B (3:26)

Thanks for having me, Rob. Great to be here.

A (3:28)

Well, you've got a ton of experience with fundraising, and when this podcast airs, it's right in the middle of fourth quarter. And so I thought let's start there because that is a big deal for all nonprofits, all social impact leaders. So with decades of experience in the nonprofit sector, what have you found are the most effective strategies when it comes to social impact organizations in order to navigate the economic challenges such as inflation we've seen before? Donor fatigue certainly is a reality, but you still want to maintain that strong, consistent, sustainable fundraising effort for your organization. What are some tips to get off to start off here that you would recommend to my listeners?

B (4:04)

Yeah, Well, I think I first start out by saying you should be properly invested in all areas of the, what I call the donor pipeline. So from acquisition, cultivating, mid level major plan giving, are all of those areas invested properly? Meaning are you heavy on one area and less in another or not? So that's number one. The second is oftentimes when it feels like economic turmoil is coming, nonprofits react by cutting fundraising. You know, they'll cut like, oh, we just need to make 10% cuts across the board program. All of this and fundraising, well, fundraising is the engine that's keeping it going. So do not cut fundraising. So those organizations that we've worked with in the past that have survived through economic downturns and there's been several of them have maintained their fundraising, investment and progress. And when they do that, they weather that storm much better. Then the third area is really to make sure that you do have a strong mid and major gift program and plan giving. The top end of that donor Pyramid, if you will, that you really have that well oiled, that you have a real solid structure, a plan, that you've developed strong relationships with those donors. And you know these donors, you know their passions and interests, you know what they're interested in, your programs and projects. Because through any storm, you know which there will always be. If you have strong relationships with those donors, they will stay with you. They might have to reduce their giving for a little bit, but they will not leave. They will stay with you because they believe in the mission, they believe in what you've done. And so that would be the other area that really makes sure that you have those strong relationships.

A (6:13)

So glad you mentioned that. I had the authors of the Generosity Crisis, I should say by Brian Crimmins. There's a couple of authors for that book, but the book is called Generosity Crisis and it really does talk about a lot of things. We just started with that. There is a major donor fatigue, there's a downturn when it comes to giving to social impact organizations. It preceded Covid, but after a little bit of a spike during COVID it's gone back down to what it was trending before that, which is again downward, not good news for social impact organizations. Anyway, with your point of relationships, they would say the same thing, that it really now comes relationships. And I think this is something, I really like your approach to this because I agree it's about relationships at the end of the day, when it comes to donor relationships, fundraising and what separates those who are good at it from those who are not very good at it. In fact, you say it's called what you call relationship centered fundraising. So you really make this a core part of your fundraising strategy. So why do you believe it is so important to invest in relationships? And you know this relationship centered fundraising and maybe even now more than ever, what are the factors that are causing to make this even more of an important value to you than before?

B (7:24)

Yeah, I think what we're seeing in our sector is that direct response fundraising has become more expensive and the results have been less. And so it's more hands off fundraising. And it's still, I wouldn't say it's dead. It's still been pretty effective. However, it's just getting harder. Those organizations that have focused on building relationships with donors through mid and major gift and plan giving strategies and really invested in those, we're seeing with our clients, 2025% gains year over year. So while overall the sector is less, I think a lot of that is coming from direct response results from Major gifts and midlevel, we're seeing increases in revenue. And for example, we see we have a lot of public media stations that are clients of ours and you know, they've been going through it as well. And membership over the years has been waning and it's harder and harder to move members, you know, up and they're, they're losing members. However, over the last five years, we've been working with them to develop those mid and major gift programs. And those programs are really taking off because donors love public media that give to them, but they've never been asked to do more than hey, just send your yearly membership in for $1200 or $5000, even 10,000 every year. They've never been challenged to do anything beyond that. And when they have been, they respond. And so now is the time, more than any time, to start develop those programs because donors love you. But most of them have not really been asked face to face, would you support this particular project that I know you love? Because you've shown us you have. We haven't been doing that.

A (9:33)

So interesting. And maybe what you could do is, I know this is part of the quote veritas way and some of the style of how you go about training others to ask for money and fundraise. Can you walk us through the concept of the permission ask, as you call it? How does this approach help fundraisers feel more confident as well as more authentic when it comes to requesting support? Because you talked about that.

B (9:54)

Yes, it's called permission based asking and it's basically a structure for how to talk to donors that allows the donor to drive the conversation. So we train fundraisers, there's a whole structure of aligning with a donor, making sure that why are we meeting today? Are you agreeing that this is the reason we're meeting and then asking all kinds of questions that allows the donor to take the conversation where they want to take it, while allowing the fundraiser to make sure that they're staying within their time parameters that the donor has, being respectful of the donor, but moving that donor through and continue to ask questions. And hopefully they've done all the pre work to that meeting so the donor knows why they're meeting. It's not going to be a surprise and then really inviting the donor to do something they already want to do. But we have a structure for that and we walk them through that and the donor feels so much, or the major gift officer feels so much more relaxed because they're not trying to get the donor to do something they may not want to do. They're allowing the donor to say, yes, I want to fund this project. Yes, I would love to do that. Yes, I'll talk to you about how I want to give that gift. And then at the end of all of that, you're celebrating the donor. Whether they say yes or no, you're always celebrating the donor of what they've done and what their impact has been on the organization. So by giving that major gift officer a structure of which to do this and to allow to ask the donor if they want to move forward in the conversation, takes a lot of pressure off of the fundraiser to like, okay, when am I going to ask? It's all allowing the donor to kind of lead that for you.

A (11:58)

I love that. Focus on the donor, you know, letting them kind of lead the conversation, give you permission to share when and why you want to be there, sharing the conversation and sharing what you're doing with your organization. One of the analogies I know we've a lot of people in development world talk about that I think is apropos. Maybe it relates to what you're saying is a lot of us say you find a really good restaurant that you just absolutely love and you just can't help but tell other people about the restaurant. Right. You're just excited. You want to give them the opportunity to participate and experience what you experienced. And I feel like similar to this, where you allow the excitement that you have, but let the donor kind of tell you more, Ask questions and share what they're connected to and what they're excited about. And maybe that's where the match happens. And then it's a natural outflow, right, of well, hey, let me tell you, this is a great opportunity, but for you to invest your dollars into a good organization, well, you'll see an impact. Is that kind of the spirit you would say that you train people to have?

B (12:55)

We introduced permission based asking about six years ago and since our trainings we have this slack channel within veritas called Celebrations. And I would say 80% of our celebrations are around stories of how permission based asking not only helped the donors say yes to something they wanted to do, but it completely changed for the major gift officer. Their idea of what fundraising is all about and how much more fun it is and how they are able not only bring joy to the donor, but they themselves have joy in being able to deliver an offer to a donor that they want to do. It's incredible.

A (13:44)

Yeah, I love that. Well, let's go on to some other conversations when it Comes to development goals beyond just revenue goals and annual targets. What do you view as the true purpose of fundraising in the nonprofit sector? Just broaden that out a little bit.

B (13:56)

Yeah.

A (13:57)

What is the true purpose, would you say?

B (13:59)

Yeah, there's a dual purpose in fundraising. One is to find net revenue for to make your programs happen, and the other is to help a donor find joy in their giving and make an impact on the world. And when you do that, you will find the net revenue. So we're all about fundraising really isn't about money. It's about building relationships and helping a donor do something they really want to do. People want to give. It's your job as a fundraiser to understand what are they really passionate about and what is the need that your organization has that matches that passion. And you're the bridge that brings that together. And so you do that well, the money will follow every time. If you're chasing money, you may get a gift in the short term, but long term, you may lose that relationship.

A (15:06)

We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than Donorbox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations, and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. We'll talk a little bit more about your group you started in 2009. It sounds like you've helped hundreds of social impact organizations increase mid and major gift revenue. As you mentioned already, what key lessons or shifts, maybe even a better way to look at it, have enabled you to succeed and the people that work with you to succeed.

B (16:05)

By creating a structure and a process. Along with solid coaching and management, nonprofits will always grow their mid and major gift programs and have successful fundraisers. So this whole veritas way thing is really the structure that we come in and help develop their portfolios. We help them find the right donors to work with. We're not working with every donor. We want to know what donors actually want a relationship. So they have qualified donors and portfolios. They tier their portfolios. They have a revenue goal for every donor and a plan for every donor. And then every week, one of our client experience leaders meets with that fundraiser to essentially say, did you do what you said you were going to do. In other words, last week we said you were going to work with five of these donors, you were going to have this meeting, you were going to talk about this and that. Did you do that? And that accountability, that focus is when things take off, fundraisers are successful. They feel like somebody has their back because being a fundraiser is a frontline. Fundraiser, I would say, is one of the toughest jobs. You have to build relationships with donors, you have to build relationships internally with program staff, with finance. You have to do it all. And that's a lot of work. And there's a lot of rejection in this job. And so you need someone to come alongside of you to be your coach, to be your cheerleader, but also to keep you accountable, what you said you were gonna do. And so that's the key to the success. We had all our clients that do that, all succeed.

A (18:01)

I wanna follow up on that because I'm a consultant that gives, you know, and I just met with a client today and they have a volunteer fundraising committee. And one of the things they were processing was this, this exact question of accountability. So maybe you could speak to this. Where there's a lot of nonprofits out there that can't afford maybe even an entire full time development person, let alone a team that are on the development team, but they maybe have someone who wears multiple hats or everybody in the organization that's even paid part time or full time still has to do some development. So therefore they're leaning on volunteers to do a lot of fundraising as well. How do you incorporate accountability with your volunteers specifically without kind of running them off? Right, because they're not being paid by the organization. How do you walk that fine line?

B (18:44)

Actually, I did this with a whole volunteer board myself. Once with an organization, they had all the volunteers, they wanted to raise a certain amount of money for this fund. And what we did was all the volunteers that said, yes, we said, okay, who are the people that you're going to cultivate and solicit? And we created a plan for every one of those donors. And every week we met with that board to see how did you do. And so we treated them as if they were paid staff and held them accountable to what they said they were going to do on a volunteer basis. And these board members loved it because right up front, we said, this is how we're going to do it. You said, you want to bring in five people, you have five people. You want to raise X amount of money? Okay, let's put a plan together. How are you going to do that. And then next week we're going to meet. How far did you get? What did you do? And they went way over their goal. But more importantly, everyone had a great time doing it and felt supported. Like when we all got together, then they were saying, well, this is what I did with this donor. Oh, that's a great idea. Let me try that. So they came together as a team, but they were all held accountable to what they said they were going to do.

A (20:07)

Okay, so then how do you advise organizations to really adopt more donor centered fundraising models? Because that's not always the way people go about it. You said it earlier, and a lot of it is just hands off. Direct mail perhaps, or other ways, or just lots of social media, but not a lot of engagement with the donor. What practical changes are needed, would you say, to create lasting donor relationships from what you've seen?

B (20:30)

Well, there's practical ways and then there's a philosophical way. And I want to start with a philosophical because I think the practical will follow if you believe in the philosophical, and that is this. That. Do you believe donors are also part of your mission, in other words? I believe there is more than just one thing that your mission is whatever it is that you want to do to change the world. You know, that's how we usually think of. That's the nonprofit's mission. And everyone else around it is just trying to do that. And so that's when you look at donors, if you look at it in that way, as a means to an end. And so all you're trying to do is get the money to get to the so you can carry out the mission. But if you actually think the donor is part of your mission. So if a donor is trying to help you do this now, you have an obligation to that donor to help them not only understand the impact they're making with their gifts, but to find joy in their giving through you. And so if you have that philosophy, then you're going to say we're going to have systems in place to thank the donor really well. And we're going to have an infrastructure in place with our program team to know how to report on impact. We're going to have plans for our donors to tell them that we love them and care for them and cultivate them and challenge them to do more, because they can and they want to. But you have that ethos. But if you have that ethos about donors are our mission, all the practical things will fall into place because that's what's driving all of it.

A (22:11)

Yeah. Oh, I like that. That's good. Okay, now let's talk about barriers. What's some of the biggest barriers that you've seen when it comes to implementing comprehensive mid level and or major gift strategies? And then how can social impact leaders really overcome these barriers and build a healthier giving pipeline?

B (22:27)

Oh, gosh, there's a lot of barriers that we put up as nonprofits, but I would say some big ones. This just came up recently. Someone wrote me who's a development director and she said, I'm starting a mid level program, but my direct response team doesn't want us to do this because they're going to lose revenue. So my direct response team's KPI is that they've got to bring in $8 million this year. But if we start a mid level program, we're going to take some of that revenue, not the donors, of course, because the donors would stay in direct response, but also because they're now being managed under the mid level umbrella. That's 1.6 million now going to move over to mid level and the direct response team saying, hey, if you do that, we're going to have less revenue. A barrier here is you have the wrong KPIs in the sense that the KPI for direct response is not only revenue, but how many donors can you move into mid level? Give them an incentive. We see this all the time, that we create these barriers of not incentivizing each of the departments to move donors through that pipeline as easy as possible. So we create these things like, oh, I don't want to give up our donors. No, they're not your donors. They're the organization's donor. And if you think about it, you're preventing donors from giving more because you're afraid you're going to lose revenue. So that's a big barrier. A lot of other barriers we see about mid and major gifts is when an organization has a membership program. So membership, you know, is a great strategy for acquisition and cultivating donors. However, what happens over time is that that membership strategy becomes a department and then they kind of wall off their area, sometimes physically in an office, membership over here, philanthropy over here. And they don't think about, well, wait a minute, what if donors want to give a $10,000 gift and well, we don't want to give that person up. No, the whole idea is to move them through that. You wouldn't believe how many organizations think like this. They got the. Because their KPIs are messed up and they just, over time they're just thinking about their department and they forget about the donor journey. Right. So those are barriers that we see happen for mid and major gifts. When you're starting a program or they've had a program and direct response doesn't want to give them up. We even see mid level saying, oh, I don't want to give up donors. Are you kidding? One of your big metrics should be what percent of your donors every year are moving into major gifts and be rewarded for that. You know, then you would see more movement like that.

A (25:18)

Oh, that's a great scenario. If you were coaching then or consulting with a social impact organization and they had this exact issue where they were starting to silo some of their donors and become very kind of focused on their own department. What kind of advice would you give them? How would you coach them through becoming more unified in this process?

B (25:36)

Yeah, here's what we do. We physically get them in the room together. So a lot of times organizations are just starting mid level programs. That's the best opportunity to get your direct response team and major gifts and plan giving all together in one room. And we physically get them together and we talk about this issue. What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to do for a donor? Let's think about the donor's journey and how do we make it as easy as possible for them to give to their heart's content? How would we change what we're doing today? And then that's when the conversation, well, our KPIs say we have to grow every year. We say, what if we change the KPI to be how many people can we move out of our program? Oh, okay. That changes everything. And so it's a matter of actually getting folks in the room and agreeing, taking, trying new business rules, new ways of doing things in order to help the donor do what they want to do.

A (26:38)

I like that shift to focus on the donor. Again, it's the donor's journey. That's a great phrase and a really important concept. I think you're absolutely right with that. Well then, as I look about, as I look at the future and all the changing landscape when it comes to development this year, of course, in the American context, we've had all these huge cuts with federal funding and state funding. So there's a lot of things that are changing for you then and the work that you do, what essential shifts do you think the social impact sector needs to really make today in order to really build a stronger, more donor centered fundraising environment worldwide for tomorrow?

B (27:14)

Well, you know, we Often talk about, you got to diversify your revenue sources, right? We've had a lot of organizations who relied a lot on government funding, and it's all dried up. Now's the time to start focusing on the individuals, corporations, foundations, plan giving. I cannot tell you how many organizations, Rob, have not really started a plan giving program. And these are large organizations, millions of dollars coming in. And they have very. They have one major or one plan giving officer, and they're barely scratching the surface. Those organizations that 15 years ago really invested in plan giving, I mean, they're just rolling. Money's coming in. They don't even know where it's all coming in from. But it happened because they made a concerted effort 15 years ago to make this happen. They had the vision and they put the resources into it to know, okay, long term, we got to invest in this. And so what we're finding across the board is that individuals are stepping up. We talked about public media, those public media donors. I mean, major giving right now in public media is way up because donors see it, you know, it's in the news all the time. And donors say, what do you need? You're now $2 million out. How can we help?

A (28:37)

That's a great example where I've heard that too, that because of the cut in funding, media organizations specifically are getting huge donations now. That happens throughout, you know, just various things will happen with crises situations or emergency situations. How do you move an organization, like I say, a public media company that right now is doing well, but that's going to dissipate after maybe a year and people are going to go back to normal and the urgency is not as high. How do you help train these organizations to plan for the future and really have more of a sustainable model so they don't get to the same place where they get stuck?

B (29:11)

It's very simple. It's building those relationships. So we've been working with a number of them for about five years. They're all set up for these bigger gifts and how to cultivate them from now on. But those organizations. So then the media companies that haven't been, they're using this as a catalyst to say, okay, we have to have a structured major gift program because it's just like a disaster gift. You know, it comes in and then you're right. After it all goes away, then the donor goes away. No, we gotta engage this donor now, get to know who they are and build that relationship, because that's what will sustain you no matter what kind of crisis or whatever's. Happening if that. If you really know those donors, they will be with you and they'll stick with you.

A (30:01)

I like that. And do you have a sense, like I'm thinking real practically now, how much time should they literally have face to face with donors? Like do you have a percentage in your mind or averaged in a week or a month of where they're really doing one on one face to face, you know, interactions with donors?

B (30:16)

Well, what we'd like to have is around 30 to 35 meaningful connections a month. Now, a meaningful connection might not be face to face because some donors don't want face to face. You need to meet them where, how they want to interact with you. So it could be an email, a meaningful connection could be a text. If you have a donor who's a great texter. We've had donations come in at 200, $300,000 through text.

A (30:43)

That's amazing. Wow. That is.

B (30:46)

Wow. Okay, so I'm not so concerned about how many face to face. I am more concerned about meaningful connections throughout because we know that if you can do that, the results will happen. And if you have a plan for every donor, you know exactly what's going to happen. You know that there's going to be two face to face a year with a donor and when it's going to happen and all of that. So that's key too is to have a plan for every one of your donors so you know exactly what you're doing with them. And the bottom line is for us is not all these metrics. Those are important, but not so much as at the end of the day, we'll have to ask the fundraiser, did you work your plan? And we know that if you worked your plan, nine times out of 10 you make or exceed your revenue goals because that plan is donor centered. It's all about creating solid customer donor service. All of that happens through the year. And we know that they work their plan or not because we talk with them every week. That's the key.

A (31:57)

I love that phrase, meaningful connection. And I and but that could take the form of an email, a text, a face to face. Actually that's a really good recommendation to everybody listening because you're right, there are some people that perhaps don't want to or can't because they don't live in the town you're the organization's based in. But they love the organization, they still give. And so that's a great challenge and encouragement to everybody who's listening. So with that, for my listeners who are hearing you and want to find a little bit more information perhaps about you, but also about Veritas Group. Tell them where can they find out more information?

B (32:27)

They can go to our website. We have everything there. It's veritasgroup.com and one of the things, Rob, we always believed in from the very beginning was trying to give away as much as we could free.

A (32:40)

Oh, nice.

B (32:40)

So if you go on our website, we have a resource page. We have 25 different white papers. Nice. We have our podcasts. We have over 1500 blog posts that we've created, you know, about everything, about major gifts and it's there for them to download and to take in. We also have a Veritas Group Academy, which is our training online training platform. So we're always doing new courses on fundraising and that everyone in the world has access to. So those are ways to engage us.

A (33:15)

That's so great, Jeff. Thanks for offering that for nonprofits. As you know, the the vast majority of nonprofits are well under a million dollar budget annually and so they don't have the funding to get all of this and purchase it. So having free resources, that is huge. That is such a big help to the sector. So thank you. That's a big deal. Well, again, thanks for sharing your insights on the show today and to my listeners, thanks for always for tuning in today. That's all for the nonprofit leadership Podcast. We will see you next week. Thanks again, Jeff. Appreciate it.

B (33:43)

Thank you.

A (33:45)

Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interview of past guests, all on my website, nonprofitleadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by Donorbox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.