← Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
How Leaders Navigate Through Change While Staying True to the Mission
00:33:00
Loading summary
Transcript38 lines
- [00:03]
A
If you pair this clarity of your purpose and mission with a more adaptive execution rather than trying to over plan and over regulate, if you lead with values, if you have transparency, if you let people create their own environment, their own ideas stimulated by their own contribution, then if you can do that, even when conditions change, people still know what the end goal is and they still feel motivated and excited.
- [00:31]
B
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All of these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm Rob Harder, your host. Thanks so much for tuning in today. So glad to have you here. And I just want to say it's so fun to see this growing group of people that are tuning in every week to the show. Thank you so much. Welcome. We're so glad you're here. I also always like hearing from you. So if there's an episode that really had an impact on you or your organization, let us know. Know, drop us an email. Or if you have a suggestion of a guest you think would be perfect for the show or you yourself would like to be on the show, please let us know. You can email me@robharter.com again, it's robharter.com now, we can't accommodate every single suggestion, unfortunately, but we always are open to new ideas, to new leaders, speakers, people that are really making a difference in their world. We'd love to hear from you. So again, you can email me with your suggestion. All right. Well, today, so the topic is really, we're going to focus a lot on project management. But there's so many pieces to project management. In fact, as things continue to grow and change and a lot of roles are being morphed and changing in our context, particularly the social impact and nonprofit sector, project management looks different. And so what we're going to talk about today is we're actually bringing on the show the leader of one of the largest project management organizations in the country. His name's Pierre Lehmann. And, and Pierre's going to talk all about how do you really begin to implement core project management skills. How do you really implement things like planning, communication, risk management at an effective level? He also talks about how to integrate AI and new technology without having that shiny object syndrome right, where there's the shiny new technology tool that you want to do, or you as a leader or your organization keeps chasing after the latest shiny object, how to avoid that, but at the same time integrate proper AI tools and technology in order to really improve some efficiency and effectiveness with your organization. As always, it's a really fascinating conversation. I think you'll learn a lot about the Project Management Institute and Pierre shares some great insights today. So as always, thanks for tuning in. So glad you're here. Now onto the show.
- [03:11]
A
Welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast with Rob Harder. I'm Lena Larew, based currently in Mexico, and I'm a listener just like you who cares about the nonprofit world and the people leading it. If you're looking to learn and grow as a nonprofit leader, you're in the right place. Thanks for listening. Now here's Rob.
- [03:32]
B
This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox. DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Well, welcome back everybody to the show today. So my guest, Pierre Lehman. Pierre, thanks so much for being here. Really glad you've taken time to share a bit about your insights and all the work you're doing. So thank you for being on the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast.
- [03:52]
A
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [03:54]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I always like to start each show just giving my guests an opportunity to talk a little bit about their story, how you got to where you are, how you got involved with mission driven work. And then specifically we're going to get into the Project Management Institute or pmi, but maybe just tell a bit of your story to start with.
- [04:12]
A
Yeah, you know, I had a career working across different sectors, always in the knowledge economy though multiple geographies, countries, very different governance systems. I work for listed companies, private equity companies, family owned companies, and nonprofit. It's actually not my first nonprofit, but my second. So in the end, all have their pros and cons and stuff that you love, stuff that you like less. But what I've learned is that what excites me the most is what you build, what you create, the teams you assemble, the growth you can generate. And really I take a job when I feel I can add value, however it is defined. So have discussions with the board, see what they want to accomplish. And if I feel that my experience, my energy can bring something, you know, then I'm interested. I had Like I said, an experience in nonprofit before, I liked supporting a profession. At the time I was supporting a profession of performers, right? So actors, singers, people like that, musicians. And I really enjoy the fact that the impact in that case is truly on people, not just on money and shareholders, which is nice too. But impact on people is really interesting. And at pmi, in fact, we have both, right? We have a very strong community, about 40 million people that we served, professionals that we served in the world. And it's also a global business. You know, we don't raise money. We have a business model that generates its own resources through our products and services. So I feel like I got best of both world in a way.
- [05:45]
B
Well, excellent. Well, and I'm going to talk about PMI here a little bit more. But you're obviously very committed to mission driven organizations, work obviously a lot with nonprofits, talk about how they can stay anchored in purpose during seasons of rapid change and uncertainty. Because I think we're certainly living in a world right now that feels like there's lots of change and there's lots of uncertainty. So have you stayed anchored in your role?
- [06:08]
A
Well, first of all, you have to have a clear purpose. It's true for any company, any organization. But it's particularly true when you work in a nonprofit sector because you usually have volunteers, people who give their time, they're not your employees. But still you need to lead them and motivate them and give some sort of a sense, a direction that they feel is compelling to them. Once you have that, in a way it makes it easier because people are here just because they want to be there and they love the mission, they love the goal. So if you pair this clarity of your purpose and mission with a more adaptive execution, rather than trying to over plan and over regulate, if you lead with values, if you have transparency, if you let people create their own environment, their own ideas, be stimulated by their own contribution, then if you, if you can do that, even when conditions change, people still know what the end goal is and they still feel motivated and excited. And actually, in a way, it motivates them even more because they have to contribute to find solutions to help us achieve our end goals. I would also add that many nonprofits are quite complex because of the structures we have. And this complexity in a way helps with resilience. Any resilience system is quite complex in the nature. And it's true that companies that are overly simplified with the purpose of being super efficient and generate as much profit as possible sometimes are also very fragile and so we don't have that.
- [07:44]
B
That's a great point. Well, and another big piece of leading a mission driven organization, it's important to create urgency at some level. Now, you don't want to manufacture it and you don't want to create panic or try to push so hard your team. Because you're trying to go after this mission, you create bur in the process. But how do you find that balance between creating genuine urgency because the mission, often in a nonprofit world, you're working with issues and people that are right on the margins. They're very difficult issues, whether it be food insecurity, say, housing affordability, things like that. Where the issues are urgent, how do you not push it so far where it becomes too much of a panic button hit and. Or create burnout with your team?
- [08:23]
A
You know, in the first place, I think you're right to say that even if you have a clear goal, a clear end point or game, it doesn't mean that people feel any sense of urgency. So you still have to create the motion, the momentum at the level of speed that you feel is necessary. My advice and I had that discussion actually with the BCG not so long ago because they have in their bureau practice a way to force you to create a narrative that is based on one of three things. So either you explain the why of the change saying that, or arguing that if you don't, then you're doomed. Right? So it's the survival effect or it's just about fitness, right? You want to constantly become better or you have a very transformed vision that you can express and that is compelling enough for people to feel so excited that they will create a lot of momentum. And you sort of have to choose. I mean, you can't change all the time, right? I mean, you can change maybe one time. So for instance, when you join a company as a CEO, it's kind of normal to set a sort of vision. Then when it is done, it's better if you don't change too much. And maybe you choose then either the survival mode or the fitness mode, like one of the two, to get people to understand why some momentum has to happen and why pace is important as well. Again, if your team's involved in the parameters of the execution, like the scope, the budget, the schedule, and you negotiate that with them. If you have clarity on governance and people don't feel like every time we make a progress, we don't know what is the next step, we don't know where to go. If you share success on small increments and also if you think about increasing, if you have mechanisms to increase the sense of job security so people don't feel that the transformation means that they will lose their jobs or lose their status or that there are no other opportunities for them, then if you have all of that together, then it's going to help you. But, you know, sometimes not everybody can take the same pace, right? And you have to also recognize that and work with people or create a culture where people who like movement work with you.
- [10:28]
B
Well, okay, so within the social impact sphere, rules are changing and a lot of traditional ways of doing things are continuing to change and evolve. One of those is with the area of project manager roles. In fact, you're a big believer that a core project management skills, if you want to call it that, are really a essential now more than just being a project manager and having that role or that title. So why is that? What has changed in the nonprofit world or what has changed in the social impact sphere that you feel like that's really important, that core project management skill that you have, or the skills that come with that are even more important than just the title or the role?
- [11:02]
A
Most strategic work today, whether you're a nonprofit or a business, is about transformation, right? Most CEOs have a transformation mandate. It's very rare that you are recruited or appointed by your board. Without a transformation agenda. Business as usual doesn't work anymore. That much I see this with nonprofit as well. Just like everybody else, the world is changing, people's expectations are changing. Funding mechanisms are also based on an agenda that is compelling. And usually that agenda includes some transformation. So if you are focused on transformation, growth and innovation, then you're focused on projects. Because all of that is project based. Nothing will happen unless you have projects. A project takes you from a state A to A state B, and sometimes even C and D and E down the road. And so that is what projects are about. And a strong execution is often what makes the difference between good intentions and real impact. So project management skills, by definition, almost translate ambition into outcomes. And that's regardless of your job title. You don't have to be a project manager, of course. We do focus on project professionals, people who do this as a career, right? Because some of that, if you want to manage, especially if you want to manage very complex projects, you need to learn the rope and gain the experience and interact with other people who do the same as in any profession. But project management skills are important for everyone to have, including CEOs, by the way, because if they're Terrible project managers, then there's a chance that transformation is not going to happen very successfully. And they might have the best intentions in the world, the most compelling vision, but it's not going to be brought to life.
- [12:43]
B
No, you're so right on that. All those points when it comes to then specific project management capabilities, maybe like planning, communication, risk management, you've mentioned a few of them. Are there a few that you feel like really most directly improve impact when it comes to mission driven organizations?
- [12:58]
A
Yeah, I think if you're a mission driven organization, the mission outcomes matter more than the activity. So it's very important that you are focused on this end goal and never forget or lose sight of that. And it's easy to lose sight of that because we get bogged down by processes and tasks and things that need to happen because at one point we decided that this was the way of doing things. But you always have to tie back everything to mission outcomes and, and so prioritization, prioritization, resource allocation, planning, all of that has to be tied back to your mission outcomes and forget about the activities themselves. Very important of course are stakeholders relationships when it comes to non mission driven organizations. Because in the end you serve someone, you serve a community, you serve people usually it's complex. You have multiple stakeholders, they have different views of what success looks like. Success is not as simple as a share price that goes up. Right. So you gotta live with this and build trust, you know, with boards, with funders, with communities, with all the people involved. We do say, to be honest, that projects are, and we've measured that in our research, that the main, the most important criteria for any project to succeed, whether in a nonprofit context or not, is actually sustainability, having sustainability goals or sustainable goals goals so that people understand what is the long term benefit of the project beyond the short term ROI calculation business case. Right. So that is really important. And focusing on sustainability will help you a lot when it comes to be successful. And so if you think about project management capabilities that are more and more increasingly important, especially for mission driven organizations, the ability to embed sustainable practices, define sustainable goals, focus every rally, everyone around these goals is critical.
- [14:51]
B
We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With DonorBox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly Fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. Okay, so I've had a lot of people on my show talk about AI new technology, how it's improving their organization. But it's also, there's a lot of barriers, mostly fear. Integrating AI, integrating new technology. There's just a lot of concern about how best can I do that. You're right in the middle of that. You've been bringing more of the AI and technology tools into your work. So talk about that. How can leaders integrate AI new technology into their organizations while still leading with empathy and centering people first decisions.
- [16:00]
A
You said it all. There's a lot of fear and that requires empathy. You have to recognize people's anxiety. The anxiety could be indeed that they feel this is too much for me. It's like sometimes you don't want to embrace a new technology because you feel scared by it. You feel, I don't know if I can master that. It's not that hard. It's just a matter of trying. It's actually easier than anything I've seen before. But you have to recognize the anxiety. Also in terms of job security, if people feel that this is going to come and replace my job, so why would I be the one digging my own grave? If this is what happens, then you won't get very far. Right? So people will pretend, but they will not actually scale anything. They won't really do it. So it's very important that you clarify objectives. You clarify objectives of what you're trying to do here, but also that you put yourself in the shoes of people. So if and most likely they will have some anxiety about job security, you have to address it upfront and explain how we're going to use all the gains in productivity that we. We're fine, right? What is it going to mean for you and us? Maybe guarantee that at pmi, I made a very simple decision. There is no such thing as people losing their jobs because we reorganized. That doesn't happen. So it could be for performance reasons. That's different. But if you, for any reason, your job gets automated or we reorganize or the change in our structure. If you're a reasonable performer and not say you're high performer, just a reasonable performer, then you're safe. You will have other opportunities and we're committed to that. And then there's the whole familiarization. You're scared about what you don't know. So you have to Invest in adoption, experimentation, skills development, building confidence in your teams and people. That matters more than any speech. We rolled out Microsoft Copilot a month ago to all our employees. It's an investment, but we feel it's important that everybody tries, even if it's little things like rewriting your emails. You start like this and then you get a little more interested. And we have those mechanisms in place where people can share experiences, stuff that they've done, experiments that they've made, and hopefully that's going to help. Right? And in the end, we have to use AI as a lever of efficiency, but it's not the leadership substitute. Right? We will have to keep human accountability for judgment, for ethics, for outcomes. This is not going away. Maybe it will take you outside of your comfort zone because you have to maybe lead more than execute tasks, focus more on the mission than focusing on the process. But there will always be room for judgment, ethics, outcomes, accountability.
- [18:38]
B
I like what you said, that AI is not a leadership substitute. Leadership is still leadership, and AI can only do so much for your organization. So that's a great perspective. Another thing I know, I found when it comes to technology, you get into this shiny object object syndrome. In other words, you see the new shiny object, like, oh, that looks great, let's do that technology. Or no, let's do that technology. And that could really cause people to go off and actually do mission drift in their organization because they're so excited about whatever new technology is coming. You are big into putting guardrails around an organization, around leaders, so that you don't have that shiny object syndrome. Talk about that. What are the key guardrails in your mind to help make sure leaders and organizations stay focused on their mission and their values.
- [19:19]
A
So it's interesting because in fact, if you want to put too many galleries, what's going to happen is the people will experiment on the side and it's going to be worse. In a way, it's like you remember at the time when Dropbox was not allowed by IT teams, so people were just using on the side. That's how it works, right? So people tend to use tools on the side if their organization doesn't allow them to experiment. I feel the shiny object syndrome right now with AI, it's inevitable. Things change so much and so fast. So one day you feel cloud is great, and then the next day, well, maybe copilot is better. And then you realize, well, it depends maybe on what I'm trying to do. But then do we want to have all these tools at the Same time, how do we organize that? We all face the same problem, right? I think again, if you are very clear with the direction, why do you do that? In our case, we even started with our products and services before we actually pushed in implementation internally. So we develop courses about AI, how to apply AI to project management. We develop project certification and project management certifications. How to manage an AI transformation project. We developed a platform that project professionals use AI based in a safe environment where all our knowledge is there limits, hallucination. There are specific agents that help project professionals do their job. So we started with putting this to the market before we even organized the way we would adopt AI internally. Right? And so now that we're pushing more internally, people are sort of culturally ready in a way because we've already talked about it so much and we've developed so many products around that that it almost sounds like a no brainer that we have to implement that internally. Not to say that we're not still a little bit hesitating. By the way, I'm actually launching a project right now to re clarify our goals. What do we do with AI? What are the tools available? How do we do it? With whom? Which consultants do we use? So it doesn't eliminate the need for a roadmap, but finding this balance. A little bit of experimentation, a little bit of outside focus, a little bit of internal focus. At times it's playing by ear, a little bit. Being agile about it, I feel is the best way to do it. Now internally, of course, we've started to use it a lot in customer service like everybody else. Translation, that's a big topic for us, of course, because we produce content in multiple languages and we are also going to increasingly use it to transform the way people learn. Right. And get ready for exams or learn new skills. It's not going to be of course, as it used to be. And I feel that an organization like PMI has the flexibility and the resources to do it much faster than any academic institution. For instance.
- [22:00]
B
Well, you mentioned translation and it is true that in your experience with leadership, you've worked with a lot of different cultures, a lot of different regions of the world. Talk about maybe some of the biggest leadership lessons that you've learned along the way. Like are there certain things you've learned that have helped shape the way you view change, for example, and just how you lead teams.
- [22:17]
A
The problem is communication has to be consistent, right? So it's very difficult to as a. For me to communicate is totally different way when I'm in Asia. And when I'm in the US or when I'm in Europe. So you really have to make sure that your purpose doesn't have boundaries. In a way, it applies to everyone, it's compelling to everyone, communicate around that. And then, yes, you can very limit your message when you go visit some countries. Right. So when I do that, of course, I don't speak exactly in the same way. I make sure I customize a bit. My speeches, my narrative to the reality, local reality sticking using local examples. You want to make sure this happens, but you also want to rely on how, on your local teams to make sure that the messages land better, depending on the culture, local culture, or local history or context. And you have to trust your local managers to be good buffers between the general message, the direction we're taking, and how you communicate that locally. It is very important also to have this mentality that you don't want to eradicate differences, you want to leverage them. You want to leverage the fact that people are different, have different cultures. It adds complexity. But again, more complexity may help you with more resilience as well down the road. If you try to eradicate differences on behalf of centrifugation and efficiency, then you may end up losing the opportunity to leverage all these talents and energies that exist worldwide. And for us, we operate in 200 countries. We serve a community that is really global, all sectors. It's not just the countries. When you work for the government in the US it's quite different than when you work for OpenAI. Different cultures, different mentality, different ways of thinking even. And so, as we always say, provide support for most projects most of the time.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah. So you found really communication, some of the key things, not to eradicate difference, but really to leverage differences in order to foster a better team environment. So some of the things you've learned along the way. Sounds like.
- [24:14]
A
That's right.
- [24:15]
B
Love that. One of the things that nonprofits typically are good at, not all nonprofits, but I think one of the things nonprofits try to strive for is to be nimble, to be agile, to be able to shift and change quickly when the conditions around them are changing. How can nonprofit leaders and people that are listening to this show be more agile in their ways of working, whether it be sprints, rapid feedback, continuous improvement, or some of the terms you often talk about, but at the same time not drift so much away and so be so nimble that they lose their core mission. How do they find that balance, again, about being flexible, but staying true to what their mission really is? All about.
- [24:51]
A
Yeah. So you mentioned some techniques, right, that pertain more to Agile without being technical with Agile with a capital A. So that's mostly derived from the 25 years ago the Manifesto for Agile Software Development. Right. So that actually revolutionized the way software development is made. It had a massive influence on the Silicon Valley and then by extension the rest of the world, and then even sectors outside of tech, of course, but mostly for IT work here. What really matters, I think, is to not think in terms of methodology, but more in terms of enterprise agility. Right. So if you define it by the ability to adjust to a changing environment without losing your strategic coherence, that's I think, what you're talking about. You know, we actually just published a manifesto to celebrate the 25 years of the old manifesto, the Manifesto for Agile Software Development we just launched this month. A manifesto for enterprise Agility. And it's structured in the same way around four values, nine principles. I don't want to go through all of that, but I would encourage you to go to the PMI website and take a look. The four value is really explore the tensions and show that purpose is more important than plans in the end, that enterprise level outcomes are more important than functional optimization, that reinvention is more important and critical than preservation. Human centricity is more important than process. And it's important because many companies, in the end, especially when they're well oiled, they have well oiled machines, they are actually focused more on plans, split the plans in smaller plans and then it leads to functional optimization, preservation of what you have first and foremost. And then try to apply the process instead of remembering that the humans are the center of everything. And in the end the process is just a way of trying to help. But they're not that important, in fact, I mean, they are important, but they can change, they can evolve. Right? The humans are at the center.
- [26:50]
B
Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right, Pierre. I think this whole move to adopt and utilize and leverage AI really smart for a lot of nonprofits, but never losing that idea that humans are at the center of our companies, our organizations are nonprofits, and that's really the center of your work.
- [27:06]
A
You have to do it the right way though, because of course it's true that too much agility, without a proper thinking of how you implement that may lead you to complete chaos. Right. So basically teams who feel that the C suite doesn't know what they're doing, they know better on the ground. So that balance is hard to find, of course, but we think with our manifesto we're making good progress towards concrete ways of implementing the right balance. Like that.
- [27:32]
B
No, it's super helpful. Well, that thinking about concrete ideas and concrete principles. For my listeners who are again trying to get better at leadership, they're trying to lead their organizations better. What concrete practices that you would recommend? Perhaps anything like mentorship, peer learning, reflective practice. Are there things you feel like you want to pass on to people that are listening? Help leaders build resilience and sustain long term impact in their mission driven work. What would those things be in your mind?
- [27:58]
A
In my opinion, resilience comes from confidence and confidence comes from experience, right? There's nothing that replaces experience. As you age and as you gain more experience, you become more confident and become more resilient as well. One thing that I want to say is we often say that you learn from your errors, right? So mistakes are so important because that's how you learn to improve. But I would tell you, in my opinion, success matters as much or even more than mistakes, right? So being able to reflect on your success, what worked, how did it work, will give you confidence. You know, the mistakes you made, maybe you won't repeat them, not sure, but maybe. So that's useful, but it doesn't build a lot of confidence. Reflecting on what worked in your life and why, that is what gives you confidence. And sometimes you feel you don't know how this is going to play out, but you have this experience of success and you see this a lot in sports, that people can change the teams don't lose hope even when they're not in a good shape, because they know that in the past it's happened already and they overcame all of that. And then it will come back, opportunities will be there and if you're in a good state of mind, you'll see them. Then of course, your mentorship, peer learning, all of the things that help reducing isolation and accelerate your judgment, learning from others are very useful. And we provide that at PMI through our membership. Of course. One thing that I really want to focus on, and I think it's particularly true for mission driven organizations because we have the privilege of usually being able to do that, is to think long term, resist short termism. I mentioned at the very beginning I'd been through multiple kinds of governances, work for listed companies, private equity owned. The problem is very often it's hard to resist the short term, right? Short termism, if you were able to think long term. And most family owned, by the way, organizations, but also nonprofit, have this long Term view. Right, Interesting. You always have to try to bring everyone back to the thinking long term. Let a leadership team, an executive team work on their own and you will see that progressively they will become more and more short, earnest. And so if you want to lead, you really have to always drag everyone back to the long term.
- [30:19]
B
Yeah, well, certainly a long term focus over time really improves the mission driven organization to last and to have more donors stay, you know, supportive of that organization because they're, hey, they're going to stick around, they're going to be here for a long time and they're focused on that long term goal. So really like that if you need
- [30:35]
A
donors, like if you're this kind of organization, for sure, whatever they say they are interested in long term.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah, well said.
- [30:41]
A
Or at least it works better in your narrative if they see you focusing on the long term.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah, no, I think you're right. Absolutely. Pierre. Well, this has been fascinating conversation for my listeners who want to get to know you a little bit better or get to know pmi. Where would you send them? How best can they connect with you and with PMI?
- [30:58]
A
With me? You can connect with me on LinkedIn. It's pretty easy. And there, if you want to connect with PMI, go to pmi.org to learn about our mission, our global community. You can explore our work on project success, agility, AI sustainability, all the things we discussed. Most of our content is. If you want to become a member, you're very welcome. We have 750,000 members worldwide, so please join if you're interested and yeah, connect through PMI content, Research, Leadership insights. We publish a lot of thought leadership, Google us. Ask your favorite LLM AI tool to talk about us and most of the case, most of the time, most of the time they know us very well. So you're very welcome to join us for thinking, for learning, for interacting, for connecting with others and for having an impact.
- [31:45]
B
Wow. It's such a fascinating conversation again and I encourage my listeners, I'll have some things in the show notes, they can just click on that and learn a little bit more about pmi. But there's so many principles that you share today. I encourage my listeners to either listen to this a couple of times or just slow it down, pause it, take some notes and then, you know, replay because you've provided a lot of insights. I can tell with your experience and what you're doing at pmi, people can really put this into practice with their leadership. So again, Pierre, thanks so much for taking time to be on the show today.
- [32:11]
A
Thank you so much Rob.
- [32:13]
B
Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.