Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Leadership Podcast

Episode: How to Move Beyond Short‑Term Relief to Systemic Change

Host: Dr. Rob Harter
Guest: Dr. Kurt Verbeek, Co-founder of the Association for a More Just Society (ASJ)
Date: November 17, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores how nonprofit organizations can move beyond providing short-term relief and instead pursue systemic change, using Honduras as a compelling case study. Dr. Rob Harter speaks with Dr. Kurt Verbeek, who has spent 30 years working in Honduras and co-founded ASJ to address the root causes of violence and corruption. The conversation covers ASJ's journey, organizational strategies for systemic reform, challenges faced, and relevant lessons for nonprofit leaders worldwide. Notable topics include the overhaul of Honduras' police force, the nuances of immigration and international aid, and the difference between charity and justice.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Genesis of ASJ: Recognizing the Systemic Issues

• Background Story ([05:42])
  • Kurt and his co-founders initially worked on community development (microenterprise, health, education) in Honduras.
  • They realized short-term efforts failed when larger systemic issues like corruption and violence undid their progress.
  • ASJ was born out of the recognition that "there were next to no organizations working on these structural issues that we saw every day," said Kurt ([07:24]).

2. Addressing Violence and Police Corruption in Honduras

• Nature of Violence ([08:39])
  • Much of Honduras' violence relates to drug routes from South America to the U.S.
  • In 2011-2012, Honduras had the highest homicide rate in the world (90 per 100,000 vs. U.S. at 8).
• Police Purge ([08:50]–[11:31])
  • ASJ advocated for purging corrupt police, culminating in a nationally impactful reform:
    • "They ended up firing out of 13,000 cops, they fired 6,000. And in the first two weeks they fired all of the chief of police in the whole country." ([09:18])
    • The homicide rate has dropped to 22 per 100,000; "about the same as Chicago, actually" ([10:42]).
  • ASJ's reputation for truth-telling and alliance-building helped them gain influence and create effective strategy.

3. Personal Risk and Security

• Navigating Danger ([12:20])
  • Advocating for reform made ASJ staff targets.
  • Example: "One of the commissioners, so one of them was a pastor… six guys jumped out... and started shooting at him... one of his bodyguards was killed." ([14:02])
  • ASJ's non-partisan stance, legitimacy (Christian values), and alliances offered some protection: "I just feel like Grace of God." ([15:21])

4. From Immediate Relief to Systemic Reform: ASJ's Model

• Theory of Change and Strategic Steps ([17:11])
  • Investigations: Meticulous research into root causes.
  • Alliance Building: Partnerships with respected institutions (e.g., Catholic and Protestant Churches) for legitimacy and reach.
  • Communications: Frequent press conferences and active media engagement.
  • Lobbying (Incidentia): Applying "healthy pressure" on decision-makers.
  • "We often spend six months, sometimes more investigating, like what's broken and how could we fix it." ([18:09])
  • "Build an alliance… who, if we have them at a table… will get the most respect." ([18:44])

5. Donor Communication & Short-Term vs. Long-Term Impact

• Managing Donor Expectations ([17:11])
  • Donors often seek quick results, but structural change is slow.
  • ASJ navigated this by transparent communication about long-term strategies and wins.

6. Immigration: Root Causes and Policy Nuances

• Perspective from Honduras ([21:26])
  • Most migrants aren’t fleeing immediate violence, but poor conditions.
  • Kurt: "We're trying to make Honduras a place that people don't want to leave." ([21:42])
  • Calls for a reimagined U.S. immigration system—short-term work programs and better local conditions.
  • "The system is so broken that it was overly easy to get into the US… We need talent here." ([22:34])

7. Impact of U.S. Federal Funding Cuts

• Complex Effects of Aid ([25:23])
  • Some U.S. government aid was "among our best projects… The Police Purge was funded in part by US Government funds" ([25:40]).
  • Other US-funded projects were fraught with mismanagement: "really messed up, messed up power relationships, messed up the way we were treated…" ([26:00])
  • Both international aid and the process need reform, not just funding reinstatement.

8. Justice vs. Charity (and Community Development)

• Drilling Down the Differences ([28:49])
  • Charity: "Necessary in disaster situations… handouts."
  • Community Development: "Teaching to fish."
  • Justice: "There’s corruption involved… someone else is messing up their river."
  • Memorable quote: "If you’re not making anybody mad, you’re not doing justice." ([29:59])
  • Justice work is hardest to fund—often faces the most resistance.

9. Key Publications and Resources

• Call for Justice ([31:27])
  • Co-authored with philosopher Nicholas Wolterstorff—letters about practical aspects of justice and nonprofit work.
• Bear Witness (by journalist Ross Halperin, not authored by Kurt)
  • Seven-year investigation chronicling ASJ’s impact—including the police purge.

10. Principles for Nonprofit Leaders

• Leadership Lessons ([33:28])
  • "If you want to change the world, you need a really good team."
  • Difficult, sustained alliance-building is vital for scale and protection.
  • ASJ’s model (investigation, alliance, communication, lobbying) is replicable—even for U.S. communities.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the need for systemic change:
  • "There were next to no organizations working on these structural issues that we saw every day." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([07:24])
• On police reform:
  • "They ended up firing out of 13,000 cops, they fired 6,000." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([09:18])
• On risk:
  • "I think part of it is we were smart about security and strategy. And partly, honestly, I just feel like Grace of God." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([15:21])
• On justice work:
  • "If you’re not making anybody mad, you’re not doing justice." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([29:59])
• On the difference between short-term relief and real change:
  • "We have overemphasized the first and probably the first two [charity and community development] and underemphasized the third [justice]." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([30:45])
• On team building:
  • "If you want to change the world, you need a really good team." — Quoted by Kurt Verbeek, originally from Omar Rivera ([33:28])
• On willingness to help other leaders:
  • "Be happy to help anybody out there who's interested. Give me a shout out and we'll do a little chat sometime on Zoom." — Dr. Kurt Verbeek ([34:17])

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• Background and Motivation for ASJ: [05:42]
• Understanding and Addressing Violence: [08:39]
• Honduras Police Purge Story: [09:18]
• Personal Risk and Safety: [12:20]
• ASJ’s Theory of Change (Investigate, Build Alliances, Communicate, Lobby): [17:11]–[19:56]
• Immigration Insight: [21:26]
• Funding Cuts—Real World Effects: [25:23]
• Justice vs. Charity vs. Community Development: [28:49]
• Publications (Books): [31:27]
• Leadership Lessons: [33:28]

Further Resources

• ASJ Website: asj-us.org ([35:34])
• Books:
  • Call for Justice by Kurt Verbeek and Nicholas Wolterstorff
  • Bear Witness by Ross Halperin

Conclusion

Dr. Kurt Verbeek’s journey with ASJ offers nonprofit leaders a clear, hard-won blueprint: authentic investigation, strategic alliance-building (even when hard), clear public communication, and courageous lobbying can create real, systemic change—even in dangerous and resistant contexts. His frank discussion of risk, leadership, donor relations, and the boundaries between charity, development, and justice provides rich, practical insights for anyone aiming to move their organization from short-term relief to long-term impact.