Developing Your Own Personal Growth Plan

Summary

Nonprofit Leadership Podcast: Developing Your Own Personal Growth Plan

Host: Rob Harter
Guest: Doug Paul, We Are Catapult
Release Date: January 27, 2025

---

Introduction

In the January 27, 2025 episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, host Dr. Rob Harder delves into the critical topic of developing personal growth plans for nonprofit leaders. With a focus on addressing the pressing issues of recruitment and retention within the nonprofit sector, Rob welcomes Doug Paul from We Are Catapult, an organization dedicated to supporting nonprofit leaders and organizations in scaling and enhancing their impact.

---

Guest Introduction: Doug Paul from We Are Catapult

Doug Paul brings extensive experience in strategic planning and leadership development tailored for nonprofits. We Are Catapult prides itself on going beyond traditional fundraising and development strategies, offering comprehensive services that address the evolving challenges nonprofits face in a rapidly changing world.

---

Key Discussion Topics

1. Recruitment and Retention Challenges in Nonprofits

Rob initiates the conversation by highlighting the intertwined nature of recruitment and retention in the nonprofit sector. He observes:

“Recruitment and retention are really two sides of the same coin in my mind. [00:01]”
— Dr. Rob Harder

Doug concurs, emphasizing the difficulty in maintaining staff within nonprofits, attributing it not solely to post-COVID dynamics but to broader systemic issues:

“Retention is becoming increasingly more difficult... compensation equals salary plus meaning. [03:02]”
— Doug Paul

2. The Role of Strategic Outsiders and Inflection Points

Doug explains the importance of strategic outsiders during pivotal moments in a nonprofit's lifecycle, which he terms "inflection points." These moments can either propel an organization to new heights or lead to its decline. He illustrates this with the example of a founder transitioning out of their role:

“Our expertise is not in leading day to day... it's around those inflection point moments. [06:03]”
— Doug Paul

Rob adds that nonprofits often struggle to pivot effectively during these critical times, underscoring the necessity of external support.

3. Adapting to Rapidly Changing Culture

The conversation shifts to how rapidly evolving cultural dynamics impact nonprofit strategies. Doug notes:

“Culture is accelerating, reinventing itself now at a rate of every 18 months... [03:47]”
— Doug Paul

He stresses the need for nonprofits to embrace innovation as a core component of their culture, advocating for dedicating a portion of efforts to research and development:

“Innovation has to become a core tenet of our culture... [09:10]”
— Doug Paul

4. Strategy Development in Nonprofits

Doug highlights a significant gap in many nonprofits: the lack of a coherent strategy. He references Richard Rumelt's work on good versus bad strategy, emphasizing that:

“Most organizations don't have a strategy at all. [10:20]”
— Doug Paul

He explains that a robust strategy involves clear hypotheses and actionable steps, contrasting it with mere goal-setting, which lacks the "how" component:

“Strategy is answering the how question... [12:19]”
— Doug Paul

Rob echoes this by pointing out that while nonprofits are passionate about their missions ("the why"), they often falter when it comes to strategic planning ("the how").

5. Compensation: Pay Plus Meaning

A central theme of the discussion is the delicate balance between monetary compensation and the intrinsic meaning derived from nonprofit work. Doug introduces the formula:

“Compensation equals pay plus meaning. [20:01]”
— Doug Paul

Rob builds on this by advocating for better pay within nonprofits to match the high expectations and professional standards required:

“If you expect high quality and professionalism, you need to pay for that too... [20:34]”
— Dr. Rob Harder

6. Leadership Development and Personal Growth Plans

The episode delves into the importance of personal leadership growth. Doug describes We Are Catapult's Leadership Intensives, which involve:

• Personal Wiring Analysis: Understanding individual tendencies and life experiences.
• Strategic Planning: Crafting actionable plans aligned with personal and organizational goals.
• Ongoing Support: Quarterly check-ins to monitor progress and adapt strategies.

He emphasizes that leadership is inherently personal and that true growth involves aligning one's authentic self with their leadership role:

“It's about being the you-sized version of you as a leader... [26:29]”
— Doug Paul

7. Retention Strategies and Addressing Hidden Drivers

Addressing retention, Doug introduces three critical questions leaders should regularly ask to uncover hidden motivations and fears among their team members:

1. What am I afraid of losing?
2. What am I trying to hide?
3. What am I trying to prove and to whom?

These questions aim to foster a culture where team members are motivated by a shared mission rather than external rewards:

“Regularly ask... What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove and to whom? [29:42]”
— Doug Paul

---

Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, Doug Paul and Dr. Rob Harder underscore the multifaceted challenges nonprofit leaders face, particularly in navigating recruitment, retention, and strategic planning amidst a rapidly changing cultural landscape. Key takeaways include:

• Strategic Outsiders can provide invaluable perspectives during critical organizational moments.
• Innovation should be ingrained in nonprofit culture to adapt to swift changes effectively.
• Clear, Actionable Strategies are essential for aligning daily operations with overarching missions.
• Balanced Compensation Packages that merge fair pay with meaningful work are crucial for retaining talent.
• Personal Leadership Development empowers leaders to bring their best selves to their roles, enhancing organizational health and impact.

---

Notable Quotes

• “Compensation equals pay plus meaning.”
  — Doug Paul [20:01]

• “Strategy is being able to see... how to deal with barriers.”
  — Doug Paul [11:00]

• “Innovation has to become a core tenet of our culture.”
  — Doug Paul [09:10]

• “What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove and to whom?”
  — Doug Paul [29:42]

---

How to Connect with Doug Paul and We Are Catapult

For listeners interested in furthering their leadership skills and enhancing their nonprofit's strategic direction, Doug Paul invites you to visit We Are Catapult:

• Website: wearecatapult.org
• Resources: Access articles, downloadable eBooks (e.g., "Three Leadership Skills for the Future"), and engage in conversations about leadership development.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast provides invaluable insights for nonprofit leaders striving to develop their personal growth plans and navigate the complexities of their roles. By integrating strategic planning, fostering innovation, and balancing compensation with meaning, leaders can enhance both their personal effectiveness and their organization's impact.

---

Thank you for tuning into the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. To stay updated with more insightful episodes, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, or visit nonprofitleadershippodcast.org.

Transcript

[Dr. Rob Harder]

This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit Leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who. Who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Always good to have you here. So I've had lots of conversations recently about recruitment and retention. Those are huge issues right now facing us in the nonprofit sector. Now, I do think it's facing all the different sectors, not just the nonprofit sector. But since this is a nonprofit leadership podcast, we're gonna talk about primarily the nonprofit sector. And today we're gonna look at it from a little bit different angle. But I've been a big believer, you've heard me say this over and over again, that recruitment and retention are really hooked together. They're really two sides of the same coin in my mind. And we're having a difficult time keeping our people at nonprofits. Retention is becoming increasingly more difficult. I don't think it's just a post Covid thing. I think it's something bigger than that. And my guest will say this with this, compensation equals salary plus meaning. And I think he's right on this. And I think no matter what kind of cut you may have taken, if you came to the nonprofit sector, getting paid more from whatever job you had, or you're coming into the nonprofit sector and you realize you could get paid better and higher at a different job that's in the for profit sector. If you don't have the right quotient, if you will, of meaning, it's really difficult to recruit people and retain people. And that is one of the things that's showing up in the data. Not the only thing, right. But it's one of the issues is really having that proper balance. And I think this perspective, if you will, this equation of bringing together your salary and meaning together, that's what the compensation package really looks like for a nonprofit organization. So we're going to talk about leadership, how to grow as a leader, what they provide leaders in terms of helping them become stronger leaders, better focused on strategy, developing a more clear strategy. So a lot of interesting conversation topics that we have. And again, my guest is Doug Paul from We are Catapult, and it's an organization that really comes alongside leaders and organizations in order to help them grow, scale, and become more healthy. So, as always, thanks for tuning in. Now, onto the show. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Well, welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I have Doug Paul on the show from Catapult. Doug, thanks for joining us on the show.

[Doug Paul]

Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Yeah, absolutely. You do a lot of things that catapult to both help organizations and leaders. So let's just talk about that. What are some of the great things you're doing to help organizations grow and scale? And how can perhaps traditional strategies become a hindrance to growth and success as organizations evolve?

[Doug Paul]

I mean, we do strategic planning, leadership intensives, refreshing a nonprofit's model in some culture, building some other things. I mean, I feel like 85% of strategic outsiders are doing, like, fundraising, development and training, stuff like that. And that's just not where we wanted to major. But we are. We're really interested in the idea of, like, there are these traditional strategies and playbooks that nonprofits use, but the world is wildly different.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Than some of those playbooks and when they were written specifically. And you think one of the things that is really interesting is culture is accelerating, like, in reinventing itself now at a rate of every 18 months, and it used to be every 18 years. So, like, so what we're doing is we're taking, like, a generation of change and compressing all of those changes in 18 months.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's amazing. That's incredible.

[Doug Paul]

It's wild. So my wife's a sociologist, and so, like, this is just dinner table conversations.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

I love it. I love to be at those dinner conversations. They're pretty meaty.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. I think it's. Sometimes we get stuck and we don't know why. And I think just at a first glance, one of the reasons is, like, things change so fast.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

It feels like we're never going to be able to keep up. And so what do we do when we kind of, like, admit defeat because no one can keep up those kinds of changes. That's not possible. So if that's true, what do we do? And so in many ways, that's where the crux of our work with Catapult comes in.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's a good. No, I like that backdrop. And it is incredible to think how things are so quickly changing. It's Interesting, isn't it? I've had so many, so many conversations on the show with nonprofit organizations, particularly during COVID I feel like Covid really pushed everybody to the same level of we need to adapt and be flexible and be nimble or we're not going to survive, essentially. And I think now, with all what you're just sharing now, everyone needs to stay at that same level too and realize things are changing so quickly around us. You can have to continue to be flexible and nimble. So now let's talk a little bit more about what you provide. I realize you specialize in helping organizations thrive. Right. As an outside consultant. And I'm a big believer that there are times when a nonprofit needs an outside consultant. As you know, I'm a consultant and coach. And so a strategic outsider can really help guide the planning process for a nonprofit organization, particularly with some challenges. Maybe they just get stuck on or they are currently stuck on helping them work through that, come up with new strategies. Why is it, in your opinion, from your experience, and of course I know you're speaking as a consultant, but why is it important to have a strategic outsider that can really provide maybe a new and fresh perspective and be really beneficial to a nonprofit organization?

[Doug Paul]

Sounds like you're asking me to sell.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Why my job here. Prove yourself. Why do you need this?

[Doug Paul]

Again, I don't think nonprofits need a consultant all the time, but I do think they're like pivotal moments in the life cycle of an organization that are inflection points.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And those can be like positive inflection points or they can be negative inflection points. And sometimes we actually don't know which way it's going to go.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

So like any, like just a classic example in this sector is there's a founder and they're retiring.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Or they're moving on. They're doing something different. They have been. They have the story. They're the lifeblood. And it's a really dangerous time for a nonprofit. But it's also like loaded with opportunity.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Doug Paul]

So it could be a positive inflection point or a degrading inflection point. So I think in many ways the reason you bring in a strategic outsider at those moments is our expertise is not in leading day to day leadership of a nonprofit. That's what the executive director, CEOs like. That's where their 10,000 hours are.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

Our 10,000 hours are around those inflection point moments. And when you know, it's like, it's either like massive opportunity or massive Danger. You want to give yourself every chance to get the win.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And it's like the ability to position yourself to get that win is really important.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

I like how you said that inflection points are so important. You're absolutely right and critical. And a lot of nonprofits don't pivot well around inflection points. So let's talk about another thing. Past experiences. I think as a nonprofit leader, certainly having past experience is absolutely critical. I mean, I think that's very important. You want to build off your past experience. However, sometimes there is a limitation when you only rely on your past experience. So how can nonprofits, from what you've experienced. Speaking of experience, how can nonprofits overcome the limitations of relying only on their past experience and expertise in order to really navigate future challenges? We already talked about how technology is changing, our culture is changing information, and the amount of information we get is rapidly changing. So all these things are coming at us very quickly. How can we make sure we're able to navigate these future challenges?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, there's the cultural component of this and how things are accelerating and changing, but then there's also just, like, human behavior and what humans are like. And there's this phenomenon that you're probably familiar with that's called the curse of knowledge. And it's this idea, like, there's this cruel irony that the more successful you are at doing something, the harder it is to see other ways of doing it. And so like Adam Grant, he writes about this a little bit in his book Original. So I don't want to pretend like I came up with this, but he talks about, like, we become prisoners of our prototypes, and the more successful you are, the harder it is to see different ways of doing it. Generally speaking, I think there are two ways that we can navigate this. One, and this will sound completely self serving, is bringing someone from the outside who actually doesn't see things the way that you see things. And that actually is the gift that they're bringing. They bring what are what are called fresh eyes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

The second thing, and I think this has just got to become more normalized in, in our nonprofit sector, is we need to make innovation a core tenet of our culture.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

And like, what we need to do is to, like, help nonprofits really think, think through. Like, how do we create little pockets of R and D and see that as some of, like, the most important part of our mission as the leader of a nonprofit is to at least have 5 to 10% of our effort around thinking through the future and around the next couple of corners like that has to become. I really think this is like one of my soapbox issues. I think this is one of like this idea around innovation and adaptability with leadership. This is one of the core leadership skills of the future.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. No, I like it. Well, and that leads us well into strategy. How to develop an actionable strategy plan, like, that's really important for a nonprofit leader organization. So how does what you provide help align an organization's vision on the one hand with its day to day operations? What have you found to be really effective on the strategy front?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, well, this is one where like I can just.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

This could be a long answer. Yeah. 10 minutes.

[Doug Paul]

I might be the only one who enjoys the rabbit hole. So. 93.1% of nonprofit employees don't understand how their everyday work connects to the strategy.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Interesting.

[Unnamed Guest]

Wow.

[Doug Paul]

Maybe a little while later we'll talk about like why that is so undermining in the nonprofit sector specifically. But here's the. Like, like one of the big statements I would make. Most organizations don't have a strategy at all.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

So they have things that they're doing and they have a mission, but they have no. Like a strategy is a hypothesis. If I do blank, then blank will happen.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And that means by definition it could be wrong.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes.

[Doug Paul]

And so, you know, if there's any book, like I could pitch to your listeners to read, there's this book by this guy named Richard Rummel. Good strategy, Bad strategy.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay, one more time. The book, the entitle for my listeners.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. It's called Good Strategy, Bad Strategy by Richard Rummel.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Perfect, thank you. Okay, we'll put that in the show Notes.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. And he talks about like there are certain hallmark that show that there's either missing strategy or bad strategy.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

So he talks about fluff meaning like almost like corporate jargon words like synchronicity, like, that's our strategy. It's like that's, that's not a strategy, that's just a piece of jargon.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

An inability to like actually face the challenges. So strategy is being able to see, like if we're trying to get from A to B, there are barriers to getting to B. How are we going to deal with those barriers?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And if you don't actually name them, you don't have a winning strategy.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

I like that.

[Doug Paul]

I think the biggest one, his third one, is mistaking goals for strategy. That somehow because we become more KPI driven just by slapping up some goals.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes.

[Doug Paul]

We suddenly have a strategy. Like. No, you have Goals. That doesn't mean you know how to get to the goals. Strategy is answering the how question.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Doug Paul]

And then lastly, like, just bad strategic objectives. What if, like, I'm trying to get from A to B, but B is a bad place to be?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Like, I've actually misread the room.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

So I think one of the things that's so important for nonprofits to do is to name, like, this is where we want to be, and if we want to get here, here's our if, then strategy statement of how we intend to do that, and every single thing we do, we can filter through that, all of our decision making, all the way down to every single day. I know exactly how the things that I'm doing connect to that strategy. If I can't do that, I've actually got a bad strategy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

So if I'm hearing you right, so you feel like non profits, maybe in general are decent with the why, but the how, the strategy part is where they really struggle.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, I mean, like, the why, like, you know, Simon Sinek, you got to start with the why.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Like, exactly.

[Doug Paul]

That's why we're in this game to begin with. That's what gets us up in the morning.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's right.

[Doug Paul]

That's why we can't go to bed at night, because we're worried the why won't materialize.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

But we. That doesn't mean we have a good plan. It just means we've got the heart for it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's good. I like that distinction. I think you're absolutely right on that. That's good. Well, you've worked for, like, I've heard over 1300 nonprofits across various sectors, and you've gained a lot of insights. I know, from this. Give us a couple of your key findings when it comes to what leads to effective leadership, when it comes to nonprofit organizations.

[Doug Paul]

All right. Well, just to be clear, I've not personally worked with 1300 with the organization does or has.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's a lot of nonprofits right there.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, here's what I was just. Let me preface this. I'm gonna make a couple of big statements.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay? All right.

[Doug Paul]

You tell me if you think I'm wrong.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

It's perfectly fine with me. First, I think leading a nonprofit is the hardest job in the world.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

I agree.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. We were working.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Well, let me stop you. Why do you think that? What's the reason? Maybe that's what you're gonna say, but.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Why? Why is that?

[Doug Paul]

I think you have the most. The largest number of variables that aren't controllable.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

In that position because so much of it is like how is the market doing that will control. Like, because it's built on donors. For most nonprofits are. The world that most nonprofit leaders grew up in was in the business world. And the, the fundamentals of the business world are different as it relates to leadership and what it looks like to lead day to day in that organization. We were working with this guy who was, he was the CFO of a global conglomerate, I mean a 30 billion dollar corporation. And he took over a very large flagship non profit and he bombed out in less than a year.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Wow.

[Doug Paul]

Not because he wasn't a good leader.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

It's because the fundamentals of the leadership of an organization of a nonprofit are different.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And adapting to that quickly is very difficult even for the sharpest of leaders.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Just why I think it's such a hard job. There's a whole bunch of other stuff that goes along. Why I think it's a hard job, but I think it's really difficult.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofits donations? Well, look no further than Donorbox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donor donorbox.org. hey friends, thanks so much for listening to the nonprofit leadership podcast. Many of you know that I provide leadership and life coaching. With my 30 years of nonprofit experience, I know firsthand how hard leaders like you work. I also know how important it is to have someone you can call on and to get help with the barriers and leadership challenges you will face both professionally and personally. I really want to help people thrive and become all they were meant to become by providing coaching and consulting services. And it's been so much fun working as a coach, working with clients who are leaders just like you, looking to grow personally and professionally. What you may not know is that I also provide consulting services. Currently, in fact, I'm working with an organization to help them create a clear strategy and plan to raise $3.5 million to expand their organization. So perhaps you're an executive director and you sense your organization has hit a lid on growth and you need a strategy as to how you can scale your nonprofit. Or perhaps the culture you set out to create is not the culture you have currently and it's impacting your staff retention. Or maybe you're facing a major resource challenge and you don't know what to do. That's where I can help. I come alongside leaders and organizations to create strategies to grow their organizations and maximize their impact. If your nonprofit needs help with fundraising strategy or operational effectiveness, reach out today. You can simply email [e-mail] you can go to my website robharder.com or you can call me 435-776-5173. I would be happy to provide a free sample coaching session or a consult to see how I can best be of help to you and your organization. Well, thanks again for listening. Now back to the show. Oh, I think you're right. You know, it's interesting. I recently had lunch with a friend who worked at the Citi position and with the city, you know, they have a pretty large tax base. And so one of the things he realized as he switched down to the nonprofit sector as an executive director was that all these departments, whether it be HR or finance or marketing, communication tech, when he worked at the city, he was like, oh yeah, there was a department for every one of those areas for his non profit. Now it's a little bit more on the smaller end, but it would, they didn't have a department, it was him. Like he'd have to go get it and figure out, okay, I gotta do this and I've gotta do this, I've gotta do this. Like so he didn't realize that's one another thing I would say for nonprofits that unless you start really growing and scaling, you're going to end up doing a lot of things and you have to do them really well because people have high expectations for you because they want you, hey, I invested money in your organization, do something good with it, right? So there's high pressure, high expectation. But there's not often enough money to hire all the people you need and therefore you end up doing way more. And so yeah, I think it is one of the most difficult positions of leadership. And then the last piece would just be so much of what you do as a nonprofit also depends on volunteers. So people choose to be involved or not. They're not required to be there. You can't incentivize them by giving them a trip to Hawaii like they're doing there because hopefully you're leading well and you're providing a compelling mission, but you have to have a good strategy to achieve that mission. So anyway, I'm definitely right there with you. I think it's one of the most leadership intensive positions you can get. So any other thoughts on that?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. To go to your question, like, what have we learned?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Is necessary for effective leadership? I think it starts with, you know, I think Max Dupree talked about, like the first job of a leader is to define reality.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Yeah, I like that.

[Doug Paul]

And I think one of the pieces of reality that some non profit leaders have not seen, not because they're trying to avoid it, but it's like I didn't even fully see it until someone actually told this to me is the compensation formula for staff is different.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And so the way that we kind of think about it is compensation equals pay plus meaning.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

And so if I. Because what we're saying in the nonprofit sector is you're going to take a 30 to 40% haircut on how much you're going to make.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And the trade off that you're getting is more meaning.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

Well, that's a really delicate balance because what if the fundamentals of our strategy or our plan or my job change and suddenly the meaning drops?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And I become dissatisfied with the meaning? Well, then I've got, I've got a problem on my hands as the leader of that nonprofit. Because now I have someone who feels like they're being undervalued and undercompensated.

[Unnamed Guest]

Exactly.

[Doug Paul]

Even though their pay is the same.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Doug Paul]

Because they, as nonprofit leaders, we didn't recognize the formula.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And so I think that's one of the big ones.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's a good way to put it, I think. Actually. I like what you said. And the other interesting thing is I've had again, many people on the show that work at corporations that now have a social enterprise or a philanthropic foundation or fund that's a part of or an arm of their big business. Google has it, Amazon have it. All these big corporations have this now and they're trying to inject value, if you will, or a mission driven aspect to their company. So you could say, well, I'll just work for them and do good and I get compensated much better. And so you're right. I think that combination is really important to make sure you have both. But I think it is a delicate balance. I'm also a big believer that we need to pay people better in the nonprofit world. If you expect high, you know, quality and professionalism, you need to pay for that too. And we shouldn't just Expect people to just be good with a 30 or 40%, maybe it's a 20, 25%. Right. But it's not so low that that meaning quotient, like you said, part of the equation is just not sufficient to get them to the point where they'll stay. Because, you know, that's another thing. I just had multiple conversations with staff retention topics, and that is one of the biggest issues right now facing our sector is just not the ability to keep people. And one of its compensation reasons.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. And I speak. It's a little bit what you're just kind of drafting off of what you just said. This is one of those where you're like, you might cringe a little, but sort of the way that we talk about just your average nonprofit organization is it has a kind of like, bigger heart, lower competency culture.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

Like, because it attracts people who are like, I'll make less money. But sometimes the people who would say that also do not have the requisite skills in order to do that.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Fair point.

[Doug Paul]

And so, again, I'm not trying to. Like, that's a bit of an overstatement. Right. But I think if you're listening to this podcast, there's a very good chance, you know what I'm talking about, where you had a group of people who were well meaning but did not have all of the skills that you would like them to have to be in the role that they had.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And so, like, that goes back to, like, this is one of the reasons it's a really hard job. The hardest in the world.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Doug Paul]

Is how do you take that kind of culture? Culture change is the hardest leadership skill there is.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

How do you change that culture to keep the heart, add, like, positive pressure to, like, increase the skills as well and to change the culture.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

No, that's a. It's. Yeah, we'll have to have that. Get another conversation for another day. But I think. Yes, in the sense of. I think just to be aware of that. I think you're absolutely right. And then it kind of leads me to. I wanted to ask more about these leaders and intensives that you provide because it's. Again, we're talking about leadership and. And particularly in the nonprofit sector. And this podcast is dedicated to leadership. And I think it's so important that people continue to grow and develop as leaders as their organization grows, because if they want their organization to grow, they need to grow individually as leaders. Talk more about the process of helping people through their own personal leadership growth plan. You provide that with these intensives. That you offer there catapult. I think you believe you focus on wiring, calling and story and then you help create a plan from there. Talk a about that. How does that work out and what are some of those key pieces that you help leaders go through?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. Again, if you're listening to this, we've all as leaders had those pivotal moments in our. In the same way that organizations have a pivotal moment. The same is true of us as leaders. Like there are, there are times in our life where it feels like a window of change has opened and we're not exactly sure how to navigate that. Like, do I stay here? Am I supposed to go somewhere else? Is like, do we need the chain? Like what's. There's a restlessness that we sometimes feel. Yeah. Or even just like tiredness because leadership in this sector can feel sometimes like death by a thousand paper cuts. And we have to know that the suffering is worth it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

I mean this is like, you know, if you've ever read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sure.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Great book.

[Doug Paul]

He talks about like the ability to find meaning and suffering is how we keep going.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And so if we're going to stay in the game leading a very difficult thing, like some of the most important things that exist.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

I need to be able to bring my best self to that.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And so the intensive is really trying to unwind like the way that we're wired as like you uniquely the things that like brought you into this sector, into living in the beginning and then like where are you like as it relates to you, your health, your family, the things that you want to do? Because we're holistic beings. We're not, we're not automatons who can beautifully like separate like the work life and everything else in life. We actually, we need help untangling some of those things. And so, you know, leadership is really personal. So we try to make that intensive. Like it should feel freeing. It's not therapy, it is not life coaching. It's just trying to help you get clarity.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

Where you should focus and like bring your best, healthiest self.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

And as you do this work with leaders, how does one connecting their natural tendencies and their life experiences and personal choices together really help strengthen one's leadership and then address potential weaknesses?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. So I think there's the personal wiring perspective, but then there's like the culture that we all find ourselves in.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And there are all kinds of cultural oughts and shoulds. So like a good leader ought to do this. A bad Leader should never do this.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right, right.

[Doug Paul]

And that can change depending on which sector you find yourself in. But that doesn't mean that that's who you are.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Doug Paul]

And so part of it is just untangling. You heard at some point in your life when you were 19 that a leader does blank. And you've been trying to live into that since you were 19, but it's not who you are. What would it look like to be the you size version of you as a leader?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

Not trying to fill in someone else's mold. So I think part of that is just who are you? And really unpacking that and the shaping experiences you've had in a way that allows you to be free, to be the best version of your leadership self.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

And these intensives, do they sign up and then it's a period of a couple of days, weeks, and then there's a follow up. Tell us a little bit about the process of that.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. So it starts with a couple of days where we're together. It's one on one. And it's. I mean it's conversational, it's relaxed. There are some exercises, but like meals and. But it's meant to be like we're going on walks, going to museums, things like that. But like trying to stay active and engaging all of ourselves in that. Out of that, we're starting to develop a really simple plan for what your next season should look like of leadership and some like just really practical, actionable next steps. And as that develops over usually like a month or two, once that's finalized, we usually do about six to nine months of quarterly check in.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Just to like, how are those goals going? And just making sure that you're refreshing for what the next 90 days should look like and just having like starting to turn the flywheel of refreshing those 90 days so that you can live into the plan.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. I like it. Well, we talked a little bit about, again, retention just from. Since you're doing so much work with organizations and leaders, trying to make them better and stronger and healthier, what are you seeing in terms of why people, why nonprofit organizations specifically are having such a hard time keeping their people and motivating them to stay, what have you found in your neck of the woods, so to speak?

[Doug Paul]

It's a good question, I think reference the one question, the one thing I said earlier around, meaning, okay, our ability to help the people who are on our teams find meaning in what they're doing. And they've made that trade off. They don't Even know that they. That was not a conscious decision they made, but it's rumbling around inside of them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

So I think being able to, like, help people see my job as the leaders, to help them find meaning in what they're doing is really important. I do think they're like, as human beings, we are wired towards self preservation.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And we oftentimes will make snap decisions without understanding why we're even making those decisions. And so I think one of the things that we found that is helpful and in helping leaders create sort of like the little, like, jargony catchphrase that we have. We want to have culture in teams where everyone wants to work and no one wants to lose.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

And the hallmark of those is we're actually fighting self preservation in each of the team members.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Doug Paul]

And we usually are doing that in regularly asking ourselves three questions. Number one, what am I afraid of losing? Two, what am I trying to hide? And three, what am I trying to prove and to whom?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Say those questions again just for my listeners. I think they're good. Good questions.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? And what am I trying to prove and to whom?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. Yeah, Good questions.

[Doug Paul]

And so just by regularly being in conversation, either like as the leader, one on one with someone that I'm mentoring or investing in, or creating a culture of leadership development, or even as a team, like at an executive team level, or however big your organization is, just make normalizing those kinds of questions, recognizing we have hidden drivers in us that make us make snap decisions. And that's also just to be clear, like, that is also true in the business world. This is not a nonprofit, unique thing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

This is sector wide.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Doug Paul]

So I think it's just everyone's struggling with retention right now, and there's a reason for that that's not unique to us.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. No. Very helpful insights. This has been great conversation. So how can people find out more about you and more about Catapult?

[Doug Paul]

Yeah. If you go to we are catapult.org you will find our website.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Hey, that's pretty easy. Okay.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, we've got, you know, like, everyone, we've got some, I think some really good articles. We've got some downloadable ebooks. One of the more popular ones are the three leadership skills for the future. A lot of people have downloaded that link.

[Unnamed Guest]

Nice.

[Doug Paul]

Would love to chat to anyone who wants to talk.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's awesome. Well, I love what you're doing. Investing in leaders, and then in turn, you're investing in organizations. So thanks for all you're doing for the nonprofit leaders that are out there listening.

[Doug Paul]

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Absolutely. You got it. Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofitleadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening, and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.