How to Create the Culture You Need to Succeed

Summary

Nonprofit Leadership Podcast: How to Create the Culture You Need to Succeed

Hosted by Dr. Rob Harder, the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast delves into critical issues facing nonprofit leaders, featuring insightful conversations with experienced leaders who share strategies and practices that drive success. In the episode titled "How to Create the Culture You Need to Succeed," released on February 10, 2025, Dr. Harder engages in a compelling discussion with Dr. Michael Horowitz, leader of the Community Solution, focusing on building and sustaining a thriving organizational culture.

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1. The Crucial Role of Organizational Culture

Dr. Harder opens the episode by emphasizing the paramount importance of culture in nonprofit organizations, echoing Peter Drucker's famous assertion that "culture eats strategy for breakfast" (02:47). He introduces Dr. Michael Horowitz, who underscores that while strategy, operations, and vision are essential, without a supportive culture, an organization cannot achieve its goals.

Notable Quote:

"It's humility and leadership having a lot of access to all levels of the organization... unless you really get in there and understand all the dynamics, the issues, the complexity, it's hard to establish that culture."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 02:47

2. Building a Culture of Radical Cooperation

Dr. Horowitz introduces the concept of "radical cooperation," a foundational principle for fostering collaboration both within the organization and with external partners. He highlights that in sectors like higher education, where cooperation is often lacking, making it a priority can set an organization apart.

Notable Quote:

"Our mantra is radical cooperation... Everyone says you're supposed to collaborate and coordinate, but higher ed is so not cooperative. So you have to build that first."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 05:03

3. Strategies for Effective Fundraising in Economic Downturns

Addressing the challenges of fundraising amidst economic uncertainty, Dr. Horowitz emphasizes the importance of building strong relationships with donors. He shares stories of persistence paying off, including a significant $15 million gift contingent on opening a medical school, illustrating how aligning fundraising efforts with organizational capabilities can secure sustainable support.

Notable Quote:

"You have to get ahead in the relationship with the funder. It has to be something that they're interested in and want to do for your space."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 07:17

4. Avoiding Mission Drift While Pursuing Financial Growth

Dr. Horowitz advises nonprofit leaders to critically evaluate potential funding opportunities to ensure they align with the organization's mission. He stresses the importance of assessing whether grants or donations will enhance the mission without imposing constraints that could divert focus.

Notable Quote:

"Is it good for the mission and it's like money in, money out. If it's good for the mission... don't get distracted by the shiny penny."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 12:04

5. Enhancing Efficiency Through Shared Resources

Highlighting the inefficiencies that often plague nonprofits, Dr. Horowitz advocates for shared infrastructure and resource pooling among similar organizations. He provides examples from the Chicago school system, where shared financial, HR, and IT services have streamlined operations and allowed organizations to focus more on their core missions.

Notable Quote:

"Nonprofits are very inefficient with their resources because they replicate a lot of the operational and business functions that are in fact generic... partnering with other nonprofits can save more of your resources."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 12:46

6. Applying Nonprofit Models to Higher Education

Dr. Horowitz shares his experiences in higher education, advocating for a "better together" approach among colleges and universities. By sharing governance, resources, and ideas, institutions can enhance their impact and foster a dynamic, innovative environment.

Notable Quote:

"If you lead a social service agency... they're tripping all over each other. Building coordination is key."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 19:49

7. Essential Leadership Qualities for Long-Term Impact

Drawing from over three decades of experience, Dr. Horowitz identifies critical leadership qualities such as humility, relationship-building (“power skills”), and adaptability. He emphasizes the balance between data-driven decision-making and maintaining strong interpersonal relationships within and outside the organization.

Notable Quote:

"Leaders often think they're supposed to know everything... can they bring together a group of people that collectively will have a great idea."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 23:38

8. Aligning Operations with Mission: Practical Approaches

To ensure that operations reflect the organization's mission, Dr. Horowitz recommends establishing clear metrics and regularly reviewing them against the mission statement. He cites examples like tracking student loan default rates as indicators of program success and aligning service activities with core objectives.

Notable Quote:

"If your mission can't align with operations, it may be time to convene leadership... look at what you're supposed to be doing and measure it."
— Dr. Michael Horowitz 25:47

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Dr. Horowitz sharing resources for listeners to learn more about his work, including visiting tcsedsystem.edu and connecting via LinkedIn. Dr. Harder wraps up by encouraging listeners to subscribe and share the podcast to spread valuable insights among nonprofit leaders.

Final Thoughts:

"Thanks for sharing your experience and your insights today on the show."
— Dr. Rob Harder 28:48

This episode provides actionable insights for nonprofit leaders aiming to cultivate a strong organizational culture, foster collaboration, effectively fundraise, and maintain alignment with their mission. Dr. Horowitz's experiences and strategies offer valuable guidance for achieving long-term impact and success in the nonprofit sector.

Transcript

[Dr. Rob Harder]

This is Dr. Rob Harder with the Nonprofit Leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who. Who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Welcome, everybody, to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. So today's guest, Dr. Horowitz, he leads the Community Solution. And maybe some of you have heard about this. It's working directly in higher education. And we're going to talk about a lot of different things because what they provide is really an alternative way to think about institutional training as well as higher education as a whole. But we're going to start with talking about culture. You know, culture is so critical in nonprofit organizations. In fact, culture is important for any organization, any business, any government institution. Right. I'll use the quote from Peter Drucker, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I think that is a true statement. And we're going to talk a bit about how that plays out for Dr. Horowitz, organization the Community Solution. We're also going to talk about leadership and how to make sure when you're trying to fundraise for your nonprofit organization, you don't chase money. And in the meantime, mission drift and get away from your original mission. Just a lot of interesting conversations, and I think you'll really enjoy his perspective. He's had a lot of years of experience, and I think you're going to enjoy hearing from Michael Horowitz today. As always, thanks for tuning in. Now on to the show. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox. Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Well, welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I have Michael Horowitz here on the show. Michael, thanks for joining, all the way from Chicago. Glad you're here.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

It's a pleasure to be here, Rob. Thank you.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

You got it. Well, let's dive right into this discussion. We're going to have today. A lot of things you talk about. We're going to talk about a lot of things that relate, of course, to the nonprofit sector. And I know you've emphasized the importance of trust and collaboration in achieving success. Success. Culture, at some level is everything right for any organization. That's for for profit, government and nonprofit, of course. In fact, I think there's that famous quote from Peter Drucker, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And so let's talk about culture a bit from your perspective and your experience. How does a nonprofit leader go about intentionally creating the culture that they want?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

You know, you're speaking my language, Rob. It is the most important thing, of course. You have to have strategy and strong operations and a vision. If you don't establish the culture to facilitate that, you're not going to get anywhere. I have found through now many years of experience in leadership that it's humility and leadership having a lot of access to all levels of the organization and in particular those that we serve. So in the case of higher education, it's students, if you're in different nonprofits, you know, depends on your client base. Unless you really get in there and understand all the dynamics, the issues, the complexity, it's hard to establish that culture. Maybe we can unpack it a little more later on, but one organization I've relied on for kind of culture building messages is Zing Train, based in Ann Arbor. And they're. They came out of Zingerman's Deli, founded by two Ann Arbor grads when they were 22. While they built a consulting organization heavily in the food world. They're in Ann Arbor. They've now worked a lot with higher ed, including us. And Ari Weinsweig, the founder, says, you know, you're never going to get better customer service than how you treat your own employees. So I think that's. We come back to that. It sounds so basic, yet it's hard to do day after day, week after week, month after month. So you keep at it. You keep repeating it as the leader, and you bring in people who are willing to go on that path with you.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Well said. I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm going to check out that particular group that you mentioned. Let's get specific about the culture you're trying to create. How do you create and foster a culture of collaboration within your organization? Because I know collaboration obviously within your organization is important, but also collaboration as a fellow nonprofit to other nonprofits is important, too. How do you do that, though? What's the. Some of the key components and the.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Term I've given for our organization. Our mantra is radical cooperation.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Oh, I like that.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Of course you want to cooperate. We put radical on it to mean that comes above everything. You know, we have a former trustee at our law school who also is in. In higher ed, and she said, well, Everyone says you're supposed to collaborate and coordinate, but higher ed is so not cooperative. And that's the baseline.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

So you're not. So you have to build that first. To me, to your point about nonprofits in general and good leadership, it's outward facing.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Too many organizations get insular and. And talking to themselves. So I built success first at the Chicago school and our system broadly by looking to the outside. What is the outside world asking of our organizations? Of course, you build talent internally and you want to build that culture of. We're talking to each other. And we're also getting a read on what the outside world has to say about our nonprofit agency, our or college, whatever it is, and not be afraid to borrow, share good ideas from the outside. I know more about higher ed, but my observation is probably the nonprofit world is cut up into too many pieces that are duplicating elements for the wrong reasons.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Interesting. Yeah. No, I think you're right. Absolutely. And it's interesting. We're going to talk a little bit more about higher ed specifically. Let's talk about the economy real quick. Because fundraising is so critical to nonprofits, right. We depend on donor support, grant support, sometimes government support, of course, through grants. A lot of people are wondering, you know, what kind of economy are we going to have at the beginning of the year In January of 2025, when this podcast will air? When it comes to this question, we'll just say, for the sake of this question, say there's an economic downturn. From your perspective, with a nonprofit leadership perspective, how can nonprofit leaders really effectively communicate the value of their services to funders and communities in a way that really secures sustainable support, almost regardless of the economic ups or downs.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

You really have to get. This is again, to that relationship part, getting ahead and the relationship of the funder. It has to be something that they're interested in and want to do for my space. And it might be a little different than outside of higher ed. I feel like our primary economic engine is the education. So we're heavily dependent on tuition and my main constituency is the students, and so I want to give them a great education. So I view the fundraising as icing on the cake. Absolutely want to have it, but we're going to have the cake regardless, through the tuition. We don't want to build the budget. Baking in revenue. So breaking in revenue from fundraising. I've had a few episodic successes. It hasn't been my focus, and I'd say in all three, it was building a strong relationship with the donor. In one case, they said no until they said yes. Like a lot of things, persistence.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

And in one case, it was a surprise. Cause the gift came unfortunately after the donor's passing. But I'd spent a lot of time cultivating the relationship, and she left our. Our system in her will.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Fascinating story. Talk about that a bit more. Persistence versus being annoying. How do you balance that persistence on the one hand, that's healthy and important and sometimes necessary without crossing that line, becoming annoying.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I had a mentor, Kurt McRae, who led Cal State Long beach. And he claimed he was physically thrown out of the Hollywood executive office. But he went back anyway and did get the gift.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I think that's nonprofit leaders, as you know. I mean, relationship self awareness has to be a big thing. It's almost like you have to make the call in real time. Do I still see potential? Or this is, you know, the door is closed. We have an institute called the Naomi Ruth Cohen Institute that the founders gifted to the Chicago school when I was president. And they were heavily involved in starting it, running it, the health advocacy. And the first time it was clear they wanted to stay involved, running it, they weren't ready. So in my ear, we aren't ready. Didn't mean don't come back, but we don't see that you've made the case today. So it was a year later we had another development officer. She said, I, I think it's time to go ask them again. The biggest gift I've ever gotten was from the Riverside Health foundation to launch our Kansas Health Science University. And they were really clear. We've been trying for years and years to get an osteopathic medical school in Wichita. And we haven't been successful. We will give this gift on one condition. You open the school. That was so we knew what we had to do. And I thought that was a reasonable ask. It's not that you can't just turn around and open a medical school, but I knew that if we could pull it off, the school was going to get a $15 million gift. And it did. And that's been my big win. So I guess it depends on the relationship and your sensitivity to it.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Congratulations. That's a big gift. And I love how there was a sense of, well, as long as you do it, here it is. Right. And so now you know exactly what the path is to get it done.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

No other condition. I thought that was as clear as could be.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's right. Okay, on that same topic, have you found some key strategies that have Been particularly effective for non profit organizations when it comes to navigating through economic challenges while still maintaining their mission driven goals. I think what I'm getting at is sometimes you can chase money, right? But then if you follow a certain grant or get a donor that really is excited about something, but you realize if you accept that money, then there are strings attached and it moves you away from your mission that you originally had to begin with. How do you avoid that mission drift but also still be really aggressive in a good way to getting as much support and financial development money as possible?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

That is a really good question. We have a great chief Financial officer Jennifer Gantz. We're very excited when we get grants, but she always wants to evaluate, in fact, will this be economically beneficial for our college or does it create requirements that downstream we will have to fund with no continuous funding? Is it good for the mission?

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

If it's good for the mission and it's sort of the money in, the money out. Okay, good. Because you're building services or you're building, in our case, experiences for students. If it creates an obligation that takes you off the mission, it's definitely not worth it. I think you're getting on something that probably is true of most organizational leadership in any context. Like what are we here to do? And don't get distracted by the shiny penny.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

I like that. Okay. That's always, I think, a temptation and a challenge for nonprofit leaders.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Yeah, I'll hit it from the other side.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Sure.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Nonprofits are very inefficient with their resources because they replicate a lot of the operational and business functions that are in fact generic. And so they would have a lot more resource if they partnered with other nonprofits as we have done. We try to deliver as much of the non student facing services as a group of colleges and university. We call it our shared infrastructure. In Chicago, we have a lot of great small nonprofit theater. And I've always wondered how many of these theaters. And they're struggling. Right. Because it's right. Do they share a ticketing service or a marketing service or one. They're not that big. Can't they have one financial lead that has nothing to do with drama or theater? So I think whether it's education, social service, you can extend that idea. And that's an answer to saving more of your resource, getting better quality to in fact impact your mission better.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations, and simplifies giving for your supporters. With DonorBox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part? There are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donor hey friends, thanks so much for listening to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Many of you know that I provide leadership and life coaching. With my 30 years of nonprofit experience, I know firsthand how hard leaders like you work. I also know how important it is to have someone you can call on and to get help with the barriers and leadership challenges you will face both professionally and personally. I really want to help people thrive and become all they were meant to become by providing coaching and consulting services. And it's been so much fun working as a coach, working with clients who are leaders just like you, looking to grow personally and professionally. What you may not know is that I also provide consulting services. Currently. In fact, I'm working with an organization to help them create a clear strategy and plan to raise $3.5 million to expand their organization. So perhaps you're an executive director and you sense your organization has hit a lid on growth and you need a strategy as to how you can scale your nonprofit. Or perhaps the culture you set out to create is not the culture you have currently and it's impacting your staff retention. Or maybe you're facing a major resource challenge and you don't know what to do. That's where I can help. I come alongside leaders and organizations to create strategies to grow their organizations and maximize their impact. If your nonprofit needs help with fundraising strategy or operational effectiveness, reach out today. You can simply email [e-mail] you can go to my website robharder.com or you can call me 435-776-5173. I would be happy to provide a free sample coaching session or a consult to see how I can best be of help to you and your organization. Well, thanks again for listening. Now back to the show. All right, you mentioned higher education. That's a lot of your experience, obviously. Let's talk a bit about higher education and institutions. How can nonprofit models be applied to higher education? Number one, in order to really maximize resources, support students at the same time while enhancing broader community impact. What have you found from your experience there?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

My whole mantra is better together, right? So institutions have their unique qualities, yet there's so much we can do as one Team. In our case, we have a team of six colleges and universities. So the more you open the doors, as I mentioned, we have one chief financial officer and finance system. We share the major HR capabilities. We have one IT team. I think, number one, you get a higher level, you get the ability to not bog down leadership with many important regulatory, technology compliance issues that are important, but let's do that as a group. The thing that I have found extremely powerful, though, is the exchange of ideas. So we convene our seven boards every two years in person, and we exchange information. We have faculty assembly. Again, you have to shake it up, get new ideas and create that fertilization of thought and dynamism. I think that's available throughout the nonprofit sector. But it's really creating that culture of teamwork. We talked about it at the start internally, but can you create a team more broadly? I'll tell you one other. I mentioned Zing Train a number of years ago. I watched. I think it's one of the best talks ever by Eve Moreau from Boston Consulting. And I think it goes something like how too many rules at work keep you from getting things done. And he shows a relay race where the fastest team on paper loses to the team that executes the teamwork and energy of the teamwork better. So on paper, you would say there's no way this other team is going to win. And he says, but no one is measuring how they pass the baton, how they cheer each other on. I think that's at the heart of it. How do you create the team internally? And how can you create, as we have done in higher ed with six colleges and universities, that broader teamwork. If you lead a social service agency, are there four, five, six others? Again, I only read about it in the paper. I was struck. Homelessness is a big issue in house throughout our country. And this article I read said Houston is doing the best for a number of reasons. But one of the things they pointed to is most big cities have a plethora of nonprofits. This one for housing, this one for mental health, this one for basic healthcare. And they said the coordination of those nonprofits was at the top of the list. Of course, building more housing probably was number one, but if you don't coordinate the nonprofits with the best of intentions, they'll be tripping all over each other.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Interesting example. Yeah, I see that replicated all over the country with different issues. That's just one of the big ones, of course, but great example. I like that. Well, and then we could talk a bit about the Community Solution. You've overseen the Community Solution for many years now, and for my listeners, it serves over 13,000 students. It has shared resources and infrastructure, which you mentioned a little bit before, and that's really helped it become particularly successful. What do you believe are the key factors that have really contributed to your model's success there at Community Solution?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Most important, where we discuss building that culture of radical cooperation.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I think a lot of nonprofits, a lot of higher ed, talk about doing things together, and they're centered by the history and siloing. And so I made a decision to build our system starting with a governance framework. You have to get that by. Every nonprofit is led by a governing board, whether you call it board of directors or board of trustees. You have to have that buy in at the top level and you have to formally architect it so that the board is saying, we want you to do this. What I've seen over and over again is it can even be the CEO or the president, but sometimes other executives, they get together, but it's really not the top priority of the overall organization. So it melts away. I can't tell you how many times I've been reached out to by higher ed affinity groups who say, we want to do this. And they say, well, we want to start with buying things together or sharing programs. I say, it's just not going to happen unless you get the boards of your organizations together. And they say, we want to do this because the things you're mentioning, while they could be useful, they'll become the 10th priority day to day of people who are doing their best to run the organization. So I think that was a key insight. And it also gives us an easy way. When colleges approach us, they say, well, we want all this stuff, but we don't want to be part of your governing model. Like, okay, so we're not for you because we're kind of all in. It's not a la carte.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Right.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

And either you like it or you don't.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Yeah, interesting. Okay, interesting approach there. Now, you've had over three decades of experience in the nonprofit sector. I'm curious, what have you found to be the most important leadership qualities that nonprofit leaders should develop in order to drive long term impact with their organization? So what have you found so far in all those years of experience?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I think we've touched on a number of them. Attention to the outside world and the outside ecosystem, culture, building, and don't stand on your laurels. Whatever was innovative 30 years ago, 2010, five may not meet the moment of today. So we have, I would say, our colleges. One is 120 years old. The youngest is just five in Kansas.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

So they're all kind of mavericks at their founding. But what you find is over time, the maverick can become the status quo. And the real thing is to drive people back to that founding spirit. What was the reason we came about? So let's embrace that here in 2024. About to go to 2025. Openness to new ideas.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Do you feel like, as you've been around for many years, is there a leadership quality or two that just seems to be still missing with up and coming leaders? Is there something, maybe even in our culture or education that are just not stressing an important aspect of leadership? Do you feel like that's critical for success in any sector, not just this nonprofit sector?

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Well, now there's. We used to call them soft skills. Now I've heard them referred to as power skills, which kind of makes sense. I mean, it's that relationship ability. And I came up in a youth group called Young Judea. I think it's still around. I really learned that ethic of, you can work as a team, it's okay to ask others for help. You don't have to know everything. So I think leaders often think they're supposed to know everything when really the idea is, can they bring together a group of people that collectively will have a great idea? And the other thing I'll note is we are in a world where there's increasing access to data and information. I think today's leader has to really balance data rich and these power relationship skills because the data tells us a lot. We believe. We believe we're getting the unhoused housed. And then the data might say, no, we're not. I'm listening to a great book called Recoding America. I heard about it on the Ezra Klein podcast about. We get so frustrated with government. We don't understand all the layers and years that have been built up that make it hard to execute on the technology or the plan. So I think you want leaders who are going to get into that deep understanding of the organization, the ecosystem, and find the team to really have an impact.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Nice. Okay, now, good to know all those things. And again, with your experience, it's so helpful to hear when it comes to another thing that nonprofits I think can struggle with at times, is aligning one's organization's mission with its operations. In other words, kind of operationalize your values and your mission. So how can you best align the strategies and operations of a nonprofit organization with their core values and mission, especially when it comes to facing the pressure of economic uncertainty that we've talked about before.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I mean, if your mission can't align with operations, it may be time to convene leadership. The board look at the mission. So I refer to our students as agents of change who will serve our global community. So that makes it real simple. Are the students, are we enrolling qualified students who can complete the program and go on and have a good life and profession? And there's measurements you can put on retention, graduation rate. We focus on something called the loan default rate because most of our students have to borrow. So if they're paying back their loans, that's an indicator that they're working. Every nonprofit can have that. And I think that goes back to the relational part and aligning it to metrics. So figure out, what are you supposed to. We always have a service component at our big events. And when we had our board conference now in Chicago, we went to the Chicago Food Depository.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

And oh, my goodness, were they incredibly organized. And they knew, you know, how much food we packed in the hours we were there. And again, I don't know that organization well, but it looked to me like they were very much aligning operations with. The idea of our purpose is to feed hungry people in this community. So in some cases, it's. It's as simple and discreet as that. And others, it might be more complex. But yeah, look at the mission. Say, you may find this came up when we're talking about grants. You may be doing a lot of things that seem useful, but they're in fact off mission.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. Now it's really helpful. Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I know for my listeners. They want to find out a little bit more about your work. So what's the best place for them to find out a little bit more about you, first of all, and then also the work that you do.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

I would love for them to go visit tcsedsystem.edu to learn about our non profit integrated system of six colleges and universities. They can also check me out on LinkedIn. I know we're both members of the Forbes nonprofit council, so they can look at Dr. Michael Horowitz. I do write regularly on the Forbes Nonprofit council space and then repost that on LinkedIn. So those would be the two ways to go. And through the website, they can find their way to both our overall system and all six of our colleges and universities that educate students in all 50 states, internationally and we also have 12 discrete campuses around the U.S. nice.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay, that's great to know. Well again, always love having people with a passion and a vision. And of course you have so much experience too. Thanks for sharing your experience and your insights today on the show.

[Dr. Michael Horowitz]

Thanks for having me Rob.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Hey friends. Well I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.