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Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
How Healthy Delegation Reduces Burnout and Builds Sustainable Leadership
00:37:39
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- [00:03]
A
Delegation is not how do I get rid of my work. Delegation is how do I give work to my teammates in a way that builds them up and prepares them for bigger things? How do I give them work in a way that gives them a chance to truly shine? And then how do I step in where I need to step in, keep contact where I need to keep contact, support where I need to support, redirect when it needs to happen, but at the same time allow that work to truly build up the people on the team so that they can go out and do great things and truly shine?
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B
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All of these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better.
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A
Welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast with Rob Harder.
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B
I'm Mike Lee.
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A
I live in Washington, D.C. and I'm a listener just like you. We are all on a leadership journey looking for ways to learn and grow. Each week I look forward to hearing Rob's latest discussion with his guests.
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B
I invite you to join us.
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A
Thanks for listening. Now here's Rob.
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B
Well, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm Rob Harder, your host. I'm so glad you've tuned in today. Today we're going to talk about a topic that impacts all of us as leaders. It's the issue of delegation. Now, delegation for some of you might as well just be a four letter word. And we all struggle as leaders, particularly as you're growing in your leadership skill. Being able to delegate well is skill. And so we're going to talk all about delegation, how to do it well, and also to kind of uncover what is the fear that maybe holds us back from delegating well. And I know the nonprofit sector or the social impact sector, which is primarily the listener, are usually in that sector. And so what I find with the nonprofit sector is that so many of us are mission driven, right? That's the whole goal of what we're trying to do with our nonprofit organization. And even more so when it comes to not wanting to delegate, the fear is that if you delegate, the person may not do that as well as you would. And therefore, the mission may not be met as well as you would do it if you just did on your own. And so you hold back, you don't delegate. Or it could be an issue of control. You fear letting go and letting somebody else do the work that you have been doing up to this point. Because you're so driven to commit to this mission and fulfilling your mission, it's really hard for you to let go. So that fear is something we need to uncover and figure out. How do we overcome that fear? And better, how can we reframe that fear? Because here's the reality. If you and I don't learn to delegate as leaders, not only are we putting a lid on our organization or our company, we're actually setting ourselves up for burnout. The lack of delegation and burnout are really two sides of the same coin. They're so interrelated. And that's what we're going to talk about today with my guest. My guest today is Stefan Feuerstein, and he is an author, he's a leader. He's had lots of experience in the nonprofit sector, in the social impact sphere. He also was named as one of Oprah Winfrey's Super Soul 100 leaders. And he'll talk a little bit about what that means for him. But the majority of what we're going to focus our time on is delegation and how that's so important for every leader. In fact, he's written a book called the ABC Delegation Framework, and it's a really interesting framework that, again, is super practical. So one of the things I think you're going to take away as you listen to this interview with Stefan is that there's some really practical things you can learn as you listen today that you could put into practice tomorrow. And that's one of the goals for this podcast, always has been that whatever I'm providing you through this podcast, hopefully it's very practical and it's something you can apply to your own leadership. That's definitely true for today's interview. Well, as always, thanks so much. Great having you tuning into the show. Now, onto my interview with Stefan. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Well, welcome back to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I have Stefan Feuerstein here on the show. Stefan, thanks first of all, for taking time to be on the show today.
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A
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
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B
Absolutely. You know, I do this with all my guests. I always like to ask the first question is just give us a little bit of background about who you are. Tell us a bit of your story of what got you to the point where you're doing all the good works that we're going to spend time most of this podcast focused on.
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A
So my path in life was somewhat accidental. My plan was investment banking. I went to university to study economics. Thought I had it all figured out, and then I went for a year of volunteering to Honduras. And that just completely changed my. The entire course of my life I was working as a volunteer at a nonprofit there, working with kids. And they just opened me up to a new way of seeing the world and understanding the world and understanding what's important and understanding what isn't. So it was after that time with them that I decided to go back to university, go on my master's degree in international development. And that just started me off on a path of more humanitarian work instead of finance.
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B
I always think it's fascinating what prompts people to go into the social impact sphere. And thank you. That sounds like a very powerful experience and that certainly has carried you on. And we're going to dive into some of the things you've done. In fact, what I'd like to start with is something I think is so relevant to what's going on today in our, our world, and that's your work with orphan kids, particularly with overseeing tens of thousands of unaccompanied migrant youth. So let's talk about that a little bit. Tell me about your experience with that. How did those high stakes realities really fundamentally shape your view of leadership as you really try to assist folks in the worst of situations?
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A
I mean, leadership is leadership. Like if you're, if people are following you, you're a leader. But I think working in the nonprofit world and the humanitarian world, when the mission that what you're working for is something so profound for someone else's life that then leadership takes on a new flavor. You start realizing that if we don't do this, well, what are the consequences? It's not a missed KPI, it's not a. Well, our numbers are off this year. When you hit it, when you actually achieve what you're setting out to do, you see people's lives change for the better. And when you don't, you see them either their lives turn out worse or you see them continue in the precarious situations that they're in. So I guess that working in the humanitarian sector kind of opened my eyes to the importance of leadership on getting others, like getting Those on your team inspiring others on your team to do their best to achieve the mission that you've signed up to. And when you manage that, when you achieve that, when people. When you start seeing your team really doing their best, and then you see the impact it has on the people you're serving, I can't think of many things more rewarding than that.
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B
I agree. I share that. You know, my whole leadership experience has been in the social impact sphere, mostly because of that exact thing of just that sense of reward that, no, you are not just doing a job just to click, check a box or, you know, make a check. You're really trying to make a difference in the world. I really appreciate you sharing that. And again, that just shows in a lot of things you do. Now, let me tell my listeners, if they want you learn a little bit more about Stefan, you'll learn this. But I just want to highlight the fact that you have a very distinctive honor, if you will. You've been named as Oprah Winfrey's Super Soul 100, or to be. You're a part of that Super Soul 100 group. And so this puts you in a larger conversation when it comes to what she talks about as awakened leadership. And I thought for my listeners, you could talk a bit more about that. What do you understand awakened leadership to actually look like when on the ground because you're so involved, like where you are on the ground when it comes to actually helping people, rather than just Simply looking at KPIs on a nice flowchart PowerPoint presentation. Talk about what it's like for you to have awakened leadership and apply that to everyday situations you've seen.
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A
Yeah. So Oprah's definition of awakened leaders was people using their voices and their talents to elevate humanity. And so I think what it boils down to is you can be a leader just kind of charging forwards and trying to do the best and get the highest scores and the best numbers and generate the most income. And all of those things are not necessarily bad. But then you also have people that choose to use their leadership skills to lift others. It's how can I lead people so that everyone will grow? And that can be the people that you're serving. It can be the people that work with you. It can be the people on your team. Like a true leader, you see your team and it's not like, okay, these are the tools that I have to get the job done. You say, this is the team that we have that I am responsible for keeping on course. But that I'm also responsible for building up and making them the best people that they can be. So I think awakened leadership is just being conscious of where you're going and why you're going there, kind of what you've signed up. I think too often we sign up for something and then we just keep on chugging along just because it's what we chose. But to actually stop and say, why am I doing this? You know, where am I going? Is this the direction? I think that's truly being awakened.
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B
Well, and you definitely that perspective on leadership has taken you all over the world. In fact, I learned a little bit more about your experience. You've worked in cultures across Europe, Central America, of course, the U.S. so let's maybe speak to that in terms of lifting people up in these various contexts. Talk about those cross cultural experiences. What have they taught you about delegation, for example, authority, trust? These are some key things that good leaders get, but sometimes other leaders miss these key principles, I would say, of leadership. So talk about that, what your experience has been and what you've learned along the way.
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A
I remember when I first started working in Honduras. So I went there as a volunteer first, and then a few years later, I was just visiting to see the kids that I've worked with, to see the friends I've made. And the man who I had worked for, he was the national director while I was there as a volunteer. He was then the president of the board. And he called me to his office and I thought he was going to ask me, how's life in London? And he said to me, our director's leaving in three months. I'd like you to take over. And I told him, I don't know how to do this. I was 27 years old. I was 250 employees, hundreds of kids. We had a children's home of almost 500 kids. Then many other programs, family reintegration programs, all sorts of different programs that were there. I told him, I don't know how to do that. And he said, you have a good heart. The rest you can learn, and I'll be here to teach you. Wow.
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B
Okay.
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A
I mean, it was a very humbling experience. I got so many things wrong at the beginning. And one of the things I got wrong was also the cultural aspect. Because while cultures are different across different nations and different continents like this, there is, there's, of course, certain things we have in common. We all are all human, after all. So there are certain ways, the ways that we work that are similar. But I'd often Find myself trying to push things in the direction just from where I had come from and the way I understood the world. And thankfully I had some people on my team that would remind me every now and then, no, Stefan, we don't do that here. Stop trying to change our culture.
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B
Interesting.
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A
As a young, arrogant, kind of like, I've got to know it all and I've got to know the direction. Like all those things I was getting wrong at the beginning when people would come to me and good people came to me and taught me that and showed me that, I started realizing that my job was more listening and understanding and processing and empowering. And that certainly helped across the cultural divides.
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B
Yeah, I think that point of listening is so critical. I've had a lot of guests on the show talk about, you know, what are some of the most under appreciated skills of leadership. And I think listening is one of them. And the fact you listened. And I also know just again, from what I've read about you, you're a big believer in delegation. And I'm sure that experience, as a 27 year old, you learned, hey, I need to delegate to people perhaps that are smarter than me, that know more about this, you know, program than me. In fact, you've developed this program called this ABC Delegation Framework. Talk about that a little bit. It sounds simple on the surface, right? Everyone's like, of course I need to delegate. That's what you do as a leader. But you have this kind of easy system. Talk about that, unpack it for us a little bit. You talk about, ask me, brief me or hands off. But simplicity often comes from the hard earned wisdom, I'm sure, the nuances that you learned along the way. So what leadership pain maybe helped cause this framework to emerge for you where you really were able to hone that in.
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A
I mean, I made so many, so many mistakes when I was first started out. I ended up working there for 15 years. I was in Honduras and there were very formative views.
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B
Yeah, 15 years, that's a long time.
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A
Yeah, 15 years.
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B
That's a long time. Yeah. Good for you.
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A
They were beautiful years though. It's a beautiful, beautiful, very complex and very complicated country, but a beautiful people. And it made me feel very, very at home there. So as I was working there, I was trying to figure out, because we had so many different programs all over the country and I was trying to figure out, how do I get people to understand how we work together? Like too often I'd be in meetings and I would, I think to myself, why didn't I know about this, or why are they telling me about this? They don't need me for this, or I wish I had known that before I made that other decision. And so I started trying to think, okay, well, how can we package this into something? A simple way of giving language to how we're going to work together. And the way I ABC delegation is basically, if you imagine going in and sitting down with your boss and having a conversation just about work, and your boss says to you, okay, well, this is your list of things that I want you to do. Go out and do it. If you do anything that I don't like, I'll just tell you to do it differently. But go do, and I'll have my eye on you. Compare that to someone like your boss sitting down with you and saying, okay, this is what we're responsible for, and draws out a little box and he says, this is our mission frame. Everything inside of this frame is what we're responsible for, is what we dedicate our time, our resources, our efforts to anything outside of it that's just not ours. And within that box, there's a box that's yours, and this is yours, just your responsibility. And we call that your mandate frame. And it says to you, this is your responsibility. And within that, there are three categories. There's A, which is do what you want. You don't need me for it. You don't need to inform me. Just. Just work freely. B is do what you want, but then come in and tell me about it. Like. Like, inform me about it. And C is ask me first before you do it. And then they say, okay, so don't worry about it. I will teach you what goes in each of those three categories, and they can change with time as you prove yourself. But if you make a commitment to this mandate frame, to this responsibility, I'll make three commitments to you. The first, that I'll follow up with you in a way that actually helps. The second, that I'll step in and help you resolve any conflict that happens on your team or with other teams. And the third commitment I'll make to you is that I will approach work through the lens of using work to build you up as a professional in everything that we do. Now, that second approach, that's what I tried to make a framework for. That's what I made ABC delegation for, to give managers simple tools and simple language to be able to do exactly that with their teams.
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B
I love that. And let's unpack that a little bit. It sounds like that came through trial and error a little bit. That came through some leadership pain. Anything you want to share about that? That when you've tried that delegation process, when you're still honing that, was there anything that you would want to share that really stood out to say? Oh, I learned from that. It was an inflection point. Okay. Then I tweaked it and applied this to that, and so it got better and better over time. Do you have anything you want to share about that?
- [16:18]
A
I think one of the first that got me to understand the importance of delegation, not from my standpoint, but from the standpoint of those who are working, like, on my team, was having a conversation with our communications officer, like the person who was sending out all the information about the work we were doing in Honduras. And there was a project that I was just. I was very passionate about, and I wanted. It was kind of my baby, and I wanted to deal with it, and I wanted to send out the things. And she came up to me, and in a conversation that she had, she said to me, do you like it when people give you a chance to really prove yourself and to really shine? And I was like, of course I do. And she said to me, please don't take this one from me. And I realized then that delegation is not how do I get rid of my work. Delegation is how do I give work to my teammates in a way that builds them up and prepares them for bigger things? How do I give them work in a way that gives them a chance to truly shine? And then how do I step in where I need to step in, keep contact where I need to keep contact, support where I need to support, redirect when it needs to happen, but at the same time, allow that work to truly build up the people on the team so they can go out and do great things and truly shine. So I think that was the first time where that was the person that really changed how I thought about delegation. Yeah.
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B
Okay. Well, and let's talk about that a little bit more, because I think it is. It's such a critical skill for every leader to really do well. Not just to abdicate, but actually delegate. Why do leaders have such a hard time doing it? And then if delegation's not done well in an organization, you found that that typically is a signal or a symbol that there's something underneath the culture of that organization, potentially, or that leader specifically, that's off. And that. That the inability to delegate maybe is a sign that there's something else going on. Tell me more about what You've experienced with this delegation when people cannot do it well.
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A
So I hear many people kind of talk about delegation as though it's, you know, you have management and leadership and then delegation is just something you do. And I see it very differently. I would say there are very few things that I can think of as a manager or even as a leader of a team. If you have any people that you're responsible for or people who you're the boss of, I can think of very few things that managers would do with their team that are not delegation related. I mean, and like, for example, talk to people you know and say, who's the worst boss you ever had and why? And they'll tell you, well, this person who just always on my back just like involved in everything. I never knew what I could do, just second guessing everything that I did. And that's micromanagement. And what is micromanagement? A failure to delegate? No. Well, they never check in on me. I have no idea if I'm doing the right thing. I have no idea where they are, what they want, what they think. I mean, that's basically just a failure to support the work that your team is doing. That's also a delegation issue. Whether someone is trying to push things through just by intimidation, it's how they give work to their people. And that's how I see delegation as being an integral part of everything that is management and everything that is leadership. So if you don't get the delegation part right, then it's kind of hard to get all the rest of it right.
- [19:49]
B
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A
Yeah.
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B
There's no way you can grow an organization or scale an organization if you can't delegate. Well, because, you know, one person can only do so much. So maybe let's flip that around then. On the healthy side, what does healthy delegation look like? Could you describe that for our listeners? When a leader's doing it? Well, what exactly does healthy delegation look like?
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A
Well, I would say healthy delegation means that there's a clear direction. We all know what we're working for, like where we're working towards. We all know what the boundaries of our responsibility are within that. And then we also, within our responsibility, know what the boundaries of our authority are. So knowing the direction, knowing what piece is mine, and then knowing how much authority I have over that, that is mine. Like where I need to get my boss involved, where I need to inform them, where I can do whatever I want. Like an organization with healthy delegation, that's what you see. But then what you feel is that people feel like I'm learning through work. I'm being given a moment, like stretch opportunities. I'm being given more responsibility, I'm being given a chat, I'm being checked in with regularly. Like not suffocating way, but just very, very brief, simple. And we have tools for that of exactly how to do it. But I feel like my boss is checking in with me. They know what I'm doing and they're also seeing my work and figuring out, okay, what do you want more of? What can you do more of? What do you need help with? What do you need more support with? Like, what is your goal further down the line and how can I give you work now that will prepare you for that later? An organization with healthy delegation has that sense of possibility within the team. And I think that's one of the things that I most enjoy. I love working in teams where I feel like I can make a difference and where I can grow and I can shine. And that's why now I'm working to help other organizations create that.
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B
Well, I think about my podcast primarily is focused on the nonprofit and social impact sector, although leadership is leadership, like you said, so it applies to any context, but within, I think the mission driven sector, if you will. I think when it comes to delegation and why leaders have a hard time letting go is number one. They feel like, well, what if we don't really accomplish the mission we're here to do? What if I delegate this and it's not done as well as I could do it, or I lose control of the ability to make sure our mission is met? I think those are some of the things that fulfill fear comes through in leaders and that can often keep you back from delegating in a healthy way like you just described. So how do you help leaders overcome that fear? Maybe reframe that fear?
- [23:10]
A
Well, I'd encourage them. Like when I. When I talk to managers who struggle to delegate and it's very common, like the fear of saying, I Don't want to hand this off, because what if they get it wrong? Is. Is a very real one, and it's an understandable one. If you didn't have any of that fear, I mean, then maybe you shouldn't have the responsibility that you have.
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B
Yeah, right. Good point. Yeah.
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A
Is to understand that, first of all, you can't do everything. If you think you can do everything, then you're really not trying to do enough. Because if you have a team, you should be able to, and you have an intention to grow and do more in the future. You have to cultivate new leaders who are coming through. You have to teach people how to do bigger and better and greater things as we're going along or give them the opportunity to learn it themselves. So, first of all, I would say if you want to grow, you have to stop thinking like that, because if it's all mine, it's all mine, it's all mine, then you're putting the weight of the entire mission and the entire growth of your organization on your shoulders, which is, number one, not healthy. Number two, somewhat arrogant. Right. You know, and completely unfair to the rest of your team. And then I would also tell them that if you're not doing it, like, I mean, I said, in some organizations where I've worked with the managers, I've heard people say, you know, well, no, but they're in that scene, he's a great manager or she's a great manager, they struggle to delegate a little bit, but, you know, but they're doing a good job. And I would say if someone's struggling to delegate, they are expensive because the manager is the one who is inspiring the team. The manager. There are all sorts of studies been made across the nonprofit world and the business world, tying how much a manager influences team engagement and how quickly people leave the jobs and how quickly people become disengaged and everything, and how much of that rests squarely on the shoulders of the manager, their direct manager. So if people don't learn to give work to the team and to grow them, especially if they have younger generations working for them, then they're basically responsible for the disengagement that is happening there. And if managers start to understand that and realize that and understand the weight of not being fair to your team and helping them grow, then usually they realize that something needs to change. But if you're. I mean, if you're. I fully understand it. When you have something important in the nonprofit world, you know, it's something that's so driven by. By you know by passion and belief and conviction and, and. And the nonprofit world that attracts so many of these idealists who want to go and they want to make it, and, and only 100% is good enough. And I don't want to drop the ball on any of it. And it's, it is a hard sell sometimes to say, let go of some of it. But if you have a system for it and a framework for it, and you say, well, you don't need to let go of all of it now, but let's define the parts that you can let go of. Like, let's say the first parts where you know you can let go of them, but you'll still be informed. You know, things that you just want to know about, just to check in or whatever, or things that you need to know about because they affect other areas or whatever. But define those three areas, you start realizing that there is more and more that you can let go of. And if you have those categories and you have those labels for it and you're able to have conversations about it and tell someone, you know what, you've been informing me about this for the past three months. You're doing an outstanding job. You're just consistently just nailing it, like getting it completely right. You don't need to inform me about that anymore. Let's just move that to a. Like, having that language and being able to do that allows you to also let go gradually, kind of incrementally, while still always staying connected to the pieces that you need to be connected to.
- [27:07]
B
What you're saying is so important. You know, I'm a coaching consultant. I work with leaders all the time. And one of the things that often people will hire me to do is help them to grow or scale their organization, whether it be nonprofit business, et cetera. And what you're saying is so right, because if you're going to scale an organization, and again, we're primarily talking about the nonprofit sector, you have to change as a leader, right? You have to do certain things differently. You can't keep doing the same things you've been doing up to this point if you want to continue to scale your organization and grow it. So where do you feel like leaders get stuck the most when it comes to trying to scale themselves or scale their organization, and then they just get stuck and they can't move beyond it. Where do you see that happening? And then what suggestions do you have for leaders that are feeling stuck right now?
- [27:52]
A
Having tools, like simple tools to simplify your life always helps. Like when you're stuck. Often it's because, you know, I, at least in the experience, my experience, my personal experience and my experience talking with managers that I've worked with, a lot of the people who are stuck, it's just because they're not even sure how to grab the issue. Like, there's too much going on. They're overwhelmed. They don't know. Like, things just aren't right and everything is just not okay. And, you know, there's too much going on and I don't know how to do it all and this, that and the other. And then sometimes it's like, wait, wait, just stop for a minute and let's just figure out. Let's break this into pieces. Let's figure out what we're going to focus on. Okay, is it a defining responsibility issue? Is it a defining authority issue? Is it how you follow up and just some simple tools on how to follow up with people so that you can stay connected to the work and so that they know what they need to inform you about? Is it that there's a conflict and you need some tools to figure out how to manage that and to define what kind of conflict is going on and then know, okay, if it's this kind of conflict, then this is a tool I can use to help with that situation? Or is it an issue where you're kind of. You're looking at your team, you feel like you don't really have a succession pipeline. You're not really sure how to help your team. Some of them are getting frustrated. They're saying that they want to leave, they want to go and do bigger things. You want them to stay, but you're not sure how to do it. So it's like all of those things kind of come together and cause frustration and to have language for breaking it into pieces and then saying, well, let's look at this now, let's look at this one part, and let's make some practical, not philosophical, kind of, this is what the world could look like, but some practical tools of you can use this to make this part better, and you can use this to make this part better. And that sense of being overwhelmed in that sense of this is too big for me, which we so often feel like when you have tools to grab it with, it's not as scary anymore.
- [29:53]
B
Right? Right. Well, this is such an important topic, and I feel like another issue that, again, I've talked a lot on my show about is burnout, and particularly in the nonprofit social impact sector. It's high. It's kind of everywhere, I feel like. And delegation burnout go hand in hand. Right. They go together. Your inability to delegate really leads to burnout. So maybe talk about that. How have you found delegation practically not, you know, helping the organization grow, but actually protects people from burning out. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, the nonprofit world, I love the nonprofit world. I mean, that's what my. In my professional career, really much of it was spent in the nonprofit world. And there's. There's almost all of it I love and there's some parts of it that are somewhat challenging at times. But I think it's because of. It's this, this. It's a weird mix of things in the nonprofit world because it's kind of. You're trying to marry this, the world of passion, but then somehow it depends on the world of finance. And so you have to kind of figure out how to bring those things together. And then you got all these idealists and you bring them together into a group to do a shared mission. But they are still idealists and they still do have their ideas of how exactly it works. There's all this. And a lot of that friction is actually good. A lot of that conflict. As long as it's constructive conflict, it's like, no, why don't we do it this way? Or we could be even better if we did it this way and all those kind of things. If it's not, then it can be terrible. But in the nonprofit world, also, that I've seen burnout happen a lot there, just also because it's like you're working in something that you care about profoundly. When I was working with kids, it was people who wanted to work to make the lives of orphaned and abandoned children better. And when we got it wrong, it hurt. It hurt the kids and it hurt us to feel that we failed. And the failures that we saw, they were soul destroying. So it's kind of. We carry a lot and sometimes because we also get confused about what we're capable of and we think that we're just that savior syndrome or hero syndrome, whatever you want to call it, we want to go in there and we want to save it, we want to do it, we want to get it right. But that passion comes with a price tag when you don't do things well. And one of the biggest price tags on it is burnout. And I think again, it boils back to having practical tools, because burnout, most burnout comes from things that are on your plate that you're not doing anything about because you don't get to them and you just don't have the time for it. And they sit there in the back of your mind and just gnaw at you and tell you, well, what about this? What about this? But then you're so caught up in the everyday work that which is work you love, but you're investing so much time in it and just so much energy. But then you still have that voice in the back that's kind of gnawing on you. And at least that's how I experience burnout. So I would say when that happens, being able to step in and tell people, okay, let's divide up your responsibility. Let's, let's put it in a frame. Let's figure it out. Let's figure out what, like what is really yours? What can you pass off to others? Having shared language where you can have a conversation with someone and they can tell you, my mandate frame is way too big. I either need more people or I need a smaller mandate frame. But like having those, those words for it instead of just whining about work as it's sometimes perceived by bosses. I think that's important.
- [33:23]
B
Well, for my listeners, I'm guessing there's a lot of leaders listening right now that are feeling burnt out, that are feeling overwhelmed, or if they're honest, maybe they're slipping into some micromanaging ways in their leadership. What suggestions would you have for them today for this week that they actually one step they could take this week, applying your ABC delegation framework that would really help them start leading differently. What would you say to them?
- [33:46]
A
I would say first of all, just kind of sit down and figure out if it is clear to you what each of the people that work on your team is responsible for. Like even just it sounds like a silly, silly thing to do. Like it should be obvious, but when you actually start doing it, you realize it isn't that obvious. I mean really, what is their responsibility? Like if you had to take you're the box of everything that you're responsible for. If you're the CEO, then it'll be the mission frame is your mandate frame. If you're head of a department, you'll have your mandate frame within your mandate frame. You'll have your people on your team that work for you. Divide up your responsibility among each of them. Just write down what exactly they are responsible for and then you can start going into each of those and saying, okay, when it comes to this, when would I want to be informed about it? Is this something that I need to know? If I talk to the board, I'd like to know it. If I talk to another department, this could influence a decision that I make somewhere else. Or this is just something that I'm keeping tabs on, so I want to know about it. Are there things that you're getting informed of that you really don't need to be involved? And the simple fact you're involved in them is actually taking away responsibility from these people who want responsibility and want to grow. Define. Just kind of pencil it down for yourself. And if you realize that things aren't clear, then you have to accept that unless there is clarity in those things, you cannot grow as a team and you cannot help those people grow.
- [35:25]
B
Okay, well, I love this conversation because it's so practical. So for my listeners who are hearing this, they're like, I want to learn a little bit more about Stefan and some of the work you've done. Maybe even, you know, get more of this information about your framework. Where would you send them? How best can they connect with you?
- [35:39]
A
So the best ways would be at www.abcdelegation.com or I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me there. But that's where you can find all the information. And of course, the book ABC Delegation, the Manager's Guide to Effective Delegation. You can get that on Amazon and other booksellers. So have a look. And it's a very practical guide that'll just help people to have tools to simplify the process of kind of demystify the whole idea of delegation. Just realize that it is actually a pretty simple thing. It's hard to do, but it's a simple thing to do.
- [36:11]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good description of that. Again, just thanks for the practicality of what you're offering to the nonprofit sector with your book and with this framework, because it is. It's something you can put into practice tomorrow. And so, my listeners, I encourage you, as you're listening to Stefan, by the way, I'll put a bunch of, you know, links in the show notes. You can find a little bit more information about this framework and about Stefan himself, but you can make a difference. This week. You could actually make some changes. Just apply some of the things that Stefan just shared, and you'll begin to lead differently. And particularly if you're feeling burnt out, if you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, I encourage you to begin doing it now, sooner than later, right before you actually burn out completely. So, again, Stefan, thank you so much for just jumping on the show and sharing your insights with us today.
- [36:53]
A
Thank you Rav. Really appreciate it.
- [36:55]
B
Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find us other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by Donorbox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.