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Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
Is Becoming a Nonprofit the Solution to the Struggles Facing Major News Organizations Today?
00:36:06
Monika Bauerlein In this compelling episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, host Dr. Rob Harter sits down with veteran journalist Monika Bauerlein, CEO of the Center for Investigative Reporting (CIR),
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- [00:02]
A
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show and it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I'm Rob Harder, your host. So today we're going to talk all about the future, both major newspapers as well as just broadly speaking, media organizations. Now, a lot of us know about the big buyout of the Washington Post, for example, by Jeff Bezos. Or maybe you didn't know, but Steve Jobs, widow Laureen Jobs took a majority stake in the Atlantic a few years ago. Of course, everyone knows about Elon Musk buying out Twitter a while ago and changing it into X. Is that the future of major media organizations? Or specifically when it comes to newspapers, whether it be local or national, what is the trend line? And is there a different way? Is there a different model? Some argue that moving newspapers specifically, and media organizations in general, to becoming nonprofits may be an answer that helps the organization, say, truer to its mission. One of those proponents is my guest today. Her name is Monica Bauerlein, and she recently helped to oversee the merger of Mother Jones and the center for Investigative Reporting. In fact, now she is the CEO of the center for Investigative Reporting. And we're going to talk all about this, like, what was the move to being a nonprofit or becoming a nonprofit? What advantages has that been? Then we're going to talk to her about more broadly speaking. Does she recommend other social impact organizations merging with other organizations in order to have greater impact or greater sustainability ability? It's interesting we talk about that because I've had a couple people on the show before talking about the importance of mergers in their mind, particularly after post Covid reality. A lot of nonprofits hit hard times. They lost a lot of donors. They couldn't keep up with the changing environment and the changing needs of their organization. And when you couple that with a drop in giving, they seriously had to consider either closing their doors or merging with other nonprofit organizations in order to become sustainable and actually continue to do the good things that they started doing. And she's got some ideas and suggestions for those of you who may be thinking about that. Then we're also going to just talk about leadership in general, like what her leadership experience has been, any recommendations she has for executive directors and CEOs of social impact organizations of what has made her successful over these last many years. So it's just a really fascinating conversation. As always. So glad that you're tuning in now onto my interview with Monica. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Well, welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. Today. I've got a special guest who has been in the news arena, journalism arena for a long time. She is truly a veteran. Monica, it's great to have you on the show today. Thanks for joining us.
- [03:24]
B
Thanks so much, Rob. It's a delight being with you.
- [03:26]
A
You bet. Well, there's a lot to cover today. You know, there's a, as we were talking before we hit record, there's a lot of changes going on in some of these national newspapers that we see, plus journalism as a whole media. There's just a lot of changes coming along, you know, the pike, so to speak. And so you're right in the middle of that. So we're going to get to what you're doing and some of the work that you've continued to do. So first, just for my listeners, so you're the CEO for the center for Investigative Reporting, and you've been in the investigative reporting world, like I said, for quite some time now. And recently you wrote and published an article in Inside Philanthropy that was interesting. It's about the current threat to remove the tax exempt status of certain nonprofits. And in fact, because of your experience, again with Mother Jones, that's one of the organizations that you support. Of course, way back in the 80s, they nearly lost their nonprofit status. So I'm sure it's a little bit of deja vu for you. So maybe that's a great place to start for my listeners is talk a little bit about what happened back in the 80s. It was a long time ago and how did it turn out? Like what happened exactly.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah, it's a fun story in as much as it ended well. And this was obviously much before my time, but I thought I would go back and look at excavate those old files because people are really thinking about what kind of power does the state and especially the federal government have to come after nonprofits. So the center for Investigative Reporting, just for a little bit of context, is the Envelope, so to speak, for two major nonprofit journalism brands. One is Mother Jones magazine, which some of your listeners may know. And the other is the Reveal radio show and podcast, which airs on many, many public media stations around the country. And so many of your listeners may also be familiar with it, since we're on a podcast. If they aren't, check it out in your podcast. Mother Jones magazine was a nonprofit going way back to its founding in 1976. And by the early 1980s, it was actually the largest magazine of its kind in the country. There have been nonprofit journalism entities for a while, but they used to be few and far between. National Geographic comes to mind at some others. But back at that time in the 70s, I think, was the first moment when people started to recognize that corporate journalism could not really be relied on to go after all the stories that needed to be gone after. In particular, for example, magazines were primarily getting their revenue from tobacco and car advertising. And so there was not a whole lot of incentive to go after the bad things that those companies were doing. And so that's one of the things that Mother Jones set out to do. So, you know, fast forward about five years, this kind of investigative journalism gets a lot of traction. There are hundreds of thousands subscribers to this magazine. And there comes a point, this actually started in the last months of the Carter administration when the IRS just sort of sends a routine audit letter, hey, you know, we need some of your documentation. Many organizations have gone through that, and so they sent the information in. And in the meantime, the Reagan administration takes power, and things sort of start to take a different turn. The requests become a lot more aggressive, and the irs, to make a long story short, finally moved to take away the nonprofit designation for Mother Jones on the basis that this was actually a profit making enterprise and was basically, surely making money hand over fist doing investigative journalism. So that was really challenging for the organization. It was still a young organization. They were, in fact, not making money hand over fist. They were losing hundreds of thousands a year, in part because they were investigating the very companies that would be paying for advertising in many magazines. Number two, your community, if you're doing work that's valuable for your community, will rally to you to defend yourself in a situation like that. We've seen actually studies that in a case where a nonprofit were to lose its designation, a lot of people would probably continue supporting it because people are much more motivated. Many people are more motivated by the mission than they are by the tax deduction. Obviously, that's still not something that a nonprofit is going to want to test. But I think just as we saw recently with public media, when the Trump administration went after the Corporation for Public Broadcasting funding and a lot of radio stations lost that CPB funding, communities rallied to make up for that shortfall. We don't know how that's going to play out in the long term, but it is an encouraging sign.
- [08:27]
A
What's interesting you talked about, there's a lot of groups, like you said, that are perhaps getting threatened with losing their nonprofit status. And then when it comes to news organizations, we've heard lots of reports about media companies, papers restructuring, going out of business altogether or becoming non profits. So let's talk a bit about that because there's been decades of online advertisers who have invested their money in social media and search engines rather than newspapers and magazines now. And yet for you, you've led a nearly 50 year old nonprofit news outlet. It's still here, it's growing. It sounds like which that says a lot about something you're doing is working. Obviously you already mentioned you not only produce Mother Jones, but the radio show and the podcast. As you mentioned, the nonprofit model of journalism is a different approach. And so I wanted to talk about that because some people would argue maybe it's more sustainable for journalism in general. In fact, there's some actual large media companies that have moved that direction in papers, for example, Chicago, sometimes the Salt Lake Tribune. Could you tell us a bit more about the benefit, would you say from nonprofit news organizations and how their prospects compared to say, corporate owned outlets?
- [09:33]
B
Yeah, if we back up a little bit. Many of us grew up at a time when most of the news that we got came to us from for profit entities. There was this actually fairly brief period when newspapers, magazines, tv, radio stations had sort of a monopoly on advertising. If you wanted to reach people, you had to pay media organizations to place your ads. And so as a result, these media organizations were really profitable and were actually able to maintain a news operation that was not in itself making money. You know, I mean, quality news has never been profitable. It's not something that you make money with. But they were able to do that because they were making so much money on the advertising with the sports section, with the classifieds, with the housing section. You know, you remember all those pieces of the newspaper that would land on your doorstep. And pretty much by the early 2000s, that model was falling apart. Advertising dollars were moving online. Google and Facebook came around and sucked up the vast majority of that money. Doesn't mean that for profit media dried up. And went away, but it really struggled. And you see that in some of these corporate owners that started buying up local newspapers, local television stations, and what they went after was those news operations that were never really profitable but that the local owners had allowed to continue to exist. And you know, then there's just this period of slashing and burning where a newspaper in a major city will go from 150 people in the newsroom to 15 and then to 10. Because the advertising and the subscription dollars that they are also continuing to bring in are only maintaining so much news if you also want to throw up a profit for the parent corporation. So the nonprofit model basically confronts the fact that quality journalism is a public good. It's not really a profit making enterprise. And it says let's focus on the public good. Let's deliver this reporting, this fact check, truth telling, reporting that a community needs and the community will support it instead of advertisers that have very different motivations and that again primarily are off paying for Facebook and Google advertising. Anyway, what you see today is that in addition to all of this for profit outlets are also much more subject to political pressure.
- [12:15]
A
Yeah, it's so interesting. You're right. When you're a nonprofit and your community supported, it does give you freedom. And I know that. Related to this podcasting, ironically, we're on a podcast, right? And I've been doing it for a long time and I love podcasts as a way to have just direct communication. I've heard one of the reasons, not the only of course, but one of the reasons why podcasts are just exploding in popularity is for a similar reason where you just have a lot of freedom, kind of do this on your own for or just a collection of people. It's not necessarily, you know, maybe outside of the really, really large podcast, there's lots of freedom to just communicate directly to people, not through some advertisers and or a corporation or whatever that owns you. So it sounds like it's a similar situation with now your organization. In fact, let's just talk about that a little bit. You mentioned you merged and you've brought together a lot of different entities under one umbrella now that you're the, the CEO. CEO for the center for Investigative Reporting. Tell us a little bit more about what motivated the merger. It sounds like it because of reality of where things were going financially, but also the freedom to be able to do journalism in the way you always felt like you wanted to stay true to. It sounds like you've been doing this for 18 months. How's it going? Are there suggestions for other nonprofits in the sector that maybe want to do the same thing? And this is also interesting because I've had a lot of people on the show talk about this. When it comes to now we're talking broadly speaking, in the social impact sector, after Covid, a lot of nonprofits, a lot of social impact organizations were considering merging because. Same thing for similar reasons. They were just. Their donations were drying up, less donors were giving to them. Sometimes they had more work to be done, more people needed their services, but they had less money to work with. So they looked for collaborators where they could kind of merge and maximize what they did have in order to kind of continue to either have the same impact or even a bigger impact by teaming up with other nonprofits. Anyway, so with that background, tell me more about the merger that you have had. How's it going? You've been 18 months into it. Give us an update on that.
- [14:06]
B
You said it, Rob. That was really very much the motivation is, you know, we are all about the mission. And if we're all about the mission, if we really care about the things that we're trying to get accomplished, then should we be thinking outside of our sort of organizational identity and maybe our ego as, you know, being affiliated with this organization for this, you know, in. In this exact configuration, should we be thinking about doing something different that makes us more able to deliver on the mission? In our case, it was, you know, here are two organizations that focus on investigative reporting. One that has real strengths in print, web, digital, social media. The other that has tremendous strength in radio, podcasting and documentary film that looks like a marriage made in heaven. If what you're after is reaching the broadest possible audience, serving people with truthful information wherever they happen to be getting it, and on top of that, you know, dedicating the most possible resources to the work and the mission rather than duplicating infrastructure. I have become a huge advocate for mergers. I know it's not the solution in every case, but I think when you think about how hard it is and how much money and psychic effort goes into maintaining a standalone organization, finding a great cfo, finding a great admin team, doing all the charitable compliance, making sure you're correct, you're on the right side of the law, being audit ready, all that incredibly important infrastructure, if you can share that and contribute more of your scarce resources to the mission, the only thing that really would stop you from doing that is again, being caught up in your ego and your particular organizational configuration. I would say I have talked to more organization leaders in the last two years who say, yeah, merger actually seems like a really cool, cool idea. I have a potential partner in mind, but my board would never go for that. You know, some of my leadership team are afraid of what it would mean for their personal jobs. And I think at a moment like this, we're really called on to be bigger than that.
- [16:34]
A
That's a great point. And again, moving out of maybe the news focused sector for a second and just talking about nonprofit social impact organizations merging together. I actually have a, it's a good friend of mine now and he merged basically he's the CEO, I should say, of a merger. I think it's now up to five. There's five organizations that came together in the Lake Tahoe area, all humanitarian, community orientated nonprofits that all just could be better together. And he talks through the process of how difficult that's been actually. But it's worked and they're doing amazing work and they are doing more sustainable work because they have come together. But one of the biggest issues was you just mentioned either, you know, I think initially board members were like, well, who, okay, maybe, maybe we could do this. And are our donors for our individual nonprofit going to be as excited as a merger and the large group setting, who's going to be the leader of this? Who's going to emerge to be the executive director or CEO? Did you have some of the similar conversations when it came to staff structure and then who landed in the position of obviously you ended up being the CEO, but tell me about that because I think that is, is probably the fear for a lot of people that why they don't go forward with the merger. Is that exact. You said it. Ego is probably part of it for sure, but it's also just like I think it may blow up what I have already and I don't want to lose what I have that's positive, so let's not take that risk. So what would you say to someone like that who's maybe worried about that happening and things kind of exploding and, and not going as well as it has with you?
- [17:57]
B
Yeah, those concerns are real. And in fact I was, I was truly surprised. I had never done something like this before. I was truly surprised early on when we first talked to some of our closest supporters, some of our key allies. The first question out of everybody's mouth was who is going to end up leading? And that had not really occurred to me as the primary question, but what they knew that I didn't know, was that that is often a hangup. So in our case, we were really fortunate in that Robert Rosenthal, who led the organization that we partnered with, was committed to helping the merger happen, but not to himself being the leader after it closed. So he and I were just really of a mind. And likewise for myself, frankly, if it meant getting the merger completed and me not ending up as the leader, that was. That would have been totally fine. That's not really ultimately what we're here for in nonprofit organizations. If we were, I don't think we would be working in nonprofits, but it can be anxiety inducing. And so one of the things I learned is actually you need to just confront that head on right out of the gate and have those conversations, have that answer ready to go, because people ask it immediately. And the same is true for boards. In our particular case, we took the step of inviting all the members of both boards to join the new board, and most of them did. Okay. We ended up with a pretty large board, but it's a great group of people. We just have to learn how to work as a fairly large group of folks. You know, 26 non state staff board members. Those are things that can be overcome. But again, we had to have that conversation. Is everybody going to come in? If everybody's not going to come in, who would make the decision about who's going to come in? There has to be a huge amount of trust, and if you can't get to that trust, it's probably going to fail because you can never build in enough safeguards to really make sure that those. If there are folks who think, well, what you're really trying to do is get one over on me and, you know, destroy this beautiful organization that I've been a part of. There's no amount of contract writing and no amount of structure that can really address that.
- [20:24]
A
Well said. I think you're absolutely right on that. Absolutely. Well, let's talk more back to the media kind of focus of your work. My listeners for this podcast work for a wide range of different social impact organizations. But nearly all of them, I would say, are trying to really raise awareness about their organization. Right. They're trying to tell stories, stories, attract new supporters and donors. And key to that really is utilizing media, right? Whether it be tv, radio, podcasts, new PA newspapers, online outlets. Right. Some organizations are small. They may not have a dedicated staff to do that. They may not have enough money in their budget per se, but they really want to tell about their upcoming fundraising event. They really want to tell a story about some life changes that happened because of their mission. Can you offer some insights to our listeners when it comes to any of sense suggestions of how they can may partner with news organizations, either local ones in their community, national ones like yours, what might be their short term goals versus their long term goals and maybe speak to budget too of does, you know, maybe it doesn't have to be as expensive as they think it may. So could you speak to that?
- [21:23]
B
I think you said it Rob. You use, you use the word tell the story of their organization. I think that's what people are really wanting to think about, not necessarily even whether that means getting the story out in the news media or on social media or among the people that they serve. It's really about how do we tell the story of this organization. And everybody is a storyteller. Leaders of an organization, staff at an organization, people being served by an organization are all storytellers. So you want to I think first think about do those people have what they need to tell the story? Do the people that you're serving have what they need to say to somebody else? Hey, I had contact with this great organization and they helped me in this way. Do the leaders have what they need to represent the organization? And then whatever you do with the news media will flow from that. One sort of particular tip about news media is journalists like to tell stories about stuff that is happening and not so much about stuff people are saying. So you want to find a story of a thing that is happening. Either lives being changed is really powerful, a trend line a tremendous success. Those are things that are happening. You saying I have this announcement is not always so compelling. There are other ways to get that story out. There's ways to get a press release out. There are ways to get something out on social media. But the bar is frankly not that high and it's not that intimidating. I would say the one last tip I would offer for working particularly with local news media, but it applies to national news media as well, is you are most likely somebody who follows news about the area that you work in. So you already know which news outlet, which reporter is covering. The type of work that you do. That's the person that you want to approach. And if you tell that person, usually their information is public in some way, their email is posted in some way. There's never a bad time to reach out to somebody like that and either say here is a thing that is happening. That is really cool pool that my organization is involved with. But that's not the primary story. The Primary story is always here is a thing that is happening or just to say, if you ever cover this area that I work in, I'm happy to be a resource, give me a call. Journalists need sources, they need experts, they need people to weigh in on things. So that can be a two way exchange that can be really productive.
- [24:13]
A
Well, I like your emphasis on. I think you're right. Nonprofit social impact organizations, they really want to tell their story. Some are better than others at telling their story. But having a collaborator, having a media outlet, having a person who covers these kinds of things normally for their news organization, having that contact I think is so important and then continuing to do it in a way. In other words, telling the story better and better over time, that's just a really effective way. It sounds like for you to be able to have maybe some help from a media person who can help them shape even their story would be great in the sense of just being able to be clear and what the story is all about. We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than Donorbox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. speaking of that, there are a lot of people, not just in the news side of things, but when it comes to the social impact sector as a whole. There's been a lot of government cuts. You know, a lot of grants have been cut lately. This year has been very difficult for many who relied on heavily on federal grants or even state grants. So for those organizations, I understand that you've actually are offering some help for those organizations you like offer a range of services to fellow non profits that are just in the that kind of bind where they used to rely on this funding that is now completely cratered. Tell us about what inspired you to start this initiative. Number one, how's it going? How are you finding clients? And then are the services you provide meant just for social impact news organizations or do you provide them for other types of organizations that share similar challenges?
- [26:17]
B
This is a work in progress for us that goes back actually to before this current round of funding cuts. Because frankly, in nonprofit media, being tight on resources has been part of the landscape forever. I mean, this is true for nonprofits in general.
- [26:33]
A
True.
- [26:34]
B
So also in nonprofit media, we have an ecosystem where there are a lot of new players. There are some organizations like ours that are 50 years old, but there are many, many startups that have really come into being in the last 20 years or so. And still every year there are new ones popping up. You probably have one in your community or your area of interest. And what we found was that we got a lot of requests and questions for how do you handle things like your financials and your charitable compliance? How do you handle the kind of accounting that's required in a nonprofit? How do you handle setting up a membership program if you're publishing actual print product? There are not that many people who have ever done that. So we were getting a lot of these types of requests, and eventually we started offering it as a service because not a lot of people are. There are many, many firms, obviously, that provide nonprofit accounting and all sorts of services. But where we find that our sweet spot is being we operate a nonprofit. We work with all these challenges day to day, so we can give advice and provide a service from the depths of what everybody else is going through as well. Most of the people we have partnered with for, we call it CIR Media Services, and as the name implies, it's been primarily nonprofit and independent media organizations. But we just have started conversations with organizations outside of the media field, and the challenges are really very much the same. So we welcome any inquiries or questions from organizations that think that this might be a good fit for them.
- [28:24]
A
Well, this is a leadership podcast. And then we talk a lot about leadership, because I think really at the core of every good organization is leadership. Good leadership. And you've been leading collectively, Mother Jones and Center for investigative reporting for 10 years now. Of course, you've been serving even longer, but you've really been leading the organization for that long. And by the way, it sounds like you're about ready to mark a 50th anniversary in 2026, which that's huge. Congratulations to everybody there. I mean, any organization has been going around for 50 years and have stayed true to the mission. That's a big accomplishment for sure. So for you, talk about your leadership style and your leadership maybe impact your approach to leadership, particularly those who are either new in a role of executive director or CEO of their social impact organization. What kind of advice would you give them based on your experience of where you've been leading the last several years?
- [29:13]
B
Thanks for the kind words. It is really exciting to Come up on our 50th anniversary. I would say the first thing I would offer particularly to newer leaders is everybody has imposter syndrome. If you don't have imposter syndrome, that's actually probably a little bit of a problem. You might be too confident because it is very intimidating, and it naturally puts you in a position of questioning, am I ready for this? Am I right for this? And the fact that people chose you and believe in you doesn't mean that you don't also know that you have some gaps. So that's okay. Those gaps are some of them are going to stay there forever. There are some things that I am just never going to be very good at. So number two is you got to find yourself a great team and really lean into the team providing those things that you're not very good at. It's tempting sometimes to want to surround yourself with people who are similar to you, who have the same strengths that you do, but what you're really needing to do is compensate for the strengths that you don't have. So just as a really basic example, I'm somebody who's optimistic in nature. I think things are going to work out. I need people on the team who are more or less half empty, who can look around the corner and see, what if this goes wrong? What if that goes wrong? I would say many, many leaders who are not coming from a fundraising training are really terrified of fundraising. I was. Everything in our upbringing prepares us not to be asking people for money. That's not a thing that you want to do. And so it takes a while to learn that you're not actually asking for money. You're asking for people to include you in the philanthropy that they are doing anyway. So my advice would be a donor who is willing to walk you through that process of how they think about it, who's maybe willing to role play with you. I had one of our donors and board members do that with me, and at one point she said to me, I'll never forget that. She said, I do this professionally. Giving is a job for me. You're giving me an opportunity to make a decision about whether to support this work that you do and feel good about it. That totally changed how I looked at it. So you need to find those people who can help you get over your hangups. The last thing I would say is you need some peers to keep you sane. It's really, really helpful to just have informal friendships with other CEOs that you can vent to, that you can learn from that. You can just sort of be reminded that everybody has the same problems and nobody has an obvious solution. You're not the only one struggling with this thing. And actually a little bonus piece, particularly in an ED or CEO position, you are no longer just the person that you are. You're also this avatar of the leader. And so people will project things on you and that's okay. People will be mad at you because they're mad at authority. People will sometimes be too deferential to you because you have that title that's not about you personally. That's just sort of the role that you fill and that you carry with you now.
- [32:36]
A
Thanks for sharing your insights in your own leadership journey there. I guess maybe I close with saying, going back to this, I don't know if you call it a trend, but certainly what you're in the midst of and there's other media organizations doing this, newspapers specifically. Do you feel like there'll be more major newspapers or even local newspapers moving more towards a non profit model or do you feel like for some the corporate support and financial backing of a large organization or person like Jeff Bezos buying the Washington Post, or is that more the trend? What do you see kind of in the future when it comes to national media, media and or local media specifically around newspapers and, and I guess online media?
- [33:13]
B
Well, I'm not going to get too deeply into what's happening at the Washington Post, but I would say is Jeff Bezos, like many of the other very rich people who have bought media organizations, have learned that you cannot make a profit in this field with quality journalism. That's ultimately not going to happen. There are modest exceptions. There's a certain trench of journalism that is directed at a particular audience that can pay for it, that can trade publications that can sometimes work. But by and large quality community serving journalism is not going to be a profit making enterprise, full stop. So I would say I hope that more organizations either make the full transition to being nonprofits because that is going to save the quality community serving journalism or find owners. And there are some examples of this. For example, the Star Tribune in Minneapolis St. Paul where I used to live, where an owner will say, I don't need you to make a profit for me, but I don't want to lose money either. That is possible. It's as struggle but it's possible.
- [34:27]
A
So a break even model is more doable. Sounds like. Okay, well it's been such an interesting conversation. So for people who listen to this, who want to find out a little bit more about what you do your center there, where would you send them? How could they find out more about you?
- [34:39]
B
Visit us@motherjones.com, revealnews.org, any day now. We will also have a site up for the parent organization, cir.org, but for now Mother Jones and Reveal, where you can also sample our fantastic journalism that the team produces every day are your destinations and then you can find me on those websites. Reach out to me, reach out to the rest of the team. We would be really excited to hear from you.
- [35:08]
A
Well, Monica, thanks for being on the show and thanks for sharing your leadership insights and strategy insights as well. It's been interesting conversation.
- [35:14]
B
Thank you so much Rob.
- [35:15]
A
It's been delightful and thank you listeners. Thanks for tuning in and we will see you next week. Hey friends. Well I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leaders leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.