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- [00:03]
A
I think we can virtually end poverty in our country and around the world. It's a problem we can solve, a time when we have lots of problems, but it's going to take a big push. We know how to we reduce poverty. We know how to do it. We know how to get back on track. And I think we got to do it. And this book's about how to do it, how people can be effective.
- [00:24]
B
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the Nonprofit Leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All of these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy this show and as together we hear how they are making their world better. Welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast with Rob Harder. I'm Alex Budak. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. I'm a listener just like you. We're all on a leadership journey looking for ways to learn and grow. Each week I look forward to hearing Rob's latest discussion with his guests. I invite you to join us and subscribe. Thanks for listening. Now here's Rob. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm Rob Harder, your host. Okay, today's a topic, poverty alleviation. Now, this conversation, I think, on the one hand, I think most people would say we need to do something about alleviating poverty, not just in the U.S. but in the world. I think the controversy becomes how do we do that? How do we go about alleviating poverty? I think that's where there's a lot of debate happens, right? People can be on different sides of the same issue, and we get into that today. My guest today is David Beckman. He was the president for Bread for the world for 30 years, and now he's doing work globally. And he actually just wrote a book called the Poverty Abolitionists. And he's going to get into that book. I've got some questions for him about the book, and we really dive into some of the things that you may disagree with David on his take. It'll be interesting to see what you think about where he's coming from. But he has spent his life essentially really focused on how do we alleviate poverty, and he's done a lot of research on it. In fact, he'll show and he puts in his book some stats and data that he's done with his research in terms of how we've done in the world and in the US in terms of alleviating poverty. I was surprised. He tells us some good news in many ways that we were making really good progress through 2024, really reducing the amount of poverty. And again, he'll give you more of the stats. But just in the last year and a half, with a lot of the funding cuts that we've seen, particularly in the US Context now, that's actually reversing some of that progress and I'll speak about that as well. So again, we never shy away from difficult topics, but I think this is a really important topic, the one of alleviating poverty. So I'm really glad you've tuned in again. It's a fascinating conversation. Again, my guest, David Beckman. Really glad you've tuned in, as always. And now onto my show and my interview with David. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms and in the business. Well, welcome everybody to the show. I've got David Beckman here with us. Thank you, David, for being on the show today. We're so glad you're here.
- [03:23]
A
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. You know that.
- [03:26]
B
Absolutely. You know, I do this with all my guests. I always like just to start for my listeners sake mostly is tell us a bit about you. Tell us about your journey. How did you get to where you are today? I know you worked for Bread for the World most recently, but you're now, as you mentioned, really reaching a broader constituency, writing a book which we're going to talk about. But yeah, tell us just a little bit about your story.
- [03:46]
A
Well, I'm a pastor and an economist and an activist. I've really had three main jobs in my life. So the first one which is relevant to the audience of your podcast was working at the World bank because I was there during the time when World bank engaged with nonprofits around the world. And I led that effort because the World bank works really closely with governments. As the World bank engaged with nonprofits, many governments also listened to nonprofits in new ways and worked with nonprofits in new ways. And I could see from the point of view of people trying to make government work how important nonprofit advocacy is. So then I moved to Bread for the World. As you know, it's a big faith based organization that organizes churches and individuals to be advocates with their members of Congress on Issues that are important to hungry people in our country and also around the world. And in the years I was there, I was there for 30 years. I mean, as president, I'm still involved, but as president during that time, we were able to contribute significantly to a bipartisan expansion of US International assistance and also improvement in the quality of assistance. And then on the domestic side, we also worked on protecting programs like WIC and snap. There's always a big political push to cut those programs for poor people. And we tried to keep them working and effective. Oh, then the third organization was the alliance to End Hunger. And because Bread for the World is a Christian organization, it was just clear that Christians by themselves aren't going to change US Politics regarding hunger and poverty. So the alliance was set up to help lots of nonprofits and for profit organizations that care about hunger and poverty to get involved and be effective in advocacy. It's still going about 100 organizations and hunger free community coalitions across the country.
- [05:58]
B
I'm impressed that you had 30 years where you really invested in this huge cause of hunger around the world and trying to gather people from all different walks of life to be aware of it and to advocate for it. And then obviously getting, you know, working with politicians and leaders in the state and federal level, that, that's a tough job. And so way to go. For 30 years you hung in there. Well, you mentioned that now you've had the chance now to be able to broaden your reach a bit and reach a lot of people.
- [06:24]
A
I left the staff of Bread for the World five years ago. So since then I. I've taught at several seminaries in a school of public policy and. But I've also been working on the book. It's called Poverty Abolitionists. And it's an opportunity to think more broadly about what we need to do to make progress against poverty. I think we can virtually end poverty in our country and around the world. It's a problem we can solve at a time when we have lots of problems, but it's going to take a big push. And so the Poverty Abolitionist is about what we need to do.
- [06:59]
B
Okay, so, yeah, talk a little bit more about that. What first prompted you to write the book and then how does it differ from some of your previous work?
- [07:06]
A
Well, the last book I published was about the progress we were making against poverty. You know, when I first went to Bread for the World, I remember being told, you know, we don't have to be successful, just faithful, because we weren't expecting to be successful in reducing hunger.
- [07:21]
B
The Bar was already lowered.
- [07:24]
A
But then we realized, I don't know about 1995, 2000, that in fact the world was dramatically reducing poverty and hunger year after year. So all of a sudden, I mean, this weekend really. So that book, the last book I published was about that reduction and was called Exodus from Hunger and it was about how to continue that. But then the last few years, the last number of years have been bumpier progress because of the pandemic and increased violence in the world. We're now moving the wrong direction. So that's the urgency of the book. We know how to. We've reduced poverty. We know how to do it. We know how to get back on track. And I think we got to do it. And this book's about how to do it, how people can be effective. Even now, I think a lot of people feel like, oh my God, now what's happened? And they feel like there's nothing they can do. But there are 10 at least things that we can do at the community level, at the national level, I think at the spiritual level to, to get back on track.
- [08:28]
B
Well, that's interesting. And we're going to ask a few more questions about your book. But I know one of the things, the key theme is not just in general about poverty, but the policies that impact poverty. What would you say some of the current policies are that you believe are having a drastic negative impact on those already struggling with poverty?
- [08:45]
A
Well, in the first month or two of 2025, you may remember that Elon Musk took charge of destroying USAID and virtually ending the US foreign aid program. I'm pretty sure that more than a million people have died because of what they did to US International assistance. Mainly the numbers you can see where people just are dying are people who no longer get assistance for AIDS or malaria and people in humanitarian crises like Gaza or Sudan, they've had to cut back on food aid to Sudan. I think a lot of people are starving. So that was one. I think an obvious one is that the President's big beautiful bill cut more than a trillion dollars from food and health assistance for low income people in the United States. That's a lot of money. What strikes me is people say, oh, churches ought to take care of the poor, but there are 370,000 churches in the country. If everyone would need to come up with $250,000 a year for 10 years in order to fill the gap that's going to be left by that $1.1 trillion that we lost to the big beautiful bill and Then it's not just programs, it's also policies. So, for example, mass deportation is controversial, but there's no question that a lot of hardworking people and their families are getting a lot poorer. Or tariffs. Tariffs are, they're a regressive tax. They raise the costs of things that people consume. Rich people don't consume all their income, but poor people and even middle income people pretty much consume everything that they earn. And so tariffs hit them harder than high income people. So it's policies as well as just assistance programs. They're important too, but that's only part of the story.
- [10:40]
B
Well, it's interesting that we're going into this and I know that some of these we get into situations and topics that can become very controversial for certain people. People have strong opinions on both sides. Right. And when it comes, though, certainly the last year and a half, I've talked to a lot of people on the show that have talked about the federal cuts in the American context has had a direct impact on their nonprofit specifically. And so the point government, when they cut funding, there is real world impact and there's real impact to nonprofits that have been providing in the past, for example, whether it be USAID or these other organizations that depended on some of this federal funding. At the same time, a lot of people I know, I've had other folks talk about we do need to manage our money better and there was a lot of waste. How would you strike that balance where we want to get rid of the waste but not completely cut off funding for those who really desperately need it? Where do you find that balance of trying to do both?
- [11:35]
A
Well, we do need to. I mean, there's a lot of waste in government, there's a lot of waste in business, and there's a lot of waste in the nonprofit sector too, I think. But with government programs, big government programs, one way to get rid of the waste is increase transparency. If you can do things in a way that people can see how many people are being helped or is it working? And also if nonprofits, if they work together with government programs, they can help to make government programs more effective. And then the government needs to, and academic institutions need to audit the programs, evaluate the programs, then we need to keep reforming the programs. So it's a serious issue. I don't, however, think that the federal treasury is losing more money because of people who aren't entirely honest on their taxes then we're losing from people who shouldn't be getting food stamps and are.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah, it is. It's a sticky That's a sticky situation in terms of people have such strong opinions, again, on either side of that. But striking that balance is like critical. And you're right, nonprofits and businesses, they can waste money too. And so I think that's across the board. It's not just only government funding that can be wasteful at times. Well, okay, let's go back to your book then, because you talk about a lot of different things and in the beginning of your book, you show some graphs that really talk about the progress against poverty. And you already kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier. One of your answers. Give us some more context on those graphs. What are they saying to us today? Again, I'm going to encourage my listeners to check out your book. But yeah, tell us a little bit more about the graphs and what context you give for the progress we've made on poverty.
- [13:12]
A
They're my favorite graphs in the world.
- [13:14]
B
Okay, awesome. That's great.
- [13:16]
A
So one of them shows that between in 1990, 4 out of 10 people in the world lived in absolute poverty. Absolute poverty is defined by the World bank, which is basically they don't have enough money to eat, not a healthy diet, just enough calories to keep their bodies energetic. That was 4 in 10 in 1990. In 2024, it had come down to 1 in 10.
- [13:44]
B
Wow. Okay.
- [13:47]
A
So it's in our lifetime, you know, it's in our lifetime that we've had more progress against poverty than any other time in human history. In the U.S. ironically, the progress has been more gradual. But if you there's data back to 1967, the Census Bureau's best measure of US poverty. So it's a more generous measure of poverty than what the World bank uses for Bangladesh. By that measure, in 1967, three in 10Americans were in poverty. As of 2024, it had come down to one in, coincidentally, one in 10 the same as the world. So that got us to 2024. In 2025, we started pushing the wrong direction. The last few years, especially Globe, we lost some of the momentum, but then now we're almost certainly going the wrong direction. So I just think it shows us that we can reduce poverty and that we gotta get on it.
- [14:48]
B
So. Interesting. Well, again, that really leads into your book. You mentioned already there's like 10 effective ways you talk about in your book to restore progress against poverty. Just tell us maybe a couple of the strategies you want to highlight today on the show. And of course, if you get the book, you can find out all 10. But what are some of the most effective strategies that you include in the book?
- [15:06]
A
Well, the first is advocacy. And I think it's really important for nonprofit leaders to have a vision that is bigger than their organization. Nonprofit organizations express values. Often they're things that are not being done enough in society. And so somebody started an organization. People get organized to try to deal with a problem or to meet a need that's not being adequately met without extra effort. But let's say if somebody is part of a nonprofit that works on local improving local libraries or supporting local libraries, I think the vision of that could be bigger. At least it's libraries across the country. And it's the whole issue of libraries that have to take books out of the library because they don't meet some ideological standard. So there are issues. And so I think nonprofit leaders who have a vision that's bigger than their organization, then they should be talking to their city council members. They should be talking to their members of Congress first, most importantly, maybe sharing that vision. So if a member of Congress comes to your food pantry or your food bank, he may be moved by the people he meets there to do more than we're doing now or to do better than we're doing now. And also nonprofits have a grassroots perspective on what the government is doing. If, let's say, the food stamp program isn't working where you live, you're working with people, and people have a hard time applying. It's so complicated in the state of whatever it is in certain state to get food stamps. A lot of people who desperately need it aren't getting it. Or if there's waste and it's clear waste, and you want to call that to your member of Congress's attention, you see it from a different angle than he or she does. So I think advocacy is one thing. Another thing I really want to stress is this year's elections. This is the most important election in my lifetime. Okay.
- [17:20]
B
Why would you say that?
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A
I think that Congressional Republicans really haven't pushed back against the president and they just do what he wants. And I think we really need a Democratic majority in at least one House of Congress. So it's a divided government. And I think a lot of people who voted for Trump and will vote for him again think he sometimes goes, he moves too fast. There are other things. Some of the things are longer term things, changes in our culture and also in our. In our spirituality. I think both for people who are religious and people who are not.
- [18:00]
B
We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations. Well, look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With DonorBox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. That's interesting, Will. And that was going to be my second question really to follow up on that. Curious for you. And you obviously have been in that social impact sphere. You may have been in the charity world, if you will. What role does charity play in philanthropy as a whole, in this whole idea of really shaping the conversation around poverty alleviation and then actually getting it done. Obviously you've done a lot of work with the government and then you have mentioned already you've been in kind of the faith based sphere with some of your work. Is there a unique role that faith based organizations play within the larger philanthropy role? When again comes to poverty alleviation, is there a specific role that you'd recommend most of my listeners to kind of act upon? Because most of my listeners are in the nonprofit world of some level. They're either an executive director or they're a board member. So they're coming from that social impact sector, if you will. So what role do they play, would you say?
- [19:31]
A
Well, I think, I mean, I really appreciate the people who tune into your podcast. They're heroes, they're doing great work. The nonprofit sector clearly does a lot of good work. And on the issues of poverty, human need just, there's a massive amount of effort that goes into, comes through nonprofit channels. I think the things that, that I most appreciate about, about nonprofit work on poverty, it's often personal in a way that government can't be. I mean, businesses also, they provide jobs so they're helping people get out of poverty. But it's not chummy. You know, it's not, it's not necessarily for low income workers. It's not that they're getting a lot of love from that. And I think nonprofits relate to people as individuals so they can do like they can connect kids who are having trouble reading in school with people in the community who care about the kids. So they're there, they're tutoring the kids, but they're also engaging with those children, stitching the community together in that way. So I think that and then the voice of Nonprofits is really important. While I was at Bread for the World, I helped to get the food banks in the country now called Feeding America. I got help to get them more active in advocacy. Catholic Charities, Care, World Vision. And they are really important partners in advocacy. If the head of the food bank or if a group of people who work at a local food bank or a food pantry, if they see a member of Congress about something that they see a program that they think would should be expanded, that is very, very powerful. You know, it's a powerful voice. I think the religious nonprofits are also have an important role partly if they're a loving community, they take care of people. You're coming to us from Utah. You know, the Mormons are especially notable for the way that they take care of the people who are Mormons. So if you're a Mormon and you're having trouble, the church will help you out. And other churches also do that. I mean, that's wonderful. You know, it's not just kind of you come in on Wednesday night and we'll give you a bag of groceries. It's, you know, you come to church on Sunday morning and stay for lunch and then, you know, we'll help you out with your problems in a more serious way than just. Than just what you can do from a food pantry.
- [22:13]
B
I wanted to ask about this because I led an organization recently that for several years that had several food pantries. And I'd get this question every now and then or sometimes just put out as a comment. So I want to get your take on this because I guarantee you've heard something similar to this sentiment. And it goes something like this. People poverty are responsible for their problems and government programs only undermine incentives for work. And so this idea is almost like, don't help them too much. They need to help themselves. Tell me how you responded to that. What was your typical, you know, response back to someone like that, both through maybe your words as well as your actions?
- [22:49]
A
You know, there are cases where one of my sons went through a long period of addiction and it drove him into poverty. And he's a dad. Some people are just sitting around watching TV and waiting to go, then go in and get food stamps. And so it's an issue we need to pay attention to. That debate in Congress has led to reforms in the social safety net. What used to be called Aid for Dependent Children has been. That's pretty much disappeared. And now one of the biggest ways that the government interacts with low income people is tax credits for low income workers. So they're not earning enough to feed their families, but they are working and they get a tax credit that tops up their wages. So it gives them, it exaggerates the incentive to work. And then also at the same, we Also, since about 1990, we've, I think, between the bipartisan debate about these programs has led them to be more focused on children because nobody thinks, you know, a three year old ought to get out, go out and get a job. So child poverty, I think, was cut in half between 1990 and, I don't know, 21 or something like that, according to one study. And I think it's because of reforms that took this concern seriously and have made the programs more focused on children and more aligned with the incentive to work.
- [24:19]
B
Interesting. Okay, so again, you've seen some improvements there. Okay, so you've been working in this area of reducing poverty for more than 50 years now. Just your total. As you look at all of your career, not just bread for the world, how do you keep from getting discouraged? Because this is not an easy job. You've been doing it for a long time. I'm sure you hit lots of opposition. What are you doing or what have you done proactively to keep your positive perspective going strong?
- [24:41]
A
We've been able to make tremendous progress against poverty, and we know it. And for the progress has taught us how to. We know a lot about how to go forward and make further progress. So this is not a hopeless situation. Poverty is a solvable problem, relatively speaking. And then I think the other thing is just religious motivation. I believe in a forgiving God.
- [25:08]
B
Okay, there's that preacher again coming out, huh?
- [25:11]
A
Kind of keeps you going.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah, I love that. I mean, you're exactly right. I've had a lot of people on the show talk about burnout. Burnout is growing in the nonprofit sector. I think it's always been an issue, but there are studies have shown it's getting worse. And a lot of people are just checking out altogether from the nonprofit sector because there are so many challenges and there is a lot of burnout. And so I think that is a real issue. So I think that is a question of how do you keep your mission strong, how do you keep your hope up? How do you keep your passion hot, so to speak, to keep doing what you're doing because it is difficult and I think you've experienced it. I know a lot of people that depended, again, on lots of funding from the federal government, for example, when that got slashed so quickly and so drastically that literally overnight almost transformed what they could do and not for the good. Like they had to cut their budget by 40, 50%, sometimes more. And that's really discouraging. Just that alone, let alone the difficulty of just keeping something going, serving people well, making sure people aren't taking advantage of a situation, but they're actually, you know, getting help in the right ways and all those things. Right. So it is an issue. I think it's an ongoing challenge for people. I'm curious that for. When you led Bread for the World, how did you help your team also keep that same perspective that you had?
- [26:28]
A
Wasn't hard. You know, the kind of people who were. For the first 25 years of bread for the World, people were paid really low wages. And so it started with a group of very, very committed, sacrificial people. During my tenure, the policy of Bread for the World was to pay slightly above average wages. First was just average and then slightly above average wages for other organizations of our size and type. So people didn't come to Bread for the World to get rich. They came because they were really. They cared about the mission and then also doing advocacy. We had some really big wins. And once you see that, oh man, I. I changed the world a little bit. That's highly motivating. So Bread for the World staff just keeps on trucking. They're great even now. They just do great work, effective work, certainly persistent.
- [27:26]
B
Well, you said something earlier, and I thought it was a great statement, that every leader, and I would say probably every staff member really in that same boat, you should have a mission that's bigger than your organization. And I think that's such good advice because I think, yes, sometimes I think when we as organizations, either within the organization, you have a silo effect, or even if as an organization, you can become your own silo and look inward and not look out beyond just what you're doing for your mission, your organization, but have a larger mission than that. I find the organizations that really thrive and grow and collaborate are those that have a mission that's larger than just their one organization. Because you said it well, that there's such big issues, hunger being one of them. We've got to work together. You know, not one organization is going to solve this issue. Right.
- [28:10]
A
The issue is that non profits tend to work on so human need, education, arts and culture, environment, international affairs, some work on. On international thing. But those issues are all interconnected. They're all interconnected. And so I think that our big vision needs to incorporate that whole also shalom, the sense of God's peace, but they all come together. If we can reduce, I think poverty can help us with climate change and environmental problems. It certainly can help us with education. It can reduce the costs of healthcare. One reason why healthcare is so expensive is that we have so many people who are poor and they poverty kills people. Poverty makes people really sick. So making progress against hunger and poverty can contribute to efforts of related non profits in other sectors and vice versa. If people who are working on improving education, they're helping to reduce poverty.
- [29:17]
B
Yeah, I think you're so right. There's so much that's integrated and we definitely end up impacting each other in the nonprofit sector. So. Well, this has been a very interesting conversation. I think my listeners may want to really find out a little bit more about you also find out about your book. So where could you send them for them to find out about both?
- [29:35]
A
The most important thing is to buy the book.
- [29:37]
B
Okay.
- [29:39]
A
So you go to number one thing or Barnes and Noble or one of the other sites. And also I've learned from this in the run up to the publication of this book that it need pre sales give momentum to a book. So if people buy the book in advance of the publication, Amazon gives it more visibility on the website in other ways. The publishing industry favors books that have momentum when they come out of the gate. So if people go to Amazon and look for poverty abolitionists or David Beckman, that would help. And then my website is www.DavidBeckman.net when you're at the website you can see the website, but I'm putting out every other week newsletter and then the newsletter refers to related things that are happening, things I've written, actions that could be taken and bits of wisdom from the book.
- [30:32]
B
Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think I do really appreciate your mission and your heart to alleviate poverty and want to really provide strategies for everybody that can really they can do their own part by learning the strategies you share in your book. Because I think we all have a part to play. And so I appreciate you just bringing that to the fore and being so committed to this mission of alleviating poverty around the world.
- [30:54]
A
And I appreciate what you do. It's great, you know, if you can help nonprofit leaders to be effective, to do their jobs well, to hang in there. Yeah, that's a big contribution to the world.
- [31:05]
B
Well, thank you. It's a good career. Well, thank you again, David. Really appreciate it. And for my listeners I encourage you
- [31:09]
A
to check it out.
- [31:10]
B
This has been a really interesting conversation and as always, thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next week. Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation.