Kelly Kinsley (3:29)

Oh, I'm thrilled to be here and I'm excited to have this conversation, Rob.

Dr. Rob Harder (3:33)

Well, good. Well, I know as we were chatting before we hit record, you resonate with really the whole purpose of this podcast is to provide great resources for leaders who are in the social impact sector or leading nonprofits. And that's what you do as a leadership coach and, and what you've done for a long time. And so I thought maybe it would be good for my listeners always to get the background of my guests. You are CEO and certified leadership coach and you've made it your goal really to help visionary leaders in mission driven organizations. And specifically what you really try to aim is what I've learned anyway, is you want to help leaders achieve a deeper impact. And in the process of your work, you've actually done a lot of interviews of various leaders and you've asked them lots of questions about what, you know, makes a social impact leader effective, what barriers they bump into. And so maybe that's what we could start with, is your research of all these interviews you did tell us a bit about, about the scope of that and what was your main goal for this research?

Kelly Kinsley (4:29)

Yeah, happy to. So I have been coaching in the nonprofit sector for about 15 years and I noticed in the last about six to nine months that my clients, these leaders, were desperately struggling to make impact, struggling in a way that I had not seen before. And you know, they, they still wanted to support their teams. They still believed deeply in their mission, but they were not able to move forward with their teams in the way that they once could. And I was curious about this. So I decided to do these research interviews. I did over 40 to answer two questions. One, what is it that they are struggling against so much. And then two, how could those barriers that they were struggling against be overcome? So those. That was.

Dr. Rob Harder (5:27)

Michael, Nice. Okay, that's perfect. Okay, so let's talk about some of the most critical insights that you found by your interviews with them. What did you uncover in terms of the current leadership challenges that are facing the social impact sector and specifically these social impact leaders that you interviewed?

Kelly Kinsley (5:44)

Yeah, yeah. So what I learned from my interviews is consistent with what I had been hearing from my clients, which is there is a crisis of conflic confidence amongst leaders out there in a way that these leaders have not felt before. And as I dug into this crisis of confidence, I discovered that it was largely a result of these shifting sands that they were standing on now in terms of what to expect next, as our country is experiencing tremendous change at the federal level, which does, of course, have an immediate impact the nonprofit level and the social sector. So, you know, previously, most nonprofits had a mission that appealed to the larger general population. Right. Providing remission centered around things such as providing basic necessities like healthcare, nutrition, shelter. And then there's another subset of organizations that appeal to community issues related to supporting the arts or the environment or education. Yes. And most communities wanted to support these causes in some ways. But now, with government funding and support changing, not only is there an immediate impact on their financial systems, but there's also this crisis of confidence that they, the leaders, do not know which direction to lead their organizations in as the national economic situation remains in flux. And so the conviction and certainty that nonprofit leaders used to enjoy is now beginning to erode, and the paths they used to follow are no longer as certain.

Dr. Rob Harder (7:23)

Okay, that's interesting. So you feel like this level of uncertainty is really, really high across the board, not just in the social impact sector, but across just our culture right now that we're living in?

Kelly Kinsley (7:34)

I did. Yes. And in the research that I did, I looked not only at the social sector, but I also interviewed leaders in the public sector and in the private sector, and they, too, were facing this sense of confusion and ambiguity on which direction to take. And it was an echo of, you know, what they were hearing at the national level.

Dr. Rob Harder (7:54)

That's so interesting. Okay, so one of the things I do want to dive into, I think, for my listeners that enjoy this, is, what did you find to be. We'll start with just the three most common challenges nonprofit leaders are dealing with today. And why do you think traditional leadership approaches are no longer effective? Maybe we could start with those top three.

Kelly Kinsley (8:11)

Absolutely. So the number one challenge that they're facing is this confusion and ambiguity on what direction to take. Uncertain, unclear on where to go. That's one. Number two was a challenge of being in a mode of reactivity and firefighting, both themselves and their teams, they were seeing their teams in this, which again is not surprising. You know, when we are in times of uncertainty, we do tend to just react as opposed to feel confident enough that we can be proactive so that we were just responding to these crises. And then third, I think directly related to the first two is they were facing a challenge of exhaustion and burnout because as we know, if we are constantly reacting over and over to circumstances thrown at us, it wears us down in a way that is opposite to when we are proactively, creatively looking for the next path that we want to take. So those were the three big themes that I saw. And you know, I think, you know, I like your follow up question of how is this different now? Well, traditional approaches of motivating the team and appealing to the donor base no longer work because that's not the root of the problem anymore. Now is how to help these leaders regain their conviction and certainty that their mission is still deemed by society writ large to be worthwhile and is still deemed feasible for their teams to attain. So as I work with nonprofit leaders, we're focusing on what gives them energy, what is within their circle of influence to do so. That's what I saw.

Dr. Rob Harder (10:00)

No, that's so interesting you mentioned that. I think maybe we'll tackle, we're going to tackle each one of them. But let's go to that last one you mentioned, the third one of the burnout. That is something I hear a lot from leaders I've experienced myself, a lot of my fellow colleagues. There was a lot of burnout, I think, particularly post Covid, depending on what your nonprofit went through. That was a real issue for so many leaders. Maybe. Let's talk about that. You know, and particularly if you tie that with what you just said, if you're doubting that what you're providing is really worthwhile, that it's worth, you know, rallying people around a cause, getting donors to get behind it financially, that can be really discouraging, which that obviously leads to more burnout. Talk about some of the things that you saw work, similar trends with those who are burning out. What were some of the common things and themes that you found that led to burnout for these social impact leaders?

Kelly Kinsley (10:50)

Yeah, yeah. So it was this uncertainty of where to go. It was A heavy feeling of responsibility to keep their team buoyed and energized to do the work. And it was this, again, this crisis of confidence of doubting themselves that they could lead in this way. And you take those three factors together and that will cause burnout, especially if we don't know the end point at which things will become clear again. Right. And that leads us to just constantly be trying to improve the situation for our teams and our constituents that we serve.

Dr. Rob Harder (11:31)

Yeah. Okay, so, and we already mentioned a little bit how it differs from things in the past. So what would you say, like, if you kind of wave your magic wand, what is the desired future state that social impact leaders are really striving for in your mind? And what, why is this vision important for social impact leaders in general to have that clear vision of what we're aiming for in the first place?

Kelly Kinsley (11:54)

Yes, yes. So the desired future state that they talked about was, not surprisingly, having clarity and confidence about where to lead their teams, being able to focus and have that belief in oneself and their work. Again, they also wanted to shift away from reactivity and towards proactivity, again, not surprisingly, and move back into strategic leadership. Right. As opposed to firefighting, so that they can use that, those forward thinking leadership muscles that they had, you know, that they've been honing their whole careers and have been not been able to utilize in the last year or so. And then finally wanting to feel energized and supported by others because as we know, leadership can be lonely. And when we as a leader are trying to lead our teams and keep the motivation up and stay positive, we don't want to share with them how we are feeling, the doubts that we have, the fears that we're harboring. And so they wanted to feel supported by, by someone. Right. Whether it's their donors or their board or their team, they need to be re energized as well. So that was the desired future state that they were looking for. And you know, why is this important for the sector? You know, I think it's because so much of what nonprofits do underpins. Again, not just the basic human necessities of, you know, healthcare and shelter and food, you know, but also a sense of purpose and a sense of contributing to something larger. Because while nonprofits, just like for profits, need to make money. Right. In order to stay afloat, they also provide that triple bottom line of delivering something meaningful for our society that, that we can be proud of. And I think that is an intangible value that nonprofits offer that Sometimes we forget to acknowledge.

Dr. Rob Harder (14:09)

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Kelly Kinsley (16:09)

Yes, yes. So what I saw there was the impact on the individual within the team because whether that individual is working for a for profit team or a nonprofit team, they want to feel that they are contributing to the greater good. We've seen this in survey after survey of generations, you know, perhaps one or two younger than you and you and I, that they resonate deeply and have a very specific desire to contribute to something more. And, and I loved to see the for profit sector take a page from the playbook of the nonprofit sector and go, huh, we need to add this facet to our company to show how we are contributing to society. And so yes, you can do that, but then you need to stick with it. And I think some for profit companies are struggling to do that. And so that value is eroding and I think that's impacting their team morale.

Dr. Rob Harder (17:23)

Well, okay, let's talk about an example or two from your interviews. Is there something or somebody that really illustrates what leaders are experiencing in the social impact sector specifically, but they're maybe not sharing, they're not discussing openly that you got. My guess is because it was a safe place, maybe you picked up some information that people wouldn't necessarily share with their donors or the rest of their team or their board for that matter. Tell me about any example that you ran across that would be helpful for my listeners, many of whom are leading organizations or social impact leaders themselves. And so I'm curious what you found with your interviews.

Kelly Kinsley (18:00)

Yes. Yeah, no, happy to share. So an example comes to mind immediately. I'll call her Nancy, which is a made up name, but she works at a large nonprofit institution and she leads a division within it. And when I was talking with her, she described her situation as having a great deal of uncertainty in how to lead and how that creates a lack of joy in the work that she does. Right. The uncertainty is the drain on her joy. And that drain shows up as that challenge of acknowledging the stress that the team, that her team is going through, yet not letting them wallow in it and doing the same for herself, acknowledging the stress that she feels personally, but not letting herself wallow in it. That's a really hard balance to strike day after day after day. You know, there's also a panic that she feels. And this is right to your point. You specifically said, I would never share this with any, I would never tell anyone that I feel panic, but I do that the, that the uncertainty will continue and that it'll morph into something truly unmanageable. Right. So you can see how she can start to spin on this. But she recognizes that as a leader, she can't get into despair. Right. Despair is not an option for leaders. But there's this fear and, and a, even a sadness she felt that she couldn't be rah rah and gung ho all the time. Right. Because she just doesn't have that energy. So it was causing her to question her leadership abilities every day. And that's what then led to that crisis of confidence. So you can see how that downward spiral took her and it took many, is taking many other nonprofit leaders as well.

Dr. Rob Harder (20:04)

It's so interesting. You said earlier that the lack of clarity really can be a demotivator and actually can kind of really take people's energy to a point where they're like, why am I doing this? And I can see people either quiet quitting is a term that people are using now. Right. Or just outright leaving an organization and maybe not even saying why they left fully or clearly. Anything else from that example or others you saw where that lack of clarity really did lead to negative results. And an organization maybe not even being aware that there's a lack of clarity.

Kelly Kinsley (20:37)

Yeah. So I'll say two examples. One, just what you said where there's sort of a quiet quitting of, well, I can't, you know, I'm never going to be able to master this uncertainty that's happening right now. So why do I even try? And then also another example that I heard from many leaders was, well, it's going to change tomorrow or the next day anyways. So why am I spending all this time designing my, our strategic plan and coming up with our quarterly goals like it's, it's meaningless. I in sort of this, you know, throw up my hands mentality, which, you know, there's, there's basis for that. So that was a couple things of what I heard.

Dr. Rob Harder (21:21)

No, that's good. Okay, so as I think about my listeners, we do have a lot of CEOs, executive directors, we have development directors, board members. Are there some actionable strategies that you learned through your interview process? And of course, what you do just day in and day out as a leadership coach, any practical and actionable strategies that you would recommend and ask or encourage my listeners to really address directly. Particularly comes these challenges that are maybe holding them back in their own leadership or holding their organization back.

Kelly Kinsley (21:51)

So I just did a workshop with a team on this and shared these tools. But there are three tools that I can share today that are fairly quick to describe how you can achieve this desired future state. So the first one is something that I call chaos values. So chaos values are the values that you lean on during times of uncertainty. Now we know from decades of leadership research that when a leader leads by their values, they achieve a more impactful, authentic, effective leadership style. I would offer that within a leader's set of values, there's a subset of values that I call chaos values that we use when we are facing these times of uncertainty. What is most important to you when you don't know how to go forward? What is most important to you when your team is under stress? Helping a leader identify that subset of chaos values is one tool. Another Tool that can be very effective in helping to set a strategic direction when there is, when you're standing on these shifting sands is something called going on the balcony. So going on the balcony is a term, it was created about 20 years ago now that helps you get clarity on what you want to do next. And it's an analogy based on the theater that says sometimes as a leader, we are down on the stage, right? We are amongst our team and our players and there's, you know, a bit of chaos, there's a lot of action, there's, you know, high emotions going on and we are in the thick of it and it is good for us to be there sometimes, but not to stay there. When we start to feel overwhelmed by uncertainty or what direction to take next, we can remember to go up on the balcony. And when we are up on the balcony, that is when we are a spectator, right, we have a certain emotional remove from what is going on down on the stage. And from up on the balcony we can see, ah, yeah, I can see how this might play out, or I can see what these two or three characters need to do. So we get to a positive conclusion of this act of the play. And I can see myself down there too, and I'm looking kind of stressed. I need to retake that down a bit. So creating that agility to move from the balcony to the stage, to the balcony, to the stage, back and forth so that we get a dual perspective can help to create that long term strategic vision.

Dr. Rob Harder (24:33)

That's interesting. So you found that the pre. A person's perspective really can make all the difference in terms of how they approach their work, how they can maybe come up with creative solutions and maybe even have greater self awareness of how they're coming across to donors, other staff members, et cetera, by just looking at it from that spectator point of view and perspective.

Kelly Kinsley (24:53)

Exactly, exactly. Because when we take on that other perspective, we tend to quiet our amygdala, where our reactionary tendencies tend to live. And we engage our prefrontal cortex, where reason and rationale and logic live, which are often better elements to combine into a strategic planning process. And then the third tool that I'd offer up is something called, again my naming of it, I call it the magic delegation question. And the magic delegation question is asking yourself, what am I uniquely qualified to do? What am I uniquely qualified to do? When we ask ourselves this question, it can address burnout and exhaustion in two ways. One, it tells us what we do need to do because we are uniquely qualified to do it, and nobody else on our team can. And that means everything else can be delegated to somebody else. Right. It's a way to clear your plate so that you are focused only on what truly has to happen. It also creates for us the opportunity to develop others into leaders. Right. Because whatever we can delegate to them, it becomes an opportunity for them to step into perhaps slightly larger shoes. And that, interestingly enough, counteracts their burnout. Because if they're burned out from a feeling that they don't have agency and they're not making impact, you can give them something new to do that says, I believe in you and your ability to do this, and then they can dive into it, maybe struggle a little bit, but then eventually succeed. And then that is energy giving. So those are the three tools that I would offer up.

Dr. Rob Harder (26:41)

Okay, well, I'm thinking to my listener again that a lot of these strategies are excellent. They're very practical. Some may take some time. I think for those who maybe are really feeling like they need to urgently apply some of these strategies, how best can they make an immediate impact in terms of putting some of these things into practice tomorrow?

Kelly Kinsley (27:01)

Yes, yes. So for chaos values, they can go to a site that's true values, T R U V A L U E S, assess their values, and then pull out the ones that are what they would deem their chaos values, and then talk to their teams the very next day to say, these are the values that I believe will drive us forward this time. What do you all think? And have them look at the list, too. The staying on the balcony. You can do that. You can do that Right now. That's just a mindset. And the magic delegation question again. Make a list of all of your responsibilities and ask yourself, you know, tonight, right. Which of these am I uniquely qualified to do? And then the next morning, delegate the rest to your team.

Dr. Rob Harder (27:45)

Yeah. Okay. Well, good. This has been very, very interesting. So for my listeners who want to get to know a little bit more about you, some of the things you offer, and then maybe more about this research, where would you send them? Like, what's the best place for them to connect with you?

Kelly Kinsley (27:57)

Yeah, so the best place to connect with me is over email. Drop me a note. I'm KellyPenCircleCoaching. Com. It's Kelly K E L L Y OpenCircleCoaching.com and I am always happy to talk about what is your particular situation that you are in? You know, do these themes resonate with you or are there different ones? And I always. My intention is always to add value to every call I have. So if you're listening this and want to talk through your challenges, drop me a note. Kellyensticklecoaching.com well, excellent.

Dr. Rob Harder (28:33)

Well, thanks so much for putting time into reviewing, analyzing, interviewing, particularly people in the social impact sector. I think your insights are really right on. And I think for my listeners, again, one of my goals for this podcast really to get good content out there so people can become better leaders. And not just down the road, but like today. And so I liked your practical examples of how they can literally start leading differently today with some of the things you mentioned. So thanks Kelly for being on the show. Again, thanks for all. You're doing great.

Kelly Kinsley (28:59)

Thank you, Rob. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Dr. Rob Harder (29:03)

Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.