, how many clients do I need to feel really safe and secure and like I can do that. So some people, they, from a budgeting perspective are fine just giving notice. On average, when I teach people, it takes them about 93 or so days to get their first client. Probably takes longer if you're not in our program, but so maybe like three to six months to get your client. And so what's that Runway look like for you? So that will tell you like when, how long you should anticipate, sort of still working or when you want to give notice. But like I said, a lot of people give notice after they get their first client or sometimes after they get their second client. If you are starting to think about this, I would also say warm up your network.

Dr. Rob Harder (26:28)

Okay?

Cindy Wagman (26:28)

People like in my experience that 90% of your clients are going to come from your network and it's not necessarily the network of like people think about business development and they think, okay, I have to have one conversation with this one organization and that's the qualified prospect client for me. And so they think it's very linear, right? It's absolutely not. Business development is much more organic. And so if you can start to warm up your network with, just connect with people you like in our sector, honestly, do not over complicate it. Have coffee with sector friends, just, just reach out to people, make it fun and enjoyable. But connect with your network and warm them up because once you do need to start business development, they'll feel really warm and engaged and that's what you want. So those are the things I would start with as you're sort of like exploring. I also, I have so many resources, so I have a podcast, private podcast, called Fracture, where I talk a lot about the behind the scenes of running a fractional business. And so if you want to start wrapping your head around things, you can subscribe to that. It's also on the website.

Dr. Rob Harder (27:45)

That's good to know. And what you've trained. 75, you said different. Fractional executives. What are some of the qualities and maybe strengths that you see most often are most successful and a good fit for this new role?

Cindy Wagman (27:56)

Okay, I love, love that question. So there's a couple. The first thing is fractionals are doers. So I do have really successful people in my program who come in, they start their consulting journey with fractional and then they end up building agencies and they actually do less and less of the actual work because they're more builders and visionaries and they want to build businesses. But if you want, if you're just like looking to do this on your own, you have to like doing the work, right. You have to be. It's not. If you're at a point in your life where you're like, I really just want to give advice, right. It's not. You are writing, you are, you know, all the other things. Like, it's quite in the weeds. So I always say it's a good fit for you if you want to get out of the politics and just focus on getting good work done. Like, you just want to show up and do a good job. So that's really a good fit. You have to be good at what you do. So I like to suggest at least seven years of experience doing that function so that you have enough experience as a generalist that like, within that function that you can kind of be the expert that you're expected to be. And it is a low risk consulting model. So if you, it's really well suited to people who want to consult. They don't want the revenue roller coaster or the hustle of like trying to find a million clients. Like, you can make most. As I said, you're looking at three clients a year and hopefully some of those last multiple years. So you want to make like you can still make six figures with three clients. You don't want to overcomplicate things. You want to do good work. But a lot of people start with fractional and go and evolve from there as well. So I don't want to rule out the other people, but long term, fractional is kind of how I described it.

Dr. Rob Harder (30:01)

Oh, no, that's good to know. All right, so back to the organization. One of the Thoughts I had was when you get a fractional executive say, we'll just say for the sake of today COO and their fractional executive. How should the lead executive director, CEO integrate the fractional executive into the organization's culture? Because I know team building, team connection, team continuity is so important and proximity is a lot of that. Now you mentioned this is most likely a remote role. Now they maybe come occasionally to the campus or whatever. But how best does a CEO integrate a fractional executive into the team that the person's lead?

Cindy Wagman (30:40)

Well, my hope is and how I train people is that you as the executive director or CEO, you don't have to worry about that because the fractional person is going to do it and they're going to guide you like there you don't have to know all the things. But I know that there's a lot of fractionalists out there who I have not trained. And so if they don't do it themselves, what I would say is I always teach people the first like three months when you're developing that plan, that scope of work, that's when you also really get to embed yourself within the team and get to know and build relationships. So I always suggest meeting not just with the executive director. So you meet with the executive director weekly as a fractional that can ebb and flow depending on the organization. I've had some where like we're cool, two weeks is good, but I recommend weekly at least to start. But at the beginning you want to meet with programming, you want to meet with other functions, you want to get to know the organization as a whole because that also helps you with the plan and helps you with the implementation. So during that first I'd say two to three months, I would expect your fractional to be a little bit more present. So maybe they come into a team meeting every now and then. But I love one on one meetings and so that's usually what I recommend.

Dr. Rob Harder (32:03)

Okay.

Cindy Wagman (32:04)

And probably like to a board meeting every quarter at the beginning. You know, oftentimes they'll present the plan to the board. So that's like it should, they should drive it again should. I would like to see fractionals drive that because the whole point of the fractional is to take stress off the shoulders of the executive director. Don't make them think about these things. You can cover it. So that's what I would expect. But if not regular meetings and definitely, definitely like they should, I always say like whoever you think you need to know and meet with, also meet with like a Few other people.

Dr. Rob Harder (32:44)

Okay. In addition to that. Okay, well, you've worked with a lot of nonprofit organizations. You've seen this. You know, you've seen a lot of trends, I should say, how much is this a new trend? Do you see more organizations hiring fractional executives? Do you see people doing more consulting hires? What are you seeing as a trend line for nonprofit organizations?

Cindy Wagman (33:03)

So, yes to both. First of all, our sector has a human capital problem. People are not happy in house, they're not treated well in house, and so they are leaving. And a lot of us don't want to leave the sector. We just don't want to work in those conditions. And so people are moving to consulting generally, and they're moving to fractional because it is low risk. And it is, again, a lot of people really love what they do. They just don't want to be burnt out doing it. So we see that happen quite a bit. The other thing is organizations are starting to pick up on this idea of fractional. I think it's intriguing. I don't know if everyone fully understands it. In fact, I know they don't. Like, it's still very in its infancy. So people are starting to ask about it, if not for it. But I do. I always. I just had a conversation earlier today with someone saying, like, just because you hear about this thing, like, do your research really think about is this right for you? Just because it's a trend or, you know, shiny object, don't jump on too quick. Take the time to evaluate what your organization needs. But we are seeing the need for this kind of work more especially as people leave this sector. Because what's happening is organizations are. And the world is a hard place to operate a nonprofit in right now. And so people leave and those jobs are being just redistributed amongst existing staff. There's reluctance around hiring because of funding and predictability. So fractional is a bit of a lower risk as well from a human resource perspective because you don't have, like, they're not an employee. You have a lot more flexibility, you have a lot more ability to cut ties and end early and all those kinds of things. Not that I would ever suggest that you do that because that is not good for your organization. But it is less risky as well in some ways for an organization. In other ways. Some organizations are still going to want someone in house. I think there's still a lot of benefit to in house. Again, if. If it can work for you, I'd say that's probably always going to be your like the goal in the end is to have that in house role, but for a lot of organizations it's just not attainable yet.

Dr. Rob Harder (35:35)

Right. Okay. Well, it's such an interesting conversation and I do, I have seen certainly the trend line for consulting work, more and more people doing that for all the reasons you mentioned. And this makes sense to me too. I can see why people would want to go into this, why organizations would want to invest in a fractional executive, particularly when it comes to the implementation piece. So, okay, for my listeners who want to find out a little bit more about you, maybe you learn about what you're doing, learn about your organization. Where would you send them?

Cindy Wagman (36:00)

Yeah, so nonprofit fractionals.com I have kind of two areas of resources. If you want to become a fractional, I've got tons of stuff there. If you want to hire a fractional, I have a directory of all the members of our network and, and I have like a free matchmaking service. So if you feel nice, I'll connect you to a fractional who has been trained by me to do the work. Because as I said, I can't, I can't speak to how everyone does this, but I can tell you the standards that we have. So all of that on my website. But if you want social, I pretty much am only on LinkedIn actively. So Cindy Wagman on LinkedIn and find me there.

Dr. Rob Harder (36:44)

Okay. Well, Cindy, thanks for all you're doing for the nonprofit sector and thanks for sharing your insights on this again. It's a very interesting topic, a growing trend. So just a fun conversation.

Cindy Wagman (36:53)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Dr. Rob Harder (36:56)

Hey, friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe, subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.