Sophie Blondeau (3:49)

It's my pleasure, Rob. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Rob Harder (3:51)

You got it. Well, as we said before, we hit record a lot of things that we want to talk about. So let's just dive right in. The first is so you have a really unique approach. You can talk about the research project you have just completed, but you do research all the time. So you can just talk about in general what you've been doing. But specifically this study, we're going to focus our time on what unique approach does this study that we're going to address today? What does it take to examine the current state of the social impact sector and why is it considered to be the first of its kind?

Sophie Blondeau (4:20)

Yes. Well, thank you so much. So as you said, Sewin is a social impact consultancy and we're absolutely obsessed with data and technology to accelerate the mission of the partners we work with. So that is sort of the context that we came into with this study. What we wanted to do was to get a comprehensive understanding of where the social impact sector stands in terms of using data and technology. And the way we wanted to prove it, everything can be improved, right? This is not the end all and be all. This is, I always say, everyone in Every organization is a work in progress, so this is hopefully a step in the right direction. What we found when we looked at what the existing studies were available out there was a focus on a specific sector, you know, whether that was foundations or nonprofits or B Corps. So we really wanted to get a cross sectional approach to the, to the impact space to really understand that. The other thing too is a lot of the studies focus on the executive viewpoint of a certain, you know, sector. We really wanted to make a cross sector and cross sectional. So we talked to the board members, we talked to executive leaders, but we also talked to the individuals on the ground. Right. To really get that holistic view. The other thing that we found was, you know, lacking, for lack of a better term, is that a lot of them were based on just surveys, which are not bad in of themselves. Right. But they're limited because the difference between what people say they will do, what they actually do, as you know, is quite different. So we really wanted to make that also a bigger context and add, you know, quantitative measurements and approaches to really get a deep picture, which in the end we hope makes it really actionable. So what we are obsessed about is not just the data and the technology and how it can accelerate your mission, but it's how to make it practical. Right. So if you have the time to go and read the study, it's quite long, but we do have summaries. But you will see that it's divided into three sort of sections for each of the findings. Right. It's the first is like the what, like what is the key finding that we came out and what you should be paying attention. And then the other thing is so what? Like, why should it matter to you? Right? Because at the end of the day, research for the sake of research that's not practical is very unsatisfying, I'm sure you'll agree. And then the last component of the report is the now what? So what could your organization do or should do or may choose not to? But what action are you going to take from this research, which I think is super important to us, that it is not just about here's some findings about what's going on in this space, but really, what can we do about it?

Dr. Rob Harder (7:06)

Yeah, you know, and I love how you started that, and I think you've already kind of dipped your toe a bit into this, but I thought maybe we'd go a little bit more into what were the main motivations behind initiating this research. I understand it was early 2024, particularly when it comes to data maturity and technology barriers in the social impact sector. I know that's an ongoing issue for the nonprofit sector, the social impact sector. So talk a little bit more that beginning point.

Sophie Blondeau (7:28)

Yeah. So listen, from our work with many organizations, you know, from bigger organizations like AARP to smaller organizations like Faith in Place, which is a wonderful organization, you know, in Chicago, in the Chicago area, our work, you know, has pointed to the fact that the more data mature an organization is, the more impact they can create in the world. Right. That's our, that's what we saw. And we really wanted to understand those drivers and be able to not only shine a light on those drivers, but give organizations a way to replicate and implement those best practices. So that was really, really the driver. And you know, of course, the study shows that we can go into the findings more deeply, but the more data mature an organization is, the better their impact. And whether that is better funding, better employee engagement, increase in operational inefficiencies, or innovation in general, you see a very clear through line. So really our driver was to, to highlight those best practices and make it accessible and implementable.

Dr. Rob Harder (8:37)

Good stuff. Well, and I think one of the things that we want to explore in this conversation today was you bring out a stat that only 29.5% of organizations are effectively really leveraging data for decision making. So about 30%. Only 30%. So there, that's a lot of people that are really not maximizing data. Right. To help them with decision making. So tell me more about that. What did you run across in your research? That, why, what's the barri. What's the hold up or why aren't people using more of this data for their decision making?

Sophie Blondeau (9:06)

Well, I'll tell you the first thing is, first of all, yes, clearly we could be doing a better job. And I think people intrinsically know that. Right. I think they, they're like, I know that we should know, use our data better. One thing I will say is that did not come out of the research was we need more data because we all have. So that's the irony, right? This is not a, a resource that's difficult to get. I think the challenge is, is translating that data into strategy that you can, you know, that is what's really, really hard. I think the, one of the major barriers, and it's understandable is that the people in the nonprofits or the other organizations are focused on the frontline work. Right? They are not data experts, they're not data strategists, and that's okay. But that is, you know, the lack of skills and understanding is definitely a barrier. I think that the limited resources that they have, especially in this moment, the barriers are real. The investment in technology is very hard to get. People do not donate, you know, do not fund technology per se. I had a very good conversation about that with the community foundation a couple weeks ago who's like, listen, I can't tell my board that we're funding technology. So I think that the challenge, right, is understanding the through line between the investment into the data and technology and how you can demonstrate impact. And that through line very rarely exists. The other interesting thing is that a lot of the organizations don't have data and technology specific staff. And we see that because at sewin that we often play that role. We kind of dip in and say, okay, you do your job and we'll help you identify what best practices you can. So I think that the skills and the time and the resources are just very real barriers.

Dr. Rob Harder (10:56)

No, that's good. Well, thank you for sharing that. And now I want to go into the comprehensiveness of this report. How did you ensure the comprehensiveness and the representation of your study across different organizations? You mentioned at the very beginning, you have non profits, foundations, academia, of course, government, private companies. How did you ensure just there was a wide variety of input for this study and data collection?

Sophie Blondeau (11:17)

Let me tell you, I have my CEO to thank for that, Orey Carmel, who is the driver of all things research and data. And so he was super thorough because he wanted to make sure that we not only looked at different sectors, you know, the nonprofit, the private sectors, the foundation sectors, but also in terms of geography and in terms of demographics. So we interviewed, you know, we conducted, I think it was over 500 hours of interviews with people from across organizations. We spoke to 120 experts. So you can see, I mean, we really. And we looked, I think we interviewed about 3,500 individuals. And again, like I said in the beginning, all the way from leadership to the people on the ground, which, as you know, will highlighted one of those findings, was that there was a huge disconnect between what the leadership thinks and what's actually happening on the ground.

Dr. Rob Harder (12:08)

That's cool. Good. Okay. So one of the things you came out with was some persistent challenges and barriers that you identified in the sector, especially when it relates to resource constraints and data sharing practices. Could you share some of those? What did you find when it came to those things?

Sophie Blondeau (12:23)

Yeah, so what we found, the positive side of it is that data maturity really does relate to better Impact, right? But organizations struggle. So when I say data maturity, we talking about their ability to identify and use different data and technology practices to impact the whole of their organization. And when we talk about data maturity, it is really a process. So when we talk about the first stage of data maturity, it's organizations that are data aware. They know that data is important and could drive funding, could drive their effectiveness, could help them better understand their audiences. They just don't know where to start. Right. All the way to the golden standard of insight driven data maturity. So you use your data to drive all of your decisions and to drive that clear mission and goal. Right. So I think that what the first thing that is in a barrier is not knowing where you sit on that data maturity scale. Right. And that means taking a hard look. You know, I keep saying you can't look away. I say the same thing now that we're talking about, you know, new technologies like AI, you know, it's like you can't look away. You have to know where you are and start there. I think that the other thing that is really a challenge is, is data architecture, like where your data sits, where does it reside, who has access to it, in what format is it? Right. We work with organizations that have maybe three or four tech decks to tell you the same information. Somehow nobody knows where the data sits or what it says. You know, we work with organizations that for example, want to use their data to improve the programming, which is a very core thing, what you're trying to do as a nonprofit. And they can't tell you which programs are succeeding, which one should be sunsetted. And that's literally because they don't have the data architecture to tell you where the data sits. So as one of the experts in our report said, she said data can be a buzzword in the boardroom. It needs to be practical for everyone from the frontline people to the senior leaders. And that is a non negotiable. The other barriers, data silos, right? There's, like I said, there's a lack of standard definitions of, you know, for what data we're trying to collect, the way it's aggregated, the way it's collected, the way it's shared with the rest of the organization. And so those are really sometimes very deeply rooted and longstanding. And it's hard to get started, right? It's hard. It's just painful. Like we don't like change, we don't like, you know, and we don't really have that much time, which is why sometimes it's really helpful to have somebody come from the outside and understand what you're trying to achieve and start the process. You know, it's. It's all a gradual process. It's not going to be done overnight. Like I said, data maturity is a progression that takes time and commitment.

Dr. Rob Harder (15:27)

Well, you know, and as they think about nonprofit leaders, a lot of my listeners, most of them, I would guess, are always battling just having too much on their plate, not enough time to get things done. So organizing their time, focusing their attention on things that are most important. So one of the questions I ask, and this came out of your report as well, how can we as nonprofit leaders mitigate against having 75% of our time being consumed really by reactive transactional tasks rather than really the strategic, meaningful work that really push our missions forward? You kind of talk a bit about that in the report. So talk more about how can we do that, how can we reverse that? Because I know that's a temptation for all of us because there's so many things you end up doing. You wear so many hats. Could you speak to that? Maybe?

Sophie Blondeau (16:08)

Yeah. So listen, first of all, I always think it's really important to say it's okay because as you say, right. Everybody experiences it, and it is pull and push. And I think that the most motivating factor is to say that the people, the leaders who spend more time with their strategic efforts tend to have more data maturity. And you're going to hear that over and over again and to achieve more impact. So we all in this sector devote a lot of time, sweat and tears to the work that we do. And I think that everybody would agree that the more impact you can make, the better. So that's sort of like the encouragement piece of why you should go through this. Right. And I think that it is something that is what I would say has to come from the top. So I think that leaders have to set the example to say this is just as important, the strategic time, understanding our North Star, whether we're delivering on it, whether each of our efforts, our programs, our fundraising efforts are going in this direction. That's what we mean by strategic time. Right. Strategic focus will make sure that we create the most impact possible. So I think that has to come from the top. The second thing is, you know, you're a coach, I'm a coach. You have to look at where you're starting. Okay? So that's what the study says. We're very confident in that finding. But I would invite all of your listeners to open up their calendar Paper or digital? And look at the past couple weeks and look at it and really say to yourself, where was I spending my attention? Was it putting out the fires or was it any of it dedicated to, are we making progress towards our North Star? I find that very helpful. And one of the things that is, again, that's super helpful is really when literally scheduling three or four time blocks a week to dedicate to thinking about what's our mission, where's our North Star, where are we not achieving our goals? Right. Being honest about that, and what fire can I just put on hold for that hour? I mean, really, we're just talking about that hour, which will help you leapfrog in terms of the progress you're making. So I think that that's what I would suggest. And I think that obviously, which is a little bit harder, but is to invest in data maturity. Right? Invest in the way you're using data and tools to streamline things like fundraising efforts, tracking your impact measurement. So all those things that will make the investment in the strategic efforts measurable. And therefore, it's kind of like a virtual cycle. When you see the progress and it gets easier to access the data to say, we are making progress, our programs are improving, we are reaching more audiences, our fundraising is improving. It gets everybody to focus a little bit more versus feeling overwhelmed and focusing on activities that, you know, at the end of the day, may seem important in the moment, but don't really drive systemic, you know, broad change.

Dr. Rob Harder (19:27)

Well, as you talked originally about the time blocking and just really looking at your schedule and doing a time audit, I recommend as I coach. Yeah, you're right. We're both coaches, and I think that's one of the top things I recommend people to do. If they're really struggling with managing their time, where did their time go? They're not feeling like they're getting really the important things done. One of the things I used to do in my own life is just put, literally put on your calendar on a regular basis, on certain spots of your calendar, an hour or two, whatever you can spare, and just put strategic leadership or visioning or whatever. Like, you don't have to tell people what it is. You just say, I've got an appointment, but it's a reminder to you I need to do the deep work, the strategic work, the really important stuff, particularly if you're an executive director or you're the CEO, you're the leading the organization. Someone's got to be out thinking about the future and thinking about things in a very strategic way because you're right, we're always fighting fires and nonprofits, there's always more to do. I mean, always, you can always be reacting and fill your day with really important things, but not the most important thing. So.

Sophie Blondeau (20:25)

And I think you make a great point. You make a great point. It's a balance. Like nobody, you know it, nobody's saying that one is more important than the other, but you have to acknowledge that both need to be part of your schedule and your attention. You know, it's a. I don't know if you know the future as Trista Harris, but I saw her at a conference and she thinks a lot about, you know, what's ahead. Obviously, you know, she's a futurist in terms of strategy for nonprofits, but it's a great reminder. And one of the things she said, she's like, listen, I know it's, it's really hard to think about the future and make time, but every Friday afternoon I say to people, spend two hours researching, thinking about what key trends are happening and what impact it could have on my mission, on my organization, and think about it as an upstream sort of approach. Right. Instead of always reactive. And I have to say to you that it's like, it makes so much sense. And like you said, when you put it down on your calendar, you're like, this feels good to not always be like pushing away, you know.

Dr. Rob Harder (21:26)

So yeah, I like that. That's a great suggestion about just really thinking about future trends and how it will impact you and to get in front of that like say upstream rather than just always reacting, which can be the go to and the status quo. We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. okay, so let's go about. There is work that can be described as the disconnect between the executive leadership on the one hand and frontline innovation within organizations. I think this is true for businesses as well as nonprofit and social impact sector for sure. What impact though does it have on achieving social impact goals specifically? What did you find?

Sophie Blondeau (22:41)

Yeah, well, listen, so first of all, you know, the research did show that disconnect. Right. So I'm just going to quote here and it said, you know, we found like for example, 40% of the board members indicated that their organization used data driven approach to decision making, which as we know, we think is the best approach. Right. But only 8, 15% of the individuals on the ground felt that way. So you know, like, it's like, wow, it's like, yeah, it's a shared reality that somehow is not really accurate. Right. So I think that, you know, that basically is, means that there's like really, there's three reasons for that I think. Right. One is that you're, you're, you're clearly your leadership is isolated and isolated, you know, maybe they have an idea of what your true north is, but they really don't understand what's going on in the ground. On the ground, rather. Right. So I think that it just needs to have that communication between the two different parts of the organization are essential in order to do, to have that, you know, And I think that when you have low data maturity, right. You're not using data, it's harder to share. Right. The common, right. It's, that's a common information that, that connects both the, the leaderships of an organization and the people on the ground. Right. When we're saying we're trying to impact, for example, you know, I don't know, aarp, you know, tries to disrupt the way people age. Right. And you have to have a clear understanding what does that mean and how are we doing that on the ground? Well, you can only do that if you can link your programmatic activity with your true north. And I think that, and that can only be happening if you have the data, the processes to share that information. And I think that what's happening now is that it's growing, the gap is growing between what the leadership think is happening and what's happening on the ground. So I think that the ability to use data to set your work, set your goals and then demonstrate what's working and what's not working is a really, really efficient way for those two parts of the organizations to talk to one another.

Dr. Rob Harder (24:49)

That's good. Okay, so another thing, you've already talked about some of the things you cover and we did start talking about future trends. So what were the trends you found in this study that really you bring to the surface that those critical, really critical issues, I would say for the sector's growth. So factors like data maturity, storytelling, artificial intelligence as well, how do they all contribute to or perhaps hinder the progress of any particular social impact. Again, talk a little bit more about what you found when you study different organizations.

Sophie Blondeau (25:19)

Yeah, so listen, the organizations that have low data maturity, right, Find it more difficult to tell their stories of impact, Find it more difficult to improve their programmatic activities, Find it more difficult to increase their funding, which is in this moment critically important. Find it more difficult to create storytelling that is impactful to their key stakeholders, right? So that's another thing that you can't just measure impact just for the sake of measuring impact, right? It has to be relevant to the key key stakeholders, both internal and external. So I think that that is the most important thing is setting yourself up for success. Is that part of the j to maturity, the tools and the processes when it comes to things like AI, you know, it's where everyone is talking about the potential of AI to accelerate the work of nonprofits. And what we found was, you know, in another study I just recently read, it was something like, you know, 82% of nonprofit organizations are very interested and intrigued by AI and how they could use it, and 75% of them don't have a strategy.

Dr. Rob Harder (26:29)

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Sophie Blondeau (26:31)

So again, the reality is if you don't have a holistic framework about your data, your tools, your processes and your knowledge, right? It just becomes a new technology that doesn't get used, right? So that through line has to exist. It has to exist. You have to understand that the way the organization uses data has to be evaluated from. We usually use like five perspectives, right? We have to look at the way, the culture of the organization, like, how are we set up? Like, do we value data? Do we have the commitment from leadership to invest in the infrastructure, into the tools, into the training, into the funding? Right? We look at the people. And do you have the right people in place for that? I mean, like we said, a lot of times you don't even have. A lot of organizations are too small to even have a data specific person, right? And they use very, very basic tools. You know, like we're talking Excel spreadsheets, which are fine. It's a good. It's better than nothing, but it's not ideal, right? And like I said, do they have the knowledge, the skills, do you have the tools and do you have the processes, like we said before, to communicate that information throughout the organization, right? So that's really setting yourself up for success. And I know that it can be quite daunting to say, where do we start in the process? Right? But I think I'm saying that it is really worth investing in those data and tools and processes as an organization. And we do find that it is. Is obviously harder for small organizations. But it doesn't mean that can't get started. Right? It doesn't mean they can't get started. And one of the tools, you know, there are many tools out there. But I think that, you know, I think if you go on our website, we have a thing called the Data Accelerator, and you can. It's free and it takes, I think, seven minutes, you know, but it tells you from those perspectives, where does your organization stand? So like we said before, where do you start? You know, let's take a realistic look so that you can move along that maturity process and create more impact.

Dr. Rob Harder (28:42)

That's very good. Well, you know, I know when it comes to fundraising and really telling your story well for your nonprofit organization, you need to tell stories about impact that's measurable, right? That you are able to measure the program impact, that you're doing, whatever programs you're doing, whatever organization you have. So why is measuring impact still a challenge, though, for most organizations in the sector? And what are the consequences, would you say, of focusing on inputs and activities rather than truly outcomes and results?

Sophie Blondeau (29:08)

Yeah, so I think that, like, you just highlighted a lot of organizations, you know, measure activities and not outcomes. Okay. And I think that is partially because it's easier, let's be realistic, to say, you know, we delivered X number of meals. And it doesn't mean that it's not important because, you know, as we always say, that knowledge can always help refine your programmatic activities, refine, you know, your approaches. So it doesn't mean that it's not helpful. But I think that one of the problems is that there are a couple of different ways of measuring impact that are very different. So I think that in the nonprofit sector, the impact you're trying to measure is very much a long term. It could take years, a decade. Right. But when you're trying to demonstrate impact to a funder, they're looking at it a quarterly time horizon. So I think that that imbalance between the two time horizons is very difficult to manage. And I think that both are important, but it is definitely something that needs to be acknowledged. And the other thing too is I think that it's difficult to do if you don't have a clear mission. Mission, vision and purpose. So having that true North Star, I think is super important. Sometimes organizations actually can't tell you what they're measuring, outcomes or activities. It doesn't matter, but they haven't decided about what is it actually that's important. What impact are we actually trying to create? And, you know, a lot of our work, that's actually the first step. Is everybody, including external, internal stakeholders, very clear on what our true North Star is? I don't know if you find that, but it's, you know, again, I have a strategic buying. So, yeah, you know, that's where I would start. The other thing that we've learned from working with our. With our partners is thinking about how you measure impact that's meaningful to your stakeholders, not just about what you want to say. Right. What you think is important and what you, you know, what your board thinks is important. Because at the end of the day, the reason we all get up, you know, in the morning is to create social change. So we have to be very clear on that. And it is incredibly important that you align those measurements with those, you know, that theory of change. I mean, there's no doubt about it. So I'll give you an example. We just worked with an organization called the Prostate Cancer Research as an organization in the uk, and they obviously patients who are facing cancer, and they want to empower them and to change the experience that they have. Right. And they had very, very clear targets. Right. It was like, are they more empowered? Do they feel more empowered? Do they feel more informed about the process that they're going to go through? And are they going to experience less treatment, regret? So you can see that is very clear how they're trying to empower those patients. It's very centered on the patients themselves, and it's a story that they can tell their target audience. Like, this is how we're impacting your life. And it was so powerful in terms of raising more funds and telling the story to fundraisers. So those are the challenges. But I think the key thing is what are you measuring and in what timeframe? Right. You have to be very clear from the beginning.

Dr. Rob Harder (32:45)

Yeah, exactly. No. Well said. Okay, so when it comes to what's necessary for the sector to really better equip its people with the tools, the knowledge, the practices needed to address the most significant social challenges, what are those next steps? Like, people are listening to this podcast. Hopefully they'll get the data from your study. What are some of those key next steps that you'd recommend right now?

Sophie Blondeau (33:07)

First of all, I would encourage everybody, when they are using that strategic time, to read the top findings of the study. It's a long study, but there's top 10 trends and very easily digestible So I would definitely recommend that because it gives you a context for what your organization could do and it's not going to be that you should do everything. And I think that's really important. Breaking it down into, you know, steps that are actionable and not overwhelming. I can't recommend enough. So I don't want anybody to feel discouraged that it is an overwhelming task. So first of all, read the 10 things. I think that the first and the best way to get the momentum going and it is a question of getting the momentum going. And it will get easier because it will become accepted by the organization and the organization will create muscle memory. And that's what you want, right? This is not a one and done so one clearly, clearly define your true north. What is your theory of change, no matter what the size of the organization? And you would be surprised. But that leads to some of the disconnect, right? It does lead to some of the disconnect between the leaders. Really be aligned on that. You know, we, we often start our engagements like throw everybody in a room, the key stakeholders and say, are we all aligned on that? Because that's where it starts, right? Because the data is the through line between your mission and vision and purpose, all the way down to measurement and measuring that impact. So let's start there. That's what I would do. Clear theory of change, you know, including activities and outcomes at an impact measurement. Then, okay, where do you sit on that through line? Where are you with your data? Do a data maturity assessment like I said, right? Look at how data is being used in your organization. Is it a data driven organization? Culturally? Does the leadership think that it is an important thing to focus on? Do you have people who are engaged? Do you have the tools? Do you have the knowledge? Do you have the process and go step by step. And again, you don't have to change everything at once. You're not obviously going to change their culture in one fell swoop. But take that first step of saying, okay, what would be the most important impact that we can measure for our stakeholders? For example, okay, who owns that data? What tools are we using to collect that data? How is that data being used for storytelling? Do you know, sometimes we found that the data and the impact measurement is happening, but it's not being translated into impact storytelling, right? So two steps. Where are you going your true north and where do you stand on the data maturity scale and how can you get started to make sure that the data becomes the through line for the organization?

Dr. Rob Harder (35:59)

Well, that sounds good. Well, I know My guests are probably going to want to find out a little bit more about you. Find out about Sowen. So where would you set the them? What's the best place for them to connect with you?

Sophie Blondeau (36:07)

Listen, they can definitely find me on LinkedIn anytime and I am always happy to have a conversation. You know, these, there's a lot of topics as well and every organization is different. You know, this is, this is why we try to speak to so many organizations is. Is chichmally and understand where they're at. So I'm always happy to have a conversation. And then you can find us, you could go on our website, Sewin Co, and you can find all of the resources I mentioned in today's conversation and you can download them and use them as. As you wish.

Dr. Rob Harder (36:38)

Great. Well, again, thanks for doing this report. Thanks for providing good data. Speaking of data, good data for nonprofit leaders because I think it is data maturity, as you mentioned, and just understanding your organization and having the right data for making good decisions is absolutely critical. I think it separates out the healthy and good organizations from those that just struggle along. And I think it, you know, I've seen since COVID it's a little more competitive, if you want to put it that way. Not that we're competing against each other just to stay alive in the market, so to speak, to keep your nonprofit moving forward. Funding is a more a bigger challenge. Right. So anything you can do to bolster and strengthen your organization data is a big part of that. So anyway, I love that you're providing that. So thanks for taking time to share your insights.

Sophie Blondeau (37:18)

Thank you. It's my pleasure.

Dr. Rob Harder (37:20)

Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts and wherever you listen to to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofitleadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by Donorbox Donorbox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.