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- [00:02]
A
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit Leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are, who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better.
- [00:37]
Everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. Welcome back to the show. I'm Rob Harder, your host for the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. So today we've had the privilege here on the show to interview lots of different foundations, most recently Newman's Own foundation. We've also had the Walmart Foundation. We've had the Hilton foundation, among others. So we have another foundation on the show today that's the Caterpillar Foundation. They started in the Midwest, but now they're based out of D.C. and why I think it's always interesting to have foundations on this show is because. Well, a couple of reasons. Number one, they just give a lot of money to organizations, both locally, statewide, throughout the country, in America, and then also, of course, around the world. Now, I think foundations are going to play even a bigger role than they already are because we're living particularly in the American context with all these very large federal cuts. Right. And funding. And what does that do? Well, where's the money going to come from in order to support these nonprofit organizations and social impact causes? A lot of the pressure now probably is landing more on foundations. So I asked this question of my guest today. That's many, many questions I ask. But I think that's an interesting thing to think through. And my guess is if you are either an executive director or CEO of your social impact organization, or if you're a development director, you are trying to diversify your income, Right. You're diversifying your fundraising. And particularly if you relied on some federal gr and you're going to lean into foundations. And so she'll share. One of the questions I ask her actually is what should social impact organizations know when it comes to asking for money from foundations like her own? So this and many more questions I ask of Asha Varghese, and she heads up the Caterpillar foundation, and we'll discover how much they've given. You'll be shocked. So you have to listen to the podcast. How much money they've given out. They started in 1952, and they've given a lot of money between then and now. And then at the very beginning of the podcast, I asked her the question about this major, you know, milestone of how much money they've given away, and she said, this is not a finish line. It's a launching pad. And I love that phrase. And I think for a lot of us, when it comes to raising money or whatever goals we have, it's okay to celebrate and recognize, hey, we've hit the finish line. We've met that goal. But you don't want to stay there, right? Whatever goal you have right now with your organization, and maybe now it's tougher than ever to raise money. What is your launching pad? Not what's your finish line? But what's your launching pad? That's the approach that Asha takes to what she's doing there at the Caterpillar Foundation. It's a fascinating conversation. Always love having you tuning into the show. Now on to my interview with Asha.
- [03:19]
This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox. DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms and in the business. Well, welcome back, everybody, to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Harder, and I'm excited to invite Asha Varghese to the show today. Asha, thanks for joining on.
- [03:35]
B
Thanks to. Great to be here, Rob.
- [03:37]
A
Absolutely. Well, I really have had the joy, if you will, of having many foundations on the show. We've had the Walmart foundation, we've had the Hilton foundation recently, and the Newman's Own foundation, all doing really good work. And like I was saying right before we hit record, it's always interesting, like, the foundation you represent is a name that everyone knows. People know these corporate names. But I think what it's interesting is a lot of people, maybe even most people, don't know the foundation that you represent and all that you're doing to give money back into communities and across the world in your case. So I'm really excited to lay out a few things for my listeners so they know about, you know, what you're doing. So, number one, you work for the Caterpillar foundation. And I'll give a couple of numbers here, actually one big one for my listeners just to get the scope and the scale of what the Caterpillar foundation has done since the founding of 1952. You've given out $1 billion through your foundation, which. That's incredible. That's a lot of money given to all kinds of causes all across the world. So maybe let's start with that. What does it mean to you that this foundation has given that much money over all these years to invest in communities all over the world?
- [04:47]
B
You're right, Rob, in that today and this year, we're celebrating a remarkable milestone. As you said, it speaks volume. Not just the number, but also the long term commitment and the impact that we've had, the global impact that we've had as a foundation. So the Caterpillar foundation has officially reached 1 billion in investments since its founding in 1952. And you know, it's more than a number to us. It is really the testament of that sustainable progress. Seven decades of empowering community, being with the communities to really focus from anywhere from disaster relief to education to sustainable infrastructure and really focusing on that economic opportunity. So it's a reflection of catacombish core values, especially the belief that stronger communities really build strong businesses. So the foundation's work really amplifies this by supporting our partners on the ground who are really driving that change, that real lasting change. So I just want to be very clear that this milestone is in the finish line for us. It's really a launchpad. And so that's what it really means to us at the foundation. And to me, it's really setting that stage for an even more ambitious goal, you know, deeper collaboration that we're able to make with our partners. And how are we constantly thinking about innovative solutions that'll tackle some of these global challenges that we're facing. So, you know, it is really a celebration of that collaboration. Thousands of nonprofits and community leaders, and to our employees as well, that have contributed to this journey. So this is their success too. So here's to next billion where we're able to make that impact and in that shared purpose. So it means millions of lives touched. It means long term investment in people and planet and its potential. So we're just getting started with this.
- [06:48]
A
I love that phrase. It's not the finish line, it's a launchpad. I think that could be a podcast in and of itself about how non profits and social impact organizations and foundations can really see where they are, whatever goal they've reached. It's just a launch pad to do more and do more good. So I love that. So, okay, good. So we've talked about the amount of money you've distributed. Let's talk a bit more about the actual work you do. Because you invest in communities, so you seek to build more resilient, sustainable communities. That's, you know, based on your primary mission. How have you Gone about that. Maybe give a couple examples of how you've done that in actual communities.
- [07:22]
B
Yeah. And for the last 70 years, Caterpillar foundation has invested in communities and what started off as giving to a firehouse in East Peoria. So humble beginnings have expanded us to across multiple continents, across many countries. This isn't just a focus on philanthropy. It's really about a broader vision of corporate social responsibility and how we're showing up in community. So our mission, as you said, is simple but powerful. How are we helping build that strong, resilient communities? And there's a threefold approach that we take which has that deep rooted impact. One, we're really looking to invest in the skills that people need to thrive in today's workforce. So economic empowerment for us starts with that opportunity. So how are we equipping people with the right skills that they need in order to attain a job in an industry? And the second is really about how are we focusing on the natural infrastructure that allows communities to withstand the shocks and stresses of disaster, so the ecosystem and the resources that you would really need in order to sustain life and livelihoods. And the third is an important part of how we function as a, as a foundation is really how are we harnessing the passion of our employees, our retirees, and even our dealers who are bringing their hearts and hands to the communities that we serve. So places where our employees live and work. So a combination of these three things to be very strategic as an organization. Organization really helps us to be impactful in the communities. But what's really more important is that is how we're approaching this work. We never go into a community thinking that we have the answers. What we're really there for is to listen and to understand. How do we really design solutions that are long lasting and that has impact? And how do we really empower local leaders and organizations who understand the cultural context and who understand what does sustainable solutions really look like, how do we work with them within these strategic pillars to really make that impact. So those are some of the ways in which we're really engaged and happy to kind of walk through some of those examples of how we collaborate across sectors and how we look at this beyond philanthropy. And it's about collaboration, it's about that purpose. And I say we're truly privileged to be part of that, surely with the communities.
- [09:52]
A
Well, I love hearing just kind of your approach to things. And another thing that's a real hallmark that I've learned about the Caterpillar foundation specifically is your disaster preparedness in Other words, you work with some major disasters around the world and you really provide that preparedness and come alongside communities that have been hit by a bad disaster. Talk about that. How do you balance on the one hand, you know, its efforts between these disasters, which sadly there's kind of a disaster all the time right around the world anyway. There's always something that's happened because of weather patterns or whatever's going on. Earthquake, how do you do that? But also you look to, I know you're trying to build resilient communities and develop more financial empowerment. How do you kind of come at a crucial moment, a critical moment where you're probably bringing lots of the help that's coming from one direction to the community, but then you're also wanting to sustain that community and help come alongside and help raise up, you know, leaders and help the community itself to really stand on its own two feet and move forward. So how do you do that? You talked about workforce development and really training people on jobs. Talk about more about how you keep that priority in straight and where you're not coming in and then staying. And in a sense then people just become dependent on all the, you know, donations you give to them and all the relief aid, if you will. But you're really actually empowering them to lead for themselves.
- [11:09]
B
I think you summarized it so well on how okay approach your work, but specifically on disaster, I'll say it's definitely been a journey for us in yearning. And to your point of there's the frequency of disasters have definitely increased in the last decade or so. And what that has taught us really is that part of building that resilient community is making sure that the community is also ready to not just to respond to disasters, but they can recover and thrive afterwards well after, you know, the media has gone off of it and the community still needs to recover well after a disaster happens. So at the Caterpillar foundation, one of the things that we've taken an approach in the disaster space is that long term systemic approach to disaster philanthropy. That means we're investing in the infrastructure both on the build side as well as on the natural infrastructure. One where before disaster strikes. So we look at communities where that are pro to disasters and an example of that is our Flood Resilient Communities Coal Board with the American Flood Coalition. So what that organization did was in under resourced communities in the Carolinas that were recently impacted in providing them with access to funding but also driving their own flood resilient projects. So they have ways in which they can access the different funding that's available in order to recover from the disaster. Another way in which we look at it is really on that preparedness side. So looking at preparedness for partnerships, whether a good example of that is disaster length, where we're enabling rapid localized response by supporting frontline organizations well before a crisis even begin. So that's the preparedness aspect of it. The next is really working on leveraging sort of on the ground resources and trusted collaborations that will enable that rapid local action. So for example, Red Cross is a great partner in all our schools. We, you know, usually you see them first on the ground. So how do we help to position them with supplies, train volunteers, develop technologies that will keep these families in safe. So and then our employees really show up during a disaster, whether it's through the matching events that we do and with our dealers that show up as part of the response. Because a lot of times our equipment is used in order to clear the debris and ultimate support. So it's really a partnership with both how the foundation's showing up and the long term is really in that recovery is just as critical. So while we do the preparedness, while we do that long term infrastructure, there's also an immediate means that for example with Hurricane Haley, when that hits, our investment through the cbp, which is an organization, center for Disaster Philanthropy and the Atlantic Hurricane Recovery Fund. And really how are we pooling all of our funds to be able to support local organizations that are on the ground and really helping families kind of build that long road to recovery. So our goal is really in that four pronged approach of how are we ensuring that the communities have all that they need in order, just not for that immediate, but also for that long term recovery and sustainability well after the crisis is hit and making that into lasting impact. So yeah, we're continuing to kind of learn from that. But that's been our strategy of now to how are we really approaching in a very profitable way?
- [14:37]
A
Well, this would be interesting for my listeners I think because we all see the disasters that happen in front of our TV now because we have 24 hour news coverage. And so you'll see these disasters. And you're right, the American Red Cross or just the Red Cross internationally typically is one of the first groups on the ground there helping. So give us a scenario like so say the Red Cross is there and then you would come alongside with what logistical help, material help people help, all the above. Tell us how does that kind of split up and you say you partner with them and I'm Sure. There's other people too on the ground, you know, even government workers, perhaps government, maybe FEMA people at places like that, when it's a. Say something in America. Tell us how that works out because I think it'll be interesting because we talk a lot on the show about how nonprofits work together with other nonprofits and with government entities and sometimes the for profit businesses and they all kind of work together to solve, you know, some big problems. And here's a real tangible on the ground level and a disaster situation. So yeah, maybe for my listeners, talk a little bit more. How does that actually roll out on the street level?
- [15:35]
B
Yeah, and it really depends on the nature of investor and it goes back to sort of making sure that we're listening to what the community needs rather than just going in and saying, well, well, let's give you more of any one resource where, you know, we try to look and see where is the coordination happening and how is it being coordinated. So with the American Red Cross, through their annual disaster giving program, it allows us to pre fund the organization because they're typically out there training folks, they're, you know, preparing for the materials that they need because once a disaster strikes, it's a little too late for us to, you know, making sure that they have all the right skills and the right resources to get on the ground and do what they need to do right away. So that's one element of it. The other piece is really then understanding who is providing the support and where do they need the support and how can we bring the full DNA of the company to really show up in that support, whether that's in the form of power, whether that's in the form of equipment, and that's where our dealers really show up because they're on the ground and they're able to provide the resources they need in order to support local organizations or even providing our own, you know, technical force to be able to provide that support. So La Priors is a good example of how our machines helped.
- [16:57]
In that process. And then sometimes you just need to be able to pool resources to say this needs to be done in a very systemic fashion. And working with organizations like Female to then be able to say how are funds being deployed and just having a very systemic approach. And that's one of the great things I really like about how we have learned from disasters where rather than it being a chaos and everyone just kind of, you know, coming at it from different angles, really coordinating our efforts, especially from the corporate sector, to then say whether it's the funding, whether it's the equipment, you know, what other resources and how do we really show up during that relief effort. And then it's that long term of how do we reduce the impact of these disasters and the cost that's associated with the recovery. And that's where our natural infrastructure solutions like mitigation on flooding, on fire, all of those programs really come to play in with various partners. And I give 100% kudos to all of our partners that are doing the work on the ground. And it's really impactful to Pennesse when we really let them do what they, what they're good at and what they bring to the table. It's a beautiful recipe of long term impact.
- [18:11]
A
It's always impressive to see organizations like your own and the Red Cross and others that come together, particularly when people are in crisis. And I really do like your approach of the preparedness of preparing people before the crisis hits. So that when the crisis does hit and the hurricane does come through, there's teams and there's a system in place to kind of respond accordingly. And that's another big piece of what you do really again, thinking of the long term sustainability and preparing people and for a longer resilient future is you're really investing in jobs for tomorrow. Maybe you could talk about that. What are some examples of some of the initiatives when it comes to helping people prepare for the jobs of both today but also tomorrow? I mean, we're living in a world where AI is taking over, right? And jobs are changing. The types of jobs that are available that used to be maybe available even a few years ago have gone away. How are you shifting with all the changing environment around us, particularly in the areas of technology?
- [19:06]
B
Yeah, it's one of the most exciting priorities that I'm very excited about as well because preparing people for the jobs of today and tomorrow is one of our biggest priorities because as you said, the future of work is changing fast and we want communities to be prepared. And one of the exciting initiatives that we supported this year, just to give you a glimpse of sort of how our partners are showing up, is a partner of ours called Learning Undefeated. So we came out with a mobile education lab which is a breakout box. And if you've ever done something like an escape room, it's a similar concept that brings hands on manufacturing experience directly to the schools across the U.S. so one of the things that you'll find is that not very many students are excited about the space. And how do you really bring more of that stem Awareness and showcase how technologically advanced and innovative zombies manufacturing spaces can be. So it's more than just a classroom on wheels. The students really get to explore real world career paths through those interactive missions that they go through in this learning undefeated of the breakout box. And not only the students, but also teachers, we provide them with the right skills and the kids that they can bring back to the classrooms so they can incorporate that into their lessons to make sure that just because the student get awareness doesn't mean the teachers are also equipped to be able to give them the right tools and the topics in the counseling. And then also families. How are they gaining access to some of these career resources that are available to them, that connects them back to what's available in the industry and how do we really share this next generation to be able to expose them to the high paying, high quality jobs that are out there. So that's an example of how we're really meeting the students where they are getting them excited about what the future of work really looks like. And we're looking to impact around 20,000 people as a result of this particular intervention for the next generation. So that's one example. The other one, last week actually we were in Decatur, Illinois with Fab foundation, which really focuses on Fab and a boss. I get very nerdy and excited about this route because I'm an eminent engineer turned philanthropist. And to me I'm like, I wish I had this growing up when I was looking at opportunities, but the fact that the kids have this. So Fab foundation, just very quick, it's a digital fabrication technology essentially. They put all of that into a box, the 3D printing, you know, advanced manufacturing solutions. So that's an investment that we're making with them. So kids can really be. Students can really be exposed to that and learn about STEM education and really get hands on with that space. And that's something investing across communities in the US and globally and most recently with Jobs for the Future and their partner of ours in Tucson, Arizona and Athens, Georgia, Ukraine, probably heard this about apprenticeships and how critical that is for students to be able to make that jump from high schools and from community colleges into places where they're able to really get that experience while they're in school so they can kind of see what's available to them. So really looking at dual enrollment apprenticeship degrees, blending classrooms into real life learning experience, that can create that pathway into the vocational and training. So those are all examples of how we're building that community resilience through education and through opportunity and innovation, really kind of getting them excited about it and bringing sort of this technology into their own backyard. So we're kind of demystifying some of the confusion that may be out there on what a good career path could look like, and we redefining those topics.
- [23:12]
A
Well, this is good to have you again on the show for multiple reasons, but not only to talk about what you're doing, but the landscape has changed when it comes to fundraising. You know, in particular the American context. The federal cuts have been pretty drastic. And so therefore a lot of organizations, maybe they have to cut their budget by 10, 20, sometimes 40%. And what does that do for foundations? My guess is. But I want to hear from you. Now there's more pressure on you and that there's more people asking for support, and not just asking for support, but asking for more support than they asked for last year because that federal funding is gone. And now they're going to look to places like Caterpillar foundation, the Walmart foundation, these other foundations that have been very generous in the past, but maybe now they need more of your support. Tell me about how is impacting you. What have you seen on the ground, even with the partners that you work with? How are these funding cuts and just the. I think the fundraising landscape as a whole, the fact that, you know, giving to charities and nonprofits has dropped. How's that impacting organizations and then even you as a foundation?
- [24:12]
B
Yeah, no. With the recent federal funding cuts, it has affected many social impact organizations. And that is an area that we're actively monitoring. The implication for our partners, but where we've been consistent is that our mission hasn't changed and we remain deeply committed to supporting our grantees, you know, whether, you know, in building resilient communities. So that means continuing to invest in the skills and the resources that the people need and centering around the needs of the organization. What this has really allowed us to do is lean in and really collaborate, to listen and understand where we can identify meaningful opportunities with our partners so that the impact and the outcome really remains strong. And I see this as an opportunity really to get creative with the resources that we have, but also understand through collaboration and leveraging each other's, whether it's funding or whether it's even the talents that we're able to provide pro bono sometimes to really help organizations be as effective as they were. But it is an area that we're continuing to monitor, but also continuing to support where and when we can with our organizations. So the work to keep going in those communities and the impact the scene. So more to come on that front I'm sure from an environment standpoint, but really for us it's that continued impact and continued commitment to supporting our partners.
- [25:46]
A
We'll be right back.
- [25:49]
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- [26:28]
I resonate with what you said, that you and your mission at the foundation is the same. So even with external changes, you're still moving forward like you have in the past. You really want to support your grantees like you've always done. Maybe that's another question. I wanted to ask you that for those who are listening and not just for other foundations, but you know, social impact organizations as a whole. What would you pass on as advice when it comes to you found success in creating systemic, sustainable community impact through philanthropy? What things have you learned along the way? What advice would you pass on to other social impact organizations or for that matter, other foundations? That really has been something you have learned that you'd like to pass on?
- [27:08]
B
Yeah, I mean, if I could offer a piece of advice to leaders that are aiming to create sort of that systemic sustainable impact. And that that's one thing that you know, we've been very focused on is to start with a clear purpose. And one of the things that I'm very proud of with the Caterpillar foundation is we're very strategic in how we're looking to make change happen. And if you're able to see that in the communities where you're making an impact and know why that matters and why us being a partner on the ground, you know, how that can make a change or what's the unique value add that we can bring to the table. And it all goes back to starting with that clear purpose of what are we bringing to the table.
- [27:54]
That can increase the impact or be a force multiplier in communities. And to do that, how do we then think about it very systemically so addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms. One of the things that we're learning as we're going, especially in the space of workforce, is really that it's not just important that you're providing training from a skill standpoint or creating curriculums. It also means you're tackling some of the social determinants of, you know, whether there's nutrition or whether it's the right infrastructure, childcare, transportation, access, all of that comes to play. So you're essentially building an ecosystem. And that, that really means you got to think systemically beyond just that one element that you're really trying to see the outcome for. And one of the things that we have been successful in, and we wouldn't have been successful unless we looked at it this way, is that increase of collaboration so across sectors. So it's not just about the private sector, it's about the nonprofit sector, it's about the government, it's about the grassroots efforts. And how do we really convene all of that together in order to really build lasting impact sustainability solution. And you gotta measure, you can't manage what you can't measure. So how do you really measure, how do you tell that story of the impact? So either others can learn from it or we can learn from others. So how do you kind of build that trust and share that story that will inspire action? And most importantly, I'd say it's how are we empowering local voices? And that's always shaped true for us, it's the local community and we have a global strategy, but at the end of the day it's a local implementation. So it's how are we building solutions from the inside and not from outside mandates. And to do all of that, we really need to stay adaptable and agile. If there's anything Post Covid is taught us is we gotta pivot because the world is changing fast, so we gotta be able to pivot and innovate together.
- [29:58]
A
Well, speaking of those organizations on the ground level, a lot of my listeners are full time leading positions of, you know, either they're executive directors of a social impact organization, they're on the board perhaps, or development directors, et cetera. For those folks who are leading organizations or part of a social impact organization that would go to a foundation like the Caterpillar foundation, what should they know from your perspective when it comes to requesting funds from a foundation like your own?
- [30:25]
B
Yeah, I would recommend definitely looking at the strategic alliance that we have. So, you know, I mentioned how we're very clear with our purpose and we have strategic focus areas. So we always look to see how our organizations align to us and what we're hoping to achieve in those communities. So if there's that alignment. It helps us to then have clear performance outcomes that we're looking for. And if they're able to showcase that measurable impact, we spend a lot of time in making sure that programs that we're investing in is sustainable. So even after we're long gone from that community, we want those programs to continue to stay and be fruitful. So how do we really look to design programs with sustainability in mind? And it's not just about numbers either. It is about that authentic collaboration. It is about building trust both ways, and it is about transparency for that long term change. So. So when you're crafting a proposal, make sure it's rooted in that purpose and it's backed by evidence and it's driven by community voices. So I always go back to that to say some of the best solutions from that local level. But make sure that is measurable and impactful. And you should leave space for conversation because we're learning as we're going, so we're always open to learning and evolving together. So how do we do that without always having sort of a fully basic fake solution, but really going at it together with our partners so you can be as effective?
- [31:56]
A
That's super helpful. Well, thank you for that and for my listeners also who want to maybe get to know a little bit more about you or learn about the Caterpillar foundation, where would you send them? Where's the best place for them to learn about that information?
- [32:07]
B
Yeah, so you can definitely follow us on LinkedIn. We have a website as well. You should be able to use any search engine to find how to kill our foundation and our LinkedIn channel, we just launched it last year, so that is a primary place where we constantly share our news and some of the exciting work. So. And of course, if they are tuning into this podcast, then hopefully they'll get a bite or two on what the Caterpillar foundation is doing. But definitely check us out on our website.
- [32:36]
A
Definitely, yeah. And we'll provide a link in the show notes. You can just click on that link and learn more about the foundation itself. And I do want to close with kind of what you started with. You know, that first billion dollars after 1952 that you've given out? It's not a finish line. It's a launch pad. So do you have some ideas of, okay, what's the next billion dollars look like, you know, in the future? What are some of the things you really are excited about now to. To continue to launch into?
- [33:00]
B
We are constantly innovating and that is one thing I love about Caterpillar foundation, but we're going to stay focused on our strategy and looking at workforce future of work, sustainable infrastructure. How can we engage our employees globally in order to harness their passion, but continue to work in that. And I know that work itself is evolving, so we're excited to continue to evolve and work together to make that lasting impact.
- [33:26]
A
Well, it's always fascinating to hear about corporations that have these huge foundations, really, when you think about the total amount of dollars, you know, given. So, again, I encourage my listeners, check out the Caterpillar Foundation. There'll be more information in the show notes. But again, thank you, Asha, for being on the show and just sharing updates and all that you're doing. And, and congratulations again. That's a huge milestone. A billion dollars distributed is a lot of money that you've given out. So well done.
- [33:48]
B
Thank you, Rob. So great to be here.
- [33:50]
A
And for my listeners, thanks for tuning in as always. We'll see you next week. Hey, friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to, like, subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening. And until next time, keep making your world better.
- [34:36]
This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.